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AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-01, 12:10 AM
Thanks to my victory, I was told that, if I wanted to, I could join an epic 45th level campaign.

here's the party:
Drow Demilich Sorcerer/Archmage/Assassin
Shifter Druid/MoMF/Natures Guardian/Warshaper/ect.
Death Knight Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Ex-Sohei
Shadowswyft Half-Devil Ninja//Rogue/Assassin/Invisible Blade
Dwarf Half-Adamantine Dragon Marshall//Dragon Shaman/Dragon Disciple/Bard

I want to run a Maug (FFI) and be Mr. Melee Pwnage

I'm willing to use any books.

My only request is that I use a Huge Two-Bladed Sword or a Huge Greatsword, both of which are mentioned as favored maug weaponry and wear as heavy of armor as possible.

I don't want to lose my construct stuff and still be awesome.

And I recieve the Paragon template for free

all chars have 4 divine ranks.

If anyone can post a "rough draft" or several, I'll decide on the best course of action.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 12:11 AM
Whatever has full spellcasting.

mikeejimbo
2009-12-01, 12:13 AM
I suggest a cleric with heavy usage of DMM.

Or I would, except that by this level that seems redundant.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-01, 12:13 AM
Whatever has full spellcasting.

The party needs a Mr. Melee. I'm not looking for a caster. I won my duel and my character is now a greater deity, taking Thay's place in the Human Pantheon

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 12:24 AM
And the best melee combo at level 45 involves epic level spells.

Mongoose87
2009-12-01, 12:24 AM
The party needs a Mr. Melee. I'm not looking for a caster. I won my duel and my character is now a greater deity, taking Thay's place in the Human Pantheon

Thing is, if you can cast something like, say, Shapechange, you're better at melee than any melee classes.

EDIT:
And the best melee combo at level 45 involves epic level spells.

Or this.

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 12:33 AM
Okay, how about a nice direct answer?

Warblade 20/Factotum 8/Psion 16/Subverted Psion 1
Feats:
Font of inspiration x 4-5 and a nice varied load out of psionic feats.

Just exploit the crap out of buffs and cunning surge.

erikun
2009-12-01, 12:34 AM
Psychic Warrior 35/Slayer 10 using the Expanded Knowledge feat to grab the Astral Construct power. You can use Expansion to increase your size two categories, Psionic Lionís Charge to make a full attack even after a double move, and use Astral Construct for as many "minions" as your PP will allow. You have near-full BAB (with Psychic Warrior 10/Slayer 10 being the first 20 levels) and can use feats like Deep Impact to make attacks easy to hit.

Actually, I'm not really sure. I've never played at that high of a level, and what you will need to do to be "effective" will greatly vary between parties. However, if you like psionics, then ^ might be a good place to start. (Wilder/Slayer would be promising, too)

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 12:36 AM
E, we have 45 levels to work with. _45_

Amphetryon
2009-12-01, 12:41 AM
Egoist 45.

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 12:47 AM
Heheheheh I'll support that.

WeeFreeMen
2009-12-01, 12:49 AM
How about some barbarian?
Nothing says melee brute like barbarian :P

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-01, 12:53 AM
AGG, you seem to be under the impression that non-casters are relevant past level 17. They aren't. To be fair, that's the same mistake the writers of the books made. Things like Timestop are far more effective than anything melee can do, especially since, if you must melee, Gate, Shapechange, Dominate, Create Undead, and similar, all do so better than an actual melee-oriented PC.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 12:54 AM
Egoist 45.I might actually suggest taking levels of metamind after you hit level 21. Abuse the heck out of font of power, timeless body, schism, and temporal reiteration. Infinite power points and you're invincible unless dispelled. Note that this applies to Epic Overchannel. Add +80,000 to your manifester level for temporal reiteration and you're damned sure never to get dispelled. EVER.

Make sure to add in 11 levels of factotum so you can get those tasty standard actions AND be a blaster in your spare time by ignoring PR/SR.

[edit] Oh, and DR.

[edit/edit] Also, you may wish to buff yourself to hell and back first. Feel free to also buff the hell out of your psicrystal, too; sure doesn't hurt to have your two-for-one combo going.

You may also wish to find a way to gate in something insanely powerful (use metamorphosis or greater metamorphosis to change your size and type to match), then use fusion on it (or, alternately, just use fission on yourself). Use fusion again on your psicrystal with something else that's totally overpowered. Then toss on stuff like touchsight, psionic freedom of movement, psionic true seeing, oak body, psionic iron body, shadow body, energy conversion, schism and so on (they should all just about stack), and THEN ramp up your font of power/timeless body/temporal reiteration trick.

Make yourself an absolute melee beast.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-01, 01:20 AM
I direct you to Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115). Also Miss Chances (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128894&highlight=miss+chances)
At level 45, you should have the ability to take most of those combos, then it's just a matter of keeping your math straight as you decide which set of melee smackdown to use.
If you ignore any and all casting abilities of your own, I'd actually recommend the mageslayer feat tree as well. Just make sure you know which conditions for which your DM considers them applicable (if perhaps he is reading them incorrectly).

Yes, you can probably do it better as a caster, but all these methods are closer to what you want.
Everyone's point in saying "go caster" is that a level 17 wizard can summon a monster which can win against the level 17 beatsticks in the party, so the PC beatsticks are irrelevant. In addition, epic spellcasting can be an automatic "I win" button.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-01, 01:23 AM
Shadowswyft Half-Devil Ninja//Rogue/Assassin/Invisible Blade
Dwarf Half-Adamantine Dragon Marshall//Dragon Shaman/Dragon Disciple/Bard


What is a shadowswyft? The name sounds pretty cool.
The dwarf finished off dragon disciple to become half dragon, right?

Narazil
2009-12-01, 01:26 AM
What is a shadowswyft? The name sounds pretty cool.
The dwarf finished off dragon disciple to become half dragon, right?
They are to The Plane of Shadows what Tieflings are to the Abyss.
LA +1 race IIRC

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 01:26 AM
Actually, my point was a little more subtle.

45 levels is enough to be a full caster and a full warrior. It's like gestalt, but made entirely of crack cocaine and orphan blood.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-01, 01:28 AM
They are to The Plane of Shadows what Tieflings are to the Abyss.
LA +1 race IIRC

Ooh, which book? Manual of Planes? A web enchancement?

Doc Roc
2009-12-01, 01:28 AM
The lovely Planar Handbook. Home of many of my most loved effects, spells, and feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-01, 01:29 AM
Why not just use Persistent (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm), and be immune to everything in existence... At that level, you would actually need something like that in order to survive. You could even True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) the Tarrasque and play as the Tarrasque, which would include all of its abilities that make it unkillable, plus Persistent Timeless Body.

Realistically, Maug is a very weak race, you'd be better off with a templated creature that somehow becomes a construct. For example, make an Effigy Creature (Complete Arcane) of a [insert humanoid-shaped base race] with Half-Dragon applied 42 times (once for each official dragon variety) at no LA, then Awaken Construct (SC) cast on it with Intensify Spell so your base Int, Wis, and Cha scores will all be 36. That creature technically has no LA, though it was never intended to even exist in the first place. Add Paragon on top of that, and make it a Psion with Persistent Timeless Body.

dspeyer
2009-12-01, 02:06 AM
Play a monster. One of the big ones that you'd never be able to play normally. Like a frost giant psychic warrior / swordsage (psychic warrior because you want augmented expansion). Or if you can get your dm to houserule las, an ancient dragon or a titan.

It may not be the most optimized (not that epic melee can be), but it will feel more different than stacking numbers onto a conventional beatstick, and therefore be more fun.

Draz74
2009-12-01, 03:10 AM
I would certainly want to pull off a tricked-out Master of Nine build with this. Some build that can recharge all the best Maneuvers in the Tome of Battle as a free action, because he used Master of Nine to add them all to his Crusader progression. He might even be able to do that and also fit in Warblade 20 (for Stance Mastery) and Factotum 8 (for occasional Extra Standard Action madness). Something like Swordsage 2 / Warblade 20 / Crusader 10 / Master of Nine 5 / Factotum 8.

But yeah, a caster would definitely be more powerful. So I'm also in favor of the Psion idea -- make the King of Smack, only with 25 extra levels.

Elan Ranger 1 / Psion (Egoist) 5 / Slayer 9 / Warshaper 5 / Metamind 10 / Constructor 4 / Factotum 11, perhaps.

Kylarra
2009-12-01, 03:43 AM
I just want to see something with factotum and swiftblade in it tbh. :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2009-12-01, 03:53 AM
The party needs a Mr. Melee.

other than the Death Knight Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker?

Well, I join dspeyer: play a monster, it will be more fun.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 03:54 AM
I just want to see something with factotum and swiftblade in it tbh. :smalltongue:

Hm, level 45 means you could get 10 levels of Eternal Blade, 8 of Factotum, 10 of Swiftblade and still get the prerequisite 20 levels of arcane casting. You could also get 5 levels of MotN I suppose, if for nothing else than for Counter Stance to save on action costs a bit more. If only there were some stronger defensive stances. I suppose Immortal Fortitude is pretty respectable tho and benefits of Counter Stance nicely. Lessee:

Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Factotum 8/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10 is a level 44 character. So we gotta cut some Wizard-fat out; Factotum 8/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10/Master of the Nine 5.

Not the best character ever, nor even very good, but it at least has ~enough standard actions on each round. As an interesting point, that makes Island in Time absolutely brutal as it's not only Standard Action + Move Action but about 10 Standard Actions and some Multispells too.

As an interesting note, since you actually take your turn in Island in Time, it effectively doesn't cost you an immediate action; you can take another one right after it. Also, Stance of Alacrity enables one counter for free along with stance switch. There's e.g. One with Shadow that's a handy incorporeality enabler.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-01, 04:17 AM
A monster character actually wouldn't be a bad idea. Take the following:

Special Attacks
A paragon creatureís special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
And combine it with something like this:

Split (Ex)
Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the originalís current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.
And add the +13 to how many identical puddings the character turns into. One piercing or slashing attack, and you now have 15 identical characters. Another attack, and you have 29 characters, another and you get 43, etc., each of which can make a full attack every round.

Or use it for a Titan's Oversized Weapon ability, applying +13 to the number of hammers you can wield without penalty. Make fourteen full attacks every round, one with each of fourteen hammers. I have no idea how he does it, but with his superhuman coordination he somehow makes it work.

That +13 can make spell-like abilities and spells especially completely over the top. Add +13 to the number of rays fired by your Enervation, for example. It's also useful for class features, for example a Frenzied Berserker's Improved/Supreme Power Attack is a special attack, so you could add +13 to the damage coefficient, for +16 per -1 with a two-handed weapon with Improved Power Attack. Better yet, take Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3 and add +13 to your attack coefficient for Dexterous Attack, and add +13 to the Enchant Chosen Weapon enhancement bonus. Paragon allows you to add +13 to every one of your special attacks, the number of +13's is only limited to your number of offensive special abilities.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 04:22 AM
Eh, you've got Shapechange anyways. Any racial ability replicable via Shapechange + Polymorph Any Object isn't worth bothering about. Paragon is nice, but Paragon is also LA - and minimum of LA +20 so you're looking at probably half your levels to pick it up.

It's nice, no question, especially in conjuction with Shapechange but at that point you've only got 25 levels left to pick up Epic Casting and that's about it; you'll be left with about the same action pool as average mid 20s character.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 04:26 AM
Eh, you've got Shapechange anyways. Any racial ability replicable via Shapechange + Polymorph Any Object isn't worth bothering about. Paragon is nice, but Paragon is also LA - and minimum of LA +20 so you're looking at probably half your levels to pick it up.

It's nice, no question, especially in conjuction with Shapechange but at that point you've only got 25 levels left to pick up Epic Casting and that's about it; you'll be left with about the same action pool as average mid 20s character.:: OBLIGATORY TEXT
<snip>

And I recieve the Paragon template for free

<snip>

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 04:40 AM
:: OBLIGATORY TEXT

Hm, reading comprehension is difficult. Very well, I guess that makes Shapechange slightly better than it used to be.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-01, 05:57 AM
Hm, level 45 means you could get 10 levels of Eternal Blade, 8 of Factotum, 10 of Swiftblade and still get the prerequisite 20 levels of arcane casting. You could also get 5 levels of MotN I suppose, if for nothing else than for Counter Stance to save on action costs a bit more. If only there were some stronger defensive stances. I suppose Immortal Fortitude is pretty respectable tho and benefits of Counter Stance nicely. Lessee:

Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Factotum 8/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10 is a level 44 character. So we gotta cut some Wizard-fat out; Factotum 8/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10/Master of the Nine 5.

Not the best character ever, nor even very good, but it at least has ~enough standard actions on each round. As an interesting point, that makes Island in Time absolutely brutal as it's not only Standard Action + Move Action but about 10 Standard Actions and some Multispells too.

As an interesting note, since you actually take your turn in Island in Time, it effectively doesn't cost you an immediate action; you can take another one right after it. Also, Stance of Alacrity enables one counter for free along with stance switch. There's e.g. One with Shadow that's a handy incorporeality enabler.

Eldariel has the right idea here, abuse action economy. But go one further to really lay down the melee smack : make him a 'hood!

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-01, 07:21 AM
Had a "decent?" idea to use two of my fave classes:

Duskblade 15/ Warblade 15/ Abjurant Champion(TY Dusklade) 10/ Jade Phoenix Mage 5

Place this on a Szarkai, add template and tell opponennt to bend over asy you ram a +10 Rapier with your favorite spell up their.....you know

and the DM allows most spells to work for duskblade and has developed an "Epic Duskblade" rules

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 07:23 AM
Abjurant Champion is short progression. 5 levels to be precise. You need something instead. Also, Duskblade casting is decidedly subpar on epic 'cause you don't get 9th level spells nor qualification for Epic Spellcasting; I suggest few levels of Wizard and PrCing it to all hell.

Also, that doesn't give you any action economy rapage at all. Eternal Blade/Swiftblade/similar could be nice.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 07:39 AM
Cleric 5 / Contemplative 10 / Church Inquisitor 10 / Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / MT 19

There. 9/9/9
CL 24 with Cleric, CL 26 with Druid, CL 26 with Wizard.

Epic Spellcasting feat will net you a butt ton of epic spells. Use epic magics to create better versions of all the best melee buff spells, that are also permanent.

Then use your second epic spell to really have fun. Something that lets you go all "action economy".

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:42 AM
If you can use 3rd party supplements, there's one template, the ascended elf, that grants sorcerer casting based on your HD (includes class levels), which basically gestalts you into sorcerer. It has all sorts of crazy abilities, and has +4 LA. Buy off the LA, take 1 level in wizard (with Precocious Apprentice), 11 levels in factotum (because your CLs will be crap without further shenanigans), then go bard 1/sublime chord 1/arcane PrC 1/ur priest 1/divine PrC 1/mystic theurge 1/legacy champion 10 (advance MT casting)/psion 3/cerebremancer 14 (advance wizard and psion). You'll have 9th level sorcerer spells, 9th level bard spells, 9th level cleric spells, 8th level wizard spells, and 9th level psion powers.

Use factotum to ignore SR.

No epic casting, but we can tweak it a bit if you want it.

Optimystik
2009-12-01, 11:49 AM
Very well, I guess that makes Shapechange slightly better than it used to be.

This sentence alone proves how meaninglessly overpowered this campaign will be.

ocdscale
2009-12-01, 12:22 PM
Drow Demilich Sorcerer/Archmage/Assassin
Shifter Druid/MoMF/Natures Guardian/Warshaper/ect.
Death Knight Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Ex-Sohei
Shadowswyft Half-Devil Ninja//Rogue/Assassin/Invisible Blade
Dwarf Half-Adamantine Dragon Marshall//Dragon Shaman/Dragon Disciple/Bard

Look at who he is going to be playing with. This is the bar you need to meet/surpass. Frankly, I think Eladariel's Factotum 8/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10/Master of the Nine 5 proposal is more than enough to compete. How many of those characters can really abuse action economy?

The goal is to have fun. People forget that other people have different ideas about what is fun. Some people's idea of fun is playing at level 45 the same way as level 10 just with bigger numbers and cooler names. My sense is this is exactly what's going on in this game. Other people like tinkering with optimization. I personally fall into this category, but I can understand that not everyone shares my preferences.

I agree with Doc Roc that a good side-option would be to have 9th level casting so that the character always has options/flexibility, but according to the OP (who can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) the goal isn't to make a Wizard/Druid that shapechanges into a beatstick, it's to make a beatstick.

If people think it's impossible to make a "Mr. Melee Pwnage" in the spirit of the OP's request that can compete in a group of those five characters, then okay. No need to keep repeating it. I don't hesitate to remind you however that the supposedly most powerful character in the group spent an action casting Disintegrate in a duel after permitting epic magic.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 12:29 PM
Look at who he is going to be playing with. This is the bar you need to meet/surpass. Frankly, I think Eladariel's Factotum 8/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 10/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10/Master of the Nine 5 proposal is more than enough to compete. How many of those characters can really abuse action economy?

The goal is to have fun. People forget that others people have different ideas about what is fun. Some people's idea of fun is playing at level 45 the same way as level 10 just with bigger numbers and cooler names. My sense is this is exactly what's going on in this game. Other people like tinkering with optimization. I personally fall into this category, but I can understand that not everyone shares my preferences.

I agree with Doc Roc that a good side-option would be to have 9th level casting so that the character always has options/flexibility, but according to the OP (who can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) the goal isn't to make a Wizard/Druid that shapechanges into a beatstick, it's to make a beatstick.

If people think it's impossible to make a "Mr. Melee Pwnage" in the spirit of the OP's request that can compete in a group of those five characters, then okay. No need to keep repeating it. I don't hesitate to remind you however that the supposedly most powerful character in the group spent an action casting Disintegrate in a duel after permitting epic magic.Druids make excellent beatsticks even without spells. Their animal companions alone can be incredibly potent.

What epic-level animal companions could a druid potentially take? Heck, just take druid 45 with wildshaping feats. You'd get full 9th level casting, a companion that could take down Elminster without help, and wild shape abilities that put shapechange to shame. And you can't even be accused of cherrypicking your classes.

ex cathedra
2009-12-01, 12:29 PM
I don't see the point of this; designing ECL65 characters really takes absolutely no skill. The fact that you still aren't excelling at it is somewhat odd, but so be it.

Anyways, I don't see how you need a melee character considering that your party practically only has one caster. Additionally, seriously, melee doesn't matter at level 17, much less thrice that. You've been told this, I think.

PhoenixRivers has a good suggestion. Swiftblade is terrific in nearly every circumstance.

A Paragon Necropolitan Fire Elf Wizard Elven Generalist Wizard 5 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1 / Spelldancer 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Shadow Adept 1 / Paragnostic Apostle 1 / Mindbender 1 / Spellsword 1 / Eternal Blade 10 / Factotum 8 will be my suggestion.

Aside from epic spells, we have the following :
Wizard + Swiftblade + Island in Time + Cunning Surge for action abuse.
Necropolitan + Tainted Scholar + Spelldancer for an absolutely arbitrarily high amount of spell slots. Spelldancing lets us apply certain metamagic to these with only a few extra actions. This doesn't really matter since the metamagic we'll be applying is extend/persist.
Wizard + Swiftblade + Abjurant Champion + Paragnostic Apostle + Shadow Adept for an extremely high amount of spell-based defensive measures of various sorts.
Mindbender for 100' Mindsight.

It isn't very good, but it should compete with your peers moderately well.

Draz74
2009-12-01, 12:34 PM
Hmmm ...

Couatl Sorcerer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 10 / Factotum 11 / Swordsage 5 could be fun.

infinitypanda
2009-12-01, 12:42 PM
Fighter 45.

With VoP.

Do it.

Ormagoden
2009-12-01, 12:44 PM
This sentence alone proves how meaninglessly overpowered this campaign will be.

nodnodnodnodnodnodnodnodnodnod

Barbarian MD
2009-12-01, 12:53 PM
Fighter 45.

With VoP.

Do it.


I was just going to say Fighter 45, sans VOP. :smallbiggrin:


Unless you've got 45 levels of VOP statted out, which would be an impressive sight.

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-01, 01:04 PM
Get to Ruby Knight Vindicator by level 6, then take at least 5 levels in Psion (Shaper) with the class variant from The Mind's Eye that swaps your 5th level Psion bonus feat to be able to create a specific Astral Construct as a swift action by expending your psionic focus. Then take 10 levels in Metamind for Font of Power, and may as well go into Constructor too in order to beef up your Astral Constructs, long as you're getting to ML 17 or better. Grab Expanded Knowledge: Hustle (and take Temporal Acceleration as one of your powers known), and buy as many Nightsticks as you can. I have no idea how much money a 45th level character is supposed to have, but I'm sure it's a lot.

Activate Font of Power, use your X amount of turn undead attempts to gain X swift actions, using one of them to manifest Temporal Acceleration and divide the rest between your signature Astral Construct and Hustle to regain psionic focus (right, gotta take Psionic Meditation too, but who doesn't?). Send your thousands of astral troops off to do your fighting for you.

Silly and broken to be sure, but what isn't at 45th level?

Alternatively, Egoist 15 with Metamorphic Transfer, turn into a Phasm and then use its alternate form to become an Umbral Blot and proceed to disintigrate everything you come into contact with.

jiriku
2009-12-01, 01:40 PM
For the OP, we're kind of vomiting out build suggestions here, but I get the impression most of them aren't to your taste. Instead of giving you yet another build idea, let me offer you some design principles that can help you narrow down all these choices to the one you want.

Establish a race
At level 45, the race you choose has essentially zero impact on the playability of your character unless you play a monster or an undead, which doesn't seem to be your style. Therefore, you should make this choice entirely on the basis of what is most badass and suits your image of what the character looks and acts like.

Establish a signature attack
It sounds like you want to whack stuff with swords. So, you need the best sword you can get, preferably more than one. Think about what you want your sword to do. For example, a large-sized +7 vorpal keen throwing returning seeking vicious brilliant energy lifedrinker elven thinblade of wounding made from kaorti resin would be pretty good. That will deal 4d6+7 (15-20/x4), plus 2 negative levels and 1 point of Con damage, plus it crits a lot, cuts people's heads off, and if you can't get into melee you can throw it at people.

In fact, hell, why not get four of them, then get monkey grip, perfect multi-weapon fighting, and use a persistent girallon's blessing to grow extra arms to wield them? You'll get sixteen attacks with a full attack. Crits, negative levels, Con damage, and decapitations galore!

Perform your signature attack an abnormally large number of times on your turn
No, sixteen attacks isn't very much. Combine with belt of battle, island in time, swiftblade and factotum extra actions, haste, the white raven tactics and momentof alacrity maneuvers, and you should get at least 60 attacks on your turn, because you're taking an average of three full-round actions and three standard actions per turn.

Dude -- that's like 2,898 damage (JUST from the weapon), 336 negative levels, 168 Con damage, and 36 criticals, three of which are decapitations.

In one round.

You will kill everything with your four glowing blades of death. It will not be even remotely fair.

Make sure you can move and full attack repeatedly
factotum+swiftblade+belt of battle go a long way there, but you might want to also pick up travel devotion to and a class that turns undead so you can move as a swift action, along with ruby knight vindicator to take extra swift actions. And anything that makes you move fast is good, right? Swift-action teleports like knight's move are also pretty good for getting to grips with the enemy.

Make sure you can stay alive
Your swords level-drain you, so you'll definitely want a persistent death ward to protect you from that. And you need a lot of hit points, so buff your Con with like a +10 Con item. Make yourself immune to stuff. Persisted cleric spells are good for that. Boost your saves too, with, say, a +10 cloak of resistance. Whatever works for you.

Now build!
Now, having followed this design plan, you should have a good idea of the abilities you want, so just cherry-pick the classes, feats, spells, and items that get you what you want. It looks like warblade, eternal blade, factotum, cleric, and ruby knight vindicator are all helpful here, but it's really up to you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-01, 03:28 PM
Realistically speaking, I played a melee character from level 24-32, and I have no desire to play in an epic game again. It was an Illithid Savant, I had multiple Choker standard actions and Blink Dog teleports, with Pounce. He had the Goristro's two slams attack routine that counted as two-handed weapons with Improved Rapidstrike, etc. I think I could make about a hundred attacks every round, within about half a mile of where I started the round at, each attack dealing over 1,000 damage with charging Power Attack tricks. The first time I leveled up, it took an hour and a half to recalculate my damage per hit. Every level after that, I didn't even bother updating it. Epic level play is no more fun than mid-level play, there's just more paperwork and less room for error.

Ladorak
2009-12-01, 03:59 PM
Every level after that, I didn't even bother updating it. Epic level play is no more fun than mid-level play, there's just more paperwork and less room for error.

You were playing as one of the more broken Prestige classes... But I couldn't agree with you more. It's more work for less fun.
Plus at this level the party isn't even challenged by pretty much all the gods and Elder Evils, I don't really see the point.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-01, 06:09 PM
Ok so all this nonsense about class and no one has even mentioned the divine ranks?

1 salient divine ability per divine rank???(as per Deities and Demigods idk where else you stat out divine rank)

just a few for our melee man. alter size, alter form, alter reality, hand of death, wound enemy

really with just 4 of them you can be way too unfair even as a single class monk or fighter

I mean really anyone in your party has the option of looking at some one and making them die with no save every round.(seems kinda pointless to me)

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 06:28 PM
I mean really anyone in your party has the option of looking at some one and making them die with no save every round.(seems kinda pointless to me)That's what wizards do, and what fighters are supposed to do.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 07:03 PM
Hand of Death allows a save...Life and Death doesn't but it requires DvR 6. Still, Wish at-will with no XP cost is game-ruinous enough. Plus, they only work on mortals, so I'll bet most if not all of their enemies will have divine ranks too, and probably more of them.

Mongoose87
2009-12-01, 07:08 PM
Ok so all this nonsense about class and no one has even mentioned the divine ranks?

1 salient divine ability per divine rank???(as per Deities and Demigods idk where else you stat out divine rank)

just a few for our melee man. alter size, alter form, alter reality, hand of death, wound enemy

really with just 4 of them you can be way too unfair even as a single class monk or fighter

I mean really anyone in your party has the option of looking at some one and making them die with no save every round.(seems kinda pointless to me)

You forgot Irresistible Blows, which is Power Attack's best friend.

Signmaker
2009-12-01, 07:13 PM
Spelldancer

Finally someone mentions it. :smallsmile:

Abuse. Hard. Now you have a caster who is an uber fighter, and can do nothing but fight if you so wish. No one will complain about lack of martial levels when you're still able to air-punch craters.

Smiling Knight
2009-12-01, 07:25 PM
Out of curiosity, what can possibly challenge a party of 4 ECL 65 Gods?

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 07:27 PM
Out of curiosity, what can possibly challenge a party of 4 ECL 65 Gods?A level 20 wizard that's smarter than they are.

Smiling Knight
2009-12-01, 07:33 PM
Touche, sir.

But wouldn't the wizard need to be 21 for epic spells?
Edit- Never mind. He already has Gate.

Kylarra
2009-12-01, 07:34 PM
Out of curiosity, what can possibly challenge a party of 4 ECL 65 Gods?
A fiat penguin.

Ladorak
2009-12-01, 07:39 PM
A fiat penguin.

I don't know how much time it takes to make a Lv 65 character (I'll be honest, never made one... I mean, why?) but if I did devout (What I imagine to be) at least a sizable chunk of my weekend to it and the DM pulled this on me... I don't know if I'd laugh or cry or kill him... Probably all three, simultaneously.

I am very curious about what would be challenging this pack of retarded gods however, maybe you could keep us updated AGG?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-01, 07:41 PM
I'd accept it as my rightful comeuppance for daring to play a character higher than 30th level, let alone try making one.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-02, 12:00 AM
I have a question: Would a Warmage be a good choice? Multiclassed into Sorcerer, and one has a decent character. Granted, the warmage is the most useless character to ever exist, a well-designed one could be Melee and Magic

or would a Knight/Blackguard/Thayan Knight/Warblade/Ruby Knight be a better combo, considering a BAB thats good, some spells, high HD, and epic weapons and armor give this combo a deadly appearance of sheer terror

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 12:06 AM
I have a question: Would a Warmage be a good choice? Multiclassed into Sorcerer, and one has a decent character. Granted, the warmage is the most useless character to ever exist

Not by a long shot :smallsigh:

Draz74
2009-12-02, 01:35 AM
Not by a long shot :smallsigh:

... especially in Epic, where he certainly can find ten levels somewhere to blow on Rainbow Servant (and doesn't even have to worry if the DM rules that it's 6/10 casting progression).

Hawk7915
2009-12-02, 02:02 AM
Rather than harp on previous points (caster = win, silly to be playing at ECL 65, etc, etc), here's one idea...probably not perfect since I didn't do anything with your divine ranks and you have to pick all your maneuvers and stances, but...

Kratos, God of War
Maug Barbarian 25/Warblade 20
Feats:
1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack
12: Travel Devotion
15: Shock Trooper
18: Combat Brute
21: Mighty Rage
24: Damage Reduction (Barbarian Bonus)
24: Terrifying Rage
27: Heedless Charge
30: Tiger Blooded (Warblade Bonus)
30: Combat Expertise
33: Improved Trip
34: Improved Initiative (Warblade Bonus)
36: Knockdown
38: Blade Meditation: Iron Heart (Warblade Bonus)
39: Vital Recovery
42: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus)
42: Cleave
45: Great Cleave

- Far from optimal, but looking at your party it should do well enough. You have DR 10/-, 45d12 HD plus a huge con mod, you can fly into a rage for +8 STR and CON, you can rage for like all day and not get tired, and your rage is so scary that everyone is shaken just by looking at you while you are raging, and you knock people back or down when you hit them while raging or just when you hit them, you can use Travel Devotion to full attack after a charge and then you can Leap Attack + Shock Trooper on that charge to take like a -45 to AC and gain a +180 to damage or something stupid like that, and you can Sunder, Bull Rush, and Trip like a pro, and you can be in two stances at once, and you heal yourself for 48 each time you recover your maneuvers, and you get MOAR ATTACKS each time you kill someone, and you are a 20th level Warblade with all the maneuvers that implies.

Mongoose87
2009-12-02, 02:05 AM
Stuff

I can't help but notice: You took Shock Trooper twice. I'm gonna suggest something fun: Drop Great Cleave, it is teh lame, pick up Robilar's Gamibt and Improved Combat Reflexes, since we're already Shock Trooper-ing away all our AC.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 02:12 AM
You could try for a ranged beatstick.

Go Hulking Hurler with Bloodstorm Blade 10.

Warblade 20 / Bloodstorm Blade 10 / War Hulk 10 / Hulking Hurler 5

Throw a moon at everything within LOS as a standard action. Apply melee feats to it.

Hawk7915
2009-12-02, 02:25 AM
I can't help but notice: You took Shock Trooper twice. I'm gonna suggest something fun: Drop Great Cleave, it is teh lame, pick up Robilar's Gamibt and Improved Combat Reflexes, since we're already Shock Trooper-ing away all our AC.

Good points, although that 2nd Shock Trooper should be Improved Sunder (to qualify for Combat Brute), this build could lose that whole line and do the whole Robilar's Gambit style. But at that point, he should really be large or have reach (or both!), and then...well, yeah.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-02, 02:33 AM
Why has not one mentioned Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)?! As a stand alone it's a very nice AB boost with that 20 BaB and on a gish after figuring in Persistent Divine Power and Persistent Wraithstrike you're pretty much guaranteed to hit everything.



Kratos, God of War
Maug Barbarian 25/Warblade 20
Feats:
1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack
12: Travel Devotion
15: Shock Trooper
18: Combat Brute
21: Mighty Rage
24: Damage Reduction (Barbarian Bonus)
24: Terrifying Rage
27: Heedless Charge
30: Tiger Blooded (Warblade Bonus)
30: Combat Expertise
33: Improved Trip
34: Improved Initiative (Warblade Bonus)
36: Knockdown
38: Blade Meditation: Iron Heart (Warblade Bonus)
39: Vital Recovery
42: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus)
42: Cleave
45: Great Cleave


I find your lack of Improved Combat Reflexes disturbing.

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 02:58 AM
What about a psychic weapon master + disciple of dispater + other un-updated effects that stack improvements on crit range?

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 03:00 AM
Have we suggested a 1-20 crit range lightning maces build yet? That could be fun, and at level 45, infinite damage per attack is a requirement, not cheese.

Jothki
2009-12-02, 03:43 AM
Pun Pun.

Duh.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 03:49 AM
Pun Pun.

Duh.

Pun Pun is actually on the low end of the power scale, if you rule he can only give himself Divine Rank 0. He'd just be very flexible.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 07:33 AM
Pun Pun is actually on the low end of the power scale, if you rule he can only give himself Divine Rank 0. He'd just be very flexible.

Wouldn't having nigh infinite stats and levels beat being a lesser deity? I mean, Salient Divine abilities are strong (well, a few of them are), but they don't autopass saves, and pun-pun has infinite multispells and infinite spell slots, after all. He'll just cast SoDs until you... well, die.

hamishspence
2009-12-02, 07:37 AM
Some SLAs don't allow saves.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 07:40 AM
Wouldn't having nigh infinite stats and levels beat being a lesser deity? I mean, Salient Divine abilities are strong (well, a few of them are), but they don't autopass saves, and pun-pun has infinite multispells and infinite spell slots, after all. He'll just cast SoDs until you... well, die.

Infinite wishes alone can do darn near anything. Pun Pun is started with 2 wish spells. Precede it with Polymorph and any creature with wish access can be Pun Pun.

Quietus
2009-12-02, 09:13 AM
Infinite wishes alone can do darn near anything. Pun Pun is started with 2 wish spells. Precede it with Polymorph and any creature with wish access can be Pun Pun.

Need it be pointed out that Wish can replicate Polymorph?

Oops. I just did.

Signmaker
2009-12-02, 10:35 AM
Have we suggested a 1-20 crit range lightning maces build yet? That could be fun, and at level 45, infinite damage per attack is a requirement, not cheese.

2-20, you mean. Unless you take 11, or have some method to generate an infinite number of luck feats and requisite swift actions to spam Better Lucky Than Good and therefore repeat Lightning Mace even on fumbles.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-02, 10:38 AM
Or have Divine Rank 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics) or higher, which they do.


Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.

Signmaker
2009-12-02, 10:39 AM
Or have Divine Rank 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics) or higher, which they do.

Oh hey, never noticed that before. Cool.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-02, 10:40 AM
And it's one of the least crazy things gods can get up to. Seriously, I always laugh when people post about god-killing builds or DM's throwing gods at them, because....no. Just no.

Signmaker
2009-12-02, 10:43 AM
And it's one of the least crazy things gods can get up to. Seriously, I always laugh when people post about god-killing builds or DM's throwing gods at them, because....no. Just no.

Obviously, these builds have saves for things that don't allow saves.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 05:03 PM
Pun Pun does, in fact, have arbitrary amounts of everything... and with infinite initiative, he gets his infinite multispell routine off before the gods. He wins!

jiriku
2009-12-02, 05:21 PM
I have a question: Would a Warmage be a good choice? Multiclassed into Sorcerer, and one has a decent character. Granted, the warmage is the most useless character to ever exist, a well-designed one could be Melee and Magic

or would a Knight/Blackguard/Thayan Knight/Warblade/Ruby Knight be a better combo, considering a BAB thats good, some spells, high HD, and epic weapons and armor give this combo a deadly appearance of sheer terror

These builds have some potential! For example, a warmage 5/radiant servant 10/abjurant champion 5/warblade 15/swiftblade 10 can spontaneously cast any warmage spell and any cleric spell, has access to all the best warblade maneuvers, can use persistent divine metamagic, and has a caster level of 22 and an initiator level of 30. That gives you lots of options, both for protecting yourself and your friends, and for stomping the bad guys.

Knight and Thayan knight aren't so hot, but a warblade 20/blackguard 10/ruby knight vindicator 10 is real good, and if you spent the last 5 levels on knight or Thayan knight, it really wouldn't hurt anything, although Occult Slayer would probably be worth more to you.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-02, 05:31 PM
These builds have some potential! For example, a warmage 5/radiant servant 10/abjurant champion 5/warblade 15/swiftblade 10 can spontaneously cast any warmage spell and any cleric spell, has access to all the best warblade maneuvers, can use persistent divine metamagic, and has a caster level of 22 and an initiator level of 30. That gives you lots of options, both for protecting yourself and your friends, and for stomping the bad guys.

Knight and Thayan knight aren't so hot, but a warblade 20/blackguard 10/ruby knight vindicator 10 is real good, and if you spent the last 5 levels on knight or Thayan knight, it really wouldn't hurt anything, although Occult Slayer would probably be worth more to you.

Occult slayer is good, and allows some sweet nips on it. I do like Thayan knight for the flavor of being a Red Wizard's [insert profane term for a female dog here], though they have thier own benefits. I also considered the following:

Race: Szarkai (Albino Drow from DotU)
Class: Crusader of Corellion 10/Swordsage 10/Warblade 10/Master of the Nine 5/Eternal Blade 10

basically, EVERY maneuver from ToB and another elf character.

As for the second of my ideas, I thought an Anarchic Half-Shadow Dragon Duegar or a Hellbred could fill the void racially.

Note: and I think you meant "Rainbow Savant", not "Radiant Servant"

jiriku
2009-12-02, 05:45 PM
Erm, yeah, rainbow servant. We worship the Great Skittle God.

The albino drow is a good build too. Swordsage gets you a broad array of utility maneuvers, while tacking Mo9 onto your warblade progression lets you refresh a huge pile of maneuvers with the warblade's superior refresh mechanic.

Either race could go well for your Thayan knight. I kind of like the hellbred, since binding demons is something traditionally associated with the red wizards. Half-dragons are cool too, but a duergar is too small to get wings, which IMO is what makes the half dragon template really cool.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-02, 05:56 PM
Erm, yeah, rainbow servant. We worship the Great Skittle God.

The albino drow is a good build too. Swordsage gets you a broad array of utility maneuvers, while tacking Mo9 onto your warblade progression lets you refresh a huge pile of maneuvers with the warblade's superior refresh mechanic.

Either race could go well for your Thayan knight. I kind of like the hellbred, since binding demons is something traditionally associated with the red wizards. Half-dragons are cool too, but a duergar is too small to get wings, which IMO is what makes the half dragon template really cool.

But on a random dice roll, I can get wings...

and I meant the half-dragon on Hellbred as well.

Lol skittle god.

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 06:11 PM
Obviously, these builds have saves for things that don't allow saves.

Or just don't stay dead.

Ladorak
2009-12-03, 09:39 AM
The lightning mace trick was mentioned earlier... This is my halfarsed attempt to showcase it to the OP.

Divine abilities: Alter size and shape. (You wanna change into a Chronotynyn from the Fiend Folio. It gets an extra full round action every turn.) Also you can now become Colossal at will, with all the reach and 140 movement that that implies.

Levels required:
Barbarian one (Lion pounce variant) 1 = Complete Champion. For Pouncing
Warblade 20 =Tomb of Battle. You need Apitude and Time Stands Still. Some counters that can be useful. I suppose you might get some mileage out of Raging Mongoose... Maybe. Otherwise useless
Totomist 1 = Magic of Incarum (This isn't actually the best way to do this, but I'm lazy. Basically you get another two arms)
Disiple of Dispater 8 = Book of Vile Darkness (Because crits are your friend)

And 15 levels in whatever you want...

Feats required:
Disiple of darkness, combat expertise, power attack (DoD requirements)
Combat reflexes, two weapon fighting. Weapon focus (Anything) (Lightning mace requirments)
Lightning Mace (Complete warrior)
Improved Critical
Greater multiweapon fighting (And so imp and ordinary multiweapon fighting)

And any other feats you like...

Ok, so now you get full attack on the charge, and can take three full actions a turn (With Time stands still, or two without). You get 13 attacks with each full action.

With weapon Apitude Lightning Mace can become lightning anything... In this case Lightning Rapier or Scimitar. Each time you threaten a crit, you get an extra attack.

With Imp crit that 18-20 becomes 15-20. Level 8 Disiple of Dispater triples this crit range to 3-20. Add psionic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) you can get that down to 1-20


You can hit anything within 30 feet. You can hit 39 foes in one turn. Roll over a 3 and get another attack on them, and another and etc

This is hardly the ideal example of Appitude Lightning mace, but maybe it'll inspire you...

Person_Man
2009-12-03, 10:22 AM
Has anyone actually played such a high level campaign before and had combat make any sense whatsoever? Everyone is so ridiculously god-like, I can't imagine combat lasting more then one round.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-03, 10:33 AM
Has anyone actually played such a high level campaign before and had combat make any sense whatsoever? Everyone is so ridiculously god-like, I can't imagine combat lasting more then one round.

Pretty much. One could say that if you don't kill it in 1 round, it's TPK. Because you are level 45 and the kobold you are facing is Kurtulmak.

If you are lucky.

Amphetryon
2009-12-03, 10:52 AM
With Imp crit that 18-20 becomes 15-20. Level 8 Disiple of Dispater triples this crit range to 3-20. Add psionic weapon master you can get that down to 1-20I congratulate you if you've got a DM that allows threat ranges to stack in this manner; it seems to deviate from the RAW.

ex cathedra
2009-12-03, 10:52 AM
With Imp crit that 18-20 becomes 15-20. Level 8 Disiple of Dispater triples this crit range to 3-20. Add psionic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) you can get that down to 1-20

I'm fairly sure that that's not how math works in D&D.

Additionally, Olo recently created a much more effective way of doing this at ECL13. It was quite a sight.

Ladorak
2009-12-03, 12:06 PM
I congratulate you if you've got a DM that allows threat ranges to stack in this manner; it seems to deviate from the RAW.

Lol, like I would ever try doing something like this... I like D&D

Mongoose87
2009-12-03, 12:20 PM
Class: Crusader of Corellion 10/Swordsage 10/Warblade 10/Master of the Nine 5/Eternal Blade 10



Make sure you switch Swordsage and Warblade, so you can get full BaB (Assuming Crusader of Corellion Lanthorn gives full BaB).

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-03, 12:49 PM
Lol skittle god.Well, that certainly gives the phrase "taste the rainbow" a whole 'nother flavor altogether...

Voidhawk
2009-12-03, 02:01 PM
Well, that certainly gives the phrase "taste the rainbow" a whole 'nother flavor altogether...

I'm in game at the moment (later tonight as a matter of fact!) which is DnD adapted for a vaguely modern setting, with all the guns, grenades, and assorted awesome that brings, and Our Glorious Leader DM has ruled that a various modern chemicals can be substituted for spell reagents.

Guess what the reagents for Prismatic Spray are? :smallbiggrin:
...more than one bad guy has died to the words "Taste the rainbow, @$%#!"

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-03, 04:49 PM
I'm in game at the moment (later tonight as a matter of fact!) which is DnD adapted for a vaguely modern setting, with all the guns, grenades, and assorted awesome that brings, and Our Glorious Leader DM has ruled that a various modern chemicals can be substituted for spell reagents.

Guess what the reagents for Prismatic Spray are? :smallbiggrin:
...more than one bad guy has died to the words "Taste the rainbow, @$%#!"

I laughed so hard I thought I was gonna throw up...

Thats it! I'm being a Rainbow Savant and adding that to my sig.

TY bro. TY!

Signmaker
2009-12-03, 05:24 PM
I'm fairly sure that that's not how math works in D&D.

Additionally, Olo recently created a much more effective way of doing this at ECL13. It was quite a sight.

AKA He nuked himself. It was HILARIOUS.

Doc Roc
2009-12-03, 08:05 PM
Possibly the single funniest gaming story I have, in fact.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-04, 04:14 PM
I think I have a good one:

One time, we were running a campaign, where the DM said "Illusions don't make noise" so we could make listen checks to see if it was an illusion. (Note: NOBODY was a caster. All melee and one non-magic paly) So we make it thru the dungeon, all the way to the Necromancer/Cleric at the end. We lay a smacketh down on him, and he flees. We chase him this steep hill. I'm, at the time, a Grey Elf Warblade/Eternal Blade, and in this case, the leader. I lead the party up the hill where a Half-Troll Half-Giant is standing next to the necro. We charge up the hill, when the Necro shouts, "You'll never take me alive! this tomb will be your grave, fools!" The troll then shoves what looks like a boulder. I make a listen check. Dead silent. So I shout, "It's an illusion!" Well....I was wrong. An anticlimactic TPK and I was never allowed to be party leader again.