[Abstraction/3.5] Ranks in Perform?...

[Zovc]

When statting myself, I'll usually give myself ranks in Perform (Guitar), or more specifically Perform (Six-String Guitar) and Perform (Twelve-String Guitar) if needed.

I never know how many ranks to give myself, but I usually end up putting 4 just because I usually end up considering myself an Expert or Bard and have a lot of points (not trying to brag, but I probably should have a lot of skill points). When I think about it, I'm probably level 1 (maybe level 2, I don't think I'd be level 3), seeing as I've never really gone on adventures, but I have not died in quite a few situations, and I have used charisma-based skill and computer skills to solve some encounters.

When I compare myself to friends who play guitar, they're a lot better than I am. That's not to say that they couldn't have 4 ranks and Skill Focus (Guitar), or perhaps be level 2 and have 5 ranks plus skill focus, I just don't know what a rank in Perform measures.

What does Perform measure? Does it have anything to do with the number of "songs" (/dances/speeches/plays/poems, etc) one knows? Their familiarity with the appropriate theory? Their ability to learn new songs, or perhaps improvise songs?

[Heliomance]

It measures an abstraction far too granular and vague to actually accurately correlate to anything in real life.

[Zovc]

So you think, there's no real way to look at a (real) performance and say anything beyond, "He has ranks in perform," or "He has no ranks in perform?"

[ocdscale]

So you think, there's no real way to look at a (real) performance and say anything beyond, "He has ranks in perform," or "He has no ranks in perform?"

You might be able to say "it is likely he has high ranks in perform," or "it is likely he has higher ranks in perform than I do," or "is he untrained? It doesn't look like he has any ranks in perform," but that's about the end of it.

Just realize that the D&D rules aren't (even close to) a perfect model of life. They're abstractions in order to give structure to a game. I mean, just look at HP.

[Heliomance]

Not with any degree of accuracy, and not when by level 5 you've pretty much surpassed the absolute peak of human ability.

[Zovc]

Not with any degree of accuracy, and not when by level 5 you've pretty much surpassed the absolute peak of human ability.

You mean 5 ranks or 8 ranks?

Man, I've either considered myself to have, or gotten halfway to surpassing the absolute peak of human ability. I should probably rethink that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The ranks really arre only a single part of it. The pinnacle of human achievement, measured in modifiers, is a +21 or more modifier, maybe with a reroll ability.

Theory and creation are more Craft (music), as shown in RoS.

[Heliomance]

You mean 5 ranks or 8 ranks?

Man, I've either considered myself to have, or gotten halfway to surpassing the absolute peak of human ability. I should probably rethink that.

I mean that in general, a level 5 character is either at or past the limits of what a human can physically do.

[snoopy13a]

I think a better way would be to look at the DC levels of the perform skill and try to work backwards from there:


10 Routine performance. Trying to earn money by playing in public is essentially begging. You can earn 1d10 cp/day.
15 Enjoyable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d10 sp/day.
20 Great performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d10 sp/day. In time, you may be invited to join a professional troupe and may develop a regional reputation.
25 Memorable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d6 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of noble patrons and develop a national reputation.
30 Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant potential patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.

source: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

A masterwork instrument also gives off a +2 but let's take that out of consideration initially by saying that those are very expensive.

In order for a "garage" band to play local clubs, they'd need to hit the 15 DC. This would require a +5 modifier from skills and Cha bonus if they took 10. So reasonably talented musicians would have around 2 to 4 ranks in perform, a pure natural (Cha 18) would only need 1 rank while some one not naturally talented (Cha less than 12) would need 5+ ranks. So, you could level 1 people doing this.

I don't think this is a bad setup. Reasonably talented musicians will have a +5 to +9 modifier to perform as they are capable of doing small gigs but not of making the next step.

[Foryn Gilnith]

And this does keep in line with 4th/5th-level legendary characters having a +20 modifier and being able to hit that 30 consistently. The skill breakdown @ 5th-level:

+6 Charisma: 18 base, +3 age, +1 level
+8 skill ranks
+3 skill focus
+2 masterwork instrument
+1 Illiterate trait
+1 Specialized trait

Total +21. You can drop Specialized, a level, or two age categories if necessary.

[Sebastian]

What does Perform measure? Does it have anything to do with the number of "songs" (/dances/speeches/plays/poems, etc) one knows? Their familiarity with the appropriate theory? Their ability to learn new songs, or perhaps improvise songs?

I think many of those things could be better covered by a an appropriate Knowledge(art/music), or Craft or something similar, Perform represent how good you are at, well, perform, that would include improvising, IMHO. Remember that there is reason for Perform to be based on CHA, and not on INT or WIS.

Also, you could have a successful musician with few to none ranks in Perform, all he need are ranks in profession(musician), so you have a not so good musician/singer that still can make a lot of money out of it.

[Zovc]

I think many of those things could be better covered by a an appropriate Knowledge(art/music), or Craft or something similar, Perform represent how good you are at, well, perform, that would include improvising, IMHO. Remember that there is reason for Perform to be based on CHA, and not on INT or WIS.

Also, you could have a successful musician with few to none ranks in Perform, all he need are ranks in profession(musician), so you have a not so good musician/singer that still can make a lot of money out of it.

I suppose relevant Knowledge and Craft skills could even provide a synergy bonus to Perform skills? I know that I would be able to improvise a lot better if I knew theory better.

[SurlySeraph]

And this does keep in line with 4th/5th-level legendary characters having a +20 modifier and being able to hit that 30 consistently. The skill breakdown @ 5th-level:

+6 Charisma: 18 base, +3 age, +1 level
+8 skill ranks
+3 skill focus
+2 masterwork instrument
+1 Illiterate trait
+1 Specialized trait

Total +21. You can drop Specialized, a level, or two age categories if necessary.

I have just been struck with an overwhelming urge to stat out Johnny Cash and Willy Nelson.

[awa]

keep in mind that for a band you've got aid another actions going on from your band mates (although with that system really only one musician in the band need to be any good as long as the other can hit 10 regularly) couple band mates would make it a lot easier

[BobVosh]

I mean that in general, a level 5 character is either at or past the limits of what a human can physically do.

Level 1 untrained commoners can break get close to world records. 0 str modifier, 0 ranks they have a chance to jump 20 feet. Or 1. Average 10.5 feet jumps. According to wiki the world record is 29.4 feet, and womens record is 24.7 feet.

[Sliver]

Ranks in Perform decide if you can be viewed in the big TV up there in the plane of fire or something..

[ericgrau]

Learning a language requires only a single rank, so 1 rank represents a lot. I might even put yourself at 1 rank and your friends at 2. Someone starting out as a struggling (but very well educated) professional would have 4 and probably skill focus if they're serious.

Generally level 5 are the elite characters, so 8 ranks makes you an experienced professional. Level 11 are legendary, so the best in the world - which may or may not be still alive - may have 14 ranks and an ok ability score boost (+2 or +3). Beyond that most likely only includes dead people.

[Sliver]

I thought that speak language was most of the time a cross class skill, so you still need to invest 2 points in that..

Also, most see level 4-5 or 6 as the high levels of what we are familiar more or less in the real world.. Most will think of level 11 as non existent, IRL.