PDA

View Full Version : PrC Lvl Caps... Why?



Koury
2009-12-03, 09:59 PM
Out of curiosity, why do PrCs cap? Why can't you be a lvl 5 rogue/15 shadowdancer, for instance?

I'm considering removing max lvls from PrCs. Is there a reason to NOT do this that I am missing?

Arakune
2009-12-03, 10:01 PM
Out of curiosity, why do PrCs cap? Why can't you be a lvl 5 rogue/15 shadowdancer, for instance?

I'm considering removing max lvls from PrCs. Is there a reason to NOT do this that I am missing?

Most of then doesn't have any kind of logical progression, only new abilities.

Tavar
2009-12-03, 10:02 PM
Generally, PrC's have a theme that can be expressed in only 10 levels. Now, there are some that could easily be extended, but you would pretty much have to redesign most. Not that that's a bad thing.

Brendan
2009-12-03, 10:02 PM
First of al, they are meant to be stronger than normal classes, so letting someone be in an amazingly powerful class for that long would make them just soar ahead of everyone else. Also, that would mean that there would need to be endless classes that WotC or someone else would have to create, which they would not like.

Kallisti
2009-12-03, 10:02 PM
You can do that, actually. The Epic Level Handbook has rules for it. If you just rewrote the Bonus Feat list to have nonepic feats it'd be fine. It's just that 75% of PrCs would then magically be transformed...into fighter.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-03, 10:02 PM
Well, most of them are written so that they stop giving you anything after 5 or 10 levels.

Koury
2009-12-03, 10:10 PM
Seems like most of the ones I'm familiar with are easily extended. You get +2 something at lvl 3, +4 at lvl 6 and +6 at lvl 9? Well, lvl 12 pushes you to +8.

That being said, I can see that ones with special capstones are different, but the player would probably not take it past that point anyway. I'm not trying to force classes on my players, but I don't see why they can't continue in a path if they still want to.

Assuming there is no huge balance issue, I'm thinking I'm going to allow it. But thats why I'm here, you guys could point to potential problems that I'm oblivious to.

sonofzeal
2009-12-03, 10:14 PM
Assuming there is no huge balance issue, I'm thinking I'm going to allow it. But thats why I'm here, you guys could point to potential problems that I'm oblivious to.
There's no issue, besides the "huge balance issues" you're already watching for. Some might get kind of ridiculous if they kept on progressing, but a lot of them just make sense.

That said, there's something to be said for really mastering something, in-character, being the top of the chain in some Order.

Eloel
2009-12-04, 06:49 AM
So people don't make Warlock 5/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 14...

Koury
2009-12-04, 06:58 AM
*googles Hellfire Warlock*

:smalleek:

Uh, whats wrong with 28d6 in addition to your normal attack? Nothing, right?

Well, so long as you're the player, I suppose...

Sliver
2009-12-04, 07:18 AM
It has an issue with capstones (that's the term right?) and such.. If you extend the class without giving it new anything then there is no problem, or make something new yourself.. But WotC couldn't just write out for every class 20 levels and say "When you reach ECL 20 and you have at least 10 levels in this class, you gain X ability" right?

Well this is the main issue I see that would make it harder for WotC to just give the classes no cap. You need to give it a hard level limit to say when they get their capstone, with early entry methods screwing around stuff.. Just giving a level cap creates less headaches..

BobVosh
2009-12-04, 07:24 AM
It does help some classes. The duel progression ones like mystic theurge, ultimate magus, etc could definitely use it. Some other ones (hellfire warlock) would break the game. I personally see no issue with it so long as your players would avoid doing such things.

Koury
2009-12-04, 07:33 AM
Funny, MT was one of the classes being looked at by my players. I avoided mentioning that though. Something happens to threads around here when you mention MT. Kinda like when someone mentions monks. :smallbiggrin:

Kris Strife
2009-12-04, 07:37 AM
Most of then doesn't have any kind of logical progression, only new abilities.

This is it. Its actually in one of the books, and it only says that for PrCs that have less than 10 levels listed. Under that and supposedl, you don't really get a good idea for progression.

Doc Roc
2009-12-04, 11:19 AM
Well, most of them are written so that they stop giving you anything after 5 or 10 levels.

Actually, most are written so they stop giving you anything after one or two levels.

Koury
2009-12-04, 11:44 AM
So consensus seems to be that its fine, excepting the obvious bad ideas (Hellfire Warlock)?

Almost seems that any class that actually goes to ten has no trouble continuing (at least, of the ones I'm familiar with).

Akal Saris
2009-12-04, 12:12 PM
Yeah, basically it's fine, and you should probably invent some nifty new abilities as well as advance the normal stuff.

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 12:27 PM
Epic Handbook- if it goes to ten, it can probably go higher, if it doesn't go to ten, it probably shouldn't go higher.

Oddly, Underdark lists on page 138, in the description of Deep Imaskar, a Sorcerer 4/Wizard 20/Archmage 6 character as one of the important figures.

I wonder if an epic progression for the Archmage would continue granting the High Arcana abilities?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-04, 01:22 PM
Oddly, Underdark lists on page 138, in the description of Deep Imaskar, a Sorcerer 4/Wizard 20/Archmage 6 character as one of the important figures.You should know not to trust tables and examples. only text! (and sometimes not even then)

DragoonWraith
2009-12-04, 01:25 PM
I wonder if an epic progression for the Archmage would continue granting the High Arcana abilities?
I'd make more High Arcana options to go with it, but yeah, I think that's a reasonable idea.

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 01:28 PM
You should know not to trust tables and examples. only text! (and sometimes not even then)

Wasn't part of a able- was in the text of the book.

Didn't have stats for the character, either.

One can either call it an error, or use the opportunity to extend the Archmage progression further.

Mongoose87
2009-12-04, 01:32 PM
I'd make more High Arcana options to go with it, but yeah, I think that's a reasonable idea.

Death to fifth-level spell slots!

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-04, 01:34 PM
Extend the Mystic Theurge I beg you. It becomes a realistic option then, instead of the Cripple-tron.

Remember that not every PrC can easily be extended (thinking of the IotSFV here), so doing it for some and not others may bring complaints from your players.

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 01:40 PM
It's been done already (online 3.5 update)
Sadly, it is alternating (+1 Arcane Casting every odd level, +1 Divine casting every even level.)

So, a 5th level wizard, 5th level cleric, 20th level Mystic theurge (30th level character) would cast as 20th level wizard, 20th level cleric.

Ladorak
2009-12-04, 01:51 PM
It's been done already (online 3.5 update)
Sadly, it is alternating (+1 Arcane Casting every odd level, +1 Divine casting every even level.)

So, a 5th level wizard, 5th level cleric, 20th level Mystic theurge (30th level character) would cast as 20th level wizard, 20th level cleric.

o_O They had a chance to fix MT and they did that?

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 01:54 PM
It was part of the update to the Epic Handbook- the booklet that also provided MM2, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes, and Fiend Folio updates- so I think it would have come out very shortly after 3.5 did.

Pretty harsh though.

Still, being a 20th level caster (with all the spell slots and spells known) in both-

(rather than a 15th level caster in both, as a 15th-level cleric/15th level wizard would have been- if anyone was silly enough to make that their 30th level character)

is a slight boost over this theoretical non-PRC'd multiclass character.

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 02:21 PM
Extend the Mystic Theurge I beg you. It becomes a realistic option then, instead of the Cripple-tron.

No need. Simply use an accelerated progression casting class to enter it, then advance the slower one when MT is finished.

Example: Ur-Priest (CD) instead of Cleric on the divine side - by MT 10, you will have 9th-level Cleric spells, and can advance the arcane side for the remainder until 20.

Or Sublime Chord (CArc) instead of sorcerer on the arcane side - by MT 10, you will have 9th-level sorcerer spells, and can advance the divine side for the remainder until 20.

Alternatively, mix in another arcane/divine Theurge to finish up, like Arcane Heirophant (RotW) - wizard/druid: or True Necromancer (LM) - wizard/cleric. You will easily qualify by the time you're ready to switch to it.

Finally, use PrCs that break caps - Legacy Champion (WoL) and Uncanny Trickster (CS). Don't be surprised if your DM throws them out though.