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erikun
2009-12-01, 11:49 PM
So, I had an unusual thought the other day. An Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) disables all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities inside. It also turns off summoned creatures and incorporeal undead. A Null Psionics Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm) likely does the same, although with different wording.

The capstone for the Psion Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is to become incorporeal permanently, which is an Extraordinary ability. And because the Uncarnate is not undead, they can both stick around and stay incorporeal within an Antimagic Field. Or an area of dead magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic), for that matter.

An incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) creature is only affected by positive energy, negative energy, force effects, ghost touch weapons, and magic. The Antimagic Field itself is only vulnerable to Disjunction.

Now, assuming the Psion Uncarnate can carry around an object projecting an Antimagic Field, or just cast it himself, what is he vulnerable to? Just what can he do to others?

What the Uncarnate is vulnerable to:

Disjunction (on the Antimagic Field)
Epic spellcastion
Divine ranks
Soulknife 4th level

Now, are there any other ways to affect the character? I am not familiar with any positive or negative energy (Ex) abilities. Ghost Touch weapons are obviously ineffective, unless there is a special material that can replicate the ability nonmagically. Magic, including Force magic, is similarly useless unless something can deal force damage as an (Ex) ability.

For that matter, what can the Uncarnate do? They can't use their Incorporeal Touch (a supernatural ability) and obviously can't use powers. I'd assume they can't use their weapons, either. The only thing I can think of is a Soulknife of at least 4th level, who can manifest a magical mindblade. (Although there is technically nothing saying a magical incorporeal weapon can be used to attack solid creatures.) A Soulknife/Illumine Soul definitely can, as they specifically get the Ghost Touch ability.

Long post, but are there any other ways to affect such a character? Are there any other ways for the character to affect others? (beyond the antimagic, of course)

TheLaughingLich
2009-12-01, 11:55 PM
I believe you can toss Orbs at him from outside the field.

Glimbur
2009-12-01, 11:55 PM
If I recall correctly there is a Prismatic Golem which is Incorporeal but not undead. That might be able to give the Uncarnate a bad day.

Serren wood in BoED gives Ghost Touch non-magically. That could also ruin your day... or be used as a club by the Uncarnate.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-01, 11:57 PM
What happens if you apply the Living Spell Template to an Antimagic Field?

erikun
2009-12-02, 12:10 AM
What happens if you apply the Living Spell Template to an Antimagic Field?
Then it becomes killable. Unless it itself is incorporeal.

Oh Dear God.


I believe you can toss Orbs at him from outside the field.
The orbs are part of the spell, which gets supressed inside the field. A physical variant of the spell would simply create several orbs, which the wizard would need to throw like a standard weapon.

Although if that was the case, they would be physical objects and not effect the Uncarnate. (must like a vial of acid thrown at him does nothing)


If I recall correctly there is a Prismatic Golem which is Incorporeal but not undead. That might be able to give the Uncarnate a bad day.

Serren wood in BoED gives Ghost Touch non-magically. That could also ruin your day... or be used as a club by the Uncarnate.
Gah, I hate that Golem. It doesn't look anything like a meaningful "construct". I don't have the book to confirm, but an incorporeal golem will definitely be a RUN AWAY enemy. I'll let it fight the incorporeal Antimagic Field.

Serren Wood? Thank you. I was pretty sure that WotC had printed something like that somewhere, so thanks for finding it. :smallsmile:

Tavar
2009-12-02, 12:14 AM
No. The orbs are Conj(creation), and therefore can damage things inside a field as long as they are cast outside of it.

erikun
2009-12-02, 12:28 AM
No. The orbs are Conj(creation), and therefore can damage things inside a field as long as they are cast outside of it.
Really? I did not know that. The only spell in core like that is Acid Splash.

I don't know if that makes the Orb line awesomely awesome or awesomely broken. Either way, it makes them a lot more fun for an Arcane Archer. (Imbue Arrow Antimagic Field, then orb them from a distance)

Optimystik
2009-12-02, 07:55 AM
I believe you can toss Orbs at him from outside the field.

Force Orbs to be precise, although he would still have concealment. Find a way around that and he's toast.

But this wonderful "combo" is not worth losing 4 ML over.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 08:44 AM
Riverine weapons could also do it, as they're made of Walls of Force.

Haven
2009-12-02, 08:46 AM
Riverine weapons could also do it, as they're made of Walls of Force.

You can use those inside an AMF?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 09:10 AM
You can use those inside an AMF?

Well, walls of force are unaffected by AMF, so....

Tavar
2009-12-02, 09:15 AM
Force Orbs to be precise, although he would still have concealment. Find a way around that and he's toast.

But this wonderful "combo" is not worth losing 4 ML over.

Depends. If you make an Ardent, with practiced Manifester you might not even notices that you're missing the levels.

Radar
2009-12-02, 09:24 AM
You can use those inside an AMF?
Wall of Force is not suppressed by AMF. Neat, huh?

By the way: a Forcecage would hold incorporeal creatures in place, right?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-02, 09:31 AM
Really? I did not know that. The only spell in core like that is Acid Splash.

I don't know if that makes the Orb line awesomely awesome or awesomely broken. Either way, it makes them a lot more fun for an Arcane Archer. (Imbue Arrow Antimagic Field, then orb them from a distance)

Doesn't melfs acid arrow work like the orbs as well.

Shnezz
2009-12-02, 09:36 AM
I believe you'd be vulnerable to rifts in dimensions? A la Bag of holding + Portable hole.

jiriku
2009-12-02, 09:47 AM
No. The orbs are Conj(creation), and therefore can damage things inside a field as long as they are cast outside of it.

Yeah. Although I have to admit that it makes my brain hurt. As an incorporeal creature, you're immune to normal energy effects, but vulnerable to spells. Anti-magic field stops spells but not normal energy effects. However, orb spells are spells that create normal energy effects, so their effects can enter an anti-magic field. Normally you'd be immune to the orb, since it's only normal energy, but since it was created by a spell.... This is truly tortured logic.

Person_Man
2009-12-02, 10:13 AM
I think Skullclan Hunter and a few other PrC get Ghost Touch as a (Ex) ability on any weapon they wield.

You can get AMF with the Bulwark of Antimagic - A +1 tower shield with an 1/day Anti-Magic Field. Draconomicon pg 118.

It's a nifty idea for a BBEG. Essentially, you force the players to run away and do some research before fighting the end boss. But it's pretty worthless for a player, in that it does nothing to protect everyone else in your party (and it might screw them), and a DM will quickly have you encounter enemies who can workaround it somehow, if only to challenge you. (Also, the Uncarnate otherwise sucks).

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-02, 10:23 AM
Doesn't melfs acid arrow work like the orbs as well.

No. Only instantaneous duration conjurations are unaffected. Melf's Acid Arrow isn't instantaneous duration.

Glimbur
2009-12-02, 12:27 PM
I believe you'd be vulnerable to rifts in dimensions? A la Bag of holding + Portable hole.

That combo only pulls in things within a 10' radius. An AMF is also a 10' radius. The bag and hole will not function or interact within the AMF. So this plan is foiled by geometry.

I don't see why a Living AMF is unkillable... difficult and annoying, yes, but it's just an ooze. Power Attack it.

Optimystik
2009-12-02, 03:23 PM
Depends. If you make an Ardent, with practiced Manifester you might not even notices that you're missing the levels.

Well, the problem with an Ardent is that no PrC (including the Uncarnate itself) grants an Ardent additional mantles. Furthermore, Practiced Manifester only increases ML - useful for augmentation and breaking SR/PR, but not for powers known and power points. They'll also miss out on the granted powers of the missing mantles, which themselves can be quite useful.

For instance, an Ardent 5/Uncarnate 10 with Practiced Manifester will still have 2 less mantles, 4 less powers known and a whopping 89 less power points than an Ardent 15. They also drop from a D6 to a D4 for those 10 levels. I'm not sure that being able to walk through walls is worth it, especially since both Psions and Ardents can gain concealment and pass barriers by other means.

erikun
2009-12-02, 03:51 PM
By the way: a Forcecage would hold incorporeal creatures in place, right?
I see nothing about an incorporeal being able to change their shape, so as long as they can't get through the bars (or it is a solid Forcecage) they are trapped.

The can also be trapped by a Resilient Sphere, Hold Person, or petrification. Of course, none of these an be cast inside an active AMF, not even Wall of Force. I'm not 100% sure if an Antimagic Field neutralizes a Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), though.

And I have to agree with Person Man, it's more practical for a by-the-rules BBEG MacGuffin than a player character. Still, I'd think that a Lurk Uncarnate or Psychic Rogue Uncarnate would be rather amusing. Automatically succeed on move silently, pass through walls and doors, bluff/disguise bonuses, touch attack sneak attacks? A ring of invisibility would probably serve them better than an Antimagic Field in that case. Not exactly a powerful character, but definitely an interesting one with several new options.

Optimystik
2009-12-02, 04:05 PM
I'm not 100% sure if an Antimagic Field neutralizes a Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), though.

That comic sparked a heated debate; however, by RAW an AMF suppresses a Forcecage since it isn't specifically listed as an exception like Wall of Force is. RAI and RAMS may differ.

olentu
2009-12-02, 04:36 PM
That comic sparked a heated debate; however, by RAW an AMF suppresses a Forcecage since it isn't specifically listed as an exception like Wall of Force is. RAI and RAMS may differ.

Well I would have to say that it is unclear due to wording. Though as antimagic fields also suppress themselves it is not quite so big a deal as it seems.

Optimystik
2009-12-02, 04:50 PM
Well I would have to say that it is unclear due to wording, though as antimagic fields also suppress themselves it is not quite so big a deal as it seems.

Do they? A tornado doesn't collapse just because it has a vacuum in the center, after all. (Or rather, it does, it just takes a while.)

olentu
2009-12-02, 04:54 PM
Do they? A tornado doesn't collapse just because it has a vacuum in the center, after all. (Or rather, it does, it just takes a while.)

The spell antimagic field does give itself immunity to other antimagic fields but does not, in any place I can recall, give itself immunity to itself so one ends up with the rather problematic problem of said spell suppressing itself.