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Bookworm42
2009-12-03, 09:04 PM
Hello everyone,

In various posts I have read about using 10th level spell slots, and despite some searching I have not been able to find where exactly one gets a 10th level spell slot.

So I guess my question is how does one obtain a 10th level spell slot, and where exactly are the rules for such a slot written?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-03, 09:05 PM
Pre-epic, you don't actually get a 10th level slot, you just use things like Earth Spell or Sanctum Spell to have an effective 10th-level spell for all purposes.

jokey665
2009-12-03, 09:09 PM
Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity)

Bookworm42
2009-12-03, 09:17 PM
Pre-epic, you don't actually get a 10th level slot, you just use things like Earth Spell or Sanctum Spell to have an effective 10th-level spell for all purposes.



Improved Spell Capacity

Thank you both, that was really bothering me.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-03, 09:17 PM
Hello everyone,

In various posts I have read about using 10th level spell slots, and despite some searching I have not been able to find where exactly one gets a 10th level spell slot.

So I guess my question is how does one obtain a 10th level spell slot, and where exactly are the rules for such a slot written?

Epic level: you gain a spell slot one higher with Imprpved Spell capacity.


Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]
Prerequisite
Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.

Benefit
When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times.


Bards gain 7th level spells because the highest they have is 6th. But Wizard can get 10th due to them having 9th level.
You can get even another spell slot due to high ability score since it adds a base spell slot.

nyarlathotep
2009-12-03, 09:23 PM
I'm fairly certain deities and demigods gives a chart for bonus spells beyond 9th level, though it requires truly ridiculous stats.

Mongoose87
2009-12-03, 09:27 PM
I'm fairly certain deities and demigods gives a chart for bonus spells beyond 9th level, though it requires truly ridiculous stats.

Probably the one for Gods who choose "Divine Spellcasting."

Eldariel
2009-12-03, 09:27 PM
I'm fairly certain deities and demigods gives a chart for bonus spells beyond 9th level, though it requires truly ridiculous stats.

ELH has it. The table extends naturally and really, every 20th level caster already should have high enough stats for bonus slots on 10th+ levels. And yeah, there are ways to qualify as casting 10th level spells pre-epic as mentioned, and then there's Dragonwrought Kobolds picking Improved Spell Capacity around level 15 and 18, getting actual 11th level slots pre-epic.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-04, 01:17 AM
Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity)

Addendum question for this: Say I've got a gish wizard with 8th level spells at level 20. When I hit epic, can I take improved spell capacity? And if so, does it open up a 9th level spell slot, or a 10th?

Fortuna
2009-12-04, 01:22 AM
No. It states that you need the ability to cast spells of the normal maximum level. You would need to take more wizard levels to get that feat.

Akisa
2009-12-04, 01:48 AM
But how do you get it pre epic though? People mention Dragonwrought Kobold, but what makes this possible?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 01:51 AM
But how do you get it pre epic though? People mention Dragonwrought Kobold, but what makes this possible?True Dragons gain Epic feats through Age rather than HD or CR. Dragonwrought makes a Kobold into a Dragon. An Old Kobold therefore gets Epic feats at level 1.

Akisa
2009-12-04, 02:02 AM
Ok but they're not a true dragon... they may have the dragon type but they're not True dragons.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-04, 02:05 AM
Ok but they're not a true dragon... they may have the dragon type but they're not True dragons.

The type "True Dragon" does not exist. There is only "Dragon", which the kobold now is.

Akisa
2009-12-04, 02:24 AM
Oh wow a book about true dragons and they forget to mention just epic rules are just for true dragons, why am I not surprised?

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-04, 02:24 AM
*swallows a Gem of Heavy Fortification* Delicious, but a little cheesy. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 02:32 AM
Oh wow a book about true dragons and they forget to mention just epic rules are just for true dragons, why am I not surprised?Epic rules are for anyone that qualifies. What they did poorly was defining what, exactly, is a True Dragon. IIRC, they actually did impose restrictions on what qualifies besides 'has the dragon type', but Dragonwrought Kobold still qualifies.

Akisa
2009-12-04, 02:38 AM
Although RAI trumps RAW and most DMs will say the RAI will say dragonwrought will not qualify.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 02:42 AM
Although RAI trumps RAW and most DMs will say the RAI will say dragonwrought will not qualify.You're talking RAB(rules as balanced) or RaIStATE(Rules as I Say to Avoid That Exploit). RAI, Kobolds are true dragons. RAI, True Dragons get epic feats when they hit old. Now, no one intended old Kobolds to get access to epic feats, but that's unintended synergy, not a violation of RAI(think Venomfire+Fleshraker rather than drownhealing).

Akisa
2009-12-04, 02:50 AM
No not really most if not all the material in the Draconomicon in the first two chapters are materials were intended for True Dragons not the lesser dragons like Kobolds.

Milskidasith
2009-12-04, 02:52 AM
No not really most if not all the material in the Draconomicon in the first two chapters are materials were intended for True Dragons not the lesser dragons like Kobolds.

Dragonwraught makes a kobold a dragon. The dragon feats require the dragon type and a bit of other stuff Kobolds can qualify for.

Yes, it's dumb. That doesn't mean that Kobolds weren't intended to be True Dragons (they are), just that they weren't intended to start taking epic feats early because of bad synergy.

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 02:55 AM
No not really most if not all the material in the Draconomicon in the first two chapters are materials were intended for True Dragons not the lesser dragons like Kobolds.

The trick is that they defined a True Dragon as a creature of Dragon-type with age categories. Then, for whatever reason, they decided to give Kobolds age categories and a feat to acquire the Dragon-type. Why, don't ask me.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-04, 02:56 AM
Perhaps Pun-Pun made them?

mohdri
2009-12-04, 03:30 AM
Where does it say that Kobolds (even Dragonwrought) advance by age? That is the definition of a "True Dragon". Kobolds still advance by class and are therefore not "True Dragons".


No not really most if not all the material in the Draconomicon in the first two chapters are materials were intended for True Dragons not the lesser dragons like Kobolds.

To take this one step further, it's in the chapter called "A DM's Guide to Dragons" and anything in there would be for the DM, not PC's.

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 03:37 AM
Where does it say that Kobolds (even Dragonwrought) advance by age? That is the definition of a "True Dragon". Kobolds still advance by class and are therefore not "True Dragons".

In Races of the Dragon, they've got the age categories. Gold Dragons can gain class levels too; that doesn't make them any less Dragons.

mohdri
2009-12-04, 03:56 AM
They are both dragons, yes. But Dragonwrought Kobolds don't advance, i.e. gain powers and abilities, by age category. They advance by class levels only. "True" dragons primarily advance by age, but can also gain class levels as well.

Aharon
2009-12-04, 04:28 AM
Actually, they do advance by age: They get mental stat boni, but no mental stat penalties. A commoner 1 with a +3 to his Int, Wis and Cha will be far better than a normal one.

Fortuna
2009-12-04, 04:56 AM
I believe that the word is bonuses, despite what logical etymology would suggest.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 10:34 AM
Sorry to break your tangent guys, but I think a better question than how you get 10th level slots is why didn't they just number the 10 spell levels 1 through 10 in the first place?

1st through 10th is much more appealing than 0th through 9th.

Difinition of True Dragon should just have been a ****ING DRAGON!

Arakune
2009-12-04, 10:42 AM
Sorry to break your tangent guys, but I think a better question than how you get 10th level slots is why didn't they just number the 10 spell levels 1 through 10 in the first place?

1st through 10th is much more appealing than 0th through 9th.

Difinition of True Dragon should just have been a ****ING DRAGON!

In AD&D, aparently only one 10th level spell ever existed and was to become a god, or something.

There are many ways to be a dragon: half-dragon, dragon disciple, dragon turtle, pseudo dragon, wyvern...

mohdri
2009-12-04, 11:16 AM
Difinition of True Dragon should just have been a ****ING DRAGON!

I agree... and anything related to somthing dragon-like could have been changed to magical beast or given a sub-type (dragon/dragonblood) or even somthing else all together.

Douglas
2009-12-04, 11:17 AM
In AD&D, aparently only one 10th level spell ever existed and was to become a god, or something.
No, that one was 12th level. There were several 10th and 11th level spells, hidden away in some obscure splatbook for Really Powerful characters, some of which were used to explain how the empire of Netheril worked. The one and only 12th level spell was Karsus' Avatar, which allowed the caster to steal any one god's power and replace that god with himself, and Karsus' choice of Mystryl as his target for it was the direct cause of the downfall of Netheril.

Cyclocone
2009-12-04, 11:24 AM
The one and only 12th level spell was Karsus' Avatar, which allowed the caster to steal any one god's power and replace that god with himself, and Karsus' choice of Mystril as his target for it was the direct cause of the downfall of Netheril.

You gotta love that spell for having "Target: One God" in it's entry.

Here's link to the free PDF of the damned thing: Netheril: Empire of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1147.zip).

BTW, remeber that Epic Spells count as being 10th level aswell (even if they should rightly be 9001th).

Shardan
2009-12-04, 11:25 AM
Dark Sun 2nd ed had cleric and wizard spells lvl 1-10

The level 10 ones tended to be huge, epic types. Grow a mountain fortress (including the mountain) etc

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 11:31 AM
In AD&D, aparently only one 10th level spell ever existed and was to become a god, or something.

In 3.x Faerun, Karsus made one to steal Mystryl's power (Karsus' Avatar.) The end result was that Netheril was nuked and he became a Vestige.

EDIT: Was it 12th? I forget.

jcsw
2009-12-04, 11:41 AM
Difinition of True Dragon should just have been a ****ING DRAGON!

You're saying Dragons should only be true if they're having intercourse?

wormwood
2009-12-04, 12:31 PM
1st through 10th is much more appealing than 0th through 9th.

You're not a computer programmer, are you? :)

Tyndmyr
2009-12-04, 12:46 PM
Epic rules are for anyone that qualifies. What they did poorly was defining what, exactly, is a True Dragon. IIRC, they actually did impose restrictions on what qualifies besides 'has the dragon type', but Dragonwrought Kobold still qualifies.

True dragons have the twelve age categories, have the type dragon, yadda yadda.

Dragonwrought kobolds explicitly fulfill all the qualifications. Balanced, I dunno...but hey, kobolds have crappy stat modifiers to begin with. They're only worth it if you are going dragonwrought.

I suspect it's completely intentional.

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 12:51 PM
You're not a computer programmer, are you? :)

That was my thought as well.


You're saying Dragons should only be true if they're having intercourse?

ba-dum-tish

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 03:25 PM
no i'm not a computer programmer, but regular people play D&D some times, ya know the ones that start counting at one and don't get worried about their integers overflowing. :smallsmile:

I CAN CAST 255TH LEVEL SPELLS!!!
one level later: oh crap :smallfrown:

also not saying the dragonwrought thing is wrong by RAW but it is stupid. A True Dragon's name should start with "Dragon," in the monster manual, all others can pike off.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-04, 03:35 PM
BTW, remeber that Epic Spells count as being 10th level aswell (even if they should rightly be 9001th).

Wait a minute, do you mean to say that RAI (and fun wording) suggets you can get power levels OVER 9000??
... Sorry, I read that and couldn't help it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-04, 03:40 PM
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

That's the specific borked rule. Without that, the Dragonwrought exploit wouldn't apply.

It is correct that it's RAI. The rules intended for any old dragon to select them.

The rules intended for kobolds to be dragons.

In other words, the rules are borked. It's like using a Candle of Invocation. Everything's according to plan.

It's just a bad plan.

Gpope
2009-12-04, 03:49 PM
What? This is just getting silly.

The writers of Races of the Dragon almost certainly did not intend for kobolds to be able to take epic feats at level 1 (level 3 at the latest, if bonus feats are not available at level 1.) It's RAW, because the designers wrote rules; those rules had ramifications they did not intend, so it's not RAI.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 03:53 PM
What? This is just getting silly.

The writers of Races of the Dragon almost certainly did not intend for kobolds to be able to take epic feats at level 1 (level 3 at the latest, if bonus feats are not available at level 1.) It's RAW, because the designers wrote rules; those rules had ramifications they did not intend, so it's not RAI.They intended for Kobolds to be able to qualify for things like they're dragons. It's an unexpected synergy the designers didn't plan for, but none of the elements violate RAI. It's like combining DMM and Nightsticks. It's entirely reasonable, just broken.

Gpope
2009-12-04, 03:54 PM
They intended for Kobolds to be able to qualify for things like they're dragons. It's an unexpected synergy the designers didn't plan for, but none of the elements violate RAI.

Hint: the bolded text can be paraphrased as "It's something the designers did not intend."

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 03:56 PM
Player's Guide to Faerun have, in the description of one epic spell, a way to increase the save DC.

Increase DC on the fly: ad-hoc +3

Burn 1000 XP more than the minimum needed to cast the spell, to increase the Save DC by 5.

This extra XP burn can be done multiple times. So an epic spell can have a high save DC than would be normal.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 04:00 PM
The intent was for really old dragons with less than 20 class levels (easily a decent challenge for a not fully optimized epic group) to be able to get the same feats as the adventurers they might challenge, For powerful dragon mages to be able to spend their massive hordes researching epic spell, ect. Not for some worthless Kobolds to get better feats than PC's of other races.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 04:00 PM
Hint: the bolded text can be paraphrased as "It's something the designers did not intend."They also didn't intend Wizards casting Grease to allow Rogues to SA on every attack at level 1, but that doesn't mean it's not RAI. Or Planar Binding to get yourself an army of people several CRs higher than your CL. Or heck, Druids going Wildshaped into a bear most of the day with a bear companion and casting Summon Bear+Animal Growth. Doesn't mean any of those aren't RAI.

Akisa
2009-12-04, 05:21 PM
They also didn't intend Wizards casting Grease to allow Rogues to SA on every attack at level 1, but that doesn't mean it's not RAI. Or Planar Binding to get yourself an army of people several CRs higher than your CL. Or heck, Druids going Wildshaped into a bear most of the day with a bear companion and casting Summon Bear+Animal Growth. Doesn't mean any of those aren't RAI.

Actually I think it's rai that grease works that way, because sneak attack got shafted by immunities of large selection of foes. Desginers felt that it maybe to easy to get sneak attacks so they immune monsters so that even grease won't help them.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-04, 05:28 PM
If RAI stands for rule as intended then yes it does. If the rule doesn't function as intended then the interpretation is not the Rule as Intended by definition.

One of those I would argue is how the rule was intended, the bear thing
One just clever uses of simple magic, grease
One just assumes assumes your DM is retarded

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 05:38 PM
If RAI stands for rule as intended then yes it does. If the rule doesn't function as intended then the interpretation is not the Rule as Intended by definition.

One of those I would argue is how the rule was intended, the bear thing
One just clever uses of simple magic, grease
One just assumes assumes your DM is retardedThen the debate is what is implied by intended? Keep in mind that this is the company that provides Bracers of Armor +2 to characters that can cast Mage Armor. Their intent is probably wrong. But, would you say that a combo of Venomfire+Fleshraker isn't intended? That using cha-buffs and debuffs to win Planar Binding isn't intended? What about GMW instead of paying for enhancements? At what point in reasonable application of spells in ways that there is no indication other than blatant OPness are wrong do you ban it?

Melamoto
2009-12-04, 06:20 PM
Dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons by RAI OR RAW in reality. If we're going purely by RAW, then only Core dragons are True Dragons. True Dragon isn't a type, it's the actual name of a set of monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm). Anything that isn't under this list is not a True Dragon by RAW.

Although if I remember correctly, this is irrelevant because the rule applies to all Dragons anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 06:20 PM
Dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons by RAI OR RAW in reality. If we're going purely by RAW, then only Core dragons are True Dragons. True Dragon isn't a type, it's the actual name of a set of monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm). Anything that isn't under this list is not a True Dragon by RAW.Draconomicon expanded that.

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 06:28 PM
And (at the time of writing) Kobold wasn't on the list. (Races of the Dragon, which gave kobolds the same age categories, hadn't come out though)

It said "any creature with the dragon type that does not advance through age categories is a lesser dragon"

But it didn't say "any creature with the dragon type that advances through age categories is a true dragon"

Interestingly, in Dragon Magazine, a creature called the sea serpent (dragon type) is described as "like true dragons, it advances through age categories" (from wyrmling to great wyrm.)

Suggesting that it's not a true dragon.

3 types of sea serpent were listed.

HCL
2009-12-04, 08:55 PM
Apparently anything that can become a "great wyrm" is a true dragon. I had a fight with Tanaric about this a couple months ago, but RAW it works. If I was DMing I would not allow the epic feats pre-epic unless you are playing a dragon with a level adjustment (the idea was to make dragons strong despite their high LA), and would not allow players to take the great wyrm age category until epic levels (only the +2 to all mental stats category). The other concern is the RotD web enhancement, the Draconic and Greater Draconic rites of passages are imbalanced. Draconic gives you a 1st level SLA 1/day, greater draconic gives you a +1 sorcerer ECL bump. And no sovereign archetypes either.