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dangerprawn
2009-12-02, 04:23 PM
Martial Adept Fighter
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mic_gallery/99783.jpg

Hey all, I had an idea on how I'd like to rework the Fighter class in 3.5, so I decided to register an account here and share it with you all.

Most of the Fighter remains the same. Base attack bonus, saves, bonus feats, those don't change. The difference is the addition of a small number of maneuvers and stances and a few skill changes.
Class Features:

Skills: Fighters receive 4 skill points per level. Balance and Martial Lore are added to the Fighters class skill list. In addition the key skill of the Fighters chosen discipline is added to his or her list of class skills.

Maneuvers: The Fighter knows one martial maneuver at first level, chosen from the disciplines available to him or her. All Fighters know the Stone Dragon discipline, in addition to one other discipline of their choice. Once chosen this discipline may not be changed.

The Fighter learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Fighter level after that, the Fighter may choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he or she already knows. This functions as the Warblade ability, on pg 21.

Maneuvers Readied: The Fighter may being an encounter with a certain number of maneuvers readied, according to the table.

Maneuver Recovery:When a fighter uses a maneuver, that maneuver is expended and must be readied again before use. The Fighter uses the Warblade recovery mechanic, as listed on pg 22.

Stances Known: A Fighter starts with knowledge of one stance, chosen from his or her known two disciplines. At 5th, 11th, and 16th level the Fighter may choose additional stances. This follows the rules of stances on pg 22.

Maneuvers and Stances Known
{table=head]Level| Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers readied|Stances Known

1st|
1|
1|
1

2nd|
1|
1|
1

3rd|
2|
2|
1

4th|
2|
2|
1

5th|
3|
3|
2

6th|
3|
3|
2

7th|
4|
4|
2

8th|
4|
4|
2

9th|
5|
5|
2

10th|
5|
5|
2

11th|
6|
6|
3

12th|
6|
6|
3

13th|
7|
7|
3

14th|
7|
7|
3

15th|
8|
8|
3

16th|
8|
8|
4

17th|
9|
9|
4

18th|
9|
9|
4

19th|
9|
9|
4

20th|
9|
9|
4[/table]

Explanation of Concept: I've liked the idea of maneuvers and stances ever since Tome of Battle came out. My biggest concern was that none of these things were readily available to be used by the core Fighter. The Martial Stance and Martial Study feats are poor fixes to allow the Fighter to compete with the power of the martial adept classes.

My view of the Fighter is that he or she is the basic foundation for all martial combat. The Fighter isn't inherently specialized like the Ranger or Knight are. The Fighter's strength is in his or her options of bonus feats and basic combat prowess. Through a careful selection of feats the Fighter can do things with a blade that even a primary caster couldn't replicate. For an example of this, search the Wizards CO boards for a build called Jack B. Quick.

The problem is that the three martial adept classes can do the job of a Fighter as well as, or even better than, the actual Fighter. By allowing the basic Fighter access to maneuvers and stances, the Fighter maintains his or her credibility among the warrior classes without forcing any particular Fighter to change the way he or she fights.

I chose only two disciplines for this reason. The Stone Dragon discipline is one of the most basic of the disciplines and available to all martial adepts. The fundamentals of the discipline are 1) stand tough and 2) hit stuff hard. Those are basic combat skills. The second discipline of choice allows the Fighter to decide which type of Fighter he or she wants to be, much like the selection of feats does.

The Fighter knows a small selection of maneuvers, but they are constantly available to him or her, just like any other basic combat options are available to any character (attack, charge, disarm, trip, etc).

The Fighter's maneuvers may also be thought of as an extension of those basic combat options. The Fighter has the opportunity to specialize in advanced combat options (maneuvers) and once he or she does they are always ready to use.

Conclusion: Any comments or critiques are welcome. Thanks to Fax Celestis for the table code; I found it in your thread Guide to Homebrewing.

Edit: Added the Warblade Recovery Mechanic. Adjusted the levels at which the Fighter learns a new maneuver. Increased the total number of Maneuvers known by one to accommodate new progression.

Added table entry for number of Maneuvers Readied.

Ouranos
2009-12-02, 11:03 PM
Possible for infinate manuvers to become overpowered, not real well versed on them. I would suggest an extremely low number of readied, but high known, making him really pick and choose. Possibly even limit his known disciplines to make him focus. make him more like a wizard, who beats things to death instead of casts a fireball. takes the same amount of training, knowledge and pre work, but in differant areas.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 11:15 PM
Yea... this could be really overpowered... by the time he gets to 3rd level, he can use Greater Invisibility as the spell every turn. Granted, it lasts only during his turn, but still, no AoOs and attack flat-footed AC every turn. Combine that with Emerald Razor, we're looking at attacking 10 > AC every turn. Combined with Assassin's Stance, he even gets +2d6 sneak attack without being a rogue at fifth level. I'm sure there are many worse abuses, but that's just one of them.

Shyftir
2009-12-02, 11:16 PM
A Warblade can keep up nearly infinite use with just a bit of feat selection, and really its not like fighters aren't underpowered the higher you go anyway.

Edit!
As long as he is restricted to just stone dragon and any ONE other school it shouldn't get too crazy but I'm not familiar with all the useful maneuvers in all the schools so maybe I'm missing some obvious problems.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 11:18 PM
Warblade? Do you mean Swordsage? But the point is if you can keep using the same maneuver every round, especially if its a boost, it could get broken. At least with Swordsage or Warblade, you can use a maneuver every round, but you can't spam the same ones over and over again.

EDIT: Ok, I didn't read the whole thing and didn't realize that they only get access to two different disciplines. So the full extent of that exploit isn't completely viable, but still, being able to attack invisibly every round is pretty crazy if you're only 3rd level (Cloak of Deception is a second level maneuver). Not sure how bad it would be compared to spellcasters though.

Shyftir
2009-12-02, 11:23 PM
You ready your chosen maneuver multiple times, then use the warblades ability to recover all maneuvers with a single simple attack round and you are back to using your chosen maneuver repeatedly.

I built a fighter/warblade character to do this easily.

I used the Adaptive Style Feat to switch to whatever maneuvers I thought most useful with one round of consecration then was able to spam my chosen maneuver for the vast majority of a combat.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 11:27 PM
You can't ready a maneuver multiple times. It doesn't work even by RAW.
[...]When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (until you recover them, as described below).

So technically you can actually ready the maneuver multiple times but whenever you initiate the maneuver, you can't use it again during the encounter unless you recover them. So you can's spam it over and over again.

Gpope
2009-12-02, 11:30 PM
You ready your chosen maneuver multiple times, then use the warblades ability to recover all maneuvers with a single simple attack round and you are back to using your chosen maneuver repeatedly.

Didn't like the very first Q&A after Tome of Battle was released say you can't ready additional copies of a maneuver?

Anyhow, I'm not sure being limited to 2 schools is much of a balance against infinite boosts, since they can take the Martial Study feat to cherry pick whatever they want. And if there's one thing fighters have, it's feats.

Shyftir
2009-12-02, 11:31 PM
I read that as being like readied spells, once you use it its gone til you rest, but a wizard can ready magic missile in all his slots and use it repeatedly.

I didn't have the FAQ just the book when I was playing. By the book I seemed fine, everybody else agreed.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-02, 11:32 PM
I would probably say "any two disciplines from the Warblade list"

Because I just don't see a Fighter with anything from Setting Sun or Shadow Hand or even Devoted Spirit...

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 11:33 PM
Well martial study isn't the problem because it says that if you don't have a recovery method available to you, then you can't recover the maneuver. The problem is you can do all sorts of abuses if you have the ability to perform a maneuver every round with no disbenefits.

EDIT: @^: Fighter was always made to fill the role of any type of fighting man. Being able to wield a bow, or finesse weapon better than a rogue or ranger is fully within the Fighter's power, given his vast repretiore of options. And I could definitely see a Fighter in the most traditional sense using Devoted Spirit style attacks.

hiryuu
2009-12-02, 11:36 PM
I read that as being like readied spells, once you use it its gone til you rest, but a wizard can ready magic missile in all his slots and use it repeatedly.

I didn't have the FAQ just the book when I was playing. By the book I seemed fine, everybody else agreed.

By the book, maneuvers you know have three states: Readied, Expended, and Unreadied. If a maneuver is Readied, it can't be put in that state again. What's so complex about that?

Shyftir
2009-12-02, 11:43 PM
If maneuvers are read as similar to spells, (Which is what I was doing.) It made sense to be able to ready multiple copies of a maneuver, just like you can spells.

So we were playing that each maneuver was completely separate from other copies of itself. The difference was less than clear because the book tends to use correlations to spells to explain the system in the first place. I don't have the book on me right now. It's one owned by another part of my gaming group.

Without the Q&A, our understanding made perfect sense. Now that I know of the Q&A, I wouldn't do it this way, but the reading was obviously something that needed clarifying of they'd not have covered it in the Q&A.

dangerprawn
2009-12-02, 11:45 PM
Krazddndfreek Good catch on the Martial Study and no recovery clause.

ShneekeyTheLost I envision Fighters of every discipline. A Fighter with access to Devoted Spirit would be a powerful and versatile melee combatant, just as Crusaders are. If a player wanted a Sneaky Fighter they could choose Shadow Hand, or a Fire based Fighter might go with Desert Wind.


I am a little wary of the possibilities for abuse. Greater Invisibility every round at 3rd level does invite abuse. The problem is how to limit this. Is the general reaction that some kind of recovery mechanic is necessary?

If so, what if there were a 1 round recharge type of thing, where the Fighter had to wait a round before using the maneuver again. It's similar in effect to the Warblades recovery mechanic, but requires no action. Or would it be simpler to just use the Warblades recovery mechanic, but have the Fighter limit of readied maneuvers equal his or her number of known maneuvers?

How about the number of maneuvers known and the progression at which the Fighter learns them? Any ideas/problems/flaws with that?

Shyftir
2009-12-02, 11:53 PM
Right now the class seems to out shine the warblade iirc, pretty handily. More versatility outside of maneuver system, fewer maneuvers LOTS more feat variety. The Skill points are equal, the Hd is slightly smaller.

It's pretty close to right. Maybe it should be limited on max level maneuvers that can be learned. Or be designed like a half-casting class.

Also since the number of maneuvers known/readied is small. Warblade style recovery makes good sense. Limits you to spamming it every other turn (or so) instead of every turn.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-02, 11:59 PM
Yea, maybe the warblade mechanic would probably work best, though you might be able to experiment with a recharge system the same way they have for monsters in 4e. A roll of 5 or 6 recharges it the next round (?). Or how the dragon's breath weapon works.

Also, I don't think it would be too horrid to grant fighters the ability to take maneuvers at the level they get new ones. Though they only get 8? I guess that's fine. As long as it has the same ability as martial classes to retrain them.

dangerprawn
2009-12-03, 12:06 AM
Shyftir The Warblade still has things to separate it from the Fighter. In my view the two most important are the Warblades greater selection of maneuvers and the Weapon Aptitude, allowing the Warblade to switch feats.

Krazddndfreek I think I had meant to modify the Warlock progression to fit with the level at which new maneuvers are gained, but I forgot. I will fix that.

It seems as though the Warblade recovery mechanic is being favored. I would rather go with that than create another system. The idea of a random recharge, like a breath weapon, doesn't feel like it would fit, for me at least.

Shyftir
2009-12-03, 12:22 AM
See the Weapon Aptitude is one of those things I forgot, because I don't have the source materials right in front of me.

In that case, it seems pretty well balanced as is, that is with a warblade's recovery method.

Scow2
2009-12-03, 08:16 PM
I hate any "Fix"/Change to a class that is Better Across the Board than the original class... The original fighter can be finessed in ways to outshine the ToB classes. Also, no Martial Adept is proficient in ranged weaponry for a reason... Any suggestions I'd have for fixing it, though, would just make it a Warblade/Fighter hybrid.

The proper solution to get a powerful melee fighter is just to multiclass between Warblade and Fighter, focusing on whichever aspect appeals to you more...

The fighter is a specialist, the Warblade is a Generalist.

And fighter levels increase Initiator Level by half for the purpose of determining maneuvers available, so you don't get gimped that way... And you can change your known maneuvers every four Fighter levels...

I say make a Class Synergy feat to reduce penalties of the multiclassing between them...

Scow2
2009-12-03, 09:28 PM
My above rant aside, I actually think I approve of the change. As long as it doesn't overpower the Warblade, I can respect and love it because it makes the Fighter Class fun...

Of course, that said, I already have a Variant: The Brigand, for lack of a better term. It's essentially the Thug variant of this Martial Adept Fighter, loosing Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency in exchange for replacing automatic access to the Stone Dragon school with access to the Iron Heart school... If the loss of armor proficiency isn't enough, I'd also suggest sacrificing the first Fighter bonus Feat... but that probably should be sacrificed anyway for the extra skill points. With the loss of the first Fighter Bonus Feat out of the way, we can pay lip service to saying "It's a Variant, not Superioriant!"

I can't imagine fighters being able to freely choose Shadow Hand, since that seems to be for more cowardly types, like the swordsage.
Maybe I just want to play an agile fighter with almost free access to Desert Wind and Iron Heart schools... Mutually incompatible by normal ToB rules, but perfect for a Desert Brigand-type...

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-03, 09:57 PM
...that is a terrible, terrible idea.

Shadow Hand/Desert Wind, Iron Heart, and Devoted Spirit were all kept seperate for a very simple reason. They are the best schools. They define their respective classes. Death Mark and Iron Heart Surge? Sign me the hell up.

Stone Dragon is the worst school in the entire set. Letting a Variant drop it for the far more powerful schools is an extrodinarily bad idea.

Scow2
2009-12-03, 10:04 PM
I have my answer...

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-03, 10:14 PM
Also, Danger, if I may make a suggestion, make a maneuvers readied column, and set it to the same number as maneuvers known. Otherwise the feat Martial Study becomes insanely good for this class.

It becomes two feats in one, duplicating the effects of Extra Readied/Extra Granted Maneuver, and Martial Study. As it stands, a Martial Adept Fighter can have a total of 28 Readied Maneuvers at the beginning of Combat, outstripping the Swordsage, who was intended to be the class with the most readied maneuvers. It has 2 less stances, but the Warblade Recovery method, making it a better Swordsage then the Swordsage itself.

Scow2
2009-12-03, 10:16 PM
I... agree with that restriction.

pyrefiend
2009-12-03, 10:17 PM
Seems strange to me that you'd choose Stone Dragon... I'd have gone with Iron Heart, as it seems to have the most appropriate flavor- i.e. mastery of non-supernatural swordplay.

And I also tend to think that certain powerful disciplines should be restricted, if only for flavor purposes. If you want to shoot fire with swords, that's cool, but be a mystical ninja guy. Don't play the quintessential basic melee class.

I'd allow for Iron Heart automatically plus Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, White Raven, or Tiger Claw. There's also a lot of great homebrew disciplines on this forum, particularly Demented One's stuff.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-03, 10:20 PM
I think the reason he went with Stone Dragon was A) it is generally agreed to be the weakest of the Schools, and B) every Martial Adept in the ToB class has access to it.

---

And glad to hear it Scow. I thought it seemed pretty logical, given the way the feats were intended to work.

dangerprawn
2009-12-03, 10:20 PM
Also, Danger, if I may make a suggestion, make a maneuvers readied column, and set it to the same number as maneuvers known. Otherwise the feat Martial Study becomes insanely good for this class.

It becomes two feats in one, duplicating the effects of Extra Readied/Extra Granted Maneuver, and Martial Study. As it stands, a Martial Adept Fighter can have a total of 28 Readied Maneuvers at the beginning of Combat, outstripping the Swordsage, who was intended to be the class with the most readied maneuvers. It has 2 less stances, but the Warblade Recovery method, making it a better Swordsage then the Swordsage itself.

Good Catch. Consider this implemented until I have time to update the post.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-03, 10:25 PM
Good Catch. Consider this implemented until I have time to update the post.

Thank Scow. He reminded me of Martial Study, which I tend to forget as a feat. It's good, but I usually don't take it, out of personal preference. Started me thinking about the feat, and after that, the math kind of worked itself out.

Arbitrarious
2009-12-04, 02:18 AM
Also, Danger, if I may make a suggestion, make a maneuvers readied column, and set it to the same number as maneuvers known. Otherwise the feat Martial Study becomes insanely good for this class.

It becomes two feats in one, duplicating the effects of Extra Readied/Extra Granted Maneuver, and Martial Study. As it stands, a Martial Adept Fighter can have a total of 28 Readied Maneuvers at the beginning of Combat, outstripping the Swordsage, who was intended to be the class with the most readied maneuvers. It has 2 less stances, but the Warblade Recovery method, making it a better Swordsage then the Swordsage itself.

Is that assuming they take Martial Study as their bonus feat at every level?

Also a suggestion for a recovery mechanic. You recharge 1 maneuver each round automatically with a 1 round delay before a maneuver can be recharged. For example if you use White Raven Tactics and Mountain Hammer on turn 1 of combat, 1 of those maneuvers (your choice) would recover on the turn after next (1 round cooldown). A careful fighter can have infinite maneuvers but it would also be possible to burn out. You could just say any maneuver recovers after the 1 round cooldown, but considering they are keeping their feats I would say let them be more cautious or take Adaptive Style and burn a full round if they want to spam Martial abilities.

jiriku
2009-12-05, 07:58 PM
I would second the suggestion that Iron Heart is a better choice to represent the "default discipline" than Stone Dragon.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 09:05 PM
I think the default should be a choice between the two.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 09:26 PM
I disagree. Iron Heart is a much better discipline then Stone Dragon. It, and Devoted Spirit are probably the two strongest, standing alone.

Allowing a Martial Fighter to pick both of those would make him extremely powerful.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 09:36 PM
Er... You do understand he's one easily acquired feat away from having both right?

Also, your definition of "extremely powerful" must be referring to somewhere in Tier 3, and maybe the upper echelons of Tier 4, which is not extremely powerful at all by any objective measure.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 10:16 PM
A Feat doesn't open up the discipline. It just means you can pick up one Maneuver. You still have to go back and drop a feat for every single Maneuver you want outside of the School. Feats aren't as big a deal for a Fighter Build, but it is still concerning.

And I am saying powerful, in comparison to the other Martial Adepts.

T1 and T2 can't be compared. Who the hell cares. They are broken, and shouldn't be a metric of comparison. A Martial Adept Fighter with both Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart Schools would be better then a Warblade or Crusader.

Thats what I mean, and yes, that is too powerful by 'objective measures.'

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 10:24 PM
As with spells (well, discounting splatbooks) there are only really a handful of especially useful maneuvers per school. Coupled with the fact that the Fighter often has more free feats than he knows what to do with, it really is a non-issue.

Further if something cannot compete in T2, it is not unbalanced. T2 is the definitive measure of whether something is or is not unbalanced. Do you really believe that if the fighter had access to both disciplines, he'd be anywhere near there, or that he'd be so far gone from the best that T3 has to offer he'd be somewhere in his own 2.5 Tier? "Extremely powerful" insinuates something is T2 or better. Such a variant of the Martial Fighter is not by any measure "extremely powerful".

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 10:43 PM
T2 is unbalenced. T2 is not extremely powerful. T2 be definition, almost has unlimited power.

The Tier system is set up so that Tiers 1 and 2 are the exact same in terms of Power Level. A Wizard and Sorcerer are the baseline here. Frankly, they are almost the exact same, in terms of power level. What keeps them apart is the fact that the Wizard is good at everything, while the Sorcerer has to pick and choose.

The Versality of Tier 1 is what makes it different then Tier 2, not power.

Thusly, Tier 2 is just as terrible of a metric of comparison as Tier 1. They both can destroy campaigns. Tier 1 just has more ways of doing it.

And frankly, unlike Spells, most of the Maneuvers in ToB are pretty well done. And if a Fighter really can't find something to use a Feat on, he's not built well. There is a reason Stone Dragon is open to all 3 Martial Adepts, and Iron Heart is only open to one.

The Martial Fighter should sit with the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, not be more powerful then them. As it stands, this Homebrew is actually pretty balenced. You change moves the Martial Fighter above the three base Martial Adept Classes. That is a problem.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 10:58 PM
Versatility is power, but I agree with you that once a character is capable of breaking a campaign, everything beyond that is just overkill. That said, T2 is extreme power by definition of its ability to trash campaigns, and by its objective position in the overall power curve. Extremely powerful is not what I would use to describe anything in T3. Strong? Yes. Competitive? Absolutely. Extremely powerful? Not when it lacks the qualifying ability to break campaigns. Thus, if the Martial Fighter is not in T2, it is not unbalanced or extremely powerful. That said, it all ultimately comes down to whether the class is substantially better than the best of T3, not whether it is better than a small subset of T3 (which I think is disputable even if it did have the ability to gain both the Iron and Devoted disciplines).

Also, while I like how they handled Maneuvers relative to spells, they still suffer from the same flaws that spells do; a lot if not most of them happen to be either trash, or just woefully outshined by obviously superior ones.

Finally, Fighters, especially Fighters geared to work with Maneuvers are going to have plenty of feats available for the best picks from each tree; true you can only get three, but chances are pretty good that or less is all you need for a given build. It's not that Fighters literally have more feats than they know what to do with, so much as that they have more feats than there are indispensable build components.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 11:05 PM
I disagree that the concern should be to balence it against some hypothetical "T3" ideal. The three Three Martial Adept classes are the proper metric.

I disagree that most of the maneuvers are 'trash.' In fact, I think most of them are actually very well designed. But that is neither here nor there.

And if you want to take the position that it isn't more powerful then the base Martial Adepts with both Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit, go ahead. I don't agree, but at least it is possible to discuss that.

Douglas
2009-12-05, 11:10 PM
The concerns about picking Martial Study as every feat to pick up extra disciplines and huge numbers of maneuvers known/readied are a bit overboard, I think. Martial Study can't be taken more than 3 times. That is, at most, a small dabbling in one additional discipline, and most of the really high level maneuvers will be off limits due to requiring 3 or more same-discipline maneuvers as a prerequisite.

pyrefiend
2009-12-05, 11:15 PM
I disagree. Iron Heart is a much better discipline then Stone Dragon. It, and Devoted Spirit are probably the two strongest, standing alone.

Allowing a Martial Fighter to pick both of those would make him extremely powerful.
This is why I recommend that the choice for the second discipline be narrowed down to only the less flashy, supernatural disciplines. Iron Heart makes a far better candidate than Stone Dragon for the automatic discipline, as it's fluff is fairly generic and vague. Stone Dragon has definite ties to very specific fluff that doesn't fit all fighters.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 11:18 PM
The concerns about picking Martial Study as every feat to pick up extra disciplines and huge numbers of maneuvers known/readied are a bit overboard, I think. Martial Study can't be taken more than 3 times. That is, at most, a small dabbling in one additional discipline, and most of the really high level maneuvers will be off limits due to requiring 3 or more same-discipline maneuvers as a prerequisite.

That was really just me going overboard. My point was more that allowing someone to expand their maneuvers readied by adding to their Maneuvers known is a bad idea.


This is why I recommend that the choice for the second discipline be narrowed down to only the less flashy, supernatural disciplines. Iron Heart makes a far better candidate than Stone Dragon for the automatic discipline, as it's fluff is fairly generic and vague. Stone Dragon has definite ties to very specific fluff that doesn't fit all fighters.

This might work, I suppose. Depends on the schools that were open.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 11:25 PM
I disagree that the concern should be to balence it against some hypothetical "T3" ideal. The three Three Martial Adept classes are the proper metric.

I disagree that most of the maneuvers are 'trash.' In fact, I think most of them are actually very well designed. But that is neither here nor there.

And if you want to take the position that it isn't more powerful then the base Martial Adepts with both Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit, go ahead. I don't agree, but at least it is possible to discuss that.

T3 balancing is where it's at. Honestly, I could care less how the class stacks up against the other martial adept classes (and again, I don't think it's significantly better than the best of them, even with that change), so long as it is not by and large the best of the T3s, which would actually indicate an objective imbalance.

Also 'a lot' != to most. Most maneuvers are good and viable, but like spells, there are many that simply don't stack up (and there are a few that are just run away awesome for their prereqs/level).

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 11:55 PM
T3 balancing is where it's at. Honestly, I could care less how the class stacks up against the other martial adept classes (and again, I don't think it's significantly better than the best of them, even with that change), so long as it is not by and large the best of the T3s, which would actually indicate an objective imbalance.

Also 'a lot' != to most. Most maneuvers are good and viable, but like spells, there are many that simply don't stack up (and there are a few that are just run away awesome for their prereqs/level).

Then there isn't anything to really say. I find the fact that your change makes the other Martial Adepts irrelevant concerning, you don't.

Surrealistik
2009-12-06, 12:00 AM
Then there isn't anything to really say. I find the fact that your change makes the other Martial Adepts irrelevant concerning, you don't.

First off, that's not necessarily true at all. Second, even assuming the absolute worst case in which that was true (which again I don't think it is) it does not mean the class is imbalanced when held to a more objective and holistic standard.

dangerprawn
2009-12-06, 12:27 AM
This is why I recommend that the choice for the second discipline be narrowed down to only the less flashy, supernatural disciplines. Iron Heart makes a far better candidate than Stone Dragon for the automatic discipline, as it's fluff is fairly generic and vague. Stone Dragon has definite ties to very specific fluff that doesn't fit all fighters.

I would agree that Iron Heart fits the more generic idea of what a Fighter is. I picked Stone Dragon instead because of it's being available to all 3 martial adept classes. That spoke to me of it being something basic and universal, and in one sense the abilities do resemble that. Though some of the them are different, most of the Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances are about Standing Tough in the front line and Hitting Things Hard. I figure that is a basic truism among most Fighter's, though I would concede that it does not fit all fighters.

If I were to change the automatic discipline, Iron Heart would be the replacement, for the reasons you mentioned. However, I would still keep the second discipline open to all of them, for the same reason. Not all fighters are the same, and some are flashier than others.