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Laurellien
2009-12-01, 01:26 PM
If you use extend spell or persistent spell on vigour, does it continue to work after the stated limit of 15 rounds?

Ganurath
2009-12-01, 01:31 PM
The metamagic feats alter the duration, so yes. After all, it's possible to deal more than 30 damage with an Empowered Kelgore's Firebolt (which is 1d6 per caster level, max 5d6,) so it makes sense that a duration booster should lengthen beyond the maximum.

Darkfire
2009-12-01, 03:15 PM
No it doesn't as explicitly stated in the main FAQ:

The vigor series of spells (CD) raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the Extend Spell feat?
Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spellís duration, but only up to the spellís listed maximum duration. Use either the normal maximum duration or the doubled duration, whichever is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend Spell on her vigor spell, the duration could not increase beyond 25 rounds.

Myrmex
2009-12-01, 03:20 PM
FAQ is meaningless in a RAW discussion. The only relevant material from WotC post-publication is errata.

jseah
2009-12-01, 03:23 PM
No it doesn't as explicitly stated in the main FAQ:
The quote implies that metamagic feats cannot break caster level caps.

Which results in the silly conclusion that empower doesn't work on fireball.

Unless they're saying extend spell is special in this regard?

Douglas
2009-12-01, 03:24 PM
That FAQ ruling is utterly silly. Extend Spell does not "double duration to the same maximum", it "doubles duration". "1 round/level, maximum 25" doubled is "2 rounds/level, maximum 50". Similarly, Persistent Spell replaces the entire "Duration:" entry in a spell's header block, and that is where the maximum is stated. The maximum gets overridden just as completely as the "1 round/level" part of the line.

Kantolin
2009-12-01, 03:25 PM
That's... actually a rather weird response by the FAQ, since I think that means Extend spell in most cases doesn't /do/ anything, nor does Persist if it's taken to connect to that.

Huh. O_o

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 03:25 PM
The quote implies that metamagic feats cannot break caster level caps.

Which results in the silly conclusion that empower doesn't work on fireball.

Unless they're saying extend spell is special in this regard?

Empower doesn't increase the amount of dice. It increases the damage that each die does.

Douglas
2009-12-01, 03:33 PM
Empower doesn't increase the amount of dice. It increases the damage that each die does.
Ok, so use the same logic with Energy Admixture. A Fire Admixed Fireball does not have the same 10d6 cap as a normal Fireball, it has a cap of 20d6. Anything else is absurd, yet that's the kind of "logic" that FAQ entry is endorsing.

Any metamagic feat that affects a particular aspect of a spell also affects any caps to that aspect in exactly the same way. The cap as listed is for the base unmodified spell, not for every conceivable metamagic modification as well.

Perhaps a better example would be Augment Healing. By the same logic as this FAQ entry, Cure Light Wounds cast by a level 5 cleric with Augment Healing would cure 1d8+5 hp rather than 1d8+7. I am quite certain that is neither RAW nor RAI.

ocdscale
2009-12-01, 03:42 PM
A much simpler explanation is that the Vigor line might have a very specific restriction on its duration*. I don't have access to it at the moment, but can anyone check?

*As opposed to the normal type of restriction: You get Xd6 per CL (maximum Yd6)
In this type of restriction, it's can easily read as a restriction on the normal progression of the spell. If you have a metamagic feat that said "all your spells that do damage do an additional 2d6 fire damage" I think it's fairly uncontroversial that a fireball could do 12d6 fire damage.

How does the restriction on Vigor read?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-01, 03:47 PM
Keep in mind, Extend Spell even works on Creeping Cold, which grows more powerful each round, so I see no reason it shouldn't work on Vigor.

Douglas
2009-12-01, 03:54 PM
How does the restriction on Vigor read?
Exactly the same as the one of Fireball's damage dice. "10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 25 rounds)"

jseah
2009-12-01, 03:54 PM
How does the restriction on Vigor read?
Duration: 10 rounds + 1 round / level (max 15 rounds)

No mention in text apart from a no-stacking clause. (that 2nd casting overlaps duration)

ocdscale
2009-12-01, 04:14 PM
Well, then this is quite peculiar. I can't think of a good argument why Extend Spell isn't permitted to exceed a 'soft' maximum spell duration like the one described.

The only argument for not permitting Extended Vigor I can think of is you have to just say "Duration is different," which isn't a great argument from a game mechanics standpoint.

Regardless of how the argument about Extend, I think douglas has an unassailable argument regarding Persistent Spell.

For what it's worth, I don't think Energy Admixture is a good counter example, although Augment Healing might be. Someone can argue "Fireball says the maximum is 10d6 fire damage, doing 10d6 fire and 10d6 sonic does not contradict that." Not that I think it's a great argument, but just throwing it out there. Edit: I thought Energy Admixture requires you add a different type of damage? Anyway, besides the point.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-01, 04:19 PM
By RAW:

(10 Rounds + 1 round/level) is the duration.

(Max 15 rounds) is the maximum duration allowed.

So, we use extend.

(20 rounds + 2rounds/level) is the new duration.

(Max 15 rounds) is the maximum allowed.

Increasing current duration does not increase maximum.

Let's look at healing.

Say a spell cures 3d8+15 hp. The rolls yield a result of 28.
It targets someone with 110 hp, and a max hp of 120.
He heals to 120, not 138? Why? Because modifying a current statistic doesn't alter the maximums.

You can argue precedent from admixture, but admixture states that it works in that function in the example.

Douglas
2009-12-01, 04:36 PM
I really don't think that is a valid comparison. With a healing spell, the maximum is clearly separate from the quantity being altered. With Vigor, the maximum is a part of what is being altered.

Vigor's duration is not "10 rounds + 1 round/level" with a maximum of 25 rounds noted elsewhere, it is "10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 25)". The entire line, maximum included, is part of the duration description. That entire line, maximum included, is therefore what gets doubled by Extend Spell. That entire line, maximum included, is also what gets replaced by Persistent Spell.

Person_Man
2009-12-01, 04:47 PM
FYI, if your goal is good combat healing, you might want to consider the Hellreaver PrC (Fiendish Codex II) which can heal 10, 20, or 30 hit points per round (depending on your Hellreaver level) to itself or any Good ally within a short range every round of combat as a Swift Action. The Crusader (Tome of Battle) also has a metric ton of various healing/DR/temporary hit point abilities.

Grushvak
2009-12-01, 04:49 PM
With that in mind, are Vigor and Mass Vigor good spells to DMM Persist?

mikeejimbo
2009-12-01, 05:03 PM
With that in mind, are Vigor and Mass Vigor good spells to DMM Persist?

I believe they are decent.

Douglas
2009-12-01, 05:04 PM
With that in mind, are Vigor and Mass Vigor good spells to DMM Persist?
In an arena? Maybe. In a campaign? If your DM allows it and has more than one or two encounters per day, they are among the best options available.