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Talbot
2009-12-03, 03:14 AM
I'm planning a MAD intensive character who will need solid scores in Int, Cha, Wis, and Dex, and preferably Con (Str can go hang). I've never bothered with LA before, as it seems like a huge pain, but there's no 0 LA way to get bonuses to both Int and Cha (the two stats I'd really like to be obscenely high), even if I roll well enough for everything else. So, assuming I can find a palettable +X LA race that I can buy-off in time,does the Playground think it's worth it?

Kylarra
2009-12-03, 03:16 AM
I'm planning a MAD intensive character who will need solid scores in Int, Cha, Wis, and Dex, and preferably Con (Str can go hang). I've never bothered with LA before, as it seems like a huge pain, but there's no 0 LA way to get bonuses to both Int and Cha (the two stats I'd really like to be obscenely high), even if I roll well enough for everything else. So, assuming I can find a palettable +X LA race that I can buy-off in time,does the Playground think it's worth it?What exactly are you even trying to do?

Starscream
2009-12-03, 03:18 AM
Well, more information would help but in general, yes, LA buyoff is generally a good idea. If the DM allows it, it's pretty much the one way to play some of the more exotic races/templates without taking a severe (or as severe at least) blow to your power.

Kylarra
2009-12-03, 03:20 AM
Well, as long as you stick to LA 1 or 2 it's generally worth the hit in the long run, though the short term may hurt a bit, particularly if you're a caster.

kamikasei
2009-12-03, 03:25 AM
How does your DM dole out XP? Does he follow the by-the-book method that means you get a little more if you're behind the rest of the party in levels, resulting in you catching up over time? Or does he just say "okay, you have enough to level now", so that you would permanently be a level or two behind the rest of the party?

Talbot
2009-12-03, 03:27 AM
I'm planning to play a Private Detective, skill-heavy Factotum. Reasons I need the higher stats:

1) Int, obviously, for Factotum, and also for Skills.
2) Cha as, being a big fan of the Raymond Chandler/Humphrey Bogart school of Private Eyes, I'm going to be relying a lot on Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy.
3) Dex for Initiative, as well as for the stealthier skills.
4) Wis for Spot/Listen/etc., which are kind of crucial PI abilities. Plus, I try to RP my characters in accordance with their stats and I want the hard-bitten, well-traveled, wise but bitter flavor of PI.
5) Con so he doesn't die instantly.
6) On a relevant side-note, the rest of the party includes a pretty optimized Duskblade, a reasonably optimized (and therefore still brutal) Cleric, and an under-optimized Ranger. More importantly, the DM is liberal about giving out "boons", which increase character's power substantially, during certain story events. These boons range from feats, to Magic Items, to ridiculous abilities (for example, he gave a Barbarian who's not longer in the party free 10 ft reach with no downside at Level 3). This character, planned to replace my current character when he eventually/inevitably dies, won't have the benefits of X levels of stored up boons, so some solid stats would help to keep him relevant.
7) Side note the second, Factotum has crappy saves, so some solid mods in save-relevant abilities will also help.


Edit: Regarding XP, so far we've been leveling more or less together, but he does award different XP to individual characters as circumstance demands, as well as bonus XP for good RP. I believe, although can't be certain, he would/does award XP at least somewhat based on level.

BooNL
2009-12-03, 03:38 AM
Well, factotums get their Int mod to initiative, so Dex shouldn't have to be extremely high. A 14 might be enough.

I believe there is a feat that makes Spot/Listen/Search Int based instead of Wis, can't tell you the name though.

Also, the classic Noire detectives also made heavy use of their fist and got beat up a lot. So at least some Str/unarmed strike, could be useful.

Edit: if all you need from Cha is skills, you can afford to keep that one at 14 or 16 as well. Skill bonusses are good, but you can get them better and cheaper. Consider investing in a good Cloak of Charisma.

The way I see it, you need a minimum of:
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 18>
Wis: 10 (if wis skills are moved over to Int)
Cha: 14>

You can do this on a good roll or a high point buy. If you can find a good LA +1 race, you might be able to buff some stats up, but I wouldn't go out of your way to find one.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 03:50 AM
I believe there is a feat that makes Spot/Listen/Search Int based instead of Wis, can't tell you the name though.

Also, the classic Noire detectives also made heavy use of their fist and got beat up a lot. So at least some Str/unarmed strike, could be useful.

Edit: if all you need from Cha is skills, you can afford to keep that one at 14 or 16 as well. Skill bonusses are good, but you can get them better and cheaper. Consider investing in a good Cloak of Charisma.

The way I see it, you need a minimum of:
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 18>
Wis: 10 (if wis skills are moved over to Int)
Cha: 14>



Hmmm.... well, yes, ideally I'd have high Str as well, but asking for 6 high stats just seems excessive. I'd really like the Wis to stay high for RP reasons, and as mentioned I'd like at least decent saves for Fort and Will... I'm looking for something with bonuses similar/comparable to Drow...only I don't want Drow (personal preference; I'm one of the many who's sick of good guy Drow, plus the penalty is counter productive).

But something in the neighborhood +4 Int, +2 X, +2 Y for an LA of two or three would probably be ideal, and I could buy that off by what? Level 6? .

BooNL
2009-12-03, 03:58 AM
You can only buy off LA every couple of levels (I think every 6?). So LA +3 would only be bought off at lvl 18. Yes, it's a really wonky system and I hate it...

Anyway, you could just pick drow, only refluff it. You wouldn't *have* to play a drow, only use it's bonusses. How about a lesser drow, or even a lesser tiefling (I think they have +2 dex and int) for LA +0?

Have you checked the Crystal Keep for races yet?

Also, cliché private eyes probably should have a low wisdom, but most have taken the Iron Will feat. How classic is the picture of the alcoholic, divorced detective who's life is in shambles mostly through their own fault. Doesn't really sound very wise to me...

Myrmex
2009-12-03, 04:18 AM
The way I see it, you need a minimum of:
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 18>
Wis: 10 (if wis skills are moved over to Int)
Cha: 14>

You can do this on a good roll or a high point buy. If you can find a good LA +1 race, you might be able to buff some stats up, but I wouldn't go out of your way to find one.

Bump the 18 int down to 16, and put con & wis up to 12.
Get an item familiar at level 6. Or just get a regular 'ole familiar. They get your skill ranks, which means they can give you +2 aid another bonuses.

You could do good cop bad cop with a talking raven.

Also consider middle age for +1 mental stats, -1 physical stats. Most detectives tend to be a little older.


Also, cliché private eyes probably should have a low wisdom, but most have taken the Iron Will feat. How classic is the picture of the alcoholic, divorced detective who's life is in shambles mostly through their own fault. Doesn't really sound very wise to me...

Sounds like a lifestyle choice, unrelated to ability scores.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-03, 10:44 AM
Insightful Reflexes adds your Int to Ref instead of Dexterity. CAdv.
Keen Intellect adds your Int to Will, Spot, Listen, and a couple others. Dragon 318.
Factotum gets you Int to init.
X Stat to Y Bonus. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872642/NEW_X_stat_to_Y_bonus) This thread is golden for making SAD characters.

Duke of URL
2009-12-03, 10:50 AM
You can only buy off LA every couple of levels (I think every 6?). So LA +3 would only be bought off at lvl 18. Yes, it's a really wonky system and I hate it...

The Unearthed Arcana rules allow you to buy off your next level of LA after 3 * current LA class levels.

So, for LA +3, you can buy off 1 level at class level 9th, the second at 15th, and the last at 18th.

For LA +2, the buyoff levels are 6th and 9th.

For LA +1, the buyoff level is 3rd.

LA +4 through +6 can only buy off a single level pre-epic (12th, 15th, and 18th, respectively).

Douglas
2009-12-03, 10:51 AM
X Stat to Y Bonus. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872642/NEW_X_stat_to_Y_bonus) This thread is golden for making SAD characters.
For the same thing with much better formatting and possibly more material included, check this forum's Notable Threads sticky.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 12:41 PM
Looked at the thread, may be able to live without Con (there's a feat that lets my Int determine my HP per level? Sign me up!). Would still love some kind of 2-3 stat boost... ideally on a template rather than a race, so I can snag that human bonus feat.

I'm hesitant to go middle aged as it lowers my Dex, which I sorta need/want. Hide/Move Silent/Sleight of Hand are all going to be important.

In other news, my Fort save appears doomed to be terrible. Any good ways around that?

Edit: Spoke to soon. The Feat that gives Int to HP requires a willing partner and doesn't really work at all for my character from a fluff perspective.

jiriku
2009-12-03, 01:03 PM
If you're looking to get stat boosts simply for the sake of skill bonuses, take a LA would be a big mistake. Skill ranks are just as important as skill bonuses, and a LA requires you to sacrifice the former to gain the latter. You're giving up skill points to gain skill points.

Assume your default LA +0 choice is a race that grants +2 Int, and you manage to find an LA+2 race with +4 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha. Assume your Int before racial mods is 16. Assuming the party is at, say, level 8 and you're at 6 + 1 LA (partiall bought off but still lagging behind), you have gained 9 bonus skill points from higher Int and an additional +1 to all mental skills. However, you've lost 20 skill points from lost levels - it's likely that you're more or less breaking even on your skill ranks. And you've lost 2 levels of factotum ability.

If you wanna min-max for skills, I'd suggest a +0 LA race with an Int bonus like grey elf or deep imaskari human, or an illumian, which can take sigils to get +2 untyped bonuses for all skills keyed off two attributes. Use skill ranks and gear to get your bonuses, not ability modifiers.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 01:26 PM
If you're looking to get stat boosts simply for the sake of skill bonuses, take a LA would be a big mistake. Skill ranks are just as important as skill bonuses, and a LA requires you to sacrifice the former to gain the latter. You're giving up skill points to gain skill points.

Assume your default LA +0 choice is a race that grants +2 Int, and you manage to find an LA+2 race with +4 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha. Assume your Int before racial mods is 16. Assuming the party is at, say, level 8 and you're at 6 + 1 LA (partiall bought off but still lagging behind), you have gained 9 bonus skill points from higher Int and an additional +1 to all mental skills. However, you've lost 20 skill points from lost levels - it's likely that you're more or less breaking even on your skill ranks. And you've lost 2 levels of factotum ability.

If you wanna min-max for skills, I'd suggest a +0 LA race with an Int bonus like grey elf or deep imaskari human, or an illumian, which can take sigils to get +2 untyped bonuses for all skills keyed off two attributes. Use skill ranks and gear to get your bonuses, not ability modifiers.

Well, the abilities aren't JUST for skills... Dex for Init, Int for Factotum, Wis for Will, Con for HP/Fort, Cha for... ok, Cha's mostly for skills and character concept.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-03, 01:27 PM
Looked at the thread, may be able to live without Con (there's a feat that lets my Int determine my HP per level? Sign me up!). Would still love some kind of 2-3 stat boost... ideally on a template rather than a race, so I can snag that human bonus feat.

I'm hesitant to go middle aged as it lowers my Dex, which I sorta need/want. Hide/Move Silent/Sleight of Hand are all going to be important.

In other news, my Fort save appears doomed to be terrible. Any good ways around that?

Edit: Spoke to soon. The Feat that gives Int to HP requires a willing partner and doesn't really work at all for my character from a fluff perspective.The 'willing partner' bit just means that you can't reset it until you meet someone else, the benefits technically last forever. I viewed the 'must be an elf' thing as harder to deal with. But, Grey Elves are awesome for that.

For boosting Fort, there's the Headband of Conscious Effort(MIC) and the Ring of Diamond mind(ToB) that allow you to replace a Fort save with a Conc check, 1/day and 1/encounter, respectively. IIRC, 6k for the pair.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 01:34 PM
Did someone in this thread say that Factotum get Int to Init? I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the class features.

tyckspoon
2009-12-03, 01:38 PM
Did someone in this thread say that Factotum get Int to Init? I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the class features.

Int to Dex checks. Initiative is explicitly a Dex check. Therefor, Int to Initiative.

Blackfang108
2009-12-03, 02:00 PM
Did someone in this thread say that Factotum get Int to Init? I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the class features.

It's there. You get Int to Dex-checks. Initiative is a Dex-check. Ergo: you get Int to Initiative.

Edit: Where is my anti-Ninja rocket launcher? :smallbiggrin:

Talbot
2009-12-03, 03:58 PM
Int to Dex checks. Initiative is explicitly a Dex check. Therefor, Int to Initiative.

I thought it specifically said Dex based skills? Is Initiative a skill check?

Blackfang108
2009-12-03, 05:03 PM
I thought it specifically said Dex based skills? Is Initiative a skill check?

Page 17, Brains over Brawn:
"At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a Modifer on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity..."

Nope. All Dex Checks.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 05:22 PM
Does that include Saves/Ranged Attack rolls? If so, very awesome.

Hunter Noventa
2009-12-03, 05:38 PM
Does that include Saves/Ranged Attack rolls? If so, very awesome.

No, Saves and Attack rolls are serate rolls that get a bonus from dexteriry or what have you. Initiative is only notable from a plain dex check is that there are things like Improved Initiative that add only to Initiative.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 05:42 PM
No, Saves and Attack rolls are serate rolls that get a bonus from dexteriry or what have you. Initiative is only notable from a plain dex check is that there are things like Improved Initiative that add only to Initiative.

Too bad. Maybe I can convince my DM otherwise :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2009-12-03, 06:15 PM
Dragonborn Buormmans: +2 Wis/Con, -2 Dex/Cha. LA +0.
But you said you want Dex and Cha.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 06:32 PM
Dragonborn Buormmans: +2 Wis/Con, -2 Dex/Cha. LA +0.
But you said you want Dex and Cha.

As long as I go melee I don't really need Dex for much, I suppose, what with Brains over Brawn (and the Factotum already has decent Reflex), but yeah, I'd like Cha to be at least a +2 or +3.

Justyn
2009-12-03, 08:17 PM
You can only buy off LA every couple of levels

The pattern is LAx3.

So a Lizardfolk with a LA of 1 would be able to completely buy off his LA at level 3.

An Insectile Human with an LA of 2 can but off her LA from 2 to 1 at level 6, and then completely at level 9.

A something with an LA of 3 would buy his LA from 3 to 2 at level 9, then from from 2 to 1 at level 15, and then completely at level 18

Anything with an LA of 4 wouldn't completely buy her's off until level 30.