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View Full Version : Gestalt Bard/Paladin, any good?



KaeltheAwesome
2009-11-30, 09:32 PM
Hello folks, I'm DMing a campaign right now and one of my players expressed an interest in both the bard class and the paladin class. Since those were both fairly balanced classes based on charisma, I figured that would probably work out quite well but I'm not sure.

Would it be a good choice to let him gestalt the two, especially when we don't have any other gestalts? (yet, I'm pondering letting the monk gestalt to balance out the wizard, its a three man group.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-30, 09:37 PM
Wizard, Monk//whatever, Paladin//Bard. Probably fairly balanced. Point him towards Snowflake Wardance, the SpC, and base Paladin casting off of Cha, and you're probably good.

Glimbur
2009-11-30, 09:39 PM
Technically Bards can't be Lawful and standard paladins are LG. I suggest either using variant paladins or letting bards be lawful.

It's not one of the more optimal Gestalts (Wizard//Factotum and the like), but does help the paladin pick up more skills that an investigator type would want which is nice.

Go for it.

KaeltheAwesome
2009-11-30, 09:42 PM
Honestly I thought 4E did paladins/alignment better.

LG works for some paladins but leaves you really limited.

I had forgotten about that though, thanks.

Kantolin
2009-11-30, 09:47 PM
There's a feat in the complete adventurer called "Devoted Performer", which lets you be a lawful good bard and multiclass freely between bard and paladin.

It also lets both paladin and bard levels combine to determine your smite and bardic music bonuses, but I have no idea what that does in Gestalt. :P

Personally, let bards be lawful already.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 09:51 PM
Technically Bards can't be Lawful and standard paladins are LG. I suggest either using variant paladins or letting bards be lawful.


There is a feat from Complete Adventurer (I think...) that allows such, like the Astetic Assassin and Dashing Rogue-type feats. Give him that feat and voila, a Lawful Bard//Paly

On the other hand, the combo of Bard//Paly of Freedom is a cool concept. However, I suggest the above combo, go into Snowflake Wardance, and have him focus his Preformance in SwordDancing. His Attacks are now based on his Preformance. Cool, eh?

Saintheart
2009-11-30, 09:56 PM
If it's completely gestalt, Initiate of Milil from the Forgotten Realms Champions of Valorallows a character to stack paladin and bard levels for the purposes of determining what types of bardic music can be used. Significant since Inspiring Heroics doesn't otherwise show up for a while. IIRC Milil also allows LG bards to serve him, too.

Also, look at Harmonious Knight substitution levels. I love the concept of bardadins. :D

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 09:57 PM
There's a feat in the complete adventurer called "Devoted Performer", which lets you be a lawful good bard and multiclass freely between bard and paladin.

It also lets both paladin and bard levels combine to determine your smite and bardic music bonuses, but I have no idea what that does in Gestalt. :P

Personally, let bards be lawful already.

Here's my thought:

Because it states that the levels "stack" for smite and for music, one can assume that in a gestalt, one simply adds both levels of Paladin and Bard to create a "total" character level for smiting and for bardic music

Saintheart
2009-11-30, 10:00 PM
Here's my thought:

Because it states that the levels "stack" for smite and for music, one can assume that in a gestalt, one simply adds both levels of Paladin and Bard to create a "total" character level for smiting and for bardic music

...The irony being that it's an Air Guitar God who's suggesting a godly bard. :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2009-11-30, 10:08 PM
Honestly, a Wizard will probably feel overshadowed by a Paladin//Bard and a Monk//(Fighter?) unless the Wizard is quite optimized. Or unless the Gestalt players are quite un-optimized. Class imbalance in D&D is real, but in practical terms, it's not that big of an effect.

That said, even if the Wizard isn't optimal, the imbalance in such a party won't be huge, so the Wizard player may not care.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-11-30, 10:08 PM
...The irony being that it's an Air Guitar God who's suggesting a godly bard. :smallbiggrin:

Bad is one of my fave classes. As is Hexblade and Duskblade.

Gish-in-a-boxes are in my opinion the most fun and playable.

So saint, take a level 1 Halfling barbarian and yank on the Tarrasques' tail...

lol

BooNL
2009-12-01, 02:48 AM
Here's my thought:

Because it states that the levels "stack" for smite and for music, one can assume that in a gestalt, one simply adds both levels of Paladin and Bard to create a "total" character level for smiting and for bardic music

No, it doesn't do anything. At least it shouldn't.

Bard and Paladin are on opposite sides of the gestalt. Why would a feat, designed to stack benefits on a single class side work the same in gestalt?

A Bard 4//Paladin 4 doesn't magically have 8//8 music and smiting.

If that's the case, I'll just build me a Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10//Wizard/Mystic Theurge 10 and enjoy 26th level casting at level 13...

Draz74
2009-12-01, 02:52 AM
If that's the case, I'll just build me a Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10//Wizard/Mystic Theurge 10 and enjoy 26th level casting at level 13...

That argument is a fallacy, since this is arguably the very reason that Gestalt recommends against allowing dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge.

BooNL
2009-12-01, 03:01 AM
And dual-progression feats are different how...?

Zaq
2009-12-01, 03:11 AM
Forget the Gestalt. What you want is a Bard/Paladin/Mystic Theurge.
I take no responsibility for what would happen if you actually do this.

Draz74
2009-12-01, 03:12 AM
And dual-progression feats are different how...?

They're ... not explicitly mentioned in the Gestalt rules?

I wasn't arguing with your intended point, only with the logic with which you presented it. I agree that you shouldn't be able to get any class feature up higher than your actual level in Gestalt.


Forget the Gestalt. What you want is a Bard/Paladin/Mystic Theurge.
I take no responsibility for what would happen if you actually do this.

Oi. Just reading this causes me pain.

BooNL
2009-12-01, 03:26 AM
Glad that you agree with me. Also, dual-advancing feats weren't around when gestalt was written. :smallwink:

Anyway, to the OP. If you want to gestalt him, Bard//Paladin does just fine, maybe with a PrC at either end. If you're going for a Snowflake Wardance build, you could pick up Dervish on the Paladin side. That synergises well with Perform (dance) and the slashing weapon he'd be using.
You might want to take an ACF to get rid of that paladin mount, your player won't be using it in combat.

Going Bard/Mindbender//Paladin would probably cause him to fall within 10 minutes, could be worth considering :smalltongue:.

Also, you've got only 3 players, two of them gestalting and 1 a tier 3 class. To keep the illusion of 'balance', you might want to allow the wizard to gestalt into aristocrat or expert. Both of which give a bunch of extra skills, but nothing more. Warrior shouldn't be considered, as the full BAB would be too powerful.

KaeltheAwesome
2009-12-01, 07:48 AM
But wizards a T1 class, and he mostly caused me trouble when I just had the monk as the other player. The monk is willing to multiclass/PrC when he hits higher level, so I might just give him the monk 6/swordsage/whatever combo I keep seeing around.

The wizard player may not optimize, but his player is very thorough so far and will easily find the good spells and feats and almost optimize by accident I think. Paladin//Bard will be good since the guy playing it is playing it more for the backstory now than mechanical benefit, so I'll let him figure out a build and maybe drop a hint here and there.

Cyclocone
2009-12-01, 08:06 AM
It doesn't sound like it would break anything, although it's gonna make the monk look like a gimp... well gimpyer than usual anyway.

But still, take a good long look at his finished character sheet and make sure he isn't making a Paladin//Bard/Sublime Chord with Celerity and DMM persisted Favor of the Martyr.:smallwink:

Prime32
2009-12-01, 08:17 AM
Let the monk take two levels in that class, then take the Tashalatora feat and switch to psychic warrior. He'll thank you for it.

BooNL
2009-12-01, 09:26 AM
But wizards a T1 class, and he mostly caused me trouble when I just had the monk as the other player. The monk is willing to multiclass/PrC when he hits higher level, so I might just give him the monk 6/swordsage/whatever combo I keep seeing around.

The wizard player may not optimize, but his player is very thorough so far and will easily find the good spells and feats and almost optimize by accident I think. Paladin//Bard will be good since the guy playing it is playing it more for the backstory now than mechanical benefit, so I'll let him figure out a build and maybe drop a hint here and there.

True, but I can also see the wizard player getting upset that the others get to play gestalt while he's stuck with 'one crummy class'.

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-01, 09:32 AM
My favorite wizard class to gestalt with is either sorcerer (all those spells), Cleric (More spells!) or Fighter (Take still spell to become an engine of destruction)