Minions with Minions [3.5e]

[Ponce]

Fellow playgrounders, I have a vision. I see a vast army of skeletons, a legion of casual indifference united under a ghastly banner.

How does one accomplish this?

Leadership, of course! Take leadership, and have all your followers be Human Clerics (channeling negative energy, of course). Spend their feats on improved turning. Thus, they now can each Command three skeletal warriors, and that is for the level one clerics, of which you will probably have dozens. Result? Hundreds of additional HD of undead. Handing out scrolls of Animate Dead also allows them to take advantage of the 4 HD of undead / CL each of them gains.

What does that mean? Battle squads of a handful of undead lead by their own cleric, all following your orders. Maxing leadership gives you HUNDREDS of such squads.

All of this can be increased by also taking Undead Leadership, and/or further amplified by taking Orc Warlord. And, of course, this is all in addition to whatever undead are under your own, personal control by means of whatever undoubtedly class you have.

My question is, how can you push this even further? Are there any relatively inexpensive ways to increase the number of undead each of your followers can have?

[The Dark Fiddler]

1) Get undead that turns victims into self.
2) Set loose in village.
3) ???
4) Profit

[sofawall]

Dread Necromancers.

[jiriku]

Command a mohrg. Work out a contract with a local kingdom whereby you handle the execution of the condemned. Use the mohrg to kill them. In 1d4 days, they rise as zombies under its control. There is no cap on the number of zombies a mohrg can animate and control. Your only limit is your available supply of living people for it to murder.

[Copacetic]

You could very easily create a large number of undead by killing something via negative levels (See also; villager). When it rises as a ghoul, set it upon a populus (See also; village). Ghouls creating ghouls, all under your control.

[Ponce]

Dread Necromancers.

They don't get to command extra undead until 8th level. Charnel touch is useful but I think clerics are better to have overall.


1) Get undead that turns victims into self.
2) Set loose in village.
3) ???
4) Profit


Command a mohrg. Work out a contract with a local kingdom whereby you handle the execution of the condemned. Use the mohrg to kill them. In 1d4 days, they rise as zombies under its control. There is no cap on the number of zombies a mohrg can animate and control. Your only limit is your available supply of living people for it to murder.


You could very easily create a large number of undead by killing something via negative levels (See also; villager). When it rises as a ghoul, set it upon a populus (See also; village). Ghouls creating ghouls, all under your control.

I appreciate the input, but I'm trying to explore the possibility of making a large undead army by daisy-chaining it through Leadership. The kneejerk WIGHTOCALPYSE!!! response isn't really helpful here.

[Desmond Tiny]

All followers you get with leadership have npc classes or count as being many levels higher. To get clerics you have to be a very high level.

[JeminiZero]

My question is, how can you push this even further? Are there any relatively inexpensive ways to increase the number of undead each of your followers can have?


Look up the Night Caller whistle. Blow once per week to get a free zombie. Control up to 2 zombies at once. The thing is that the text can be intepreted such that after person 1 blows the whistle and get 2 zombies, he can pass the whistle to person 2 who can blow it again and get another 2 zombies. Needless to say, this can be combined with leadership for hilarious results (although you might want more than just 1 whistle so you can blow more than once per week). Although most DMs would use the far more reasonable intepretation of just 2 zombies max per whistle.

[Tiki Snakes]

Look up the Night Caller whistle. Blow once per week to get a free zombie. Control up to 2 zombies at once. The thing is that the text can be intepreted such that after person 1 blows the whistle and get 2 zombies, he can pass the whistle to person 2 who can blow it again and get another 2 zombies. Needless to say, this can be combined with leadership for hilarious results (although you might want more than just 1 whistle so you can blow more than once per week). Although most DMs would use the far more reasonable intepretation of just 2 zombies max per whistle.

I'd give 2 zombies to each person blowing the whistle, myself. It's only fair, really.

...The same 2 zombies, obviously! :smallcool:

[Somewhere]

All followers you get with leadership have npc classes or count as being many levels higher. To get clerics you have to be a very high level.

Hmm, can those same followers/cohorts get Leadership themselves? And so on and so on; so that if you're high enough level, you can start a feudalism type thing?

[Tiki Snakes]

For extra cheese, you could try taking wild cohort and having all your wild-cohorts take wild-cohort also. I believe at a certain level you had basically infinate level 3 wild cohorts. Take them all as wolves, and you have the children of the night to go with your undead. :)

[Ashiel]

Have all of your followers be experts with ranks in Use Magic Device. Then hook said experts up with x/day wands of animate dead. Assuming a cleric crafted it, and it was using the minimum caster level of 5, it can be priced like this:

Cost for 50 charges: 11250
Add 12500gp for the 250gp onyx material component for 10 HD worth of undead per casting, multiplied by 50.
Divide price by 5 for 1 charge per day.

Now you've got a 1/day wand of animate dead that can animate up 10HD worth of undead per day with a DC 20 UMD check, costing a grand total of 4,750gp (or 2,325gp and 190XP to craft).

Now it would take time for you to amass your undead army, but you're getting what amounts to 10HD worth of undead per day (either ten 1HD skeletons or five 2HD zombies) per day. Generating 20HD worth of undead per expert would take two days per minion, but after a few weeks you could have a small battalion of low-level experts leading groups of 20HD undead around (with none of the undead having more than 5HD tops).

This works great for BBEGs with "cultists" (the experts) who are using the "sacred artifact" (the spell-trigger item, or wand) to animate their undead followers. Works even better when you load them down with cheap and easy weapons (like quarterstaves, slings, leather armor, and so forth). It's especially effective for orc skeleton and zombies to equipped with slings (for +str bonus) and have them pelt people with rocks from a distance.

Maybe this would help? :smallsmile:

EDIT:
For extra cheese, you could try taking wild cohort and having all your wild-cohorts take wild-cohort also. I believe at a certain level you had basically infinate level 3 wild cohorts. Take them all as wolves, and you have the children of the night to go with your undead. :)

Tiki Snakes has a mean but good idea. The Wild Cohort feat on each of the experts would make for a perfectly creepy army of undead and wild dogs / wolves. You could really play this up if you grab riding dogs, make the experts small (goblins, kobolds, gnomes, and halflings would all work great) and have them ride the dogs into battle. Have them dress in dark robes with bone charms and totems dangling from their hoods and capes. Let the dogs wear spiked collars and be painted blood red with berry-juices to simulate hell-hounds (mostly for flavor and to creep out their enemies).

Personal Thoughts
As a DM, I think I would let my players do something like this. Especially since it can be easily broken up with a few liberal uses of low level AoE spells. :smallamused:

[FinalJustice]

This thread made me imagine the effects of a Evil Aligned Church of a undeath related god deciding to go to war. With all the Planning and organization, it would be brutal. Armies of undeads and clerics healing and generally tossing buffs at them, while higher level Clerics employ stronger shenanigans, Zillain', Consumpting Fieldin' and tossing pimped out Blasphemies.

[OldTrees]

I would suggest Deathwalkers for followers instead of clerics (alternate Wizard class. see crystalkeep) They can control 5HD of skeletons and zombies per class level in addition to spells.

[nyarlathotep]

I would like to second dread necro simply because the enormous number of undead afforded to you assuming you pimp out your charisma the way most casters do.That being said you followers should undoubtedly be clerics due to the high level of the power.

Remember to bring commanders with Lyres of the Restful Soul and rods of defiance so that you can have even more undead minions. Depending on how the DM considers negative turn resistance work you might be able to get an unlimited undead of 8 HD and lowwer, if not at least you can get a lot of the more powerful undead.

[Ponce]

Look up the Night Caller whistle. Blow once per week to get a free zombie. Control up to 2 zombies at once. The thing is that the text can be intepreted such that after person 1 blows the whistle and get 2 zombies, he can pass the whistle to person 2 who can blow it again and get another 2 zombies. Needless to say, this can be combined with leadership for hilarious results (although you might want more than just 1 whistle so you can blow more than once per week). Although most DMs would use the far more reasonable intepretation of just 2 zombies max per whistle.

This sounds excellent. It seems to be in the Sunless Citadel adventure. Funny, I don't recall it when an old DM of mine ran it for us. Anyway, is it printed anywhere else? I'm reasonably certain I can push through the 2 zombies per person thing.

@Tiki Snakes & Ashiel: That wild Cohort idea is badass. Awesomely badass. Especially the bit with the goblins. On a Badass scale from 1 to 10, it is Bruce Lee. And so are you guys for thinking of it. Try not to use your newfound kung fu powers for evil.

@Ashiel: The wand seems like a good idea. It is a shame that the benefits of the Corpsecrafter line don't carry over with the wand.

@OldTrees: Good for commanding, but I'm not sure level 1 wizards would act as force multipliers as well as level 1 clerics would. At least, when it comes to undead.

@nyarlathotep: Dread necro is certainly awesome. From the ground up, I would pick it, too. The campaign I'm playing in is already underway, though.

[JeminiZero]

This sounds excellent. It seems to be in the Sunless Citadel adventure. Funny, I don't recall it when an old DM of mine ran it for us. Anyway, is it printed anywhere else? I'm reasonably certain I can push through the 2 zombies per person thing.


Libris Mortis pg 79.

[Ponce]

Libris Mortis pg 79.

Ahhh, it always comes back to that, doesn't it? Interestingly, the Sunless Citadel version is priced at 3000gp versus the Libris Mortis 7000.

[Krazddndfreek]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Command the Horde and Undead leadership. Well I guess not that surprised, it's not uber cheesy. But still, you get to attract undead cohorts and followers and get extra followers for having followers above first level. :smallbiggrin:

[Haven]

I'd give 2 zombies to each person blowing the whistle, myself. It's only fair, really.

...The same 2 zombies, obviously! :smallcool:

This both makes me go "hee hee hee" and seems like the imminently sensible solution. Good job :p

[Ashiel]

This sounds excellent. It seems to be in the Sunless Citadel adventure. Funny, I don't recall it when an old DM of mine ran it for us. Anyway, is it printed anywhere else? I'm reasonably certain I can push through the 2 zombies per person thing.

@Tiki Snakes & Ashiel: That wild Cohort idea is badass. Awesomely badass. Especially the bit with the goblins. On a Badass scale from 1 to 10, it is Bruce Lee. And so are you guys for thinking of it. Try not to use your newfound kung fu powers for evil.

@Ashiel: The wand seems like a good idea. It is a shame that the benefits of the Corpsecrafter line don't carry over with the wand.

@OldTrees: Good for commanding, but I'm not sure level 1 wizards would act as force multipliers as well as level 1 clerics would. At least, when it comes to undead.

@nyarlathotep: Dread necro is certainly awesome. From the ground up, I would pick it, too. The campaign I'm playing in is already underway, though.

Heheh, well thank you very much Ponce LeRue. :smallbiggrin:

On a side note, it's probably better that the benefits of the corpse-crafter feats don't carry over to the wand. It's essentially a cannon-fodder dream item, to be wielded by cannon-fodder leaders. If you could toss the bonuses from those feats into it, then it would start to be too good. :smalltongue:

Also, it's also worth noting that if you're using it as a big undead army for a big bad evil guy, then taking leadership or undead leadership actually sort of provide the bodies to animate. Think about it. Your minions head out to do your dirty work, then some of them are killed (say by the local militia or something). Afterwords your other minions can collect your fallen minions (and their animal cohorts) and proceed to animate more skeletons and undead dogs. You're not even directly responsible for their deaths (you didn't kill them, or blow them up in a misplaced fireball spell for example) so you don't suffer leadership penalties when they die by enemies, meaning you will get more followers shortly rallying to your cause. :smallcool:

If you want to micro-manage your army, you can keep those skeletons doing bitch-work when not on patrol with their commanders by working as miners, ditch diggers, woodchoppers, and so forth to acquire resources (GP) by taking 10 on craft of profession checks (earning 5gp per week per undead) while being overseen by one of the trained experts.

Remember how the goblins were tearing down the forest in the LotR movies, and hammering out countless swords, armors, and other necessities for the army? It would be like that. The gold isn't even popping out of thin air. Instead, it can be explained as that much progress in trade goods towards funding your army (such as growing food, hauling metal and stone from mines and quarries, catching fish, whatever). This also ties in beautifully when the players find the base camp of the evil goblins or whatever and see huge industrial fires and land exploitation by the unyielding labor force that the big bad has under his/her command. :smalleek:

Also...
While we're talking about turning all these undead and worg riders into something scary, let's talk about reach weapons and ranged weapons in the hands of the army. A few things to keep in mind:

Riding dogs with goblin sized experts on their back wielding long spears are scary. Also spears + locked gauntlets are surprisingly effective at pestering people by repeatedly trying to disarm their foes. Unless their foe has reach, they can't get their AoO, and the creatures get a +10 against being counter-disarmed. If the enemy gets to close, they have to deal with the (hopefully heavily barded) angry riding dogs who will trip you while the mob of them flank you!
Undead already have effective damage reductions, and natural armor bonuses, so throwing on cheap gear (scale mail, heavy shields, etc) can boost their defenses to unnaturally high levels. A typical skeleton should have an AC of 13 (+1 dex, +2 natural). Toss on some scale mail and a heavy shield (+6) and slap a kusari-gama in their hands (light reach weapon, found in the DMG), and locked gauntlets, and let them march along slashing everything that dares get close to them.
Zombies are surprisingly good at ranged combat if properly equipped. The -2 dex penalty hurts, but the +2 strength bonus can be awesome if used right. A group of orc warrior zombies (str 17, dex 12, con 11, becomes 19, 10, _) equipped with slings (+str to thrown weapons) and set up in groups make for a dangerous group. Combined with the difficulty of finding good ranged slashing weapons, they are horrible if you can't reach them with melee or blast them with spells.

If you have someone cast desecrate where they're grouped together, you net an additional +2 to attack and damage. Those zombies can stand back and hurl bullets for 1d4+6 points of damage (each) without moving from their position. This is great if you can grant them cover or put them on a high-ground position and let them pelt anyone who dares get close enough to your front lines.
Undead suicide bombers are particularly nasty. If you have black powder or grenades in your game, strap 'em up and let 'em go. Alternatively, having skeleton and zombies hurl flaming oil on enemies is particularly brutal (allowing for 1d6/round ongoing damage unless the targets waste a full-round action to attempt to put it out with a DC 15 reflex save).
Undead lined up with pole arms are also pretty effective walls against traditional attacks. Zombies make excellent meat shields in this situation, as they work best when they don't need to move (since they have single actions only). Their slam attacks let anyone engaging them in melee suffer up to six attacks or more, while your other undead or experts focus-fire with ranged weapons on anyone who isn't closing for melee with them. Better when desecrated.
Have your minions make liberal use of weapons like the Net (ranged touch attack to entanlge), molotov cocktails, oil slicks and marbles (grease), and tactics like Aid Another. A ton of wolf riders circling an opponent while using Aid Another is an excellent way to set up a really sweet Power Attack or Scorching Ray, or even a Disarm or Grapple check.
Cast silence on your undead and march them into ambush positions and let 'em sit there waiting. Let some of them run into enemy spellcasters and keep trying to grapple them. Heck, merely ordering an undead wolf to run down enemy casters (to keep them in range of the silence radius) is a cruel trick. Hope your enemies have some psions (woot for no silly magic words).

Some of these tricks were used in a set of encounters I wrote up for a game a friend of mine was running for his tabletop group. Here's the link to the pdf on my mediafire account. Feedback is appreciated. :smallsmile:

Undead Encounters (http://www.mediafire.com/file/zbgex0zn11k/Undead Encounters.pdf).

[Malacode]

Oh. My. God. I love every single one of you. I'm running a game that's soon to turn into an undead-fest of epic proportions. I had a few neferious ideas for the BBEG, but you guys really set my mind on fire. I love that PDF, ashiel.

On topic: Seconding, thirding, whatever-ing Dread Necro. Even if you can't be one, have your cohort be one. They create the undead. They needn't control them, just create them. Get Desecrate on their spell list, and give them all the corpse crafting feats. Then get someone to hit the undead with some sort of Turn-Resistance-lowering spell or power. Then your Cleric followers turn them while under Eagles Splendour. It'll cost you a bit if they destroy them, but that can be regained with a bit of undead labour.

[Ashiel]

Oh. My. God. I love every single one of you. I'm running a game that's soon to turn into an undead-fest of epic proportions. I had a few neferious ideas for the BBEG, but you guys really set my mind on fire. I love that PDF, ashiel.

On topic: Seconding, thirding, whatever-ing Dread Necro. Even if you can't be one, have your cohort be one. They create the undead. They needn't control them, just create them. Get Desecrate on their spell list, and give them all the corpse crafting feats. Then get someone to hit the undead with some sort of Turn-Resistance-lowering spell or power. Then your Cleric followers turn them while under Eagles Splendour. It'll cost you a bit if they destroy them, but that can be regained with a bit of undead labour.

Heheh. Thank you Malacode. That means a lot to me. ^.^
Feel free to send me a PM telling me what your favorite bits from the pdf were, and maybe why. It helps to get feedback on my little projects, so I can turn out even better stuff later on. :smallsmile:

A few more ideas for turning lots of weak enemies into something threatening. Adepts can be acquired by leadership and undead leadership normally, and they have animate dead on their spell lists so you don't even have to make UMD checks. Their stats are similar to experts (proficient in light armor, simple weapons for longspears, don't suffer from spell failure) so they could be a better option. They also get spells such as sleep, bless, obscuring mist, and see invisibility on their spell lists, allowing you to create several very handy minions. A single adept commanding 20 HD worth of the aforementioned undead sling-shooters can cast bless to great increase the punishment they dish out.

Also your 2nd level adepts get a familiar, which you can use as a very effective set of spies and informants. Using their familiars you can scout great distances with owl or raven familiars. Heck, the owl familiars are really sweet in forests and junk where enemies would never expect them.

A few more things to keep in mind. :smallamused:

[OldTrees]

@OldTrees: Good for commanding, but I'm not sure level 1 wizards would act as force multipliers as well as level 1 clerics would. At least, when it comes to undead.

Depends on which force multipliers you use.

Clerics might make each undead more efficient.

Deathwalkers give you more undead so cheap force multipliers (like requiem dragonfire bards) become more effective.


Requiem Dragonfire Bards and Requiem Warchanters are great at turning 2HD Zombies or 1HD skeletons into elite forces. Combine with corpsecrafting amazing forces
14.5hp/HD +20 temp hp/round
natural or club damage +1d6cold +4d6cold +4d6 fire +4d6acid +4d6electirc

On the topic of corpse crafting:

1 caster with (as low level as possible)
enhance undead (alt wiz class feature (same effects as corpse crafter but bonus hp/HD stacks))
corpsecrafter
1 of the other corpsecrafter feats
0th level damage spell of your choice

3 casters with (as low level as possible) [optional casters]
cooperative spell
corpsecrafter
1 of the other corpsecrafter feats
0th level damage spell of your choice

1 caster with (as low level cohort (or cohort's cohort ...) as possible)
Undead Mastery
cooperative spell
corpsecrafter
1 of the other corpsecrafter feats
0th level damage spell of your choice

Have as many followers as possible able to cast Fell Animate Sanctum [same 0th level damage spell]

Cast in a desecrated shrine that is in the sanctum of the casters

Effects:
All Corpsecrafter feats applied (any feats that you might want to be able to omit llike Destructive Retribution or Bolster Resistence should be taken by the 3 optional casters)

+4 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex
+8 hp/HD