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View Full Version : Problem 2: From Theurge to... Puddles?



Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:27 PM
Running a 3.5 D&D game, and a player doesn't believe me when I tell him that Mystic Theurge is a massive trap. I'd really appreciate if anyone could post evidence to back up my point, because while I don't want to tell him no outright, the game is going to be very difficult...

Edit:
Long story short, he wants to be a water mage now. He's trusting me with the build. Not necessarily blasty. Effective Suggestions needed.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 10:29 PM
Let him learn.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-01, 10:30 PM
It won't be too horrible, I suppose, if he plays smart. Still a caster, after all, even if a severely underpowered one. The learning won't be too hard.

ocdscale
2009-12-01, 10:30 PM
"Proof" is difficult, just lay out the facts:
Ask him to show his proposed build to you. Put it side by side with a 20 Wizard or 20 Cleric.
Compare when each gets new spell levels, focus on the level range where the campaign will run.
Let him know that for all his 'flexibility', he's still casting the same number of spells per round.

Basically:

For example, a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 3 (nine character levels) can only cast 3rd-level divine and arcane spells. A character with nine levels of wizard or cleric, however, can cast 5th-level spells.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060908a

You might have more spells per day, and a greater variety. 5th level spells vs 3rd level spells? And again, he's still only casting one spell (or two) a round. The variety/spells per day won't matter nearly as much as making those rounds count.

Milskidasith
2009-12-01, 10:31 PM
If he doesn't understand optimization, convincing him that a Mystic Theurge is a trap will require teaching him all of the things that are assumed; higher level spell slots are worth far more than more spell slots, melee sucks, contingency rocks, etc. (Well, OK, maybe only the first one needs to be taught for the MT).

If he understands optimization, just tell him that your spell slots are crap.

Also, you could point out that, by the time he gets 2nd level spells, there are probably mass versions of whatever he can cast as third or fourth level spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 10:31 PM
Let him learn.Darwin at work.

Let him make a theurge, but let him get in on those early-entry shenanigans.

Then again, if done right, a theurge may be very powerful. Thing is, it has to focus on those no-save and save-AND-lose spells and utility. It CAN be done properly, but something makes me think this isn't really the case here.

yilduz
2009-12-01, 10:32 PM
It depends on the character, I think.

Also, there are some crazy feats that grant the ability to cast 2nd level spells at level 1; so if he were to take 3 levels of wizard, then dip one of Cleric and go with one of those crazy get-a-second-level-spell-immediately feats, then they're only missing out on one level of wizard spells.

Besides, the character's role could make a huge difference. If he's more of a utility character, it may not be as much of a problem.

Of course, if you're trying to be the main divine caster, or main arcane caster (especially), it's probably not a good idea... at all.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:32 PM
Darwin at work.

Let him make a theurge, but let him get in on those early-entry shenanigans.

Then again, if done right, a theurge may be very powerful. Thing is, it has to focus on those no-save and save-AND-lose spells and utility. It CAN be done properly, but something makes me think this isn't really the case here.

Probably not. He wants to be a BLASTER THEURGE.

Edit: Also, he's supposed to be the main Divine Caster/Healer.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 10:34 PM
Probably not. He wants to be a BLASTER THEURGE.Oh. Ohhhh dear.

Would he be happier playing a cerebremancer, or even just a psion? They're better at blasting, and he'd only have to focus on his Intelligence score.


Edit: Also, he's supposed to be the main Divine Caster/Healer.So long as you give him wands, and he does the healing out of battle, he'll be fine.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:36 PM
Oh. Ohhhh dear.

Would he be happier playing a cerebremancer, or even just a psion? They're better at blasting, and he'd only have to focus on his Intelligence score.

Probably not.
If anyone remembers one of my earlier friends, this is the same guy who thinks that only core is balanced and that Fighters are a top tier class. Getting him to actually try a caster was hard enough.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 10:37 PM
Probably not. He wants to be a BLASTER THEURGE.

Edit: Also, he's supposed to be the main Divine Caster/Healer.

Just let him suck.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 10:39 PM
This is sounding like what needs to be a trial-by-fire situation, and by fire, I refer to the fire damage that he won't be putting out.

erikun
2009-12-01, 10:39 PM
I would recommend a "Theurgelike" class, such as Arcane Heirophant or Fochlucan Lyrist, with Mystic Thurge after it. Alternatively, allow him to take Mystic Thurge for over 10 levels. Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Thurge 14 wouldn't be that bad.

Beyond that, your player needs to know that higher level spells = better. From there, pointing out that he'll only have 2nd level spells at 7th level, and one class will forever be stuck at caster level 13, will point out the problems.

It really isn't terrible, actually. They will have lots of spells, and can do an excellent job at buffing the party. They can also throw out some decent blasting spells. They just won't be as effective compared to a full caster.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 10:40 PM
Just let him suck....But...

...that'll 'prove' that fighters are better!

Also, if he wants to be both a healer and a blaster, either use an ardent with the appropriate mantles from CPsi, or a generic caster from the SRD.

Lord Thurlvin
2009-12-01, 10:40 PM
Probably not. He wants to be a BLASTER THEURGE.

Edit: Also, he's supposed to be the main Divine Caster/Healer.

Then he should definitely not be one. He'll be behind in access to the heal spells, and his blasting spells will be useless against monsters with SR. I know this from experience.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:42 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.

Bibliomancer
2009-12-01, 10:44 PM
...But...

...that'll 'prove' that fighters are better!

Also, if he wants to be both a healer and a blaster, either use an ardent with the appropriate mantles from CPsi, or a generic caster from the SRD.

Not if he's defeated by a wizard of half his level.

erikun
2009-12-01, 10:45 PM
Can we see them? I'm curious. Perhaps he's forgetting that he can only cast one spell a turn.

More seriously, if the guy is insistent on playing a Thurge, let him play a Thurge. It's not like the world will explode if he is unoptimized.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-01, 10:46 PM
Probably not.
If anyone remembers one of my earlier friends, this is the same guy who thinks that only core is balanced and that Fighters are a top tier class. Getting him to actually try a caster was hard enough.

My son is not yet three years old, & apparently he can do math better than your poor deluded friend. That is so much evidence to contradict his absurd opinions that it hardly worth enumerating them.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 10:47 PM
Probably not.
If anyone remembers one of my earlier friends, this is the same guy who thinks that only core is balanced and that Fighters are a top tier class. Getting him to actually try a caster was hard enough.
Invite him to the Test of Spite. I'd like to mind crush him.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 10:48 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.He shouldn't be spending more than about 4 spell slots per encounter in any case. By the time he hits level 6 he should never be running out of spells.

It seems that the guy is sore about not playing a fighter, so he's trying to upset you.

Just let him do what he wants, and occasionally ask if the fact that he's using up more resources to heal the party and to blast during a fight (since each spell doesn't have the punch that higher level spells with higher caster levels would) is worth having more low-level resources to waste in such a manner.

yilduz
2009-12-01, 10:48 PM
Not if he's defeated by a wizard of half his level.

Half his level is unlikely. Even if he goes Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1, half his level rounded up would be 4. His character would be able to cast all the same spells as the opposing Wizard, but have more health, higher saves, and healing spells if things got really bad. Beyond that, it gets worse for the wizard of half his level. Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10 is level 16, so he'd cast spells as a level 13 Wizard. A level 8 Wizard wouldn't even come close.

ocdscale
2009-12-01, 10:48 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.

I don't even need to see his proof to tell you the flaw in it.
He's assuming combat lasts infinite rounds. (MT gets to unload all the spells)

Ask him to compare the damage in a 3 round combat. In a 5 round combat. In a 10 round combat.

But I agree with the consensus in this thread. Let him play the MT. Chalk it up as a learning experience.

Arakune
2009-12-01, 10:50 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.

Does he have metamagic reducers? DMM cheese to quicken for free?

Even if the answer is no (it is), you could play a nice theurge type class if you managed to slap action economy in the face and told her to be his [email protected]#.

Then again, any caster that can do that will be better than a theurge but at least he can put those extra spells slots to work.

Edit: Remember him to take praticed spellcaster to catch up at least caster levels, or else the blasting will suck even more.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:51 PM
I'd show you, but it's more of him yammering over the telephone than actually being online.

I suppose I'll let him do it. This isn't a very rigid group anyway, so I can let him rebuild when he inevitably figures out his error...

It is sad that this guy is studying to be a Biochemist and cannot figure this out over me, a poor deluded LA Grad.

And I'll see about the Test of Spite. I dunno if he'll bite or not, Pharaoh.

Lord Thurlvin
2009-12-01, 10:52 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.

If he doesn't care about these, you're not going to be able to prove anything to this guy.

nightwyrm
2009-12-01, 10:52 PM
I cannot seem to convince him. He keeps giving me all these crazy borked out math equations that "prove" the superiority of more spells vs higher level.

Edit: And by prove he means that there's better probability of hitting, apparently. And every time I mention Caster Level, SR, and the fact that stronger spells hit more often, he seems to ignore it.

Remind him he's still only casting one spell per round. After a certain level, casters are limited by the number of actions they have and not by the number of spells they have. It doesn't matter if a caster have a million spells if the combat only lasts four rounds.

truemane
2009-12-01, 10:52 PM
Also, it's an important and sometimes overlooked fact that MT is only 10 levels. Even early entrance shenanigans can't counter that. You go Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10, and then what? You've got four more levels to fill. So you can either take two of each and cast at 15th/15th (just getting your first 8th level spells) while your 20th Cleric and 20th Wizard friends are casting Wish and Miracle and emulating all of your spells anyway.

Or take all four in one or the other and be Wiz13/Cleric17? Facing off against CR20 threats with Forceful Hand?

Also also, another oft-forgotten point: Wizard bonus Feats are like gold. Turn Undead is less like gold, but still.

Just point out that, at any given time, you are either one or two spell levels behind single-classed characters. Just show him the Monster Summoning tables for a quick look at how the power curve gets steeper as you rise in level. Ask him what a Fiendish Wolf (Monster Summoning II, all you can manage at 7th level) is going to do against a Young Red Dragon (CR7). Or two Trolls.

yilduz
2009-12-01, 10:53 PM
I don't even need to see his proof to tell you the flaw in it.
He's assuming combat lasts infinite rounds. (MT gets to unload all the spells)

Ask him to compare the damage in a 3 round combat. In a 5 round combat. In a 10 round combat.

But I agree with the consensus in this thread. Let him play the MT. Chalk it up as a learning experience.

I don't think he's thinking of spells per day, I think he's thinking of Spells, period.

Access to healing spells in addition to fireball is what he's after, it seems like.

What the issue looks like is that he is upset about being the healer because he doesn't get to do anything cool. He sits back, heals the fighter and protects the real mage.

Rather than letting him learn, or trying to use math to show that MT will not give him what he wants, try showing him an alternative. Are you allowing the insane divine feats? Maybe there are some PrCs that will dominate using the divine magic he already has.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 10:54 PM
What level are you starting at? Possible brute-force solutions vary. Also, who are the other team members, and how do they feel about their healer shooting himself in the foot?

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 10:55 PM
I am in fact allowing the insane divine feats, in fact I actually built him a Clericzilla to rampage with, figuring that I could deal.

He preferred this.

Also, the reason I'm asking for help is because, though I know that I'm right on this point, my math isn't so great...

^_^'

Edit: Starting at Level 5.

The party so far is
Wizard 5
Artificer 5
Warblade 5
Cleric 5 [Him. The game has already started with him like this, but he doesn't want to change. He's going into it at Cleric 5/Wizard 5.]

The other three are fairly optimized, and they don't know anything about this yet.

Edit again:

I also forgot, we had a Rogue sign up today, also level 5.

yilduz
2009-12-01, 10:58 PM
Then it'll simply have to come down to him learning on his own, although if he's like any of my friends in similar situations, he won't learn. Instead, the rest of the party will have to learn for him and fill all the roles themselves, allowing him to do whatever he wants without forcing the party to lack something they need.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 10:58 PM
Cleric 5 [Him. The game has already started with him like this, but he doesn't want to change. He's going into it at Cleric 5/Wizard 5.]

Wow. Tell him good luck.

Anyr
2009-12-01, 10:59 PM
You could just point him towards this thread and let him see for himself. The sheer unanimity of opinion could help to sway him even if facts, figures and basic logic won't.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 11:00 PM
Yeah, from the other players, once you tell them (the Wizard in particular) that the party healer has decided to generously cut his healing output by 50% so that he can help the Wizard make up for his clearly deficient blasting ability.

Douglas
2009-12-01, 11:00 PM
Cleric 5 [Him. The game has already started with him like this, but he doesn't want to change. He's going into it at Cleric 5/Wizard 5.]
Not Cleric 5/Wizard 3? How the hell is he justifying that?

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:03 PM
Yeah, from the other players, once you tell them (the Wizard in particular) that the party healer has decided to generously cut his healing output by 50% so that he can help the Wizard make up for his clearly deficient blasting ability.

The irony is that the Wizard player used Logic Ninja's guide as his bible in constructing it.

...Also, I don't know why he isn't going in at Wiz 3. I think he just wants to be symmetrical. It's like an OCD for him.

...He's going to be very butthurt when he meets Acererak, is all I can say.

erikun
2009-12-01, 11:06 PM
It is sad that this guy is studying to be a Biochemist and cannot figure this out over me, a poor deluded LA Grad.
Now, don't be like that. There are a lot of D&D options that seem like a good idea but really aren't. A sunder build to tear through doors and enemy armor? Not effective most of the time. Monk focusing on high Dexterity and Wisdom? Doesn't really get much beyond AC. Multipurpose spellcaster with dozens of lower level spells? Not as effective as a focused spellcaster with higher level spells.


Cleric 5 [Him. The game has already started with him like this, but he doesn't want to change. He's going into it at Cleric 5/Wizard 5.]
So, wait... you're letting him retire a level 5 character and bring in a level 10 character? No wonder he's so willing to play a Thurge!

Hey, can I retire my wizard for a Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer? :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:06 PM
The irony is that the Wizard player used Logic Ninja's guide as his bible in constructing it.

...Also, I don't know why he isn't going in at Wiz 3. I think he just wants to be symmetrical. It's like an OCD for him.

...He's going to be very butthurt when he meets Acererak, is all I can say.W...w...w...wait a minute.

This is the Tomb of Horrors?!

Okay, yeah. He'll be toast before the end of the first game session. Let him die, and encourage him to make a factotum or something.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:07 PM
Now, don't be like that. There are a lot of D&D options that seem like a good idea but really aren't. A sunder build to tear through doors and enemy armor? Not effective most of the time. Monk focusing on high Dexterity and Wisdom? Doesn't really get much beyond AC. Multipurpose spellcaster with dozens of lower level spells? Not as effective as a focused spellcaster with higher level spells.


So, wait... you're letting him retire a level 5 character and bring in a level 10 character? No wonder he's so willing to play a Thurge!

Hey, can I retire my wizard for a Wizard/Psion/Cerebremancer? :smalltongue:

Wait, no, I think you misunderstand. He's Cleric 5 now, going to multiclass the character 5 levels in Wiz, then taking the prestige class.

Edit:
Actually, I'm combining Return to White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and the original Ravenloft adventure into one campaign.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-01, 11:07 PM
Can you talk to the other players privately and conspire to knock some sense into him? All it'll take is a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability every couple of fights, upgrading to a normal Globe once his spells can break the Lesser Globe. Mix in a monster with decent SR into the in-between fights, so there's always something for him to flail uselessly against. Especially if you've got a Batman, you could throw SRidiculous beasties at them and he would be the only one screwed completely.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-01, 11:08 PM
...He's going to be very butthurt when he meets Acererak, is all I can say.

"Fear me! I can cast Fireball!"

"How cute. Slay Living."

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:10 PM
Edit:
Actually, I'm combining Return to White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and the original Ravenloft adventure into one campaign.Holy Christ on a lake of custard!

When you say 'difficult' you aren't joking around, are you.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:11 PM
Holy Christ on a lake of custard!

When you say 'difficult' you aren't joking around, are you.

No. No I'm not.
=3

I'm also throwing in a homebrew adventure that I made when, in a fit of boredom, I decided to make something more painful than the Tomb. So, yeah.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:13 PM
Maybe you should mention that you expect characters to die. A LOT. He needs to get to resurrection magic ASAP.

erikun
2009-12-01, 11:14 PM
Look at the plus side: If he dies enough, he'll be able to fully respec his whole character. :smallbiggrin: (Yeah, so 3.5e level drain doesn't quite work like that anymore. Indulge me.)

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-01, 11:14 PM
I don't really care how you handle the Theurge issue, but I'm formally demanding a campaign journal thread for this thing. :smallbiggrin:

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:14 PM
Maybe you should mention that you expect characters to die. A LOT. He needs to get to resurrection magic ASAP.

I actually don't allow Rezzing outside of Revivify and Quest oriented Resurrections.

^w^

Edit: But it could never be as epic as SilverClawShift.

yilduz
2009-12-01, 11:15 PM
I'm formally demanding a campaign journal thread for this thing. :smallbiggrin:

I second this.

tyckspoon
2009-12-01, 11:15 PM
Wait, no, I think you misunderstand. He's Cleric 5 now, going to multiclass the character 5 levels in Wiz, then taking the prestige class.


I doubt you'll actually have to wait for him to get up to taking Theurge to find out it sucks, in this case. Either he'll realize how painful it is to cut off his existing class progression and start all over, or he's completely oblivious and he'll stumble along secure in the knowledge that he is becoming more 'versatile' without actually gaining any power.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:16 PM
Also, I say again: let him rebuild himself (faster! stronger!) into an ardent or a generic spellcaster from the SRD. Either would allow him to blast and heal just fine. To be fair to the party wizard, though, either let him rebuild as well, or remove the generic spellcaster's bonus feats.

Then again, if he's a LogicNinja wizard vs a blaster/healer, maybe he won't need the rebuild after all. But it'd be a nice offer.

Or, maybe your cleric player could rebuild to a druid. Druids can blast and heal both.

Lord Thurlvin
2009-12-01, 11:16 PM
No. No I'm not.
=3

I'm also throwing in a homebrew adventure that I made when, in a fit of boredom, I decided to make something more painful than the Tomb. So, yeah.

At least he won't have to wait very long before getting the chance to make a new, more appropriate character.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-01, 11:17 PM
I actually don't allow Rezzing outside of Revivify and Quest oriented Resurrections.

^w^

Edit: But it could never be as epic as SilverClawShift.You, my dear, are a hardass.

I'd love to play a shaper/constructor in one of your games.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:17 PM
Also, I say again: let him rebuild himself (faster! stronger!) into an ardent or a generic spellcaster from the SRD. Either would allow him to blast and heal just fine. To be fair to the party wizard, though, either let him rebuild as well, or remove the generic spellcaster's bonus feats.

Then again, if he's a LogicNinja wizard vs a blaster/healer, maybe he won't need the rebuild after all. But it'd be a nice offer.

Or, maybe your cleric player could rebuild to a druid. Druids can blast and heal both.

I would have recommended Druid if he hadn't been insistent that he wanted to be the Healer. It's honestly amazing how he sabotages himself.

Edit:
I only ban rezzes and up the difficulty because I allow other cheese. I'm just very confident in my DM-Fu.

UglyPanda
2009-12-01, 11:19 PM
What are the odds that he'll blame the other players if he does poorly?

Ask him how he feels about higher level spells. If he doesn't realize that level 5s are better than 3s, he has issues.

Thajocoth
2009-12-01, 11:20 PM
Isn't there a feat that lets a multiclassed caster cast spells at their full level as long as the dip in the other class is at most 4 levels? Wouldn't that at least help him hit? Yeah, he won't have the higher level spells as early, but he'd hit with what he's got. I just can't remember it... And I'm too lazy to go look it up.

Honestly, if I ever played 3.5 again for some weird reason, I'd play a Theurge. (Sorcerer/Cleric)...

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:20 PM
What are the odds that he'll blame the other players if he does poorly?

Ask him how he feels about higher level spells. If he doesn't realize that level 5s are better than 3s, he has issues.

He probably won't. The whole group is actually very close. We've known each other since the crib.

Which is WHY I WORRY about him DX

cZak
2009-12-01, 11:21 PM
Why are you so determined to scuttle a player's choice of character? And one (supposedly) that is not over powered? :smallconfused:

Granted, MT does not get the spells notable for skewing a campaign as quickly; which I would think would be better for you. But, maybe the player is looking to play a character that can make the group shine. He won't be deciding combats, the other characters will; but he'll definitely be contributing. This seems more team-oriented play that a lot of posts complain 3.x lacks.

The MT is keen as the ultimate in party support; battle field control, buffs and medic. I've never been a fan of the 'blaster' character, seems a poor use of resources to me... I think he would be fine as a buffer/ healer for the group. Pick up the Augmented healing and that elven(?) feat that applies healing to all spell effects (can't remember it, from Races of Destiny or some such...)
His turning is gonna be pretty useless, but that just makes taking Divine feats more worthwhile.

And as far as optimization is concerned, the boards post exercises in THE BEST builds culminating at ~20th level. Personally, in 20+ years of gaming, I think I've reached that level of game maybe... twice.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:23 PM
Why are you so determined to scuttle a player's choice of character? And one (supposedly) that is not over powered? :smallconfused:

Because I'm running an EXTREMELY difficult game and I've forewarned them of this. Normally I wouldn't care.

Green Bean
2009-12-01, 11:25 PM
Why are you so determined to scuttle a player's choice of character? And one (supposedly) that is not over powered? :smallconfused:

Granted, MT does not get the spells notable for skewing a campaign as quickly; which I would think would be better for you. But, maybe the player is looking to play a character that can make the group shine. He won't be deciding combats, the other characters will; but he'll definitely be contributing. This seems more team-oriented play that a lot of posts complain 3.x lacks.

The MT is keen as the ultimate in party support; battle field control, buffs and medic. I've never been a fan of the 'blaster' character, seems a poor use of resources to me... I think he would be fine as a buffer/ healer for the group. Pick up the Augmented healing and that elven(?) feat that applies healing to all spell effects (can't remember it, from Races of Destiny or some such...)
His turning is gonna be pretty useless, but that just makes taking Divine feats more worthwhile.

And as far as optimization is concerned, the boards post exercises in THE BEST builds culminating at ~20th level. Personally, in 20+ years of gaming, I think I've reached that level of game maybe... twice.

Except that a) this is going to be an insanely tough campaign (Tomb of Horrors + even eviler homebrew) so he'll get the party killed and b) no matter how good Mystic Theurges are at buffing he's not playing a party support Theurge; he wants to be a blaster caster

Arakune
2009-12-01, 11:25 PM
Assuming 28 point buy for both (no reason to give him more) and 7th level.

Wizard 7 -> Str 8, Con 14, Int 18+1, rest 10.
He have +14 hp, +4 skill points at each level, +2 fortitude saves, +4 spells DC. He will also have access to 4th level spells, bonus spell slots from high inteligence (1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th). CL 7, a total of 4/5/4/3/2 spell slots.

Wiz 3/ Cle 3/ MT 1 -> Str 8, Int 16+1, Wis 16, Con 12, rest 10.
He have +7 HP, +3 skill points at each level, +1 fortitude saves, +3 will saves, +3 spells DC.
He will also have access to 2nd level spells from both lists, bonus spells slots from high inteligence and wisdom (1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd) for both sides. CL 4 for both sides, 4/4/3 and 4/4+1/3+1

If you count only 1st and above the strainght wizard will have a total of 14 spells slots to spare while the theurge will have 16 spell slots. Not that much of a diference, and the theurge don't have access to 3rd and 4th level spells. At this low level, excluding metamagic reducers/DMM, you get to toss one spell/round.

The wizard is tougher, have almost as much spells than the theurge, his spells DCs are higher, he doesn't need to improve both inteligence and wisdom, his CL is higher (the strainght wizard scorching ray, for example, fires two rays intead of one) and to add salt to the injury he is completly immune to any spells the theurge can cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm). The only thing the theurge have above the straing wizard is better saving throw, but anyone that multiclass could pull that off.

Any more questions?

Edit: One page ninja!

tyckspoon
2009-12-01, 11:26 PM
And as far as optimization is concerned, the boards post exercises in THE BEST builds culminating at ~20th level. Personally, in 20+ years of gaming, I think I've reached that level of game maybe... twice.

This is actually one of the other big strikes against practical application of a Mystic Theurge. It works best in the 10-15 range, when it has about half of its Theurge levels already and can look forward to the other half. If you're playing a lower level game, you're not a Theurge at all- you're just some schmuck who had a good thing going with casting and decided to stop it completely and start over again from the beginning. Welcome back to level 1! Only the things you're fighting need level 4-6 tools. Good luck with that.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:29 PM
This is actually one of the other big strikes against practical application of a Mystic Theurge. It works best in the 10-15 range, when it has about half of its Theurge levels already and can look forward to the other half. If you're playing a lower level game, you're not a Theurge at all- you're just some schmuck who had a good thing going with casting and decided to stop it completely and start over again from the beginning. Welcome back to level 1! Only the things you're fighting need level 4-6 tools. Good luck with that.

And given what the adventures are going to be like, actually getting to the line of semi-effectiveness will be nigh impossible.

Glimbur
2009-12-01, 11:32 PM
Isn't there a feat that lets a multiclassed caster cast spells at their full level as long as the dip in the other class is at most 4 levels? Wouldn't that at least help him hit? Yeah, he won't have the higher level spells as early, but he'd hit with what he's got. I just can't remember it... And I'm too lazy to go look it up.

Practiced Spellcaster. It helps some, in that it increases your CL, but it does not increase your spell access or spells/day. So it lets a Wizard 1/Fighter 4 cast a Burning Hands like a level 5 Wizard, but he gets spells/day like a first level wizard. Painful.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:33 PM
Practiced Spellcaster. It helps some, in that it increases your CL, but it does not increase your spell access or spells/day. So it lets a Wizard 1/Fighter 4 cast a Burning Hands like a level 5 Wizard, but he gets spells/day like a first level wizard. Painful.

Not completely useless on a Theurge, but...

Arakune
2009-12-01, 11:34 PM
Not completely useless on a Theurge, but...

You can show him my math if you like it :smalltongue:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-01, 11:39 PM
Arakune's math helps on the endurance front. On the versatility front, I suggest showing him Archivist. Then show him how many wizard (or just blasty in general) spells he can cast from all the divine spell lists and obscure domains.

Gorgondantess
2009-12-01, 11:41 PM
So, tell me, have you been DMing for this fellow long? It seems implied that you have. If so, have you always been this awesomely brutal with your players? And, if so, how did this guy not realize a long time ago that fighters are crap and that his ideas on optimization are completely.... insane?:smallconfused:

Thajocoth
2009-12-01, 11:42 PM
Practiced Spellcaster. It helps some, in that it increases your CL, but it does not increase your spell access or spells/day. So it lets a Wizard 1/Fighter 4 cast a Burning Hands like a level 5 Wizard, but he gets spells/day like a first level wizard. Painful.

Exactly. It doesn't fix it, but it helps somewhat... A Cleric 4/Sorcerer 4/Theurge X would have the spells and slots of a Cleric 4+X + Sorcerer 4+X, but they'd at least get to cast them with a CL of 8+X. So their spells still aren't as good... But they can at least hit with what they've got. That is, if they take it twice... Once for each class...

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:46 PM
So, tell me, have you been DMing for this fellow long? It seems implied that you have. If so, have you always been this awesomely brutal with your players? And, if so, how did this guy not realize a long time ago that fighters are crap and that his ideas on optimization are completely.... insane?:smallconfused:

Yes, yes, and stubbornness.

^_^

It's a characteristic of our whole group.

Edit:
Also, for anyone who is in here and still interested:
Campaign Journal sounds fun, but I've never done it before. Advice would be great.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-01, 11:54 PM
Also, for anyone who is in here and still interested:
Campaign Journal sounds fun, but I've never done it before. Advice would be great.

Basically, just record what happened during the game. I've seen some journals where people kept it all in character, which is nice, but I do enjoy seeing some OoC shenanigans, too.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:55 PM
Basically, just record what happened during the game. I've seen some journals where people kept it all in character, which is nice, but I do enjoy seeing some OoC shenanigans, too.

Is it really that simple?
Also- In character is hard from DM position

erikun
2009-12-01, 11:56 PM
I feel compelled to point out that Fighter are going to be pretty awesome if the party always dies before level 10. :smalltongue: Although I have no clue how high your campiagns tend to go.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-01, 11:57 PM
Warblade is still better.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-02, 12:00 AM
Is it really that simple?
Also- In character is hard from DM position

Pretty much, yes. Doing it in character would be difficult, unless you set it up by writing it in the third person or strictly OoC, but recommend against the latter.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:02 AM
It would be interesting, considering that all of my players have a playstyle ranging from "Retarded McGuyver" to "Completely Random"

The Benny Hill Theme springs to mind

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 12:03 AM
Yeah I was going to suggest showing Archivist to him, but he sounds like a Core-only guy so I don't know if that'll work with him. Another option is to give him the Magic domain and, between the party Artificer and whatever wands, scrolls and junk you want to provide as loot, he should be able to feel like a Wizard but without the painful waste of caster levels.

But really, what's his argument for how Magic Missile or Burning Hands are better than Holy Smite or Poison? (To say nothing of Divine Power, FoM, etc.) Does he even have a maxed out Int so the DCs on those low-level spells will at least be respectable?

Rogue 7
2009-12-02, 12:08 AM
he is completly immune to any spells the theurge can cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm).

Meaning no offense, but this is a gross exaggeration that I feel needs to be rectified. It's rounds per level. Now, I'm not saying that isn't a useful spell, but a 7-round duration is not particularly worrisome. Speaking as my party's wizard, I'd just pull back for enough rounds for it to wear off and then attack. Of course, my actual strategy would be to ask our Centaur barbarian whom I've Stoneskin'd and cast Keen Edge on his flaming burst falchion to go chop him into bits.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:08 AM
Yeah I was going to suggest showing Archivist to him, but he sounds like a Core-only guy so I don't know if that'll work with him. Another option is to give him the Magic domain and, between the party Artificer and whatever wands, scrolls and junk you want to provide as loot, he should be able to feel like a Wizard but without the painful waste of caster levels.

But really, what's his argument for how Magic Missile or Burning Hands are better than Holy Smite or Poison? (To say nothing of Divine Power, FoM, etc.) Does he even have a maxed out Int so the DCs on those low-level spells will at least be respectable?

> _ <

His Int is his second lowest stat! I didn't even consider that until just now!

Also he doesn't like Archivist. Tried it.
He also is feeding me an argument that Divine and Arcane magic must really stem from the same source, regardless of what the books say.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:08 AM
Best way to show him why it doesn't work is to have him in a party with a straight Cleric and a straight Wizard. Then he can wonder where his usefulness went. Hell, you could just point out that a higher level Cleric blasts better than Mystic Theurge. And for the source-matter...it may pay off to point out that D&D deities are real, tangible creatures, not some obscure "outside movers" that never appear, while arcane magic draws upon the...energy fields present. It sounds like he's just arguing for the sake of arguing tho. :smallsigh:

But yeah, this does demand a Campaign Journal. You've read SilverClawShift's so you already know what it requires; recount the adventures, especially the hilarious misadventures and WTFBBQs that occur, type them up preferably after the session and you're done! Then wait as the masses bask in the glory of your awesome as a DM and your party's horrible, horrible fate they're still happily failing to see right in front of your eyes, and fun will be had. :smallamused:

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 12:11 AM
Meaning no offense, but this is a gross exaggeration that I feel needs to be rectified. It's rounds per level. Now, I'm not saying that isn't a useful spell, but a 7-round duration is not particularly worrisome. Speaking as my party's wizard, I'd just pull back for enough rounds for it to wear off and then attack. Of course, my actual strategy would be to ask our Centaur barbarian whom I've Stoneskin'd and cast Keen Edge on his flaming burst falchion to go chop him into bits.

Are you kidding? 7 rounds per level is more than an entire combat. If your idea of a "weak" spell is one that forces you to not act for seven rounds (well, if you are a theurge), what is your idea of a strong one? Contingent Celerity, then casting a scrolled intensified timestop and then casting multiple no save, just die, ignores immunity, SR, and LoE spell and doesn't allow counterspelling spells?

I have literally never had combat last seven rounds, ever. Even counting the pure buff rounds for the ToS, I think the most I ever had was a total of 10 or 11 rounds (5 purely for buffing), and that was because my opponent had the same movement speed as me and HiPS, and I couldn't get him in range of my light sources long enough to smoke him.

deuxhero
2009-12-02, 12:13 AM
Archivist IIRC is either in a preview or excerpt. I'll find it.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:16 AM
Archivist IIRC is either in a preview or excerpt. I'll find it.

It's here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3). I don't think the problem was availability tho.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:16 AM
You know, it's a vicious cycle.
I want to read more stuff from you clearly amazing people, and so continue to post. XD

I think I'm going to let him Theurge and prepare for his inevitable death. See if it works as a learning exercise... Though I expect not.

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:17 AM
Meaning no offense, but this is a gross exaggeration that I feel needs to be rectified. It's rounds per level. Now, I'm not saying that isn't a useful spell, but a 7-round duration is not particularly worrisome. Speaking as my party's wizard, I'd just pull back for enough rounds for it to wear off and then attack. Of course, my actual strategy would be to ask our Centaur barbarian whom I've Stoneskin'd and cast Keen Edge on his flaming burst falchion to go chop him into bits.

Seven rounds is more than enough for most encounters (they usualy end at round 3~5), so the globe have more than enough time to protect the wizard.

If you are going batman, then the globe already did it's job of making you not laying waste at my head directly (and it is being more inteligent anyway). Things like sleep, color spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, readied magic missile to disrupt casting, acid arrow, glitterdust, blindness, fireball, hold person, (don't have at this level, he can't even dispell the globe) etc will have a hard time against him.

Did I mention the guy was a blaster?

Edit: MOAR ninja!

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 12:18 AM
> _ <

His Int is his second lowest stat! I didn't even consider that until just now!

That pretty well settles it then, though I suppose he could go Sorcerer but that'd be even sillier.


Also he doesn't like Archivist. Tried it.
He also is feeding me an argument that Divine and Arcane magic must really stem from the same source, regardless of what the books say.

Huh, that's kind of weird if he says that but then doesn't like Archivist, considering it's the arcane=divine class.

Oh well, either way, Magic Domain or that feat that gives UMD as a class skill will cover his wizardly wishes pretty well and still let him be a decently effective cleric.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:20 AM
That pretty well settles it then, though I suppose he could go Sorcerer but that'd be even sillier.



Huh, that's kind of weird if he says that but then doesn't like Archivist, considering it's the arcane=divine class.


I think the difference is that he thinks that the GODS don't actually exist.
Which is unfortunate for him, since I like optimizing cranky overdieties that like to screw with uppity adventurers.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:20 AM
You know, it's a vicious cycle.
I want to read more stuff from you clearly amazing people, and so continue to post. XD

I think I'm going to let him Theurge and prepare for his inevitable death. See if it works as a learning exercise... Though I expect not.

Actually, ask him to start with the logical entry of Cleric 3/Wizard 3 so he'll get to Mystic Theurge ASAP; that might enable him to see its suckiness before he dies a horrible death (unlikely, but hey!) and he should be easy to convince to do that since you can do math in levels; Cleric 5/Wizard 5 has those levels while Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 3 is a level 7 in both.

But yeah, Cleric 5 is a perfectly fine character so losing a level or two isn't gonna kill him meaning he'll learn nothing (though of course, he'll suck as a blaster), but Cleric 3/Wizard 2 is just meh, especially going Wizard 3.

Zovc
2009-12-02, 12:21 AM
You know, it's a vicious cycle.
I want to read more stuff from you clearly amazing people, and so continue to post. XD

I think I'm going to let him Theurge and prepare for his inevitable death. See if it works as a learning exercise... Though I expect not.

Have him start off as a Cleric 3/Wizard 3 (Yes, I know the party is level 5). Let him see how he is sub-par with an "extra level." Then let him continue leveling as if he was the same level as the party... see if he ever catches up.

Edit: or even let him "qualify for MT" at Wizard 2/Cleric 2, so he can start the game as a Wiz 2/Clr 2/MT 1.

Douglas
2009-12-02, 12:21 AM
His Int is his second lowest stat! I didn't even consider that until just now!
:smalleek:

And how low is that? Maybe he'll listen if you point out he won't even be able to cast level 2 wizard spells, or whatever the limit is for his intelligence.

What's his lowest stat, charisma?

Arakune
2009-12-02, 12:21 AM
I think the difference is that he thinks that the GODS don't actually exist.
Which is unfortunate for him, since I like optimizing cranky overdieties that like to screw with uppity adventurers.

Ateism in a GAME? Are he insane or something? Does he pretend the definition of god doesn't exist? Does he pretend the entry about gods in the books doesn't exist?

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:24 AM
:smalleek:

And how low is that? Maybe he'll listen if you point out he won't even be able to cast level 2 wizard spells, or whatever the limit is for his intelligence.

What's his lowest stat, charisma?

In terms of Stats, he's like... 10, 16, 17, 12, 18, 16.

Also, he's refusing to start multiclassed, so that's why Cleric 5. I've tried to warn him. Really.

As for the Gods thing, I think he just said that there was no real proof that they existed, and that magic didn't all stem from the same source.

...I kinda tuned that out.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-02, 12:32 AM
In terms of Stats, he's like... 10, 16, 17, 12, 18, 16.

Also, he's refusing to start multiclassed, so that's why Cleric 5. I've tried to warn him. Really.

As for the Gods thing, I think he just said that there was no real proof that they existed, and that magic didn't all stem from the same source.

...I kinda tuned that out.

Then throw done Deities and Demigods. If he doesn't bite then, he's probably just arguing for the sake of it. Or to get more power, which, at this point, is doubtful.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:33 AM
As for the Gods thing, I think he just said that there was no real proof that they existed, and that magic didn't all stem from the same source.

So, the fact an entity can appear before you, rip your face off, trap your soul and Mind Rape you into her willing servant afterwards isn't a proof enough of said entity's existence? Maybe he needs more tangible proof?

ocdscale
2009-12-02, 12:34 AM
In terms of Stats, he's like... 10, 16, 17, 12, 18, 16.

Also, he's refusing to start multiclassed, so that's why Cleric 5. I've tried to warn him. Really.

As for the Gods thing, I think he just said that there was no real proof that they existed, and that magic didn't all stem from the same source.

...I kinda tuned that out.

He's yanking your chain. There's no way he's really going into Wizard with a 12 in Int.

dspeyer
2009-12-02, 12:36 AM
He's going to be dying a lot, right?

Each time, encourage him to come back with a different wizard / cleric / MT combination. Hopefully this will teach him something. If his optimization doesn't improve, allow him wizard // cleric gestalt when he reaches the adventures climax. That'll probably bring him into balance with optomized characters.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 12:39 AM
In terms of Stats, he's like... 10, 16, 17, 12, 18, 16.

Also, he's refusing to start multiclassed, so that's why Cleric 5. I've tried to warn him. Really.

As for the Gods thing, I think he just said that there was no real proof that they existed, and that magic didn't all stem from the same source.

...I kinda tuned that out.

Where's his cleric getting power from?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-02, 12:44 AM
Where's his cleric getting power from?Well, there do exist clerics of causes here and there, and they tend to be more frequent on forums for some reason, specifically clerics of causes that include planning and undeath in the portfolio.

Of course, from the sounds of it this guy's INT is his second lowest stat, so to speak, so it's highly likely he simply didn't think it through or is trying to fiat how the game works by getting cleric powers "magically."

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:46 AM
He actually worships the Burning Hate himself, Pelor.

Making this whole business so much more crazy.
It's almost tearfully hilarious.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 12:48 AM
He actually worships the Burning Hate himself, Pelor.

Making this whole business so much more crazy.
It's almost tearfully hilarious.

Have Pelor revoke his powers.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:49 AM
For OOC comments?

That might be a little far.

Eldariel
2009-12-02, 12:50 AM
Have Pelor show up in front of him and give up "This foolish quest for arcane power and focus on becoming his greatest servant, for he can bestow ability to smite far greater than what arcane magic provides"

And yeah, OOC comment? No. Not believing in him? Yeah! :smalltongue:

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 12:51 AM
Huh, you know, Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge would probably be a very good fit for him, and due to the way Ardent mantles work it doesn't lose as much.

And yeah with Practiced Manifester at level 6 he gets into PT at level 7, which is about right for a theurge. And Ardents can get one of the very best blasty-type powers, Energy Missile, so there's that. But he probably hates psionics too huh? :smalltongue:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-02, 12:51 AM
Or Pelor could show up in his true form and save some time.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 12:53 AM
For OOC comments?

That might be a little far.

I'm sure you can find some way of making him admit it in game. Hell, conspire with the wizard to have the topic of where these magical powers they use come from.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 12:53 AM
Huh, you know, Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge would probably be a very good fit for him, and due to the way Ardent mantles work it doesn't lose as much.

With ardent mantles you can just get practiced manifester and items of + ML to get access to powers even if you do something like Ardent1/Cleric18/Ardent1.

Hell, couldn't you get early access to powers by stacking CL improving items? Since they are theoretically permanent, they work for class features, so you could get your powers a bit earlier than normal with ioun stones and the like.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 12:56 AM
I'm sure you can find some way of making him admit it in game. Hell, conspire with the wizard to have the topic of where these magical powers they use come from.

Positively evil. I love it.

Grumman
2009-12-02, 01:32 AM
Edit: or even let him "qualify for MT" at Wizard 2/Cleric 2, so he can start the game as a Wiz 2/Clr 2/MT 1.
Such boons should be saved for players who aren't gits.

Just don't let him play, and find someone more competent to take his place. Like a dog.

TheThan
2009-12-02, 01:47 AM
Iíve got a friend that wants to run a wizard5/ur priest5/mystic theurge10.

Heís an optimizer (and a cheater but thatís another story) and Iíve been trying to figure out his angle here. anyone have any ideas?

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 01:47 AM
Such boons should be saved for players who aren't gits.

Just don't let him play, and find someone more competent to take his place. Like a dog.

If he was actively disruptive, I would...

He's a fun player. Fun to be around, fun to roleplay with, comes up with fun concepts. He just does not understand the system as well as he thinks he does, and this is not my serious group.

Edit: ...I am aware I just implied that a group running through ToH is not serious. I wonder what that says about my definition of serious.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 01:48 AM
Iíve got a friend that wants to run a wizard5/ur priest5/mystic theurge10.

Heís an optimizer (and a cheater but thatís another story) and Iíve been trying to figure out his angle here. anyone have any ideas?

That doesn't even make sense... Ur Priest stops giving benefits after 10 levels.

Rixx
2009-12-02, 01:49 AM
Jeez, just let him play the character he wants to play, even if it's not optimal. If he's convinced it's optimized, the worst thing that will happen is he finds out it isn't - and if he still enjoys the character, then it's a non-issue.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-02, 01:50 AM
Iíve got a friend that wants to run a wizard5/ur priest5/mystic theurge10.

Heís an optimizer (and a cheater but thatís another story) and Iíve been trying to figure out his angle here. anyone have any ideas?That's a really bad build for Ur-Priest abuse, but it still gets Wiz 15, Cleric 20 casting. Figure at level 5, he's a Wizard 5. At level 10, he's a Cleric 10, Wizard 5. At level 15, he's a Cleric 20, Wizard 10.

It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the core. It's a well-known abuse of the Ur-priest, and not one that in any way violates RaI or RaW.

averagejoe
2009-12-02, 01:55 AM
Question: how does wizard take Ur Priest at level 5? I assume there's some feat to make bluff a class skill or something similar, but it isn't in any of the supplements I have access to.

TheThan
2009-12-02, 01:57 AM
Well ok I think that was the build he said, the levels may be offÖ

Able learner would get him the ranks in bluff.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 01:58 AM
Jeez, just let him play the character he wants to play, even if it's not optimal. If he's convinced it's optimized, the worst thing that will happen is he finds out it isn't - and if he still enjoys the character, then it's a non-issue.

See, the thing is, I'd have nothing against the class if he actually knew what he was getting into. Especially since this is his first caster type ever, in a game that I'm making deliberately hard. Not only am I concerned about the difficulty of him surviving, but whether he'll actually contribute compared to his comrades.

If he was truly aware of it all and still wanted to play it, I'd let him. I am still letting him, actually, since my policy is that I never say no, merely advise, and after that the dice fall where they fall.

I was simply trying to find evidence to back me up in an effort to talk him out of it, because it IS a bad idea, given his stats and leveling, and the fact that he won't change those. It doesn't mean I will stop him. It just means that I wish I could.

Ultimately, he gets a fair shot like everyone else. He knows the penalties of death.

Grumman
2009-12-02, 01:59 AM
I'd guess so. Something like a Wizard 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 would be more likely.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 02:01 AM
I'd guess so. Something like a Wizard 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 would be more likely.

Wizard8/Ur Priest2/MT10 works better.

Grumman
2009-12-02, 02:05 AM
Wizard8/Ur Priest2/MT10 works better.
Wouldn't you need another level of Wizard for the Bluff and Fort prerequisites? And once you hit level 10 Ur-Priest spellcasting, another 2 levels of Mystic Theurge doesn't do much.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 02:06 AM
Interesting note. He just commented to me that Mystic Theurge gets even better on a gestalted character. I am far too tired to properly consider that, but I'll throw it out there for anyone who wants to touch that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-02, 02:07 AM
Wait, I got it.

Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur Priest2/MT10/Full Casting PrC2


Interesting note. He just commented to me that Mystic Theurge gets even better on a gestalted character. I am far too tired to properly consider that, but I'll throw it out there for anyone who wants to touch that.

Everything gets better when gestalted.

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 02:08 AM
Jeez, just let him play the character he wants to play, even if it's not optimal. If he's convinced it's optimized, the worst thing that will happen is he finds out it isn't - and if he still enjoys the character, then it's a non-issue.

He's playing a multiclass Wizard with a 12 Intelligence in a high-end Tomb of Horrors game. He's not going to know if he enjoys the character since he's almost certainly going to die in the first room.


Everything gets better when gestalted.

Except theurges since they can't be gestalted, not without borking the gestalt rules anyway.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 02:09 AM
Well, yes, but it seems like it would be far more intelligent to just go Wizard/Cleric gestalt and prestige from there.

Then again, if you used the other half for something meleeish and made a gish out of it, it might be interesting. ...Somehow I think whatever he's actually considering will be underwhelming though.

The actual value of the build against PC class builds isn't necessarily increased, as everything else is suddenly gestalt too. Against monsters maybe.

Editeditedit:
You're right, they can't be normally, can they?
Jeez, it must be late if I fell for that.

Myrmex
2009-12-02, 02:18 AM
Darwin at work.

Darwin at work would involve breeding, killing all offspring that favored the Mystic Theurge, breeding those, killing those offspring that went for Mystic Theurge, and so on, until you got a population that vastly underfavored Mystic Theurge when compared to other populations.

The only thing at work here is operant conditioning.

Demented
2009-12-02, 02:19 AM
Interesting note. He just commented to me that Mystic Theurge gets even better on a gestalted character. I am far too tired to properly consider that, but I'll throw it out there for anyone who wants to touch that.

Except theurges since they can't be gestalted, not without borking the gestalt rules anyway.

Editeditedit:
You're right, they can't be normally, can they?
Jeez, it must be late if I fell for that.
Is he be trollin'? :smallbiggrin:

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-02, 02:23 AM
Is he be trollin'? :smallbiggrin:

I swear, if I didn't know him as well as I do, I'd say yes. I'm going to chalk it up to him having never read the gestalt rules.

...It just really amuses me that after the unsubtle hinting that Demons/Devils/Undead were going to be the major enemy types in this game, he swapped from pure cleric to Elemental Blaster Theurge.

It's just...
GAH

Anyway, I'm off to bed, unless someone posts while I'm editing this.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 02:33 AM
If this hasn't been mentioned already, tell the player about divine power+persistent spell. Unless you don't allow cheese like that in your game, which you really shouldn't. And if he's so hot on fighters, then druid should be a no-brainer for him. Wildshape fights better than a fighter, plus spellcasting? Yes please.

Besides, losing a whole two levels of spells is a really dumb idea. I mean, if he doesn't believe me, Greater Invisibility might be better than Invisibility. Crazy huh?

EDIT: And if people are really so keen on having a healer, they should probably think again. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)

Rixx
2009-12-02, 02:33 AM
Well, live and learn. Or die and learn. You're not the one that's going to have to roll a new character, eh?

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 02:36 AM
But then, like lycanthromancer said, he'll believe that fighters are better than casters. (Somehow:smallyuk:)

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 02:39 AM
Here's a question: Your group clearly sucks at optimization, or at least one player does (the other ones look better, although just their class choice doesn't tell me much). So... why run such an ungodly hard campaign? The ToH itself is basically just a bunch of "no save, you die" traps (or was before 3e, IIRC), and it's really only playable if you use reserve feats to blow up all the traps. I just can't see how your player is going to have fun being put into a meat grinder where optimized characters still die if they don't have the right feats to not be instagibbed and then you fight a fun demilich at the end, which is a frankly absurd template in 3.5 (immunity to spells, woo!)

Demented
2009-12-02, 02:51 AM
I swear, if I didn't know him as well as I do, I'd say yes. I'm going to chalk it up to him having never read the gestalt rules.

After the dozen other clues given out in this thread, the gestalt mistake was just the last straw.
I'm not believing a thing he says until some seriously good sense motive checks are rolled. :smalltongue:

Grumman
2009-12-02, 03:22 AM
After the dozen other clues given out in this thread, the gestalt mistake was just the last straw.
I'm not believing a thing he says until some seriously good sense motive checks are rolled. :smalltongue:
Or if that doesn't work, Knowledge: Nature.

Myrmex
2009-12-02, 03:34 AM
Here's a question: Your group clearly sucks at optimization, or at least one player does (the other ones look better, although just their class choice doesn't tell me much). So... why run such an ungodly hard campaign? The ToH itself is basically just a bunch of "no save, you die" traps (or was before 3e, IIRC), and it's really only playable if you use reserve feats to blow up all the traps. I just can't see how your player is going to have fun being put into a meat grinder where optimized characters still die if they don't have the right feats to not be instagibbed and then you fight a fun demilich at the end, which is a frankly absurd template in 3.5 (immunity to spells, woo!)

I hear the 3.5 version not like that at all, actually. Some guy was telling me how he got through with a Beguiler, and had a fun time being super-effective while doing it. Heavy use of illusions on the mindless stuff, taking 20 on searches, and diplomacy/bluff on the cultists.

Another_Poet
2009-12-02, 01:59 PM
I would just like to second the call for a campaign journal.

Also, your campaign sounds awesome. You should tell the player that there are plenty of people out there who would liove to roll up an effective character and take his place :)

Jayabalard
2009-12-02, 02:52 PM
Does he pretend the entry about gods in the books doesn't exist?The gods appearing as an entry in a rulebook is meta-information... the character doesn't need to pretend that entry doesn't exist in order to be an atheist.


"But the gods plainly do exist," said a priest. "It Is Not Evident." [said Dorfl] A bolt of lightning lanced through the clouds and hit Dorflís helmet. There was a sheet of flame and then a trickling noise. Dorflís molten armor formed puddles around his white hot feet. "I Donít Call That Much Of An Argument," said Dorfl calmly, from somewhere in the clouds of smoke.

jiriku
2009-12-02, 03:03 PM
OK, you wanted persuasive math.

Let's assume level 10, since he's going to take the hard slog of cleric 5/wizard 5 on his way to mystic theurge.

He's taking wizard for blasting. Barring feats, his best DC on a wizard spell will be DC 14 for his third level spells. His caster level checks to bypass spell resistance will be rolled at +5. A bog standard CR 10 rakshasa has an average saving throw of +7 and SR 27. No spell in his spellbook that allows spell resistance has any chance to affect it. Assuming he does have a couple of good spells that bypass SR, the rakshasa is 70-80% likely to save, depending on what level spell he's using.

Ok, different example, easier for him. A generic CR 10 fire giant is immune to his fireball and scorching ray, but say he hits it with lightning bolt His average damage for a 5d6 lightning bolt (17.5) is reduced to an average of about 12.5 by its 55% chance to save, even though he's targeting its worst save. This represents about 11% of its 142 hit points.

Ok, lets find something even easier. A standard CR 8 young red dragon skeleton has no SR and average saves of +7. It is immune to fire and cold, but say he hits it with searing light, which allows no save and does extra damage to undead. His average damage for a 5d6 searing light (17.5) represents 14% of its 123 hit points.

That's about as good as it gets.

Now, a 10th level cleric can persist divine power and righeous might and deliver equal or superior damage round after round after round, without the need to continue burning through an attack spell every round. His melee prowess is extremely threatening to the rakshasa, which has below-average AC and melee attacks for its CR. His magically augmented size, strength, and reach allow him to effectively go toe-to-toe with the fire giant. And a 10th-level cleric who is highly optimized against undead could destroy the dragon skeleton with a single standard action.

So, in each of these examples, the straight clericzilla can deliver a superior performance while investing fewer spells. In some cases, he might be the decisive character in the battle. Meanwhile, a cleric 5/wizard 5 blaster struggles to find the right spell for the job and barely has any impact on the battle even when using his best options.

Glimbur
2009-12-02, 03:06 PM
Or if that doesn't work, Knowledge: Nature.

The player in question knows all about bears. They live in the ocean and capture and eat parrots with their tentacles. Everyone knows that.

On topic, I'd suggest letting him run with the character as proposed for a session or two and seeing what he thinks. It might result in a TPK, and I wish I had a good idea for how you could avoid punishing the whole party for one player's pigheadedness.

Sliver
2009-12-02, 03:11 PM
Have a showdown between him playing his fighter and MT and you playing something else.. like cleric and druid.. To be fair... And tell us the results..

And really, next time please, write down the arguments he actually uses :smallbiggrin:

Arakune
2009-12-02, 04:00 PM
The gods appearing as an entry in a rulebook is meta-information... the character doesn't need to pretend that entry doesn't exist in order to be an atheist.

So far it's not the characters he make that are atheist, it's the player itself, from the looks of what the op said.

yilduz
2009-12-02, 07:49 PM
But then, like lycanthromancer said, he'll believe that fighters are better than casters. (Somehow:smallyuk:)

Or, more likely he'll die before he gets to MT and blame his death on the fact that he didn't make it that far, so he didn't get to use the AWESOME POWER OF THE MYSTIC THEURGE!!! RAWRRR!!!

Mongoose87
2009-12-02, 07:56 PM
Or, more likely he'll die before he gets to MT and blame his death on the fact that he didn't make it that far, so he didn't get to use the AWESOME POWER OF THE MYSTIC THEURGE!!! RAWRRR!!!

Which power would that be?

Aquillion
2009-12-02, 08:06 PM
Probably not.
If anyone remembers one of my earlier friends, this is the same guy who thinks that only core is balanced and that Fighters are a top tier class. Getting him to actually try a caster was hard enough.It sounds like he wants to fail, to 'prove' that wizards are underpowered. I suspect that he still doesn't really want to be playing a caster in the first place.


The gods appearing as an entry in a rulebook is meta-information... the character doesn't need to pretend that entry doesn't exist in order to be an atheist.
More simply, a character can simply dispute what is really worth calling a god. To quote Epicurius, one of the earliest recorded 'formal' atheists, who was writing in a time when the literal interpretation of what we would call Greek myths was common:


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurius was writing in an age where people generally accepted gods much in the way of D&D gods, and which D&D gods are often modeled after; the conditions that he set weren't universally accepted by any means as necessary for divinity, but he still set them.

So it wouldn't be that odd to have a D&D atheist who, basically, just sees the gods as something like high-powered djinns and elementals -- they exist, yes, and have real power, but they're Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. It's a subtle distinction, especially when other people use a different definition of 'god', but there's precedent in philosophical thought.

quiet1mi
2009-12-02, 08:52 PM
Is he having fun?

If the answer is yes... what is the problem?:smallbiggrin:

Since when did D&D become about competition?:smallwink:

Unless this is a gladitorial campaign then that is all it is about....:smalltongue:

I would say let him... just ignore his heresy if he says it is more optimized...

There is nothing quite like being able to prepare superfluous spells that you never knew you needed... without relying on scrolls...

DjErebus
2009-12-02, 08:57 PM
The only person who can help you now is Admiral Ackbar. But by then it will be to late.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-02, 09:18 PM
Is he having fun?

If the answer is yes... what is the problem?:smallbiggrin:

Since when did D&D become about competition?:smallwink:

Unless this is a gladitorial campaign then that is all it is about....:smalltongue:

I would say let him... just ignore his heresy if he says it is more optimized...

There is nothing quite like being able to prepare superfluous spells that you never knew you needed... without relying on scrolls...

As has been mentioned previously in the thread, the DM was trying to persuade the player otherwise, due to the nature of the campaign. Even though the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors is lackluster compared to previous incarnations, with everything else mentioned, it's still going to be a blender of a game.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-02, 09:39 PM
It sounds like he wants to fail, to 'prove' that wizards are underpowered. I suspect that he still doesn't really want to be playing a caster in the first place.Nicely put. A summary of one of my previous posts, but nicely put all the same. :smalltongue:


So it wouldn't be that odd to have a D&D atheist who, basically, just sees the gods as something like high-powered djinns and elementals -- they exist, yes, and have real power, but they're Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. It's a subtle distinction, especially when other people use a different definition of 'god', but there's precedent in philosophical thought.Kind of like Superman. In most any age prior to the modern one, he would have been worshiped as a god, but we know he's just REALLY powerful. A 'Sufficiently Advanced Alien,' as it were. :smallsmile:

elonin
2009-12-02, 10:28 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, I've played a number of wizards who burned out of all of their spells by the end of the 2nd combat. Yes not having the higher level of spells hurts but he could be using utility swift spells (snake's swiftness anyone?) and other no save useful spells. Can't remember where the advise came from but someone suggested that if you want to see how much MT sucks try playing a wizard 3/ cleric 2 in a group with a cleric 5 and a wizard 5.

I think it's funnier that this pc is playing a cleric of Pelor who doesn't believe in gods. Even clerics who don't worship a specific god must have faith.

Zovc
2009-12-02, 11:14 PM
Can't remember where the advise came from but someone suggested that if you want to see how much MT sucks try playing a wizard 3/ cleric 2 in a group with a cleric 5 and a wizard 5.

Oh, but you're not proving that a "Mystic Theurge" (as far as class is concerned) is weaker there. Make the difference worse: Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 1 alongside a Wiz 7 and a Clr 7. Then you're actually demonstrating that a Mystic Theurge (one with the class) is worse.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-03, 09:11 AM
1: 4 spells/level/day has all ready been proven to be more than enough for anyone.

2: 9th level spells win the game.

3: Spell Resistance and Saving Throws matter more than spells/day. It doesn't matter if you have 50 or so spells, if the DCs are always 3 levels behind everyone else (due to MAD and Multiclassing) everything is going to make its saves.

4: 9th level spells win the game.

5: Epic spellcasting. 'Nuff said.

Roderick_BR
2009-12-03, 09:52 AM
Probably not.
If anyone remembers one of my earlier friends, this is the same guy who thinks that only core is balanced and that Fighters are a top tier class. Getting him to actually try a caster was hard enough.
Hmm... in this case, letting him "suck" as a caster will only make him think fighters are superiors even more.
Just do what people said, show him that the variety of a thurge is too weak compared to the sheer power of a full caster.
I'd suggest let him play either a sorcerer, warmage, or a warlock, as these are better to blast (though warmage and warlocks are not core)... At worst, let him pick 1 level of cleric, and guy him wands to heal and buff, and let him blast away.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 10:34 AM
Good news-

The player of the Rogue decided to also play a Healer, meaning that our dynamic is intact. So now it's just a matter of his personal suck.

...Interestingly enough, he's willing to forget about Theurge if I can come up with a build focused on using Water. Of course to make things complicated he won't accept a straight answer of "Wizard" or "Cleric" or "Druid".

-_-

I also suggested the Waterbender from AstralFire's Avatar Suppliment, but he's not really interested.

Any suggestions, compatriots?

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 10:37 AM
5: Improved Spell Capacity. 'Nuff said.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

Unless you really can chain-gate chumps Solars for DC mitigation, I'd rather have Quickened Wish.


Good news-

The player of the Rogue decided to also play a Healer, meaning that our dynamic is intact. So now it's just a matter of his personal suck.

...Interestingly enough, he's willing to forget about Theurge if I can come up with a build focused on using Water. Of course to make things complicated he won't accept a straight answer of "Wizard" or "Cleric" or "Druid".

-_-

I also suggested the Waterbender from AstralFire's Avatar Suppliment, but he's not really interested.

Any suggestions, compatriots?

Water Wu Jen -> Frost Mage?
Water Shugenja -> Singer of Concordance? (Make it a Spellscale to qualify, and for the CHA bonus.)

DjErebus
2009-12-03, 10:49 AM
Well seeing as I am actually in this campaign, I suppose i should have some sort of input in this thread.

Let me begin by saying, I want to share this campaign with everyone so I'll write a journal.

And let me continue by saying, I've cried late at night because of her adventures. (In a good way.)

And the whole issue with this character, is just adding to the coming pain. Please fix him.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 10:50 AM
Wu Jen maybe.

...He really doesn't like being a non-human, I should note. He thinks that Feats = Power.

Really need to sit this guy down with Xykon.

Telonius
2009-12-03, 11:02 AM
Wu Jen maybe.

...He really doesn't like being a non-human, I should note. He thinks that Feats = Power.

Really need to sit this guy down with Xykon.

Wu Jen was also my first thought, followed by Shugenja from Oriental Adventures (3.0, but it's fairly easy to update). Dragon Shaman (Bronze) could be interesting, though not quite as tightly focused to an element.

Sorcerer or Bard to Elemental Savant (CArc) would be a nonstandard way of achieving elemental focus.

Any Arcane caster building to the Sea Witch (Stormwrack) PrC might be useful too.

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 11:04 AM
Wu Jen was also my first thought, followed by Shugenja from Oriental Adventures (3.0, but it's fairly easy to update). Dragon Shaman (Bronze) could be interesting, though not quite as tightly focused to an element.

Shugenja has been updated to 3.5 - they are in Complete Divine.

Both classes function fine as humans, I merely mentioned Spellscale for the CHA bonus and PrC. (Shugenja, like sorcerers, are keyed entirely off of CHA.)

Telonius
2009-12-03, 11:07 AM
Shugenja has been updated to 3.5 - they are in Complete Divine.

Both classes function fine as humans, I merely mentioned Spellscale for the CHA bonus and PrC. (Shugenja, like sorcerers, are keyed entirely off of CHA.)

Ahh, I thought they were updated somewhere! My Google-fu was weak.

Cyclocone
2009-12-03, 11:20 AM
Ardents have a Water mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

EDIT: And Water Genasi!

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 11:26 AM
..He really doesn't like being a non-human, I should note. He thinks that Feats = Power.

Really need to sit this guy down with Xykon.

Well, in mathematical terms feats DO equal power. Not only do they grant you unique abilities, you also qualify for powerful PrCs sooner.

In actual gameplay, your ability to properly use your abilities is equally important, which was Xykon's lesson.

Anyway, Wu Jen don't need Charisma, so Spellscale isn't even a consideration there. If he wants to be the damage dealer, That's what I'd recommend for him if he wants to do the damage thing, and he should - Water Shugenja are mainly healers, and it sounds like the party has one of those already.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-03, 12:22 PM
Good news-

The player of the Rogue decided to also play a Healer, meaning that our dynamic is intact. So now it's just a matter of his personal suck.

...Interestingly enough, he's willing to forget about Theurge if I can come up with a build focused on using Water. Of course to make things complicated he won't accept a straight answer of "Wizard" or "Cleric" or "Druid".

-_-

I also suggested the Waterbender from AstralFire's Avatar Suppliment, but he's not really interested.

Any suggestions, compatriots?

Water as in Ice? Frostburn has Frost Mage Prc.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 12:28 PM
Well, in mathematical terms feats DO equal power. Not only do they grant you unique abilities, you also qualify for powerful PrCs sooner.

In actual gameplay, your ability to properly use your abilities is equally important, which was Xykon's lesson.

Anyway, Wu Jen don't need Charisma, so Spellscale isn't even a consideration there. If he wants to be the damage dealer, That's what I'd recommend for him if he wants to do the damage thing, and he should - Water Shugenja are mainly healers, and it sounds like the party has one of those already.

My real point was more of
"Obstinately focusing on feats at the expense of everything else is not [always] power."

Inflexibility and stubbornly using inefficient abilities isn't power either.

But yes, anyway.

Edit:
He totally just went back on his promise.
Now I really am considering simply playing this particular adventure without him.

The problem is that he's also the ride for one of the others.

Jayabalard
2009-12-03, 01:15 PM
Oh, but you're not proving that a "Mystic Theurge" (as far as class is concerned) is weaker there. Make the difference worse: Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 1 alongside a Wiz 7 and a Clr 7. Then you're actually demonstrating that a Mystic Theurge (one with the class) is worse.if you really want to be convincing, you'd probably be better off showing a Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 2 alongside a Wiz 8 and a Clr 8, since that has the MT at it's strongest compared to the wizard/cleric

jiriku
2009-12-03, 01:32 PM
NC, if you're really so strongly opposed to the build, and your other players are begging you to squash it, why not just exercise rule zero?

I know that's outside of your comfort zone, but remember, as the DM, you bear responsibility for creating an environment where everyone can have fun. Sometimes that means you have to use authority when persuasion fails. Sometimes that means you have to say no to a friend.

You come across as a very empathetic and compassionate person. I'm sure you can tactfully tell him no. Simply tell him that mystic theurge is inappropriate for the campaign that your planning and is therefore not an allowed class.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 01:41 PM
NC, if you're really so strongly opposed to the build, and your other players are begging you to squash it, why not just exercise rule zero?

I know that's outside of your comfort zone, but remember, as the DM, you bear responsibility for creating an environment where everyone can have fun. Sometimes that means you have to use authority when persuasion fails. Sometimes that means you have to say no to a friend.

You come across as a very empathetic and compassionate person. I'm sure you can tactfully tell him no. Simply tell him that mystic theurge is inappropriate for the campaign that your planning and is therefore not an allowed class.

Well, I don't know exactly how he would react.
But I suppose I'll try it. For the Flumphs.

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 02:02 PM
Or better yet, just let him use it - no early entry tricks, no Archivist, just straight up Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT. That will teach him far better than anything else you could do, and you'll come up smelling like roses.

Sliver
2009-12-03, 02:12 PM
Or better yet, just let him use it - no early entry tricks, no Archivist, just straight up Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT. That will teach him far better than anything else you could do, and you'll come up smelling like roses.

What will it teach him? that spellcasting is weak and he was right about fighters being awesome? There is no win situation here, he is trolling. He won't take advice about building and does something you know is a weak choice, on the other hand he is convinced that fighters are great. I think he just does it as an excuse to prove his point and is just close minded. Let him do what he wants and ignore any argument of his that involves game mechanics.

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 02:15 PM
What will it teach him? that spellcasting is weak and he was right about fighters being awesome? There is no win situation here, he is trolling. He won't take advice about building and does something you know is a weak choice, on the other hand he is convinced that fighters are great. I think he just does it as an excuse to prove his point and is just close minded. Let him do what he wants and ignore any argument of his that involves game mechanics.

It will teach him that picking a subpar build results in a subpar character. It's up to him if he wants to take the lesson to heart. Either way, the OP and all the other players in this game have or should have far better things to do with their time than get gray hairs over one insouciant player.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 02:54 PM
I do think it is easier to let him destroy himself.

I think I will allow him this build, but if he doesn't learn, I may take more drastic action.

In any case, I appreciate all your help.

Telonius
2009-12-03, 03:03 PM
At some point in the adventure, you might set him up in a Wizards' Duel with one of the Theurge builds listed here, or with an Archivist or full Wizard. Complete Arcane has rules for those sorts of duels.

Jayabalard
2009-12-03, 03:03 PM
I think I will allow him this build, but if he doesn't learn, I may take more drastic action.You know, "teaching him a lesson" loses any validity it might have if "drastic action" means targeting his build specifically... because any build is going to lose to a DM making a concerted effort to blow it out of the water.

On the other hand, if you let him destroy himself, with no help from you, you might actually get through to him.

Sliver
2009-12-03, 03:05 PM
You know, "teaching him a lesson" loses any validity it might have if "drastic action" means targeting his build specifically... because any build is going to lose to a DM making a concerted effort to blow it out of the water.

Not if the DM uses the same rules he set up for his players and doesn't say stuff like "it hits. I said so."

Jayabalard
2009-12-03, 03:09 PM
Not if the DM uses the same rules he set up for his players and doesn't say stuff like "it hits. I said so."Yes, even in that case. Specifically targeting a particular player's character/build just shows that the DM can beat the player, not that the character/build is particularly flawed. This is ESPECIALLY true of someone who's refusing to listen to any arguments like this person is.

DjErebus
2009-12-03, 04:13 PM
Well as a member of this party, I really don't care what he is, as long as he doesn't spend the entire ****ing campaign arguing with the DM about why his class is so awesome. I prefer a comfortable environment over a perfect party any day.

Nero24200
2009-12-03, 05:03 PM
I say just let him go. Don't go out your way to challenge him, but at the same time don't hold back. Treat him in the party the way you would treat a full cleric or wizard. That is, if you'd be more than happy to throw something at the party taking into account a wiz/cleric, do it, even if they have Mr Subpar in their place.

I don't mind someone playing a subpar class, but well..it sounds like this player is intetionally powergamming and just doing a poor job of it. As I said, don't go out your way to put him in place, just let the game flow normally. If he thinks and acts the way it seems he does, then he'll get bored and realise his build isn't as powerful as suspected.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-03, 05:19 PM
By drastic I simply meant not inviting him back next time. I'd never let my emotions affect things In Game.

Anyway, the issue has passed, so there's no need to keep posting.
=3

Thanks to all.

Rogue 7
2009-12-03, 05:44 PM
More simply, a character can simply dispute what is really worth calling a god. To quote Epicurius, one of the earliest recorded 'formal' atheists, who was writing in a time when the literal interpretation of what we would call Greek myths was common:


Epicurius was writing in an age where people generally accepted gods much in the way of D&D gods, and which D&D gods are often modeled after; the conditions that he set weren't universally accepted by any means as necessary for divinity, but he still set them.

I would think the answer in the case of the Greek gods was "malevolent". Isn't it a universally established fact that every single god in the greek pantheon was a raging @$$&*@#?

tribble
2009-12-03, 05:58 PM
Isn't it a universally established fact that every single god in the greek pantheon was a raging @$$&*@#?

also not all that brilliant in the head, as a general rule.

Iamyourking
2009-12-03, 08:01 PM
I don't know, Athena was generally good and Hestia never did much of anything. Before you bring up Arachne, in most versions of the story Athena won and Arachne killed herself out of shame for losing and insulting the gods.

Zavrith
2009-12-04, 01:12 AM
It depends on the character, I think.

Also, there are some crazy feats that grant the ability to cast 2nd level spells at level 1; so if he were to take 3 levels of wizard, then dip one of Cleric and go with one of those crazy get-a-second-level-spell-immediately feats, then they're only missing out on one level of wizard spells.

Besides, the character's role could make a huge difference. If he's more of a utility character, it may not be as much of a problem.

Of course, if you're trying to be the main divine caster, or main arcane caster (especially), it's probably not a good idea... at all.

The feats you're referring to are Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten spell, which have to be used with spontaneous casting. I'm actually making a character now based on this, and Favoured Soul 1/Sorc 2/MT is what I'm doing because I want to be able to get at offensive arcane spells asap. It means that overall I'm one spell level behind a wizard, but I have one primary attribute in cha, healing capabilities, and a *lot* of spells/day. However, it means I'm 5th level before I have offensive spells that can do more than a single weapon's attacking damage :smalleek:. After 5th level though I gain 10 spell slots a level, and I can convert the useless lower ones to more impressive spells as I need to, plus be able to heal.

Getting back to main topic though, I've gotta agree with the arguement of putting the wiz3/clr3/MT up against a wizard or cleric of the same level to show how important the higher level spells are. Also, it might be a good idea to put a high level wizard or cleric that you fairly make against a fighter of the same level he fairly makes, to help show that fighters lose a good deal of their luster after 10th level.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-04, 02:06 AM
Also, it might be a good idea to put a high level wizard or cleric that you fairly make against a fighter of the same level he fairly makes, to help show that fighters lose a good deal of their luster after 10th 3rd level.Fixed that for you.

2nd level spells are a lot better than most people realize.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-04, 02:09 AM
Fixed that for you.

2nd level spells are a lot better than most people realize.

Fighter: "I shall smite thee with my mighty blade!" *thonk* "Thonk?"

Sorcerer: "Wings of Cover."

Telonius
2009-12-04, 04:49 AM
I would think the answer in the case of the Greek gods was "malevolent". Isn't it a universally established fact that every single god in the greek pantheon was a raging @$$&*@#?

Except for Hestia, more or less.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 04:57 AM
Except for Hestia, more or less. Hephaestus, too. The only **** thing I remember him doing was completely deserved by the victims.

(Caught his wife, Aphrodite, in bed with Ares, trapped the coital pair with a net, called the other gods in to laugh at them before setting them free.)

Aquillion
2009-12-04, 08:22 PM
...He really doesn't like being a non-human, I should note. He thinks that Feats = Power. In this respect he is probably right, honestly. With well-chosen feats, human is generally one of the best races in the game from an optimization perspective.

elonin
2009-12-05, 08:40 AM
There are some builds that are feat starved, but that isn't the best reason to choose human. The better reason to choose human is the lack of stat adjustment.

Dust
2009-12-05, 06:34 PM
He's playing a multiclass Wizard with a 12 Intelligence in a high-end Tomb of Horrors game. He's not going to know if he enjoys the character since he's almost certainly going to die in the first room.
There have been many things said and tossed about in this thread; but this, I think, summarizes all of it. Let the player play and pull no punches.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 06:50 PM
There are some builds that are feat starved, but that isn't the best reason to choose human. The better reason to choose human is the lack of stat adjustment.

I don't get it.

Arakune
2009-12-05, 07:07 PM
I don't get it.

Technically, you can be human/any class and never go wrong. However, it may prove to be difficult for some other class/race combination, like a dwarf warlock, or half-orcs wizards.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 07:18 PM
Technically, you can be human/any class and never go wrong. However, it may prove to be difficult for some other class/race combination, like a dwarf warlock, or half-orcs wizards.

Oh. I thought it was a joke. Like a Lightning Warrior allusion.

In that case, I object. My argument can be found on page 18 of the Player's Handbook.

Honestly, show me a build that wouldn't benefit from Improved Initiative, Shape Soulmeld, Darkstalker or a 3-level jump on a feat chain.

Arakune
2009-12-05, 07:29 PM
Oh. I thought it was a joke. Like a Lightning Warrior allusion.

In that case, I object. My argument can be found on page 18 of the Player's Handbook.

Honestly, show me a build that wouldn't benefit from Improved Initiative, Shape Soulmeld, Darkstalker or a 3-level jump on a feat chain.

What that have anything to do with humans? The extra feat?

Pluto
2009-12-05, 10:10 PM
What that have anything to do with humans? The extra feat?

Having no stat modifiers is, if anything, a weakness. The Grey Elf and the Half-Elf are very similar in most features. The biggest difference is the Grey Elf's ability modifiers. They make it useful in Int-reliant builds. With no such strengths anywhere, the Half-Elf is neglected in character optimization, except in very specific circumstances (Bard substitution levels, dodging multiclass penalties in Elf-specific builds, diplomancers and, um, maybe something else).

The strength of the Human, the reason it's one of the strongest choices in nearly any build, is its bonus feat. Every build is a feat-starved build. Every build can be improved with another feat, especially early in its progression.

Aquillion
2009-12-06, 11:15 PM
The strength of the Human, the reason it's one of the strongest choices in nearly any build, is its bonus feat. Every build is a feat-starved build. Every build can be improved with another feat, especially early in its progression.Also, the extra skill point is nontrivial in many cases.

But the point is, yes, if you're optimizing, you should be feat-starved. (And if you're not optimizing, well, you don't care which race is optimal.)

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 11:22 PM
Also, the extra skill point is nontrivial in many cases.

But the point is, yes, if you're optimizing, you should be feat-starved. (And if you're not optimizing, well, you don't care which race is optimal.)Or you could play a wizard, not have to care as much about your feats, and not worry about your race so long as it doesn't have an Int penalty.

I've shattered tier 2s with a wizard without a single feat investment, core only. Granted, they were psions, but still.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-06, 11:58 PM
Are you guys still in here?

XD

I suppose while this is on the first page, I should note that the Cleric player ended up swapping roles with the Warblade. They both wanted it, I wasn't going to argue.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 01:43 AM
Are you guys still in here?

XD

I suppose while this is on the first page, I should note that the Cleric player ended up swapping roles with the Warblade. They both wanted it, I wasn't going to argue.

The better question is, where is teh Campaign Journal?!

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-07, 08:53 AM
The better question is, where is teh Campaign Journal?!

You'll get it when I'm good and done with it!

= P

We're still in the pregame, which usually consists of about a month of people joining/dropping out/joining again/inviting cousins only to drop out and leave me with a stranger.

And the character classes will of course change dementedly by the time this thing gets off the ground.

On another note, I've gotten so bored waiting that I've actually added enough homebrew/sidequests to create a Level 5 through 20 game. If they keep bickering long enough, the minimum level may go DOWN, as they have yet to touch pencil to character sheet.