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Nich_Critic
2009-12-02, 11:23 PM
I'm currently a necropolitan star elf Dread Necro 4 in a party of ECL 6 (lost one level due to death, and another due to undeath). When I made the character, the plan was to take Dread Necro 8/DreadWitch (HoH) 4/Nighmare Spinner(CMage) 3/filler 5 and be a fear master. However, upon further thought, I'm rethinking those choices.

First off, the Nightmare spinner. It's a very illusion focused prc which for starters gives me immunity to fear (redundant, I already have it), lets me apply fear effects to illusions (but I don't have many that qualify), and gives me an extra slot for illusions (as above). The only exciting part, for me, was that at level 3 when my enemy is subject to a fear effect, they take 1d6 damage per level of fear that they take. This means that if I escalate a fear effect from shaken to panicked they take 6d6 damage on top of dropping their weapons and fleeing.

The problem is that 6d6 damage at level 15 is weak. Even if it applies to nearly every spell I'm casting, that's still the best effect, going down to 3d6 if I only frighten them, or 1d6 if they're shaken. Also, some of my best spells elevate to panicked or frightened skipping steps, and half the damage.

Next is the dread witch, which seems to be a perfect fear class, and would be if not for my race. First, they gain +1 DC to fear spells and a boost to fear saves, but I lose a caster level cancelling the DC, and I'm immune to fear. The next ability is awesome, giving +1-3 CL when hit by a fear effect (shaken is 1, etc) regardless of save. However, I'm immune to fear, so I can't benefit. After that I gain the token ability to make any of my spells a fear spell once a day, and then I get delay fear which works on enemies (nice for stacking effects) or myself if I wasn't immune. Finally at level 4, the only reason I would take this class, I get to pierce fear immunity.

At level 4 dread witch I might be able to use my abilities. If that's the case, then yes, it's good, but I need to wait 4 levels getting practically no features before becoming good. However, I'm immune to fear since I'm undead, and it's unclear whether the dread witch can pierce that (the example is a paladin). For example, I don't think it would work on anything mindless.

If not, I'm taking 4 levels and losing a caster level essentially for delay fear on others and pierce fear immunity, which doesn't help me against most things that are immune anyways (if it doesn't work on me there's no hope for mind blank, etc.)

So my question is, would the nightmare spinner/dread witch classes be worth taking in my predicament (If I can use the features of the latter and if not)?

If not, what other prc's could you recommend for boosting fear/necromancy effects? Keep in mind that I would like to qualify before level 9. Or would it just be better to go straight dread necro, mostly for the DR and advanced learning options?

Hyooz
2009-12-02, 11:44 PM
Definitely make sure you take up to 5th level DN to get the Fear Aura. That much I'm sure is obvious to you. Then max out Intimidate and try to pick up the skill trick Never Outnumbered (CS). Between your spells, intimidating to make things shaken, then popping fear aura (which, RAW, you can just use over and over until whatever it is fails a save, but nobody really plays that way) you might be fear focused enough already, if you boost your DCs high enough (which is a big concern for DN's anyway.)

Dread Witch would be the PrC to start with for a heavy fear focus. Nightmare Spinnner isn't bad, but with your spell list, it'll lack a lot of utility. I don't know what contention your race has with Dread Witch, so eh.

Optimystik
2009-12-02, 11:46 PM
Dread Necro/Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch is a lot of redundancy. Immunity to Fear turns off many of Dread Witch's abilities, and both of them can apply fear to illusions. Dread Witch also loses a caster level, and it sounds like you're behind the party as it is. Dread Necro gets the same fear aura as Dread Witch as well.

Instead, I would drop the Witch and go with Master Specialist (CM) and choose Illusion. +2 to will save DCs, permanent concealment, and free Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials. You'll be able to more easily scare enemies, and do so from hiding without being discovered. It's also 10/10 casting and you gain bonuses to your CL. You'll have to take a level of Wizard to make it work though.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-02, 11:54 PM
Dread Necro/Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch is a lot of redundancy. Immunity to Fear turns off many of Dread Witch's abilities, and both of them can apply fear to illusions. Dread Witch also loses a caster level, and it sounds like you're behind the party as it is. Dread Necro gets the same fear aura as Dread Witch as well.

Instead, I would drop the Witch and go with Master Specialist (CM) and choose Illusion. +2 to will save DCs, permanent concealment, and free Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials. You'll be able to more easily scare enemies, and do so from hiding without being discovered. It's also 10/10 casting and you gain bonuses to your CL. You'll have to take a level of Wizard to make it work though.

This works less well than at first glance, since Master Specialist can only improve wizard caster levels.

Hyooz
2009-12-02, 11:58 PM
Dread Necros don't qualify for Master Specialist, so yeah, he'd need to take a level of Wizard, pushing his fear aura back to 6th ECL and only advance wizard casting. Also, why specialize in illusion? Especially as a Dread Necro base, that just seems silly.

Yeah, Dread Witch loses a caster level, but in the long run, one won't be a huge deal. You can do a fair fear focused pure DN with the right feats and skill investments. Grab the feat from Draconomicon that gives you a frightful presence, among some others. Pump up intimidate and you're basically guaranteed at least shaken. Mix that up with Fear and your amazing Fear Aura (which you want to use last, since it stacks fear effects where most stuff doesn't, shaken -> frightened -> petrified)

Optimystik
2009-12-03, 12:06 AM
Eh, it's late, I didn't think it through well enough :smalltongue: but the three classes he wants to combine definitely overlap too much to my tastes.

Fatespinner is always a good class to pad out some levels, and can develop a "spinner" theme of some kind. The roll manipulation can help out a lot with overcoming fear saves.

Nich_Critic
2009-12-03, 02:23 AM
I thought about fate spinner, but the 1 use of each ability per day thing put me off it.

There are some really nice spells I can pick up with Advanced learning if I continue with my DN levels, including one that extends the potency and range of my aura.

However, the fear aura can't be used over and over, since if the enemy makes a save they're immune for 24 hours. And it won't stack with itself, as with any fear.

I am still considering the Dread witch, but only if I can eventually restore the class features. If I can, that means the number of enemies I can cause fear increases by a lot. If I can't, then it's not going to come up often enough to matter anyways.

Edit: I'm considering the anima mage over either of them. If I take a level of binder at 6 and the improved binding feat, I can get in, and then if I take it to level 18 (with three additional DN levels snuck in there. I still want to take DN 8 for advanced learning) I get binding as a level 11 binder in addition to casting as a level 19 DN. Worthwhile? I still have to look at what it looks like on a level by level basis, and see how it compares to pure DN.

Edit again: I can't take it until level 9 because of the metamagic feat requirement.