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Grifthin
2009-12-05, 12:59 AM
Hey all - we are going to be allowing psionics in our dnd group for the first time. I'm going to be the test monkey and thus have decided to play a soul knife. The string of modules will take us from level 1 - 20. Books allowed are Dmg classes, Complete Adventurer, Complete warrior and Expanded psionics and PHB 1 & 2.

What are good skills for a Soulknife ? What are good feats. So far I don't know if we have a cleric, so I was thinking that the rapid healing feat (regain double hit points from resting, no need to rest - rapid metabolism ?) and something like weapon finesse/power attack. My character ended up with 16 str and 18 dex so from a AC/Attack point of view I'm not badly off. All the rest of my stats ended up between 12-14.

Also - what are good +1 abilities for the mindblade itself. Thanks in advance.

Anonanimal
2009-12-05, 01:01 AM
The Soulknife is one of the worst classes in the game, and can't stand up to the fighter. All of its class abilities center around a subpar magical weapon that can't be disarmed and you don't have to pay for. That's pretty much it.

I would suggest going with a Psychic Warrior instead. There's even an ACF that gives the Psychic Warrior a mindblade.

EDIT: The ACF can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a).

deuxhero
2009-12-05, 01:02 AM
Unarmed Swordsage Soul bound weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Psychic warrior.

SaintRidley
2009-12-05, 01:05 AM
If you're going to go with Soulknife, you might as well use the pile of dreck that is Complete Psionic to go Soulbow.

deuxhero
2009-12-05, 01:06 AM
If you're going to go with Soulknife, you might as well use the pile of dreck that is Complete Psionic to go Soulbow.

Or take advantage of the fact that the only half decent thing from it is free as an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)

BobVosh
2009-12-05, 01:09 AM
If you're going to go with Soulknife, you might as well use the pile of dreck that is Complete Psionic to go Soulbow.

CP isn't completely worthless. There is a lot of nice archery feats...for some reason.

Grifthin
2009-12-05, 01:13 AM
I don't have complete psionic. And I'm already going to play Soul knife - what I want to know is what I can pick to atleast make the class interesting to play. It's premade modules anyways - so I don't think it will go to badly, our party is 1 person to large, so even if my character ends up under performing it wont' be a train smash.

Talbot
2009-12-05, 01:16 AM
I'm playing one right now. I highly recommend taking Flaws for two extra Feats. My current setup has Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Reshape Mindblade (Dwarven Warpike). It makes a wonderful tripping build because, with your disposable weapon, you can drop it to avoid counter-trip attempts with no major problems.

General rule for Soul Knife- pick one thing to specialize in (Soulbow, tripping, Undead Killing, whatever). The trap is trying to force a very limited class to do more than one thing.

Zincorium
2009-12-05, 01:22 AM
Alright, assuming you have no intention of playing anything else (which I have to second the recommendation to do), you should do the following:

1. Attempt to get your DM to approve Soulbow and work towards that.

2. Exotic weapon master (complete warrior) for one level and take the uncanny blow trick. Use it with your bastard sword soulblade to deal x2 strength bonus. Not compatible with 1.

3. Psionic focus is required do do your knife to the soul schtick later on (which can actually take out some foes fairly quickly), so get Psionic Meditation as soon as you qualify.

4. DO NOT take combat expertise- you can't afford the penalties to attack and suffer a significant and irreparable penalty to all trip or disarm attempts. Power attack is a maybe. Again, you can't afford a significant penalty to attack, and the bonus you get isn't going to be very important. Weapon finesse is likewise hard to justify, given that you can't take it until 3rd level and it'll be a +1 to attack unless you get higher boosts to dexterity than strength.

5. Get used to being outclassed. It's trivial for a barbarian to deal out and take more damage than you can- and it's not as though you can do anything he can't.

nekomata2
2009-12-05, 01:24 AM
If you have access to it, consider the 3.0 Soulknife PrC....its soooo much better.

On a side note, the Soulknife is hardly a good class to show off psionics.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-05, 01:29 AM
There's a couple of ACF's in the same link that gave ACF's for the PsiWar

Hidden Talent is a 1st level ACF, and basically nets you a free 1st level Power. Not too bad.

More importantly, you can sacrifice the completely worthless Psionic Strike abilities for Feats, which lets you function fairly well.

Soulbow is also a very strong class which I cannot suggest too strongly.

SaintRidley
2009-12-05, 01:30 AM
CP isn't completely worthless. There is a lot of nice archery feats...for some reason.

I suppose.

My experience with it was poorly thought out and contradictory fluff, unimplemented rules, completely broken (overpowered) rules, completely broken (underpowered) rules, and just a general feel that the people writing the book were trying to sabotage the whole idea of Psionics.


Being a mind flayer illithid squid thingy fan, the heritage feats made me set the book down and consider just never touching it again. Half-mind flayers illithids squid thingies in the Fiend Folio nearly did that until I saw the fluff about them coming from experiments in ceremorphosis that were more successful than most but not as successful as those that actually give rise to real mind flayers illithids squid thingies. The heritage feats.... There is no justification for those.

Tavar
2009-12-05, 01:36 AM
Actually, given the fluff from the lord's of madness, since the mindflayer's are from the future, the heritage feats represent the ancestors of the mindflayers.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-05, 02:07 AM
On a side note, the Soulknife is hardly a good class to show off psionics.

This is, well, pretty true, to be honest. If you want to do a test of the actual psionic power point system, I would recommend following the link deuxhero provided and play a psychic warrior instead. The alternate class feature provides you with the main schtick of a soulknife plus actual powers to use.

Just remember that you can't spend more power points than your manifester level on a given power, and you should be fine. Unless the rest of the group is horridly unoptimized, you shouldn't have any glaring issues.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-05, 02:11 AM
More importantly, you can sacrifice the completely worthless Psionic Strike abilities for Feats, which lets you function fairly well.

Psychic Strike isn't COMPLETELY worthless, if you get Knife to the Soul, you can basically 1shot any Animal, because lol 2 int. Plus assorted low-mental critters, and casters tend to not appreciate losing their casting stat, though a suitably paranoid caster will be proof against this one way or another.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-05, 02:17 AM
Psychic Strike isn't COMPLETELY worthless, if you get Knife to the Soul, you can basically 1shot any Animal, because lol 2 int. Plus assorted low-mental critters, and casters tend to not appreciate losing their casting stat, though a suitably paranoid caster will be proof against this one way or another.

And once you hit about 13th level, when it becomes available, the number of creatures immune to mind-affecting, and thus Knife to the Soul, increases. Soon, it won't work on anything worth working on.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 02:41 AM
If you want to make the most of the Soulknife class, your best bets are:

Soulknife 6/Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) X
(Soulbow's completely free, just print it and use it if you want to focus on thrown Mind Blades.)

Soulknife 6/Warmind X
This may be your best bet for melee. It's certainly one of the easiest. Use the Soulblade 2-handed, supplement your abilities with nifty Warmind Powers and the Power Attack feat.

Soulknife 6/Samurai 1/Kensai X
Seriously. Samurai. It has the skills needed to qualify for Kensai and gives a bit of versatility to your build if you ever need to fight one-handed (not necessarily a common occurance, but every fighter occasionally finds himself dangling one-handed from a balcony, slashing desperately at the grasping skeleton hordes below). Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) could be a better option, depending on your Charisma.

Soulknife 6/Psychic Warrior X
Like Warmind, but with feats instead of nifty class features. If you're going the Psychic Warrior/Soulknife route, you're probably better off just manifesting the Call Weaponry power with a straight-class PsyWar: you'll have more PP, better Soulknife abilities via powers like Camoflague and Concealing Amprpha and Metamorphosis and a better choice of weapons than Shortsword/Bastard Sword. Still, Psychic Warrior makes everything better.

Soulknife 1/Swordsage X or Soulknife 6/Swordsage X
Start with a Swordsage level for the extra skills, then take either 1 level Swordsage (if you intend to use standard action maneuvers as a source of damage and effects) or 6 levels Soulknife (if you intend to use two-weapon fighting). Either way, this builds upon the Soulknife's skills and armor style while able to ignore some of the deficiencies of the soulknife class (weak damage, weak skill points, lack of supporting class abilities).

The Soulknife is presumably a scout class. Its skill list doesn't really support anything else. So put points in Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently for sneakery. Tumble and Autohypnosis are just generally useful skills and each deserves a few ranks. And at that point you pretty much reach the end of your powers list. So, yeah.

For feats, pretend you're a Fighter, just without a reach weapon, base attack or heavy armor. If you can retrain it at level 4, you'll probably want Psionic Weapon at low levels. The extra couple damage dice are often enough to push a level 1-3 enemy past 0. Later on, the feat's rubbish. Power Attack is a good choice once you can shape your Mind Blade. Robilar's Gambit is always a nifty choice. The Combat Brute, Shock Trooper and Elusive Target tactical feats from Complete Warrior are always worthwhile. If you go into a manifesting class, Extend Power is very useful, as can be Overchannel.

edit:
Books allowed:smallredface:

Grifthin
2009-12-05, 03:00 AM
If your playing a psion with a intelligence of 18. your level is 2. How many poewr points would one have ?

Pluto
2009-12-05, 03:04 AM
If your playing a psion with a intelligence of 18. your level is 2. How many poewr points would one have ?

If you add the level-based PP from the Psion table on EPH p.20 to the PP from the ability table on p. 18, you should get 10 points. Plus any from race or feats.

Grifthin
2009-12-05, 03:11 AM
Why is the soulbow considered such a good fit for the soulknife ? What makes it a good class?

Also At level 10 a soulknife's weapon is treated as a +2 weapon. Does this mean that he has a +2 weapon with 2 special abilites (+1 each) or a single +2 Ability. OR does it just stay a regular weapon but with 2 ablities.

So in summary I want to know is it a +2 weapon or a mundane weapon with 2 special abilities. or both.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 03:40 AM
Why is the soulbow considered such a good fit for the soulknife ? What makes it a good class.
It's not such a good class, but unlike a Soulknife, it actually has class abilities that support its role. Between its Bonus feats, the way it replaces Strength as a damage source with a more useful stat, its access to useful enhancements like Bane and its the unique class features (Phase Arrow, Close Combat Shot), the Soulbow is designed to bring some punch to a fight.

Soulknife, on the other hand, is very much like a Bard without the spells or the songs. Weaker, even, in that its skill list is lacking and its weapon selection is more constrained.

Soulknife's class abilities that focus on melee combat preclude and are less efficient than full attacks. Charging and releasing a Psychic Strike produces less damage than a full attack. The Whirlwind Attack analogue spreads damage out between many targets. In D&D 3.5, damage doesn't matter unless it drops a target below 0 HP. That means spreading damage around is meaningless: even after several rounds of whirlwind attacks, the monsters can still eat your face and the villains are still alive to turn you into a newt.

The Ranged combat mode of the Mind Blade, implied by the Throw Mind Blade and Free Shaping class features, is terrible. A Soulknife can throw a Mindblade a short distance once per round, total. Maybe twice. That isn't how ranged combat works. To deal significant damage, get Rapid Shot and Haste, stand far out of reach and full attack with as many d20 rolls as you can manage.

The Soulknife's signature class ability is terribly lackluster. The Mind Blade essentially turns into a +5 weapon by level 20 (enhancement bonuses don't count; the friendly party mage's Greater Magic Weapon provides those for free). The actual effects of the weapon are miniscule, definitely lacking as a defining class feature.

edit:

Also At level 10 a soulknife's weapon is treated as a +2 weapon. Does this mean that he has a +2 weapon with 2 special abilites (+1 each) or a single +2 Ability. OR does it just stay a regular weapon but with 2 ablities.

So in summary I want to know is it a +2 weapon or a mundane weapon with 2 special abilities. or both.
The Soulknife has two abilities that you should track seperately.

One is "+# Mindblade," advancing at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. This is the enhancement bonus of the Mindblade.

The other is "Mindblade Enhancement +#." This is the non-numeric effect of the Mindblade. It advances at levels 6, 10, 14 and 18. It can be used for effects like Psychokinetic, Sundering and Viscious.

So at level 10, you have the +2 Mindblade and Mindblade +2 enhancement abilities. They are seperate, but they mean that your Mindblade could work like a +2 Wounding Bastard Sword or two +1 Lucky Psychokinetic shortswords or whatever.

Grifthin
2009-12-05, 04:41 AM
Thanks for the explanation.

FMArthur
2009-12-05, 05:01 AM
I really think you should read the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) alternate class feature for Psychic Warriors. It literally replaces the entire Soulknife class within a more interesting warrior class, retaining any and all flavor you think Soulknife might offer. You've got to understand: "has a weapon" is not a real class feature. You wind up worse off than an NPC Warrior because (surprise) he also has a weapon, and better BAB to use it with.

I get the impression that you're not considering Soulbound Weapon psychic warrior as an option because it's not what you wanted to play, which is a soulknife. This is true in name only. It really does just beat up the Soulknife and take all of its things, and is not any stronger than regular Psychic Warrior for it.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-05, 05:29 AM
there are feats out there that mitigate the problems with the class, but really, it's like putting a bunch of bandaids on a missing limb. About the only readily accessible way, by RAW, you can really get enough feats to put it together properly is to abandon soulknife as early as possible and use psychic warrior. Outside of raw, talk to your DM. bring the flaws of the class to light, see if he won't tack on some of those feats as bonus feats for the class. (among other quick fixes.)

Mind Cleave, Mind empowerment, Swift Mind strike.

From the sound of it, it seems your stuck with the class for now. See if he'll allow Practiced Mindblade from one of the Dragon mag issues (forget which) It acts just like the practiced caster/manifester feats from other sources. (boosts effective mindblade enhancement progression by +4, capped by your hit dice) if so, dump soulknife no later than 6th level and switch to psychic warrior. You've got a few feats to spare, and practiced mindblade and manifester feats can give you (afb, so this may be off) something like 17th or 18th level mindblade and manifesting abilities. Your PP will have a good chunk removed, but math-wise, it's roughly the same number of points you'd have used to enhance a weapon with psywar powers over the course of a normal adventuring day, so you're not really losing anything, just prepaying for it.

AslanCross
2009-12-05, 06:30 AM
An alternative that improves the Soulknife is found in Races of Eberron. The Kalashtar has racial substitute levels for Soulknife and also has a good PrC: The Atavist. Races of Eberron was designed for the adaptation of the Eberron races in other settings, so it shouldn't be such a stretch for DMs.

EDIT: However, I do agree that Soulknife isn't a good testbed class for introducing psionics. Psion or Psychic Warrior gives you a better feel for the system, as the Soulknife is...not really psionic. It's the only class of the four that doesn't actually manifest. Kinda sad.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-05, 09:55 AM
Actually, given the fluff from the lord's of madness, since the mindflayer's are from the future, the heritage feats represent the ancestors of the mindflayers.

Glad that is catching on. :smallbiggrin:
I approve of this reasoning.

mohdri
2009-12-05, 03:20 PM
Thank you all (especially the OP) for this thread. I was going to start my own thread about Soulknives, but now I don't need to. It also makes me feel justified in the houseruled/homebrew changes I made for my game's Soulknife.

Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic Warriors is nice, though it does have a few drawbacks that a Soulknife's Mindblade does not have.

Mongoose87
2009-12-05, 03:23 PM
Thank you all (especially the OP) for this thread. I was going to start my own thread about Soulknives, but now I don't need to. It also makes me feel justified in the houseruled/homebrew changes I made for my game's Soulknife.

Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic Warriors is nice, though it does have a few drawbacks that a Soulknife's Mindblade does not have.

But, the fact that it's not the only class feature kinda makes up for that.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-05, 03:30 PM
Thank you all (especially the OP) for this thread. I was going to start my own thread about Soulknives, but now I don't need to. It also makes me feel justified in the houseruled/homebrew changes I made for my game's Soulknife.

Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic Warriors is nice, though it does have a few drawbacks that a Soulknife's Mindblade does not have.

If "not being able to use it in a null psionics/antimagic field is the drawback, that's hardly a drawback outside of what a normal psychic warrior suffers, or most all classes, really.

On a side note, be sure your DM is using the "Psionics is the same" default rule, otherwise there may be a few unexpected issues.

tyckspoon
2009-12-05, 03:35 PM
But, the fact that it's not the only class feature kinda makes up for that.

It also has at least one major advantage over the standard Mindblade- when you augment it with weapon enhancements, you're not restricted to the Soulknive's limited list for choices. If you want to make your Soulbound Weapon Holy or Bane (whatever you just ran into), you can do that.

SaintRidley
2009-12-05, 03:55 PM
Actually, given the fluff from the lord's of madness, since the mindflayer's are from the future, the heritage feats represent the ancestors of the mindflayers.

I, personally, like combining that fluff with the Illithiad fluff that states that they came from Outside.

Personally, I think the heritage feats representing the early stages of evolution into what we see as a less than satisfactory considering the evidence of the Sargonne Prophecies showing that they arrived in our world (and time) from Outside.

If the heritage feats should be used at all, I would use them for humans who have been trapped in the Far Realm as a way of representing the corruption that is occurring, by resulting in automatic acquisition of the Flayerspawn Psychic PrC regardless of meeting prerequisites. On the + Manifester levels they get Psion (Telepath) manifesting (2 levels at 2nd and 7th of the PrC) and becoming a full flayer at level 10.


Actually, that doesn't sound like half bad an idea for a reworking of the class.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-05, 04:18 PM
It also has at least one major advantage over the standard Mindblade- when you augment it with weapon enhancements, you're not restricted to the Soulknive's limited list for choices. If you want to make your Soulbound Weapon Holy or Bane (whatever you just ran into), you can do that.

and you can change it even mid encounter if that's necessary. whereas the mindblade can only be reset after several hours of retooling it, I think.


I've houseruled that soulknives have the standard enhancement list as a default, but can learn others at double the cost i money, and XP that it would take to enchant an existing +1 weapon with that property. (reasoning for double is that the soulknife isn't creating a weapon with a fixed property, but can mix and match from available properties to create new combinations)

The Glyphstone
2009-12-05, 04:20 PM
Soulknives are lackluster, for one, because their primary class feature is to have slightly more WBL than other melee classes. Money is also a class feature for the Aristocrat, an NPC class.

They're also a melee class with 3/4 BAB and no significant means of bonus damage. And a 'psionic' class without any actual psionic powers.

mohdri
2009-12-05, 04:36 PM
It also has at least one major advantage over the standard Mindblade- when you augment it with weapon enhancements, you're not restricted to the Soulknive's limited list for choices. If you want to make your Soulbound Weapon Holy or Bane (whatever you just ran into), you can do that.


They're also a melee class with 3/4 BAB and no significant means of bonus damage.

Which is some of the issues I address in my houserules on the class. The Soulknife enchancement list looks closer to Soulbow, with a few others. Full BAB. ACF Hidden Talant at first level. Remove "free action once per round" from free draw, add bonus feats, reduce the time (drasticly) it takes to change Mindblade properties, and a few other things.


If "not being able to use it in a null psionics/antimagic field is the drawback, that's hardly a drawback outside of what a normal psychic warrior suffers, or most all classes, really.

It's also subject to dispels, requires the expenditure PP, has a duration, and subject to a time limit (2 rounds) if disarmed, and requires you to take a sub-par feat for your first level bonus feat (not that that is any different from Soulknife at first level). I'm really not trying to argue that it's not a great ACF for an already good to great class, but it does have weaknesses over Mindblade.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-05, 06:08 PM
Which is some of the issues I address in my houserules on the class. The Soulknife enchancement list looks closer to Soulbow, with a few others. Full BAB. ACF Hidden Talant at first level. Remove "free action once per round" from free draw, add bonus feats, reduce the time (drasticly) it takes to change Mindblade properties, and a few other things.

No one's arguing that Soulknife can be improved with houserules/rewrites...indeed, it desperately needs them. But if the OP's group has just let psionics go for a test-run, it's quite unlikely that they'll allow 3rd party houserules for that testing.


[quote]
It's also subject to dispels, requires the expenditure PP, has a duration, and subject to a time limit (2 rounds) if disarmed, and requires you to take a sub-par feat for your first level bonus feat (not that that is any different from Soulknife at first level). I'm really not trying to argue that it's not a great ACF for an already good to great class, but it does have weaknesses over Mindblade.

It's got weaknesses, but the overall strength of PsyWar with Soulbound Weapon compared to Soulknife is so vast that it shouldn't really be much of a contest.

Grifthin
2009-12-05, 06:21 PM
If one had imbued his weapon with Psychic Strike and used Bladewind. Would the Psychic strike trigger against every opponent or only one ?

Pluto
2009-12-05, 06:43 PM
If one had imbued his weapon with Psychic Strike and used Bladewind. Would the Psychic strike trigger against every opponent or only one ?

Bladewind involves making seperate attacks against each target.
Psychic Strike can be discharged to increase the damage of a single attack.
So it would only affect one of the Bladewind attacks.

mohdri
2009-12-05, 06:55 PM
But if the OP's group has just let psionics go for a test-run, it's quite unlikely that they'll allow 3rd party houserules for that testing.
True


It's got weaknesses, but the overall strength of PsyWar with Soulbound Weapon compared to Soulknife is so vast that it shouldn't really be much of a contest.

I do agree with this, unfortunatly. I just don't think Soulbound Weapon is as good as some other people might. I think it still goes to a comparison of the base classes, which PsyWar IS much better over all.


If one had imbued his weapon with Psychic Strike and used Bladewind. Would the Psychic strike trigger against every opponent or only one ?


Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

It depends on how you interpret this from the description. Is "regular" how the weapon is at the time of invoking Bladewind (assuming Psychic Strike has been readied), or is "regular" simply just the base weapon, with enchnacement bonus and weapon properties only? Personally I don't think it would break things to let Psychic Stike apply to each target of Bladewind, but that is my opinion. By RAW, it would apply to one target, though.


This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Bolded text mine.

Half-ninja'ed

nekomata2
2009-12-05, 07:02 PM
I'm pretty sure Psychic Strike would still only be one target, although I could see arguments for any of three interpretations:
1) Blade is numerous "identical" blades, hence the strike is in each,
2) the blade splits, and since a psychic strike is "destructive psychic energy" in the blade, it doesn' fragment in the blades, and one blade has it, or
3) the blade fragments, so each fragment has a fragment of the strike, allowing you to divide up the strike dice...

Even the most powerful interpretation would hardly come close to breaking the Soulknife...

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-05, 10:43 PM
I only have two things to add to this thread.

1) The soulknife's mind-blade isn't as strong as a similar level character's purchased weapon, but at 20th level a +9 weapon (which the mind-blade would be equivalent to) represents more than 20% of a character's wealth. I'd hardly call that "slightly more wealth"

2) Illithid heritage isn't that hard to imagine. Nothing in the LoM section on mind-flayer anatomy and reproduction says that an illithid's host body loses its..... gender specific body parts. Illithids are consummate experimenters. I think you see where I'm heading here. Yes its squicky as hell, but it's technically possible.

Tavar
2009-12-05, 10:46 PM
Actually, yes, I believe that it does mention loosing the family jewels.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 10:50 PM
1) The soulknife's mind-blade isn't as strong as a similar level character's purchased weapon, but at 20th level a +9 weapon (which the mind-blade would be equivalent to) represents more than 20% of a character's wealth. I'd hardly call that "slightly more wealth"
It's +5. Enhancement bonuses don't count.

Also, the enhancements are drawn from a very limited list of bonuses. Even though they aren't bad choices, they are going to be less useful than ones custom-tailored to a character's role and abilities drawn a longer list.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-05, 11:08 PM
It's +5. Enhancement bonuses don't count.

Also, the enhancements are drawn from a very limited list of bonuses. Even though they aren't bad choices, they are going to be less useful than ones custom-tailored to a character's role and abilities drawn a longer list.

How is it that the enhancement bonuses don't count?

SparkMandriller
2009-12-05, 11:18 PM
Greater Magic Weapon.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 11:25 PM
How is it that the enhancement bonuses don't count?

A 3rd level Pearl of Power costs 9k.

Draxar
2009-12-05, 11:26 PM
I will add my voice to the "It's not not too bad with houserules".

I'm playing a Soulknife who gets full BAB, and a wider choice of enhancement powers for the weapon – essentially whatever I can persuade the ST of, which consists of 'yes bane, acid, force, no to metaline'

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-05, 11:45 PM
A 3rd level Pearl of Power costs 9k.

and if the party's caster wants to spend that 9k on something else? If the party simply doesn't have a caster with GMW? Nevermind the vulnerability to dispeling. It just doesn't seem wise to me to count on getting that spell cast on your weapon every day.

nekomata2
2009-12-05, 11:54 PM
I agree with a few points here, but first off, if the fighter intends to get GMWed every day, he better shell out the 9k for the Pearl, its only for his benefit, its its cheaper than 120k or so in his weapon. 2nd, other effects tend to be better than a straight enhancement anyway, I'd rather have a +1 flaming holy bane sword than a +4 sword. 3rd, even if it gets dispelled, its likely not what making the difference in the fighter hitting or missing, and all that money he didn't spend on his sword is more fun toys for him.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-06, 12:08 AM
I guess I just prefer the absolute reliability of a simple +4, just because a +1 Flaming Holy Bane of X (remember that bane requires that you pick a type, and perhaps subtype) may do more damage, doesn't mean it will be fully applicable to any given enemy, and besides, that extra +3 can be converted to other effects by combat expertise, power attack, etc.... Mind you I'm not talking about the soulknife and his mind-blade in this particular post.

Pluto
2009-12-06, 12:48 AM
and if the party's caster wants to spend that 9k on something else? If the party simply doesn't have a caster with GMW? Nevermind the vulnerability to dispeling. It just doesn't seem wise to me to count on getting that spell cast on your weapon every day.
The Fighter buys the Pearl, of course.

Most parties will have a Cleric, Wizard, Favored Soul or Sorcerer. Most Clerics will prepare the spell for themselves anyway (16k for the pearl then, but still relatively inexpensive compared to a +5 enhancement bonus).

And the Caster level will tend to be higher for GMW than for an enhancement bonus, making it more difficult to dispel (eg. +3 enhancement=CL 9, +3 GMW=CL 12-15).

Also, it isn't 3.0. If GMW is dispelled, you just lose 12 damage per swing. It's not good, but it's far from the worst thing that can happen to a fighter.


I guess I just prefer the absolute reliability of a simple +4, just because a +1 Flaming Holy Bane of X (remember that bane requires that you pick a type, and perhaps subtype) may do more damage, doesn't mean it will be fully applicable to any given enemy, and besides, that extra +3 can be converted to other effects by combat expertise, power attack, etc....
The enhancement bonus is definitely a useful enhancement (damn, this jargon is redundant). It's just much cheaper to get via Pearl of Power/GMW than it is from buying the actual bonus.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-06, 01:04 AM
The Fighter buys the Pearl, of course.

Most parties will have a Cleric, Wizard, Favored Soul or Sorcerer. Most Clerics will prepare the spell for themselves anyway (16k for the pearl then, but still relatively inexpensive compared to a +5 enhancement bonus).

And the Caster level will tend to be higher for GMW than for an enhancement bonus, making it more difficult to dispel (eg. +3 enhancement=CL 9, +3 GMW=CL 12-15).

Also, it isn't 3.0. If GMW is dispelled, you just lose 12 damage per swing. It's not good, but it's far from the worst thing that can happen to a fighter.


The enhancement bonus is definitely a useful enhancement (damn, this jargon is redundant). It's just much cheaper to get via Pearl of Power/GMW than it is from buying the actual bonus.

I can understand a Cleric or Favored Soul picking up GMW, but why would a wizard prepare it except to cast on someone else? Maybe if he's a gish. Same goes for sorcerer plus he's burning a spell known on it. I don't really get the reference to 3.0 v 3.5? In anycase I was refering to the dispelling completely nulling the GMW vs temporarily suppressing the permanent enhancement bonus.

olentu
2009-12-06, 02:41 AM
I can understand a Cleric or Favored Soul picking up GMW, but why would a wizard prepare it except to cast on someone else? Maybe if he's a gish. Same goes for sorcerer plus he's burning a spell known on it. I don't really get the reference to 3.0 v 3.5? In anycase I was refering to the dispelling completely nulling the GMW vs temporarily suppressing the permanent enhancement bonus.

In 3.0 there was damage reduction could be overcome by weapons with specific enhancement bonuses. For example something might have DR 50/+4.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 02:50 AM
I can understand a Cleric or Favored Soul picking up GMW, but why would a wizard prepare it except to cast on someone else?

But thats exactly the point. Casting GMW is probably a better overall contribution to your party in combat than Fireball. But if you have multiple people in the party who want/expect buffs, they should supply a way for you to do it such that it doesn't negatively affect you. Besides, had you not cast GMW and didn't need it, maybe you have a way to swap it or are using it for a reserve feat or something (I have no idea if it qualifies for a reserve feat...)

olentu
2009-12-06, 03:02 AM
When it came up it was generally a situation sort of like this or the wizard just cast it out of the goodness of his heart. The wizard would learn GMW and then prepare 1 casting of GMW and X other 3rd level spells one of which the wizard would want to cast more than once in a day but generally not more then once in a combat. The GMW recipient would then get the pearl of power and the wizard would use it on the spell that is to be cast multiple times. Any additional people wanting a cast of GMW bought a pearl of power that would be used to recover GMW.

Grifthin
2009-12-06, 06:32 AM
I've been reading through all the posts and I would like to thank everyone who replied to my sometimes dense questions. Here's what I'm planning on doing to try and make the soulknife slightly workable at level 20 eventually:

DM says no hotfixes to the character not from Wotc.
He has agreed to allow flaws though.
I now know we have a diviner in the party.
I'm playing a Xeph (speed boost and Dex bonus)

So using 2 flaws (inattentive) and (vulnerable) that gives me -4 to spot and listen and -1 to AC. Since AC doesn't scale well I don't think it should be a train smash. Spot and listen are class skills so I should still have decent modifiers.

Feats Picked + Class Feats

Power attack (Goes well with deep impact)

Weapon focus and greater weapon Focus Mind blade

Focused Mindstrike (for the extra die damage and to be able to deal 6 points of ability score damage at level 20)

Swift Mindstrike (Imbue mindstrike as swift action - for mobility)

Rapid metabolism (still no word on a healer in the party)

Psionic Meditation (become psionically focussed as a move action not full)

Psionic weapon (extra 2d6 dice on damage)

Greater Psionic Weapon (extra 4d6 damage)

Deep impact (Hits against Touch ac, great with power attack and lackluster attack bonus.)

Speed of thought (increase speed by 10ft when psionically focussed)

Up the walls (can run on walls/ceiling when psionically focussed)

Wild Talent (Gives psionic ability and 2 power points)

Basic idea to let the diviner tell us what we are up against. I charge up mindblade specifically for the encounter. I can stop by the entrance to a room, focus psionically then use Xeph speedboost for the 70ft per round movement. Run up the walls/ceiling using tumble to get to the most dangerous target in the room and then attempt to hit it with 2 handed bastard sword + Power attack + 4d6 damage + 6d8 + weapon enhancements. Hopefully that's enough to severly hurt/kill whatever I'm going for. Against the touch AC I should atleast have a better chance to hit.

What do you guys think ? I will be playing the character from 1-20.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 09:45 AM
I've been reading through all the posts and I would like to thank everyone who replied to my sometimes dense questions. Here's what I'm planning on doing to try and make the soulknife slightly workable at level 20 eventually:

DM says no hotfixes to the character not from Wotc.
He has agreed to allow flaws though.
I now know we have a diviner in the party.
I'm playing a Xeph (speed boost and Dex bonus)

So using 2 flaws (inattentive) and (vulnerable) that gives me -4 to spot and listen and -1 to AC. Since AC doesn't scale well I don't think it should be a train smash. Spot and listen are class skills so I should still have decent modifiers.The suggestion is still, I'm afraid, psychic warrior. He'll do what you want considerably better, and he gets the mind blade as well (just reflavor it). You want the extra wealth? Take an Item Familiar or an Ancestral Weapon, along with the psychic warrior ACF mentioned earlier. Now you can have 2 weapons for free and one that you can get for half off (by dumping magic items your party has no use for in direct exchange for a weapon, rather than selling them for half and then buying enhancements.

If you want yet another one, use the psychic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) or kensai.

Also, xephs have a Strength penalty and Small size (leading to a smaller damage die - not that this really matters except at the earliest levels). Not good for accuracy or damage either one.

But seriously; soulknives are just that bad. They'd be worse than monks if they didn't auto-qualify for psionic feats.


Weapon focus and greater weapon Focus Mind bladeSoulknives already get Weapon Focus (Mind Blade). Okay picks for a psywar though, if you can find a way to get things like Superior Weapon Specialization (which you probably can't; you can do better for accuracy and damage, though).


Focused Mindstrike (for the extra die damage and to be able to deal 6 points of ability score damage at level 20)

Swift Mindstrike (Imbue mindstrike as swift action - for mobility)

Rapid metabolism (still no word on a healer in the party)

Psionic Meditation (become psionically focussed as a move action not full)

Psionic weapon (extra 2d6 dice on damage)

Greater Psionic Weapon (extra 4d6 damage)

Deep impact (Hits against Touch ac, great with power attack and lackluster attack bonus.)

Speed of thought (increase speed by 10ft when psionically focussed)

Up the walls (can run on walls/ceiling when psionically focussed)Reasonable choices if you don't mind the rest of what you're doing. They work.


Wild Talent (Gives psionic ability and 2 power points)Soulknives already get this, and multiple choices don't stack. You could get Psionic Talent (gives you +2 pp), though your character has absolutely no use for them, so I'm not sure at all why you'd want this feat.


Basic idea to let the diviner tell us what we are up against. I charge up mindblade specifically for the encounter. I can stop by the entrance to a room, focus psionically then use Xeph speedboost for the 70ft per round movement. Run up the walls/ceiling using tumble to get to the most dangerous target in the room and then attempt to hit it with 2 handed bastard sword + Power attack + 4d6 damage + 6d8 + weapon enhancements. Hopefully that's enough to severly hurt/kill whatever I'm going for. Against the touch AC I should atleast have a better chance to hit.

What do you guys think ? I will be playing the character from 1-20.A barbarian using THF will be able to do everything better than you, aside from your being just a bit faster. The extra actions spent charging your mind blade (if you can find a way to charge and attack more than 1/round) will more than make up for that though; otherwise, your damage will severely suffer due to not getting psychic strike more than 1/round.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-06, 10:12 AM
There's PId6's Soulknife remake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112172), that he used in a game I was in and was pretty good.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 10:17 AM
There's PId6's Soulknife remake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112172), that he used in a game I was in and was pretty good.He's not allowed to use any fixes.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-06, 10:24 AM
He's not allowed to use any fixes.

Then please ignore my previous post <sits in the corner reserved for people who only skim threads>

Grifthin
2009-12-06, 12:28 PM
yes - I know the psionic warrior looks tastier. I'm just stubborn this way though :) As for the feats, I listed the free ones from the class and the picked ones together as per my post.

So I an other suggestions then ? Xeph arn't small are they ? They about 5.5ft tall ? Short, but not small.

Can you use weapon finesse with a mindblade ? They only weigh 2 pounds after all.

mohdri
2009-12-06, 12:43 PM
Can you use weapon finesse with a mindblade ? They only weigh 2 pounds after all.As long as the form of your Mindblade qualifies for Weapon Finesse, yes.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 12:44 PM
The SRD lists Xeph as Medium. Still, you don't want WIld Talent...luckily, you can use this Soulknife ACF http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a since it is from WoTC. Then you can actually have one power, probably inertial armor....

I don't remember if it came up earlier in the thread, but if you have/can use Eberron books, Kalashtar are nice.

FMArthur
2009-12-06, 02:02 PM
You're just getting attached to a word. The Soulbound Weapon variant Psychic Warrior really is the Soulknife, with things to do in combat added on. I can tell you right now that you're going to be underwhelmed with the damage you deal on your single prepared strike, and even more underwhelmed with how much mobility you need to sacrifice to use Psychic Strike starting your second turn in combat.

Quite frankly, if one of your party members took Leadership and got a cohort barbarian several levels below you, it would completely supersede your role in the party. :smallfrown:

Grifthin
2009-12-06, 02:33 PM
Hence me picking up the Feat that allows the Swift action weapon charging. Look I'm not saying the character will be absolutely awesome, but the speed combined with being able to create weapons at will later will be useful. Our dm is fond of monsters/traps/enemies that deprive us of weapons. Also - we tend to adventure for many many sessions out of a town. Hence being able to have a weapon grow over several levels is useful.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-06, 04:32 PM
Soulbound Weapon only lasts for minutes each casting and takes a big hunk out of your psychic warrior's extremely limited power points/day allotment to properly augment. That's a point in Soulknife's favor. Still not enough to redeem the class of course, but it's something worth considering.

One place where Soulknife works pretty well is in gestalt games. All of its abilities are pretty passive, and its one active thing is a move action. Put that on the other side of a Crusader or Warblade gestalt and you're doing pretty good. d10/12 HD, full BAB, max fort/ref/will saves, maneuvers, and a free weapon. You're usually going to be making standard action strikes, so using a move action to add a few more dice of damage to that costs you essentially nothing. You could do a lot worse.

...You could still do better though. If your DM is open to exotic sources, Incarnate can do all that and more.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-06, 04:54 PM
You know playing a Soulknife does have one long term advantage. Perhaps your DM will come to the conclusion that all Psionic classes are as low powered and allow them in all future games. :smallsmile:

Grifthin
2009-12-06, 11:13 PM
hehehe - sneaky but true.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 11:18 PM
The SRD lists Xeph as Medium.:smalleek: :smallredface:

Man, what a mistake to make.

I do believe I mixed up xephs with dromites.

Okay, so the base damage is Medium. But still, that -2 to Str is gonna hurt.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-06, 11:40 PM
You know playing a Soulknife does have one long term advantage. Perhaps your DM will come to the conclusion that all Psionic classes are as low powered and allow them in all future games. :smallsmile:

This is a very good point. Full Soulknife ahead!

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 11:44 PM
This is a very good point. Full Soulknife ahead!Unless he decides to ban psionics for being useless and weak.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-06, 11:51 PM
That would be ironic now, wouldn't it?

nekomata2
2009-12-07, 12:15 AM
Unless he decides to ban psionics for being useless and weak.

Still useful....he'd have to ban monk and CW samurai, thus saving his world from them.

Edit: I want to see a series of arena matches with these classes...

Lamech
2009-12-07, 12:41 AM
Hmm... so reading the soulknife I see two ways we can read the knife to the soul damage. It A) causes the psychic strike damage to be ablity damage. Not useful. B) It causes the psychic strike damage to be eliminated in exchange for knife to the soul damage. Which says nothing about "creatures immune to mind affecting ablities" being immune too. So all that stuff become fair game.

Also the bladewind almost certainly does psychic strike to everyone, as all the blades are exactly the same and there are multiple copies of it. I mean maybe the blade becomes something else, but then why don't we assume it auto hits and auto kills everything the soul knife doesn't like? So each and every blade will do psychic strike damage to the next person that it hits. Now if at all possible somehow make the mind blade spell storing, stick a spell in it and go to town with bladewind on the ground. Or try targeting each and every creature in a swarm.

In fact Kensai gets you spell storing. Yeah, I'm going to say just do that. Sancutaried enervations anyone? Even if your just targeting ten animals from a bag of tricks thats 10d4 neg levels, a.k.a GG. Scorching rays work too.

Any reason why that won't work? (No DM fiat doesn't count.)

olentu
2009-12-07, 01:41 AM
Hmm... so reading the soulknife I see two ways we can read the knife to the soul damage. It A) causes the psychic strike damage to be ablity damage. Not useful. B) It causes the psychic strike damage to be eliminated in exchange for knife to the soul damage. Which says nothing about "creatures immune to mind affecting ablities" being immune too. So all that stuff become fair game.

Also the bladewind almost certainly does psychic strike to everyone, as all the blades are exactly the same and there are multiple copies of it. I mean maybe the blade becomes something else, but then why don't we assume it auto hits and auto kills everything the soul knife doesn't like? So each and every blade will do psychic strike damage to the next person that it hits. Now if at all possible somehow make the mind blade spell storing, stick a spell in it and go to town with bladewind on the ground. Or try targeting each and every creature in a swarm.

In fact Kensai gets you spell storing. Yeah, I'm going to say just do that. Sancutaried enervations anyone? Even if your just targeting ten animals from a bag of tricks thats 10d4 neg levels, a.k.a GG. Scorching rays work too.

Any reason why that won't work? (No DM fiat doesn't count.)

Unfortunately I would have to say that the bolded part would say that the psychic strike is what is damaging the ability scores.



Knife to the Soul (Su)

Beginning at 13th level, when a soulknife executes a psychic strike, he can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (his choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage he gives up, he deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. A soulknife can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination.

The soulknife decides which ability score his psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when he imbues his mind blade with the psychic strike energy.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-07, 01:47 AM
Quick question, the OP keeps referencing a spell that lets you charge psychic strike as a swift action. What is it and where's it printed please? :smallsmile:

olentu
2009-12-07, 01:53 AM
Quick question, the OP keeps referencing a spell that lets you charge psychic strike as a swift action. What is it and where's it printed please? :smallsmile:

I think it would be Mind Strike, Swift from complete psionic. But then again it has been some time since I looked at feats for a psychic warrior so I might be remembering incorrectly.

Talbot
2009-12-07, 02:17 AM
I think it would be Mind Strike, Swift from complete psionic. But then again it has been some time since I looked at feats for a psychic warrior so I might be remembering incorrectly.


I think that's it, and I also seem to recall it being a once per day thing, and therefore a lot less useful.

Grifthin
2009-12-07, 02:54 AM
I'm working off of hero forge at the moment but it's a feat, not a spell.

EDIT: Bugger - it is only once per day.

Grifthin
2009-12-07, 10:42 AM
Is there any way to duel wield the soulbow ability to produce arrows ?

Lamech
2009-12-07, 03:09 PM
Unfortunately I would have to say that the bolded part would say that the psychic strike is what is damaging the ability scores.

... aw.... Does at least the spell storing + bladewind B.S. still work? (I mean targetting the ground is really dumb, but it might work in some other situations.)

Optimystik
2009-12-07, 03:27 PM
Is there any way to duel wield the soulbow ability to produce arrows ?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. From the excerpt:

"Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow."

It specifically says one hand, so I don't think using a second will do anything.

Muad'dib
2009-12-07, 04:02 PM
I can say from experience that the soulknife isn't good. My soulknife died in our first encounter as the kill in a hit strategy didn't work out too well with multiple opponents. Go with the psychic warrior; it's the same thing only it works.