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View Full Version : [3.5] SR active when asleep or KO'd?



Choco
2009-12-04, 03:52 PM
I was just wondering if there is any official word on whether or not a creature's SR is intact when it is asleep or has been KO'd.

The reason I am asking is because I got a telepath psion who is dead set on mind switching with a great wyrm red dragon, and the team's plan is to KO one to deny it it's will save and possibly SR...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 03:56 PM
SR is always active. It takes an action to lower it, and actions to keep it lowered. Nothing short of death knocks it down.

Signmaker
2009-12-04, 03:58 PM
SR is always active. It takes an action to lower it, and actions to keep it lowered. Nothing short of death knocks it down.

Yup.

As for your SR-beating need, I suggest Assay Spell Resistance.

Choco
2009-12-04, 03:58 PM
Yeah I kinda thought so. Any way they could knock down the thing's SR then? I personally haven't come across anything that lowers or gets rid of someone's SR.

EDIT: Hmmm, Assay Spell Resistance would definitely work... so KO the dragon, cast Assay Spell Resistance, then take over it's body...

drengnikrafe
2009-12-04, 04:02 PM
Alternatively, you could (somehow) befriend it, then inform it you would be giving it a buff spell, thereby having it lower it's spell resistance to receive the buff. Followed by your evil schemes. Then again, that may be too much effort to put into a project like that, when there are better options available.

JeenLeen
2009-12-04, 04:12 PM
Alternatively, you could (somehow) befriend it, then inform it you would be giving it a buff spell, thereby having it lower it's spell resistance to receive the buff. Followed by your evil schemes. Then again, that may be too much effort to put into a project like that, when there are better options available.

I know (or think I recall) it being a standard action to lower spell resistance. What is the action to reactivate it? The dragon would get a Knowledge: Arcana check to recognize the spell, unless you do it Sudden Stilled, and if it's a free action to restore SR, you're in trouble. And doing it with that metamagic looks suspsicious.

Grumman
2009-12-04, 04:12 PM
Alternatively, you could (somehow) befriend it, then inform it you would be giving it a buff spell, thereby having it lower it's spell resistance to receive the buff.
The dragon's wisdom is 27, not 7. If he wants the buff, he'll cast it himself.

Choco
2009-12-04, 04:21 PM
This whole thing leads to another problem though... Even if the dragon is successfully KO'd and captured, and his body stolen, what do we do about our psion who is now in the body of a colossal red dragon? Are there any magic items or such that will allow him to pass as humanoid for a day, preferably while keeping his new physical stats?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-04, 04:24 PM
This whole thing leads to another problem though... Even if the dragon is successfully KO'd and captured, and his body stolen, what do we do about our psion who is now in the body of a colossal red dragon? Are there any magic items or such that will allow him to pass as humanoid for a day, preferably while keeping his new physical stats?That's what Metamorphosis is for.

Choco
2009-12-04, 04:27 PM
He doesn't have that power, plus it only lasts 1 min/level which wouldn't help much if we doing a dungeon crawl.

Douglas
2009-12-04, 04:32 PM
the team's plan is to KO one to deny it it's will save
That doesn't work. Creatures still get a will save when unconscious. The "counts as willing" thing only means that you can use spells like Teleport that specify willing targets.

Choco
2009-12-04, 04:38 PM
That doesn't work. Creatures still get a will save when unconscious. The "counts as willing" thing only means that you can use spells like Teleport that specify willing targets.

It will under our DM :smalltongue:

Will and Reflex saves are automatically assumed to fail if the target is asleep or KO'd. Fortitude are the only ones that you always get.

Douglas
2009-12-04, 04:44 PM
Is that an intentional house rule, or a DM that's not aware of RAW? If the latter I'd consider it dishonest to not point out the actual RAW to him and ask if he still wants to keep playing differently, and the actual RAW is that only a very few things ever actually deny a save completely, and unconsciousness is not on that list. It changes your dex modifier to -5 for reflex saves, but that's the extent of it and it has no effect on will saves beyond allowing "willing only" spells.

Asgardian
2009-12-04, 04:45 PM
The weapon enchantment Shattermantle "damages" spell resistance
(MIC 43)

Choco
2009-12-04, 04:46 PM
Is that an intentional house rule, or a DM that's not aware of RAW? If the latter I'd consider it dishonest to not point out the actual RAW to him and ask if he still wants to keep playing differently, and the actual RAW is that only a very few things ever actually deny a save completely, and unconsciousness is not on that list. It changes your dex modifier to -5 for reflex saves, but that's the extent of it and it has no effect on will saves beyond allowing "willing only" spells.

Yes, it's an intentional house rule. It didn't exist at first, till our group argued it should during one encounter where it would be GREATLY benefitial to us. So now it does, and has been used against us at every opportunity.

Also, I'll have to check out that weapon enchant when I get back to my books and force the melee types to use it, mixed with heartseeker amulet..

Douglas
2009-12-04, 04:57 PM
Ah. In that case, Assay Resistance (Spell Compendium) + True Casting (Complete Mage) will compensate for 20 points of SR. You may need a Ring of Spell Storing or similar, though, as True Casting (maybe Assay Resistance too, I'm not sure) has to be cast by the person it's going to benefit.

For the disguise, a psychoactive skin of proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) would do the trick.

None of this should be at all difficult for a party capable of knocking out a CR 26 dragon in the first place, and +20 on top of his own manifester level should be more than enough for an automatic success. A great wyrm red only has 32 SR.

Choco
2009-12-04, 05:57 PM
Ah yes that is perfect, thanks

ghashxx
2009-12-04, 10:00 PM
Yes, it's an intentional house rule. It didn't exist at first, till our group argued it should during one encounter where it would be GREATLY benefitial to us. So now it does, and has been used against us at every opportunity.

Also, I'll have to check out that weapon enchant when I get back to my books and force the melee types to use it, mixed with heartseeker amulet..

I agree with the reflex saves one, but the will save could end up being really brutal. Just don't ever dominate someone while they're asleep or I have a feeling you'll feel the receiving end of that shortly thereafter.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-04, 10:04 PM
Saves represent an element of luck. No matter how bad it is, a 20 is always a lucky break, and a 1 is always a bad break.

As such, they still apply when unconscious. Granted, a helpless creature has an effective dex of 0, which really negatively impacts the save, but still.

Hida Reju
2009-12-05, 05:02 AM
Saves represent an element of luck. No matter how bad it is, a 20 is always a lucky break, and a 1 is always a bad break.

As such, they still apply when unconscious. Granted, a helpless creature has an effective dex of 0, which really negatively impacts the save, but still.

I agree that Fortitude and Will should always be in effect for any spell or situation. But Reflex is a harder one to deal with especially with Warblades and their swap a reflex save with a concentration check Maneuver or multiclassed with 5+ classes for saves. More than one GM I know flat out denies reflex saves if you are immobilized or unconscious.

But according to RAW you get one regardless even if it does not makes sense.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-05, 10:00 AM
The thing is, Reflex saves represent exactly that - your body's reaction to some event, without conscious control. If you hold a heat lamp near a sleeping person's feet they'll pull away from it. The same thing happens with a Fireball. And D&D paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) isn't like real paralysis. In D&D most of your muscles still work. You keep breathing (whereas IRL something like curare is deadly because it paralyzes your diaphragm muscles and thus prevents breathing), swallowing (so you don't drown in your own saliva), and standing, which requires a lot of muscle control. Because D&D doesn't have facing rules, and you can continue to make reactive Spot checks that work in all directions, you're even turning to look around you. You just can't do anything with your arms or leave your 5' square.