A Truly Unique Class - Quasinaught

[Rithaniel]

Have you ever just wanted to play something strange, an abomination, something shouldn't be? Well, I have, but I never have seen a satisfactorily 'strange' class, so, I made one myself: The Quasinaught (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Quasinaught_(3.5e_Class)).

Now, the question is, does this class get that conecpt across clearly enough? Also, is this class, well balanced, in your eyes?

[sigurd]

Perhaps they shouldn't be but that doesn't relieve you of the requirement to describe what they are. You may have constructed an enigma in your own mind but if you want other people to use it as a class you are going to have to describe it and how it interacts with a fantasy world.

Shows imagination but it needs exposure and description according to the game rules.


Sigurd

[Rithaniel]

Perhaps they shouldn't be but that doesn't relieve you of the requirement to describe what they are. You may have constructed an enigma in your own mind but if you want other people to use it as a class you are going to have to describe it and how it interacts with a fantasy world.

Shows imagination but it needs exposure and description according to the game rules.


Sigurd

Um, I don't really understand your qualm, considering that I explained what the class is, it's a character whose body is seemless with that which is unexistance, what lies beyond existance, the antithesis to reality, and therefore, he technically does not exist. A quasinaught would be more similar to a gateway, or a hole, than an actual person. I explain all this, and more, in that article that I so painstakingly put together, and linked above. Though, I cannot tell you how this kind of a character would impact your world, considering your world could be freaking horror story, where, the more evil a character is, the better off they are, and this class wouldn't be a bad guy, or, your world could include mostly pixies and unicorns, and this class would be veiwed as the most ultimate, repungent evil conceivable, or, your world could not even have 'anti-existance' in it, which would make this class be something more akin to a worshiper of the far realms or whatnot.

Point is, I can't tell you how it interacts with a fantasy world, cause no two fantasy worlds are the same, determining how it would interact with your world, would be your job, I'm just here to tell you what it is.

Also, you mentioned "according to the game rules", but, I couldn't find anything in your post relating to game rules, it was all about fluff. Did I miss something?

[Darkkwalker]

I think you might get better replies if you actually posted the class rather than posting a link.

[Starbuck_II]

Unreal Rend: To a quasinaught, the physical world is alien, and fragile, easily brought to an untimely end. At second level, a quasinaught gains the ability to designate any attack he makes as an unreal rend by sacrificing (1 + the quasinaught's Intelligence modifier) hit points. A unreal rend is resolved as a normal attack, but adds +1, and the quasinaughts Intelligence modifier, as a distortion bonus to both attack roll and damage. The distortion bonus to attack roll and damage this class feature grants, and the hit point cost required to make an attack an unreal rend, each increases by 1 at every two level after 2nd (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

Explain this in layman's terms?
What do you +1 and Int mod. Then says bonus increase...
Is it the +1 that increases?

Do you mean 1 + Int Mod rather +1 and Int Mod?
Give an example please like at level 2 it becomes 2 + Int Mod if that is the case.

[Ashtagon]

Conceptually, the fluff tells me this should be a prestige class. Base class suggests to me there's an academy of sorts for it, or that it is something easily learned, at least the basics of it. The fluff adequately describes the mid-high level guys. But a 1st level guy seems a little... lost?

Lore: DC 5 is never usually written, because anyone can take 10, even untrained. These should start at DC 10.

Actuality: ok, you swap a couple of ability scores. I'm left wondering why, in terms of characterisation. What does this ability represent you doing? It also opens up some powerful stat dumping options, which could be seen as abuse.

Know the Endless : works for me.

Unreal Rend: This is basically a smite variant that costs hp to use. With a healbot in two, this could be abused, but not badly so. The design flaw though is that the cost to use it rises as you gain in levels. The extra cost (and extra bonus) should be an available option as you gain levels, but not required.

Fast Healing: ok, this breaks unreal rend utterly.

Uncanny Dodge : fine

Undone Focus : An extra +8 to either of two ability scores chosen at 1st level, over the course of his career. This is crazy stuff here. You only ever see this on rare prestige classes from 3e (most of which got written out in 3.5).

Anticipate : I'd make this a serious bonus on his surprise check instead. Absolute immunities to rolls are poor game design (cf. irresistible force vs immovable object).

Improved Uncanny Dodge : fine

Physical Schism : fine, nice flavour too

Spacial Error : fine, although potentially weird if mixed with size abuse builds.

Material Schism : Looks like an extension of physical schism.

Unbreakable : For a capstone, kinda meh. No one uses non-lethal attacks at that level of play anyway. They just kill them and speak with dead if the target had any important info.

Overall: This is better rewritten as a prestige class in terms of overall concept. Some of the abilities synergise so well that the class becomes a no-brainer for tank builds, which needs fixing.

[grautry]

Physical Schism (Ex): A quasinaught is so far away from true existance, that he can actually tear people away from it with his mere presence, letting them feel truly forsaken within the undone. At eleventh level, a quasinaught gains the ability to, once a round, select a single character whom he can see. The character selected loses the ability to take attacks of opportunity until the beginning of the quasinaughts next round, at which point the quasinaught may select another character, or the same character.

This is badly worded. Also, you should probably clearly state what action is it.

And to be frank? There's really nothing unique about the class. The fluff isn't bad or anything(except for the over-abundance of Purple Prose (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleProse)) , but there's very little that is actually inventive or new.

Let's take a look at the class features:
- a bonus to AC
- fast healing
- bonus to attack rolls/damage with a weird type
- uncanny dodge
- bonus to stats
- never surprised
- immune to AoO(super-tumble)
- better reach
- swap ability bonuses
- immunity to non-lethal damage
This is basically a mish-mash of abilities that already exist(or are enhanced versions of abilities that already exist), whether in the form of class features, feats, skills or spells.

The only unique thing(at least as far as I remember), is Physical Schism, which is a cool idea.

It's not a bad class really and it's probably not broken balance-wise. But, if you're trying to claim that you created a 'truly unique class' you're going to have to do a whole lot better.

[sigurd]

There is no such thing as a quasinaught. This is a completely true, and irrevocable fact, yet this does not stop them from doing things. These facts make quasinaughts infinitely dangerous, something to be avoided at every expense, for fear of being touched by that which isn't real, for fear of being doused in unexistance. Quasinaughts exist as holes in reality, almost as gateways into the inphysical, and the inconcievable. Quasinaughts are individuals who have a negative to existance within themselves, who blend seemlessly with that which is paradoxial, that which is uncomprehendable, yet they still exist, jutting out into the material vein with their perversion of existance, and contorting it to their every whim.


That is a nice paradox but it doesn't describe what they are. It says that they cannot be.

1. They are not but they are.
2. Boy, they're dangerous.
3. Quasinaughts are inconceivable. They are where they're not on the borders of un-stuff.
4. They are individuals an internal contradiction that contorts reality.


Maybe you have an Idea of their size, aims, objectives or why I'd want to be one of these but you haven't communicated it to the reader. You describe with negatives - there must be a way you can cast them in a light to tell us what they are. Solid? Wraith? Living? Some sort of hook to allow the reader to see how they work inside the game world you are so busy denying.

It sounds a lot more like you are trying to stat out a unique monster rather than something that can be taken as a class. Base classes are examples of a regular thing. There are a million fighters,rangers, wizards etc... If the creature is unique it should be a template or a very very rare prestige class.

[Innis Cabal]

Going to...third? this being a prestige class...its also sorta meh for flavor. So they shouldn't exist...yay? Then why do they...things that shouldn't exist for one reason or another typically don't. And when they do, in fantasy, they have a hard time dealing with the fact that they shouldn't. If they are literal Nothings cast in Something...Something tends to fix those holes...how does this class/race/what ever it is your aiming for survive.

And not to go after the title, but this concept is hardu "unique". In fact, I found myself more turned away by the cliche "Cosmic Horror" vibe then anything else.

[Ormagoden]

The fluff is kinda nice, the class needs a bit of work as suggested.

My main contribution is to set you in a direction that might help you more accurately detail people of this class.

Take a look at earthdawn and shadowrun (specifically in reference to creatures called The Horrors.)

I'm not sure how well they are covered in the most recent editions of those games however; you might have to do some research but I think it will be rewarding.

[Milskidasith]

Actuality (Ex): A quasinaught is a physical impossibility, something that, by virtue of what it is, cannot be. This removes certain limitations upon quasinaughts, allowing them to do things in way that make no sense, and to rewrite the world around them with but a thought. At first level, a quasinaught selects two ability scores. These two ability scores switch with each other in some regards to certain stats of the quasinaught. Each ability score has a corresponding dependent stat, as shown on Table: Actuality, and, when both ability scores are selected, then the dependent stats for these ability scores switch with other. So, for example, a quasinaught who selected Dexterity and Charisma would add his Charisma to his AC, instead of Dexterity, and would add his Dexterity to all Charisma based skills, instead of Charisma.

Since it replaces all checks, this does absolutely nothing. Seriously, switching two stats for all means just means you have... no changes, you just change what stats you do and don't dump.


Know the Endless (Ex): A quasinaught is unexistance, and unexistance is found within a quasinaught. This fact lends a quasinaught protection, as long as he is aware of it. A quasinaught adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) as a deflection bonus to his AC. If the quasinaught is wearing a piece of armor that has a maximum Dex bonus, then the deflection bonus is restricted by this maximum Dex bonus in the same way his Dex bonus is restricted by it.

Purple prosey and generic, but acceptable.

Unreal Rend: To a quasinaught, the physical world is alien, and fragile, easily brought to an untimely end. At second level, a quasinaught gains the ability to designate any attack he makes as an unreal rend by sacrificing (1 + the quasinaught's Intelligence modifier) hit points. A unreal rend is resolved as a normal attack, but adds +1, and the quasinaughts Intelligence modifier, as a distortion bonus to both attack roll and damage. The distortion bonus to attack roll and damage this class feature grants, and the hit point cost required to make an attack an unreal rend, each increases by 1 at every two level after 2nd (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

So a bad smite that costs you HP, huh? Eh, could be worse, though getting worse as you level up is rather odd (granted, taking 10 HP at level 10 isn't too painful, it's just odd).


Fast Healing (Ex): A quasinaught isn't real, and as such, they find it difficult, at times, to conform to the rigid pathways led by the flow of time, and can gain the benefit of many hours of rest, in instances. At third level, A quasinaught regains hit points at an extraordinarally fast rate, regaining 1 hit point per round, as long as he has at least 1 hit point remaining. The ammount that the quasinaught heals each round increases by 1 every 3 levels after third (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th).

Fair enough.



Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A quasinaught is able to see, and conform to, the flow of the world with spuernatural ease. At fifth level, a quasinaught can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Yet another generic ability described with loving purple prose.


Undone Focus (Ex): A quasinaught eventually grows into their impossible power, heightening themselves to a new degree of power. At fifth level, a quasinaught selects one of the two ability scores he selected with his Actuality class feature, and gains a +2 bonus to that ability score. This bonus is unique and permenant, never going away, and stacking with all other bonuses to ability scores. At ninth level, and every four levels there after (13th, 17th, etc.), the quasinaught gains another +2 bonus to one of the two ability scores he selected with his Actuality class feature. A quasinaught can select the same ability scores twice, and this bonus stack with itself.

Ability score bonuses? Is this supposed to be unique?


Anticipate: Eventually, a quasinaught learns to know of the flow of a battle before it even begins. At seventh level, a quasinaught gains the ability to act normally in a surprise round, no matter the circumstances.

So they've got foresight. Nothing new, except bad purple prose.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A quasinaught seems to be so centered at times, that nothing, truly nothing can catch him unaware. A quasinaught of tenth level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the rogue has at least four more rogue levels than the quasinaught.

The prose is hurting now, make it stop. Or make a unique feature worth reading it for.


Physical Schism (Ex): A quasinaught is so far away from true existance, that he can actually tear people away from it with his mere presence, letting them feel truly forsaken within the undone. At eleventh level, a quasinaught gains the ability to, once a round, select a single character whom he can see. The character selected loses the ability to take attacks of opportunity until the beginning of the quasinaughts next round, at which point the quasinaught may select another character, or the same character.

So you can make a standard action no save thing to prevent AoOs? I dunno. Should be Su, for sure.


Spacial Error (Ex): A quasinaught is something that is beyond the dry restrictions of the physcial, of space, of shape, and who can, after a time, ignore these things, stretching out past what they would normally be able to. At thirteenth level, a quasinaught gains a 5 foot increase in his reach with all weapons he weilds. The is still able to strike foes that he would normally have been able to hit if it weren't for this increase in reach, but may now strike foes that are farther away.

So he gets Aberrant Reach as a bonus feat? You could have just said that.


Material Schism (Ex): Eventually, a quasinaught grows strong enough, powerful enough, that it seems he cannot be touched at all, as he moves, slipping away from attacks with an almost unsettling smoothness. At seventeenth level, no character can never take an attacks of opportunity that the quasinaught provoked, making them essentially immune to attacks of opportunity.

This might be broken with some combo, but hey, at least at 17th level we get something that hasn't been done before!


Unbreakable (Ex): The blood of a quasinaught is constantly flowing with forces that should not even exist, this fact eventually changes the quasinaughts body into something virtually indestructable. At nineteenth level, a quasinaught gains immunity to nonlethal damage, with only one exception: if a quasinaught has regeneration of any kind, then he still takes nonlethal damage that would normally be lethal damage if it weren't for the regeneration.

Woo, nonlethal immunity. There are spells for that, too.

[Rithaniel]

Okay, lot of post accumulated while I was away, so, I'll go through and see about adressing each one before I get off... now then...

(1) Well, I went to the effort of making the class elsewhere already, and haven't learned the formatting of this website as of yet, so this is the best means I have, bear with me.

(2) It is 1+Int to attack and damage, in exchange for 1+Int hp. The only reason it costs hp, though, is becasue you also gain that boost on 'to-hit', making what would otherwise be a +20 to hit roll, be a +33 attack roll, and almost garunteeing a hit.

(3) This class is part of a series of classes, the psuedonaught, the quasinaught, and the xenonaught, and each are marked because they are meant to be able to stand alone, you don't have to be anything else to be one of these things.

(4) Never even heard of 'purple prose' till today, but, after reading that article, I'll go ahead and tell you guys to stop b*tching about me adding a line of fluff to the game mechanics part of this class, it's like parsley on a steak, might not be necessary, but hey, it looks pretty. Past that, I described things they way they were best described.

(5) Lore thing is standard formatting on that website, just plugging and chugging.

(6) Actuality is the key power of the class, and offers it some unique options, such as getting hp to be based on Int, and balancing out the Unreal Rend ability, by granting extra hp. There are also several other options that open doors for this class via that ability, such as switching Int and Str, and allowing them to deal 2.5 their Int on an Unreal Rend with a two-handed weapon. Also, it was really intended to be up to the players interpretation what happens, and why these ability scores switch.

(7) Fast Healing is there to make sure this guy survives his own series of attacks, and doesn't do much even to that degree all the same, since you can get up to 104 hp lost due to yourself with just this class unoptimized, and then you heal 6 points of it. Good part is, all your attacks prolly just hit, and dealt total bonus damage equal to the damage you just took, plus damage you normally would deal.

(8) Undone Focus was inspired by F&K's Fiendish Brute, and the War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook, and is there to offer extra versatility, making this class better than others in some way, as all classes are better than others in some way.

(9) Surprise Check? This is referring to suprise rounds, I've never heard of a surprise check.

(10) Yeah, on Unbreakable, I've heard that from others as well, and I think I may add in a new ability to the class, at high levels, something a bit better than 'no more non-lethal'.

(11) Well, the class was more unique due to the issue of fluff, since no ability is original, when you look at it that way. I mean, even Time Stands Still is just copying full attack options, which have already been done, right? I mean, it's just doing full attack options in a new way, right? :smallannoyed:

(12) Physical Schism is not an action, it's like with the dodge feat, you just pick someone.

(13) Well, to put it as simply as I can, the idea behind this class is "I seem to be a man (hence the 'quasi'), and I can do things that a man can do, and am physical like any man, standing upright, breathing, everything a man would do, but, unexistance is seemless with me, making it so that I do not exist, in actuality." if that isn't clear in the article, then please, tell me, how could it be cleared up?

(14) As for the ragging on the originality, and the concept of the class, then, well, I can't respond to that, if you don't like the idea, then you don't like the idea, nothing more to it, you can go ahead and keep playing, um, whatever it is you play.

(15) I never took interest in Shadowrun or other stuff, but, trust me, I know what people of this class would be like, I just need a way to word it more clearly, as people seem to have difficulty with my wordology.

(16) Actuality does a whole lot more than nothing, see above.

(17) Don't b*tch about flowers, and how is a mental bonus gained as deflection to AC generic?

(18) It's odd, I agree, but, then again, an unreal man is odd as well.

(19) Uncanny Dodge is always useful, and don't b*tch about the lilies.

(20) Name another class that gets a bonus to ability scores that stacks with everything else.

(21) It's not an action at all, as already stated, and this class gains it's power from something that doesn't follow rules by virtue of what it is, it's f*cking (Ex).

(22) Where the f*ck did you see a single mention of there being a bonus feat involved in this?

Okay, I think I got everything, and I'll just hammer a few points home. One, this wasn't unique because of class features, seeing as class features are never unique, considering they must actually do something, this was unique because of the conecpt behind the class. Two, seriously, don't b*tch about the use of fluff, it's f*cking fluff, for crying out loud.

Alright, I think that's about it, enjoy responding, folks, and I apoligize for my language, I just say those things when people are stating irrelevant things, that barely are even related to the issue at hand, such as this 'prose' complaint that fluff should not be written, or whatever.

[Milskidasith]

(2) It is 1+Int to attack and damage, in exchange for 1+Int hp. The only reason it costs hp, though, is becasue you also gain that boost on 'to-hit', making what would otherwise be a +20 to hit roll, be a +33 attack roll, and almost garunteeing a hit.

The damage is literally too low to be useful. It's an annoyance to calculate, and, considering this is literally the only active ability the class gets (I.E: it's really underpowered compared to even the fighter, since feats beat nothing), it doesn't need a drawback.


(4) Never even heard of 'purple prose' till today, but, after reading that article, I'll go ahead and tell you guys to stop b*tching about me adding a line of fluff to the game mechanics part of this class, it's like parsley on a steak, might not be necessary, but hey, it looks pretty. Past that, I described things they way they were best described.


There are no details, though. It's a bunch of flowery words that add nothing to the class. I don't know if I'm dealing with somebody who looks normal but just doesn't follow the rules of the universe, some tentacle'd abomination, or somebody who defies geometry with the angles of his body.


(6) Actuality is the key power of the class, and offers it some unique options, such as getting hp to be based on Int, and balancing out the Unreal Rend ability, by granting extra hp. There are also several other options that open doors for this class via that ability, such as switching Int and Str, and allowing them to deal 2.5 their Int on an Unreal Rend with a two-handed weapon. Also, it was really intended to be up to the players interpretation what happens, and why these ability scores switch.

I did not see the table and assumed it was for all abilities. My bad. It's... somewhat useful, I guess.


(7) Fast Healing is there to make sure this guy survives his own series of attacks, and doesn't do much even to that degree all the same, since you can get up to 104 hp lost due to yourself with just this class unoptimized, and then you heal 6 points of it. Good part is, all your attacks prolly just hit, and dealt total bonus damage equal to the damage you just took, plus damage you normally would deal.


That's a terrible amount of damage dealt (104, I mean). Honestly, uberchargers can get full attacks with each attack dealing massively more damage than this, just with a fighter.


(8) Undone Focus was inspired by F&K's Fiendish Brute, and the War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook, and is there to offer extra versatility, making this class better than others in some way, as all classes are better than others in some way.


Ignoring the inaccuracy of the last point (monks are in no way stronger than wizards, to use a generic example), giving ability score bonuses isn't that unique. You said this was a unique class... and then copy abilities from other classes (Also, war hulk was unique, because it gave no BAB; the strength was to make up for the loss of iteratives, and the fact you got full attack whirlwind attack as a capstone was, again, to make up for the fact you only had a 2 attack full attack routine.)



(10) Yeah, on Unbreakable, I've heard that from others as well, and I think I may add in a new ability to the class, at high levels, something a bit better than 'no more non-lethal'.


Capstones generally suck,, so that's par for the course.


(11) Well, the class was more unique due to the issue of fluff, since no ability is original, when you look at it that way. I mean, even Time Stands Still is just copying full attack options, which have already been done, right? I mean, it's just doing full attack options in a new way, right? :smallannoyed:

No, Time Stands Still is new because you are getting a free full attack, which hasn't been done. Slightly altering smite evil and giving the class purple prose filled fluff that says nothing doesn't make this unique.


(12) Physical Schism is not an action, it's like with the dodge feat, you just pick someone.

Since it does not specify, it defaults to a standard action. Poor wording.


(13) Well, to put it as simply as I can, the idea behind this class is "I seem to be a man (hence the 'quasi'), and I can do things that a man can do, and am physical like any man, standing upright, breathing, everything a man would do, but, unexistance is seemless with me, making it so that I do not exist, in actuality." if that isn't clear in the article, then please, tell me, how could it be cleared up?

Well for one, that doesn't make sense at all to begin with. He exists, but he doesn't? I mean, yeah, real life quantum physics can be weird, but it's a really poor version of fluff. All your fluff is totally unclear purple prose with no actual description.


(14) As for the ragging on the originality, and the concept of the class, then, well, I can't respond to that, if you don't like the idea, then you don't like the idea, nothing more to it, you can go ahead and keep playing, um, whatever it is you play.

No, I like the idea... it's just it has no new crunch to go with it, and generic lovecraftian "it cannot exist and is beyond comprehension" purple prosey fluff.


(17) Don't b*tch about flowers, and how is a mental bonus gained as deflection to AC generic?


Well, besides the fact that, being deflection, it doesn't stack (so therefore is worse than other mental bonuses to AC): Monk. Yes, it's a piss poor class, but at least it was piss poor first.


(18) It's odd, I agree, but, then again, an unreal man is odd as well.

Odd as in lacking class features to do something useful, yes.


(19) Uncanny Dodge is always useful, and don't b*tch about the lilies.

It's still nothing new, though. A "truly unique" class should have some truly unique features. Actuality is the only one, and there are feats that can replicate it fairly well.


(20) Name another class that gets a bonus to ability scores that stacks with everything else.

War hulk.


(22) Where the f*ck did you see a single mention of there being a bonus feat involved in this?

Aberrant reach is a feat for characters that aren't quite normal to give them +5 reach. Your class feature gives you +5 reach because you aren't normal. Ergo, you're getting Aberrant Reach as a bonus feat in all but name.


Okay, I think I got everything, and I'll just hammer a few points home. One, this wasn't unique because of class features, seeing as class features are never unique, considering they must actually do something, this was unique because of the conecpt behind the class. Two, seriously, don't b*tch about the use of fluff, it's f*cking fluff, for crying out loud.

Class features can be unique and still do something... I don't even see how you can argue class features can't be unique. Warblades, Paladins, Swordsages, Wizards, and even the lowly Monk all bring something to the table that, at the time, no other class could. That's unique. This isn't. It's also weak, because it gets a pitiful smite that hurts itself. As for the fluff: If it's bad fluff, it's bad fluff.


Alright, I think that's about it, enjoy responding, folks, and I apoligize for my language, I just say those things when people are stating irrelevant things, that barely are even related to the issue at hand, such as this 'prose' complaint that fluff should not be written, or whatever.

I'm complaining that the fluff is purple prose: overtly wordy in describing something that you could describe more laconically for greater effect (or actually describe at all, in your case, since it's actually got less description than real lovecraftian horrors do). Fluff is good. Badly written fluff is not.

[Temotei]

Truly, that is a review. I'm agreeing with Milskidasith. :smallbiggrin:

[Rithaniel]

The damage is literally too low to be useful. It's an annoyance to calculate, and, considering this is literally the only active ability the class gets (I.E: it's really underpowered compared to even the fighter, since feats beat nothing), it doesn't need a drawback.

On thing: Massive, Boost, To Hit. Lets look at a typical AC at level 20, that of 40. At level 20, lets say you are getting +35/+30/+25/+20 on your attacks, meaning that the first attack has a 80% chance of hitting, the second has a 55% chance of hitting, the third has a 30% chance of hitting, and the last has a 5% chance of hitting. This, via the use of averages, shows us that you are only likely to deal 42.5% of what your damage would be if all attacks hit, that's less than half. Now, lets assume you made each of those attacks Unreal Rends, taking 104 damage in the process, your attack sequence is now: +61/+56/+51/+46, meaning that the first attack has a 95% chance of hitting, the second has a 95% chance of hitting, the third has a 95% chance of hitting, and the last has a 95% chance of hitting. This, via the use of averages, shows us that you are now likely to deal 95% of what your damage would be if all attacks hit, with 104 damage added on, which, with a bit of math, is averaged out to 98.8 extra damage, before damage from whatever feats or whatnot you have. The bonus in 'to-hit' is staggering, as you can see, and, coupled with the extra damage, you wind up above a lion totem barbarian who is power attacking like a mofo, but at the cost of a chunk of hp, I think this balances nicely. In fact, this build takes such a punch in the gut at the same time, that it might actually be, as you said, underpowered, but, Actuality helps it back up in the process.


There are no details, though. It's a bunch of flowery words that add nothing to the class. I don't know if I'm dealing with somebody who looks normal but just doesn't follow the rules of the universe, some tentacle'd abomination, or somebody who defies geometry with the angles of his body.

Again, parsley, it may serve no purpose, but it's there to look pretty, so stop b*tching about the words used, and try offering advice, like, maybe where you think I could put in what they look like.


I did not see the table and assumed it was for all abilities. My bad. It's... somewhat useful, I guess.

A: You generate stats in order, in which case the class just lets you do what you should be able to do anyway
B: You give your players magic items that affect stats they don't use, and decide to use this class to switch so the +6 cloak of charisma is useful on the fighter.

A: Well, name a way to get Str to AC, or to base your skill points off of Wisdom, or to get Con based damage output, this was the intent of the class feature, to add customizability to the class, and to potentially take away a touch of M.A.D. that it used to have.
B: You only ever switch two stats, and, once you pick em, they never change.


That's a terrible amount of damage dealt (104, I mean). Honestly, uberchargers can get full attacks with each attack dealing massively more damage than this, just with a fighter.

See above, but, also, the bonus in to hit is so large that a Quasinaught can PA for -20, and still wind up +6 better than a fighter, so, using the same strategy, the quasinaught comes out ridiculously victorious, but with taking a large bullet in the side at the same time, making this fantastic damage output be double edged.


Ignoring the inaccuracy of the last point (monks are in no way stronger than wizards, to use a generic example), giving ability score bonuses isn't that unique. You said this was a unique class... and then copy abilities from other classes (Also, war hulk was unique, because it gave no BAB; the strength was to make up for the loss of iteratives, and the fact you got full attack whirlwind attack as a capstone was, again, to make up for the fact you only had a 2 attack full attack routine.)

I know the War Hulk, but, honestly, I didn't copy abilities, fyi. I never bothered reading the paladin, or whichever class gets smite, unreal rend was a independant creation. Given, UD and IUD weren't my creation, but, hey, I wanted em on there. I never bothered reading most of the classes you claim I copied stuff from, and Know the Endless was the same things, yes, but with more restrictions, and the added benefit that it stacks with other ways to get Int to AC, seeing as it's deflection, so, if Time Stand Still is unique cause it gives more attacks, then this is unique cause it gives more AC.


Capstones generally suck,, so that's par for the course.

Nah, that's not a good way to veiw this, I'm gonna have to fix that part.


No, Time Stands Still is new because you are getting a free full attack, which hasn't been done. Slightly altering smite evil and giving the class purple prose filled fluff that says nothing doesn't make this unique.

As far as I can tell you have simply assumed that fluff is prose if it uses big words.


Since it does not specify, it defaults to a standard action. Poor wording.

So? Dodge doesn't specify what kind of action, I guess that means it's a standard action to use, huh?


Well for one, that doesn't make sense at all to begin with. He exists, but he doesn't? I mean, yeah, real life quantum physics can be weird, but it's a really poor version of fluff. All your fluff is totally unclear purple prose with no actual description.

If you can't wrap your head around this concept, then I apoligize, but I can't help you.


No, I like the idea... it's just it has no new crunch to go with it, and generic lovecraftian "it cannot exist and is beyond comprehension" purple prosey fluff.

...that was more directed at someone else I think. Though, thank you, it's good to know you like the idea, but, sometimes writting 'unreality' over and over again is boring, and would make for a boring read, but, luckily, this word has several synonyms, which are easy to substitute for it, so, that's what I did. I guess you just mistook that as prose, cause that's all I can find that might lead one to such a conclusion.


Well, besides the fact that, being deflection, it doesn't stack (so therefore is worse than other mental bonuses to AC): Monk. Yes, it's a piss poor class, but at least it was piss poor first.

Ah, but you forget, you can wear it while wearing armor, granting you actually decent AC, as opposed to the monk, which actually was, as you said, piss poor.


Odd as in lacking class features to do something useful, yes.

funny fallacy is funny.


It's still nothing new, though. A "truly unique" class should have some truly unique features. Actuality is the only one, and there are feats that can replicate it fairly well.

As was stated before, no, there are not very many copied class features on this guy, considering I had no knowledge of these things before I made the class.


Aberrant reach is a feat for characters that aren't quite normal to give them +5 reach. Your class feature gives you +5 reach because you aren't normal. Ergo, you're getting Aberrant Reach as a bonus feat in all but name.

Never heard of it before now. Q.E.D. your arguement is invalid.


Class features can be unique and still do something... I don't even see how you can argue class features can't be unique. Warblades, Paladins, Swordsages, Wizards, and even the lowly Monk all bring something to the table that, at the time, no other class could. That's unique. This isn't. It's also weak, because it gets a pitiful smite that hurts itself. As for the fluff: If it's bad fluff, it's bad fluff.

Lets look at a random spell, antimagic field. Oh, well, that's unique, it's the only thing that undoes magic, it's ANTIMAGIC, oh, but wait, it simply builds off of the pre-existing magic system, that makes it not unique. :smalleek:

Now, trust me, I don't actually beleive this, it was just the logic I was using to mock your flawed logic, which you were using to assert that these things weren't unique, I apoligize for the rudeness, but, you were asking for it.


I'm complaining that the fluff is purple prose: overtly wordy in describing something that you could describe more laconically for greater effect (or actually describe at all, in your case, since it's actually got less description than real lovecraftian horrors do). Fluff is good. Badly written fluff is not.

Sorry for having a thesaurus in my head, dude.

[Milskidasith]

On thing: Massive, Boost, To Hit. Lets look at a typical AC at level 20, that of 40. At level 20, lets say you are getting +35/+30/+25/+20 on your attacks, meaning that the first attack has a 80% chance of hitting, the second has a 55% chance of hitting, the third has a 30% chance of hitting, and the last has a 5% chance of hitting. This, via the use of averages, shows us that you are only likely to deal 42.5% of what your damage would be if all attacks hit, that's less than half. Now, lets assume you made each of those attacks Unreal Rends, taking 104 damage in the process, your attack sequence is now: +61/+56/+51/+46, meaning that the first attack has a 95% chance of hitting, the second has a 95% chance of hitting, the third has a 95% chance of hitting, and the last has a 95% chance of hitting. This, via the use of averages, shows us that you are now likely to deal 95% of what your damage would be if all attacks hit, with 104 damage added on, which, with a bit of math, is averaged out to 98.8 extra damage, before damage from whatever feats or whatnot you have. The bonus in 'to-hit' is staggering, as you can see, and, coupled with the extra damage, you wind up above a lion totem barbarian who is power attacking like a mofo, but at the cost of a chunk of hp, I think this balances nicely.

How do you figure only a +35 to hit? Even without feats you can easily get a +35 (20 BAB, +10 strength, +5 from your sword). That's not even factoring in having strength boosted well (a +13 isn't impossible), having feats to improve your attack, the +2 from charging, or any number of other things. Plus, 104 damage is pathetic; I'll take hitting once if I can hit for a few hundred more than that. Plus, you know, Quickened True Strike is better than this for gishes.


In fact, this build takes such a punch in the gut at the same time, that it might actually be, as you said, underpowered, but, Actuality helps it back up in the process.

Bonuses to your stats don't help back up a weak ability. They just allow you to last longer without using your weak ability.



Again, parsley, it may serve no purpose, but it's there to look pretty, so stop b*tching about the words used, and try offering advice, like, maybe where you think I could put in what they look like.

Everywhere. You have no actual description of any of your abilities, just purple prose about how unreal the person is. That's so vague it could fit any kind of fluff.



A: Well, name a way to get Str to AC, or to base your skill points off of Wisdom, or to get Con based damage output, this was the intent of the class feature, to add customizability to the class, and to potentially take away a touch of M.A.D. that it used to have.

It's only stat used, ever, is Int. If you want to switch damage to Int (which is possible) you can do it, but it's not a huge thing. Yes, it is unique, but it isn't particularly good, nor is there a good fluff reason for it's existence (He's not real, so suddenly being really personable means he can withstand being stabbed better?)


B: You only ever switch two stats, and, once you pick em, they never change.

I never implied anything besides this.



See above, but, also, the bonus in to hit is so large that a Quasinaught can PA for -20, and still wind up +6 better than a fighter, so, using the same strategy, the quasinaught comes out ridiculously victorious, but with taking a large bullet in the side at the same time, making this fantastic damage output be double edged.

A hundred damage is not fantastic. It's abysmal at level 20. Furthermore, nobody power attacks with their attack, they do it with their AC. Shock Trooper.


I know the War Hulk, but, honestly, I didn't copy abilities, fyi. I never bothered reading the paladin, or whichever class gets smite, unreal rend was a independant creation.

Ok, seriously, you never a core base class enough to even know about the smite ability? I'm declaring shenanigans on that one.


I never bothered reading most of the classes you claim I copied stuff from,

Do not claim to be unique if you do not know your subject matter. This would be similar to me saying "Hey look, I just invented a new classification for the colors of the visible spectrum and I just named everything the same but with Milski in front of it (Milskired, Milskiorange, Milskiyellow, etc.)


and Know the Endless was the same things, yes, but with more restrictions, and the added benefit that it stacks with other ways to get Int to AC,seeing as it's deflection,

Deflection bonuses don't stack. If you have any other source of a deflection bonus, it does not work. However, all other int to AC things are generally dodge or untyped bonuses, which do stack.


so, if Time Stand Still is unique cause it gives more attacks, then this is unique cause it gives more AC.

This is a fallacy. Time Stands Still is unique because you get an extra full attack by using a maneuver, which is also a unique system. Yes, it gets you mechanically the same thing as just saying you have another full attack, but A: That's reductio ad absurdium (would you also argue that all things in D&D are non unique because they can be used to change the information on your character sheet?), and B: because it had not, in fact, been done before the ToB (AFAIK). Plus, your deflection bonus to AC gets you less than any other stat to AC and doesn't stack with common magic items, so it's fairly useless.


As far as I can tell you have simply assumed that fluff is prose if it uses big words.


No, it's purple prose because it uses big words when smaller ones would do just as well, and still tells less than I could say in fewer words. It's bad writing. Unlike what your English teachers say in third grade, finding multisyllabic synonyms to common words and using a different flowery adjective for every noun in your writing does not make you a better writer.


So? Dodge doesn't specify what kind of action, I guess that means it's a standard action to use, huh?

It specifies an action. Please read the feat before arguing.


If you can't wrap your head around this concept, then I apoligize, but I can't help you.

It's a vague concept, which is the problem. He doesn't exist, but he does? It's a paradox.


...that was more directed at someone else I think. Though, thank you, it's good to know you like the idea, but, sometimes writting 'unreality' over and over again is boring, and would make for a boring read, but, luckily, this word has several synonyms, which are easy to substitute for it, so, that's what I did. I guess you just mistook that as prose, cause that's all I can find that might lead one to such a conclusion.

Here's an idea: If all your class has going for it is "It's not real" then you might want to get a more specific concept rather than look up flowery words. You're pretty much admitting to doing exactly what purple prose is: Not having anything to say (just unreality) so substituting bigger words for it.


Ah, but you forget, you can wear it while wearing armor, granting you actually decent AC, as opposed to the monk, which actually was, as you said, piss poor.

Actually, since your AC limited by the max dex bonus of the armor, a monk with optimized wisdom (not that it's good, because those guys are MAD as all get out) has better AC.


funny fallacy is funny.

I am going to ask you to tell me one thing: What fallacy is that?


As was stated before, no, there are not very many copied class features on this guy, considering I had no knowledge of these things before I made the class.

Ignorance of the rules does not mean that you are making something unique, plus, we only have your word to go on, and you seem to believe that proving you didn't know about even the core classes of D&D helps you, so you aren't exactly unbiased.


Never heard of it before now. Q.E.D. your arguement is invalid.

No, it just means you should have read more before making claims of originality. Again, look at the rainbow example: if I were to rename all the colors and say I'd never heard their real names before, am I suddenly a creative genius who discovered something new?


Now, trust me, I don't actually beleive this, it was just the logic I was using to mock your flawed logic, which you were using to assert that these things weren't unique, I apoligize for the rudeness, but, you were asking for it.

That is the strawman fallacy. I advise you to look it up.



Sorry for having a thesaurus in my head, dude.

Using synonyms does not make your work better. Granted, they do teach that early on in school, which is a shame, but bigger is simply not better. You should only use complicated words in writing when a less complicated words do not express your meaning as well.

[Gpope]

Now, the question is, does this class get that conecpt across clearly enough? Also, is this class, well balanced, in your eyes?

You may want to reconsider asking questions like this if you're just going to fly into a rant whenever you get an answer you didn't like.

But just to throw more fuel into the fire: I don't think Actuality is as good as you think it is. The problem is that most ability scores have other important functions that don't get swapped, and most of the time you end up swapping away something useful.

I mean, you've got a class geared towards melee combat in light armor. That means you need both Strength (to-hit, damage) and Dexterity (initiative, AC). If you use Actuality to swap Strength and Dexterity... you still need both Strength (to-hit, AC) and Dexterity (initiative, damage). What's the point? There are a few decent trades, mostly involving Intelligence, but it's an ability that doesn't seem to do much on its own. It's a handy dip for characters in other classes, but even there in a lot of cases it's only marginally useful.

[Fiery Diamond]

Ev'rybody jus' needs ta calm down, now...

In any case, while I see valid points on both sides of the...um...argument, OP-you really should calm down a bit. Please cool it a little on the language. There's a reason I don't often post my work on here - I don't like it when people insult it. If you have the same issue, you shouldn't post stuff much. Saying "critique!" and then getting mad about it is really your own fault, though it is understandable. You also should make sure you know at least the basics of the core classes if you're going to homebrew.

However, Milsk, you have said a few things that I disagree with. For starters, I think the OP has a bit of a point about the "purple prose" - it is not your place (or anyone's on this board, including mine) to insult or even praise his wording for being flowery. While you may not like it, it is completely irrelevant to the questions at hand. If he had asked about his prose, that would be different. Wanting a more concrete physical description is a valid complaint, though. And while I think that he should do a little more research (or at least say up-front "I created this class with only X books in mind, I haven't read/don't like others"), I disagree with your assertion that lack of knowledge invalidates creativity. In other words:



No, it just means you should have read more before making claims of originality. Again, look at the rainbow example: if I were to rename all the colors and say I'd never heard their real names before, am I suddenly a creative genius who discovered something new?

My response? If, in fact, you had truly never learned the names of the colors and weren't just lying, then yes, I would say that you had discovered something new through your creativity. If you were lying, then that wouldn't be the case. If you invent something that has already been invented (without being aware that it had already been invented) then you HAVE invented something. You just don't get to take credit for it, which can stink.

[Milskidasith]

However, Milsk, you have said a few things that I disagree with. For starters, I think the OP has a bit of a point about the "purple prose" - it is not your place (or anyone's on this board, including mine) to insult or even praise his wording for being flowery.

It's valid criticism. There is no point in sparing somebodies feelings. If their fluff is bad, I'll say it's bad, and say why it's bad.


While you may not like it, it is completely irrelevant to the questions at hand.

No, it's not.


If he had asked about his prose, that would be different.

He asked about the class in general, and has stated that the fluff is the main "unique" thing about the class. The first does not exclude the fluff from criticism, and the second explicitly says we should be paying attention to the fluff.


Wanting a more concrete physical description is a valid complaint, though. And while I think that he should do a little more research (or at least say up-front "I created this class with only X books in mind, I haven't read/don't like others"), I disagree with your assertion that lack of knowledge invalidates creativity. In other words:

It does not invalidate creativity. It invalidates uniqueness. This class is not unique, even if he somehow managed to not read the core classes when designing it and made up all the features on his own.



My response? If, in fact, you had truly never learned the names of the colors and weren't just lying, then yes, I would say that you had discovered something new through your creativity. If you were lying, then that wouldn't be the case. If you invent something that has already been invented (without being aware that it had already been invented) then you HAVE invented something. You just don't get to take credit for it, which can stink

You have not discovered or invented anything unique, though. All you have done is do what other people were able to do faster. Sure, you did it, but it really doesn't matter because it's still nothing new that people can use to further their enjoyment.

[Ashtagon]

I was going to respond to the OPs counterpoints, but when I saw he was using swear words with vowels asterisked out, I decided not.

If you want reviews, you have to be prepared for honest criticism. Getting mad is NOT the proper response to constructive criticism honestly intended.

[Fiery Diamond]

It's valid criticism. There is no point in sparing somebodies feelings. If their fluff is bad, I'll say it's bad, and say why it's bad.

Incorrect. Judging another's capability or incapability to use words in an aesthetically pleasing manner is not relevant. Whether it successfully conveys what it is intended to convey is completely unrelated to whether it is good writing or bad writing. What matters in this context is whether or not it is effective at conveying the concept. You saying it is ineffective is valid criticism. You saying it is poor quality writing is not valid criticism.


No, it's not.

The quality of his writing is of absolutely no concern. The effectiveness is. The two are not one and the same, so you shouldn't be confusing them. Saying "well, it is ineffective because it is poor quality" might have some truth to it - but only because of what the writing fails to say, not because of how it says what little it does say. Noting the lack is valid, declaring it to be shoddy writing is not.


He asked about the class in general, and has stated that the fluff is the main "unique" thing about the class. The first does not exclude the fluff from criticism, and the second explicitly says we should be paying attention to the fluff.

As above: we are concerned with the effectiveness of conveying his concept. It may or may not be ineffective, but that has nothing to do with the type of language used; it has to do with what was not said, or possibly (though I don't think it is in this cas) what was said that conveyed something other than the intended concept. In investigating fluff, we are also referring not just to the presentation of the concept, but the concept itself, which, again, has no important relationship to the quality of the OPs writing.


It does not invalidate creativity. It invalidates uniqueness. This class is not unique, even if he somehow managed to not read the core classes when designing it and made up all the features on his own.

Perhaps it is not unique. However, saying "this ability exists elsewhere, stop pretending you made it up" (which is essentially what the criticism about the aberrant reach feat was) is completely uncalled for. If you want to get technical, there really are no truly unique ideas, just individual applications of existing ideas which the applier may or may not have been aware existed. Besides, creativity is not less important than uniqueness by any means. I agree that calling it "a truly unique class" is a bit like calling a particular soda "world's best soda" - it doesn't really mean much of anything.



You have not discovered or invented anything unique, though. All you have done is do what other people were able to do faster. Sure, you did it, but it really doesn't matter because it's still nothing new that people can use to further their enjoyment.

The part I bolded is the part I disagree with. It may not matter to some people, but it may matter to others. Especially when it comes to things like homebrewing - not everyone is familiar with everything in existence. I had never heard of the aberrant reach thing until you mentioned it. In fact, I could just as easily say that the actual feat was what was unimportant because I happened to read the OPs creation first. It doesn't matter who came up with the idea first, but who exposed the idea to a particular individual first.

[sigurd]

Let us not forget that any response is a kindness. If the original poster doesn't see it that way that is a pity. Writing is about being understood. Helping the OP to be more approachable and organized is helping. If you are told your observations are simply wrong or irrelevant don't worry, but don't venture anything further.

I don't think this has to be confrontational, and it certainly doesn't have to be insulting.

[Baron Corm]

Seconding what sigurd said. We've given you honest criticism; that's what this board is for. If you disagree with our suggestions on a fundamental level, then say so and leave it at that.

About your class - I really think it should be a template or monster based on the fluff. A class represents training, while a template might change what something actually is. Or isn't, in this case.

[Rithaniel]

Yeah, I don't have forever to type up three hundred responses right now, have to get up to class, but I'll just say one thing. Sorry about getting angry for response's, I just read posts that seemed aggressive, and responded to them aggressively, that was my bad, though, tbh, it was a little throwing.

As for the cussing, well, I'm more used to a website where the code of conduct is "say what you will, words won't hurt you, just don't decend into ad hominem, that is simply annoying to read", which, honestly, makes sense, but, if you guys think it's bad, I'll try and refrain from using them in the future.

I'll respond to the talk about the class when I return.

[truemane]

First off, the cussing is a board rule. It's got nothing to do with us. And so taking the time and effort to circumvent the word filters just to cuss in a post is going to make you sound more aggressive than you probably mean to sound. Just something to keep in mind.

Secondly, the response to aggressive criticism is the same as the response to gentle criticism: evaluate its validity and move on. If someone tells you you're an idiot for reasons A, B and C, you look at reasons A, B and C and decide if they make any sense. The tone with which they are delivered is not the issue (or, rather, is a separate issue). Responding to aggression with aggression never works. Especially on the internet where things can't be solved by a fistfight.

Third, your writing style is an issue. The way your class is presented is as important as the mechanics that you present. If you don't want the fluff critiqued, then present the class as a series of bullet points and it'll stop being an issue. But the purpose of language is to communicate, not obfuscate, and if your language isn't facilitating communication, it should change.

And so your descriptions are not like 'the parsley on a steak.' They're like the shell on crab legs. The meat is still there and it tastes the same but you make it so hard to get to that by the time I get there I don't want it anymore. You get so lost in your repetitions and circumlocutions that you actually impede the transmission of your ideas. And it takes so much work to read your prose that what you're actually saying gets lost. And that's a detriment to your primary purpose. ESPECIALLY as the class is so unusual. If it were just a guy with a sword and a cool bandana, we could all just handwave the fluff and be done with it.

And lastly, the problem with your fluff is that it lacks context. What IS this thing? How do you become one? Why do you become one? Do they have a history or culture or a point of view or anything like that? If I decide to be one, how do I go about it? What do they even look like? And why?

They shouldn't exist, but they do. And their very presence degrades the fabric of reality around them. And they're SO unreal that the normal rules don't apply to them and stop applying to other people when they're nearby. Sweet. Got it. But that's all you give us. Is there a ritual that makes them? Some sort of chemical or item or curse? Or is it a race of some sort? Or the result of some magical something or other?

And lastly lastly I can't see any reason for them to have full BAB and proficiency in all Martial Weapons. That seems to indicate a lot of time spent training with weapons and combat. And if you go to all the trouble of turning yourself into a blight on the cosmos and walk around twisting reality everywhere you go, why learn to use a longsword? Doesn't fit.

Same with saves. Whatever the process is by which someone becomes (unbecomes?) one of these things, it's got to be a mental process. Just not being crazy while your presence makes other people crazy MUST take a strong brain. But Will is their only weak save? I'd go Will and Fort (strong mind, no real body) as strong saves and leave out the Ref.

[Roderick_BR]

It's an interesting concept, however, it feels more like a race or template than a class.
Just try to imagine a group of human teenager:
Future wizard: "I'm gonna learn magic with this wizard guy, and become an archmage someday"
Future (evil) cleric: "<fools, they don't imagine the doom that'll befall them when my dark lord rule these lands>"
Future rogue: "What, coins? Don't know what you are talking about"
Future paladin: "... and then I've been talking to my master, I'll start my mounted training next week, after the religion classes..."
Future Quasinaugh: "hm... I'll grow up to undo creation, I guess"
Classes are more about things you become by training.

[Demented]

Given all the hitpoint loss for abilities, and the generally defeatist and dramatically somber attitude, does this mean that a Quasinaught slashes his wrists in combat? :smallbiggrin:

[Rithaniel]

Well, Demented, the 'I rag on emo kids' thing kind of is over where I live, so, hey, blast from the past, but no, it's not meant to be negative or "oh I hurt myself", it's meant to be fuking terrible.

Roderick_BR, it's more similar to a sorcerer, which would be like this:
Future Sorcerer: "I like chaning my moms hair color with my mind"
Future Quasinaught: "I can feel things at night... in my mind..."

Alright, truemane, time to give you a few replies:

The placement of my asterisk's was more intended so that my message wouldn't loose any meaning by *************** having several thousand aterisk's between two words, and it'd be a smooth read.

Well, I tend to fight people who tell me I'm wrong, maybe I shouldn't, but it was something I grew up with, difficult to change those bits of your personality, if you ever took a psychology course.

Well, I guess I've just gotten burnt out on the writting of fluff.

I tend to try and have a line of fluff in each ability description, and, sometimes coming up with those lines can be difficult, so I default to a short description of the class. Is there any problem in those lines? Also, I'm bad an eyeballing things myself, I need a person to point to where there is a problem, could you do that now?

Think I can work that in, I just feel that fixing all the problems at once is wiser, so I'm gonna try and get each problem fixed before I make any changes to the article itself.

They are like sorcerer's, they don't do anything to gain their power, they just gain it.

Well, that was more from a balance perspective, though I could probably whip up a rough fluff explination for it.

Well, if you look up earlier in the thread, you'll notice the comment on the pseudoanught, the xenoanught, and the quasinaught. To explain these three classes, the pseudonaught channels the unreal, the quasinaught has their body saturated with the unreal, and the xenoanught has their mind saturated with the unreal. So, no, there is a reason that Will is their worst save, because they haven't undergone enough with their mind.

Baron Corm, that's sorcerer to you.

sigurd, I'm done with my finals (gives big fuzzy hug).

Now, to everyone else talking about mechanics, whose post I read before I went up to class, I'm not belittling you're posts, put I'm gonna ball them up into one, except for two cases: Fiery Diamond and Milskidasith, who I'll respond to in a bit. Right now though, I've been tossing it around it my head, and I think you guys might be right about this being a little weak, but not much. I mean, it's most definantly a good bit above fighter, but, might fall short compared to a cookie cutter fighter, which, btw, use's a lot of things that this class can use as well, meaning that, if you made a quasinaught with that same cookie cutter, you wind up much better off, so, isn't that interesting? Meanwhile, I'm not sure what to add, maybe you'd guys like to offer some suggestions?

As to Milskidasith, stop behaving so high and mighty, it's difficult to like you when you're like that.

To Fiery Diamond, thank you, I can't see why he can't get idea through his head.

All in all, on our website, what with the new idea of 'balance teirs', and some morons spreading the word that 'higher teirs are bad for the game', people have been getting more and more worried about stuff being too strong, which they told me this was when I asked them about it, so, hopefully you can see why I thought it was odd that this class was being called too weak. :smallannoyed:

[Milskidasith]

Roderick_BR, it's more similar to a sorcerer, which would be like this:
Future Sorcerer: "I like chaning my moms hair color with my mind"
Future Quasinaught: "I can feel things at night... in my mind..."

Sorcerer is "inherent magical talent." That's a lot easier to add in to a character than "I'm an abomination that shouldn't and does not exist."


Well, I tend to fight people who tell me I'm wrong, maybe I shouldn't, but it was something I grew up with, difficult to change those bits of your personality, if you ever took a psychology course.

You have to learn to accept criticism.


I tend to try and have a line of fluff in each ability description, and, sometimes coming up with those lines can be difficult, so I default to a short description of the class. Is there any problem in those lines? Also, I'm bad an eyeballing things myself, I need a person to point to where there is a problem, could you do that now?

I have told you, you need to add in actual descriptions instead of substituting different synonyms for the same word over and over. More detail, less flowery words that don't tell me anything.


They are like sorcerer's, they don't do anything to gain their power, they just gain it.

Except, again, having hidden magical talent is a lot easier to fluff as coming up than finding out you're completely unreal.


Well, that was more from a balance perspective, though I could probably whip up a rough fluff explination for it.

This is T5 at best, for balance. I'm not sure if you want it to be at that point, but it's very weak.


Now, to everyone else talking about mechanics, whose post I read before I went up to class, I'm not belittling you're posts, put I'm gonna ball them up into one, except for two cases: Fiery Diamond and Milskidasith, who I'll respond to in a bit. Right now though, I've been tossing it around it my head, and I think you guys might be right about this being a little weak, but not much.

Again, it depends on what you are aiming for. A fighter could probably beat this just because of the tasty bonus feats.


I mean, it's most definantly a good bit above fighter, but, might fall short compared to a cookie cutter fighter, which, btw, use's a lot of things that this class can use as well, meaning that, if you made a quasinaught with that same cookie cutter, you wind up much better off, so, isn't that interesting?

Fighter bonus feats mean that they ubercharge better and earlier than this can. Granted, straight fighter is generally worthless, but many builds need to dip into fighter to get all the feats they require.


Meanwhile, I'm not sure what to add, maybe you'd guys like to offer some suggestions?

You could get rid of the HP damage on your smite. It's not worth it; even if the to-hit bonus is pretty good (which it really isn't, considering it's not that hard to optimize damage output), it's entirely worth taking damage because the next enemy will be able to kill you.


As to Milskidasith, stop behaving so high and mighty, it's difficult to like you when you're like that.

I'm not behaving high and mighty. I am criticizing your class. If you can't take honest criticism, then do not post a class and ask for criticism.


All in all, on our website, what with the new idea of 'balance teirs', and some morons spreading the word that 'higher teirs are bad for the game', people have been getting more and more worried about stuff being too strong, which they told me this was when I asked them about it, so, hopefully you can see why I thought it was odd that this class was being called too weak. :smallannoyed:

No, I cannot understand why you thought this class was worth something. Granted, you haven't even read the core classes of D&D fully, let alone splatbooks, so I don't expect you to have a clue about balance, but this is still incredibly weak. Do you even know what the tier system is, and what classes go where?

[Temotei]

No, I cannot understand why you thought this class was worth something.

Oh, come now...that's unfair. It's worth something to him, and he worked on it for some time, which makes it worth something.


I'm not behaving high and mighty. I am criticizing your class. If you can't take honest criticism, then do not post a class and ask for criticism.

Agreed.

[Rithaniel]

Jesus, Milskidasith, I try and be nice to you, yet you fuking get more high and mighty and insulting, what is your deal?

It's essentially the same thing though, sorcerer is 'inherently magical', quasinaught is 'inherently unreal'. Wow, is that similar or am I seeing things?

Your next two points are you simply repeating yourself, and me, and doing so in a way that makes it seem your telling me something new, so, skipping over that, since you aren't trying to help me on it, and I've already seen it, lol.

Next up, you call it T5, and I'll just point out that this is nowhere near a fuking monk, and if you think it is, then your perception is skewed.

Fighter could not beat this, because they would not be able to hit it, as this class gets 'mental stat to AC' without necessarily getting MAD, so, a reasonably optimized quasinaught would be pretty freaking strong. Bringing up the ubercharger and how early you get it is pointless, as anybody can get bonus feats early on with flaws. Potentially becoming an ubercharger at ecl 1. WHAT? SAY IT ISN'T SO!

A bonus to hit is very good, a smaller bonus, would be negligible, though I've seen people argue that WF is balanced cause it raises damage output by up to 33%, and that +5 to hit, wasn't, much to my repeated facepalms, but, I must say that, getting +26 to hit, is a good freaking bit, and it needs some sort of reins to pull it back, that's where the hp cost comes in.

Well, it's difficult to take critisism when it's sneered down at you from the back of a large horse, you know.

I have read splatbooks, just not all of them, as you obviously went out of your way to take the year to do, but, I did purposefully not read the things that my friends warned me were very weak, and ought not to be considered. I mean, if a guy that you trust tells you that there's a rabid minotaur down a hallway, are you gonna go down there to see if he was telling the truth? Also, as I was told, the teirs go 'Monk, Fighter, Rogue, Psion, Wizard'. If this isn't how they go, then, I guess I may be mistaken. Also, refrain from ad hominem, makes you look stupid when people call you out on it. :smallwink:

[Milskidasith]

Jesus, Milskidasith, I try and be nice to you, yet you fuking get more high and mighty and insulting, what is your deal?

Because we all know ad hominem attacks and ignoring the forum rules are being nice.


It's essentially the same thing though, sorcerer is 'inherently magical', quasinaught is 'inherently unreal'. Wow, is that similar or am I seeing things?

The difference is, saying "my latent magical powers have begun to appear" is a lot easier to refluff than saying "I've suddenly begun to develop into an antibeing that should not be." One is becoming a normal dude with powers, the other is turning into a far realms abomination.


Next up, you call it T5, and I'll just point out that this is nowhere near a fuking monk, and if you think it is, then your perception is skewed.

Err... this is pretty similar to a monk. It gets almost nothing from class features. It's only useful feature is to gain an attack that hurts it and adds some damage and a decent bonus to hit. Monks are on the low end of T5, anyway; this is weaker than a fighter, which is also T5, IIRC. Plus, like monks, this gets a wide variety of abilities with no synergy (save your stat switching and stat bonuses).


Fighter could not beat this, because they would not be able to hit it, as this class gets 'mental stat to AC' without necessarily getting MAD, so, a reasonably optimized quasinaught would be pretty freaking strong. Bringing up the ubercharger and how early you get it is pointless, as anybody can get bonus feats early on with flaws. Potentially becoming an ubercharger at ecl 1. WHAT? SAY IT ISN'T SO!

A mental stat to AC, limited by your max dex bonus of armor, that's a deflection bonus, which all classes can get from a ring anyway. Your deflection bonus to AC is incredibly weak.



A bonus to hit is very good, a smaller bonus, would be negligible, though I've seen people argue that WF is balanced cause it raises damage output by up to 33%, and that +5 to hit, wasn't, much to my repeated facepalms, but, I must say that, getting +26 to hit, is a good freaking bit, and it needs some sort of reins to pull it back, that's where the hp cost comes in.

+26 to hit is useful, sure, but when it's your only class feature that allows you to fight better, cut the class some slack.


Well, it's difficult to take critisism when it's sneered down at you from the back of a large horse, you know.

Honestly, just because I don't like the class doesn't mean I'm being high and mighty. Plenty of people have agreed with them.


I have read splatbooks, just not all of them, as you obviously went out of your way to take the year to do,


No, I didn't. You didn't even know what a paladin was. How am I supposed to expect to believe you know much about D&D?


but, I did purposefully not read the things that my friends warned me were very weak, and ought not to be considered. I mean, if a guy that you trust tells you that there's a rabid minotaur down a hallway, are you gonna go down there to see if he was telling the truth?

Just because they are weak doesn't mean they can't be A: fun to play or B: unreadable.


Also, as I was told, the teirs go 'Monk, Fighter, Rogue, Psion, Wizard'. If this isn't how they go, then, I guess I may be mistaken.

You are.


Also, refrain from ad hominem, makes you look stupid when people call you out on it. :smallwink:

Please quote where I made an ad hominem attack, because I didn't. You, however, have, with calling me high and mighty and ignoring my points for the same reason.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is going to stay closed. I just don't see how it can be continued in a productive (and non-rule violating) manner.