[3.5] Generic Spellcaster to Generic Psion...

[Zovc]

Does anyone think any hoops are needed to jump through?

To me, it seems like you could just give the psion the Wilder's power progression, maybe take away disciplines (instead just let players choose those powers if they want to), and be done.

Does that seem fair, or should psions be a little more powerful than spellcasters?

[The Demented One]

Does anyone think any hoops are needed to jump through?

To me, it seems like you could just give the psion the Wilder's power progression, maybe take away disciplines (instead just let players choose those powers if they want to), and be done.

Does that seem fair, or should psions be a little more powerful than spellcasters?
..psions are not a little more powerful than spellcasters, and wilders are gimped even worse than the sorcerer. As long as you remember that you can never spend power points in excess of your manifester level, psions coast by right beneath arcane and divine casters.

[Zovc]

..psions are not a little more powerful than spellcasters, and wilders are gimped even worse than the sorcerer. As long as you remember that you can never spend power points in excess of your manifester level, psions coast by right beneath arcane and divine casters.

So, if you were making a "generic psion" (AKA removing disciplines and merging them with the 'generic class' system), you would make what changes?

[Nero24200]

If it's to go alongside the Generic Expert and Generic Warrior, I'd just use the PP progression and Max Level Progression, just remove the disciplines altogeter.

[Zovc]

If it's to go alongside the Generic Expert and Generic Warrior, I'd just use the PP progression and Max Level Progression, just remove the disciplines altogeter.

What about the Wilder (/Sorcerer)'s max level progression with the Psion's powers known?

Should discipline powers be removed, or just added to all psion's lists? Keep in mind that the Spellcaster can learn from more lists than a Sorcerer can.

Also, the spellcaster can cast off of any attribute (s)he wants, but is always considered to cast arcane spells. For the sake of qualifying for prestige classes (if they are used), the spells are also considered divine, but ASF always applies (unless mitigated with Armored Mage feats).

[erikun]

Start with Wilder, remove all class features except manifesting, allow powers from all disciplines and the psion/wilder list, allow using INT or CHA as the manifesting ability, give bonus feats at 1st level and every 5 levels. Done.

I don't see any problems with that, at least not right off hand.

[Bogardan_Mage]

So, if you were making a "generic psion" (AKA removing disciplines and merging them with the 'generic class' system), you would make what changes?
Increase the Discipline specific powers by 1 level each (for the 9th level powers, either don't allow them or nerf them in other ways, on a case by case basis). That brings them up to more or less their appropriate power level in terms of a generic manifester. There's really no need for any other changes that I can see.

[Arakune]

Start with Wilder, remove all class features except manifesting, allow powers from all disciplines and the psion/wilder list, allow using INT or CHA as the manifesting ability, give bonus feats at 1st level and every 5 levels. Done.

I don't see any problems with that, at least not right off hand.

Extreme lack of powers. The generic spellcaster is just a little bit weaker than is the sorcerer, and making the generic psionic class a worst psion hurts him even more. If you hate him that much just don't allow it.

[Pluto]

Isn't the Psion essentially Generic already? Just make the PWar, Lurk and Mantle powers fair game, let the manifester choose a stat and be done with it.

My group played with a Generic class system based off the Warblade, Psion and Factotum (kind of). Giving the Psion progression similar to a cross between the ToB mechanic and the Ardent (adding half of the non-Psion levels to Manifester level, using manifester level to determine the level of powers available, etc.) had very nice results. Every character had level-appropriate abilities, even the one whose player was determined to build a tangled multiclass mess.

[Draz74]

My group played with a Generic class system based off the Warblade, Psion and Factotum (kind of). Giving the Psion progression similar to a cross between the ToB mechanic and the Ardent (adding half of the non-Psion levels to Manifester level, using manifester level to determine the level of powers available, etc.) had very nice results. Every character had level-appropriate abilities, even the one whose player was determined to build a tangled multiclass mess.

I heard about this game once from another of your group members. I would be curious to see the Generic Factotum you guys used, if you don't mind.

[sonofzeal]

Extreme lack of powers. The generic spellcaster is just a little bit weaker than is the sorcerer, and making the generic psionic class a worst psion hurts him even more. If you hate him that much just don't allow it.

Generic Spellcaster is a Sorcerer with unrestricted access to Sor/Wiz PLUS Cleric PLUS Druid lists. That's.... kind of a big deal. Like, a huge one.

It also gets to choose its good save and its class skills, and gets unrestricted bonus feats off a really excellent list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats).

I'd argue that Generic Spellcaster is actually possibly the best caster in the game, right beside spell-to-power Erudite.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Generic Spellcaster is a Sorcerer with unrestricted access to Sor/Wiz PLUS Cleric PLUS Druid lists. That's.... kind of a big deal. Like, a huge one.

It also gets to choose its good save and its class skills, and gets unrestricted bonus feats off a really excellent list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats).

I'd argue that Generic Spellcaster is actually possibly the best caster in the game, right beside spell-to-power Erudite.
It still has a very limited number of spells known, though. I was under the impression this was the major drawback of the Sorcerer. Yes, cleric and druid spells are nice, but they'll be taking slots away from arcane spells.

[Pluto]

I heard about this game once from another of your group members. I would be curious to see the Generic Factotum you guys used, if you don't mind.


We had some trouble and it wound up being pretty complicated and on the weaker end as a standalone class.

It had a pool of Inspiration-like Insight/Ki/Luck Points that could be renewed with a minute of rest. An Expert could spend these poinsts to add its level + its primary attribute to any specific roll once per day. We did everything related to class levels in the ToB way: Expert level +1/2 other class levels.

After the first daily use of Points on a particular roll, a character could continue to spend Points on bonuses to that roll. But the later bonuses only added the Expert's primary attribute (but not level this time).

So a Charisma-based Expert might spend his Luck points for [Expert Level+Cha] on an Initiative roll, a Fortitude save, a Tumble check and a damage roll in one encounter. In later encounters, the player had to decide whether to spend a Luck point for a [+Cha] to the same rolls as he'd already used or to spend the points on a full [Expert Level+Cha] bonus to a new roll like a Jump check or a Grapple.

The goal was to encourage players to change their tactics between battles as the day progressed.

...Put that on the UA Expert frame and I think that was it. I might be wrong about some parts of this... it was a couple years ago.

In the end the class worked, but it might have been more because we tried to make it work than because it was balanced alongside Tome of Battle and Psionics.

[sonofzeal]

It still has a very limited number of spells known, though. I was under the impression this was the major drawback of the Sorcerer. Yes, cleric and druid spells are nice, but they'll be taking slots away from arcane spells.
Point. Knowstones help though, and it's nice to be able to use divine Scrolls of without a UMD check.



Hmmmm...... Divine Power + Polymorph + Righteous Might = ........?

[Arakune]

Point. Knowstones help though, and it's nice to be able to use divine Scrolls of without a UMD check.



Hmmmm...... Divine Power + Polymorph + Righteous Might = ........?

Wish + Miracle + Reality Revision?

Timestop + Fusion + Miracle?

Timestop + Miracle + ???

[KellKheraptis]

Generic Spellcaster + Sovereign Speaker makes me grin...tons and tons of spells known, and same with Rainbow Servant (3 or 4 domains that are mutable by the Adaptation section). And really, once you've got them as spells known, I don't see anything stopping you from swapping them out.