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arguskos
2009-12-03, 01:55 AM
I have a question for you fine folks. Alchemical items suck. They suck hard. They do very little, are expendable, fairly pricey, and don't scale for crap. BUT! I love them so.

My question is this: do you have any fixes that you have implemented in your games, for better or for worse? If so, please, inform me of them.

Also, for clarification, let me explain that I'm not talking about anything magical. We're talking about Alchemist's Fire, Acid, Thunderstones. That sorta thing. :smallwink:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-03, 02:25 AM
If they're too cheap then they become dominant and ubiquitous in combat. The aristocrat would become a very powerful level 1 character indeed, lobbing tanglefoot bags and alchemist fires at will.

arguskos
2009-12-03, 02:28 AM
If they're too cheap then they become dominant and ubiquitous in combat. The aristocrat would become a very powerful level 1 character indeed, lobbing tanglefoot bags and alchemist fires at will.
The Aristocrat is recommended as not being permitted for PC use as well. Just sayin'.

However, yes, making it too cheap is an issue. What marks "too cheap" though?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-03, 02:35 AM
That's tough to say. First level characters probably shouldn't start out with an assortment of alchemical items, but maybe a vial of alchemist's fire here and there would be all right.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 02:39 AM
My rule of thumb is "one hundred gp per level (or HD) of the character the item is designed to negate". That tends to keep people from buying mass quantities of said items and spamming them, but still keeps it cheap enough that PCs are willing to break out the expendable item in an emergency. An item that inconveniences but doesn't negate the PC is half to 2/3rds that value, depending on how annoying the effect may be.

So (for example an with made-up numbers), if a generic 5th level character is assumed to have a REF save of +10 (and average check result of a 30), an item that negates a character completely should have a save DC of 30, and cost 500gp. An item with the same save DC that only reduces the PCs movement rate might only be 250gp. An item that completely negate the PC but has a lower save DC (say, 25 instead of 30) may only cost 250gp as well, since it's far less likely to take effect. An alchemical substance that's designed to negate a 20th level character with a +40 save is going to have a save DC of 50 and cost 2,000gp.

Major alchemical stuff that duplicates high-level spell effects or out kills people tend to not be craftable in my D&D games. I find that when PCs are given the ability to craft these sort of things, they use them like a bazooka to be used against every possible target at every opportunity. And I dislike that style of play.

Finally, crafting DCs are usually equal to the save DC, unless it's an especially nasty status effect of bizzare thing the PC wants (then it's usually +5 over the save DC). Taking 20 is, obviously, not allowable.

Does that make sense?

Eloel
2009-12-03, 02:40 AM
I've searched for a way of getting them cheap enough with high level characters. Something like Endless Quiver, only spawning Alchemist's Fire & Acid (maybe somehow unsellable), for some price.

Needless to say, I didn't find anything useful.

arguskos
2009-12-03, 02:44 AM
I've searched for a way of getting them cheap enough with high level characters. Something like Endless Quiver, only spawning Alchemist's Fire & Acid (maybe somehow unsellable), for some price.

Needless to say, I didn't find anything useful.
I actually just homebrewed something about it in the Homebrew forum. :smallwink:

I plan on making a comprehensive fix for Alchemical substances, but it might be good to have some houserules on hand for ideas and the like.

Belobog
2009-12-03, 03:06 AM
I've searched for a way of getting them cheap enough with high level characters. Something like Endless Quiver, only spawning Alchemist's Fire & Acid (maybe somehow unsellable), for some price.

Needless to say, I didn't find anything useful.

It wouldn't be too hard to make an item like that yourself; if you made it so that vials created by the effect disappear within a minute or so after use, and limit it to one draw a round, you probably wouldn't be able to sell them anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-03, 03:06 AM
One of the things I did was make different sorts of alchemical substances:

Vial of Acid suitable for melting a lock: priced about the same as a scroll of Knock, only requiring a Craft (alchemy) check to use properly instead of a UMD check.

Then there is the Fougasse... a rifle-like weapon containing flammables, with the 'muzzle' capped with wax. Light the end, point, and the flammables erupt, aimed by the 'barrel', doing xd6 fire damage on a RTA or 15' line (Ref/half). Cost varies with how many d6's it does. The 'gun' has a price. Then every 'charge' has a price. It's a one-shot weapon, it take a full hour to 'reload', including putting the wax cap on. If you take any fire damage, make a save or have it blow up in your face (as per Necklace of Fireballs). Price scales with damage output, similar to one-shot magic item costs.

There's the Petard. It does xd6, depending on size. However, it also weighs close to 50 lbs, and is considered a Medium sized object as far as carrying it around, and the fuse is... variable. Roll 1d4 for number of rounds until it goes off. If you roll a 1, it goes off in your hand, and you take the damage as well, no save. You also roll 1d10, and if you roll a 1, the powder is a dud, and nothing happens. If you roll a 10, then it is delayed 1d6 minutes.

As far as saving throws? Shouldn't be too simple to fix.

You use something like Power * DC modifier * base as your pricing schedule.

So, something does 5d6 DC 15, it does your base 5*base, but if you want it to have a DC20, it would have 5*5*base... so you can increase the DC's on your saves, but it'll cost ya...

Milskidasith
2009-12-03, 03:12 AM
My rule of thumb is "one hundred gp per level (or HD) of the character the item is designed to negate". That tends to keep people from buying mass quantities of said items and spamming them, but still keeps it cheap enough that PCs are willing to break out the expendable item in an emergency. An item that inconveniences but doesn't negate the PC is half to 2/3rds that value, depending on how annoying the effect may be.

So (for example an with made-up numbers), if a generic 5th level character is assumed to have a REF save of +10 (and average check result of a 30), an item that negates a character completely should have a save DC of 30, and cost 500gp. An item with the same save DC that only reduces the PCs movement rate might only be 250gp. An item that completely negate the PC but has a lower save DC (say, 25 instead of 30) may only cost 250gp as well, since it's far less likely to take effect. An alchemical substance that's designed to negate a 20th level character with a +40 save is going to have a save DC of 50 and cost 2,000gp.

Major alchemical stuff that duplicates high-level spell effects or out kills people tend to not be craftable in my D&D games. I find that when PCs are given the ability to craft these sort of things, they use them like a bazooka to be used against every possible target at every opportunity. And I dislike that style of play.

Finally, crafting DCs are usually equal to the save DC, unless it's an especially nasty status effect of bizzare thing the PC wants (then it's usually +5 over the save DC). Taking 20 is, obviously, not allowable.

Does that make sense?

What it looks like to me is that you've got items that are essentially more expensive scrolls at lower levels, and slightly cheaper scrolls at higher levels, with massively higher save DCs. Basically... they're a straight up improvement on already good and abusably cheap magic items. At level 20, I'd have no problem dropping 3,000 GP to throw an item of "roll 20 or die" at the BBEG. If players can't buy items, but you price them so cheaply... there's little point in having them at all.

Shademan
2009-12-03, 03:24 AM
In one game I DM'ed a player came from a nation that kept kobolds as slaves, and he could comandeer quite a lot of them. He crunched some numbers and found out that he could get enough alchemist fire outta their crafting to melt the poles.

hm.... anyways! just make up new alchemical items. quicksilver bombs! electro-nets! and don't forget the whatstheirnames? the small containers you can put on your weapon.

Emmerask
2009-12-03, 03:28 AM
I have a question for you fine folks. Alchemical items suck. They suck hard. They do very little, are expendable, fairly pricey, and don't scale for crap. BUT! I love them so.

My question is this: do you have any fixes that you have implemented in your games, for better or for worse? If so, please, inform me of them.

Also, for clarification, let me explain that I'm not talking about anything magical. We're talking about Alchemist's Fire, Acid, Thunderstones. That sorta thing. :smallwink:

They suck? I like them very much for early to low mid levels. They are a bit pricey if you throw them around for every tiny enemy but if you use them at the right time it does increase your chance of survival :smallcool:
(Weapon capsules being my favorite alchemical item for low levels :smalltongue:)

ericgrau
2009-12-03, 03:35 AM
Miko and Haley would disagree.

And with quick draw you can full attack with splash weapons, touch attacks mind you, which is always nice.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 04:13 AM
What it looks like to me is that you've got items that are essentially more expensive scrolls at lower levels, and slightly cheaper scrolls at higher levels, with massively higher save DCs. Basically... they're a straight up improvement on already good and abusably cheap magic items. At level 20, I'd have no problem dropping 3,000 GP to throw an item of "roll 20 or die" at the BBEG. If players can't buy items, but you price them so cheaply... there's little point in having them at all.

You didn't read it closely. It's a "roll a 10 or better or die (or be negated, which amounts to the same thing, really)" under that system, which is far better odds than most spellcasters offer with their save-or-die/suck spells. And that's the best odds it offers - the only other option is to reduce the DC, which makes them even less effective. It's still less powerful than spells. And in my experience, most players will balk at risking 2,000 gold at a 50/50 chance. They'll still go for spells that are more reliable, don't miss, and can't be broken or sundered.

Fiery Diamond
2009-12-03, 04:22 AM
You didn't read it closely. It's a "roll a 10 or better or die (or be negated, which amounts to the same thing, really)" under that system, which is far better odds than most spellcasters offer with their save-or-die/suck spells. And that's the best odds it offers - the only other option is to reduce the DC, which makes them even less effective. It's still less powerful than spells. And in my experience, most players will balk at risking 2,000 gold at a 50/50 chance. They'll still go for spells that are more reliable, don't miss, and can't be broken or sundered.

No, you didn't read closely enough-- 3000GP, not 2000GP, making it 20 or die.

Swordguy
2009-12-03, 04:39 AM
No, you didn't read closely enough-- 3000GP, not 2000GP, making it 20 or die.

Ah, I see where the confusion lies. Like any other part of the crafting rules in d20, it becomes the DMs job to limit what the PCs can create at any given time. You'll note that the rules are based in "what you want to use it against", not "what DC do you want to generate". That's an important and critical difference. What that means in practice is that you aren't getting to make DC 50 alchemical items when you're level 5, because you aren't going to be engaging targets that require a DC 50 substance to have a 50/50 chance of hitting them. You'll be making substances with DCs in the 15-20 range at that level.

In short, players don't get to do whatever they want, just because the rules for it exist.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-03, 05:34 AM
By RAW, you can sneak attack with some Alchemical items. It isn't much but it helps.

I Could honestly see a system for improvement by crafting. Say the higher of 5g or 1/5 the base price to either add an extra D6, change the splash to a D4 or up any saves from the item by 2. Max value of improvements = base price and needs an additional DC20 craft check per enhancement that scales up the more you add. No take 10/20 and failure makes it blow up for max damage in your face.

Prime32
2009-12-03, 06:03 AM
By RAW, you can sneak attack with some Alchemical items. It isn't much but it helps.Particuarly when you sneak attack, say, a white dragon with a flask of alchemist's fire, since your sneak attack damage will be fire damage.



I would create a Craft Alchemical Item feat which is like the Brew Potion feat, except that items have no prereqs to create (beyond substituting Craft (alchemy) ranks for caster level), are faster to create, cost twice as much and are nonmagical.

Cyclocone
2009-12-03, 06:09 AM
Yeah, flasking Rogues get decent mileage out of Acid Flasks.

Although, granted, they'd probably appreciate lower prices.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-03, 10:38 AM
Ah, I see where the confusion lies. Like any other part of the crafting rules in d20, it becomes the DMs job to limit what the PCs can create at any given time. You'll note that the rules are based in "what you want to use it against", not "what DC do you want to generate". That's an important and critical difference. What that means in practice is that you aren't getting to make DC 50 alchemical items when you're level 5, because you aren't going to be engaging targets that require a DC 50 substance to have a 50/50 chance of hitting them. You'll be making substances with DCs in the 15-20 range at that level.

In short, players don't get to do whatever they want, just because the rules for it exist.Yeah, that's the sort of thing I object to. Presumably, there are other people crafting these items? Then presumably, there is people selling these items for cash because people are greedy. PCs have a lot of cash. If no one in universe is selling the items, there had better be a reason or it strains verisimilitude. Even then, you need a better way of limiting what DCs the PCs can craft them with than 'what do you intend to use it against'. First, because that's a limitation that makes no sense in-universe, and second, because then they'll just say "I'm making it in case [psychotic PC] pisses off a CR 15 Dragon or something", and then use it in lower level battles because they have it.

Rake
2009-12-03, 12:14 PM
Pathfinder has the 'Alchemist' class coming out in a few months...

Harperfan7
2009-12-03, 04:40 PM
Alchemists fire

50gp 2d6 DC 17 Splash 2
125gp 3d6 DC 19 3
212.5gp 4d6 DC 21 4
531gp 5d6 DC 23 5

Acid

25gp 2d6 Splash 2
62.5gp 3d6 3
156gp 4d6 4
390gp 5d6 5

Signmaker
2009-12-03, 08:39 PM
I have a question for you fine folks. Alchemical items suck. They suck hard. They do very little, are expendable, fairly pricey, and don't scale for crap. BUT! I love them so.

My upper-level rogue that purchases epicly augmented flasks would highly disagree with you.

Alcopop
2009-12-03, 10:03 PM
What about a flask wielding scout?

Would the splash damage trigger skirmish as well as the main damage?