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Talbot
2009-12-03, 06:04 PM
My other thread was straying a bit off-topic (LA), so I thought I'd just make one that directly addresses the character I'm planning to build. I want to build a Humphrey Bogart/Raymond Chandler styled Detective Factotum (possibly going into the Watch Detective PrC, though I'm not married to that), but, being a bit rusty at 3.5, and never having been much of an optimizer (and playing in a somewhat optimized party), I think I may need some help. Here's the plan as it stands:

Note: Character is likely to be around level 7-10, I'm currently assuming 8.

Race: Currently trying to decide between Human (extra skills/feat), or Gray Elf (bonus Int and Dex, bad Con and Str).


Now, obviously, I don't have much authority over what I roll, but my DM is pretty good about letting you re-roll if you get a bad batch. That being said, I'm not sure in what order to prioritize stats when I do roll. Obviously, Int needs to be first. I want to emphasize Cha more than is probably a very good idea, but that's for RP reasons as much as anything. Current plan looks like:

Gray Elf:

1) Int
2) Cha
3) Con (-2)
4) Str
5) Wis
6) Dex (+2)

Human:
1) Int
2) Cha
3) Str
4) Con
5) Dex
6) Wis


Feats: Planning to take at least one, possibly two, flaws. Current plan is as follows:


1) Font of Inspiration
Bonus Human) Font of Inspiration
3) Faerie Mysteries Initiate
6) Keen Intellect
Flaw 1) Font of Inspiration
Flaw 2) Font of Inspiration

Flaws will vary based on whether I go Human or Grey Elf, as Human I'll have a melee weapon and take the ranged flaw, while Grey Elf, with its higher Dex, I'll probably go with a ranged weapon and take the melee flaw. Either way I'm likely to take Frail, which should be easily offset by FMI.


Skills: Should have loads of points, planning to stock up on:


Roughly Prioritized:

Gather Information
Bluff
Sense Motive
Diplomacy
Profession (Detective)
Perform (Private Eye Monologue)
Hide
Move Silent
Spot
Listen
Sleight of Hand
Search
Knowledge (Underworld)
Escape Artist
Disguise
Iajitsu Focus
Open Lock
Concentration
Disable Device

Now, I likely won't be able to max all of those, but for a lot of them I'll probably only take 5-10 ranks, which, coupled with the Int bonus I'll get for some of them, should be enough.


Current concerns:
Crappy Fort Save *barring amazing Con roll, of course*
Crappy melee and/or ranged attack rolls
Crappy AC whenever I'm not spending Inspiration Points
Low Wis running contrary to how I want to play my character. Of course, being that I'm basing the character off the Phillip Marlowe/Sam Spade archetype, ideally his rolls would all be 14s or higher, with probably three 18s (Int/Cha/Wis), so I may just have to live with this one unless I roll improbably well.

Party the character will be joining:
*Well optimized Duskblade (but not ridiculous)
*Somewhat optimized Cleric
*Foe-Hunter Ranger specializing in Undead

Haven
2009-12-03, 06:19 PM
To me, the classic detectives all had their blind spots--it's what makes them tragic heroes of a sort. I think low Wis woudn't be too out of character; if nothing else, you can say "It's just a stat".

"Faerie Mysteries Initiate"? I'm having a very hard time picturing Sam Spade doing that O.o

Zovc
2009-12-03, 06:24 PM
I didn't see Autohypnosis on your list of skills to get.

...a detective doesn't want to memorize things and ignore caltrop wounds? X3

Talbot
2009-12-03, 06:31 PM
To me, the classic detectives all had their blind spots--it's what makes them tragic heroes of a sort. I think low Wis woudn't be too out of character; if nothing else, you can say "It's just a stat".

"Faerie Mysteries Initiate"? I'm having a very hard time picturing Sam Spade doing that O.o

I was gonna have that be part of the tragic romance in his backstory that turned him into such a hard-bitten cynic. Right after they did the "sensual act" to improve their HP, she was brutally murdered/betrayed him/left him at a train station in Paris/killed his partner/etc.

Re: Autohypnosis

The character he's going to be replacing (my doomed but valiant attempt at a Dwarven Soulknife), has that skill, and the DM A) hates it, and B) rarely lets it work.

Merk
2009-12-03, 06:58 PM
I would prioritize the stats as follows: Int, Cha, Wis, Dex, Con, Str. It doesn't seem like this character concept needs to be uber in battle, so Str doesn't matter (if carrying capacity is a problem, you can get a bag of holding or something). Dex helps AC and Hide/Move Silently, so don't put it dead last -- that's what Str is for. Con doesn't matter that much, ideally you don't want to be anywhere near combat. I'd take gray elf for the Int bonus alone.

You should probably take ranks in, if not max out, Use Magic Device. Aside from being a powerful skill, you might need it to emulate things that Arcane Dilettante can't give you right away (high-level Divinations, Zone of Truth, etc.) From a flavor perspective, what kind of hard-boiled detective doesn't have Intimidate?

Crappy Fort Save *barring amazing Con roll, of course*
-- If you're making a fort save, you probably failed at stealth. You also have your Int bonus when you need it, so you're fine.

Crappy melee and/or ranged attack rolls
-- If you dump Str over Dex, you can get away with peppering enemies with crossbow bolts from afar when you feel like it without risking too much. Also unlike the rogue you don't have to be w/in 30 ft. for this, so maximize your range from the enemies when you can. When you get rich, you can even get a distance crossbow and be even farther out of reach.

Crappy AC whenever I'm not spending Inspiration Points
-- Ideally enemies aren't attacking you. Use UMD + Arcane Dilettante for non-AC defense (Mirror Image, Invisibility, Displacement, Fly, Gaseous Form, etc.) Hopefully these will negate the need for you to spend inspiration.

Low Wis running contrary to how I want to play my character. Of course, being that I'm basing the character off the Phillip Marlowe/Sam Spade archetype, ideally his rolls would all be 14s or higher, with probably three 18s (Int/Cha/Wis), so I may just have to live with this one unless I roll improbably well.
-- Hopefully not an issue if you prioritize Wis over Str and Con.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 07:08 PM
I don't know how Intimidate didn't make it onto my list. I of course want that, I just forgot to put it.

Ideally, I could just stay out of combat, but the problem is that the party doesn't really have anything that works as a meat-shield. The Duskblade and Ranger have decent AC but terrible HP, and the Cleric is crap at both...

Are there any handy magic items that'd really improve this build without breaking WBL?

Asheram
2009-12-03, 07:22 PM
You might find "Master inquisitive" from the Eberron campaign handbook interesting.
Or atleast the feat "Investigate" if you're not given that by the DM by default.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-03, 07:49 PM
I have played a detective character before, but I used rogue/fighter gestalt. I am currently playing a factotum in another campaign. Here are my thoughts:

1: Age up your character. This will boost your mental stats at expense of your physical stats. Not a problem at all for Factotum.

2: You have way too many skills on your list. You have 21 skills you want to put ranks in and only 10-12 skill points per level up. You're going to have to make some sacrifices. Iajatsu focus and perform may need to eat it.

3: As a detective, Spot, Listen and Sense Motive are crucial, crucial, crucial. Do not neglect your wis. These are not skills you get to add int to as a factotum and you'll be making way more than 1 sense motive and spot check per day.

4: Consider skill-boosting feats at low level where they'll make a big difference. Especially for Wis and Cha based feats. Later when your ranks make the bonuses irrelevant, retrain into font of inspiration.

4.1: Font of inspiration is a vital feat, but I seldom use more than 6 inspiration points in an encounter (as a level 3 factotum). See the previous point for my recomendation on this front.

5. Trade Trapfinding for Tracking or Urban Tracking. It's the reverse of the Ranger alternate class feature in dungeon scape. You'll need to be able to follow a trail.

6: Consider the Master Manipulator feat at level 6. Even when you catch somebody in a lie with sense motive, they can go on denying and there's nothing you can do to change that (except for intimidating them, which doesn't always work, and sometimes just isn't a smart option). Master Manipulator lets you force them into letting vital information slip.

7. Don't worry about combat. Between healing, spellcasting, and adding your int bonus to damage you'll perform just fine and always have something useful to do.

8. OK, if you are worried about combat, Knowledge Devotion is an excellent feat for factotum. At low levels you'll add up to +3 to your attack and damage all the time with no action or inspiration cost and at high levels you'll be able to get +5 to attack and damage easy. You're maxing knowledge: local anyway. Might as well turn it into offensive power. The feat is in complete champion.

9: Human Paragon can get you an extra +2 to Int if you need it. And a bonus feat. Maybe if your DM is nice you can get it to advance Arcane Dillitant or inspiration instead of spellcasting.





X: If you want to fist fight, a level or two of monk and kung fu genius will net you unarmed strike, f.o.b or decisive strike, Int to AC, and int-based stunning fist. May or may not be what you're looking for. Decisive strike is particularly nice for a factotum, because you can use the strike, then if it hits spend inspiration to add 2x your int to damage.

streakster
2009-12-03, 08:11 PM
Items: Dancing Lantern, Finder's chalk, and maybe a Listening Cone. All in dungeonscape. Very detective-y.

Also, you might want a hat of disguise - there's also a reserve feat that lets you change your face at at will. Could be fun. Reserve feats could also be a great offense choice. Better than a crossbow, anyway.

Other than that, just the standard: rubber ball, telescoping pole, bag of marbles, weapons crystals, etc. The essentials.

You could look at Dragonborn too. The breath option could be a fun offense with a few metabreath feats, and the wings could be fun for keeping an eye on someone from above.

Just some ideas.

Talbot
2009-12-03, 08:41 PM
I have played a detective character before, but I used rogue/fighter gestalt. I am currently playing a factotum in another campaign. Here are my thoughts:

1: Age up your character. This will boost your mental stats at expense of your physical stats. Not a problem at all for Factotum.



Potentially good advice, but I also don't want to make him TOO old. Maybe one or two age categories is a good plan.




2: You have way too many skills on your list. You have 21 skills you want to put ranks in and only 10-12 skill points per level up. You're going to have to make some sacrifices. Iajatsu focus and perform may need to eat it.



Yes, but I hardly need all of them maxed. Three or four ranks, plus Dex, plus Int for a lot of the lower-ranked Dex ones should be plenty. Only a handful need to stay fully buffed.



3: As a detective, Spot, Listen and Sense Motive are crucial, crucial, crucial. Do not neglect your wis. These are not skills you get to add int to as a factotum and you'll be making way more than 1 sense motive and spot check per day.


Totally agree, and I'd add Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information to that list.




4: Consider skill-boosting feats at low level where they'll make a big difference. Especially for Wis and Cha based feats. Later when your ranks make the bonuses irrelevant, retrain into font of inspiration.



My DM isn't big on letting you retrain feats, so that probably isn't much of an option. Fortunately, the character is likely to start somewhere in the 6-10 range, so it shouldn't be an issue.



6: Consider the Master Manipulator feat at level 6. Even when you catch somebody in a lie with sense motive, they can go on denying and there's nothing you can do to change that (except for intimidating them, which doesn't always work, and sometimes just isn't a smart option). Master Manipulator lets you force them into letting vital information slip.


What book is that from?



8. OK, if you are worried about combat, Knowledge Devotion is an excellent feat for factotum. At low levels you'll add up to +3 to your attack and damage all the time with no action or inspiration cost and at high levels you'll be able to get +5 to attack and damage easy. You're maxing knowledge: local anyway. Might as well turn it into offensive power. The feat is in complete champion.


So far in this campaign we've been traveling a lot/fighting a lot of different sort of stuff. I'm not sure how useful that'll be.




9: Human Paragon can get you an extra +2 to Int if you need it. And a bonus feat. Maybe if your DM is nice you can get it to advance Arcane Dillitant or inspiration instead of spellcasting.


I've never really used Templates before. Where is this one found/is there any LA/anything like that to go with it?

The Gilded Duke
2009-12-03, 09:19 PM
Human Paragon is a class, it can be found in SRD material:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon

Master Manipulator is Player's Handbook 2.

Also I want to play this character now.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-03, 10:10 PM
So far in this campaign we've been traveling a lot/fighting a lot of different sort of stuff. I'm not sure how useful that'll be.


Don't forget you can add your factotum level to your knowledge check, so all you need is 1 rank. With a +5 int bonus and +6 from factotum level you can still make your check at +11, which is enough to get +2 or 3 usually. At level 10 you'll be hitting 3 or 4 most of the time. S'just useful.

Thinking about it, you may be able to get away with 5 ranks only in Bluff. Most NPCs don't have amazing sense motive. 5 ranks get you you're synergies, and you can add your factotum level when necessary. With a +2 cha, 5 ranks, and 6 factotum levels that's already a +13 bluff, min. Intimidate and diplomacy are in the same catagory, since you won't be making as many repeted checks.

Draz74
2009-12-04, 01:53 AM
Roughly Prioritized:

Gather Information
I realize that it's an iconic skill for the archetype, but ... how often are you really going to use this skill more than 1/day? If it's generally only 1/day like I'd expect, you should be able to get pretty awesome check results with only ~5 ranks, especially if you have good Charisma and a synergy bonus.


Bluff
Sense Motive
Diplomacy
I'd put Sense Motive at the top of this list. I'm surprised not to see Search, at the very least, up this high. Maybe Spot too.


Knowledge (Underworld)
I would expect Knowledge (local) to cover this.


Perform (Private Eye Monologue)

Win.

Though the partymates might not appreciate it much ... unless it's very well-done.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-04, 01:55 AM
Though the partymates might not appreciate it much ... unless it's very well-done.

But there's just one question I gotta ask: Why kidnap the Drow masseuse?