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Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 03:16 PM
The Paladin revised to be a more competitive, higher tier class. There were several aims I had in mind when designing this fix.

The first was to make pure classing viable and competitive; I really wanted to give players compelling reasons to stick with the Paladin, rather than branching off/dipping into something else.

The second was to make the class itself viable and competitive overall, and decisively 3rd tier.

The third was to do the first and second in ways that were thematic and appropriate. Emphasizing the Paladin's iconic roles as a defender of the meek, and a slayer of evil I thought to be the best way of going about this, primarily by means of damage and resistance sharing, enhanced healing and anti-evil/undead capabilities. It wasn't about simply increasing the class' defensive capabilities so much as it was highlighting these design elements.

With the exception of these changes and new abilities, or where explicitly stated, it is otherwise identical:

New class skills: Jump, Climb

Skill Points at 1st Level:

(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level:

4 + Int modifier.

Paladin
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Encounter|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Gift of the Martyr (50%)|-|-|-|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Turn Undead, Argent Soul, Divine Providence, Greater Smite I|0|-|-|-

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Smite Evil 2/Encounter, Special Mount, Divine Aegis, Aura of Beneficence|0|-|-|-

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Lay on Hands II, Indomitable Zeal|1|-|-|-

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Blade of Virtue, Detect Evil II|1|-|-|-

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Argent Soul II, Greater Smite II|1|0|-|-|-

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Lay on Hands III|1|0|-|-

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Smite Evil 3/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (75%), Aura of Beneficence II, Blade of Virtue II, Scouring Light|1|1|0|-

11th|
+11/6/1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Celestial Mount, Detect Evil III|1|1|1|-

12th|
+12/7/2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Lay on Hands IV, Argent Soul III, Indomitable Zeal II|1|1|1|-

13th|
+13/8/3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Blade of Virtue III|1|1|1|-

14th|
+14/9/4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Greater Smite III|2|1|1|0

15th|
+15/10/5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Smite Evil 4/Encounter, Lay on Hands V, Divine Aegis II|2|1|1|1

16th|
+16/11/6/1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Argent Soul IV, Blade of Virtue IV|2|2|1|1

17th|
+17/12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Detect Evil IV|2|2|2|1

18th|
+18/13/8/3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Lay on Hands VI, Indomitable Zeal III|3|2|2|1

19th|
+19/14/9/4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Blade of Virtue V|3|3|3|2

20th|
+20/15/10/5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Smite Evil 5/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (100%), Argent Soul V, Aura of Beneficence III, Greater Smite VI|3|3|3|3[/table]

High Saves: Fortitude, Will

Detect Evil (Su): As per the core class. However, the capabilities of the Paladin's Detect Evil improves over time as follows:

At the 7th class level, the Paladin gains the ability to gauge the nature of a subject's evil much more clearly, while the range of his eldritch insight expands. With a fourth round of study, the Paladin is able to determine whether or not the target detects as Evil due to Taint, arcane or profane energies (including spells and curses), personality and actions, and/or a subtype.
Finally, the range of Detect Evil increases by 30 feet plus 30 feet times the Paladin's Wisdom modifier (minimum 30 feet).

At the 11th class level, the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil becomes penetrating, shattering physical and mystical barriers alike to see through to the truth. The Paladin now makes an opposed caster level check using the total of his class level and Wisdom modifier as his caster level to penetrate illusions, spells and effects that obfuscate, redirect or block Detect Evil's alignment detection.
It furthermore is able pass through physical barriers much more effectively, penetrating two plus his Wisdom modifier (minimum 2) times the normal amount of material.

At the 17th class level, the Paladin's concentration and mastery of Detect Evil is such that he requires only one round of study to garner all information obtainable with it.

Smite Evil (Su): Instead of X uses per day, Smite Evil features X uses per encounter. Smites may also be made as ranged attacks. Smite Evil deals 2 times its normal bonus damage to Evil Outsiders and Undead. All damage dealt by Smite Evil counts as being Divine and Good aligned.


Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of lethal and/or non-lethal damage equal to her Paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A Paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using Lay on Hands is a Standard Action. A Paladin may convert a use of Turn Undead into a number of Healing points for Lay on Hands equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma bonus as a Free Action.

Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures and evil outsiders. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature or evil outsider. A Paladin cannot expend more Healing Points in this way than her Charisma modifier x her class level.

Beginning at the 6th class level, a Paladin can expend 10 hit points worth of Lay on Hands' healing power to remove one of the following conditions afflicting the touched target: dazzled, diseased, poisoned, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened or nauseated. Every 3 class levels beyond the sixth, the range of conditions that can be cured in this way is expanded. Unless stated otherwise, each condition requires 10 healing points to remove:

At the 9th class level Lay on Hands can remove ability damage, blindness, deafness and paralysis. Each point of ability damage costs 2 healing points to remove.

At the 12th class level Lay on Hands can remove the confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened and stunned conditions. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 100 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Raise Dead spell.

At the 15th class level Lay on Hands can remove ability drain and negative levels, and can act as a Break Enchantment spell with no maximum caster level, with a caster level equal to the Paladin's class level. Each point of ability drain costs 8 points to restore, and each negative level costs 16 points to restore. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 200 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Resurrection spell.

At the 18th class level, Lay on Hands can restore permanently drained levels at the cost of 50 healing points per drained level, and regenerate lost and severed body members as per the Regenerate spell, each body part requiring 50 healing points to regenerate. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 800 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the True Resurrection spell, though he must possess some fragment of remains of the deceased to touch, and must expend either 500 XP per HD of the target to be revived or a valuable diamond component as per the spell, or be in current and immediate possession of a powerful holy artifact of his patron deity.


Aura of Courage (Ex):As the base class, but the aura benefits only non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet). Allies benefiting from the aura receive a bonus on all saves against Fear equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum 1), up to a maximum equal to the Paladin's class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.


Gift of the Martyr (Su):It is the sacred duty of every Paladin to protect the weak and assist those in need. To this end, the gods have granted him the ability to spiritually attune with his allies, and absorb their wounds and ailments as though they were his own. Beginning at the 3rd class level, the Paladin may attune to a number of creatures up to his class level. Attuning a single creature requires a Full Action, and the Paladin must be touching all creatures to be attuned for this duration.

Once a creature is attuned, whenever it takes any damage or suffers any adverse non-damage effect, and is within 10 x class level feet of the Paladin, the Paladin may choose to redirect up to 50% of the damage to himself (rounded up), or attempt to redirect the non-damage effect to himself with a 50% chance of success. Only non-damaging effects that Lay on Hands can remove or cure (at any given class level) may be transferred with Gift of the Martyr. The Paladin is always aware of the exact amount of any damage to be transferred, and the exact nature of any transferable non-damage effect prior to making the decision to attempt a transfer.

At the 10th class level, up to 75% of the damage received by the attuned can be transferred, and non-damaging effects received by the attuned have up to a 75% chance of being transferred.

At the 20th class level, up to 100% of the damage received by the attuned can be transferred, and non-damaging effects received by the attuned have up to a 100% chance of being transferred.

The exact percentage of damage and probability of an effect being transferred is at the Paladin's option, up to the above maximums. A Paladin may dismiss any attuning at his option as a Free Action, and must dismiss an attuning of his option should he attempt to attune to a new creature when he has attuned the maximum number of creatures his class level will allow, or the new attuning will fail.


Argent Soul (Ex):The Paladin's soul becomes tempered with the steel of his virtue, reinforced by his valour, made impervious by his faith. Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin gains Negative Energy, Profane and Vile Resistance equal to 5 + his character level.

Starting at 8th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Ability Drain.

Starting at the 12th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Death magic, and magical death effects.

Starting at the 16th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Energy Drain.

Starting at the 20th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Negative Energy effects and damage.

Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive a bonus on all saves against these effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1), and half of all Resistances bestowed by this ability (rounded up) up to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.


Divine Providence (Su):Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt as a Free Action to invoke the protection of his deity, gaining one of the following: Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance versus a damage type of his choice, or a bonus to his AC, SR, or all saves equal to the total of his class level and Charisma modifier. This ability can be used in response to any attack, spell, event or effect, but its use must be declared before any rolls are made.

If the Paladin chooses a bonus to his saves, and succeeds on any save that normally has a partial effect on a success, it instead has no effect. The Paladin may opt to roll 2d20 for any saving roll made while Divine Providence is active, selecting the outcome of his choice.

If the Paladin chooses a bonus to his AC or Damage Reduction, he also gains Fortification equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma modifier. Bonuses to AC gained in this way are effective versus all attack types, including Incorporeal and Touch attacks.

The effects of this ability last until the end of the Paladin's next turn.


Divine Aegis (Su):Starting at the 5th class level, the Paladin gains a bonus to his AC equal to the lesser of his Charisma modifier and class level. This AC bonus applies against incorporeal and touch attacks. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive half of this bonus (rounded up).

Starting at the 15th class level, the Paladin gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + his class level, + his Charisma modifier. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive half of this Spell Resistance (rounded up).

By expending a Turn Undead attempt as a Free Action, the Paladin may increase the SR provided to his non-evil allies by an amount equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1), or the AC provided to his allies by an amount equal to half his Charisma modifier (round up, minimum 1) for one round per class level. The SR and AC granted by Divine Aegis to the Paladin's allies cannot ever exceed the amount it provides to the Paladin.



Aura of Beneficence (Su):Starting at the 5th class level, the aura of the Paladin becomes as a shining beacon to all who would rally against evil, and emits a continuous Protection Against Evil effect. Further, he is surrounded by a brilliant silver light, which sheds bright light for up to half the Paladin's class level + his Charisma modifier x 5 feet, and dim light for up to an additional half the Paladin's class level + his Charisma modifier x 5 feet (round up in all cases, with each area of illumination having a minimum 5 foot radius). The Paladin may expand, contract or dismiss this light as a Free Action. This light may even persist in magical darkness if the Paladin succeeds at an opposed caster level check, using his class level as his caster level.

Starting at the 10th class level, he emits a continuous Circle of Protection Against Evil effect.

Starting at the 20th class level, he emits a continuous Holy Aura effect. The DC of this effect is Charisma based.

While these emanations may be dispelled, the Paladin can simply reactivate them as a Free Action. The effective caster level of these emanations is equal to the Paladin's class level.


Remove Disease (Su): The Paladin does not gain the Remove Disease ability.


Indomitable Zeal (Ex):His mind and body alike made robust by the impenetrable armour of his conviction, the Paladin suffers no mortal weariness, predisposition to corrupting toxins, nor susceptibility to the rank temptations of bewitching magics. Starting at the 6th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Poison (including supernatural and magical poisons), Exhaustion, and Fatigue, and gains the Endurance and Diehard feats, even if he does not meet their prerequisites.

Starting at the 12th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt as an Immediate Action to bestow himself with a Delay Death effect, with a caster level equal to his class level.

Starting at the 18th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Mind Affecting spells and abilities.

Such is the Paladin's inner strength and vitality that it radiates outwards from his being, a potent spiritual essence that infuses his allies with a measure of his divine resilience. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive a bonus on all saves against Poison, Disease, Exhaustion, Fatigue and Mind Affecting spells and effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.


Blade of Virtue (Su): Starting at the 7th class level, the Paladin may expend uses of Turn Undead to imbue any single weapon with Light Generation and one of the following properties: Holy, Axiomatic, Ghost Touch, Disruption (this will work on Slashing or Piercing weapons), Merciful or an enhancement bonus equal to the total of the Paladin's class level and Charisma bonus / 4 versus Evil opponents (equivalent to a +1 bonus). In order to imbue a weapon with a given property, the Paladin must spend a number of Turn Undead attempts equal to its equivalent +X bonus. The light exuded by the weapon is a brilliant silver.

At the 10th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with the Undead or Evil Outsider Bane properties.

At the 13th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with the Brilliant Energy property. This form of the Brilliant Energy property works against Undead.

At the 16th class level, the Holy and Axiomatic properties become Holy and Axiomatic Burst, dealing an extra 1d10 points of Divine damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of Divine damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points. Bows, crossbows, and slings so imbued bestow the Divine damage upon their ammunition.

At the 19th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with a special property. This works as per the Vorpal property (including the cost of Vorpal property's X bonus. Further, non-slashing weapons can be imbued with it), but it only functions against Evil opponents, no critical hit confirmation is required, and doesn't work by decapitating, but by enveloping the Paladin's enemy in a conflagration of silver flames, thus rendering it effective even against those who are immune to critical hits (such as Undead). Those slain in this way are wholly consumed, leaving behind only their equipment and a small pile of fine, silvery dust. Enemies with more HD than the imbuer has class levels may make a Will save versus 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's class levels + the Paladin's Charisma modifier to only take 5d8 Divine damage instead.

For every 3 class levels beyond the 7th, when spending a Turn Undead attempt to imbue his weapon, the Paladin may imbue his weapon as if he had spent an additional Turn Undead attempt.

An imbued weapon retains all properties bestowed in this way for a number of minutes equal to the total of the imbuing Paladin's class level and Charisma modifier.

All properties imbued with this ability are only active and functional when used by the imbuing Paladin, though Evil creatures still receive 2 temporary negative levels while they attempt to use or handle any such imbued weapon. Undead and Evil Outsiders attempting to handle such a weapon receive these penalties in addition to 1d8 Divine damage times the total +X bonus of all imbued properties per round. Imbued properties do not overwrite existing ones; they are added to those the weapon possesses. Imbued properties do not stack with identical existing ones.


Greater Smite (Su) Beginning at the 4th class level, the Paladin's smites are empowered by the tested purity and growth of his faith, enabling him to cleave through virtually any defense with the fierce strength of his convictions. His Smites now bypass all damage reduction, immunities and resistances of an Evil aligned opponent.

Beginning at the 8th class level, the Paladin's hand is guided by the divine to seek out his foe. Smite Evil automatically ignores all Concealment and miss chances against Evil targets.

Beginning at the 14th class level, the Paladin adds his class level to the attack rolls of his smites, while adding his Charisma modifier to their damage rolls. Further, he rolls 2d20 for his Smite Evil attack roll, selecting the outcome of his choice.

Beginning at the 20th class level, the Paladin's smites act to instantly and utterly destroy any undead and evil outsiders (even if the outsider is beyond its native plane, it will be permanently killed) it strikes unless they succeed at a Will save equal to 10 + Class Level / 2 + Charisma modifier, enveloping them in a dazzling gout of disintegrating brilliant silver light. Any undead or evil outsider killed or destroyed by Smite Evil in this way is obliterated as per the Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)spell, leaving behind only a trace of fine, silvery dust while its equipment is unaffected.


Scouring Light (Su):Starting at the 10th class level, the Paladin may unleash a brilliant silver beam or burst of purifying divine energy at a target at the cost of one of his Turn or Smite Evil attempts as a Standard Action.

Beam Mode:

This beam is delivered as a Ranged Touch Attack. The beam has a range equal to 20 feet, + 20 feet per point of the Paladin's Charisma modifier, with a minimum range of 20 feet. Upon striking a target, the beam acts as a targeted Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) with a caster level equal to the Paladin's class level, plus his Charisma modifier, and no maximum caster level on the dispel check. Evil targets are furthermore dealt 1d8 Divine damage per point of the Paladin's Charisma modifier and for every two class levels, and must succeed on a Will save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's character level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier (for a minimum of 1 round). On a successful save, the target is dazzled instead for an equivalent period. Undead and Evil Outsiders receive twice this damage.

Burst Mode:

Conjures a brief vertical column of silver light that envelops a cylindrical area centred on the Paladin with a radius equal to 5 feet, plus the Paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum 5 feet) and a height four times that of the radius. All creatures within are subject to an area dispel version of Greater Dispel Magic as per the targeted version above. Evil creatures receive damage as per the targeted version above divided by 2. Undead and Evil Outsiders receive twice this amount. Further, Evil targets within the area of effect must make a successful Will save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's character level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier or be stunned as above for half the number of rounds (minimum 1 round). On a successful save, the target is dazzled instead for an equivalent period, and the damage that would be dealt to it by Scouring Light is halved.

Either version of Scouring Light may be channeled through a weapon held by the Paladin as a Swift Action. A creature successfully struck by a weapon channeling Scouring Light suffers its effects as if hit by the beam version above, with the burst version of this ability centred on that creature. Hitting a creature in this way completely discharges Scouring Light, thus its effects do not apply to any further attacks made, unless reapplied as another Swift Action.

Any creature killed or destroyed by Scouring Light in any form (even when channeled as part of a melee attack) is obliterated as per the Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)spell, leaving behind only a trace of fine, silvery dust while its equipment is unaffected. Evil Outsiders and Undead slain by Scouring Light, even if not on their native plane are completely and irrevocably destroyed.


Celestial Mount (Ex):Beginning at the 11th class level, the Paladin's mount gains the Celestial template. The mount or its equivalent now requires only a Swift or Immediate Action to call.

If your mount, or mount equivalent cannot have, or already has the Celestial template applied to it, or otherwise would not benefit from the Celestial template, you may summon it one additional time per day.

You can share spells with your mount as if it had the sorcerer/wizard familiar Share Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) ability.

You can choose to ignore your mount's spell resistance (if any).

vampire2948
2009-12-03, 04:03 PM
So... this:

Paladin
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+3|Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Encounter|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Gift of the Martyr (50%)|-|-|-|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Turn Undead, Argent Soul, Divine Providence|0|-|-|-

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Smite Evil 2/Encounter, Special Mount, Divine Aegis, Aura of Beneficence|0|-|-|-

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Lay on Hands (dazzled, diseased, poisoned, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened or nauseated.), Indomitable Zeal|1|-|-|-

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Blade of Virtue|1|-|-|-

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Immunity to Ability Drain, Greater Smite|1|0|-|-|-

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Lay on Hands (ability damage, blindness, deafness and paralysis)|1|0|-|-

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Smite Evil 3/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (75%), Aura of Beneficence (Circle of Protection against Evil), Scouring Light|1|1|0|-

11th|
+11/6/1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Celestial Mount|1|1|1|-

12th|
+12/7/2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Lay on Hands (confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened, stunned, Raise Dead), Immunity to Death magic, and magical death effects, Indomitable Zeal (Delay Death)|1|1|1|-

13th|
+13/8/3|
+8|
+4|
+8|None|1|1|1|-

14th|
+14/9/4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Blade of Virtue (Undead and Outsider Bane), Greater Smite (Improved)|2|1|1|0

15th|
+15/10/5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Smite Evil 4/Encounter, Lay on Hands (Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Break Enchantment, Ressurection), Divine Aegis (Spell Resistance)|2|1|1|1

16th|
+16/11/6/1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Immunity to Energy Drain|2|2|1|1

17th|
+17/12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10|None|2|2|2|1

18th|
+18/13/8/3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Lay on Hands (Permanant Level Drain, Regenerate, True Ressurection), Indomitable Zeal (Immunity to Mind Affecting Effects and Abilities)|3|2|2|1

19th|
+19/14/9/4|
+11|
+6|
+11|None|3|3|3|2

20th|
+20/15/10/5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Smite Evil 5/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (100%), Immunity to Negative Energy effects and damage, Aura of Beneficence (Holy Aura), Greater Smite (Improved Again)|3|3|3|3[/table]


I love the class. Though I think this might end up a little higher than tier 3 - if only for its ability to nullify most effects hitting the party.

Also, say someone in the party is hit by an effect the Paladin is immune to. Can the Paladin use Gift of the Martyr to absorb it to him/herself, and then.. be immune to it?
Or do such Immunities only effect the thing targeting the Paladin?

Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 04:05 PM
Haha, a rather verbose summation for a table, if accurate (well, with the exception of these unidentified "class abilities"). Aren't the detailed sub-components of an ability, or an upgraded ability usually excluded?

vampire2948
2009-12-03, 04:06 PM
Haha, a rather verbose summation for a table, if accurate. Aren't the detailed sub-components of an ability, or an upgraded ability usually excluded?

Usually - Yes.

But this is a Homebrew forum, not a rulebook.

I thought it'd be useful for people to see when and where the class got upgrades. Without having to look through the text and piece it together in their minds - Which could be difficult with the large amount of upgrades this class has.

EDIT - Removed the Class Ability placeholders.

Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 04:08 PM
Sure, for the purposes of at a glance review, it's useful, although when I plot out such tables, I think it better to substitute detail with numerals, as this communicates an upgrade while minimizing visual clutter.

EDIT: Don't get the wrong idea though, I do appreciate the summation you've put together.

vampire2948
2009-12-03, 04:10 PM
Sure, for the purposes of at a glance review, it's useful, although when I plot out such tables, I think it better to substitute detail with numerals, as this communicates an upgrade while minimizing visual clutter.

EDIT: Don't get the wrong idea though, I do appreciate the summation you've put together.

Mm.. well.. feel free to adapt the table as you wish. Or copy it into your first post. I will remove it from my post in that event.

Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 04:20 PM
I love the class. Though I think this might end up a little higher than tier 3 - if only for its ability to nullify most effects hitting the party.

Also, say someone in the party is hit by an effect the Paladin is immune to. Can the Paladin use Gift of the Martyr to absorb it to him/herself, and then.. be immune to it?
Or do such Immunities only effect the thing targeting the Paladin?

Thanks :). Yes. This is an intentional synergy. Gift of the Martyr can absorb effects the Paladin is immune to, which in turn will dissipate harmlessly when his allies suffer unto him.

vampire2948
2009-12-03, 04:21 PM
Cool.

I was thinking of writing my own Paladin-fix. But my idea involved Marshal auras and such.

Your Gift of the Martyr thing is more original and interesting. :smallsmile:

Temotei
2009-12-03, 06:05 PM
Huh. Just have to say my class has an ability called scouring light too. Hehe. And the concept is similar to paladin. It's like a monk-paladin. :smallamused: It's in my signature if you want to see it. (Radiant Monk)

I'll read through the class later, when I want to read a lot. :smallbiggrin:

Roderick_BR
2009-12-03, 06:18 PM
I like this paladin. He gets the smite/encounter and the strong will save that always deserved. I see he got some effects similar to some divine feats (technically, getting bonus divine feats), some interesting resistances/immunities, and can enchange the party's resistances as well.
Still, doesn't look overpowered. He got some strong features, but clerics and druids could still do worse, and I think it's on par with a warblade.

Nice job. This is a version I'd love to try out myself.

Ouranos
2009-12-03, 07:03 PM
noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-03, 07:06 PM
noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.

And that, ladies and Gentlemen, is how dynasties are born :).

Temotei
2009-12-03, 07:08 PM
And that, ladies and Gentlemen, is how dynasties are born :).

Ha. I'd rather just eat the king's family. Then I'd win! :smallbiggrin:

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-03, 07:22 PM
can someone point me towards a list of the class tiers? People keep mentioning it as if it's common knowledge but google hasn't thrown me a bone...

Mando Knight
2009-12-03, 07:29 PM
noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.

Burn Turn Undead attempts. At level 20 with 20 Charisma, you'll need to torch 7. (20x5 base heal points, +7x5x20 from turn undead for 800 total) A 20th level, 18 Cha paladin needs the Extra Turning feat to gain 9 attempts to use for the same purpose. Since it's roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell, it kinda makes sense that only an 18+ Cha paladin could use the ability by level 20.

Temotei
2009-12-03, 07:34 PM
can someone point me towards a list of the class tiers? People keep mentioning it as if it's common knowledge but google hasn't thrown me a bone...

Class tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Roderick_BR
2009-12-03, 08:09 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.

Mando Knight
2009-12-03, 08:48 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.

Currently, it burns through nearly all of the character's turn undead and healing resources for the day to use True Resurrection, and requires an extremely high Charisma. Raise Dead and Resurrection are easier, though they still cost a lot of healing potential.

Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 08:49 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.

I do empathize with your apprehension. Perhaps including an addendum that using Lay on Hands to perform a True Resurrection can only be done once per week (or other increment of time) may be needed here. How does everyone else feel about the capability?



Burn Turn Undead attempts. At level 20 with 20 Charisma, you'll need to torch 7. (20x5 base heal points, +7x5x20 from turn undead for 800 total) A 20th level, 18 Cha paladin needs the Extra Turning feat to gain 9 attempts to use for the same purpose. Since it's roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell, it kinda makes sense that only an 18+ Cha paladin could use the ability by level 20.

Aye, this is precisely how it's meant to work.

Temotei
2009-12-03, 08:55 PM
I'm agreeing that true resurrection could be abused.

dangerprawn
2009-12-03, 10:15 PM
I like the concept behind the revision. The idea of sharing more of the Paladin's divine protection is a neat idea. A lot of thought and work went into this revision, and I think it's creative, and I like the ideas behind it.

The class as written is vastly overpowered.

Auras

The new Paladin gets 4 types of Auras that he or she shares with the party members. Here is a list of what the Auras protect the party from, automattically once the appropriate level is reached, as that all the Auras can be active simultaneously. If I have misread and the Paladin must choose which Aura to be active, I apologize for misinterpreting.

Aura Effects (Protect vs or Add to....)
Fear
Ability Drain
Death Magic
Energy Drain
Negative Energy Damage
Vile Damage
Profane Damage
AC vs touch, vs incorporeal touch
Spell Resistance
Poison
Disease
Exhaustion
Fatigue
Mind Affecting Effects

Granted, they are not all gained at once. There is a level progression. But even still, that there alone outshines the Marshall, the class that is all about Auras. The Marshall (IIRC) can only project 2 Auras; The Paladin get's 4, and the benefits offered are far superior.

To balance this I would scale the Auras according to the Marshalls progression. Instead of using Paladin class level + Charisma modifier as the bonus, it's a flat +1, +2, +3, etc, just as the Marshall.

Second, change it so that only 1 or 2 Auras can be active at a single time. I think it should be just 1, but having any kind of limit is better than no limit. This Paladin outshines the Marshall in the Marshalls core ability, and this Paladin has tons of other stuff as well.

Gift of the Martyr

This is essentially a Persistent Shield Other spell, the equivalent of an 8th level spell effect. The Paladin can have his or her class level in Gift of the Martyr's active. At 3rd level that is 3 8th level spell effects, for no cost in resources (aside from HP) to the Paladin.

I like the idea of this. I would change it to a single Gift of the Martyr at one time to balance it some.

Divine Providence

A standard Paladin could easily have a +3 Charisma modifier at 4th level. This ability would then give that Paladin:

DR 7
+7 AC
SR 7
+7 Saves
Evasion, Mettle of Fortitude, Mettle of Will
2d20 rolls

Compare that to the feat in PHBII Divine Fortune, which the Paladin could take at 5th level, which grants a static +4 to a single saving throw.

I would rewrite Divine Providence to mimic the Divine Feats in the PHBII, with a single Turn Undead expenditure granting the Paladin only one of the effects at a time.

Blade of Virtue

A +5 weapon enhancement (not counting the base enhancement bonus increase) that lasts for minutes and stacks with the current magical properties of the weapon.

I would change it to select a single ability for a number of rounds equal the Paladin's level.

Lay on Hands

I like the idea of making Lay on Hands more useful. But having True Res and Raise Dead is too powerful. I would suggest mimicking the Touch of Vitality ability of the Dragon Shaman to be able to remove condition effects.


Overall I like the ideas and concepts behind the revision; my critiques are only with the game balance issues. Hope this helped.

Surrealistik
2009-12-03, 10:58 PM
While I appreciate the feedback, I think the fix's relative superiority to certain decidedly underpowered classes, feats and abilities colours your perception. There are also some portions of the fix which appear to be misinterpreted.

However, I must reiterate and emphasize first and foremost that the core purpose of the fix is to put the Paladin on solid, 3rd tier footing, and make it something worth pure classing.


Auras: Concerning the auras, the benefit provided is not equal to class level + Charisma modifier, but the greater of 1, or the Paladin's Charisma modifier, with a maximum bonus equal to the Paladin's class level. For example, a level 4 Paladin with a Charisma score of 20 would only bestow a bonus of 4 to allies within the radius of the aura, rather than his Charisma modifier of 5, as his class level of 4 is the maximum bonus any aura can yield. I will clarify the language so that this is more apparent.

While I agree that the class is solidly better at auras than the Marshal, I do not think that is itself necessarily a bad thing; the Marshal is a fairly uncompetitive class in an objective sense.

As for a limit on auras, I'm receptive to the idea, but I think any limit should scale with the class level, with all auras being simultaneously usable by 20.


Gift of the Martyr: While I can see the case that this ability is frontloaded, it is basically the centerpiece of the fix that defines the new paladin, and necessarily warrants a fast and strong onset. Reducing the attunement capacity is an idea, but it should definitely scale with class level. I would be interested in hearing other thoughts on this.


Divine Providence: It's a strong ability, but very short lived, and requires an expenditure of a Turn Undead attempt.

Further, to clarify, the save roll allows you to roll 2d20, and select the roll of your choice, not add both to the result.

As for Divine Fortune, it's a rather subpar feat which makes it something of an irrelevant comparison.

The idea of choosing one of the enhancements is certainly something that's worth consideration. I would like to hear the feedback of others on this.


Blade of Virtue: The enhancement bonus against evil does not actually stack with existing enhancement bonuses, though it does overlap with them.


Lay on Hands: I disagree that Raise Dead and Resurrection are outright too powerful to have as part of the ability, especially with their level scaling and healing point costs. However, I do think that they might benefit from a substantial delay before additional uses. This is another possible adjustment I'd appreciate feedback on.

dangerprawn
2009-12-03, 11:46 PM
Auras:

That's what I get for trying to speed read. The flat Charisma bonus is certainly reasonable. Regarding the usefulness of Aura's, there are other examples of Aura's being used that are close in power to the Marshalls, such as the Draconic Aura's from Dragon magic or the Dragon Shamans Aura's.

I think having Aura's significantly more powerful than these (Dragon Shamans, etc) adds to unbalancing the class, given that the class (Paladin) has additional powerful abilities as well.

I think a progression of projecting multiple Aura's would be fine.

Gift

To have the ability scale, perhaps add 1 additional target every 5 levels? That would be targets at 3,8,11,16, and then you could fudge it (making it every 4 levels) to add a 5th target at 20th level.

Providence

My intention of comparing it to the Divine feat was to point out that the other Divine feats only do a specific thing. There are a number of such feats that allow you to burn a turn undead for some type of bonus, and if I remember correctly they all only affect a single thing. Some of them are pretty good feats, at least in my opinion.

That's what I meant. I think the ability does too much at a single time.


I still think the Blade and Lay on Hands are overpowered, due to what they actually are (free +5 or more weapon) and because they are way more powerful than already established guidelines for handling such things (Dragon Shamans Touch of Vitality).

I still think it's a neat concept, but I just disagree on the power scale.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-04, 12:12 AM
Gift of the Martyr: As it stands, I agree with Dangerprawn. I think it is incredibly overpowered. Using an ability like this on something like a Warforged Paladin has the ability to make useless an entire set of abilities.

How about something more like granting an AC Bonus that replaces their base Armor. That way it is more useful the less armored the character in question, fitting the abilities purposes.

averagejoe
2009-12-04, 12:36 AM
Neat ideas here. A couple nitpicks, though.


At the 12th class level lay on hands can remove the confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened and stunned conditions. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 100 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Raise Dead spell.

So, how much healing does it take to remove confused, cowering, etc? Same with the lay on hands uses at other levels. This could be more clearly worded.


and regenerate lost and severed body members as per the Regenerate spell.

Sooo, he can only regenerate penises? :smallamused:

Surrealistik
2009-12-04, 10:58 AM
Gift of the Martyr: As it stands, I agree with Dangerprawn. I think it is incredibly overpowered. Using an ability like this on something like a Warforged Paladin has the ability to make useless an entire set of abilities.

How about something more like granting an AC Bonus that replaces their base Armor. That way it is more useful the less armored the character in question, fitting the abilities purposes.

Demolishes one of the core premises of the class, can't be countenanced. Even for a Warforged, it's not overpowered at low levels, though it is certainly stronger, given that the effects the class is immune to has only at maximum, a 50% chance of being passed on via the ability until level 10.



So, how much healing does it take to remove confused, cowering, etc? Same with the lay on hands uses at other levels. This could be more clearly worded.

Each condition requires 10 points of healing to remove. I will clarify.


Sooo, he can only regenerate penises?

Wording was directly taken from the Regenerate spell SRD entry, take it up with WotC :P.


Auras: Dragon Shaman is pretty underwhelming. Like the Marshal it's 4th tier at best, and not a good basis for comparison. Even many of its late/endgame abilities are superfluous by the time you get them. Probably the best thing I've seen is the Energy Immunity gained at level 9.

GotM: Again, the intent is to allow the Paladin to really attune to and be able to divert damage from the bulk of his party ASAP. Given his limited HP pool and healing at lower levels, even with a relatively high Charisma build I don't see it being that substantial an issue. If scaling must be done though, I would allow for one additional attunement every fourth class level after the third. Again, I would like feedback from others.

Providence: True, but class abilities tend to be altogether exceptional relative to vanilla feats which anyone can acquire for the reason that they're exclusive and usually require a substantial investment of character levels. Also, most Divine feats are lackluster or even clearly underpowered. Divine Fortune is only one such feat. Divine Shield, and Divine Might are perhaps two that can really be justified a slot; that's not an exclusive list, just what readily comes to mind off the top of my head.

Blade of Virtue: The enhancement bonus scales with level. The level you get it, it is unlikely to be much more than a +2 enhancement bonus versus Evil (which is not at all obscene for its level), besides its Holy and Axiomatic qualities that lasts about 10 minutes for a Turn Undead attempt.

Lay on Hands: As before, Dragon Shaman is not a good basis of comparison.

dangerprawn
2009-12-04, 12:37 PM
I think one of the issues you and I are having is based on a different understanding of what constitutes balanced vs overpowered. I don't mean that in a mean or accusatory manner; I mean to say that we may be approaching this from different perspectives.

I looked at the Tier 3 classes on the Tier system post. For general reference these are the classes, listed in the order of appearance. I think the order listed implies relative power among the Tier as well.

Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

What I would like to do, but don't have time to do right now, is to compare the abilities of the revised Paladin to the abilities of the above classes. I think that would allow me, at least, to approach the evaluation of the Paladin from a different perspective, perhaps one that is more in line with what you had in mind. Do you think that would be a fair way to evaluate your revision?

Surrealistik
2009-12-04, 02:01 PM
I think one of the issues you and I are having is based on a different understanding of what constitutes balanced vs overpowered. I don't mean that in a mean or accusatory manner; I mean to say that we may be approaching this from different perspectives.

I looked at the Tier 3 classes on the Tier system post. For general reference these are the classes, listed in the order of appearance. I think the order listed implies relative power among the Tier as well.

Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

What I would like to do, but don't have time to do right now, is to compare the abilities of the revised Paladin to the abilities of the above classes. I think that would allow me, at least, to approach the evaluation of the Paladin from a different perspective, perhaps one that is more in line with what you had in mind. Do you think that would be a fair way to evaluate your revision?

Absolutely. It's also important to keep in mind how the class stacks against the 2nd tier immediately above it.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-04, 03:54 PM
Absolutely. It's also important to keep in mind how the class stacks against the 2nd tier immediately above it.

Balencing things against the Second Tier is pointless.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are inhernetly unbalenced. Tier 1 can do everything, with infinite power. Tier 2 can do one thing, but it is strong enough that it makes doing anything else pointless.

You can't balence against them.

Surrealistik
2009-12-04, 03:58 PM
Balencing things against the Second Tier is pointless.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are inhernetly unbalenced. Tier 1 can do everything, with infinite power. Tier 2 can do one thing, but it is strong enough that it makes doing anything else pointless.

You can't balence against them.

The point of comparing and contrasting to T2 is clearly to determine whether or not the object of comparison is truly unbalanced. If it's T2 competitive, it is unbalanced. If it is not T2 competitive, it is strong at best.

dangerprawn
2009-12-05, 12:05 AM
Primary thoughts on Tier 3 comparison: (not complete, just initial notes)

There are 11 classes in the Tier 3. Of these 11, 6 have access to 9th level Spells or Maneuvers. Let's call these 9th level abilities. That right there tells us something important, a warning sign perhaps, which is that we are going to rewrite a class that does not have access to 9th level abilities to compete on the same level with classes that do. These are the classes that I feel are the most powerful in Tier 3.

Of the classes that don't have 9th level abilities, the Bard has 6th level spells and Buffs as a class ability. The Duskblade has 5th level spells that complement it's full bab, favored fort and will, and other magic/combat related class abilities. The Wild Shape Ranger gets limited Wild Shape, 4th level spells, good skills, full bab, favored fort and reflex, and other abilities (good skills, evasion, etc). I'm not that familiar with the Factotum, but my understanding is that it can use a limited per encounter resource to duplicate other classes abilities.

For the purposes of the evaluation I'm going to leave the Factotum out because 1) I don't fully understand it, and 2) From what I do understand I don't know how you'd compare it to the standard classes. Last, I'm not sure what the Psionic Warrior is. Is that supposed to be the Psychic Warrior?

Another way to break down the grouping of Tier 3 is to place them in categories, such as Combat, Magic, & Support. I would place the Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Ranger, and Duskblade in the Combat category. Beguiler, Binder, and Dread Necromancer are in the Magic category. Bard and Factotum are Support.

I think the revised Paladin would fit in a combination Combat/Support role. A lot of the new abilities provide protection to other characters, and this would fall into the Support classification. However, some of them are strictly offensive, like the Blade of Virtue and Scouring Light. These abilities, along with the standard combat prowess of the Paladin, place it in the Combat category.

So we can evaluate the defensive and supportive aspects of the revision according to the abilities of the Bard and Factotum, and the offensive aspects of the revision according to the abilities of Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Ranger, and Duskblade.

These are just my initial thoughts on how to evaluate the abilities. What follows next will be an examination of the abilities themselves, looking for comparisons between these classes, and at similar abilities using the same mechanics (lay on hands healing, burning turn undeads for X ability, etc).

edit:
Addendum: It appears that an understanding of the Factotum will be necessary, so I'll have to research that. If someone is already familiar with that class and wants to help, that would be nice.

Also, it occurred to me that some of the Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers/stances could be considered Support, so the Paladins support abilities will have to be compared to those as well.

dangerprawn
2009-12-05, 12:28 PM
Divine Providence

Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt to gain damage reduction, and a bonus to his AC, SR and all saves equal to his class level and Charisma modifier as a Free Action. This ability can be used in response to any attack, spell, event or effect, but its use must be declared before any rolls are made. If the Paladin succeeds on any save that normally has a partial effect on a success, it instead has no effect. The Paladin may opt to roll 2d20 for any saving roll made while Divine Providence is active, selecting the outcome of his choice.

The effects of this ability last until the end of the Paladin's next turn.

There are three game balance issues I see with this ability. The first is the nature of the bonus; it is the sum of levels in Paladin and the Charisma modifier. The second is the ability to roll 2d20's for the save. The third is the ability affecting multiple aspects at once.

The first level this ability is available, it is not inconceivable to have a total modifier for this ability equal to +7 (+4 from level, +3 from Charisma modifier). In contrast to a similar ability gained at similar levels by the Swordsage, the Zephyr Dance counter is a 3rd level maneuver that grants a static +4 AC vs a single attack. Available one level before a martial adept could access that maneuver, Divine Providence already offers a better bonus for the same duration of the ability.

Likewise, the feat Divine Armor grants a static DR 5/-- for a single turn when utilizing the same mechanic as Divine Providence, and the feat is not available until a level after Divine Providence comes into play. Furthermore, the feat requires a divine caster level of 5, which a Paladin would not have until 10th level. So Divine Providence is more powerful and comes into play far earlier than Divine Armor would for a normal Paladin.

To replicate the dual d20 rolls, we can look at two separate ablities. There is the feat Survivors Luck that allows an immediate action reroll of a failed saving throw, and the 5th level maneuever Iron Heart Focus allows the same with the additional caveat that the second roll must be taken even if it's worse.

The luck feat requires character level 9, and the manuever cannot be learned until level 10. So again, Divine Providence comes into play far earlier than these abilities that only replicate a single aspect of Divine Providence, and do so worse than Divine Providence, in that they do not provide a bonus on the roll, and one of the abilities requires you to take the lower roll.

Another aspect of Divine Providence that can replicated with a manuever, and perhaps my biggest concern with the ability, is the numerical value of the bonus. The 8th level maneuver Diamond Defense offers a bonus on a saving throw equal to the character's initiator level. Even here, however, Divine Providence is better than Diamond Defense because Divine Providence is not just Paladin level, but Paladin level plus Charisma modifier. Diamond Defense is not available until 15th level.


If we were to combine all these abilities into a single ability, the Divine Armor feat, Zephyr Dance, Iron Heart Focus, & Diamond Defense, the Paladin's Divine Providence ability would still be better, because it offers the same bonus to the different aspects (AC, DR, SR, & Saves) at the same time, all for the cost an immediate action and a turn undead attempt.


My recommendation:

- Change the bonus to Charisma modifier.
- Have the Paladin choose a single ability to be affected per activation.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 01:00 PM
Divine Providence


There are three game balance issues I see with this ability. The first is the nature of the bonus; it is the sum of levels in Paladin and the Charisma modifier. The second is the ability to roll 2d20's for the save. The third is the ability affecting multiple aspects at once.

The first level this ability is available, it is not inconceivable to have a total modifier for this ability equal to +7 (+4 from level, +3 from Charisma modifier). In contrast to a similar ability gained at similar levels by the Swordsage, the Zephyr Dance counter is a 3rd level maneuver that grants a static +4 AC vs a single attack. Available one level before a martial adept could access that maneuver, Divine Providence already offers a better bonus for the same duration of the ability.

Likewise, the feat Divine Armor grants a static DR 5/-- for a single turn when utilizing the same mechanic as Divine Providence, and the feat is not available until a level after Divine Providence comes into play. Furthermore, the feat requires a divine caster level of 5, which a Paladin would not have until 10th level. So Divine Providence is more powerful and comes into play far earlier than Divine Armor would for a normal Paladin.

To replicate the dual d20 rolls, we can look at two separate ablities. There is the feat Survivors Luck that allows an immediate action reroll of a failed saving throw, and the 5th level maneuever Iron Heart Focus allows the same with the additional caveat that the second roll must be taken even if it's worse.

The luck feat requires character level 9, and the manuever cannot be learned until level 10. So again, Divine Providence comes into play far earlier than these abilities that only replicate a single aspect of Divine Providence, and do so worse than Divine Providence, in that they do not provide a bonus on the roll, and one of the abilities requires you to take the lower roll.

Another aspect of Divine Providence that can replicated with a manuever, and perhaps my biggest concern with the ability, is the numerical value of the bonus. The 8th level maneuver Diamond Defense offers a bonus on a saving throw equal to the character's initiator level. Even here, however, Divine Providence is better than Diamond Defense because Divine Providence is not just Paladin level, but Paladin level plus Charisma modifier. Diamond Defense is not available until 15th level.


If we were to combine all these abilities into a single ability, the Divine Armor feat, Zephyr Dance, Iron Heart Focus, & Diamond Defense, the Paladin's Divine Providence ability would still be better, because it offers the same bonus to the different aspects (AC, DR, SR, & Saves) at the same time, all for the cost an immediate action and a turn undead attempt.


My recommendation:

- Change the bonus to Charisma modifier.
- Have the Paladin choose a single ability to be affected per activation.

Feats defy comparability due to the fact that they are typically less powerful (besides many of options of comparison here being inherently underwhelming) due to the relative ease of accessibility.

The Charisma modifier as a bonus alone makes it too weak for what is a fairly involved, non-dip class ability. At worst, half the class level should be added to the Charisma modifier.

I can agree on choosing one bonus, but save rerolls, and partial outcome mitigation would and should apply in conjunction with the save bonus.

dangerprawn
2009-12-05, 01:15 PM
Feats defy comparability due to the fact that they are typically less powerful due to the relative ease of accessibility.

The Charisma modifier as a bonus alone makes it too weak for what is a fairly involved, non-dip class ability. At worst, half the class level should be added to the Charisma modifier.

I can agree on choosing one bonus, but save rerolls, and partial outcome mitigation would and should apply in conjunction with the save bonus.

I included the feat, Divine Armor, in there to further express the fact that Divine Providence as a single ability is better than if you were combine 3 separate maneuvers and a feat. Those 3 abilities come from classes in Tier 3, therefore the ability should be comparable to the abilities of other Tier 3 classes instead of outstripping them, even when combined.

If the bonus were flat Charisma modifier, this is what it would do. The Paladin would have the ability to add their Charisma modifier to his or her Armor Class, Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, or all three Saving Throws, on the fly as an immediate action, and allows a second d20 roll.

One of the Paladin's core abilities, Divine Grace, adds the Paladin's Charisma modifier to all saving throws. My revision of the ability turns it into an adaptable Divine Grace, even allowing the doubling of Charisma bonus to saves. I find it hard to believe that such an ability can be considered weak, when many people dip into Paladin for 2 levels just to get Divine Grace in it's unadaptable form.

Surrealistik
2009-12-05, 01:26 PM
I included the feat, Divine Armor, in there to further express the fact that Divine Providence as a single ability is better than if you were combine 3 separate maneuvers and a feat. Those 3 abilities come from classes in Tier 3, therefore the ability should be comparable to the abilities of other Tier 3 classes instead of outstripping them, even when combined.

If the bonus were flat Charisma modifier, this is what it would do. The Paladin would have the ability to add their Charisma modifier to his or her Armor Class, Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, or all three Saving Throws, on the fly as an immediate action, and allows a second d20 roll.

One of the Paladin's core abilities, Divine Grace, adds the Paladin's Charisma modifier to all saving throws. My revision of the ability turns it into an adaptable Divine Grace, even allowing the doubling of Charisma bonus to saves. I find it hard to believe that such an ability can be considered weak, when many people dip into Paladin for 2 levels just to get Divine Grace in it's unadaptable form.

Divine Grace has several important advantages over Providence. One major one is that it is continuous. Another major one is that it requires no Turn Undead expenditures. Further, it has a significantly lower class level requirement. All of these elements render my rebalanced Providence on roughly even footing with Divine Grace.

Surrealistik
2009-12-08, 02:05 PM
Made extensive revisions to Blade of Virtue, and Providence.

Talya
2010-01-03, 09:29 AM
Starting at the 10th class level, he emits a continuous Circle of Protection Against Evil effect.

Starting at the 18th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Mind Affecting spells and abilities.

Such is the Paladin's inner strength and vitality that it radiates outwards from his being, a potent spiritual essence that infuses his allies with a measure of his divine resilience. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet receive a bonus on all saves against Poison, Disease, Exhaustion, Fatigue and Mind Affecting spells and effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.
Just want to point out the overlap there...circle of protection (any alignment) already renders one immune to to any form of mind control or influence. Sure, there are more mind affecting spells that it doesn't stop, but that's the big one right

I'm not a big fan of immunity to mind affecting spells in general. Enchantments get shafted that way. Yeah, I know, arcane casters don't need the lovin', but enchantment is a nice fun school, or would be, if immunity to it weren't so easy for everyone to get. Of course, that cat's already out of the bag, and not much one can do about it.

Surrealistik
2010-01-04, 05:20 PM
Just want to point out the overlap there...circle of protection (any alignment) already renders one immune to to any form of mind control or influence. Sure, there are more mind affecting spells that it doesn't stop, but that's the big one right

I'm not a big fan of immunity to mind affecting spells in general. Enchantments get shafted that way. Yeah, I know, arcane casters don't need the lovin', but enchantment is a nice fun school, or would be, if immunity to it weren't so easy for everyone to get. Of course, that cat's already out of the bag, and not much one can do about it.

There's a little bit of overlap, but the protections afforded by PFE are substantially different from actual Mind Affecting immunity. As for the immunity itself, by the time you get it, it's generally likely your party has ready access to it in the form of a spell or item anyways.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-11, 05:17 PM
There are a few things I wanted to ask. (the mods gave me permission. No need to report this)

1. When you kill something with Scouring light is the disintegration automatic or do you get to choose?
2. Can you use Scouring light multiple times with higher BAB?
3. Is the damage of the ray version of scouring light halved on a succesful save or just the damage of the area version?
4. is the immunity to fatigue and exhaustion just for spells or immune to it period?

I also question the use of divine aegis providing half the SR to your allies. It doesn't seem like it'll ever be high enough to matter for your allies. At the point in the campaign that I'll get it my allies will get at most 16 which means almost any spellcaster we face automatically succeeds.

Also, is there any specific reason you got rid of the remove disease? I don't really care or miss it I just wanted to know.

Surrealistik
2010-06-17, 10:45 PM
1. When you kill something with Scouring light is the disintegration automatic or do you get to choose?

Automatic.


2. Can you use Scouring light multiple times with higher BAB?

No. While it employs a ranged touch attack, each use requires a Standard Action.


3. Is the damage of the ray version of scouring light halved on a succesful save or just the damage of the area version?

No, just the area version's damage is halved on a successful save. Succeeding on the save versus the ray version results in the target being Dazzled rather than Stunned.


4. is the immunity to fatigue and exhaustion just for spells or immune to it period?

Period.


I also question the use of divine aegis providing half the SR to your allies. It doesn't seem like it'll ever be high enough to matter for your allies. At the point in the campaign that I'll get it my allies will get at most 16 which means almost any spellcaster we face automatically succeeds.

While that's true, the SR remains effective against items and scrolls. That said though, I've added a paragraph to Divine Aegis that allows you to expend Turn Undead attempts as a Free Action in order to bolster the AC or SR bonuses provided by it.



Also, is there any specific reason you got rid of the remove disease? I don't really care or miss it I just wanted to know.

It just seemed totally periphery and unnecessary, especially with the improved Lay on Hands.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-17, 10:55 PM
Thank you for the answers.:smallsmile:

Now, I just have to make sure my group doesn't get mad when I disintegrate the red dragon we're facing. (only reliable way to hit the darn thing.:smallannoyed:)

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 10:14 AM
Hey no problem man, glad to see someone's making use of my homebrew. Let me know how the class is working out! I'd really appreciate the feedback, as well as recommendations for things to change/improve based on usage.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-18, 10:58 AM
If I can throw in my 2 cents,

Assuming it doesn't overpower the class, why not change the Smite Evil mechanic from 3.5's version to Pathfinder's?

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 11:11 AM
If I can throw in my 2 cents,

Assuming it doesn't overpower the class, why not change the Smite Evil mechanic from 3.5's version to Pathfinder's?

How does that work?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-18, 11:31 AM
How does that work?



Smite Evil (Su)

Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

There you go.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-18, 02:53 PM
Hey no problem man, glad to see someone's making use of my homebrew. Let me know how the class is working out! I'd really appreciate the feedback, as well as recommendations for things to change/improve based on usage.

It's working out fairly well so far. I Can't use it to its full potential because I'm playing with an archer ranger and a Monk but it's been good so far. Although, I think our Monk is questioning his class choice about now. Here's hoping he chooses something so that I can use this class to its full potential.

Once we do reach level 15 (Which will be a while) I'll inform you of how divine aegis goes.

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 03:45 PM
There you go.

I like the bypassing of Damage Reduction, and double damage versus Evil Outsiders and Undead. The latter will be introduced at the first class level, the former will be gained at the fourth (supplanting part of the benefits of Greater Smite at the 8th).



It's working out fairly well so far. I Can't use it to its full potential because I'm playing with an archer ranger and a Monk but it's been good so far. Although, I think our Monk is questioning his class choice about now. Here's hoping he chooses something so that I can use this class to its full potential.

Once we do reach level 15 (Which will be a while) I'll inform you of how divine aegis goes.

Yeah, I can see how some of the core abilities would prove less than stellar given the relative lack of squishies; definitely hope the Monk decides on a reroll.

As for the update at L15, I'm looking forward to it. Be sure to keep me posted on notable developments/observations in the interim though!

Mystic Muse
2010-06-18, 04:26 PM
I must say, I do enjoy gift of the martyr and divine aegis. I haven't had much chance to use divine providence or blade of virtue yet. In the current battle it's just more cost effective to use Scouring light. Greater smite has been useful.

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 06:41 PM
Yeah, DP is more of a panic button, and not intended for regular use; Blade of Virtue not seeing play is a little more problematic. That said, keep in mind that BoV becomes more efficient as you level, as each expenditure of Turn Undead counts as an additional one per every 3 levels beyond the 7th for the purpose of imbuing effects.


Not that this addresses BoV's issues, but I've also found that it makes sense to allow the Paladin to channel Scouring Light through his weapon:

Either version of Scouring Light may be channeled through a weapon or munition held by the Paladin as a Swift Action. A creature successfully struck by a weapon channeling Scouring Light suffers its effects as above, with the burst version of this ability centred on that creature. Hitting a creature in this way completely discharges Scouring Light, thus its effects do not apply to any further attacks made, unless reapplied as another Swift Action.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-18, 06:53 PM
Either version of Scouring Light may be channeled through a weapon or munition held by the Paladin as a Swift Action. A creature successfully struck by a weapon channeling Scouring Light suffers its effects as above, with the burst version of this ability centred on that creature. Hitting a creature in this way completely discharges Scouring Light, thus its effects do not apply to any further attacks made, unless reapplied as another Swift Action.

Do you have to hit with the weapon or is it both the weapon's attack and the touch attack? Or is the weapon's attack now a touch attack?

I've mostly just been channeling it through my eyes. Though I haven't told my DM or any of the players this. They'd kill me.

And the blade of virtue ability isn't bad. It's just not good when I can't hit the enemy on anything less than a 17.:smallannoyed:

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 06:59 PM
Do you have to hit with the weapon or is it both the weapon's attack and the touch attack? Or is the weapon's attack now a touch attack?

I've mostly just been channeling it through my eyes. Though I haven't told my DM or any of the players this. They'd kill me.

And the blade of virtue ability isn't bad. It's just not good when I can't hit the enemy on anything less than a 17.:smallannoyed:

You have to strike with the weapon which is a normal attack roll, but that said, there is a definite synergy between this and Smite Evil. Mind you this is only if you choose to channel Scouring Light's effect into your weapon (this isn't necessary).

Also, what kind of opponents have you been fighting that you need to roll so high to hit? O_o

Mystic Muse
2010-06-18, 07:00 PM
You have to strike with the weapon which is a normal attack roll, but that said, there is a definite synergy between this and Smite Evil.

Yes. Yes there is. Especially at 14th level.:smallbiggrin:


Also, what kind of opponents have you been fighting that you need to roll so high to hit? O_o

We're supposed to be facing a juvenile red dragon. However, this one apparently has 32 AC instead of 24. Don't know how that works. Maybe he has a magic item of some sort but I only have a +1 weapon so with BAB, A strength bonus of +5 and +1 enhancement bonus I have to roll a 17 to exceed his AC.

Rin_Hunter
2010-06-18, 07:22 PM
Hey, do you mind if I steal the /Encounter thing for my own version of the Paladin? I think this is an awesome idea. I'm not a fan of the double smite damage to Undead, but then again, I'm all for the Undead having equal alignment rights.

I was going through each ability point-by-point, but I have to say that I just love this class, but I think it's Tier 2, not Tier 3. Especially since this class is now extremely useful in solo games and can buff allies without even thinking about it.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-18, 07:26 PM
Hey, do you mind if I steal the /Encounter thing for my own version of the Paladin? I think this is an awesome idea. I'm not a fan of the double smite damage to Undead, but then again, I'm all for the Undead having equal alignment rights.

I was going through each ability point-by-point, but I have to say that I just love this class, but I think it's Tier 2, not Tier 3. Especially since this class is now extremely useful in solo games and can buff allies without even thinking about it.

I don't think the class is that powerful

Rin_Hunter
2010-06-19, 01:47 PM
I don't think the class is that powerful

If you look at it, it was a lot of immunities, can take damage for allies and can also absorb attacks that cause negative conditions and then be immune to the condition. Plus it can spread good will for all (allies anyway) with the aura effects.

Any party will want one and enough spread across the front lines of an army means that evil doesn't stand a chance.

I'm just saying that I do think its powerful. On the Tier thread it gives the Tier three examples as "Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior." I think this outstrips most of them.

Tier 2 is: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges). This feels like the right sort of power level for this class. May just be me.

Surrealistik
2010-06-19, 02:17 PM
If you look at it, it was a lot of immunities, can take damage for allies and can also absorb attacks that cause negative conditions and then be immune to the condition. Plus it can spread good will for all (allies anyway) with the aura effects.

Any party will want one and enough spread across the front lines of an army means that evil doesn't stand a chance.

I'm just saying that I do think its powerful. On the Tier thread it gives the Tier three examples as "Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior." I think this outstrips most of them.

Tier 2 is: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges). This feels like the right sort of power level for this class. May just be me.

I completely disagree that it is T2; high T3 maybe, but certainly not the former. For one, it clearly is not capable of breaking games (that's a requirement for being T2). Second while impressive defensively (that being its specialization), its offensive prowess is much more limited and situational, and it is generally an inflexible class. Compare and contrast this to the likes of the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. That any party would want one is a good thing, not necessarily indicative of brokenness.

Also, feel free to adopt the /Encounter mechanic.

Rin_Hunter
2010-06-19, 02:22 PM
I completely disagree that it is T2; high T3 maybe, but certainly not the former. For one, it clearly is not capable of breaking games (that's a requirement for being T2). Second while impressive defensively (that being its specialization), its offensive prowess is much more limited and situational, and it is generally an inflexible class. Compare and contrast this to the likes of the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. That any party would want one is a good thing, not necessarily indicative of brokenness.

Also, feel free to adopt the /Encounter mechanic.

I suppose. It just feels more like low 2 than high 3 to me. I've been wrong before.

And thankies~

Pechvarry
2010-06-19, 04:38 PM
So while this thread is active again, I'd like to take the opportunity to mention some stuff.

The auras all seem to have potency based on charisma as well as size based on charisma. I really think these abilities would sit a lot better with me if the aura size was simply based on class level. Like 5' per 2 class levels. Comparison: level 20 Paladin with 30 charisma under current system has a 55' aura. Level 20 paladin under level-only system has 100' aura. Scale down to 1/4th paladin level and you have 50' aura (if you really think 100' is too much). As you see, it's not a question of Charisma on both fronts being overpowered. Indeed, my fear is that games at a lower level of optimization or games with very low starting stats get much less out of the class.

Consider changing out some of the resurrection stuff with Revivy (Spell Compendium -- true resurrection on target who died within 1 round, target revived but stable at -1 hp). Perhaps with a change to "must have died within 1 round per paladin level."

Alternatively, you could simply add the relevant costly material components to the resurrection uses of lay on hands (25k in diamonds for true res, for instance).

Finally, I see a lot of free action stuff (Providence, the ally buff use of Aegis, probably some more) that could be made Immediate Actions. Did you play with that idea and find it too limiting to the Paladin? It seems like it'd make a more interesting dynamic than burning through everything he can do until he's out of daily juice.

---

As opposed to the Haitian in Heroes, this is a character with a whole bag of tricks to bring to the table and choose the tool for the task to shut down his opponents. I must say, if this could be portrayed well in fiction, it'd be most BA.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-19, 11:38 PM
So while this thread is active again, I'd like to take the opportunity to mention some stuff.

Consider changing out some of the resurrection stuff with Revivy (Spell Compendium -- true resurrection on target who died within 1 round, target revived but stable at -1 hp). Perhaps with a change to "must have died within 1 round per paladin level."

Alternatively, you could simply add the relevant costly material components to the resurrection uses of lay on hands (25k in diamonds for true res, for instance).


Well, keep in mind the cost of using true ressurection. 800 points worth of lay on hands. With just the base amount of turn undead bonuses at 20th level, and assuming you have a Charisma of 26 you only have 1920 healing points by expending all your turn undead attempts, and this is in addition to your normal amount of lay on hands healing. That means you can use it twice a day at most, and then you only have two turn undead attempts left. (if my math is correct. I'm tired so it may be wrong) granted, There are ways to get extra turn undead attempts but due to the amount of other class features fueled by them, you aren't going to be spending all your turn undead attempts on Lay on hands.

The only reason I have so many on my current character is because if I focused on dealing damage with my Paladin (Again) my group would hate me.

paddyfool
2010-06-21, 05:09 AM
Well, keep in mind the cost of using true ressurection. 800 points worth of lay on hands. With just the base amount of turn undead bonuses at 20th level, and assuming you have a Charisma of 26 you only have 1920 healing points by expending all your turn undead attempts, and this is in addition to your normal amount of lay on hands healing. That means you can use it twice a day at most, and then you only have two turn undead attempts left. (if my math is correct. I'm tired so it may be wrong) granted, There are ways to get extra turn undead attempts but due to the amount of other class features fueled by them, you aren't going to be spending all your turn undead attempts on Lay on hands.


Yes, it's costly in terms of what you can do that day. But that cost equates to zero with downtime. So if a party says "we do nothing for the next two days but stay in safe place X while the paladin resurrects the rogue and the bard", then you've made death even less of a handicap than it used to be. I quite like the revivify alternative, however - it fits very nicely with the whole battlefield medicine character of Lay on Hands.

Overall, this seems like a nice class, but I'm no expert on balance - it seems to me you'd want to run it by a ToB expert on a power comparison with the Crusader, the class to which it's probably the most similar.

jiriku
2010-06-21, 07:56 AM
I do see some loopholes that can be exploited/abused.

Lay on Hands: It looks like nothing prevents the paladin from proactively dumping Turn Undead attempts into LoH while the pool is full. This means that, for example, a paladin 5 with Cha 16 can deal 105 damage to an undead creature once per day. A paladin 10 with Cha 20 can deal 450 damage. A paladin 20 with Cha 24 can deal 1,540 damage.

I recognize that the ability is somewhat limited by requiring a touch attack, but effectively the paladin has, from level 5, the ability to one-shot any undead BBEG. The DM is effectively forced to use undead only as mooks. You could close this loophole by change this:

A Paladin may convert a use of Turn Undead into a number of Healing points for Lay on Hands equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma bonus as a Free Action.
To this:

A Paladin may expend a use of Turn Undead to refresh his Lay on Hands healing pool to its full maximum value as a Free Action.
This will require you to cost the resurrection abilities differently. I'd suggest you might add a caveat that the paladin can burn Turn Undead attempts as pool-equivalents, but only when raising a fallen ally.

Additionally, the ability to repeatedly activate true resurrection without XP or GP cost is a Tier 1 power, even at level 18. I'd recommend you tag it with an XP cost for the paladin.

Gift of the Martyr: This needs a little bit of explanation around the "non-damaging effects", or people will start to make IRON HEART SUUUUURGE jokes. As written, you can redirect the penalties for light sensitivity, the effects of drowning, heatstroke or frostbite, and many other very silly things. Also, if an ally is targeted with a spell that carries a non-damaging effect (say, implosion), is the effect transferred before or after the saving throw is rolled? If it's transferred after, I'm ok with that, but if it's transferred before, so that the paladin makes the save instead, that's a Tier 1 level power because of the synergy with Divine Providence.

Divine Aegis: Improving the ability for allies should have an action cost. D&D is a game about taking actions, and all of the Tier 3 classes have to pay actions to activate their short-duration powers. I'd suggest a swift action is appropriate.

Greater Smite: OK, so, running numbers, a 14th-level paladin with Cha 22 can use greater smite against undead foes to gain +20 to hit and +40 to damage, bypassing DR/good and rolling 2d20 keep highest to hit, three times per encounter? This is balanced for an offensively oriented 14th level character, but the numbers are a little large for a defensively oriented character.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-21, 12:29 PM
To be honest, I don't think many players will use all of their turn undead attempts to do that unless they're that desperate. Just because an ability can be abused doesn't mean that players that are actually nice people will do so. I know I wouldn't burn a ton of attempts to kill an undead BBEG unless I had no other choice.

If you're going to remove one abusable thing from this class I'd say you'd have to do the same for other classes too.

I think you're right about this though Jiriku


Gift of the Martyr: This needs a little bit of explanation around the "non-damaging effects", or people will start to make IRON HEART SUUUUURGE jokes. As written, you can redirect the penalties for light sensitivity, the effects of drowning, heatstroke or frostbite, and many other very silly things. Also, if an enemy is targeted with a spell that carries a non-damaging effect (say, implosion), is the effect transferred before or after the saving throw is rolled? If it's transferred after, I'm ok with that, but if it's transferred before, so that the paladin makes the save instead, that's a Tier 1 level power because of the synergy with Divine Providence.

Surrealistik
2010-06-21, 03:09 PM
Lay on Hands:

Damage vs Undead/Evil Outsiders: The Paladin cannot expend more Healing Points in this way with any single use of Lay on Hands than his Charisma Modifier x his class level.

True Resurrection Effect: Now costs 500 XP per HD of the target to be resurrected, or the standard diamond is required, or the Paladin has to be in current and immediate possession of a powerful holy artifact of his patron deity.

Gift of the Martyr: Only non-damaging effects that can be cured or removed with the Lay on Hands ability may now be transferred with Gift of the Martyr.

Divine Aegis: I'm not convinced each increment of empowerment for allies should require a Swift Action; this seems too prohibitive.

Greater Smite: Defense is its keystone and specialization, but so is laying the conditional smack-down on evil aligned enemies, particularly undead and evil outsiders. I do not see an issue with the Paladin's capabilities here.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-22, 05:38 PM
I feel like the Paladin could use some new skills or maybe get more skills per level. For example, despite Strength being one of its most important stats, none of his skills have Strength as an ability modifier. I'd say at least give them jump,climb, and/or swim as class skills.

Surrealistik
2010-06-23, 09:13 AM
Agree. Added Jump and Climb to class skills.

jiriku
2010-06-23, 09:58 AM
Huh. Kyuubi has a good point. For that matter, you might do well to increase skills per level to 4. Thing is, the hallmark of a Tier 3 character is versatility. Spellcasters get versatility through their spell selection, but noncasters generally have to use skills to do it. Paladin spellcasting is really focused, and generally doesn't overlap much with the options provided by skills.

paddyfool
2010-06-23, 11:01 AM
I don't know... Paladins make sense to me as having a narrow, focused skill set, but being really good at it.

Maybe give them a slightly broader list, stick to 2+Int skills, but give them a class ability (or feat?) that allows them to burn a turn undead attempt to double their effective skill ranks for any single check. So when they really have to pull out an awesome speech, placate an oncoming horde, or ride a rampaging landshark, they can. They just can't do it all the time. (Also, it should scale with level nicely).

Mystic Muse
2010-06-23, 12:39 PM
I don't know... Paladins make sense to me as having a narrow, focused skill set, but being really good at it.

Maybe give them a slightly broader list, stick to 2+Int skills, but give them a class ability (or feat?) that allows them to burn a turn undead attempt to double their effective skill ranks for any single check. So when they really have to pull out an awesome speech, placate an oncoming horde, or ride a rampaging landshark, they can. They just can't do it all the time. (Also, it should scale with level nicely).

personally, I'd rather have two extra skill points per level so I'm not shoehorned into specific skills.

EDIT: I think the Paladin should also get detect good at some level. If the DM decides to use something like the succubus Paladin then your alignment is kind of screwed. Most Paladins wouldn't really trust evil outsiders.

Pechvarry
2010-06-23, 05:51 PM
Looking at tier 3s, they all have either MORE than 2+int skills/level OR a good chunk of spell power -- duskblade squeaks through with the "weakest" chassis having only 5th level spells and 2+int skills (as far as I know, they're the only full-BAB class with all knowledge skills as class skills, though).

On the one hand, that makes me say "they could really use the versatility of 4+int" but on the other, you may as well balance them around having 2+ skills. Dunno, up to Surrealistik.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-23, 06:10 PM
Looking at tier 3s, they all have either MORE than 2+int skills/level OR a good chunk of spell power -- duskblade squeaks through with the "weakest" chassis having only 5th level spells and 2+int skills (as far as I know, they're the only full-BAB class with all knowledge skills as class skills, though).

On the one hand, that makes me say "they could really use the versatility of 4+int" but on the other, you may as well balance them around having 2+ skills. Dunno, up to Surrealistik.

Allow the Paladin to get wizard spells like the feat "Sword of the arcane order" instead of Paladin spells or in addition to and you don't have to give them more skill points. But, that'd probably make the Paladin a higher tier.

ericgrau
2010-06-23, 06:32 PM
I had a detailed commentary but it boils down to the cha based bonuses all provide a large enough bonus to basically give immunity to everything for more times per day than you'll ever need.

Personally I don't believe in the tiers, and results like this only serve to reinforce that notion. When you have tiers based on versatility and yet you rename this to power levels, the response is phenomenal boosts to the power of "low tiers" yet without giving them more offensive versatility. Here we have an almost literally indestructible machine of death and yet you set down one wall of force or fly off and he's out of the way. So of course every paladin should now have winged boots and a cape of the mountebank for dimension door, or a friendly caster providing the same (teamwork? blasphemy!), but that's how it was with the original class anyway. The difference is now your only options are either to still be neutralized just as easily as before or to break the game. There is no longer anything left in between like there used to be in civil games of D&D.

Surrealistik
2010-06-23, 07:26 PM
I had a detailed commentary but it boils down to the cha based bonuses all provide a large enough bonus to basically give immunity to everything for more times per day than you'll ever need.

Personally I don't believe in the tiers, and results like this only serve to reinforce that notion. When you have tiers based on versatility and yet you rename this to power levels, the response is phenomenal boosts to the power of "low tiers" yet without giving them more offensive versatility. Here we have an almost literally indestructible machine of death and yet you set down one wall of force or fly off and he's out of the way. So of course every paladin should now have winged boots and a cape of the mountebank for dimension door, or a friendly caster providing the same (teamwork? blasphemy!), but that's how it was with the original class anyway. The difference is now your only options are either to still be neutralized just as easily as before or to break the game. There is no longer anything left in between like there used to be in civil games of D&D.

You seem to be ignoring Scouring Light which can be used as a targeted, AoE or single target Greater Dispelling, with an effectively uncapped caster level that doubles as direct damage versus evil targets, and shuts down most of the usual 'win buttons' previously effective versus the Paladin when coupled with LoH and his immunities. Here both the need for offensive versatility and 'shut down' countermeasures is addressed. Further offensive versatility is found in the Blade of Virtue properties. Smite Evil in the meanwhile allows the Paladin to deal with virtually any Evil opponent.

As to the Paladin being 'immune to everything' more often than needed, that really depends on the intensity of combat and the type of effects used. In actuality, the Paladin is vulnerable to many spells and effects, and his Turn Undead budget is pulled in a thousand different directions, being required for offense and defense alike; when subject to several challenging battles per day, _and_ using Gift of the Martyr to tank for your buddies, you're either going to run dry, or will have to prioritize and conserve.


As to the skill point issue, I don't mind giving Paladins 2 more SP per level. I don't see it breaking the class whatsoever.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-23, 09:27 PM
Glad to see so much new interest in your Paladin Surrealistik?

Surrealistik
2010-06-24, 06:00 PM
Don't mind it at all; were only my Spy/Sorc threads as responsive :P.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-24, 06:09 PM
Don't mind it at all; were only my Spy/Sorc threads as responsive :P.

well, I'll take a look at the sorceror. Got a link?

Surrealistik
2010-06-24, 06:38 PM
Link's in my sig.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-24, 08:16 PM
Okay, here's what I see about the Sorceror.

pros: nice abilities, actual thematic class features,
cons: The spells known list is still pretty abysmal compared to the wizard.

I like the eschew materials abilities.

Due to the spells known issue I can't really choose spells that are "Just for fun" with the Sorcerer if I want to be effective. I'm still inclined to choose wizard because of that. The Sorcerer is supposed to be a versatile class, but, due to low spells known, the wizard still beats it in versatility as far as I can tell, and versatility is the reason tier one classes are, well, tier one.

An example of this. Assuming I choose the collegiate wizard feat, I get 4 ninth level spells known. Add two to each level after that (6 8th, 8 7th ETC.) and, with first level spells, assuming I have 18 intelligence at first level I get 26 known. This is before any other modifiers outside of the wizard class and the collegiate wizard feat. I could also take the illusion mastery variant to get 18 extra illusion spells known or one of the domain variants to get 9 extra predetermined spells known. I also get every single cantrip ever printed. ignoring cantrips for a second that gives me 114 spells known before any outside suorces like other wizards. Even with the normal wizard you get over twice as many spells as the Sorcerer without any modifiers.



As a Sorcerer, I get 9 cantrips, 5 first and second level spells, 4 spells from 3-5th, and 3 from 6th-9th for a total of 43 spells known. I think I'm going to go with the wizard.

I'll ask a mod if I can put these critiques in the thread itself tomorrow.

Surrealistik
2010-06-27, 01:36 PM
Due to the spells known issue I can't really choose spells that are "Just for fun" with the Sorcerer if I want to be effective. I'm still inclined to choose wizard because of that. The Sorcerer is supposed to be a versatile class, but, due to low spells known, the wizard still beats it in versatility as far as I can tell, and versatility is the reason tier one classes are, well, tier one.

While it's true that the Sorcerer still lacks in versatility for the most part, this changes the moment his Mind's Desire ability comes into play at level 14, allowing him to convert spell slots into virtually any Arcane spell he desires.

Contest of Wills lets you pseudo diversify, turning your opponent's spells against them, whatever they might be. It is also an outlet for excess spell slots.

Lastly, the Sorcerer can now freely exchange as many spells he likes upon leveling, allowing him to completely redefine his spells known.


EDIT: Reworked Mind's Desire so that the Sorcerer can begin to use it at Level 7, but it requires 3 times the desired spell's level in total spell slot expenditure until Level 14.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-27, 09:32 PM
One last criticism of the Paladin class. Detect evil, as written, is beyond useless. How about at tenth level it tells you why the target is evil. Be it subtype, actions, or something else. It makes it possible to avoid killing succubus Paladins or something else that makes the person appear as evil. (Like Xykon's crown in OOTS.) At 17th (hey, you have to have something there) it bypasses alignment concealment.

Or some other level. I'm not sure what level bypassing alignment concealment is a valid option.

And to be clearer, it just tells you what the target does that makes it evil. Not each and every action that's affected it's alignment.

Surrealistik
2010-06-28, 05:18 PM
What I may do is improve the AoE and rapidity of Detect Evil, having its area and rapidity (so you don't have to focus for 3 rounds) upgrade incrementally with class level. Later on it will grant additional details (does the target have an Evil subtype or Taint? It probably shouldn't let you know why if only actions are the reason) and be able to penetrate alignment misdirecting/obfuscating spells and effects with a successful opposed caster level check, using the Paladin's class level and Wisdom modifier.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-28, 05:25 PM
Okay, that sounds good to me. I just figured it should actually be of some use or not exist.

Surrealistik
2010-06-30, 04:17 PM
Detect Evil now upgrades with class levels as follows:

At the 7th class level, the Paladin gains the ability to gauge the nature of a subject's evil much more clearly, while the range of his eldritch insight expands. With a fourth round of study, the Paladin is able to determine whether or not the target detects as Evil due to Taint, magic (including curses), personality and actions, and/or a subtype.
Finally, the range of Detect Evil increases by 30 feet plus 30 feet times the Paladin's Wisdom modifier (minimum 30 feet).

At the 11th class level, the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil becomes penetrating, shattering physical and mystical barriers alike to see through to the truth. The Paladin now makes an opposed caster level check using the total of his class level and Wisdom modifier as his caster level to penetrate illusions, spells and effects that obfuscate, redirect or block Detect Evil's alignment detection.
It furthermore is able pass through physical barriers much more effectively, penetrating two plus his Wisdom modifier (minimum 2) times the normal amount of material.

At the 17th class level, the Paladin's concentration and mastery of Detect Evil is such that he requires only one round of study to garner all information obtainable with it.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-23, 09:27 AM
One thing I noticed a little while ago. The Celestial template gives the mount Spell resistance. Depending on the mount, the Paladin may eventually become incapable of bypassing the spell resistance due to having a caster level equal to only one half their level. I just noticed that going to happen to my Paladin mount. It's due to a different source that's higher but I thought I'd bring it up.

Surrealistik
2011-05-26, 09:53 PM
One thing I noticed a little while ago. The Celestial template gives the mount Spell resistance. Depending on the mount, the Paladin may eventually become incapable of bypassing the spell resistance due to having a caster level equal to only one half their level. I just noticed that going to happen to my Paladin mount. It's due to a different source that's higher but I thought I'd bring it up.

Ah yes, fixed.

You can now choose to ignore your mount's spell resistance, and your mount gains the ability to share spells with you as if it had the familiar ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm).

Revisiting my 3.5 brew, so feel free to provide further recommendations/fixes.