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Thrawn4
2009-12-02, 07:49 PM
Hi folks.
I'm sure a lot of you already know the Lone Wolf book series (otherwise you should go to Project Aon and have a great time playing it --> http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Home).

At the moment, I'm considering to buy the D20 adaption, but I would like to hear about your experience before I buy it. Though I have to admit I will probably buy it anyway at one day, I don't want to get disappointed, and would appreciate if you could answer these questions:
1.) Are the character classes balanced or are some superior?
2.) Can you customize your character except for the character class or are they quite similar?
3.) Did you enjoy playing it?

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-02, 07:51 PM
I loved the books and still have my copies. (the Kelti fire sphere (book 3) is still my most favorite treasure)

Mongoose87
2009-12-02, 07:52 PM
There were a couple of Neverwinter Nights modules based on it. THey seemed pretty good, but I've never read the books.

Swordguy
2009-12-02, 10:38 PM
AH, excellent! Somebody else who read the books!

Yes, I've played the RPG fairly extensively. It's not bad, but there's some things you need to remember while playing:

1) Prices are insane. Lampsur (healing) potions are in the 400 gold range, and unless you have the supplement with the healer, there's very little in the way of magical healing. More than 1-2 encounters/day at less than 5th level is asking for trouble.

2) The game is NOT balanced. It's not supposed to be, and makes no claims of being so. It is specifically built to be reasonably accurate to the books - which means that Kai and Vakeros Knights are incredibly badass (so are Helghasts, btw). For reference, Kai are effectively gestalt Ranger/Psychic Warriors, while Sommlending Knights are single-class Fighters who get their feats in a specific order at given levels, with a few extra tidbits. be sure you can deal with lack of balance in one way or another.

3) Do NOT start at 1st level. Most of the classes avoid front-loading, but what that ends up meaning is that classes simply aren't survivable until 3rd-4th level. This is especially pronounced in the case of Blue Star Wizards (like Banedon). They're a 1d4 HD class who use their HP pool to power their spells. So, at 1st level, you've got 4+con bonus HP to cast your spells...which tend to average out to 2-3 HP to cast...each. And remember, there's little to no magical healing, so you're stuck resting to regain those HP. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Blue Star Wizards (the casting is thematic and actually pretty good, balance-wise, compared to all non-Kai and non-Vakeros classes), but they simply don't work at low level. This is true to the books as well: you started Flight from the Dark as approx a 5th-level character, if you'll recall. I suggest level 4 as a good starting point.

4) Kai are badass. They are, by far, the most powerful class in the game. It's a "jedi effect", as it were. Make sure your players, if they aren't playing Kai, can deal with this. They are horribly MAD, but they get so many bonuses from their various Kai Disciplines and Lore-circles that it doesn't matter. Oh, many Disciplines (notably Healing) work differently than they do in the books. Make sure you note the differences.

5) Psychic Warfare is BADASS. Psychic combat-capable classes tend to wipe the floor with non-psychics. Psychic combat in Lone Wolf is essentially a "free" action on each player's turn. Generally speaking, you can either do a "total defense" action, an "attack action" (2d6 damage), or a Stun action (stuns opponent for 1d4+1 rounds on failed Will save, also damages them for a bunch). If you're a non-psychic, you automatically get "hit" by said attacks. Oh, and psychics get a separate pool, called Willpower, that both powers their psychic attacks and is an extra pool of hit point that buffers you from psychic damage until it expires. I recommend "finding" magic items very early on that give non-psychics a Psychic Armor Class (so they aren't auto-hit) and a small pool (16-ish) of Willpower.

So, with all this said, I want to emphasize that the game is, in practice, quite fun to play. Just make sure people are aware of the imbalances (parties of entirely Kai are both thematic and timeline appropriate during the years the game is set - that solves a lot of issues), and you won't have too many problems.

Thrawn4
2009-12-03, 09:37 AM
Wow, that's a lot of information. Thank you very much Swordguy :-)

Maybe I should do some homebrewing to balance the classes... it's really a pity that the magicians and dwarfs are put at a disadvantage.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 04:30 PM
Wow, that's a lot of information. Thank you very much Swordguy :-)

Maybe I should do some homebrewing to balance the classes... it's really a pity that the magicians and dwarfs are put at a disadvantage.

Mages supposed to be weak at the beginning, and all the classes except Kai and Vakeros are more-or-less equal by 5th level anyway. You'd have to do a massive nerf to drop Vakeros and Kai to the level of everyone else, to the tune of rewriting the entire classes from scratch and nuking both their intended purpose and their connection to the books (where they are better than everyone else, period). Again, by the style of the books, character start being "adventurers" around 4-5th level, so simply start them there, not at level 1.

Dwarves are fine, by the way. Dwarven Gunners of Bor are cool and hilarious, they're just limited by how much boom powder they can carry.

Unless you've got a bunch of obsessive optimizers in your group who are concerned with squeezing every last drop out of a build, don't worry too much about the balance thing. Just point out that it's similar to the "Jedi are better" thing from any Star Wars game. People who care will play jedi/kai, and people who don't will play whatever they want to play and will continue not to care.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-03, 05:02 PM
There were a couple of Neverwinter Nights modules based on it. THey seemed pretty good, but I've never read the books.



2) The game is NOT balanced. It's not supposed to be, and makes no claims of being so. It is specifically built to be reasonably accurate to the books - which means that Kai and Vakeros Knights are incredibly badass (so are Helghasts, btw). For reference, Kai are effectively gestalt Ranger/Psychic Warriors, while Sommlending Knights are single-class Fighters who get their feats in a specific order at given levels, with a few extra tidbits. be sure you can deal with lack of balance in one way or another.


Wouldn't the helghasts practical immortality and shapeshifting abilities make them the most powerful...race/class/whatever in the game, they are only harmed by epic magic artefacts and weird special magic items, no matter how bad ass their opponents are, they can simply take their time to kill them.

By the way, what are Vakeros Knights again? I've only played until the jungle adventure so perhaps I still have to meet them, but the name does ring a bell.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 06:00 PM
Wouldn't the helghasts practical immortality and shapeshifting abilities make them the most powerful...race/class/whatever in the game, they are only harmed by epic magic artefacts and weird special magic items, no matter how bad ass their opponents are, they can simply take their time to kill them.

Nto as much as you might think. Helghasts are created as they are, so they can't increase in ECL. Once you've leveled past them, they're still a nasty fight, but not the most powerful thing out there by far. If you'll remember, you start taking on and beating them with regularity about book 4 or so.

In the game, they've got practical immunity to damage that isn't magic or psionic (I can't recall offhand if it's flat-out immune, or just huge DR). They also have a blue flame spear that does spear damage, plus strength, plus about 5d6 magic damage, plus Power Attack, and, IIRC, hits on a touch attack AC (ignoring non-magical armor). THIS is a target that the Blue Star Wizards are supposed to drain themselves fighting - since they're the only class that does any significant magical damage sans equipment in the core book.


By the way, what are Vakeros Knights again? I've only played until the jungle adventure so perhaps I still have to meet them, but the name does ring a bell.

Long story, basically Vakeros Knights are Paladin-lite mage-knights who guard the magicians of Dessi. They're the Southern equivalent to Kai. They have Blue Steel weapons and armor (inherently magical, and scale with level) and the ability to perform some small battle magics (not spells really, just abilities that are paid for with Willpower) that buff themselves or debuff opponents. They CAN become psychic combatants, but wait until about 6-8th level to do so (Kai can become psychic combatants as early as level 1, depending on the Disciplines you take). d8 Hit die, Full BAB when using Blue Steel Weapons only, full armor/shield profs, proficiency with Blue Steel Weapons. Their big downside is that except for one spell or psychic combat, they have absolutely no ranged abilities whatsoever. However, since almost nothing in LW flies or teleports, it's not as harsh as it sounds.

Haven
2009-12-03, 06:09 PM
By the way, what are Vakeros Knights again? I've only played until the jungle adventure so perhaps I still have to meet them, but the name does ring a bell.

IIRC, the companion in that book, Paido, was one.

Man, reading this thread I really want to play the game, flaws aside. (Laumpsur costs 400 gold? What.)

Thrawn4
2009-12-03, 08:10 PM
You'd have to do a massive nerf to drop Vakeros and Kai to the level of everyone else, to the tune of rewriting the entire classes from scratch and nuking both their intended purpose and their connection to the books (where they are better than everyone else, period).
I was actually considering to power-up the other classes (for example the Wizards of the Crystal Star through more endurance points). On the other hand, I really don't want to change the awesome atmosphere of the books. Although I'm not even sure if the Kai are supposed to be the superior class (it is true that we get this impression through the books, but 1. you can't be sure that this is just the point of view of the Kai and 2. there a a lot of normal people who make for a really tough fight).
At least it sounds encouring that the wizards of the crystal star are able to hurt the Helghast which are quite deadly indeed.
If we talk about imbalanced, do we talk about fighting or the general situation? I'm pretty sure that the wizards are capable of a lot of non-fighting stuff... (the Kai too, yeah...)


@Haven: Wanna play it too... ^^

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 09:49 PM
Regarding balance: I'm mainly talking about combat balance. Out-of-combat balance isn't all that bad, though you'd be surprised that Crystal Star Wizards (I can't believe I called them blue star wizards - I R idiot) don't actually have much out-of-combat utility. CSWs only have 10 "spells", each of which can be cast in up to 3 different manners, except the Counterspell Spell. Most of them buff the wizard or provide combat FX.

Out-of-combat stuff is done almost entirely through skill ranks in LW. Very few classes have class abilities that directly influence non-combat interactions. Shadaki Buccaneers are one, but they aren't appropriate for many games. Kai are another, depending on which Disciplines they choose. The trick is that the heavy-hitting classes - Kai, Vakeros Knight, Magicians of Dessi, CSWs - all have extremely limited class skill selections.

What I'd suggest if you were to want to "up-gun" the various classes in LW in the core book:
Brother of the Crystal Star - d8 hit die, add +2 skill points/level, gain a Willpower pool by level 3, add option to expend extra ENDURANCE to "power-up" their spell DCs.
Dwarven Gunner of Bor - make sure they have easy access to boom powder, slight increase in rate of gun tricks (1/2 levels instead of 1/3), gain a Willpower pool by level 5
Kai Lord - nothing
Sommlending Knight - d12 hit die, +2 skill points/level, gain a Willpower pool by level 5
Magician of Dessi - nothing
Shadakai Buccaneer - increase sneak attack progression, swap the shipboard-specific stuff out for something that PCs might actually use, increase weapon proficiencies to useful weapons
Telchos Amazon - never seen one played, couldn't say.

Kai are supposed to be special and better than everyone else. They're directly touched by a god to fight against the Darklords. They're paladins, rangers, and psychic warriors all at the same time. But these fixes allow other folks to close the gap a bit.

Draz74
2009-12-04, 02:13 AM
AH, excellent! Somebody else who read the books!

I read a few of them many years ago ... I always thought they were the original source material for the Sunblade item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade). Yes?

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-12-04, 06:52 AM
I read a few of them many years ago ... I always thought they were the original source material for the Sunblade item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade). Yes?

Yep, that sounds exactly like the Sommerswerd.

Swordguy
2009-12-04, 07:06 AM
I'd call it more likely a case of parallel evolution. I'm positive there was an equivalent item back in AD&D days. Further, it's not like sun worship is an uncommon thing (the god Kai is god of the sun, recall, and kind of ditto for Pelor or even Apollo from back when D&D used real-world gods). A major magic item based on the power of the sun is going to have more or less the same set of general powers (shed light, be good-aligned or the equivalent) no matter where you go, and swords are by far the most common fantasy weapon.

I'm not saying it's NOT inspired by the Sommerswerd, mind you. I'm just not convinced it's a slam-dunk decision.

ericgrau
2009-12-04, 12:00 PM
I loved that book series and have to merely turn my head to see almost all of 1-20 on my shelf. I think I'm missing #20 and a random 1 or 2 I lost. I strongly recommend it to everyone based on childhood experience, and it looks like you can play it directly from that web site.

Haven't played the RPG though it sounds good. It's a shame there are no Shadikai wizards or similarly powered CSW. Grey Star had a lot of cool utility stuff.

EDIT: Oh wow there's 21-28 now. I've been out of the loop for a while.

Draz74
2009-12-04, 01:14 PM
I'd call it more likely a case of parallel evolution. I'm positive there was an equivalent item back in AD&D days.

There was. But the Lone Wolf books have been around for a while, too. At least, I was introduced to Lone Wolf before I was introduced to 2e AD&D.

ericgrau
2009-12-04, 08:39 PM
At the very least OD&D was before Lone Wolf, as it is a partial inspiration. Or maybe that was 1e.

TerrickTerran
2009-12-04, 10:00 PM
Long time fan of the books and owner of the RPG. Sadly, I've never got a chance to play it, but I would really love to do so. I don't worry so much about balance. As long as everyone has fun, it doesn't really matter that much.