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John Cribati
2009-12-01, 07:10 PM
Hi there. Some of you may remember me from a Monk/Rogue multiclass discussion a few months back. I'm back with another idea. I shall never give up on the monk and its wasted potential! Never!!!

My Idea: Monk/Wizard. Specifically, Wizard with staff.Getting into close range elicits a bonk on the head.

Awesome, no?
And now I wait for my idea to be shot down.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-01, 07:12 PM
Use Carmendine Monk

Tavar
2009-12-01, 07:13 PM
So, what exactly does the monk give you?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-01, 07:15 PM
Int bonus to AC, 2 hit points, a power level closer to the rest of the party (that's a big part), and 2 skill points.

Signmaker
2009-12-01, 07:15 PM
So, what exactly does the monk give you?

Useful base saves, useful AC bonus if combined with Carmendine Monk. Depending on the scenario, it MIGHT be worth the lost caster level. Might. Frankly depends on intended level of play and intended casting strategy.

Snails
2009-12-01, 07:17 PM
I believe there is a solid Monk/Sorceror PrC, and a feat to use Cha to power some of your Wis Monk abilities. On top of the obvious avenues for buffing, there are feats for converting spells into melee bonuses. It is an interesting avenue, albeit not an easy one for a player to manage due to the bookkeeping.

Eldariel
2009-12-01, 07:26 PM
Enlightened Fist with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius (Carmendine Monk is strictly better but Setting-specific to Forgotten Realms) is obviously the way to go. E. Fist even gets some decent spells. Then just take a few levels of Incantatrix, Arcane Disciple: War (or anything with Divine Power), persist a buffton of buffs and go to town with your Arcane Strike + Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike + Greater Magic Weapon + Bite of the Werebear + company and deal epic damage. Or do the same without Incantatrix, Quickening Divine Power each fight (and repreparing it with Pearl of Power IV or that stupid whatsitsname Wizard-specific spell).

It's decent. Not as good as a real Wizard, but yeah, you can smack people in the head with staves. Especially Ki Focus staves that deal ~lotsd8 damage. Heavy Ki Focus Quarterstaff for bonus points. Don't forget to go to town either. You also get some arcane channeling-like ability and can pick up another one with Smiting Spell so channel Split Ray Twinned Enervations and Disintegrates alongside your boomboom.

Thurbane
2009-12-01, 07:55 PM
How about Monk/Duskblade/Enlightened Fist with Carmendine/Kung Fu Genius? Not as tough as a straight Duskblade, but is it workable?

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 02:19 AM
Enlightened Fist with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius (Carmendine Monk is strictly better but Setting-specific to Forgotten Realms) is obviously the way to go. E. Fist even gets some decent spells. Then just take a few levels of Incantatrix, Arcane Disciple: War (or anything with Divine Power), persist a buffton of buffs and go to town with your Arcane Strike + Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike + Greater Magic Weapon + Bite of the Werebear + company and deal epic damage. Or do the same without Incantatrix, Quickening Divine Power each fight (and repreparing it with Pearl of Power IV or that stupid whatsitsname Wizard-specific spell).

It's decent. Not as good as a real Wizard, but yeah, you can smack people in the head with staves. Especially Ki Focus staves that deal ~lotsd8 damage. Heavy Ki Focus Quarterstaff for bonus points. Don't forget to go to town either. You also get some arcane channeling-like ability and can pick up another one with Smiting Spell so channel Split Ray Twinned Enervations and Disintegrates alongside your boomboom.


This. This and this and this.

eepop
2009-12-02, 02:24 PM
I'm planning this for our trailblazer game if we keep up with it for long enough. The changes they made actually allow for it to work pretty well. Still not as good as a wizard 20, but good enough and can cover some of the holes in a monk's abilities.

Monk 11/Wizard 2/Fighter 7

Random notes:
---Carmendine monk obviously
---weapon Kata: Falchion
---Trade wizard familiar for immediate action thing from PHB2 - Transmutation is probably the best since it works well with your increased movement speed.
---Full Flurry (with Falchion due to Weapon Kata).
---Can power attack while flurrying with 1 BA -> 2 damage return rate.
---Can cast level 2 wizard spells. Spell slots 5/4/4/4/3/2/1 plus bonuses for specialist wizard and intelligence bonus gives 5/6/6/6/5/4/3. Can only use second level spells in the higher slots though.
---Mostly keep to spells that are rotes (Most single-target spells with a duration of 1 min/level or less.) That gives you 6 first level wizard spells and 24 second level wizard spells each combat.
---Wraithstrike is the obvious spell you want the most for combat, but there are also several others that expand your other abilities nicely.
--- Swift Spell Metamagic feat. TB also allows for metamagic on the fly, so you can swift everything you have each combat since your 30 spells should be enough to cover anything you might need.
--- Caster Level 11.
--- Improved Crit or Keen gives 15-20 critical threat.
--- Weapon Expertise x2 from fighter levels can increase critical multiplier to x4.


Roleplay is that he is a once Noble Djinn that was stripped of his power and banished from the City of Brass.

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing for those who haven't seen Trailblazer yet. If it was, go check out Trailblazer now, cause its awesome.

Among other things, it makes even just a small splash in casting help close the caster-non-caster gap a good bit. Its 3E so of course the gap is still there, but you can afford to hang with the big boys by just investing a couple levels instead of all the levels you need to sink in baseline 3.5 to do the Incantrix/Arcane Disciple/Enlighted Fist stuff, etc.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 02:39 PM
It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.

- Giacomo

ps: eepop, how do you get 11th level spellcasting with the build?

Prime32
2009-12-02, 02:45 PM
ps: eepop, how do you get 11th level spellcasting with the build?I'm guessing that he's using a houserule which gives spellcasters ToB-style multiclassing.

It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.Giacomo, because I'm in a weird mood I'm going to ask you how a monk 20 is better than a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat.

UglyPanda
2009-12-02, 03:00 PM
It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.That argument is unsound.

It's not the other classes and feats making the Monk better, it's the Monk dragging down the other classes and feats.

It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?

Prime32
2009-12-02, 03:02 PM
It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?Depends on whether you take Chicken-Infested. :smallwink:

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 03:02 PM
Giacomo, because I'm in a weird mood I'm going to ask you how a monk 20 is better than a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat.

Well, outside core with plenty of prestige classes that advance both a monk's and other class (like spellcastiong) abilities, why should a level 20 monk remain the benchmark?
I've always only argued about a broad balance for core classes and the combinations therein. But outside core?
The monk2/psychic warrior 18 could be better done than any monk20 build, or even - gasp - full spellcasters or - double gasp - an unarmed swordage variant with a generous DM.:smallwink:
But I leave that to others to answer that, since I lack most companions and rules outside core.
The only thing I know is that you can easily outside core with a level 20 monk do about 1000 damage/round with awesome stealth skill bonuses and near-epic defenses. That's enough for most playing purposes, I daresay.

- Giacomo

edit:


It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?

No, the comparison should rather be: if you add a (possibly broken and unbalanced) non-core element to a core element, will it make the core element more powerful? Yes.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 03:07 PM
No, the comparison should rather be: if you add a (possibly broken and unbalanced) non-core element to a core element, will it make the core element more powerful? Yes.This implies that everything in Core is balanced. Yep, wizards casting wish through simulacrums of clones of astral projections are way more balanced than say, duskblades. :smalltongue:


The monk2/psychic warrior 18 could be better done than any monk20 build, or even - gasp - full spellcasters or - double gasp - an unarmed swordage variant with a generous DM.:smallwink:
Are you implying that an unarmed swordsage is stronger than a full spellcaster? :smallconfused: And that's like saying that I could beat Mike Tyson in a fist-fight if he had his eyes closed and wasn't allowed to move.

But I leave that to others to answer that, since I lack most companions and rules outside core.So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

The only thing I know is that you can easily outside core with a level 20 monk do about 1000 damage/round with awesome stealth skill bonuses and near-epic defenses. That's enough for most playing purposes, I daresay.I would like to see this build.

UglyPanda
2009-12-02, 03:12 PM
I only said Psion as an example. My argument is exactly the same whether you substitute Bard, Wizard, or even Monk.

I do not wish to get caught up in trivialities.

If I gave a Monk a level of Commoner, is the build making the Commoner better or the Monk worse?

And your argument is starting to confuse me. First you say that you don't understand how Monks can be underpowered if you use non-core, then you accuse non-core of being overpowered and refuse to use it. Which is it?

sofawall
2009-12-02, 03:16 PM
I would like to see this build.

It's called Pun-Pun.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 03:31 PM
It's called Pun-Pun.Pazuzu gives out wishes to monks now? Besides, I should point out if 1000 damage/turn is the highest anyone has gotten in theoretical optimisation of monks ever, that there are barbarian builds with damage outputs so high that they had to invent new forms of notation to describe them.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 03:34 PM
This implies that everything in Core is balanced. Yep, wizards casting wish through simulacrums of clones of astral projections are way more balanced than say, duskblades. :smalltongue:

Duskblades are non-core.
And yes, I maintain that core classes are balanced - but that is for a different thread. Currently I'm doing some playtesting and also check the playtests of others. Will comment more when I've collected more evidence.

Are you implying that an unarmed swordsage is stronger than a full spellcaster? :smallconfused: And that's like saying that I could beat Mike Tyson in a fist-fight if he had his eyes closed and wasn't allowed to move.

No, I'm not implying that. There could be swordsage builds that powerful, but I do not know that. Outside core, I do not dare to make comments about what class combo is most/more powerful as a rule.

So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

But they playtested it and it came out remarkably well-balanced. I can only argue about balance in core, outside core it would only be coincidence (and/or good DMing) when a balanced result comes up - because the companions released are all optional, by themselves, and were never meant to provide be a full new system.

I would like to see this build.

It's fairly simple. Get 20 attacks and ability to move and full attack (can be done with various methods, my favourite being a belt of battle, flurry and TWF tree plus haste effect). Do 50 dmg on each hit, which is fairly easy for a monk since the base unarmed damage/hit caps can be pushed to 24d8 with greater mighty wallop and other size damage dice boosts (Person_Man has done a guide on this somewhere here on the boards).
Add the many monk's defenses and lvl 20 wbl items on top and you're set. Possibly achieve near-single-ability focus via intuitive attack feat (WIS for attack bonus).

And...


I
If I gave a Monk a level of Commoner, is the build making the Commoner better or the Monk worse?

And your argument is starting to confuse me. First you say that you don't understand how Monks can be underpowered if you use non-core, then you accuse non-core of being overpowered and refuse to use it. Which is it?

Again, you use the wrong comparison. Of course, when you give a pc class level to an npc class, it makes the npc class build better. Npc classes are not balanced to be as powerful as the pc classes in core.

The argument should not be confusing.
I do not understand how monks can be considered underpowered when there are so many things possible with it that can be used to reach absurd power levels for the monk. It does not matter for most game play purposes, I daresay, if the x/y combo then does 2000 damage/round instead of the monk level 20 possibilities I outlined.
At the same time, I strongly suspect that in general, the non-core rules contain broken/unbalanced material, because all of those rules are optional and follow completely different goals by their designers/makers than keep the game balanced.

- Giacomo

Prime32
2009-12-02, 03:53 PM
Duskblades are non-core.
Um... you seem to have missed the point I was making. I asked if a character who cannot die is more balanced than a duskblade.


And yes, I maintain that core classes are balanced - but that is for a different thread. Currently I'm doing some playtesting and also check the playtests of others. Will comment more when I've collected more evidence.
Um...


So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

But they playtested it and it came out remarkably well-balanced.
They playtested it with wizards who used only blasting spells and clerics who only healed (you know, rather than casting one of their many insta-death spells). They didn't use half the stuff in the books, and the Stormwind Fallacy was all over the place.

Who said it was "remarkably well-balanced"? They playtest splats too - they in fact have the benefit of more playtesting.


I can only argue about balance in core, outside core it would only be coincidence (and/or good DMing) when a balanced result comes up - because the companions released are all optional, by themselves, and were never meant to provide be a full new system.
Wait... coincidence? Would you prefer if they were mandatory? How could they be anything other than optional? They can't force you to use a book - they can't even force you not to make up your own rules and say you're playing D&D. The designers have said themselves that things in Core are unbalanced, and later books include fixes and clarifications to Core rules.


I would like to see this build.

It's fairly simple. Get 20 attacks and ability to move and full attack (can be done with various methods, my favourite being a belt of battle, flurry and TWF tree plus haste effect). Do 50 dmg on each hit, which is fairly easy for a monk since the base unarmed damage/hit caps can be pushed to 24d8 with greater mighty wallop and other size damage dice boosts (Person_Man has done a guide on this somewhere here on the boards).Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, haste only applies once, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB which must be used while standing still. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.
Base monk damage/lv20 - 2d10
+ INA (unarmed strike) - 4d6
+ Wizard aid in the form of Greater mighty wallop - 4d10
+ Wizard aid in the form of Enlarge person - 8d6
Average damage=8d6=(8x3.5)=28


Add the many monk's defenses and lvl 20 wbl items on top and you're set. Possibly achieve near-single-ability focus via intuitive attack feat (WIS for attack bonus).You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.


Again, you use the wrong comparison. Of course, when you give a pc class level to an npc class, it makes the npc class build better. Npc classes are not balanced to be as powerful as the pc classes in core.Umm... :smallconfused: I'll leave this one to the guy who originally asked.


The argument should not be confusing.
I do not understand how monks can be considered underpowered when there are so many things possible with it that can be used to reach absurd power levels for the monk. It does not matter for most game play purposes, I daresay, if the x/y combo then does 2000 damage/round instead of the monk level 20 possibilities I outlined.There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".


At the same time, I strongly suspect that in general, the non-core rules contain broken/unbalanced material, because all of those rules are optional and follow completely different goals by their designers/makers than keep the game balanced.Wait, what? :smallconfused: You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 04:07 PM
I'll kill any monk you make with a wizard of two levels lower. I do think monk is actually fairly high tier five, but.... It's still tier five.

Heck, I'll kill any melee monk you make with a caster built using monk levels in some sophisticated and cool way.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 04:07 PM
They playtested it with wizards who used only blasting spells and clerics who only healed (you know, rather than casting one of their many insta-death spells). They didn't use half the stuff in the books.

Well, I doubt that they never playtested and discussed all aspects of the game.

Wait... coincidence? Would you prefer if they were mandatory? The designers have said themselves that things in Core are unbalanced, and later books include fixes and clarifications to Core rules.

Of course I'd not like if the non-core rules were mandatory. What gave you that idea when I maintain that non-core is likely unbalanced? The new rules are optional - and not designed for balance, but for fluff, and provide new ideas.
And while I'm saying that the core rules are broadly balanced, they certainly were not without mistakes- so errata and clarifications are OK.

Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.

With 24d8 per hit, you'll also get to 1000 damage without a belt of battle. And I did not mean dual-wielding, but taking to full-round attacks with a belt of battle.
Finally, a wizard is never needed for those buffs since there are items and feats that can do all this, in particular outside core.

You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.

No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).

There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".

Exactly my point.

Wait, what? :smallconfused: You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

As outlined above: fluff and new ideas (say, for character concepts and specific campaigns).

- Giacomo

Edit:

I'll kill any monk you make with a wizard of two levels lower. I do think monk is actually fairly high tier five, but.... It's still tier five.

In core? Because outside core, it could well be the case (with celerity and all that).

- Giacomo

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 04:10 PM
In core, Gia. You know full well the dark breadth of my abilities.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 04:10 PM
No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).
At the level you get it at, it is poor.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 04:15 PM
In core, Gia. You know full well the dark breadth of my abilities.

You do realise that a wizard going against a 2 levels higher monk would also have much lower wbl for items?
And do not underestimate my abilities either.... :smallbiggrin:


At the level you get it at, it is poor.

At level 15 (and possibly even lower)? I do not think so.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 04:17 PM
At level 15 (and possibly even lower)? I do not think so.


Optimized barbarians hit harder.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 04:19 PM
The new rules are optional - and not designed for balance, but for fluff, and provide new ideas.
No.


Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.

With 24d8 per hit, you'll also get to 1000 damage without a belt of battle. And I did not mean dual-wielding, but taking to full-round attacks with a belt of battle.
Finally, a wizard is never needed for those buffs since there are items and feats that can do all this, in particular outside core.
How do you get to 24d8? Besides, even if you can hit 1000 damage, you can only do that once per day by burning all the belt's charges at once, and in that case you can't move while doing it. Your original claim was 1000 damage per round, while moving.


You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.

No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).Except that greater mighty wallop, etc. are not class features of the monk class, and anyone can use them. Or they can get the damage through easier means and use the extra money for other stuff.


There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".

Exactly my point.:smallconfused:



Wait, what? :smallconfused: You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

As outlined above: fluff and new ideas (say, for character concepts and specific campaigns).That isn't true at all. Look at the Rule Compendium, please. How is that about fluff and new ideas? And there are many concepts which just can't be done in Core, like armoured mages. Then there's things like the psionic classes, which are much better-balanced than Vancian classes, with less powerful options but more flexibility in how they use each one (and are also easier to use, IMO).


In core? Because outside core, it could well be the case (with celerity and all that).

- GiacomoGiacamo, I hardly ever play casters and I am confident that I could do this. I would also do it with a druid.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 04:19 PM
Optimized barbarians hit harder.

Non-core? I don't know. In core? They should, since the monks have more special abilities.

- Giacomo

Prime32
2009-12-02, 04:23 PM
Non-core? I don't know. In core? They should, since the monks have more special abilities.

- GiacomoGiacamo, a spell is a special ability. Look at the number of spells a 20th-level sorcerer knows of each level. Add them together. Now add his familiar. That's how many class features he has - 44. And his 2nd-level spells do the same things as monk capstones, but better (assuming he doesn't get a very cheap item for it).

Now do the same thing with a 20th-level wizard. Open to the spells section of the PHB, to the Wiz/Sor section. He has every one of those as a class feature, and a familiar and bonus feats.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 04:29 PM
No.

OK, different opinion.

How do you get to 24d8? Besides, even if you can hit 1000 damage, you can only do that once per day by burning all the belt's charges at once, and in that case you can't move while doing it. Your original claim was 1000 damage per round, while moving.

As I illustrated, 24d8 damage times 10 means 1000 damage. No belt of batle needed. 24d8 is colossal size damage plus improved natural attack feat for 2d10 (the monk's level 20 unarmed damage). The monk can get 4 size increases to colossal size damage with greater mighty wallop.

Except that greater mighty wallop, etc. are not class features of the monk class, and anyone can use them. Or they can get the damage through easier means and use the extra money for other stuff.

Yes, but this kind of item benefits the monk most since he starts out with much higher base damage than any kind of weapon can provide. And if you can do it more easily, please show it.

That isn't true at all. Look at the Rule Compendium, please. How is that about fluff and new ideas? And there are many concepts which just can't be done in Core, like armoured mages. Then there's things like the psionic classes, which are much better-balanced than Vancian classes, with less powerful options but more flexibility in how they use each one (and are also easier to use, IMO).

Rules compendium? That is ONE out of all the extra books churned out by WoTC for 3.5 that are devoted to character concepts or campaign styles. I do not know it - is it full of core updates not already known, or full of rules summaries of all the non-core stuff?
Anyhow, the non-core psionic classes MAY be better balanced. I doubt it. Should be playtested (there is even a monk prestige class in there, I think).

Giacamo, I hardly ever play casters and I am confident that I could do this. I would also do it with a druid.

2 levels lower in core or just same level in core? Doc Roc would be the first to duel ... he sort of challenged first :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Edit:

Giacamo, a spell is a special ability.

No, it is not. A special ability is either spell-like, extraordinary or supernatural. Spellcasting is a class ability.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 04:32 PM
Except that greater mighty wallop, etc. are not class features of the monk class, and anyone can use them. Or they can get the damage through easier means and use the extra money for other stuff.

Yes, but this kind of item benefits the monk most since he starts out with much higher base damage than any kind of weapon can provide. And if you can do it more easily, please show it.
Titan Bloodline, from the SRD. Plus greater mighty wallop. You can now dual-wield warhammers which deal damage as three size categories above Colossal, for the cost of three levels rather than 20 (which also grant you some minor Str bonuses and stuff). And they are easier to enchant. Or you can get base damage one step lower than monk 20 with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat.


Should be playtestedThis is the one thing which got me. What do you mean "should be playtested"?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 04:32 PM
Isn't spellcasting an (Ex) ability?

Faleldir
2009-12-02, 04:34 PM
Giacomo, how can your theoretical Monk 20 have full WBL if he depends on multiple consumable items for damage?

Ganurath
2009-12-02, 04:38 PM
Giacamo, I hardly ever play casters and I am confident that I could do this. I would also do it with a druid.If this talk goes anywhere, I want to be the one who runs the Monk.

Back On Topic: If I may make a suggestion as to the race, might I suggest either Fire Elf or Fire Hobgoblin from Unearthed Arcana? The latter is better overall what with the relative +4 Con, but the curse of Hobgoblin LA strikes again. If LA buyoff is an option, though, I'd go with Fire Hobgoblin.

Suggestion: Monk 2 / Immediate Magic Transmuter 3 (barring Enchantment and Evocation) / Enlightened Fist 10 / ??? 5

You'll want Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level, and I strongly encourage finding ways to reduce the metamagic cost of Quicken Spell on True Strike. If you're willing to go the sorcerous route instead, you'll want Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC and a dip in Hexblade for Cha to saves coupled with Mettle to match the Monk's evasion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 04:40 PM
If this talk goes anywhere, I want to be the one who runs the Monk.
Swing by the Test of Spite and I'll fight you now. Make a core only level 15 monk if you want, at 28 pb.


Suggestion: Monk 2 / Immediate Magic Transmuter 3 (barring Enchantment and Evocation) / Enlightened Fist 10 / ??? 5
Abjurant Champion, of course!

Prime32
2009-12-02, 04:40 PM
If this talk goes anywhere, I want to be the one who runs the Monk.I thought it would be more meaningful if Giaco ran it himself...

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 04:41 PM
This is the one thing which got me. What do you mean "should be playtested"?

It is difficult to tell how well-balanced psionics rules are unless you do extensive playtesting with just core and psionics, which I hardly saw anywhere.


Isn't spellcasting an (Ex) ability?

No, to my knowledge it is not a special ability, but a class ability. Special abilities are defined in the PHB, although I guess at one point or another (maybe the FAQ?) feats were considered (ex) special ability for gaming purposes (for instance, whether they function in an AMF).


Giacomo, how can your theoretical Monk 20 have full WBL if he depends on multiple consumable items for damage?

I think you mean whether a level 20 monk with consumable items would have those on top of wbl. Of course not. They would be deducted from his wbl, like all other items (although for some consumable items, the DMG assumes they are not counted in wbl, i.e. daily expenses and the occasional CLW).

- Giacomo

ps: seconding Ganurath here - the thread should get back to topic. In case anyone wants to discuss this issue further, he/she can start a new thread or we can move over to the Test of Spite ...

Signmaker
2009-12-02, 04:44 PM
It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.

Dippable != Balanced

Though I will admit, I prefer a monk dip over a fighter dip.

And I think the issue your threads always had was the immediate adhesion to core-only rules. You might have had a stronger case out of core, when the monk was presented with far more versatility in build choice.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 04:49 PM
Just to make things interesting, I suggest that Giacamo's monk be allowed the white dragonspawn template for free (generally regarded as one of the most ridiculously overpowered templates ever written). That will double his speed, give him more natural attacks and access to 1st-level spells. The wizard is still restricted to Core.

Signmaker
2009-12-02, 04:58 PM
Just to make things interesting, I suggest that Giacamo's monk be allowed the white dragonspawn template for free (generally regarded as one of the most ridiculously overpowered templates ever written). That will double his speed, give him more natural attacks and access to 1st-level spells.

That sounds fair, but only for higher levels of wizard. I was going to initially suggest 4th level casting for the wizard as a minimum, because wizard starts to rev up at that point while the monk's initial gusto starts to die out. With the dragonspawn, you're going to want to give the wizard a higher starting level.

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 05:03 PM
The issue is I don't think it will prove anything. I just finished a similar challenge against Godna which resulted in a no contest victory and less than 10% resource loss. Except I was seven levels lower. Number of people influenced by such a victory:
Two.

Prime32
2009-12-02, 05:05 PM
The issue is I don't think it will prove anything. I just finished a similar challenge against Godna which resulted in a no contest victory and less than 10% resource loss. Except I was seven levels lower. Number of people influenced by such a victory:
Two.Giacamo, do you agree to make the cheesiest, most overpowered monk build possible for this challenge?

I suggest that every time someone dies, they are immediately affected by true resurrection and a tick is placed next to their name. After both participants have died at least once we count up the ticks.

Boci
2009-12-02, 05:36 PM
OK, different opinion.

Do you have anything to back up your opinion that splat books were made for fluff not balance?

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-02, 05:54 PM
Do you have anything to back up your opinion that splat books were made for fluff not balance?

Do you have anything to back up that splat books were made for balance? I'd argue that a splatbook that allows, for instance, celerity, or is only full of new spell ideas can be considered providing fluff, but definitely not balance.:smallsmile:


Giacamo, do you agree to make the cheesiest, most overpowered monk build possible for this challenge?

I suggest that every time someone dies, they are immediately affected by true resurrection and a tick is placed next to their name. After both participants have died at least once we count up the ticks.

Hm. You may wish to think up something with Doc Roc, and I'll do a corresponding monk build (no dragonspawn template or whatever necessary. PHB race is just fine). Although I'd agree to Doc Roc that the extent of proof for anything from this will be limited. Will go to bed now.

- Giacomo

Siegel
2009-12-02, 05:54 PM
I'll kill any monk you make with a wizard of two levels lower.

Human Monk 1 ?

(i think this is trolling... maybe)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-02, 05:55 PM
The issue is I don't think it will prove anything. I just finished a similar challenge against Godna which resulted in a no contest victory and less than 10% resource loss. Except I was seven levels lower. Number of people influenced by such a victory:
Two.

Would a link be possible to provide?

Doc Roc
2009-12-02, 05:59 PM
Human Monk 1 ?

(i think this is trolling... maybe)

Outside core, and depending on certain rulings, I can do that, sure.

Boci
2009-12-02, 06:14 PM
Do you have anything to back up that splat books were made for balance?

ToB, EPH, Magic of Incarnum, ToM. Surely if you think core is balanced the extra spell options of the wizard are calcelled out by the extra options to melee.


I'd argue that a splatbook that allows, for instance, celerity, or is only full of new spell ideas can be considered providing fluff, but definitely not balance.:smallsmile:

So 3 spell out of the whole PHII and the spell compendium is your evidence? What about feats made to hurt casters, like the mage killer tree from Complete arcane, or the feats for throwing weapons from complete warrior?



Hm. You may wish to think up something with Doc Roc, and I'll do a corresponding monk build (no dragonspawn template or whatever necessary. PHB race is just fine).

How much freedom do you want with custom magical items?

Bakkan
2009-12-02, 06:21 PM
Human Monk 1 ?

(i think this is trolling... maybe)

If we ignore the minimum LA line on the Incarnate Construct template (Savage Species) for this discussion, then an Incarnate Construct Warforged Wizard 1 has an effective ECL of -1, at least for the purposes of discussion. Could be interesting.

eepop
2009-12-03, 03:31 PM
ps: eepop, how do you get 11th level spellcasting with the build?

Because Trailblazer is AWESOME.

It detached spells/day from classes and made it based off of a Base-Magic-Bonus. Monk and fighter give 1/2 Base-Magic-Bonus in the same manner that Wizards give 1/2 Base-Attack-Bonus in stock 3E.

So 18 levels of Monk/Fighter is 9 Base-Magic-Bonus, plus 2 levels of Wizard for 2 more Base-Magic-Bonus = 11 Base-Magic-Bonus total.

So you look at the spells chart to see how many spells you get for a BMB of 11.

Its kind of fiddly, but it works out very well.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-03, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the hint!
What source is that from?

- Giacomo

Asbestos
2009-12-03, 10:21 PM
The new rules are optional - and not designed for balance, but for fluff, and provide new ideas.
And while I'm saying that the core rules are broadly balanced, they certainly were not without mistakes- so errata and clarifications are OK.


:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

"Were not without mistakes" is quite an understatement about Core. I have a random question here, Giacomo, when did you start playing 3.x D&D? As in, how long ago?

awa
2009-12-03, 10:48 PM
how is the monk getting to size colossal in core? (This seems to be the basis of the massive unarmed damage)
I know this was mentioned a while ago but i just cant figure it out most size increasing affects don't stack.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-03, 10:48 PM
Long enough. No need to imply insults. If you really need clarification on Giacomo's thoughts, look at his previous threads. Two of which ended in flame wars.

I'm not fond of Giacomo (because I disagree with him. :P), but I don't question his experience/competence/etc.

awa
2009-12-03, 10:51 PM
this should probably be its own thread also i would like to see how the monk vrs wizard fight turns out.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-03, 10:53 PM
Long enough. No need to imply insults. If you really need clarification on Giacomo's thoughts, look at his previous threads. Two of which ended in flame wars.
More than just two, from what I hear.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-03, 11:16 PM
Well, I only classed the ones that were locked as "ending" in the flame war. The others had cases of flaming, but didn't seem to be exactly fatal.

Asbestos
2009-12-04, 07:23 PM
Long enough. No need to imply insults. If you really need clarification on Giacomo's thoughts, look at his previous threads. Two of which ended in flame wars.

I'm not fond of Giacomo (because I disagree with him. :P), but I don't question his experience/competence/etc.

Actually, I think his experience IS worth questioning. Its possible he has just been playing games that are greater than two standard deviations from the average 3.x experience as in, Monks are somehow powerful, Core is considered balanced, and Wizards aren't god-kings of all creation.

Doc Roc
2009-12-04, 07:28 PM
I'm not fond of Giacomo (because I disagree with him. :P), but I don't question his experience/competence/etc.

I also do not question his general competence, though I do disagree with him on some very fundamental grounds, which we have discussed privately at length across at least two forums. :)

If I felt he wasn't worth my time, I wouldn't offer challenge. :)

Arakune
2009-12-04, 07:31 PM
Actually, I think his experience IS worth questioning. Its possible he has just been playing games that are greater than two standard deviations from the average 3.x experience as in, Monks are somehow powerful, Core is considered balanced, and Wizards aren't god-kings of all creation.

I know about those types. The classic rule 0 argument is the most common form of defense, but they forget the fact that the need to use it means the rules aren't all that balanced per se, but need to be house rulled/banned in order to work.

It's like ostrich strategy*, you burry your head in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist/hope it goes away by itself.

*real ostrich doesn't burry their head when scared, no matter how saturday cartoons tryied to tech

Pluto
2009-12-04, 09:38 PM
Regarding the OP, Monk 1/Wizard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 (levels rearranged in a reasonably sensible order) was one of my favorite core builds to play.
Requires very high stat rolls before even deserving consideration, but if you ever get enough 14+'s...


edit:
Core. Core is important.