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barteem
2009-12-04, 01:53 PM
Strictly R.A.W.
Is it possible?
The protagonist in my web comic can cast it.
Does so HERE (http://sticknia.com/index.php?id=20).
But I'm not sure this is by the book.
In the game I run, any spell a bard can cast, a sorc. can cast if exposed to it.
What do you guys think?

Kalirren
2009-12-04, 02:09 PM
My answer is yes.

It's been pointed out on this forum before that there's a difference in the wording of sorcerer and wizard spellcasting:

Compare

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

with

"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

It follows that the designers' conception of the sorcerer spellcasting niche was different from the wizard's, in that a sorcerer had arcane -power- whereas the the wizard had arcane -knowledge-. A sorcerer is more likely to make up/cast a spell that is not known to the wizards, more likely to look at magic in terms of effects instead of mechanisms. A sorcerer learning how to simulate effects that are created by bards is perfectly concordant with this class conception.

erikun
2009-12-04, 02:14 PM
A sorcerer cannot cast the spell Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm), as it is not on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Only a bard or cleric can cast it.

If you're houseruling that sorcerers can cast spells from the Bard list also, then I see no problem with them learning Silence. Do be aware, though, that there are bard spells which might not be appropriate for a sorcerer - such as cure wounds and just (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) few (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonster.htm) spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mislead.htm) lower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowWalk.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm) than what a sorcerer would normally learn.

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 02:15 PM
RAW, it is not on the Wiz/Sorc spell list, so no.

However, by RAW, you can also research spells as both a wizard or a sorcerer (subject to DM approval) so if you want your sorcerer to come up with a silence spell, all you need is the go-ahead.

If you have it, Spell Compendium has Suspended Silence, which is better in many ways. 3rd-level spell.

Silence is also in the Spell Domain, so a wiz/sorc can get it by getting that domain.

erikun
2009-12-04, 02:20 PM
@Kalirren:

The reason RAW says "primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" is because there is the occasional odd spell, such as Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm), which is on the list but only castable by Wizards.

Myrmex
2009-12-04, 02:20 PM
It is also RAW that a sorcerer or bard, when gaining a new level, may learn a spell that isn't on the wizard/sorc list that they have gained some understanding of. See page 179, PHB.

ocdscale
2009-12-04, 02:34 PM
@Kalirren:

The reason RAW says "primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" is because there is the occasional odd spell, such as Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm), which is on the list but only castable by Wizards.

I'm not sure this is a good explanation:

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."
"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

Sorcerers cast arcane spells. Their arcane spells are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

The most natural reading seems to me to be the "sorcerer/wizard spell list" is the primary source from which Sorcerers draw their arcane spells. Primary source implies the existence of secondary sources.

You are saying "drawn primarily" is is meant to convey the fact that although sorcerers take some spells of their spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, they do not have access to all of them. That doesn't seem to me to be what the rule is saying.*

Compare:
"Membership at the Woodbush country club is drawn from the upper class."
"Membership at the Bushwood country club is drawn primarily from the upper class."
Is the most natural reading that: Bushwood does not accept some members of the upper class, or is it that Bushwood sometimes accepts members not in the upper class?

*I'm not saying that there aren't rules that do limit what a sorcerer can take, you give a good example of one. I'm arguing about what this particular rule is about.

Douglas
2009-12-04, 02:36 PM
It is also RAW that a sorcerer or bard, when gaining a new level, may learn a spell that isn't on the wizard/sorc list that they have gained some understanding of. See page 179, PHB.
I think that was intended for homebrewed spells, either custom researched by the character or made available by the DM through NPCs that had it. Such language might have been considered necessary specifically for those classes to point out that such things are not limited to wizards with their obvious knowledge and research fluff.

erikun
2009-12-04, 02:47 PM
I think the best way I can respond, Ocdscale, is with "Wizard of the Coast does a poor job of putting consistent, logical statements into english."

Even if what you say is true, it ultimately doesn't mean much of anything. Yes, there might be a "secondary" source for sorcerer spells, but there is no secondary source anywhere. There may later be a supplement that includes a sorcerer-only spell list, but under "new trumps old" and "specific trumps general" rules, the supplement would override the SRD language anyways.

And besides, "Membership at the Bushwood country club is drawn primarily from the upper class," does not imply "Membership at the Bushwood country club is drawn secondarily from Honk Kong." Implying that there isn't a second source doesn't mean much when we have total knowledge of all sources (SRD) and know that there is no second source.


((For the record, you make an excellent point. I was more trying to note where Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists diverged, although the sentence in question is probably just due to WotC poor editing.))

Heliomance
2009-12-04, 03:02 PM
There are also some sorceror-only spells in Races of the Dragon.

barteem
2009-12-04, 04:13 PM
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was confused by this.
Seems to be two camps.
I'm sticking with the "Can cast silence" camp.
:smallwink:

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 04:34 PM
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was confused by this.
Seems to be two camps.
I'm sticking with the "Can cast silence" camp.
:smallwink:

You're the DM, right? You can give sorcs cleric spells if you want, our "camps" are completely irrelevant.

I will add that I consider Silence a pretty poor choice for a sorcerer, though.

barteem
2009-12-04, 04:39 PM
Well, it worked for The Wraith (http://sticknia.com/index.php?id=20).
:smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-04, 04:55 PM
There are ways to get Silence on your spell list, but it involves tricksy things.

Arcane Disciple, or whatever the feat is called that lets you pick a domain as being on your spell list, then grab it that way

10 levels of Rainbow Servant. Text vs Table debate aside, you *CAN* get silence this way.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-04, 04:59 PM
And besides, "Membership at the Bushwood country club is drawn primarily from the upper class," does not imply "Membership at the Bushwood country club is drawn secondarily from Honk Kong."

However, it *does* mean that if you happen to be from Hong Kong, and you want to apply, they can't reject you solely on the basis that you aren't upper class.

Optimystik
2009-12-04, 05:05 PM
Well, it worked for The Wraith (http://sticknia.com/index.php?id=20).
:smallwink:

Was the dog using a spell or a spell-like ability? The latter has no verbal component to silence.

Not that your comic has to follow the rules 100%, but it seemed like you were interested in them, if this thread is any judge.

Temotei
2009-12-04, 05:07 PM
There are also some sorceror-only spells in Races of the Dragon.

I think there are some in Draconomicon and Dragon Magic too.

PumpkinJack
2009-12-09, 04:31 PM
A sorcerer who takes the Fiend-Blooded prestige class (from Heroes of Horror, I think) can pick up non-wizard enchantment spells like Silence. Just one idea.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-09, 04:55 PM
A sorcerer who takes the Fiend-Blooded prestige class (from Heroes of Horror, I think) can pick up non-wizard enchantment spells like Silence. Just one idea.

It can but IIRC the spells they get must be from the evocation, enchantment or ilussion schools OR have the fire descriptor

PS. Is silence an enchantment?

EDIT: Fot typos

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-09, 06:31 PM
Was the dog using a spell or a spell-like ability? The latter has no verbal component to silence.

Not that your comic has to follow the rules 100%, but it seemed like you were interested in them, if this thread is any judge.

Maybe it was using a Sound-based effect, which would be negated by the Silence spell.

PumpkinJack
2009-12-09, 07:57 PM
It can but IIRC the spells they get must be from the evocation, enchantment or ilussion schools OR have the fire descriptor

PS. Is silence an enchantment?

EDIT: Fot typos

I'm pretty sure Silence is an enchantment spell.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-09, 08:39 PM
I'm pretty sure two seconds on Google would have told you that it's an illusion. But the point is moot anyway.

Sorcerers can already create Silence effects - Suspended Silence, as before listed. Duration caps out (and starts at) 6 rounds after activation, and costs 50 gp; but has its own perks as well. Conceptually, giving sorcerers normal Silence is hardly an abomination.

Thurbane
2009-12-09, 09:46 PM
FYI, Fiend-Blooded can add Illusion spells as well.

PumpkinJack
2009-12-11, 12:10 PM
I'm pretty sure two seconds on Google would have told you that it's an illusion. But the point is moot anyway.

Sorcerers can already create Silence effects - Suspended Silence, as before listed. Duration caps out (and starts at) 6 rounds after activation, and costs 50 gp; but has its own perks as well. Conceptually, giving sorcerers normal Silence is hardly an abomination.

Of course, it's illusion. I'm not sure what I was thinking with Enchantment. I just remembered brainstorming a sorcerer with some cool non-wizard spells like Silence.