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Fizzban
2009-12-04, 01:17 PM
Which would make for a better gish build the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana or the stalwart sorcerer from Complete Mage?

Fizz

Mongoose87
2009-12-04, 01:18 PM
Battle sorcerer is a well-known trap.

Fizzban
2009-12-04, 01:25 PM
Battle sorcerer is a well-known trap.

Care to explain? I didn't know it was a trap Admiral Ackbar hasn't warned me yet.

Fizz

ErrantX
2009-12-04, 01:28 PM
Neither are particularly good. Sorcerers already have a terribly low number of spells to know, so cutting that down is just plain bad. If you want sorcerer magic and gishing, the well known Sorcadin is popular (Pal2/Sor4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacExor8), Duskblade is a strong choice for single class fun, and the Swiftblade, while often jacking you out of 9th level magic, is still a strong and fun choice.

As far as either choice, if I had to pick, I'd choose Battle Sorcerer over Stalwart.

-X

Eldariel
2009-12-04, 01:28 PM
Care to explain? I didn't know it was a trap Admiral Ackbar hasn't warned me yet.

Fizz

The basic issue is, Sorcerers get an awful few spells known as it stands. Losing more of those pretty much leaves you unable to cast all the spells you'd want to even just for gishing.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Grumman
2009-12-04, 01:32 PM
Remember, if you're PrCing out early (and as a Sorcerer-gish, why wouldn't you?) you keep suffering the penalties of reduced spells known or per day but stop accruing benefits. Stalwart Sorcerer does less damage to your abilities than Battle Sorcerer, so go for that one.

Tavar
2009-12-04, 01:33 PM
Plus, if you PrC out, which is essential for a gish, you can only cast spells granted by BS levels in armor.

ErrantX
2009-12-04, 01:35 PM
Remember, if you're PrCing out early (and as a Sorcerer-gish, why wouldn't you?) you keep suffering the penalties of reduced spells known or per day but stop accruing benefits. Stalwart Sorcerer does less damage to your abilities than Battle Sorcerer, so go for that one.

If I was straight classing I'd go straight Battle Sorcerer over Stalwart, I think the bonuses are better in Battle Sorcerer over Stalwart in a straight single class. In multiclass and PrC's, yeah, I'll agree with you.


Plus, if you PrC out, which is essential for a gish, you can only cast spells granted by BS levels in armor.

You can cast them in light armor, you're not required to cast them in armor. There is a small but fundamental difference here.

-X

KellKheraptis
2009-12-04, 01:38 PM
Here's a basic one for you :

Elven Generalist Wizard 6 (with hummingbird familiar)/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5

BAB 16
CL 17
Both 20 with Divine Power (I recommend the domain from UA if possible, as in addition to Divine Power, you get Giant Size)
3.0 style haste
And of course massive miss chances with the overwhelming chance to win initiative.

Tavar
2009-12-04, 01:40 PM
You can cast them in light armor, you're not required to cast them in armor. There is a small but fundamental difference here.

Sorry, not what I meant. What I was trying to say is that if you took if you PRC out, spells gained from the PrC levels cannot be cast in armor.

Zovc
2009-12-04, 01:41 PM
Battle Sorcerer doesn't play nice with prestige classes at all.

I can't say for Stalwart Sorcerer as I never looked at it.

Battle Sorcerer reduces his spells/day and spells known, if you prestige class out of it, you're only (hopefully) advancing the part of the class you gimped. If you stick with a regular Sorcerer and make your way into Abjurant Champion, you got more spells and are getting more spells (now with a better BAB than the B. Sorc.).

Of course, the reason most people will (happily) take the small hit to BAB in their builds (for a lot more spells, really) is because it's widely accepted that spells are much, much more powerful than a few points of BAB.

One thing to consider when playing with prestige classes: each level of spellcasting you lose is one more you need to get before you unlock epic casting. If you're not going to make it to an epic level, you can get level 9 spells at level 20 by losing no more than two levels of Sorcerer casting.

ErrantX
2009-12-04, 01:46 PM
Sorry, not what I meant. What I was trying to say is that if you took if you PRC out, spells gained from the PrC levels cannot be cast in armor.

Only if that PrC gives you its own spell progression (such as Suel Arcanamach or Sublime Chord). If it's something that grants "+1 existing spellcasting class" then it is -exactly- like you had advanced in the spellcasting class of your choice, in this case battle sorcerer, so you'd still cast spells in armor without penalty.

-X

Kalirren
2009-12-04, 02:00 PM
D&D 3.5 is not kind to gishes. To pull off a decent gish build you really have to do your homework, because it almost inevitably involves extensive prestige-classing.

If you want a single base class that is essentially flavored as an arcane-spellcasting martial character, it's probably simpler just to come up with your own compromise with your DM, considering that anything you come up with together will be better suited to the power level that your DM is running at.

qoalabear
2009-12-04, 02:37 PM
Sorry, not what I meant. What I was trying to say is that if you took if you PRC out, spells gained from the PrC levels cannot be cast in armor.

SRD excerpts:

on Battle Sorcerer

A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

Loremaster (similarly for just about any casting PrC)

Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.


I can see how you're reading it that way. The Battle Sorcerer text is oddly worded compared to the Armored Mage class feature on Duskblade and the like.

The bolded part of the PrC "Spells per Day" block should hopefully cover it so that the new spells are "derived from class levels of battle sorceror." (At least by RAI if not RAW)


Answering OP

Stalwart Sorceror: the penalty is lighter, but you get next to nothing. If you're making a gish, you can get the proficiency almost ANYWHERE ELSE. It's not really worth the 2 hit points per sorceror level, especially once you PrC out. You don't get ANYTHING from it when you're taking the PrC and continue to know one less spell. Without BAB or anything else combat-wise, this alone can't make you a gish. NOT WORTH IT.

Battle Sorceror: heavy penalty to spells known and spells/day, but you get a decent crop of benefits. Casting spells in armor (make heavy armor out of mithral. It becomes medium. Take battle caster feat (Complete Arcane) so you can now cast in medium. profit.) can be put to good use. The 3/4BAB and d8 hit dice will help keep your sorc levels from holding back your combat abilities until you PrC. MAYBE. There are other ways to cast in armor.

Weigh your reduced sorceror spells against other classes/options that let you cast in armor and against some of the gish builds that float around. Battle Sorceror is probably not worth it, but this is your character; do what makes you happy.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-04, 02:49 PM
Also, are you hellbent on playing a sorcerer? If so, here's one off the top of my head, that's also a valid multithreat.

Bard 8/Spellthief 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1

Gets trapfinding, 9th level arcane spells, all the nice perks of AC, and a fantastic CL thanks to Master Spellthief. Also immune to fear, and also capable of picking up extra damage in addition to arcane strike from dragonfire inspiration if you've got the feats for it. Bladesinger needs to be replaced with something else though...too feat intensive. If you don't mind the hit to spells (you'll still get 9's with 9 effective SC levels), maybe dump the bladesinger level and less bard so you can snag a melee class level or two. One level dip in Barb for Lion Totem would be awesome with all the melee potential, though without partial BAB, you'd have to recalc a bunch of crap to make it line up right. Speaking of which, The King of Combustion (tm) from 339 used JPM to good effect, and still had casting as a Wizard 17. Last but not least, if you're willing to cheese it up a bit, you can snag the entire Sor/Wiz list on an Ur-Priest, and those are very gish friendly. In fact, with the right layout, you can get Arcane and Divine 9's plus 9th level maneuvers and BAB of like 17 pre-epic.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-04, 02:59 PM
You should only use either if you cannot use most/any of the standard Gish PrCs, or if you have to stay single-classed Sorcerer for some reason and still want to be a Gish. The only other reason would be to use the Battle Sorcerer's better BAB to qualify a little earlier for a PrC, though it is seldom necessary to do so.

A Gish should get weapon/armor proficiencies from multiclassing, not from taking a Sorcerer variant. A gish doesn't have to be able to cast spells in armor, Spellsword 1 gives 10% ASF reduction which should be plenty. That will cover both a +1 Animated Mithral Heavy Shield and a suit of +1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate. You could instead wear the breastplate with a Thistledown Suit from RotW and have 0% ASF, and just cast the spell Shield or use a Mithral Buckler, and not even need the level of Spellsword. With Abjurant Champion the spell Shield will grant a +9 AC bonus, and (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED will also have its AC bonus increased by +5, so there's no need to even wear armor at all.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-04, 04:45 PM
Yea, they are both Akbarian Traps. You're hosing your Spells Known in order to get mediocre fighting ability.

Hell, a better one would be:

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5

Casting stat to all saves, casting in Mithral Chain Shirt without ASF, Better BAB than either variant, and STILL ends up with better casting than either sorcerer variant.

Pluto
2009-12-04, 07:22 PM
Battle Sorcerer's weaknesses are highly overstated.

Until level 15, a Battle Sorcerer is as good a gish as any with a Sorcerer base.

Comparing
Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
to
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
(that's still the standard Sorcadin, yes?):


BA and HP are equal. Battle sorcerer doesn't have much trouble when it hits Sorcerer 3 (my usual sticking point for gishes... that's just an ugly level), but they're about the same.
Saves clearly favor Sorcadin (a Good Fort dip + Divine Grace is the bee's knees).
Between levels 1 and 8*, the Battle Sorcerer has the same spells known list as the Sorcadin and spell slots of the next higher level.
Between levels 9 and 12*, the BS has one level higher spells at the cost of a single level 1 spell known. The cost grows by one level of spells at each level past 12 -- I'd say the BS is safely ahead until around level 14. Then casting strength becomes debatable.
Battle Sorcerer fits its archetype from level 1, can wear armor and can grab Arcane Strike at level 6. None of these is relevant in comparing power levels, but they make a gish feel better to me.


*Levels 1-13 is the scope of around 95% of campaigns I've played. If you're the type to stick to the 15+ range, BS becomes questionable depending on how strongly you value high-level spells compared to tactical versatility.

Overall in the level 1-14 range, I would consider the BS to be a stronger offensive option with its advanced spell progression and the Sorcadin a stronger defensive option with its boosted saves. I would judge them as relatively balanced, leaning slightly toward the BS on the "Best defense is a good offense" principle.

Battle Sorcerer also has the bonus of providing a viable 1-class gish for groups that frown upon builds too complex to fit in a Character Sheet's "Class" line.

Thurbane
2009-12-04, 09:09 PM
You could go plain Sorcerer and use other ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133282) to cast in armor.

...also, the Spell Shield ACF (Dungeonscape) is pretty handy for gish Sorcerers.

Kantolin
2009-12-04, 09:25 PM
As a note, unless there's something I'm missing, combining the two variants gives you nothing but positives except at two levels: 3, and 20.

Or more accurately, if you're already a Battle Sorceror, you may as well also go Stalwart Sorceror since you hardly lose anything else.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-04, 09:28 PM
As a note, unless there's something I'm missing, combining the two variants gives you nothing but positives except at two levels: 3, and 20.

Or more accurately, if you're already a Battle Sorceror, you may as well also go Stalwart Sorceror since you hardly lose anything else.

It's generally suggested (or is it actually a rule?) that a character can't take two variants of the same class.

Kantolin
2009-12-04, 09:33 PM
It's generally suggested (or is it actually a rule?) that a character can't take two variants of the same class.

Ah, I was unaware of that.

In some cases, I can understand - but in this case, both give you a 'lose spells, gain this benifit', so I'm less certain here. Either way, in this case you also are practically getting something for nothing, so maybe that's not to be suggested unless battle sorceror is in fact weak enough to make it okay.

Unless it is in fact a rule somewhere, in which nevermind entirely. :P

Flickerdart
2009-12-04, 09:37 PM
It's generally suggested (or is it actually a rule?) that a character can't take two variants of the same class.
As long as you have stuff to give up, you can keep stacking them, I think. It's just usually not a good idea.