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View Full Version : [3.5] Working on a rogue build - open to suggestions/critique!



Jergmo
2009-12-04, 11:22 AM
So far, I've only got this build worked up to level 7 - the purpose of the build is to have a skill-monkey who can shift between putting out good damage and being an evasion tank. The build does rely a bit on a variant rule, Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm), but it isn't necessary.

1st level: Rogue
2nd level: Swashbuckler
3rd level: Rogue
4th level: Swashbuckler
5th level: Swashbuckler
6th level: Rogue
7th level: Rogue

Note: This is as a human.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon FinesseB, Daring Outlaw*, Two-Weapon Fighting

*Daring Outlaw is a feat from Complete Scoundrel which causes Rogue and Swashbuckler levels to stack for the purpose of determining sneak attack bonus, dodge bonus, and grace bonus.

Thus far, the build would have the following:
4d6+3d10 hp
8x7 + 4x3 skill points
+6 BAB
Base saves of Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
Free Weapon Finesse
+1 misc. bonus to Reflex
+1 Dodge bonus
Int modifier added to damage of each strike
+4d6 sneak attack
Evasion, Uncanny Dodge

Thoughts? :smallsmile:

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-04, 11:28 AM
I would sugest max ranks in UMD to get some nice wandsm such as Mirror Image, blur or something along those line.

I have heard that one of the best options for a rogue are either two-weapon fighting or throwing weapons, so you might want to check on that

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-04, 11:29 AM
I think you're confusing the word "critique" and "criteria". :smalltongue:

Jergmo
2009-12-04, 11:34 AM
I would sugest max ranks in UMD to get some nice wandsm such as Mirror Image, blur or something along those line.

I have heard that one of the best options for a rogue are either two-weapon fighting or throwing weapons, so you might want to check on that

Yarr, I've got Two-Weapon Fighting on there, though I wasn't certain if it'd be better to take Daring Outlaw first or that. And a wand of Mirror Image would be lovely, yeah.


I think you're confusing the word "critique" and "criteria". :smalltongue:

Yes. Yes I am. >.>

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-04, 11:40 AM
Yarr, I've got Two-Weapon Fighting on there, though I wasn't certain if it'd be better to take Daring Outlaw first or that. And a wand of Mirror Image would be lovely, yeah.


At what level are you starting? that might help you when making some choices, and I suggest for weapon to dual wield keen rapiers

Zovc
2009-12-04, 11:41 AM
Might I suggest you take a look at the Factotum in Dungeonscape?

Telonius
2009-12-04, 11:52 AM
That fourth level of Rogue is bothering me a little. Normally with a Daring Outlaw build, you'll see odd numbers of Rogue levels (Rogue3/Swash17 for example). Basically what that fourth Rogue level does, is trade 2HP and Slippery Mind (what you would have gotten at Swashbuckler 17); for +1 reflex, Uncanny Dodge, and 4 skill points. That's generally a good trade. The problem is, that results in a dead level to finish out a class, Swashbuckler 16, where you really don't get anything. But if you just take another level in Rogue, you're losing more HP and a point of BAB. So also not a very good situation.

I'd suggest that you take at least one level in a PrC to replace the dead level. Master of Masks is one of my favorite one-level dips, since it gives you access to proficiency in all weapons without using any feats. Compare the Elven Thinblade in CWar to the Rapier, and you'll see how this could be useful. Finesse-able Longsword? Yes please! Another option would be a dip in Shadowdancer, which lets you hide in plain sight. That's quite a bit more feat-intensive, though, so you might want to just go with Master of Masks.

Improved Feint is a problematic feat for you, if you're planning on going mainly TWF. The thing is, you only get one attack that round if you successfully feint, and you'll be built to maximize damage by many sneak attacks attacks not a single super-attack like a proper charger build. There are ways to get around that (Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack, for example), but those are a lot more complicated to get. Personally I'd switch out both Combat Expertise and Improved Feint for something else - Improved Initiative and Craven (if it's available - it's found in Champions of Ruin).

Kosjsjach
2009-12-04, 11:57 AM
IMO, Daring Outlaw gives you the full benefit of the rogue's combat capability, so you have to decide which you value more: the rogue's skill points, or the swashbuckler's BAB. The swashbuckler's Grace and Dodge abilities are not that fantastic, so you really gain the most benefit from progressing sneak attack as a swashbuckler. If skill points are enough of a worry for you, you could consider taking the Able Learner feat and make sure you have a good Int bonus.

Jergmo
2009-12-04, 12:20 PM
Yeah, the skill points are my concern, as I'm the party's main skill monkey and I'd also like to take some skill tricks. Though I didn't see anything about only making one attack after feinting - Improved Feint switches it to a move action. I was given the impression that you didn't have to use a full attack to dual-wield, though if there's some other thing dealing with that I suppose I could take Craven and use a buckler.

And I've heard that Factotum was good, though I wasn't sure what book it was from. I'll have to check it out, thanks.

Draz74
2009-12-04, 12:24 PM
People are used to seeing Daring Outlaw builds that are Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16, but Rogue 17/Swashbuckler 3 works just fine too, and based on the thread title, I'm guessing that's more what you're wanting. :smallsmile: You just might want to clarify that. Not that looking for a 1-level PrC dip, like Telonius suggests, is a bad idea either. (Or a 1-level base class dip, for that matter -- if you have access to Tome of Battle, a one-level dip in Warblade could do great things for your mobility, TWF abilities, and/or combat banter.)

You apparently have access to Complete Scoundrel, so make sure you look for Skill Tricks that are appropriate to the character. In particular, make sure you keep Tumble ranks maxxed so you can take Acrobatic Backstab at Level 9.

If you have access to Dungeonscape, a very basic element of Rogue optimization is taking the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature. Give up Trap Sense (:smallsigh:) in favor of no longer being useless against Undead. Woot.

If you can take a feat from Champions of Ruin, check out the Craven feat. It's not my favorite flavor-wise, but there's a reason it's considered a staple of Rogue optimization.


Yeah, the skill points are my concern, as I'm the party's main skill monkey and I'd also like to take some skill tricks.
Heh, apparently we're on the same page. Note that, for a Rogue-heavy build, Daring Outlaw is still pretty good but no longer amazing. It gives you one or two dice of Sneak Attack and a modest bonus (at high levels) to AC and Reflex. Not exactly "meh" but ... not exactly irreplaceable either.


Though I didn't see anything about only making one attack after feinting - Improved Feint switches it to a move action.
Right, so once you've used your move action, you have a standard action remaining, which lets you make a single attack. :smalltongue: Note also that even if you manage to feint and still make a full attack (e.g. using Belt of Battle), the feint bonus only applies to the first attack after the feint.

For these and other reasons, Improved Feint is generally considered a waste off a feat. (And if you drop it, you can drop Combat Expertise too.)

Note that the Timely Misdirection skill trick makes Feinting have a whole new use, though. And for a much less painful investment (2 skill points).


I was given the impression that you didn't have to use a full attack to dual-wield, though if there's some other thing dealing with that I suppose I could take Craven and use a buckler.
Yeah, dual-wielding requires a full attack, normally. There's some feats in PHB2 that let you dual-wield on the move, but they're not generally worth the investment. There are also some Tome of Battle maneuvers that let you move and still dual-wield, in various ways; hence my earlier recommendation of a Warblade dip.


And I've heard that Factotum was good, though I wasn't sure what book it was from. I'll have to check it out, thanks.
I love Factotum. It's a lot of fun. But without adding in some cheese, it's tough to make it into a strong melee combatant. For the concept you've outlined, I'd stick with Daring Outlaw rather than Factotum.

... Although I guess a three-level dip in Factotum could still be tempting, especially if you want Tripping capability.

Jergmo
2009-12-04, 12:27 PM
-snip-

Aye, I don't have Champions of Ruin, but I imagine I could find information about the feat somewhere...

ErrantX
2009-12-04, 12:30 PM
Another idea is to consider dipping some swordsage into your build. If you take 2 levels your get your Wisdom to AC (which you can bump with items and spells) that you can use in light armor, and Shadow Hand maneuvers. Taking stances like Island of Blades and Assassin's Stance are crucial for damage output. Island of Blades makes it so you're flanking so long as you've got another ally on the same enemy, so you can get your sneak attacks in, and Assassin's stance gives you an additional +2d6 sneak attack. You can't use them together, unfortunately, but still, changing stance is a swift action. Just make sure that when you take the swordsage levels you take them at 9th and 10th levels, so your initiator level will be high enough to get 3rd level maneuvers.

-X

Jergmo
2009-12-04, 12:40 PM
Bah, Scarlet Corsair is really awesome, but the character lacks the flavor requirements. =(

Duke of URL
2009-12-04, 01:00 PM
Another idea is to consider dipping some swordsage into your build. If you take 2 levels your get your Wisdom to AC (which you can bump with items and spells) that you can use in light armor, and Shadow Hand maneuvers. Taking stances like Island of Blades and Assassin's Stance are crucial for damage output. Island of Blades makes it so you're flanking so long as you've got another ally on the same enemy, so you can get your sneak attacks in, and Assassin's stance gives you an additional +2d6 sneak attack. You can't use them together, unfortunately, but still, changing stance is a swift action. Just make sure that when you take the swordsage levels you take them at 9th and 10th levels, so your initiator level will be high enough to get 3rd level maneuvers.

-X

This.

And then pick up the Shadow Blade feat, since you're going to use Shadow Hand stances, equip with Shadow Hand weapons (shortswords should work), and you get to add Dex to damage.

Jergmo
2009-12-04, 01:16 PM
This.

And then pick up the Shadow Blade feat, since you're going to use Shadow Hand stances, equip with Shadow Hand weapons (shortswords should work), and you get to add Dex to damage.

Don't Swordsages have to be Lawful?

Edit: Also, what about this feat from Song and Silence? Seem worthwhile to take?

Chink in the Armor [General]
You are an expert at slipping a weapon between armor
plates or into seams.
Prerequisite: Expertise
Benefit : Ifyou take a standard action to study an opponent, you can ignore half of his or her armor bonus (rounded down) during your next single attack- only bonuses from actual armor (including natural armor) are halved, not those from shields, enhancement bonuses tc armor, or magic items that provide an armor bonus.

ErrantX
2009-12-04, 01:24 PM
Don't Swordsages have to be Lawful?

Edit: Also, what about this feat from Song and Silence? Seem worthwhile to take?

Chink in the Armor [General
You are an expert at slipping a weapon between armo
plates or into seams-
Prerequisite: Expertise-
Benefit : Ifyou take a standard action to study an oppo
nent, you can ignore half of his or her armor bonus
(rounded down) during your next single attack- only
bonuses from actual armor (including natural armor) are
halved, not those from shields, enhancement bonuses tc
armor, or magic items that provide an armor bonus-

Definitely take Shadow Blade. I totally flaked and failed to mention it. Swordsages have no alignment requirements.

As for the feat... eh? It's 3.0, costs an action a round before so it sucks action economy wise, and really just isn't amazing. I'd say it's trash.

-X

Draz74
2009-12-04, 01:26 PM
Don't Swordsages have to be Lawful?
No. No alignment restrictions.


Edit: Also, what about this feat from Song and Silence? Seem worthwhile to take?

Worthless. Spending a standard action to ignore armor is already iffy (a la the Spot the Weak Point skill trick). Spending a standard action to ignore half of armor? Really not worth it.

There are lots of better ways to turn melee attacks into touch attacks to bypass armor. Check out the Amulet of Heartseeking in the MIC, for example.