Io, the True Dragon

[Tequila Sunrise]

Io isn’t the impartial, uncaring entity that most of us think he is – in reality the True Dragon is also the multiverse’s True and Ultimate Evil. He’s imprisoned for now, but the seals are weakening. He is gathering all manner of Evil to him, and some Good too – I hear he’s a very charming fellow who throws the most wonderful dinner parties…what? Sorry, anyway, he’s imprisoned within Adamant Mountain, the ultimate dungeon. Of course it’s another dungeon, he’s a dragon isn’t he? And yes, as the name implies, the mountain is made entirely of adamantine. And the mountain is enchanted with super duper extra strong anti-dimensional magic, so you can’t just blip in and out of trouble…*cough*…I mean, so that Io can’t escape.
--So says your DM, through some old sage git who dies of old age at this very moment, robbing him the chance to give you any more information. Ugh, no, Speak with Dead doesn’t work. He’s too crotchety to return from his eternal rest. No, don’t bother visiting him on the outer planes…

Sometimes I get really sick ideas. This one involves mashing together stats from some of the game’s most ill-conceived books – namely the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods – to create Io, the final BBEG. Just short of pun-pun stupidity, Io would be at the bottom of the final D&D dungeon: a Tomb of Horrors style monstrosity of near-endless foes using progressively more broken stats and tactics. The dungeon that, if your DM were crazy enough to run and insane enough to let you win, would result in him throwing up his hands and saying “FINE! You win D&D. Let’s do something easy now, like calculating the exact atomic mass of black hole 352.” Heck, a true optimizer can probably find a dozen ways to kill Io. Whaddya think, would you play it, even as a joke game?
Edit: In addition to the usual phat lewt scattered about the dungeon, Adamant Mountain contains special mushrooms. PCs who harvest and eat these large red polka-dotted mushrooms gain divine ranks, just to give them a theoretical snowball's chance in hel when they finally meet Io. For whatever belief-stretching reason, most of the mountain's monsters haven't thought to eat any mushrooms.

Io, the True Dragon
Io appears as the biggest dragon you’ve ever seen. I know I’ve said that about the last five dragons you’ve fought, but I promise I won’t say it again. It’s extra true this time. His scales, surprisingly enough, are flawless mythril plates of draconic perfection. How’re they different from Bahamut’s platinum scales and a silver’s silver scales? I dunno, they’re more shiny or something.
Really Colossal Dragon
Divine Rank: 25
Domains: Destruction, Luck, Trickery
Hit Dice: 60d12 + 1,920 (2,640)
I Go First: No, really, I have Supreme Initiative (+16)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 300 ft. good (60 squares), swim 60 ft. (12 squares), burrow 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 131 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +25 divine, +32 deflection, +60 natural), touch 71, flat-footed 119; 75% Miss Chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+133
Mm, Tasty Adventurer: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32)
I Slice and Dice Too: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32), Claws +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d8 + 16), Wings +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d6 + 16), Tail Slap +109 (4d8 + 48)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken, Crush, Frightful Presence, Tail Sweep, Spells
Special Qualities: Blind Sense 60 ft., Damage Reduction 50/+10, Energy Resistance (All) 45, Fast Healing 45, I’m Immune Sucka!, Keen Senses, Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll, Spell Resistance 50
I Laugh at Your Tricks: Fort +89, Ref +69, Will +89
Don’t Hate Me ‘Cause I’m Perfect: Str 75, Dex 35, Con 75, Int 75, Wis 75, Cha 75
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better: Bluff +120, Concentration +120, Diplomacy +120, Escape Artist +100, Hide +100, Intimidate +120, Knowledge (Arcane) +120, Listen +120, Move Silently +100, Search +120, Sense Motive +120, Spell Craft +120, Spot +120, Use Magic Device +120
Feats: Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Rapid Strike (Claws), Improved Rapid Strike (Wings), Large and in Charge, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Breath, Quicken Spell, Rapid Strike (Claws), Rapid Strike (Wings), Silent Spell, Still Spell
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Spell Casting, Improved Metamagic (3), Multispell (2)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Form, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Battle Sense, Clear Sight, Control Creatures (Dragons), Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Glibness, Divine Spell Casting, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Free Move, Instant Counter Spell, Instant Move, Power of Luck, Power of Truth, Rejuvenation, Shape Change, Shift Form, Supreme Initiative, True Shape Change
Environment: Adamant Mountain
Organization: Silly Mortal, They Don’t Know What to Do With Just One of Me
Challenge Rating: 40 + Divine Ranks = You Can’t Beat Me
Treasure: You’re Wearing My Newest Delivery
Alignment: Neutral, So You Can't Smite Me, Mwahahaha!

All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken: 80 ft. cone; 40d12 minty fresh damage; Reflex half (DC 72).
Crush: See MM, page 68; Huge or smaller foe; Reflex DC 72; 6d6 + 48 damage.
Frightful Presence: See MM, page 69; 600 ft. radius; Will DC 72.
Spells: Io casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer with the metamagic specialist feature. Because he’s extra special, Io has access to any spell list he wants. Spell DCs 42 + Spell Level.

Epic (6/day): True Contingent Resurrection:
True Contingent Resurrection
Necromancy [Healing] – (Silly mortal, conjurations that heal are stupid.)
Spell Craft DC: 92
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 quickened action
Range: Touch
Target: You or touched creature
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: Seed: life (DC 27). Factor: quickened spell (+28 DC), activates when subject dies (+25 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), no remains required (+4 DC ad hoc), no level loss (+4 DC ad hoc).
Effect: I’m back, biatch!

Spells I’ll Never Run Out Of:
32 (2/day)
31 (2/day)
30 (2/day)
29 (2/day)
28 (3/day)
27 (3/day)
26 (3/day)
25 (3/day)
24 (4/day)
23 (4/day)
22 (4/day)
21 (4/day)
20 (5/day)
19 (5/day)
18 (5/day)
17 (5/day)
16 (6/day)
15 (6/day)
14 (6/day)
13 (6/day)
12 (7/day)
11 (7/day)
10 (7/day)
9 (12/day): Freedom, Imprisonment, Mass Heal
8 (13/day): Dimensional Lock, Greater Spell Immunity, Moment of Prescience
7 (13/day): Blasphemy, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Restoration
6 (13/day): Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Heal
5 (13/day): Break Enchantment, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Wall of Force
4 (14/day): Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Superior Magic Fang (SC)
3 (14/day): Contagion, Haste, Magic Circle, Slow
2 (14/day): Bark Skin, Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Protection from Arrows, Wraith Strike (SC)
1 (14/day): Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
0 (6/day): Who cares, honestly?

Tail Sweep: See MM, page 68; Large or smaller foes; 50 ft. radius; Reflex DC 72; 4d6 + 48 damage.
Damage Reduction: A weapon ignores 5 points of Io’s damage reduction per enhancement bonus it has.
I’m Immune Sucka!: Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Banishment Effects, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Energy Drain, Imprisonment Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Paralysis Effects, Poison, Rebuking, Sleep Effects, Stunning, Transmutation, Turning
Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll: Seriously, even if my bonuses weren’t crazy high, I’m a freakin’ overdeity. That means I’m treated as rolling a 20 on any check, saving throw or attack roll. Roll those attack rolls anyway though, I might get a critical threat! Oh and I always deal maximum damage – whether physical, breath weapon or spell. (Though, as if I would use a direct damage spell – they’re so nooooob!)

[Chrono22]

Pun Pun is the true draconic overdeity. Kobolds were made in his image.

[Dixieboy]

25 divine ranks?

Why even give him stats, the rules for facing this thing is "You die".

[Optimystik]

25 divine ranks?

Why even give him stats, the rules for facing this thing is "You die".

Rule #1 of D&D: If it has stats, it can die.

[Kris Strife]

25 divine ranks?

Why even give him stats, the rules for facing this thing is "You die".

If this is 3.5 then by giving him stats, you made him weaker. After all, the Optimizer's motto is: If it has stats, we can kill it.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Though I thought rule 1 of D&D was: Fire solves everything.

[Arakune]

If this is 3.5 then by giving him stats, you made him weaker. After all, the Optimizer's motto is: If it has stats, we can kill it.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Though I thought rule 1 of D&D was: Fire solves everything.

That's just the corollarium.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

A true D&D diety would not be statted. Seriously. I don't understand the point of making gods kill-able, would that then make them, you know, not gods? Sure I still use them, but I usually keep their power based on people. The more worshippers, the more powerful, and that's about it.

But as far as dragons go, aren't there super high powered dragons that take every action as a free action and are insanely hard to kill?

[Starbuck_II]

A true D&D diety would not be statted. Seriously. I don't understand the point of making gods kill-able, would that then make them, you know, not gods? Sure I still use them, but I usually keep their power based on people. The more worshippers, the more powerful, and that's about it.

But as far as dragons go, aren't there super high powered dragons that take every action as a free action and are insanely hard to kill?

But Mystra died like 4 times in FR: are you saying she was never really a god?

[Kris Strife]

That's just the corollarium.

No, the corollarium is: If fire fails to solve the problem, you didn't use enough fire.

[Mongoose87]

Just give him Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor) and call it a day.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Pun Pun is the true draconic overdeity. Kobolds were made in his image.
Psht, Pun-Pun clearly goes totally beyond RAI. Io only mostly goes beyond RAI.


Why even give him stats, the rules for facing this thing is "You die".
Because if you peek behind the DM screen when he's not looking -- and who doesn't? -- and you see "Io wins," you're not going to want to play through his bad joke. Er, I mean, his lovingly prepared adventure.

Seriously, give the thread a few more posts and someone will find a way to beat him.

[Bibliomancer]

I really don't think that Supreme Initiative is going to cut it, unless one of Io's divine powers is to be a dire tortoise.

I agree that the gods shouldn't have stats. I tend to consider those things as the god's avatar. Sure, if you kill it, you've inconvenienced the deity, at the price of dying the next time you enter the plane to which the god is native.

[nekomata2]

But Mystra died like 4 times in FR: are you saying she was never really a god?

Hey, thats not her fault. Once was Karsus and his ubermagic, and both other times were other dieties; Helm and Cyric. And the Mystra killed by Cyric was different.

[starwoof]

If gods didn't have stats... how would we kill them and take their portfolios? :smallconfused: Killing deities is a very important part of DnD.

[Starbuck_II]

Just give him Divine Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor) and call it a day.
So Elans are unaffected since Elans can't die from old age. They are immortals.

Or does mortal mean not a god in this text? Because if it means can die then it kills other gods.

[hamishspence]

Seeing as overdeities (according to Deities and Demigods) don't have stats, this would be more a Divine Rank 25 Greater Deity.

I could see Greater Deities continuing to scale up past 20 in the right setting, even if it isn't RAW.

[erikun]

Why is Io NE anyways? :smallannoyed: On the other hand, he "only" has 2000 HP and 130 AC. I don't think it would take THAT much to get past him, especially if you're getting up into absurb epic levels.

It reminds me of the advanced Treant Druid I once made. Wow, that brings back memories.

I agree, though. Only stat stuff you want killed.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Just give him Divine Splendor and call it a day.
Edit: In addition to the usual phat lewt scattered about the dungeon, Adamant Mountain contains special mushrooms. PCs who harvest and eat these large red polka-dotted mushrooms gain divine ranks, just to give them a theoretical snowball's chance in hel when they finally meet Io. For whatever belief-stretching reason, most of the mountain's monsters haven't thought to eat any mushrooms.


If gods didn't have stats... how would we kill them and take their portfolios? :smallconfused: Killing deities is a very important part of DnD.
Exactly. :smallcool:


I could see Greater Deities continuing to scale up past 20 in the right setting, even if it isn't RAW.
I could make him a DR 25,000 Greater Deity!

But no...that would be a bit silly. :smallwink:


Why is Io NE anyways?
Because all BBEGs must be mustache-twirling evil dudes, or you're just not playing D&D.

[chiasaur11]

So Elans are unaffected since Elans can't die from old age. They are immortals.

Or does mortal mean not a god in this text? Because if it means can die then it kills other gods.

Warforged would be immune as well.

God hunting robots are GO!

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Go look at Great wyrm time dragon. . . . . . GO LOOK. . .

Time stop at will. . . .
SR 99, CL 37, it's breath weapon gives you AGE CATEGORIES or throws you out of time and you dont exist again till time catches up with you. its a CR 90



so who would win?

[Chrono22]

By RAW, Io would win. Salient abilities are pretty ridiculous.

I actually participated in a game where I built an epic dragon, in an attempt to defeat a greater deity. I ended up having to flee to the far realm to survive the fight.

[RandomNPC]

this reminds me of the godslayer presteige class a friend built, you got all kinds of saves and bonus abilities, but only if you were an atheist on the hunt. They see deific beings as the next strongest monster in a list of the next strongest monsters.

every once in a while thirty or so of these people will get together, go god hunting, and one will return with portable holes filled with slain friends, and begin rebuilding the group from scratch. The returning member never speaks of why they returned, it is assumed mercy, but the gods just like a good laugh once in a while.

[Bogardan_Mage]

A true D&D diety would not be statted. Seriously. I don't understand the point of making gods kill-able, would that then make them, you know, not gods?
Not at all. Gods die all the time in numerous mythologies, particularly the Norse mythology that modern fantasy is heavily based on.

[Dixieboy]

Not at all. Gods die all the time in numerous mythologies, particularly the Norse mythology that modern fantasy is heavily based on.

The only one that died before ragnarok was Balder (Or do you English types say "baldur", i always forget).

So saying "Particularly" might be a bit wonky, I'd personally use the Egyptians as an example. (They have a god that dies every single day after all)

[Gamerlord]

The best I ever got to "Unkillable monster" was a half-fiend red dragon great wyrm.....and his half-brother half-fiend gold dragon great wyrm tag-teaming the PCs.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Go look at Great wyrm time dragon. . . . . . GO LOOK. . .

Time stop at will. . . .
SR 99, CL 37, it's breath weapon gives you AGE CATEGORIES or throws you out of time and you dont exist again till time catches up with you. its a CR 90
There's also the Immortals' Handbook, which has CRs in the hundreds, so I hear. The problem with published monsters is that they usually have some glaring inadequacy; the time dragon for example has a CL of a measly 37...as a CR 90 monster.

Io on the other hand is completely overpo...I mean, well rounded for his CR. A gestalt monster, if you will. :smallbiggrin:


The only one that died before ragnarok was Balder (Or do you English types say "baldur", i always forget).
Not that it matters for pronunciation, but we use 'Balder' too.

Incidentally I've been reading up on the Norse gods lately and while the gods themselves don't die very often, their goats do. Apparently Thor rode around on a chariot pulled by two goats, who he ate for dinner every night and then resurrected with Mjollnir (his hammer) every morning.

Mjollnir -- I have no clue how to pronounce that. If anyone does, be a friend, aye?

[Kris Strife]

Mjollnir -- I have no clue how to pronounce that. If anyone does, be a friend, aye?

See if you can find the 90s Hulk and Fantastic Four cartoons that have Thor cameo. I know how to say it, but not how to properly type out the pronunciation.

[Jothki]

I pronounce it as the M being nearly silent, slightly affecting the pronounciation of the J before it shifts to a more traditional sound.

The "joll" is pronouced as in "jolly", while the "nir" is pronouced as in "nerd".

[Wings of Peace]

A true D&D diety would not be statted.

But.... almost every D&D deity IS statted.

[deuxhero]

Hmm, that include Pelor and Khelemvor? Where?

Hmm, that would be an interesting op challenge if there were.

[Mongoose87]

But.... almost every D&D deity IS statted.

The Lady of Pain isn't, and she's the only one that truly scares me.

[tyckspoon]

Hmm, that include Pelor and Khelemvor? Where?

Hmm, that would be an interesting op challenge if there were.

Deities and Demigods has most of them, I think. They're actually pretty lame, mostly because the book was written assuming the Epic rules mostly don't exist. So instead of somebody like Boccob or Vecna being a ludicrously epic Wizard with Epic Spellcasting, they're a Wizard 20/Cleric (presumably of themselves) 20 with the Divine Spellcasting salient ability. Most of the challenge in those particular writeups comes from finding something the deity isn't immune to and pumping it up big enough to overcome the assorted bonuses they get from their divine ranks (most gods could be burnt down with Searing Spell Orbs of Fire pretty easily, for example.)

[cupkeyk]

wikipedia to the rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mjolnir)

I know its pronounced like fjord, Bjorn or Bjork: So its myolnir. If you can't read IPA symbols click on the pronunciation key for Mjolnir and you're directed there.

[Voice of Reason]

Step 1) Enter Dungeon.
Step 2) Eat one (1) mushroom; gain one divine rank.
Step 3) Gain the Divine Archery salient ability
Step 4) Leave Dungeon.
Step 5) Divine (pardon the pun) Io's location. In case of failure, invent an epic spell to do it; you've got all the time you need. After all, Io is trapped right? Those anti-dimensional barriers aren't just there because the DM hates us right?
Step 6) Pelt Io full of enchanted arrows/projectiles until he dies; there's only so many ways to cheat death in a day.

Now, it's not exactly a magic bullet, pardon the pun, but given unlimited time, at unlimited range, and with a party of epic-level spellcasters to run troubleshooting (such as if, say, Io runs the Pun-Pun "I win" card) it can be done.

[BobVosh]

Step 5) Divine (pardon the pun) Io's location. In case of failure, invent an epic spell to do it; you've got all the time you need. After all, Io is trapped right? Those anti-dimensional barriers aren't just there because the DM hates us right?

Ahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaha . That's cute, of course the DM hates you. He is pitting you against an epic dungeon which is described as "a Tomb of Horrors style monstrosity of near-endless foes using progressively more broken stats and tactics", and the highest level god in D&D.

[Bogardan_Mage]

The only one that died before ragnarok was Balder (Or do you English types say "baldur", i always forget).

So saying "Particularly" might be a bit wonky, I'd personally use the Egyptians as an example. (They have a god that dies every single day after all)
I wasn't really thinking of specific examples, more that they could theoretically be killed. They could even die of old age if they stopped eating the immortality apples.

[Voice of Reason]

Ahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaha . That's cute, of course the DM hates you. He is pitting you against an epic dungeon which is described as "a Tomb of Horrors style monstrosity of near-endless foes using progressively more broken stats and tactics", and the highest level god in D&D.

Oh, but of course the DM hates us. However, as long as he gives us the illusion that we have a chance, he can claim that he's being "fair." So long as we can provide a situation in which the DM has no alternative but to "cheat," then we can prove that the DM is a tyrant. That's the real goal here :smallwink:

[Tequila Sunrise]

wikipedia to the rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mjolnir)

I know its pronounced like fjord, Bjorn or Bjork: So its myolnir. If you can't read IPA symbols click on the pronunciation key for Mjolnir and you're directed there.
I wonder why it is that every language translation into English requires its own damn sub-language. If it's pronounced Myolnir, why write it with a J? *sigh*


Step 1) Enter Dungeon.
Step 2) Eat one (1) mushroom; gain one divine rank.
Step 3) Gain the Divine Archery salient ability
Step 4) Leave Dungeon.
Step 5) Divine (pardon the pun) Io's location. In case of failure, invent an epic spell to do it; you've got all the time you need. After all, Io is trapped right? Those anti-dimensional barriers aren't just there because the DM hates us right?
Step 6) Pelt Io full of enchanted arrows/projectiles until he dies; there's only so many ways to cheat death in a day.

Now, it's not exactly a magic bullet, pardon the pun, but given unlimited time, at unlimited range, and with a party of epic-level spellcasters to run troubleshooting (such as if, say, Io runs the Pun-Pun "I win" card) it can be done.
Oooh, this is pretty creative! I like it. Your DM would probably even stutter a little before screaming "NO!" to this tactic.

[ocdscale]

I wonder why it is that every language translation into English requires its own damn sub-language. If it's pronounced Myolnir, why write it with a J? *sigh*

I'm somewhat certain "Mjollnir" isn't an English translation of anything.

Edit: It's more of a romanization/transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization) than it is a translation. Which of course explains why it doesn't necessarily adhere to English pronunciation.

Edit 2: Kazrasa, I agree. "Mjollnir" is as much as 'translation into English' as Deutschland is, that is to say, neither are translations.

[AshDesert]

I'm somewhat certain "Mjollnir" isn't an English translation of anything.
What's you're saying is about the equivalent of saying "I don't get what they translated it to Deutschland, if it's pronounced Doychland, why not write it that way?"

Edit: It's more of a romanization/transliteration than it is a translation.

Completely off-topic, but they didn't translate it to Deutschland. They translated it to Germany.

Also, I gotta say that the Divine Archery trick is pretty cool, even though the DM would probably turn it down. Of course, Pun-Pun could beat Io, what with his infinite stats and whatnot.

[Eldan]

Basically, it's spelled Mjöllnir, at least in german, and I guess also in skandinavian languages. It's also how you pronounce it, since, at least in german, spelling is 1:1 equivalent to pronounciation. Of course, english has the problem that this isn't true. Here, I suspect, they just left out the Umlaut on the "ö" and made it into Mjollnir.

[Mongoose87]

It's also how you pronounce it, since, at least in german, spelling is 1:1 equivalent to pronounciation.

This is why I have always admired German, as a native English speaker, and occasional French speaker.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I guess it's another of those things the english took from french when they should have taken it from german :smalltongue:

[Tequila Sunrise]

Basically, it's spelled Mjöllnir, at least in german, and I guess also in skandinavian languages.
If you were to accurately translate it into English, as it is pronounced in German, how would you spell it? I'm going to talk to my German speaking player tomorrow about this, but I want a native speaker's (?) opinion too.


It's also how you pronounce it, since, at least in german, spelling is 1:1 equivalent to pronounciation. Of course, english has the problem that this isn't true. Here, I suspect, they just left out the Umlaut on the "ö" and made it into Mjollnir.
Because we don't add dots or squiggles to our vowels: when we need a new vowel sound we roll on this chart to decide its spelling:

1d100
1-4: Leave the vowel as-is.
5-11: Add a W.
12-17: Add an I.
18-21: Change to E.
22-29: Add an E and remove preceding consonant.
30-35: Add a Y.
36-40: Change to Y.
41-44: Precede with Y.
45-48: Add a U.
49-56: Change to U.
57-62: Add an A.
63-66: Change to A and remove following consonant.
67-71: Change to I.
72-73: Add an O.
74-78: Change to O.
79-89: Add E to the end of the word, then roll again.
90-100: Change all S's and K's to C's, then roll twice again.

[AllisterH]

A true D&D diety would not be statted. Seriously. I don't understand the point of making gods kill-able, would that then make them, you know, not gods? Sure I still use them, but I usually keep their power based on people. The more worshippers, the more powerful, and that's about it.



That's not historically true...2e and 4e to my knowledge are the only editions where a mortal can't kill a god (in 2e, you have to kill off all their worshippers and in 4e, you have to be epic level yourself -aka Demigod yourself).

However, the Immortals (D&D doesn't really have gods per se) and the gods of 1e and 3.c were certainly killable by mortals.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's not historically true...2e and 4e to my knowledge are the only editions where a mortal can't kill a god (in 2e, you have to kill off all their worshippers and in 4e, you have to be epic level yourself -aka Demigod yourself).I'm pretty sure they've figured out ways to kill gods by 15 at this point, at least in 4.x.

[Volkov]

If Io was evil, Bahumat would not have ever been born.

[AllisterH]

I'm pretty sure they've figured out ways to kill gods by 15 at this point, at least in 4.x.

I thought gods in 4e had the "are totally uneffected by attacks from non-epic characters trait"

I know I've seen that on some deities somewhere...

[Starbuck_II]

If Io was evil, Bahumat would not have ever been born.

Even evil creatures love their son, ever see Seed of Chucky? Chucky's son Glen is good to neutral, and hates murder.

[Volkov]

Even evil creatures love their son, ever see Seed of Chucky? Chucky's son Glen is good to neutral, and hates murder.

Bahumat is not the only good dragon god, there are a few more, all of which are in the draconomicon.

[quicker_comment]

"Myolnir"? That can't be right, it seems like it leaves out the difference between "o" and "ø". Björk, Bjørn, Mjølner, not Bjork, Bjorn or Mjolner. (Not fjørd. We don't just add the slashes randomly.)

I assume the IPA does clarify how "ø" is pronounced, but for a simple fuzzy explanation, it's like the "u" in "hurt".

[Voice of Reason]

Oooh, this is pretty creative! I like it. Your DM would probably even stutter a little before screaming "NO!" to this tactic.

Thank you! Of course, if this were my DM, I'd get one sentence into the explanation; he'd shout "NO!" the first time I picked up a sourcebook. The last session I went to, the DM listed off the sourcebooks, and when he was done, pointed at me and said "But you can only use core rulebooks!" He was only half joking.

[Volkov]

Thank you! Of course, if this were my DM, I'd get one sentence into the explanation; he'd shout "NO!" the first time I picked up a sourcebook. The last session I went to, the DM listed off the sourcebooks, and when he was done, pointed at me and said "But you can only use core rulebooks!" He was only half joking.

What about monster manuals? There's no real player cheese in those.

[Argetlam15]

Mjollnir is a transcription or something but contrary to what people seem to believe, english actually transcripted it back to it's roots, seeing as its norse and original name is Mjolnir, and within the languages Sami, Norwegian, English, German, Swedish, Danish and Islandic, they write it Mjølner, Mjolne, Mjölnir, Mjöllnir, Mjolnir, Mjölnar or Mjǫllnir. This suggests that there are many different pronounciations of the name, and that modern languages have just transcripted it into their own language.

According to wikipedia, it's pronounced /ˈmjɔːlnɪr/ or /ˈmjɔːlnər/, though I'm not completely sure how I would pronounce it. Seeing as it's original name is Mjolnir, which may be pronounced like the first phonetic spelling, except that the "o" may be pronounced either like the "u" in hurt, like the "o" in "open" or like "awe" (to be honest, I'm not sure about the pronounciation of "awe", but I mean the first one if you actually pronounce something after the first sound).

Some of the non-norse languages have changed the o to an ø or ö, which both are pronounced like the u in "hurt", but the norse spelling doesn't specify how to pronounce it, so I'm guessing it's only a imprecise transelation. The i in the end is often substituted with an "a" or "e" instead, which you'd pronounce like the "a" in "arrr" or the "e" in "Bed". These (along with the manypronounced "o")

I think are because norse wasn't a written language, and thus you'd have many ways of pronouncing the same word, seeing as not everyone agreed on how they'd pronounce it. A co-reason for this could also be because what prose there exists from this time was only written down a couple of hundred years later, and at the time they were actually composed, they were composed as songs and poems (kvad), where they'd write rhymes to make them easier to remember (they had to remember every single one of them, seeing as they didn't know how to write and read), and when you try to make rhymes, it's pretty convenient that a word can have several different pronounciations.


[halfwayrant about norwegian language-politics from the 1800-hundreds]
(Except for Mjolne, which is sortof an odd one out that is norwegian, and I'm guessing it's a variation based on the new-norwegian language, and thus is weird just because the ones who "made" this language tried to make the words fit with how they understood the norwegian language, and not just use the words the way they've always been, if that makes sense) [/endrant]

[tyckspoon]

What about monster manuals? There's no real player cheese in those.

Unless you happen to be a Druid. Or use Summon spells. Or Polymorph.. some of the worst cheese in D&D happens when players are allowed access to the monsters.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unless you happen to be a Druid. Or use Summon spells. Or Polymorph.. some of the worst cheese in D&D happens when players are allowed access to the monsters.Though that has more to do with WotC making broken monsters than the PCs breaking the game. Things like Effreeti wish cheese, Fleshrakers, and Pun-Pun all depend on the fact that WotC puts things in the game with no thought as to how those things will influence the world if used intelligently.

[Amiel]

Honestly, I would stat Io as even more powerful than what you have here. Although this is predicated upon your decision of whether he is still within the extent of greater deity limits or if he is a full blown overgod.
The stated Divine Rank 25 suggests overdeityhood, though you may want to bump the HD and ability scores up a bit. Take a look at the epic dragons for comparison or use them as a baseline.

I honestly don't know why Io is NE though :smallconfused:


As for why stat deities? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111306):smallbiggrin:

[Tequila Sunrise]

Thank you! Of course, if this were my DM, I'd get one sentence into the explanation; he'd shout "NO!" the first time I picked up a sourcebook. The last session I went to, the DM listed off the sourcebooks, and when he was done, pointed at me and said "But you can only use core rulebooks!" He was only half joking.
Doesn't he know that half the game's broken options come from the PHB? :smallwink: Restriction to core is an overbearing way to curb creative players, IMO. My preferred way is to let players use whatever sources they want, and retroactively modify/ban stuff that turns out to be too broken. Or stuff that I just don't like. :smallcool:


Mjollnir is a transcription or something but contrary to what people seem to believe, english actually transcripted it back to it's roots, seeing as its norse and original name is Mjolnir, and within the languages Sami, Norwegian, English, German, Swedish, Danish and Islandic, they write it Mjølner, Mjolne, Mjölnir, Mjöllnir, Mjolnir, Mjölnar or Mjǫllnir. This suggests that there are many different pronounciations of the name, and that modern languages have just transcripted it into their own language.
That's interesting, though I'm not as concerned with vowels as I am with consonants, because vowels are very flexible anyway. Even within New York state, the same vowel might be pronounced 4 - 6 different ways.


(to be honest, I'm not sure about the pronounciation of "awe", but I mean the first one if you actually pronounce something after the first sound).
'Awe' rhymes with 'law.' (Don't ask me why either word is spelled that way; there's no good reason.) English doesn't have a letter for that vowel sound, though I think of it as AU.


Honestly, I would stat Io as even more powerful than what you have here.
A gamer after my own heart!

Seriously though, I could stat him at a zillion HD, but what the heck would the DM populate the rest of Adamant Mountain with? There's not much monster support after CR 20, let alone 40 or 4 million.


I honestly don't know why Io is NE though.
*shrug* Why kill an overdeity who just doesn't care? Although...Io wouldn't be smite-able if he were neutral!

[pffh]

Mjollnir -- I have no clue how to pronounce that. If anyone does, be a friend, aye?

Emphasize the M and the O. The word pronounced more like Mjolnir. Jol is pronounced like yol, nir as near. So Myolnear is as close as I can write it down.

It would be so much easier for me to just record it and put it on youtube.

[rockdeworld]

Well, as someone pointed out in another thread, Io could use Alter Reality to make himself immune to dying, and cause anyone who sees him to die immediately, and only someone with >= his number of divine ranks could actually kill him. Put exactly 25 divine mushrooms in the mountain, with the last one past the point of no return (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PointOfNoReturn).

[Thelas]

And of course, if the players decide to be "fair" and split the mushrooms..

No Io-kill for you!