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Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 03:51 PM
My initial train of tought:

So, after ressurecting my DM monster manual, one old issue I had with D&D came out again.

Templates for PCs.

There's plenty of cool templates for PCs out there, but they force you to lose precious HDs that leave your defenses and HP low, resulting in squishy characters. Also a good chunk of the template abilities don't level up.

LA buyoff kinda fixed that, but one still feels like he's giving away levels. Almost like dead levels.
...

Wait, did I just say dead levels? But aren't those the class levels that don't give special abilities?

Templates sacrifice HD for special abilities...

Dead levels sacrifice special abilities for HD...

Both are considered weak...

Match made in heaven?


My conclusion:
Whenever a character would take a dead level on a class, they may take a template of +1 LA for free. If they later take another dead level, they may either get another +1 LA template or lose any old templates they have in order to get a template of LA+X, where X is the total LA of the lost templates plus 1. They may also do the reverse, sacfifice one high LA template to gain several minor templates.

The idea is to allow players to get templates more easily whitout losing HD or gaining something for nothing.

Fluffwise, templates can be explained by the awakening of latent abilities a la sorceror, metamorphosis due to the adventures or just really badass characters.

A quick example, using a character with plenty of dead levels, Fighter Mc Fighter:

For the first two levels Fighter Mc Fighter works as pretty much everybody else.

At 3rd level, fighter Mc Fighter gained a "dead level". Besides extra HP, BAB, skills and saves, he gained nothing. So he gets a free +1 template of his choice. Mc Fighter picks up mineral warrior(+2). He now has +3 nat armor, extra str and con, DR 8/adamantine and a burrow speed. He gets a litle dumber, but realy doesn't care much about it for now. The transformation is explained by Mc Fighter pimping out his armor and learning how to dig really quickly.

Wizard learned how to cast glitterdust, pyrotecniques and invisibility

At 5th level, Fighter Mc Fighter hears his wizard friend will start buffing people with fly, so he ditches out the mineral warrior template(+1) and gets phrenic creature(+2). He gets a bunch of defensive psi like abilities, better mental stats (wich will allow him to qualify for certain feats at 6th level), and a couple ranged attacks plus limited self healing. Described as leaving his old brutish ways and dedicating himself to training his mind and body at the same time.

Wizard is casting fly, sugestion and solid fog.

At 7th level, Fighter Mc fighter is tired of his psi like abilities, so he ditches phrenic template(+2) and picks up half iron golem (+3). He gets a massive str and nat armor boost, wich allows him to actualy mop the floor with a codzila in melee combat, a breath attack as a free action and golem magic immunity. Sure the wizard can still snipe him with orbs, but at least he's safe from being charmed, scried and other nastry tricks. Translated as building a pimped out iron arm a la Gats from Berseker. His mental stats worsen, but he picked the feats he wanted from that at 6th level.

Wizard is casting polymorph, black tentacles and god knows what else.

At 9th level, Fighter Mc Fighter picks up lolth touched (+1) to gain extra con and str plus fear immunity, and a bonus on hide and move silently.

Wizard is casting teleport, nuff said.


So jump all the way to 20th level. We went trough 9 dead levels so we have 9 LA worth to spend.

Fighter Mc Fighter, fighter lv20 half iron golem(+3)/phrenic creature(+2)/half-minotaur(+1)/half dragon(+3).

Bonus from the templates/dead levels:
+24 Str, -2 Dex, +8 Con, -2 int, -2 wis
+17 nat armor bonus
Large size (took in acount that half-minotaur doesn't give stat bonus just for increasing size)
Fly(average) speed of twice the land speed
DR 25/magic
Darkvision 60 feet.
+2 racial to fortitude saves.
Iron golem magic immunity.
Full phrenic psi like abilities, including psi teleport and the mighty fission.
Rust vulnerability.
Dragon traits, immunity to one element, draconic breath.
Two claws, one gore, one slam and one bite attack per turn, plus weapon.
1/round as a free action 10 foot cone of poisonous save-or-slowly die gas with DC 20+ con modifier.

Plus some minor random abilities that aren't much likely to ever matter, like a +4 int bonus against maze spells.

(For sanity's sake, the above character could be described as a really muscled draconic dude with really tick armor and several exotic weapons built on on it.)


And that's before adding any items at all! Sure, it still isn't a batman wizard, but it's a mighty melee monster, highly resistant to magic and physical attacks, able to fly on his own, with a save or die attack. I may never play a regular fighter 20, but I would surely play this Fighter Mc Fighter.

But what's your opinion? Great idea for filling dead levels and giving out templates, or I'm just too drunk?

Note:fullcasters never have dead levels. They're always learning new spells

Extra-Almost dead levels:Some classes have levels that aren't technicaly dead, but may as well be. For example, ranger 3 and 7. You really want endurance? Or swift tracker? Or the rogue levels were you just gain trap sense+1? Your monk really needs more slow fall? I think not.

So, a character taking a nonfulcaster level may sacrifice his class abilities for that level in return for an extra +1 LA in templates. Characters may only do this every three levels of a class, and diferent classes don't stack, up to +6 LA from "almost dead levels" at 20th level. So no taking barbarian 20 sacrificing all nonrage levels for +13 LA with a 12HD and 4 skill points per level, for example. Idea by Scyfling.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-02, 04:03 PM
After lightly skimming what you wrote, I reached the conclusion that... it doesn't make very much sense from a role-playing standpoint (I continued training as a fighter, so I sprouted wings suddenly, after mysteriously losing my goliath-ness). Furthermore, it'll make things kind of confusing, just in general. IMO, anyway.

Ormagoden
2009-12-02, 04:11 PM
Punch Out Maverick! Punch Out!!!!

Kylarra
2009-12-02, 04:12 PM
I think it's a novel idea, but maybe not on a 1:1 basis. Maybe every 2 dead levels gets you a free +1 LA template or a partial progression of bonuses per savage species and similar breakdowns.

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 04:15 PM
I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well maybe they could take an inherited one with their first chosen template and argue that the inherited qualities only began to emerge as they got older. Sort of like bloodline levels that way. But once you get past a certain point it doesn't make much sense to say "oh by the way, Mommy was a succubus so I have all these evil powers and cool black wings now."

Also, what would you do about monk or soulknife? They don't technically have dead levels since they get new class features at each level, just that those class features almost all suck.

grautry
2009-12-02, 04:21 PM
After lightly skimming what you wrote, I reached the conclusion that... it doesn't make very much sense from a role-playing standpoint (I continued training as a fighter, so I sprouted wings suddenly, after mysteriously losing my goliath-ness).

I agree that the loosing templates part might be shaky from a RP standpoint but the rest? No way. It would be no harder to justify this than, say, having a couple of dips or prestige classes.

IMO this is a pretty damn cool idea. It accomplishes two things: one, it alleviates boredom(so, new level, my character.... gets a +1 in a couple of things, whoope) and it might improve game balance(though some classes - like the god-awful CW Samurai actually don't have that many dead levels, so the improvement might be limited to a few specific classes), but I'd have to think it over more thoroughly to be sure.

Though I'm actually wondering if you wouldn't end up in a situation where Warrior would be more powerful than a Fighter(20 levels of templates vs. 9 levels of templates plus 11 feats). Anyone more familiar with melee-fu than me feel like statting up a Warrior with 20 levels of free templates?


I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well, think of the rituals in Savage Species - like the ones that allow for you to change your race permanently. I figure that adding inherited templates onto someone shouldn't be that hard to justify(magical experimentation comes to mind).

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-02, 04:32 PM
THAT IS AWSOME!

but it makes so little sense in most games that the people i play with would bitch, but a high magic game it could be passable (magical corruption or what ever causes you to mutate). Hell just rename Fighter as Mutant Warrior or some such in all the games you implament this in and no one can ever bother you other than saying it's way stronger than the regular fighter :)

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 04:33 PM
drengnikrafe and

I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well maybe they could take an inherited one with their first chosen template and argue that the inherited qualities only began to emerge as they got older. Sort of like bloodline levels that way. But once you get past a certain point it doesn't make much sense to say "oh by the way, Mommy was a succubus so I have all these evil powers and cool black wings now."

Like I pointed out and grautry suports, you can change the template fluff. Your mummy wasn't a succubus. You gained evil powers and cool black wings because:
1-You ate a succubus heart.
2-Made a dark pact for power.
3-Asmodeus likes your deeds and blessed you with infernal power.
4-You drank a potion whitout identifying it.
5-You stood too long at the cursed cave of evil.
6-You went under some super special training.
7-Wizards learn how to rape reality. Why the hell can't you learn how to grow some wings?
8-A wizard did it.

But meh, it's not like I'm enforcing this on anyone. If you want to fill dead levels in your campaign, feel free to tell your players that they can pick up free LA, but only one inherited template. Swaping was for extra versatility (a sorceror also changes his spells known after all), but you can remove it if you dislike it.

Or as swindly pointed out rename the fighter as "mutant warrior" or "aspiring champion of chaos"!:smallsmile:



Also, what would you do about monk or soulknife? They don't technically have dead levels since they get new class features at each level, just that those class features almost all suck.
BURN IN HELL MUAHAHAHA-I mean, honestly I really don't care much about those two classes. Guess that one should just let the DM sort it out, but I would say at least +10 free LA, every two levels starting at 2.

grautry:This was designed for PC classes only! Take warrior 20 at your own risk!

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-02, 04:35 PM
Maybe this could work with some sort of path system?

Or maybe instead of gaining a template characters can choose from a list of special abilities ranging from strange but plausible (extra strength, larger size) to weird and magical abilities (buffs x/day, ability to charge his weapon, those sword beams from zelda) to the downright insane (changing race, sacrificing past abilities to become a half celestial/fiend, gaining the ability to shapechange).

I like the second idea. Say that for my 3rd and 5th levels of fighter I gain the supernatural ability to disrupt undead with my bare hands (because the chief villain is a necromancer or something), and the spell like ability to cast bull's strength 2/day. Then when I hit 7th level I lose my other abilities and transcend to become a half-celestial. then at 9th level I regain the ability to disrupt undead, and at 11th level I gain the ability to use 1st level paladin spells as spell like abilities 1/day/3 fighter levels. Then at 13th level I upgrade my last ability into proper paladin casting. at 15th level I decide to gain the ability to rage as a barbarian 1/day per five character levels. at 17th level I get smite evil, and at 19th level I get the ability to cast bull's strength 2/day.

So I end as a half celestial fighter able to smite good and cast spells as a paladin, disrupt undead with my bare hands, buff myself twice per day, and rage like a barbarian. A decent set of abilities that lead to a well rounded combatant. He will never be a paladin or a ranger, but he can get a smattering of abilities from all combat classes.

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 04:38 PM
Anonymouswizard:feel free to design and balance that path system if you have the time and patience. I don't. That's why I picked up templates, since they're ready-to-use packages of special abilities reasonably balanced.

It wasn't a matter of creating something new, but giving an use to two underused things.

Satyr
2009-12-02, 04:40 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to create a few pickable goodies for the dead levels which are a bit more in tone with the class abilities and style? As spellcasters don't get any dead levels, this is only relevant for mundane classes, and you will easily find about 30 or so cool and helpful filler abilities for the mundanes anyway. Even if it is something unspectacular as a bonus feat or a +1 to one ability or save of your choice, but you can easily include stuff like Pounce, Sneak Attack for Non-Rogues or a spell-like abilities to fill in the gaps.

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 04:44 PM
I want to have an use for all the templates in the books we bought damnit!:smalltongue:

Dacia Brabant
2009-12-02, 05:36 PM
Like I pointed out and grautry suports, you can change the template fluff.

True, everything can always be refluffed. And I wasn't trying to dump on your idea, it just might get a little messy is all tacking all those physical changes onto the base creature, as template stacking often leads to silliness. But I guess that's really for the DM and player to sort out.

Looking at the other core base classes, Fighter is really the only one who'd benefit from this. Paladin's dead levels still get a spell level or spell known at least half the time, Ranger doesn't have any dead levels until 12, Rogue not until 14 and Barb and the aforementioned Monk not at all (though really, is Trap Sense +1 a class feature? Really?). Maybe a system of trading (non-spellcasting) class features for LA might be needed?

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 05:47 PM
Looking at the other core base classes, Fighter is really the only one who'd benefit from this. Paladin's dead levels still get a spell level or spell known at least half the time, Ranger doesn't have any dead levels until 12, Rogue not until 14 and Barb and the aforementioned Monk not at all (though really, is Trap Sense +1 a class feature? Really?). Maybe a system of trading (non-spellcasting) class features for LA might be needed?

Hey, that sounds like a great (and simple) idea! Who cares for +1 against traps! Pick up something really worthwhile for a rogue, like Vecna Blooded!

Consider it added to the 1st post!

Nero24200
2009-12-02, 05:53 PM
I think it might be a nice idea, but not from a RP or fluff perspective. I think it would work best if, rather than using existing templates, made custom-made ones specifically for this idea.

Pyro_Azer
2009-12-02, 05:55 PM
This is a good idea as long as you watchwhat your players take because there are some powerful +1 templates out there:

Feral, Vecna Blooded, Lolth touched and mineral warrior just to name a few.

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 06:01 PM
This is a good idea as long as you watchwhat your players take because there are some powerful +1 templates out there:

Feral, Vecna Blooded, Lolth touched and mineral warrior just to name a few.

In a high power game, that's precisely the kind of stuff I would expect the players to take. Let the barbarian go feral(notice it only works for racial HD)! The rogue has the right to sneak under the wizard's divinations! Let the dwarven fighter dig his way under the earth and be really as tough as stone!

Nero24200:If you have the time and patience, sure, but that could be said of pretty much everything on the game, from classes to items.

aje8
2009-12-02, 07:02 PM
Problem with this idea, IMO, is dead levels do NOT make a weak class by definition. i.e. It doesn't improve all the PCs by the same amount. In fact, it randomly hurts and helps different PCs with little rhyme or reason to who this gives bonuses too(i.e. it doesn't neccasarrily strengthen the weak and not the strong). Also, you realize how powerful this it right? Your essentially saying, at random points, certain characters get a FREE level. That...... seems problematic balance wise. Not going-to-unseat-the-Wizard problematic, but still not overly successful on the whol.e

Nada Rakshasa
2009-12-02, 07:15 PM
I suppose these might be less spectacular, but Wizards did release a couple of articles that tried to fill the gaps left by "dead levels" for most of the base classes. I guess it's not quite on-topic, and I doubt that anyone would choose a minor ability over a template, but it's just another option, really.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

Oslecamo
2009-12-02, 07:20 PM
Problem with this idea, IMO, is dead levels do NOT make a weak class by definition. i.e. It doesn't improve all the PCs by the same amount. In fact, it randomly hurts and helps different PCs with little rhyme or reason to who this gives bonuses too(i.e. it doesn't neccasarrily strengthen the weak and not the strong).

Could you, hmm, be a litle more specific? Fullcasters get nothing. ToB dudes may take it with the "almost dead level" rule, but it will cripple their maneuver and IL development. Fighter benefits more. Barbarian, rogue and ranger also get plenty of goodies.

Also if you could point out a strong class with dead levels, because I really can't really remember any now. Sorcerors aren't wizards, but they still learn new spells every level. Clerics increase their CL and turn undead and get more spells per day even when not gaining necessarily new spells known.



Also, you realize how powerful this it right? Your essentially saying, at random points, certain characters get a FREE level. That...... seems problematic balance wise. Not going-to-unseat-the-Wizard problematic, but still not overly successful on the whol.e

But many people consider LA somewhat weak. The special abilities and extra stats are great, but losing HD really hurts, specialy because of the several effects that care about your number of HD. Take too much LA and you'll find yourself easy picking for cloudkill, the alignment words and other similar spells. With my way you get a real level: HD+special abilities.

For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.

aje8
2009-12-02, 08:40 PM
Could you, hmm, be a litle more specific? Fullcasters get nothing. ToB dudes may take it with the "almost dead level" rule, but it will cripple their maneuver and IL development. Fighter benefits more. Barbarian, rogue and ranger also get plenty of goodies.

Also if you could point out a strong class with dead levels, because I really can't really remember any now. Sorcerors aren't wizards, but they still learn new spells every level. Clerics increase their CL and turn undead and get more spells per day even when not gaining necessarily new spells known.
Doesn't help Monks, Soulknifes or Warlocks even those classes are all tier 4 or below. Helps Fighters ALOT but doesn't help rangers nearly as much cause they a get a spell progression later. See what I mean about casuing some weird balance things to happen?

You're right that it doesn't help top tier characters, but I don't like the inconsistent buffs/nerfs to the other classes.


For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.
Well, I don't know about your OP Fighter, but I KNOW I can build an optimizted Fighter using this that's at least on par with these guys.

Look, let me put this simply: Alot of people really dislike LA, but if you know what you're doing, it's actually quite good for Non-ToB martial characters. I've had a Feral Half-Ogre character keep up for as long as the game lasted in a party with a GOD style Wizard and an optimized Psion. Seriously, if you're taking any combination of Feral, Half-Minatour, Mineral Warrior, Half Ogre (or wait, is that a race?), Phenric and, for some builds, Shadow, your template is worth it's LA and thus makes an excellent level when combined with bab, saves and hp. Espically as Feral already gives you hp and a con bonus.

Gnaeus
2009-12-02, 09:26 PM
For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.

Honestly, ToB isn't really much stronger from a damage standpoint than Fighter. A well built fighter can be competitive in damage per round (barring a few broken points like White Raven Tactic loops). Where ToB crushes the fighter is in having options for stuff to do if full attack doesn't work for some reason. Like you have to move. Or the target has uber DR. Or is standing on the other side of a 30 foot chasm.

The fighter you listed at start would be much better than most anything in ToB, and he isn't particularly optimized. Fighter 19, any ToB class 1 would still get 9 levels of broken template and wash it down with a couple of nice maneuvers and stances picked with fighter feats.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-02, 09:49 PM
Look, let me put this simply: Alot of people really dislike LA, but if you know what you're doing, it's actually quite good for Non-ToB martial characters. I've had a Feral Half-Ogre character keep up for as long as the game lasted in a party with a GOD style Wizard and an optimized Psion. Seriously, if you're taking any combination of Feral, Half-Minatour, Mineral Warrior, Half Ogre (or wait, is that a race?), Phenric and, for some builds, Shadow, your template is worth it's LA and thus makes an excellent level when combined with bab, saves and hp. Espically as Feral already gives you hp and a con bonus.

Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Mineral Warrior (if done in an optimized fashion) are all stupidly broken. No good DM allows them. Quite literally, they are all under LA by 3 or 4 levels.

Half-Ogre is a race.

Phenric... I don't really remember.

Shadow is terrible, unless you are planning Telflammar Shadowlord abuse.

ocdscale
2009-12-02, 10:14 PM
Guess that one should just let the DM sort it out, but I would say at least +10 free LA, every two levels starting at 2.

I like this idea you proposed to deal with the Monk/Soulknife problem over using a straight dead level -> template solution.

+X based on what tier the class is at. Distribute it as evenly as you can over the 20 levels.

aje8
2009-12-02, 10:29 PM
Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Mineral Warrior (if done in an optimized fashion) are all stupidly broken. No good DM allows them. Quite literally, they are all under LA by 3 or 4 levels.

That's simply false. Optimized? Yes. Broken? No. Why? Basically because of the general rule: Overpowered for thr fighter is weak for the Wizard.

Build your super-optimized Feral Half-Minataur Fighter with a million splatbooks. My CORE Wizard 20 will be better for the majority of the game(At least better at levels 7+. levels 5-7 close.). Seriously, making the Fighter able to hit really hard gives him something to do. The Wizard does everyhting else better, so why begrudge the Fighter his hitting really frickin hard thing?

Anyway on topic:

Honestly, ToB isn't really much stronger from a damage standpoint than Fighter. A well built fighter can be competitive in damage per round (barring a few broken points like White Raven Tactic loops). Where ToB crushes the fighter is in having options for stuff to do if full attack doesn't work for some reason. Like you have to move. Or the target has uber DR. Or is standing on the other side of a 30 foot chasm.
I think ToB is actually substantially weaker from a pure damage standpoint as compared to an optimized Fighter. The Fighter gets many feats to take leap attack, spirited charge, shock trooper, power attack. He's going to be able to Uber-Charge better than a ToB class, espically at the lower levels.

But with the Free templates, Fighter becomes a high hp, fast healing, pouncing, ridiculously high str uber-charging tanking machine. That's why I think he's probably on par with or better than ToB.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-03, 12:51 AM
That's simply false. Optimized? Yes. Broken? No. Why? Basically because of the general rule: Overpowered for thr fighter is weak for the Wizard.

Build your super-optimized Feral Half-Minataur Fighter with a million splatbooks. My CORE Wizard 20 will be better for the majority of the game(At least better at levels 7+. levels 5-7 close.). Seriously, making the Fighter able to hit really hard gives him something to do. The Wizard does everyhting else better, so why begrudge the Fighter his hitting really frickin hard thing?

If you seriously don't think the Half Minotaur Template is broken... I don't think we can have a conversation.

Of course an Arcane Caster will be better. Arcane Casting, optimized, is also ridicoulously broken. No one disputes this. Vancian Casting is a bad system, which WoTC made worse.

Saying "it isn't as broken as the most broken things in existence" isn't an argument. A way better measure is a T3 Class. Is a Feral Half Minotaur Fighter better then a Warblade? GOOD GOD YES. There is no comparison.

Oslecamo
2009-12-03, 04:48 AM
If you seriously don't think the Half Minotaur Template is broken... I don't think we can have a conversation.


Just to point out that the half minotaur template does not give stat bonuses just for increasing your size. This only happens for monsters advancing HD. What you gain from increasing size is bigger reach, -1 to AC and attacks, -4 to hide, +4 to grapple.

Then add +4 str, +2 con, -2 int gore attack, maze resistance and darkvision.

It's strong for a +1 LA template, yes, but surely not broken.



Saying "it isn't as broken as the most broken things in existence" isn't an argument. A way better measure is a T3 Class. Is a Feral Half Minotaur Fighter better then a Warblade? GOOD GOD YES. There is no comparison.


Is it really? Remember that feral only checks for your racial HD, not class level HDs. And there's some crazy maneuver combos out there. And the warblade can probably afford to sacrifice 18th and 19th level for a couple of templates himself, since he really only needs one 9th level maneuver, time stands still.

Of course, now I would need some optimized 20 level builds and duel threads to sort this out. I would be willing to build the fighters/monks/soulknives. Somebody else would build the ToB dudes/Codzilas that only melee. Anyone up for the challenge?:smallbiggrin:

And if the fighter has indeed become T2, well, what can I say? I would be proud if one of my homebrews was deemed worthy of being used on an high powered campaign!

Like pointed out, if the fighter must be a one trick pony, at least let him be a one trick dire red dragon.

aje8:In case you didn't notice, other of the objectives of this idea is to allow people to more easily acess LA. For example if you're medium level, normal LA doesn't hurt that much, but if you're starting low level, LA can be crippling(starting with just 1HD) or simply impossible(not enough levels!).

hamishspence
2009-12-03, 05:05 AM
Is it really? Remember that feral only checks for your racial HD, not class level HDs.

Does it actually say that?

I seem to recall a lot of NPC templates, with powers that scale up with increasing Hit Dice, using all hit dice to determine the strength of the powers.

For example, the 20th level Dread Necromancer Unholy Scion in Cityscape, has all the powers of a 20 HD Unholy Scion- as I recall.

Is feral an exception to this?

UglyPanda
2009-12-03, 07:03 AM
What could somebody do with 20 dead levels? From something like Warrior or Expert?

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-03, 07:22 AM
I would suggest listing all the templates and picking out specific ones as available to specific classes at specific levels.

Give them a CHOICE, but make it a more limited one.

"Okay, you're a seventh level fighter so now you can choose between Vampire, Ork-Bluded, and Half-Golem" (NOTE: THESE ARE JUST THE FIRST THINGS THAT CAME TO MIND AND MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST IN A STATE OF BALANCE/EXIST AT ALL)

Rather than

"Okay, pick any LA 2 template!"

Not only does it make for slightly better balance, but players will like it. Many players hate being overwhelmed with 900 choices and no idea which ones are good and which ones are not.

Eldariel
2009-12-03, 07:26 AM
I think you'd be better off just allowing character to take racial HD to earn a template; that way the option is available to everyone.


I use a variety of means of reducing LA (starting with re-evaluating template and applying a more rational LA), including:
- LA buyoff: Pretty normal, very functional
- Instead of LA, you can reduce your point buy by certain amount; much like in E6 rules (this has to be carefully observed as I tend to use rather high PBs and as such, a two-stat character can afford templates without losing anything)
- Instead of LA, you can just take levels as normal, but have a set -X penalty to just about everything (including CL, save DCs and bonus spell modifier, though it's worthwhile to cut 1st level characters a slack CL-wise) where X is equivalent to your LA


Together, these make most races playable. Rebuilding the race to give it lower LA is of course doable too; few people want to play races just 'cause they have immense bonuses to stats (but all high LA races do) so just cutting the stats lower while leaving the awesome in there means cutting a couple of points of LA out.

The racial HD is frankly the bigger problem though 'cause it basically means you can't make an effective caster of that race. Fixing caster multiclassing would sorta fix this too, but I simply try to rebuild all PC races without HD. Tons of racial HD is the worst thing ever.

Cyclocone
2009-12-03, 07:33 AM
What could somebody do with 20 dead levels? From something like Warrior or Expert?

Evolved x12 Persuasive Psychic Swarmform Vampire? Wouldn't even be that bad really.
I'd play it over a Fighter anyway.

Oslecamo
2009-12-03, 07:36 AM
Does it actually say that?

I seem to recall a lot of NPC templates, with powers that scale up with increasing Hit Dice, using all hit dice to determine the strength of the powers.

For example, the 20th level Dread Necromancer Unholy Scion in Cityscape, has all the powers of a 20 HD Unholy Scion- as I recall.

Is feral an exception to this?

Yes it is an exception. It says "It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to it's monster hit dices". A later errata fully clarified the point, and well, I think we all agree that interpretation is a lot more balanced.

UglyPanda: As I already said, this was designed for PC classes only. Apply it to NPC classes at your own risk.

shadow_archmagi:I can understand people being overwhelmed by choices, but hey, doesn't that happen as well with everything else? There's hundreds of feats, spells and prcs out there for people to take after all!

And like spells, feats and classes themselves, what is ok and what isn't is up to the DM running the campaign. A lot of people will play with just a couple of splatbooks(resulting in few templates available), and other people may play with lots of splatbooks but will ban certain options/combos as too strong, depending on the power level they like. It's more a matter of personal taste and player optimization-fu.

So feel free to make a list all templates and then pointing out wich ones you think should be available at each dead level, but I, as someone who allows pretty much anything on my campaigns, won't be doing it myself, as it goes against my personal play style.

Eldariel:Great idea! I would just need to personaly change every template out there, give casters even more POWARH, rebalance PB, rewrite multiclassing rules, find the cure for cancer, discovering warp travel and sign galactic peace!

Hmm, maybe later. We're talking dead levels and templates here. Races, racial HD and the base rules will have to wait.

MickJay
2009-12-03, 08:03 AM
Aren't dead levels, basically, a way of indicating that you're getting more experienced but, while you're making progress, it's still not enough to get a significant boost in power? Take full casters, they get a major "upgrade" every two levels, but that's a class feature, if you want to play that class, you take good levels with the bad.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-03, 08:07 AM
Aren't dead levels, basically, a way of indicating that you're getting more experienced but, while you're making progress, it's still not enough to get a significant boost in power? Take full casters, they get a major "upgrade" every two levels, but that's a class feature, if you want to play that class, you take good levels with the bad.


I never really saw dead levels as being distinctly different from non-dead levels, but just as ones that didn't happen to include a special bonus because there were only nine nifty things for rogues to get and none of them occur on level four

UglyPanda
2009-12-03, 09:28 AM
As I already said, this was designed for PC classes only. Apply it to NPC classes at your own risk.Wasn't planning to use this idea at all, on anything. The thought of an all-powerful fire-breathing Commoner just amused me.

aje8
2009-12-03, 09:07 PM
If you seriously don't think the Half Minotaur Template is broken... I don't think we can have a conversation.

Of course an Arcane Caster will be better. Arcane Casting, optimized, is also ridicoulously broken. No one disputes this. Vancian Casting is a bad system, which WoTC made worse.

Saying "it isn't as broken as the most broken things in existence" isn't an argument. A way better measure is a T3 Class. Is a Feral Half Minotaur Fighter better then a Warblade? GOOD GOD YES. There is no comparison.

Look, Half-Minataur is obviously great for it's LA. However, it IS relevant that isn't nearly as good as a caster, because it means that, unless you're actually banning all tier 1 and 2 casters in your game, YOU'RE ALREADY USING STUFF BETTER THAN IT. If you ban all tier 1 and 2 casters, in your game, then it's something to conisder banning, but even then. Million templates Fighter is still probably, though not definatley, worse than Warblade 20. The Fighter needs alot to still be relevant at the higher levels and he has little utility. The Warblade has WAY more utility and can do multiple jobs, even if no specific thing he does is stronger than the Fighters one shtick(I HIT REALLY HARD!).

What might be neccasary in a no tier 1/2 classes game is restircting Half-Minatour and Feral to non-Warblades.

This sounds suspicously like Fighters can't have nice things philosophy.

case you didn't notice, other of the objectives of this idea is to allow people to more easily acess LA. For example if you're medium level, normal LA doesn't hurt that much, but if you're starting low level, LA can be crippling(starting with just 1HD) or simply impossible(not enough levels!).


Meh..... I've seen one hit die Feral characters suceed. Though they do have ALOT of weaknesses.

@Eladriel: Actually, those are some cool and easy to implement ideas, which is a pretty sweet LA fix.

Draxar
2009-12-03, 10:12 PM
I never really saw dead levels as being distinctly different from non-dead levels, but just as ones that didn't happen to include a special bonus because there were only nine nifty things for rogues to get and none of them occur on level four

When there's a clear progression it's not too bad. When it's just barren it's rather more annoying – I spent quite a while looking for alternative ways to get the Pale Master's ability to animate dead for free, without taking the PM's 1st level dead level. The solution I ended up going still costs me a caster level, but I get some other stuff for that level.

ocdscale
2009-12-03, 10:20 PM
When there's a clear progression it's not too bad. When it's just barren it's rather more annoying – I spent quite a while looking for alternative ways to get the Pale Master's ability to animate dead for free, without taking the PM's 1st level dead level. The solution I ended up going still costs me a caster level, but I get some other stuff for that level.

This seems much more like a balance decision than just arbitrary barrenness.

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 03:56 AM
Million templates Fighter is still probably, though not definatley, worse than Warblade 20. The Fighter needs alot to still be relevant at the higher levels and he has little utility. The Warblade has WAY more utility and can do multiple jobs, even if no specific thing he does is stronger than the Fighters one shtick(I HIT REALLY HARD!).

Now, good sir, I must disagree. There's plenty of templates out there that offer good utility, in particular the ones wich grants spell/spi-like abilities, like phrenic. Nonmagical high speed flight alone greatly increases a fighter's versatility.



@Eladriel: Actually, those are some cool and easy to implement ideas, which is a pretty sweet LA fix.
Meh, I don't see anything easy on redoing templates from scratch and then still have to calculate how much they are worth in terms of points and/or random penalties that seem suspiciously caster friendly (-1 to spell DC and CL is laughably easy to bypass as long as you're still geting high level spells), but maybe that's just me.

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 06:08 AM
Meh, I don't see anything easy on redoing templates from scratch and then still have to calculate how much they are worth in terms of points and/or random penalties that seem suspiciously caster friendly (-1 to spell DC and CL is laughably easy to bypass as long as you're still geting high level spells), but maybe that's just me.

1) See, the thing is, punishing casters for taking templates doesn't actually accomplish anything except make casters not take templates. I don't think that's really any good. Fixing casters doesn't begin or end with templates; template LA and casters are two unrelated problems and should be addressed separately. I understood you're fixing template LA, not trying to fix every problem in D&D by applying templates everywhere.

2a) -1 CL is surprisingly big, especially if you treat it as HD cap and don't allow Practiced Spellcaster to bypass it. Spell durations and the ability to cast certain spells are tied to CL. -1 DC matches what LA bestows most of the time save DC-wise. But you're right, this doesn't punish casters all that much; that's the whole idea. Everyone, regardless of class, should have the option of picking up templates.

2b) As it were, I don't like the idea that every melee type would have to pick up templates to be good. I don't know about you, but to me it's rather important that a simple Human/Elf/Dwarf warrior is capable of all these epic feats; a mundane person of mundane origin doing epic stuff is pretty much what heroic fantasy means to me.

As such, I don't like the idea of using them as a "fix for melee", but rather an added option for those interested in playing exotic races. Ideally, a Human Warrior and a Feral Human Warrior would both have advantages and disadvantages that pretty much cancel each other out; same with Human Warrior and Minotaur Warrior.

3) I only suggested reworking the LA as an additional option; fact is that LA is pretty high for most templates meaning no fair fixes you apply to LA will make them usable without making fairly LAd templates overpowered. Something like Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend just isn't gonna be competitive with Feral, Mineral Warrior, Dark and company due to the high LA.

The only rational fix for this is to adjust the inter-template power differences so they're ranked on the same scale; any sweeping change to all templates will leave the difference untouched and either make one too good or leave the other too weak.

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 08:42 AM
1) See, the thing is, punishing casters for taking templates doesn't actually accomplish anything except make casters not take templates. I don't think that's really any good. Fixing casters doesn't begin or end with templates; template LA and casters are two unrelated problems and should be addressed separately.
It's my philosophy that casters are already pretty good with just their spells, so giving them anything else on top of the spells should be handled with a 11 foot stick. Ever saw a shadow sorceror with reduced LA combining all his defensive buffs with permanent nonmagic concealment? Not pretty.



2a) -1 CL is surprisingly big, especially if you treat it as HD cap and don't allow Practiced Spellcaster to bypass it. Spell durations and the ability to cast certain spells are tied to CL. -1 DC matches what LA bestows most of the time save DC-wise. But you're right, this doesn't punish casters all that much; that's the whole idea. Everyone, regardless of class, should have the option of picking up templates.

But it punishes noncasters! If you're a melee dude, you need to hit people with a pointy stick, so there's no way around the -X



2b) As it were, I don't like the idea that every melee type would have to pick up templates to be good. I don't know about you, but to me it's rather important that a simple Human/Elf/Dwarf warrior is capable of all these epic feats; a mundane person of mundane origin doing epic stuff is pretty much what heroic fantasy means to me.

Refluffing, reflufing, and some more reflufing on top of it. You're not a mineral warrior. You're a really tough dwarf. You're not a prenic creature. You're an elf with lighting reflexes. Ect ect. If the freaking warblade is dispeling any and every effects on himself and throwing tarrasques in the air, and the crusader is making his allies move twice as fast as before, sorry, but they're surely not "simple" anymore.

(And hey, last time I checked most heroic fantasy is around prince something of the super awesome family who has descended/blessed by super race X doing epic stuff, not Joe farmer sudenly deciding to go slay dragons with his bare hands. In the best of cases, Joe farmer will go dragon hunting after finding the super sword of dragon slaying by chance)



As such, I don't like the idea of using them as a "fix for melee", but rather an added option for those interested in playing exotic races. Ideally, a Human Warrior and a Feral Human Warrior would both have advantages and disadvantages that pretty much cancel each other out; same with Human Warrior and Minotaur Warrior.

People tried that. We ended up with a book who gives disguised SLAs to warriors, and for some reason half of the people out there call them "mundane". So heck, why can't I claim that my minotaur warrior is just a realy big human? Don't those also apear in heroic fantasy left and right?



3) I only suggested reworking the LA as an additional option; fact is that LA is pretty high for most templates meaning no fair fixes you apply to LA will make them usable without making fairly LAd templates overpowered. Something like Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend just isn't gonna be competitive with Feral, Mineral Warrior, Dark and company due to the high LA.

Why does it need to be competitive? There's dozens of templates out there, but you'll only be able to take a tiny fraction of them at best. It's like complaining that all wizard spells of a certain level aren't on the same power scale. But does it really matter? You can only prepare a tiny fraction of them!

If you're worried about competitiveness, chances are that you know how distinguish the power level of the stuff and will avoid templates you find too weak. If you're not worried about competitiveness, then you're not worried about competitiveness.



The only rational fix for this is to adjust the inter-template power differences so they're ranked on the same scale; any sweeping change to all templates will leave the difference untouched and either make one too good or leave the other too weak.
And that's a work for the DM depending on the number of splatbooks he's using and the characteristics of his campaign. Mineral warrior wouldn't be that usefull where everybody and their mother has adamantine weapons and you'll need to fly/swim a lot, and feral would hardly be my first choice for an intrigue heavy campaign.

Draxar
2009-12-04, 08:52 AM
This seems much more like a balance decision than just arbitrary barrenness.

Perhaps, but saying "You need to sacrifice to get into this class", I'd rather have higher requirements, more downsides, or whatever. Not "Well done! You're a new pale master! You get... diddly squat!"

Sliver
2009-12-04, 09:02 AM
It's my philosophy that casters are already pretty good with just their spells, so giving them anything else on top of the spells should be handled with a 11 foot stick.

I don't really agree with that.. Casters are pretty good, and it is pretty likely that they will use their normal toys even if presented with something else.

If fighter's power is x, then x+1 might be a big deal for him and helps. But if we take a wizard that has power y^4, then y^4+1 won't really make him that much stronger, and just adds an interesting option that he can use how he likes even if its not the most optimal, because it won't make that much of a difference.

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 09:10 AM
If fighter's power is x, then x+1 might be a big deal for him and helps. But if we take a wizard that has power y^4, then y^4+1 won't really make him that much stronger, and just adds an interesting option that he can use how he likes even if its not the most optimal, because it won't make that much of a difference.

Really? Didn't you see my shadow sorceror example? It can't be pierced by true seeing as it's nonmagical, so other casters can't target him, but he can target them back all right.

Another is phrenic. Get fission at lv 17 if you don't have LA. Now there's two of you raining magic death in your oponents, and unlike clone, you didn't need to expend a single gold piece or exp.

The only way of balancing that it's if we force the casters to ditch some precious spell levels and CL.

Sliver
2009-12-04, 09:28 AM
I think playing a hamster is a valid solution to not being targeted by others.
Anyway, it just means caster's templates should be more regulated or restricted to some extent, but not being punished for choosing them.

Getting less LA to spend, not being able to trade out templates.. I donno, but it shouldn't be an option that is restricted to mundane.. With so many things explained with "a wizard did it", there should be an option for "a wizard did it, to himself"

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 09:35 AM
"a wizard did it, to himself"

It's called alter self. And polymorph. And shapechange. And...

Sliver
2009-12-04, 09:53 AM
It's called alter self. And polymorph. And shapechange. And...

You win this round.. But mark my words...

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 11:05 AM
It's my philosophy that casters are already pretty good with just their spells, so giving them anything else on top of the spells should be handled with a 11 foot stick. Ever saw a shadow sorceror with reduced LA combining all his defensive buffs with permanent nonmagic concealment? Not pretty.

*shrug* Casters get the concealment from spells anyways; non-magicality really matters only in Dead Magic Zones and that's about it. I don't see how this matters; casters aren't doing much in Dead Magic Zones anyways.


But it punishes noncasters! If you're a melee dude, you need to hit people with a pointy stick, so there's no way around the -X

And it punishes casters all the same. It punishes both far less than LA, while still maintaining a similar penalty.


Refluffing, reflufing, and some more reflufing on top of it. You're not a mineral warrior. You're a really tough dwarf. You're not a prenic creature. You're an elf with lighting reflexes. Ect ect. If the freaking warblade is dispeling any and every effects on himself and throwing tarrasques in the air, and the crusader is making his allies move twice as fast as before, sorry, but they're surely not "simple" anymore.

So what's the point of all this if you suggest refluffing it all? Just a bunch of really strong ability sets available for warrior types? Why not just rebuild the classes better and let those who want to play Feral Dwarves play Feral Dwarves?


(And hey, last time I checked most heroic fantasy is around prince something of the super awesome family who has descended/blessed by super race X doing epic stuff, not Joe farmer sudenly deciding to go slay dragons with his bare hands. In the best of cases, Joe farmer will go dragon hunting after finding the super sword of dragon slaying by chance)

Hmm? Supernatural heritage is a theme in some stories, but the hero? He gets by with his wits, skill and humane abilities. That's why he is the hero; he overcomes seemingly impossible odds with just what he has. They aren't ordinary people, but they're still people rather than half-insertdeificcreaturehere; the hero merely represents the pinnacle of human power.


People tried that. We ended up with a book who gives disguised SLAs to warriors, and for some reason half of the people out there call them "mundane". So heck, why can't I claim that my minotaur warrior is just a realy big human? Don't those also apear in heroic fantasy left and right?

...right... You know what, believe what you want. I'd just be wasting my time discussing this with you.


Why does it need to be competitive? There's dozens of templates out there, but you'll only be able to take a tiny fraction of them at best. It's like complaining that all wizard spells of a certain level aren't on the same power scale. But does it really matter? You can only prepare a tiny fraction of them!

Templates present many sorts creatures that some players might wanna play. Like, someone might want to play a Half-Dragon and another a Half-Celestial. If the templates were on approximately the same level, that'd be more doable. Spells? Well, I've hardly heard of people wanting to focus on Alarm. And honestly, most of the bad ones are just niché rather than strictly worse (though few of those do exist, and yes, they should be fixed).


If you're worried about competitiveness, chances are that you know how distinguish the power level of the stuff and will avoid templates you find too weak. If you're not worried about competitiveness, then you're not worried about competitiveness.

And if I want to play a Half-Dragon, you're telling me to go cry in a corner?


And that's a work for the DM depending on the number of splatbooks he's using and the characteristics of his campaign. Mineral warrior wouldn't be that usefull where everybody and their mother has adamantine weapons and you'll need to fly/swim a lot, and feral would hardly be my first choice for an intrigue heavy campaign.

...what the hell are you talking about? Basically, you suggest that you not only have Fighters pick a bunch of templates, but then you build the campaign so as to screw over whatever Templates he chose thus nullifying the point of doing this in the first place?


So, if I understand this correctly, instead of fixing Templates or the poorly structured classes, you propose to fix Fighters by giving them access to random ability sets every other level, and fix Templates by making them accessible to random classes?

In other words, instead of coming up with a structured rebuild for e.g. Fighter, you decide to screw it and say "Whatever, just take whichever abilities you can find in templates." Is this your goal? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Mahtobedis
2009-12-04, 11:30 AM
So would a level 20 sorcerer have a +19 LA template?

Barbarian MD
2009-12-04, 11:38 AM
The best way to do this would be to apply it differently to different tiers.

Wizard Tier: No free LA
Monk Tier: Lots of free LA

And then either roleplay it by refluffing, or use savage species rules for progressing a template that you want to keep over the long haul.

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 01:08 PM
Mahtobedis:Sorcerors learn new spells every level. They have no dead levels.


*shrug* Casters get the concealment from spells anyways; non-magicality really matters only in Dead Magic Zones and that's about it. I don't see how this matters; casters aren't doing much in Dead Magic Zones anyways.

True seeing easily pierces magical concealment, the reason many people consider illusion school subpar. Shadow template... Not so much.



Hmm? Supernatural heritage is a theme in some stories, but the hero? He gets by with his wits, skill and humane abilities. That's why he is the hero; he overcomes seemingly impossible odds with just what he has. They aren't ordinary people, but they're still people rather than half-insertdeificcreaturehere; the hero merely represents the pinnacle of human power.

And what exactly is the pinacle of human power? Three kingdoms has normal humans killing other dudes by screaming and making cities apear by punching the ground, both described as completely nonmagical.



...right... You know what, believe what you want. I'd just be wasting my time discussing this with you.

No, no, we're geting somewhere here...



Templates present many sorts creatures that some players might wanna play. Like, someone might want to play a Half-Dragon and another a Half-Celestial. If the templates were on approximately the same level, that'd be more doable. Spells? Well, I've hardly heard of people wanting to focus on Alarm. And honestly, most of the bad ones are just niché rather than strictly worse (though few of those do exist, and yes, they should be fixed).

Yes, I'm feeling something...



And if I want to play a Half-Dragon, you're telling me to go cry in a corner?

I would tell you to pick other templates and refluff them as half-dragon, but...



...what the hell are you talking about? Basically, you suggest that you not only have Fighters pick a bunch of templates, but then you build the campaign so as to screw over whatever Templates he chose thus nullifying the point of doing this in the first place?

No, I meant to say that certain templates are situational and you may find yourself in a situation where their bonus aren't that usefull to you.



So, if I understand this correctly, instead of fixing Templates or the poorly structured classes, you propose to fix Fighters by giving them access to random ability sets every other level, and fix Templates by making them accessible to random classes?

In other words, instead of coming up with a structured rebuild for e.g. Fighter, you decide to screw it and say "Whatever, just take whichever abilities you can find in templates." Is this your goal? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I now realize that was my goal. And it is indeed wrong. A funny tought that crossed my mind, but still very flawed.



So what's the point of all this if you suggest refluffing it all? Just a bunch of really strong ability sets available for warrior types? Why not just rebuild the classes better and let those who want to play Feral Dwarves play Feral Dwarves?

You're...Completely right. I had hoped someone else would've done so by now, but it's time I take matters in my own hands. Pathfinder did too litle. Others did too much. Based on my DM-fu, I'm going to do a proper rebuild of the whole 3.X system from (almost) scratch! Not just the classes, but items, monsters, templates, combat rules, everything I can get free time to! Screw computer games, this seems like a better way of wasting using my free time!

Expect the first draft this weekend posted around here. I expect YOU to critisize it!

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 01:20 PM
True seeing easily pierces magical concealment, the reason many people consider illusion school subpar. Shadow template... Not so much.

About that, True Seeing is just about the only thing that does. Yes, unfortunately the most powerful Outsiders have it, but beyond that, it doesn't tend to be constantly active.


And what exactly is the pinacle of human power? Three kingdoms has normal humans killing other dudes by screaming and making cities apear by punching the ground, both described as completely nonmagical.

Depends from the work of fiction, of course. Look at...any damn piece of fiction with a non-magical character in the limelight. You can find like...Hercules that's somehow magically empowered; the rest are just badass enough to beat up magicians.


I would tell you to pick other templates and refluff them as half-dragon, but...

Such as?


No, I meant to say that certain templates are situational and you may find yourself in a situation where their bonus aren't that usefull to you.

How is that relevant to anything?


I now realize that was my goal. And it is indeed wrong. A funny tought that crossed my mind, but still very flawed.

Could you explain your bloody goal instead of wasting everyone's time with pointless replies?


You're...Completely right. I had hoped someone else would've done so by now, but it's time I take matters in my own hands. Pathfinder did too litle. Others did too much. Based on my DM-fu, I'm going to do a proper rebuild of the whole 3.X system from (almost) scratch! Not just the classes, but items, monsters, templates, combat rules, everything I can get free time to! Screw computer games, this seems like a better way of wasting using my free time!

Expect the first draft this weekend posted around here. I expect YOU to critisize it!

...yeah, that's very helpful. There are plenty of Fighter-fixes out there; why not use one of them?

Oslecamo
2009-12-04, 08:07 PM
...yeah, that's very helpful. There are plenty of Fighter-fixes out there; why not use one of them?

Because I consider them a waste of my time, since they don't really fix anything. And since you keep throwing half sugestions, why do you complain when I try to fill in the other half?

imperialspectre
2009-12-05, 12:23 AM
The Penny Dreadfuls people did something very similar to this when we released the War-marked. The difference is, we're actually checking fairly carefully for balance and limiting the ability sets one can get at each level to something level-appropriate.

I don't know if you've checked out the result yet, but if not feel free to go here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQy814N0Rw6OZGdzNHBid3dfM2NjbXo5Mmcy&hl=en) for the class and here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aclf_LtvhqMlZGhwbTc4OTlfNTYyNnh2dmM1&hl=en) for the current marks and the discussion about what to do with them.

Eldariel
2009-12-05, 03:12 AM
Because I consider them a waste of my time, since they don't really fix anything. And since you keep throwing half sugestions, why do you complain when I try to fill in the other half?

The principal issue is that instead of creating a balanced and useful ability set for Fighters to draw from, you pick a system already in the game engine with not least bit of balance and randomally apply it as a fix. I do not think that results in a good fix and I do not think the thought process is really functional. I was really hoping you'd do something to make Templates more usable for everyone, which is why I was a bit disappointed.

In addition to the Warmarked, but something totally different, I think the Rebalancing Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0) has one of the better Fighter-fixes to the date; relevant immediate action capabilities, some parry-like abilities, extra actions, reach increases, he's still a Fighter but his presence on the battlefield is truly relevant.

Oslecamo
2009-12-05, 06:54 AM
The principal issue is that instead of creating a balanced and useful ability set for Fighters to draw from, you pick a system already in the game engine with not least bit of balance and randomally apply it as a fix. I do not think that results in a good fix and I do not think the thought process is really functional. I was really hoping you'd do something to make Templates more usable for everyone, which is why I was a bit disappointed.
And I will. Check out my new thread, finding the flaws in 3.X. I plan on redoing monsters and multiclassing so they're automaticaly player compatible. Starting by making monsters have HD=CR.



In addition to the Warmarked, but something totally different, I think the Rebalancing Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0) has one of the better Fighter-fixes to the date; relevant immediate action capabilities, some parry-like abilities, extra actions, reach increases, he's still a Fighter but his presence on the battlefield is truly relevant.

Warmarked is basicaly a psionic chaos spawn, not a fighter in any sense of the word. The other fix is nice, but still not good enough. Altough it's more a blame of the casters.