PDA

View Full Version : Store up psionic focuses?!?!?



Sir.Swindle
2009-12-02, 10:38 PM
So I had this idea to buff the monk for a high psionic game I may be running.

What if monks were able to be to store up psionic focuses (foci?), say 1/level, to use in feats or whatever.

This is assuming I also either gave them Wild Talent or a PP progression and let them take psionic feats as bonus feats (perhaps increase their bonus feat number)

Did I miss some rediculous chain of broken feats or would they never find a use for them. What if I also let them gain multiple focuses per check (equal to their AC bonus or more?)

I normally wouldn't worry about it but I was going to convert Rokugon for the game setting and monks are at least semi-relevent.

note: I do not consider 5 2d10+2d6 touch attacks for 2 rounds at level 20 to be that broken.

long time reader like third post blah blah didn't bother in my other ones :smallsmile:

Hyooz
2009-12-02, 11:42 PM
You could always just give Monks a class feature that says "Do a ridiculous amount of damage X times a day" and not bother with breaking the beautiful psionic rules. You mostly seem concerned with giving monks the ability to nova, so you might as well. Wouldn't be too broken by your own standards and requires much less work and less soul-crushing abuse of psionic rules.

Draz74
2009-12-02, 11:43 PM
You could always just give Monks a class feature that says "Do a ridiculous amount of damage X times a day an encounter" and not bother with breaking the beautiful psionic rules. You mostly seem concerned with giving monks the ability to nova, so you might as well. Wouldn't be too broken by your own standards and requires much less work and less soul-crushing abuse of psionic rules.

Fixed that for you to be more in line with what his idea really would work out like.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-03, 12:02 AM
Would it really be that over powering though (perhaps 1/2level would be more reasonable) really I just want to give them a bit of a buff and give them a psionic feel without powers getting involved. This whole idea was based off of the sit quietly for a while and then break a brick wall theme.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-03, 12:04 AM
Would it really be that over powering though (perhaps 1/2level would be more reasonable) really I just want to give them a bit of a buff and give them a psionic feel without powers getting involved. This whole idea was based off of the sit quietly for a while and then break a brick wall theme.Psionic powers are the best part about psychic warriors monks.

Just give your monk a psionic race, then start taking feats. They're a decent buff on their own.

Hyooz
2009-12-03, 12:06 AM
If they got to a max of 3 focuses at 20th level, then that might be fine. Psionic foci are balanced around having ONE at any given time and needing a full-round action to regain it (outside of certain feats.)

Kylarra
2009-12-03, 12:07 AM
Psionic powers are the best part about psychic warriors monks.

Just give your monk a psionic race, then start taking feats. They're a decent buff on their own.Or standard monk/psy war w/ tashalatora for your psionic power.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-03, 12:20 AM
So like 3 or 4 Foci at level 20 and with Wild Talent free and Psionic feats on the bonus feat list? What if the extra foci went away out side of initiative so they can only start a fight with 1 focus. Explain it away with some mystic battle teachings or somthing.

Myrmex
2009-12-03, 03:52 AM
I really like this idea.
I've been toying with giving monks essentially a wisdom based version of the factotum's abilities, but with a little refinement, this would work WAY better.

I would simply give them, at first level, wild talent and 1 bonus psychic feat, and another psychic feat at levels 4, 8, and so on. IN ADDITION, they could have as many psychic focuses as they had points of wisdom bonus.

Also relevant to your interests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!%3F

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-03, 10:32 AM
Is there a bigger issue people are seeing with this other than Psionic Strike and Deep Impact (think those are the right names) combined with flurry of blows?

Would haveing a larger number of foci be better counteracted with only being able to spend Wis mod number of foci per round (per action? per feat?). Also I geuss I kinda forgot that since doing otherwise would be silly i'm assuming 1 feat application per attack. (no 20d6 extra damage form psionic strike)

I mean say the limit was per round. At level 20 you prolly have 5 or 6 wis mod by then (prolly 10 or 12 with real optimization). Lets say you flurry and use your 6 to make the first 3 +15 attacks touches and give them 2d6 extra damage. Thats 3x 2d10+2d6 stock, no size/items. Is that really too much? compared to rouge 10d6 SA or a Warlock blast?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-03, 11:55 AM
Is there a bigger issue people are seeing with this other than Psionic Strike and Deep Impact (think those are the right names) combined with flurry of blows?

So, the problem with these feats is that, even with the extra focuses, each one is "Expend focus for [stuff] on one attack." This would leave the hypothetical psionic monk in a slightly better boat than normal, but I can still see the leaks. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to either change the feats to work for 1 round (for everyone or just the monk, doesn't really matter).

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-03, 03:05 PM
The feats espend a focus to give a buff to one attack, thats the point behind me giving them multiple. It makes it so they can use 2 feats in one attack by useing 2 foci or buffing X of their attacks by spending X foci. (and maby have one left to run up a wall or somthing)

or are you trying to say all of your psionic feats are triggered when you expend your focus? Thats not how I read it but I don't know if thats how it's commonly interpreted.

Nero24200
2009-12-03, 05:26 PM
So, the problem with these feats is that, even with the extra focuses, each one is "Expend focus for [stuff] on one attack."

I've got to ask, am I missing something with Psionic Focus? When I read the entry, it says that expending focus isn't an action, but part of another action. So I've always interprated this to mean that if you expend it for a full-attack action, it's benifits apply for the entire full-attack action? Yet the above seems to be the common interpretation.

Is there text I'm missing that's elsewhere in the book or errata?

jokey665
2009-12-03, 05:32 PM
I've got to ask, am I missing something with Psionic Focus? When I read the entry, it says that expending focus isn't an action, but part of another action. So I've always interprated this to mean that if you expend it for a full-attack action, it's benifits apply for the entire full-attack action? Yet the above seems to be the common interpretation.

Is there text I'm missing that's elsewhere in the book or errata?

When you expend your focus for an attack, it only applies to that single attack. A full-attack action is not one attack, it is 2 or more attacks.


Your attack with a melee weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.

Never does it say it applies to more than one attack, which is what a full-attack is made up of. It's extremely clear with no room for it to add to more than one attack.


If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Nero24200
2009-12-03, 05:48 PM
When you expend your focus for an attack, it only applies to that single attack. A full-attack action is not one attack, it is 2 or more attacks. Er...but my confusion comes from the fact that, according to the XPH, you expend it "as part of an action", and a full-attack action is an action.

I guess the singular use of the word "Attack" in the feat entry, but is that really the only text that implies this?

jokey665
2009-12-03, 05:51 PM
Er...but my confusion comes from the fact that, according to the XPH, you expend it "as part of an action", and a full-attack action is an action.

I guess the singular use of the word "Attack" in the feat entry, but is that really the only text that implies this?

You expend it as part of your full-attack action, and it applies to one attack out of your full attack. What's not to get?

Nero24200
2009-12-03, 05:55 PM
You expend it as part of your full-attack action, and it applies to one attack out of your full attack. What's not to get?
Well...you only gain the benifits whilst "expending your focus", so when I read that expending a focus is "part of an action", it implies that the benifits are granted for the entire action.

erikun
2009-12-03, 05:58 PM
Deep Impact et al. only apply to one attack. Your theoretical Psychic Monk would need 5 psionic focuses at level 20 to flurry and apply the feat to all of them. The second problem is that, even with Psionic Meditation, you're only making one attack a round anyways. Or only attacking every other round.

I certainly wouldn't see a problem with giving the Monk the Psionic Talent feat for free. It gives them some new options, such as Up The Walls and Psionic Charge.

As for a better "fix", allow the Monk to use Deep Impact-like feats to apply to all attacks when using a flurry (only). Giving them multiple focuses just sounds like a way to abuse actual psionic powers, such as a Monk/Psion or Psionic Fist.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-03, 09:54 PM
I kinda of like the applying the feats to all attacks in a flurry idea.

But how abusable would have more foci be if you have to put multiple levels in monk to get them? sure you can stack a few meta-psionics but you lose at least 2 caster levels (most likely more based on earlier posts).

The Glyphstone
2009-12-03, 11:14 PM
It's an interesting idea and very hard to abuse if you tied the number of foci storable to the number of monk levels (i.e., 1 per 4 levels or something), but for the sort of effects it would have (Monk hits a lot/does a lot of damage once per fight), I think you'd be better off making smaller changes to improve the monk overall. Bring it up to full BAB, for instance, and/or let it use Wisdom in place of Strength for Attacks/Damage. Little things like that, it gets the same end result without you having to go through the work of splicing an entirely different rule system into the monk, and chewing up even more of its precious feats.

erikun
2009-12-03, 11:39 PM
Multiple focuses are very useful for metapsionics. The more focuses a character can have, and the easier they are to regain, the more you can "stack" metapsionics onto one power the stronger it will be. A simple power, such as Energy Ray, will deal 20d6 damage for 20 PP. An Empowered Twin Energy Ray would deal 36d6 damage for the same 20 PP, at the cost of two focuses. A Monk 4/Psion 16 isn't overpowering, but isn't terrible either.

A few more things:

Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation) allows regaining focus as a move action, rather than a full-round action. A Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalAffinity) is handy because of the Psicrystal Containment feat, which allows storing a second focus.

Honestly, giving the Monk multiple focuses sounds like a complex way to solve a simple problem. You want the Monk to use Psionic Weapon/Deep Impact on a full attack? Then allow the Monk to do so. My recommendation to only allow it on flurry is to prevent everyone from taking a Monk dip for the ability, and to prevent the Monk from not having it when he may need it.

--

[edit] Afterthoughts

If you're looking at fixing the Monk, here's a few suggestions I have.

Ki Focus (+1) every three levels, maxing out at Ki Focus (+5) at level 15. This will help with hitting enemies, along with overcoming DR and resistances like incorporeal - one of the big problems for Monks.

Replace Ki Focus (Lawful) with Ki Focus (alignment). Thus, the attacks of a LG Monk would be both Lawful and Good. Again, helping to bypass DR for demons and such.

Allowing WIS to apply to attack rolls, much like Weapon Finesse. I'm not too sure about applying damage, as between the multiple Ki Focus (+1) and using Psionic Weapon on a full flurry, they might be fine in the damage department. Well, for a melee character.

Allow the Monk to wear any armor with a 0 Armor Check Penality and still be able to use their abilities.

Between that and your psionic focus changes, they should fare well enough compared to Barbarians and Rogues.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 12:15 AM
I was wondering when some one would bring the usual monk fixes up. I was also wondering why no smart ass told me to just re-fluff an unarmed Swordsage.(I know i am basically doing it just with psi feats instead of manuvers)

I might consider some additional fixes for "balance", assuming I put a limit on foci per round so they could would use foci for about 3 to 4 rounds of combat and I gave more Psionic/monk bonus feats.

-would a full bab be op if you assume they almost always use touch attacks (deep impact)
-would Wis being added to hit/damage and psionic bonus feats be too strong for Psychic warriors dipping into the class?
-how does a psychic warrior bonus monk/psionic feat progression look assuming the extra psionic options?
-also does Soul Knife count as manifester levels? if the answer is no then neither does my monk. what does 16 PP get you?
-to all my haters (or maby just me) I know there are differently named feats for unarmed attacks

BTW: the answer to not refluffing ToB is that it sets a precedent for the whole game making players wonder why they can't make druids who's minds are attuned with nature and the like. It destroys the feel of an ALL psionic game. had the same issue with my furry (anthropomorphic) game.

[edit] ur edit sliped in before my post
I also like the ki strike changes sound almost necessary
and which set of focus changes each or my posts put forth a change to the system :smallfrown:

erikun
2009-12-04, 12:49 AM
To answer your questions in order:

1.) Even if they're only using touch attacks, they would only do so every other round. They'll be hitting most stuff regardless of BAB, so that would not be overpowered. After all, they may want to use Psionic Weapon instead for more damage, or just don't have the time to regain focus.

2.) The Psychic Warrior issue was why I suggested basing it off the Monk's flurry: You can only use Monk weapons for Flurry of Fists, so the PsyWar can't flurry their greatsword or warhammer. Well, technically there are feats which allow you to treat specific weapons as monk weapons, but if the PsyWar is going to that much trouble, I would let him.

I recommended WIS to attacks, in place of STR, which would not be overpowered. I'm not so sure about WIS to damage, for obvious PsyWar/Ardent/Cleric dips. Perhaps make it a general feat, like Weapon Finesse? (or Zen Archery)

3.) A Monk/Psionic Fist generally enters at level 6 (so Monk 5/PsiFist X) which only has 1 extra attack and still a -1 penality while flurrying. A Monk 10/Psionic Fist 10 would eliminate the penality at level 19, and wouldn't get the 5th flurry attack until 21.

Honestly, you're likely to see more foci-abuse with Psionic Fist than with a Monk/Psion, simply because it's easier to enter. Something like quickened Astral Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) or other utility powers while full attacking.

4.) Soulknife does not have any manifester levels, and does not add manifester levels to another class.

The Practiced Manifester feat grants +4 manifester level, up to your HD. So a Monk 4/Psion 16 could spend up to 20 PP. There are other problems with doing so though, such as no 9th level powers.

-- Finally, don't worry too much about things changing a lot right now. We're pretty much brainstorming, just throwing out possibilities and what they mean. Once you've seen what works and potential problems, you can decide on what is the best monk fix for your campaign.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 03:53 PM
Flurry of Blows with full bab just useing stock rules would put you from +20/+15/+10/+5 normal to +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 with flurry, thats a lot of really accurate attacks! Less than a DW ranger but he doesn't wield large bastard swords (usually)

Would somthing like -(1/4 monk level) to all attacks with flurry be super counter productive? I.E. +15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0 it's still better than +20/+15/+10/+5 or not really? What about -(1/4 monk level) to the extra attacks +20/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5

I set the think as a function of level to not over nerf early levels.

This is all still assuming my Psionic Focus monk with feats apply to an entire flurry.

my current model for the Foci is 1 extra focus at 5 and every 5 levels there after (3 total at 10 ect.)

Also battle meditation new ability: Monk may regain 1 focus 1 action type faster then normal after useing a full attack, Flurry of Blows, or manifesting a power (max 1 swift action) What do you think?

erikun
2009-12-04, 04:06 PM
Yes, full BAB flurry results in a lot of accurate attacks. Better than TWF or Manyshot, as the extra attacks are at the full bonus.

+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 (full BAB flurry)
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (TWF)
+12/+12/+12/+12 (4 arrow manyshot)

Giving the monk penalities for flurry would be counterproductive. The monk already has a -2 to hit when flurrying, which eventually vanishes by level 11. +15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0 may be better than +20/+15/+10/+5, but is basically what they already have. You're just giving them full BAB then immediately taking it away.

What would be the point of a high-level monk having 5 focuses if spending one applies to all attacks?

Use a power (standard), regain a focus (swift), use a power (quickened > move)... easy two powers a round. I'm not sure that's as good of an idea.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 05:11 PM
+0 is still an attack albeit one that will miss (unless they use deep impact).
5 foci makes it so they can Deep Impact, Psionic Weapon and Wounding Attack and do a it again the next round.

Also you can do 2 swift actions in a round no matter what? I didn't think you could even with down grading or is the no double quickened thing a different rule? If it's not the case then there's no point in having the manifest a power clause in there.