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root9125
2009-12-03, 12:39 PM
If the phrase "Of course the Slaad speaks Bro" makes sense to you, this is not for your eyes. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, all.

I have a universe that, through the ineptitude and haphazard murdering habits of my PCs, is about to be taken over by the forces of Good. They're 90% likely to die. However, I think they like the game, so I will be continuing the campaign with new characters, some number of years into the future.

I want the lawful good empire to be more Lawful Stupid than anything else. Give them an excellent reason to fight it. So terribly Lawful Stupid that even a Chaotic Good player would feel the need to end it.

Can anyone give me ideas, examples in film, anything that would help me build a Too-Lawful-Stupid-To-Live empire?

Rhiannon87
2009-12-03, 12:44 PM
This sounds like the plot of Villains by Necessity by Eve Forward. It's a pretty fun fantasy novel, plays with a lot of standard fantasy tropes, stuff like that. The basic plot is something like what you're describing-- good won the battle of good vs evil and took over, and there's a group of "bad guys" who have to save the world by bringing evil back, in order to maintain balance.

The rulers in question are pretty painfully Lawful Stupid. The main antagonist is a ranger-type named Fenwick (I think, it's been a little while since I've read the book) who is really truly Lawful Good. But he's like every terrible paladin cliche of LG ever all rolled into one person. And he's representative of the entire rulership-- they're all so blinded by how very, very good they are that the idea that they could be wrong never occurs to them.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-03, 12:46 PM
I wanna say "Judge Dredd", because the absolute obeying of law is extreme. But that's more lawful neutral. I don't know that I know any Lawful Stupid extremes offhand.

root9125
2009-12-03, 12:49 PM
Villians by Necessity looks perfect, but no library near me has it, and it's ~$250 new, $40 used on Amazon.

Lol. Not for me. :smallbiggrin:

vicente408
2009-12-03, 12:50 PM
I wanna say "Judge Dredd", because the absolute obeying of law is extreme. But that's more lawful neutral. I don't know that I know any Lawful Stupid extremes offhand.

Think of an army of Mikos. :miko:

Edwin
2009-12-03, 12:52 PM
You could play the lawful stupid equals blindness to what matters angle. As in, the good guys on top are, while painfully law abiding and, well, lawful stupid, their entire system is rotten to the core.

So you would have a bunch of a bit too good for their own sake guys running their empire, while everything not directly tied in with the state has metaphorical rabies.

Akal Saris
2009-12-03, 12:54 PM
If you play WoW, the Scarlet Crusade always inspired me when I thought of "Paladins gone too far and a little nuts".

Another example of good gone too far is in the Dragonlance Twins trilogy, where the forces of Good have won, and become increasingly intolerant of anything that might be evil, even starting to persecute for "evil thoughts" and "potential to do evil." If every block has a paladin, imagine all the Detect Evils flying all over the place...

Both of these are a little more grim than what you're looking for though :P

root9125
2009-12-03, 12:55 PM
Both of these are a little more grim than what you're looking for though :P

Nothing is more grim than what I'm looking for. :biggrin:

mikeejimbo
2009-12-03, 12:56 PM
The humans in Goblins might count, though they've probably gone to the other side, where they simply are evil. (Though they think they're good.)

Edwin
2009-12-03, 12:57 PM
If you play WoW, the Scarlet Crusade always inspired me when I thought of "Paladins gone too far and a little nuts".

Another example of good gone too far is in the Dragonlance Twins trilogy, where the forces of Good have won, and become increasingly intolerant of anything that might be evil, even starting to persecute for "evil thoughts" and "potential to do evil." If every block has a paladin, imagine all the Detect Evils flying all over the place...

Both of these are a little more grim than what you're looking for though :P

Cut the scarlets a bit of slack, dude. :smallamused:

They were infiltrated by a friggin' Dreadlord, you know. Not to mention their leader, who's even more corrupted and vile.

The Dragonlance one is kinda nice, though.

Mando Knight
2009-12-03, 01:01 PM
Can anyone give me ideas, examples in film, anything that would help me build a Too-Lawful-Stupid-To-Live empire?

You asked for it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor) Don't say I didn't (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheTetrisEffect)warn you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

Now, lose a few hours of your life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheTetrisEffect) reading up on this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar)matter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid).

Drakyn
2009-12-03, 01:01 PM
The humans in Goblins might count, though they've probably gone to the other side, where they simply are evil. (Though they think they're good.)

I think most of the stuff here qualifies as that, since technically speaking if you're doing horrible things, by definition you aren't good. Incompetent and stupid but well-meaning might be an interesting look on it.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-03, 01:01 PM
First, extreme punishments with no consideration for circumstances. Lawbreakers will be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and that's a long long ways.

Second, the ends always justify the means. They're LG, but if they don't have time well it might be easier to just kill the whole village instead of finding the evil cultists.

Third, they're always right and will take care of you. Slavery should absolutely thrive (more than under any other system in fact). Career will not be up to the individual but to the government, and distractions are illegal (no music, no art, etc... nothing that distracts one from what is lawful and good).

Other possibilities include a strict caste system with no way to advance, extreme differences between the rich and poor (with of course there being many more poor than rich), and a tendency to use up the populace in the name of the kingdom.

root9125
2009-12-03, 01:05 PM
You asked for it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor) Don't say I didn't (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheTetrisEffect)warn you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

Now, lose a few hours of your life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheTetrisEffect) reading up on this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar)matter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid).

I had an exam to study for.
*rage!!!*

Gorilla2038
2009-12-03, 01:11 PM
Personally, i always thought Mao's Communism was a good example of Lawful stupid: Lets kill 100 million people by starvation, for there own good!

Other good historical examples: Spartan army at Thermopylae (refusing to march the army because of an omen), Angkor Wat (city falling because it was against the religon to have troop in the capital), Pol Pot(he was evil in a true sense, but his policies were were lawful stupid).

Not sure if thats helpful, but it might be.

Edwin
2009-12-03, 01:15 PM
Other good historical examples: Spartan army at Thermopylae (refusing to march the army because of an omen),

That's one very specific example.

Other than that, Spartans were notoriously prone to attacking left and right, even when it was not in their best interests.

Trojan wars, people? :smalltongue:

Historical accuracy none-withstanding.

Weimann
2009-12-03, 01:19 PM
I can't give examples of movies or books, I'm afraid. However, I can reason a bit.

Judge Dredd is a pretty good example of Lawful Neutral behaviour. He cares only for the upholding of the rules, and nothing for their consequences. He refers to the law above all, without making personal reflections of judgements.

A Lawful Good community should care about the upholding of order (which doesn't in all cases have to be the upholding of the rules) and should also weigh a moral aspect into it all. A ten-year-old thief who has obviously not eaten in a week might not need to be hanged.

Extrapolating from this, a Lawful Stupid society might place extra hard focus on the latter part? Eager to uphold morality and good conduct, they enforce not only literal laws, but also strict behavioural codes that might or might not be supervised by police. Smoking and drinking is forbidden, as is shouting at or offending someone else. Forbidden not only in public, but completely, as anger and delinquency can only breed hate and mistrust.

What they don't grasp is that the ability to get angry isn't removed with the removal of the expressions of anger. It is just turned inwards. Festering. After not very long, you'll end up with a community of people who smile their fake smiles and then go home and feel guilty over not being happy, when they right fully should be. They become either listless husks, or bombs ready to blow at any minute.

That's how I imagine it, anyway.

Somewhere
2009-12-03, 01:26 PM
Equilibrium?

chiasaur11
2009-12-03, 01:42 PM
I wanna say "Judge Dredd", because the absolute obeying of law is extreme. But that's more lawful neutral. I don't know that I know any Lawful Stupid extremes offhand.

Also, he's awesome Lawful Stupid with reasonably notable evil tendencies.

So, yeah. Not the ideal here.

Edwin
2009-12-03, 01:57 PM
I can't give examples of movies or books, I'm afraid. However, I can reason a bit.

Judge Dredd is a pretty good example of Lawful Neutral behaviour. He cares only for the upholding of the rules, and nothing for their consequences. He refers to the law above all, without making personal reflections of judgements.

A Lawful Good community should care about the upholding of order (which doesn't in all cases have to be the upholding of the rules) and should also weigh a moral aspect into it all. A ten-year-old thief who has obviously not eaten in a week might not need to be hanged.

Extrapolating from this, a Lawful Stupid society might place extra hard focus on the latter part? Eager to uphold morality and good conduct, they enforce not only literal laws, but also strict behavioural codes that might or might not be supervised by police. Smoking and drinking is forbidden, as is shouting at or offending someone else. Forbidden not only in public, but completely, as anger and delinquency can only breed hate and mistrust.

What they don't grasp is that the ability to get angry isn't removed with the removal of the expressions of anger. It is just turned inwards. Festering. After not very long, you'll end up with a community of people who smile their fake smiles and then go home and feel guilty over not being happy, when they right fully should be. They become either listless husks, or bombs ready to blow at any minute.

That's how I imagine it, anyway.

This is sort of what I was saying.

You would end up with a small group of people in power, who thinks that their Utopia is all well and great, but everyone not in same position is unhappy, mainly because they see the real result of the the Lawful-stupid ruling the world.

The Lawful-stupid people in power, being lawful-stupid, of course refuses to realize this, and so the PC's must topple them. By whatever means necessary, including Villains by necessity hooks.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-03, 02:01 PM
For the wages of sin is death...
There is danger in using part of a quote and out of context.
Extrapolate. Exaggerate. Excommunicate!

Gorilla2038
2009-12-03, 02:03 PM
Oh! I completely forgot the best example of lawful stupid. Go 40k!

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperium_of_Man

nyarlathotep
2009-12-03, 02:10 PM
I wanna say "Judge Dredd", because the absolute obeying of law is extreme. But that's more lawful neutral. I don't know that I know any Lawful Stupid extremes offhand.

Not to justify Megacity One's system which is definitely lawful neutral or even evil; for Dredd himself it really depends on when in continuity we're talking about. He really ranging anywhere for straight up LE to lawful neutral or even all the way to lawful good depending on the time period.

chiasaur11
2009-12-03, 02:11 PM
Oh! I completely forgot the best example of lawful stupid. Go 40k!

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperium_of_Man

I'm pretty sure that's just straight up evil. It just fights worse evil.

Actually, that's a big part of what bugs me about most things of this sort. Sure, the best of intentions can and will go horribly wrong. But most set ups of this kind go beyond good guys messing up or not having the system work so that maximum good is achieved all the way to having guys who killpurgeburn anyone who isn't all for killpurgeburn of everyone, so that "good" is just evil with a smileyface badge on.

And it's usually in favor of "balance" in the end, which can just fall into a hole and die.

Rhiannon87
2009-12-03, 02:35 PM
First, extreme punishments with no consideration for circumstances. Lawbreakers will be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and that's a long long ways.

Second, the ends always justify the means. They're LG, but if they don't have time well it might be easier to just kill the whole village instead of finding the evil cultists.

Third, they're always right and will take care of you. Slavery should absolutely thrive (more than under any other system in fact). Career will not be up to the individual but to the government, and distractions are illegal (no music, no art, etc... nothing that distracts one from what is lawful and good).

Other possibilities include a strict caste system with no way to advance, extreme differences between the rich and poor (with of course there being many more poor than rich), and a tendency to use up the populace in the name of the kingdom.

Eh, I'd disagree on point 3. (Point 2 works with the right PR-- "The cultists had infiltrated and infected the entire village! It had to be cleansed! CLEANSED WITH HOLY FLAME.) I don't think there'd be slavery or a pure dictatorship like that... There'd still be freedom to choose your job, so long as it wasn't evil-ish, and even though they're lawful stupid, they're still supposed to be good. Slavery just doesn't work with that. And there has to still be music and art, if only for propaganda purposes.

Historical examples: the Inquisition! Witch hunts! Theocracy might be the way to go here for your LG empire. Get the whole spiraling chaos of people being accused of evil or intent to commit evil, then accusing others. Physical torture wouldn't be LG, but you could use psychological pressure (blackmail, coercion, threats, bribes, etc) to get confessions. Magic is an option too, especially enchantment and illusion. Paladins would have insane amounts of power, with their ability to detect evil at well.

Another track you could try is to have a government that is fixated on fighting "evil" in one particular incarnation, and ignoring everything else. I've got an organization in my campaign that's like this. They're a group of paladins and clerics who fight evil outsiders. And nothing else. Crime, undead, tyrants, none of those are important unless demons are involved. Most of the locals despise them because they never help people. So you could have something like that on a government-wide scale: they're so busy fighting evil that they can't be bothered to maintain the roads or help the poor or anything other than raise armies of paladins to fight evil.

root9125
2009-12-03, 02:41 PM
Historical examples: the Inquisition! Witch hunts! Theocracy might be the way to go here for your LG empire.

I have to say it:

The Inquisition! Let's begin!
The Inquisition! Look out, sin!
We have a mission, to convert the jews! (jew-ja-jew-ja-jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right!
We're gonna help them see the light!
And make an offer that they just can't refuse! (That the jews just can't refuse!)

Count Dravda
2009-12-03, 02:45 PM
Read 1984, if you haven't already. A civilization under constant seige as the authorities watch every move you ever make, ever. If you look the wrong direction or grimace, EVER, you are hauled away never to be seen again.

I imagine in an extreme LS society, there exist two or three options to each person in any situation ("Yes please, sir." "No, thank you, my good sir."). Doing anything outside of these options (walking away, being terse or angry because you were already in a bad mood) results in everyone nearby being mortified and calling the police to end your "madness."

A LS system enforces not only laws, but ethics. Swearing, drinking, smoking, physical contact, running, non-approved clothing, failure to greet an undercover officer...all these could result in harsh penalties. Keep in mind that the government probably puts all kinds of money into new technologies that facilitate their ability to govern people's lives. Mutants that can read minds, devices that project a desired feeling, and mind-controlling devices that force random people to become model citizens become ever more common.

Hope this gets your brain working. And keep in mind that there are probably quite a few genuinely LG people who believe that the system is the best it can be, and they uphold it because the only alternative they can imagine is anarchy and chaos.

-Count Dravda

Kaiser Omnik
2009-12-03, 02:52 PM
Personally, i always thought Mao's Communism was a good example of Lawful stupid: Lets kill 100 million people by starvation, for there own good!

Other good historical examples: Spartan army at Thermopylae (refusing to march the army because of an omen), Angkor Wat (city falling because it was against the religon to have troop in the capital), Pol Pot(he was evil in a true sense, but his policies were were lawful stupid).

Not sure if thats helpful, but it might be.

Be careful with real life examples. The first thing is way more complex.

In a fantasy world, I would expect armies to stand down if an oracle told them it was a bad idea to continue. :smalltongue:

And seriously, I don't see how a system can be Lawful stupid (or any other aligment). Usually, things that seem stupid are done like this for very logical reasons. The society in 1984 works very well. It may not allow much freedom, but as societies go, it looked to be working pretty well. What leader wouldn't like complete control over the population?

Now, lawful stupid leader who change laws and abuse their personal power...that's another story.

Bakkan
2009-12-03, 02:55 PM
A small example of a society somewhat like what you're talking about is from the Robert A. Heinlein short story "Coventry". It's a near-future Earth story in which America has come to the point that the main character, who slugged a man for an extremely rude insult, is given a choice between "rehabilitation" (read: chemical and psychological brainwashing) and exile to a prison-colony-esque place called "Coventry" that the government puts anyone who doesn't play nice. In this society, the goal of the government was to make sure that no-one ever offended or harmed (in any way) anyone else.

Come to think of it, Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 has a similar setup. In that story, all books are banned so that no-one ever reads something that they disagree with. Nobody must ever experience mental discomfort, so we remove anything that could confuse them or challenge their beliefs.

I don't personally find either of these societies Good by any means, but they seem pretty close to the Lawful Stupid you're looking for. Incidentally, I recommend that anyone who hasn't read these books find them at a local library immediately, as they are both excellent. Fahrenheit 451 is very popular, and "Coventry" can be found in the Heinlein short story collection The Past Through Tomorrow.

EDIT: Another example comes from the (mediocre-to-terrible) movie Minority Report (2002), in which mediums who can tell the future predict crimes and the police force races in to arrest the person for his "future" crime, even though he hasn't actually committed it yet. One common (mis-)conception of extremely Lawful societies is that people cannot change or choose -- if someone is "bad", they will always be "bad", and they should be locked up, or executed, or exiled, to keep them away form everyone else.

Weimann
2009-12-03, 02:57 PM
And seriously, I don't see how a system can be Lawful stupid (or any other aligment). Usually, things that seem stupid are done like this for very logical reasons. Now, lawful stupid leader who change laws and abuse their personal power...that's another story.I don't think it can either. However, we are working with D&D terminology here, so things will be confused ^^

Gorilla2038
2009-12-03, 02:57 PM
Its probably important to note that in a LAwful stupid society, true paladins and clerics would slowly slide out of favor, what with that silly commitment to GOOD. Perhaps the Paladin orders are being supplanted by more secular orders loyal only to the government?

Its also a good idea to remember that for dark, theocracies are not very good as the mass slaughtering thing. For example, the Spanish Inquisition killed something like 5000 people in its 300 existence.

Compare such to other psychopathic pursuits without the religion: Stalins 35,000 dead a day, Mao's 100 million dead, and of course, the holocaust. Religious wars tend to be brutal, but there Reigns tend to be less horrible than just some random crazy: After all, the purpose of religion is to save souls, and unless they have that whole "purifaction through torture" motif as a central tenant of a society or a major drive towards sacrifice(such as the worship of Bhalll in Carthage or such, or the more famous Aztec religion), your unlikely to run into a society that just kills people that disagree with it: conversion is a huge thing for all religions.

Also, though the idea tha paladins would be important to this society, why would the gods continue to gift them there powers? If a beings soul is unpure(in the sense that a god can basically read your mind all the time), why would they become a paladin to start?

Edit to avoid double post:


Be careful with real life examples. The first thing is way more complex.

It does, however, strike to the main point of lawful stupid: WE, the government, know better than you, the people, what is good for you. Knowing this to be true, we send you to do what we tell you too.

It is far more complex, but you can draw a basic moral from it.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-03, 03:03 PM
Eh, I'd disagree on point 3. (Point 2 works with the right PR-- "The cultists had infiltrated and infected the entire village! It had to be cleansed! CLEANSED WITH HOLY FLAME.) I don't think there'd be slavery or a pure dictatorship like that... There'd still be freedom to choose your job, so long as it wasn't evil-ish, and even though they're lawful stupid, they're still supposed to be good. Slavery just doesn't work with that. And there has to still be music and art, if only for propaganda purposes.

LAWFUL good. Freedom is not relevant to law. Slavery can certainly work with that, especially as a judicial punishment. Since criminals have made the bad decision to do evil and/or chaotic acts, clearly they are unable to guide their own lives successfully. Therefore, you show them how to turn their lives around. By requiring them to work, they learn both the value of work and the joys of helping others. Decent treatment would probably be mandated, though I can certainly see paladins supporting "tough love" programs.


So you could have something like that on a government-wide scale: they're so busy fighting evil that they can't be bothered to maintain the roads or help the poor or anything other than raise armies of paladins to fight evil.

And this is a great way to do it. Make them so obsessed with big issues and finding a permanent solution to the problem of evil that they ignore day-to-day troubles.
High crime rates in the capitol city? Don't worry about a couple muggings here, worry about what'll happen if the orcs from Berserkistan invade!
Starving peasants? You shouldn't worry about that, there's a lich somewhere in Necroslavia who mentioned in passing several centuries ago that one could theoretically create an epic spell that spoils all the food in the world. Clearly he is planning to starve the world and we must find and stop him! The army needs the food, everyone has to sacrifice a bit.
People think the art control laws are too strict? If we make it legal to sell paintbrushes, anyone could have one. Someone could paint summoning circles for demons, and we'd have no way of knowing. Or, almost as bad, someone could make crappy art that makes the world a less enjoyable place. Only clerics with at least 10 years of training in secure painting academies can be trusted with arts supplies.
The druids are upset about our ecological projects? Sorry, but any one of those frogs could be a baby Slaad that somehow made its way to this plane. Killing all the frogs in the world is just a common-sense precaution.
The Berserkistani army is invading? Sorry, but all of our wizards are busy looking for demon cultists. If they managed to open a stable gate to this plan, we'd have the Abyss invading which would be much worse. We'll deal with the orcs when we know that there isn't a bigger threat about to invade.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-03, 03:22 PM
The nation of Borogravia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monstrous_Regiment_%28novel%29)

Ormur
2009-12-03, 03:25 PM
If it's lawful good stupid I think you shouldn't go fully into totalitarian warhammer, inquisition nightmare societies, more like silly and ineffective.

Make the government ignore reality in favour of it's own view of how people should act. Enforcing petty rules about how to behave and be polite while large scale corruption and cruelty goes unnoticed because all those nice guys at the top think their society is perfect.

The punishment for offenses shouldn't be draconian but you could imagine half the population doing community service for petty violations and rudeness. Of course nobody could enforce that so most people would just pretend to work of their sentence, in fact I think everyone would be a huge phony, pretending to be supergood while brewing moonshine and running brothels in their basement.

All problems would be solved by simple but unrealistic laws, like banning merchants and farmers from raising prices if there is a crop failure, expecting poor farmers to fend of raiding Orcs even if they're outmatched because it's the honourable thing to do etc.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-03, 03:41 PM
I realized while I was away from my computer, a story with lawful stupid in it. Harrison Burgeron (or some spelling like that). In this story, the government decided everyone should be equal (that's a LG thing, right?), but went insane with it. People who weren't fat had to wear weights. People who were geniuses had things implanted in their head to make loud noises every few seconds, so they couldn't do real thinking. All sorts of stuff like that.

I know my last input was awful, so I figured I'd try to redeem myself.

Randel
2009-12-03, 04:01 PM
The first thing I think of is the Justice League. Get a bunch of super heroes who can perform practically god-like feats who seem to live for the purpose of beating up super villains and random pickpockets. They have their base of operations on a space station orbiting the earth and pack enough firepower with their fists alone to take over the world ten times over... but they don't charge any money, hold any elections, make any real demands or compromises with government officials or really seem to interact with anyone except when they appear out of nowhere and beat people into unconsciousness for 'breaking the law.'

Oh, and their identities are all secret and they almost all have elaborate packs of lies and deceptions and stuff to make sure nobody finds out who they are... its not for their benefit mind you (because that makes it difficult to impossible to lead normal lifes and interact or even relate to the people they protect) its all for the greater good of protecting those near them.


Think about Spider Man: "With great power comes great responsibility." However he always has to keep his identity secret and 99% of the time he flees from the scene after catching the bad guy to keep the police from catching him. He has to live an enormous lie to keep his family safe... even though he can beat up almost anyone who wants to hurt him even when outnumbered and if the police were working with him then protection would be even easier... if all the superheros formed a group then who would be stupid enough to go for their families?

The loved one of a super hero would probably be as valuable as a high-ranking government official. If the government knew that Lois Lane was supermans girl, they would be more than willing to assign a round-the-clock security detail the prevent what could be worse than an international incident if Supes when berserk!


Also, therapy... how many superheros have a horribly tragic past that could probably could be solved through some simple therapy (which again is often neglected since heroes seem to prefer their secrets and can't open up enough to actually solve them).



In short... imagine if superheros did take over the world, but did it badly. Sure, they can beat up villains but they never kill them and instead just knock them out and throw them into jail. Even if they do design their jails to be powerful enough to avoid cardboard prison breakouts then theres still the fact that their enemies are stuck in there going crazier and meaner instead of being reformed (if thats possible) or just getting killed and getting closure.

There is no closure with superhero justice because they refuse to actually kill anyone, instead just lock them away.

There is no governing in a superhero society because they don't tax the people they protect, they just do it for the 'greater good'.

a quote I got from TVTropes:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis



So basically... a world run by lawful stupid heroes would be less of an actual government then it would just be a bunch of Moral Guardians who insist on having everything done the 'good' way or Knight Templars who enjoy beating up 'evil' people. Once all the real evil people get locked up in prisons (and they will be locked up, almost as if the heroes secretly wanted them to escape at some point to give them a problem to solve) then they will keep meddling in all the lesser evils.

And worst of all, these guys aren't really interested in ruling anything, they don't want to control people because controlling them would be wrong, they don't strive for power because power corrupts (the fact that they are super powerful right now doesn't occur to them) and they are probably going to be keeping close tabs on anyone who could gain any sort of power to become a villain.

Villains build lairs and hire henchmen and bribe government officials to oppress the masses. Heros just beat up bad people.



So, their world would probably consist of a few epic leveled good guys, a whole bunch bad guys and thugs and stuff all locked up in dungeons (dungeons would probably be full of traps and have automated create food and water stuff to keep the prisoners alive forever) and the millions of people who are so used to having stuff solved by epic level heros that they can't stand for themselves.

Oh, and as said before, the heroes all have angsty back stories, secrets, and problems with relating to normal people so they probably can't even comprehend that what they are doing is wrong (or just unbalanced). Though, it would probably be better to have a few of them with somewhat better personalities who are willing (at least a little) to change the system to be a bit more forgiving or at least make sense.


The Justice League episode "A Better World" could give you a good idea of what it might look like.

Ormur
2009-12-03, 04:33 PM
There's also the Superhero comic The Authority where a few superheros try to make the word better, not just by beating up terrorists but by beating up bad governments. That kind of messes with the status quo so the US and other big powers try to kill them. That just pisses them off so they decide to take over the US to beat some sense in them (kind of a liberal day dream gone horribly wrong), which of course ends in all sorts of trouble.
They're goals are laudable and I actually liked them but they're still very similar to gung ho D&D players that just kill every bad guy in sight and then screw things up. They are so violent though that they hardly classify as LG they're more like NG turned TN.

Johel
2009-12-03, 05:05 PM
LAWFUL good. Freedom is not relevant to law. Slavery can certainly work with that, especially as a judicial punishment. Since criminals have made the bad decision to do evil and/or chaotic acts, clearly they are unable to guide their own lives successfully. Therefore, you show them how to turn their lives around. By requiring them to work, they learn both the value of work and the joys of helping others. Decent treatment would probably be mandated, though I can certainly see paladins supporting "tough love" programs.

No slavery !! Only "patriotic voluntary work".

What do you mean, you aren't voluntary ?
Your father is, your mother is, your whole freaking village is !! We are all working together for the betterment of this society, to eradicate all EVILS from the face of this Earth !! Each man ought to do his part. Your little brother is doing is part, voluntarily !! Sure, he isn't paid but nobody is. We can't be bothered with such small material detail with our holy reward hanging just a few years away !!

Forward, brothers, forward, sisters !! Let's work twice as hard without asking reward nor complaining, for egoism is a step toward evil and even the slightest indulgence might cost us the ultimate victory. Once victory is achieve, and it IS GOING TO HAPPEN soon, then we will all bath in river of honey, with perfectly tended heavenly gardens surrounding our perfectly built cities, where everything will be governed by Order and altruist Love.

But before that, there's that one last struggle. A struggle that rages not only on the battlefield but also at the workshop, in the cornfields, in the mines and the harbors. Your everyday work is a fight for the Greater Good. Fight, brothers, fight, sisters !! And show the world how determined we are to win.

Respect the law in all things, obey to your superiors, care for your inferiors. Protect the weak, hail the strong.
Don't waste, unless ordered to, for waste is the mark of gluttony. Gluttony is a sin, as it deprives less-fortunate brothers from their daily bread.
Siners must be smitten !!
Don't spare, unless ordered so, for spare is the mark of greed. Greed is a sin, as it prevents the equal and just distribution of wealth.
Siners must be smitten !!
Don't rest, unless ordered so, for rest is the mark of sloth. Sloth is a sin, as it reduces the amount of wealth you can share with your brothers.
Don't be ambitious, moderate your feelings, talk openly to your priest, for the opposite can lead to pride, anger, lust and envy. All are sins, as they poison the minds and turn brothers against each others.
Order, Truth, Altruism, Zeal... All are the pavements of our golden road toward a word of perfect Justice.

Don't shun the difficulty, don't question orders, work hard, be respectful in attitude and in mind. Take care of your weaker brothers but be warry of them, for their minds are easy preys for many evils. Make sure others feel well, forget your self and dissolve it into the group.

Remember the fallen heroes who gave you this world. Honor them and be an exemple. Become a hero and give a better world to your children and your brother's children. Your sacrifice shall be rewarded with eternal blessing above and eternal gratitude down here.

The followers of the enemy are weak and ignorant. They are blind slaves who obey their dark masters without knowing. We shall bring them light and redeem them, even in death. We shall free them from their willing slavery. And then, together, they will fight at our side and one day we will win !! One day... One day... But in the meantime, work hard, brothers, work hard as a patriotic volunteer. We fight for Order !! We fight for Justice !! We fight for the Greater Good !! Follow us and don't ask questions...or we'll smite you.

erikun
2009-12-03, 05:15 PM
You want Lawful Stupid? Start with the most absurd version of legalese you can think of, and then take it from there.

Police Officiers will arrest you for breaking the law. However, there are so many laws that each police officier will only enforce the specific law they are assigned to. Breaking the law in front of a "wrong" police officier will end with them yelling at the party, telling them that the police are coming. Resisting arrest is a different crime, and thus would require a different officier. Escape from an officier (such as picking handcuffs) is a seperate crime and the arresting officier will not move to prevent the party from simply walking away.

Massive amounts of paperwork. So much that the party will more likely die from old age than actually be sentenced for anything.

Massive wars spanning every continent which never actually happen because everyone is still working through setting up diplomatic meetings to set up diplomatic meetings.

If you don't mind the party breaking the law (which from the sounds of things, is the point) you could make it illegal to travel between towns. Of course, explaining the proceedings to acquire a license takes several days in itself, not to mention the paperwork and the filing and the processing... Then again, it's not like anyone will stop them immediately. (See officiers, above)

chiasaur11
2009-12-03, 05:55 PM
Wow. Most of these systems would make lawful good folks strap on a Guy Fawkes mask and quote poetry.

Another idea:

The Village. It's nice, safe and oh so happy if you cooperate. All they need to know is why you resigned.

They'd rather if they weren't forced to use extreme methods. But if they're left with no choice...

Seems an idea, anyway.

StoryKeeper
2009-12-05, 01:11 AM
I think a key trick you might look at using is that the SOCIETY is Lawful Stupid, but that doesn't mean all of your adversaries will be.

For example (because this is the example that springs ot mind and might see use in my game), the universe was once at risk from the forces of evil (or maybe chaos or both). To save the world and maintain the balance, the powers that be decided to make super-powerful Law/Good guy. They chose a MORTAL (read: mutable and flawed) guys to be the bearer of the superpowers (we've all seen "The Chosen One" from prophecy X Y and Z.)

Superguy does his job, beats up teh bad guy, and lives happily in his newly-established kingdom which he keeps safe from evil/chaos with his super powers (which make him a great BBGG by the way) and the help of his paladins. All these paladins joined him when he was a good guy that genuinely believed in helping the people and all that jazz. They're the swords of the savior of humanity or what have you.

Over time, however, the superguy starts to shift his world view a bit. He starts to get arrogant/selfish/ simply doesn't have any evil left to throw all his powers against. He starts over-managing his kingdom or simply starts tofocus on his own power/pleasure more than defeating chaos/evil.

Now all those paladins are still totally devoted to their hero, but their hero isn't so Good any more. They'll still follow his every order because back in the day he was a semi-divine hero that fought tooth and nail on teh side of good, and basically has credibility through celebrity status.

To expand this into a society, just say that everyone is still devoted to this hero or something.

In D&D terms to help the paladins retain their powers, use the cleric's philosophy rule. Maybe they've started to fail to serve a lawful good deity, but they continue to get powers because they still believe they're working for Law and Good.

Vigilantes (your PC's perhaps) must be stopped, with force if necesarry, for their own good. Only the paladins are qualified to administer justice with the wisdom of the superguy backing them up. Of course, superguy is giving seemingly good orders (be careful to make his decisions somewhat believable, maybe even to himself so he can rationalize), but maybe he's thinking less about hwo these vigilantes might accidentally upset the established good order and more about how much it terrifies his micro-managing butt to think of a powerful group of individuals he can't boss around.

P.S. The world of exalted comes to mind as well. Everyone in the world was tricked into believing that the protagonists, the Solar Exalted, are evil and debauched, so they do everything they can to stop these "evil" fellows, when they're really innocent. Comes complete wtih the beloved empress defending the world from threats attacking from all planar directions.

Serpentine
2009-12-05, 01:43 AM
Extrapolating from this, a Lawful Stupid society might place extra hard focus on the latter part? Eager to uphold morality and good conduct, they enforce not only literal laws, but also strict behavioural codes that might or might not be supervised by police. Smoking and drinking is forbidden, as is shouting at or offending someone else. Forbidden not only in public, but completely, as anger and delinquency can only breed hate and mistrust.

What they don't grasp is that the ability to get angry isn't removed with the removal of the expressions of anger. It is just turned inwards. Festering. After not very long, you'll end up with a community of people who smile their fake smiles and then go home and feel guilty over not being happy, when they right fully should be. They become either listless husks, or bombs ready to blow at any minute.

That's how I imagine it, anyway.I like this idea, and the potential consequences. You could end up with top-secret illegal fight clubs all over the place, and/or "mean clubs", or societies of spite...

My suggestion: overuse of "detect alignment" and so on.
Someone's accused of a crime? Detect Alignment. Non-Lawful Good (or perhaps just non-Lawful) = guilty.
A new creature is encountered? Detect alignment. Wrong alignment = extermination.
A diplomat from another nation arrives? Detect alignment. Wrong alignment = war. Of course, this fellow being the representative of his country, he presumably represents them in all things.
A child is born? Detect alignment. Wrong alignment = exposure (though this may depend on how much alignment is "intrinsic" or developed).

Of course, detect alignment will never be directed at those in charge. It's against the law/unnecessary/goes against tradition/just never comes up, etc.

Another thought: enormous zones of truth that cover whole cities. Because lies are always, always bad. Unless, perhaps, told by those in charge, in which case they'd have some way of bypassing it...