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View Full Version : ToB and Medium BaB - What Gives?



Mongoose87
2009-12-05, 01:06 AM
I don't get why there are so many Medium BaB classes in the ToB. I understand why for Swordsage - he's the fixed Monk. But, Deepstone Sentinel, Master of Nine and Bloodclaw Master don't particularly blow me away (especially the first two), and they penalize a melee oriented character with sub-standard BaB. Is this an example of martial characters don't get nice things, in the book of nice things for martial characters?

Temotei
2009-12-05, 01:15 AM
You could just house-rule that they get full BAB, if it bothers you.

EDIT: And melee characters get nice things--casters just get nicer things.

Tavar
2009-12-05, 01:20 AM
All of those are also 5 level PrC's: loosing 2 points over the entire span of the class isn't going to be too bad, plus the first 2 seem to give some nice abilities. Not sure about the last one.

Mongoose87
2009-12-05, 01:21 AM
You could just house-rule that they get full BAB, if it bothers you.

Unfortunately, I am not often the DM, so I usually cannot.


All of those are also 5 level PrC's: loosing 2 points over the entire span of the class isn't going to be too bad, plus the first 2 seem to give some nice abilities. Not sure about the last one.

The one that really bugs me is the Master of Nine, though, since you would usually enter it though Swordsage. You get to lose an additional point of BaB by going Swordsage 15/Mo9 5.

Zincorium
2009-12-05, 01:25 AM
Since you don't make full attacks very often as a maneuver user, the iteratives from BAB aren't usually important. Since you aren't expected to power attack for your entire attack bonus, the BAB limit isn't important. And since bonuses to attack or replacement of attacking statistic are very common, you aren't hitting much less than a character with full BAB.

Tome of Battle makes full BAB a bonus, not a requirement.

Eldariel
2009-12-05, 03:30 AM
Unfortunately, I am not often the DM, so I usually cannot.

The one that really bugs me is the Master of Nine, though, since you would usually enter it though Swordsage. You get to lose an additional point of BaB by going Swordsage 15/Mo9 5.

Just use fractional BAB. That's how BAB shoulda worked anyways; using it fixes all the major stupidity related to medium BAB multiclassing. But yeah, Mo9 focuses on maneuvers, not BAB, hence why the medium BAB. It's just an even more versatile Swordsage.

Bloodclaw Master is a bit weird, given how feral and "combatative" the class feels, but it's still good as it removes TWF penalties entirely so you lose 1 BAB for +2 to all attacks (effectively). Deepstone Sentinel...meh.

Grumman
2009-12-05, 03:36 AM
I never even noticed that the Deepstone Sentinel didn't get full B.A.B. As a fixed Dwarven Defender, I just assumed it was still a proper tank class. Guess I'll have to find something else to take for 3 levels...

Vic_Sage
2009-12-05, 04:32 AM
I never even noticed that the Deepstone Sentinel didn't get full B.A.B. As a fixed Dwarven Defender, I just assumed it was still a proper tank class. Guess I'll have to find something else to take for 3 levels...
It's still a useful Tank Class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-05, 04:43 AM
I never even noticed that the Deepstone Sentinel didn't get full B.A.B. As a fixed Dwarven Defender, I just assumed it was still a proper tank class. Guess I'll have to find something else to take for 3 levels...

Since when do Tanks get crippled by a -1 BAB? It's not like their job requires a lot of BAB. All you need to do is get in things way while the rest of the party tears them a new one.Your damage output, while nice, is not as necessary as your battlefield control and your perceived threat to your opponents.

Grumman
2009-12-05, 05:33 AM
Fighters, Knights, Crusaders, Deepwardens and Dwarven Defenders all have full B.A.B. so CoDzillas aside, non-full B.A.B. is generally reserved for skirmishers and other support characters, not tanks.

I never said -1 B.A.B. is enough to cripple a Tank. But it is unusual, and something that defeats the purpose of entering the class for my specific character.

lord_khaine
2009-12-05, 06:15 AM
But the best tanks have medium BAB, just look at classes like Druid, or psychic warrior.

And really, considereing how many ways there is to get bonuses to attack, then i think the advantage of having full BAB is overrated, im currently playing a tank with low BAB, and it works great (psion 4 warblade1).

Saph
2009-12-05, 06:37 AM
Most of those are specialised PrCs, so you're rarely going to see them (I've yet to play in a game with a Deepstone Sentinel, Bloodclaw Master, or Master of Nine). So that only leaves the Swordsage.

And the reason Swordsages get 3/4 BAB is because they're great at just about everything else. Good skills, good saves, good AC, and more maneuvers and more maneuver choice than anyone. If they had full BAB there'd be very little reason to play a Warblade or Crusader. They have to have SOMETHING that they're worse at. Even with their medium BAB, they're arguably the strongest of the ToB base classes as is.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-05, 06:49 AM
Why would anyone NEED BaB in the tome of battle? My experience was that as often as not it wasn't

"I full attacK"

so much as

"I use this nifty manuever that lets me roll attack twice and pick the better result, then I use this one that lets me roll to hit touch AC, then I use this one that lets me make a jump check instead of an attack roll..."

KellKheraptis
2009-12-05, 07:21 AM
Most of those are specialised PrCs, so you're rarely going to see them (I've yet to play in a game with a Deepstone Sentinel, Bloodclaw Master, or Master of Nine). So that only leaves the Swordsage.

And the reason Swordsages get 3/4 BAB is because they're great at just about everything else. Good skills, good saves, good AC, and more maneuvers and more maneuver choice than anyone. If they had full BAB there'd be very little reason to play a Warblade or Crusader. They have to have SOMETHING that they're worse at. Even with their medium BAB, they're arguably the strongest of the ToB base classes as is.

We also won't mention how many kittens would die if Swordsage got full BAB, thus giving the Arcane Swordsage the same. Even if it is one of my pet favorites alongside the other two of the Unholy Trinity :smallcool:

Merk
2009-12-05, 07:55 AM
Arcane Swordsage is an abomination. I just pretend it wasn't printed in the book.

Sliver
2009-12-05, 08:06 AM
Hmmm.. What is so horrible with the arcane swordsage? :smalltongue:

Stegyre
2009-12-05, 08:36 AM
Hmmm.. What is so horrible with the arcane swordsage? :smalltongue:
I believe the problem is that the description was left too vague, with only a tentative restriction to three schools of magic and no guidelines on any spells.

With (a lot of) work, arcane swordsage can work as a nice warlocky-sort of caster. Some spells would work very well as manuevers. But some spells (even within the allowed schools) would be downright broken, and the inadequate RAW (or suggestion) does nothing to exclude them.

ASwSa is a nice idea that needed further development. It is ripe for a homebrew (really, just a spell list).

Emmerask
2009-12-05, 09:16 AM
I don't get why there are so many Medium BaB classes in the ToB. I understand why for Swordsage - he's the fixed Monk. But, Deepstone Sentinel, Master of Nine and Bloodclaw Master don't particularly blow me away (especially the first two), and they penalize a melee oriented character with sub-standard BaB. Is this an example of martial characters don't get nice things, in the book of nice things for martial characters?

In most cases full bab is only needed for power attack anyway (ie the encounters should be balanced in a way medium bab characters donīt have that much trouble hitting the enemy, while full bab classen can use powerattack and still hit without using shocktrooper) and with all the possibilities to increase your to hit or use touch attacks instead it isnīt that much of a problem I think.
I would even go so far as to say that full bab is completly overrated by most (except for the ubercharger characters) with all the buffs you can get it is pretty irrelevant and with manueuvers you rarely use a normal full attack anyways :smallwink:

Emmerask
2009-12-05, 09:48 AM
Why would anyone NEED BaB in the tome of battle? My experience was that as often as not it wasn't

"I full attacK"

so much as

"I use this nifty manuever that lets me roll attack twice and pick the better result, then I use this one that lets me roll to hit touch AC, then I use this one that lets me make a jump check instead of an attack roll..."

hmm did see that this summed up my thoughts pretty good anyway :smallwink:

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-05, 10:14 AM
Having at least almost-full BAB (or 16 BAB, which is almost the same) can still be useful in terms of iteratives.

Between Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still, and the Dancing/Raging Mongoose or Girallon boosts, you could use the iteratives.

Furthermore, you still want to have as high a BAB as you can for purposes of actually hitting. Losing one or two points of BAB isn't bad if you can hit well already or bypass those penalties, but when you cripple your attack bonus enough, the least you want is losing another point of BAB. Going TWF (which is great in a few builds, actually) can be punishing unless you go Bloodclaw, and even then you might get gimped out of the awe-inspiring maneuvers that stand at 8th and 9th level, depending when you take them (you'd be at least at IL 17-18, considering you take full Bloodclaw at mid levels and not at high levels)

In the case of Mo9, it's...bizarre. It's meant to be used by those multiclassing initiates mostly: Swordsage could enter by itself, but it would cripple too much to get the Warblade capstone for at least 10 rounds, plus a plethora of abilities. A Warblade/Swordsage, though, makes insanely good use of these abilities for a minimal loss of BAB, which I think is the right method of entrance (you require the shocking amount of 5 feats, at least 3 of which aren't so good); you sacrifice your BAB for about 8 extra maneuvers, 3 extra readied maneuvers and one or two stances, plus nifty bonuses (AFB, in case I recalled wrong).

The rest are reasonable: the loss on BAB is somehow justified by either a bonus on another side (gaining back the 2 points lost out of TWFing), or because they don't need it that much. In fact, IIRC, the only full BAB PrCs are Eternal Blade and Bloodstorm Blade: the rest are medium.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-12-05, 11:50 AM
Most of those are specialised PrCs, so you're rarely going to see them (I've yet to play in a game with a Deepstone Sentinel, Bloodclaw Master, or Master of Nine). So that only leaves the Swordsage.

And the reason Swordsages get 3/4 BAB is because they're great at just about everything else. Good skills, good saves, good AC, and more maneuvers and more maneuver choice than anyone. If they had full BAB there'd be very little reason to play a Warblade or Crusader. They have to have SOMETHING that they're worse at. Even with their medium BAB, they're arguably the strongest of the ToB base classes as is.

Agreed +1. The thing that keeps them "in line" with the other ToB classes is the medium BAB and the recovery technique. To combat that they get tons and tons of skills, the most maneuvers from the most "disciplines", and good REF/WILL saves (which WILL being the most important save).

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-05, 10:05 PM
Master of Nine gives you 8 maneuvers known and 2 stances known from any of the nine schools in 5 levels. It also lets you be in two stances at once for a while, and the level 5 ability boosts attack and damage. I'm totally fine with giving up BAB for that, considering even Swordsages only get 1 maneuver per level. Making your last 5 levels Mo9 can let you stock up on 7th, 8th, and 9th level maneuvers which is nothing to sneeze at.

Bloodclaw Master completely removes penalties for TWF, as well as some nifty stuff like low-light vision and scent. If you're already focusing on TWF, I'd say it's better than Tempest strictly because of the maneuvers known and advancing Initiator Level.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-05, 10:20 PM
Agreed +1. The thing that keeps them "in line" with the other ToB classes is the medium BAB and the recovery technique. To combat that they get tons and tons of skills, the most maneuvers from the most "disciplines", and good REF/WILL saves (which WILL being the most important save).

Actually, another consideration is that Swordsages special Schools, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand aren't all that fantastic. Shadow Hand is very specialized, and Desert Wind is crippled by the wide spread Fire Immunity.

On the other hand, Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit are both fantastic schools.

AslanCross
2009-12-06, 12:27 AM
Hmmm.. What is so horrible with the arcane swordsage? :smalltongue:

Imagine wizard spellcasting.

Now imagine wizard spellcasting that you can renew DURING an encounter and replace between encounters. And of course, with the obligatory Adaptive Style, you can do both in a full-round action.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-06, 12:30 AM
Agreed +1. The thing that keeps them "in line" with the other ToB classes is the medium BAB and the recovery technique. To combat that they get tons and tons of skills, the most maneuvers from the most "disciplines", and good REF/WILL saves (which WILL being the most important save).

Fort/Will are about equal in importance, as about 95% of the SoL spells target one or the other.

Polymorph protects from several of the Fort SoL's. Mind Blank protects from many, if not most, Will SoL's.

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 12:38 AM
Arcane Swordsage is an abomination. I just pretend it wasn't printed in the book.

Remember, Arcane Swordsage is a suggestion for a class, not a class.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-06, 02:37 AM
Even with their medium BAB, they're arguably the strongest of the ToB base classes as is.
Though the general consensus is that all three ToB classes are phenomenally close in power, most consider Swordsage the weakest. Desert Wind and Setting Sun are relatively weak (especially compared to Devoted Spirit), and the Swordsage's recovery mechanic is abysmal, even with Adaptive Style. A Swordsage who runs out of maneuvers is nigh-useless in combat, and it is very possible to run out, even with their relatively high number of readied maneuvers.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-06, 02:41 AM
Though the general consensus is that all three ToB classes are phenomenally close in power, most consider Swordsage the weakest. Desert Wind and Setting Sun are relatively weak (especially compared to Devoted Spirit), and the Swordsage's recovery mechanic is abysmal, even with Adaptive Style. A Swordsage who runs out of maneuvers is nigh-useless in combat, and it is very possible to run out, even with their relatively high number of readied maneuvers.

A Swordsage should always have Adaptive Style.

It is possible to run out, but not easy.

That said, Shadow hand is one of the stronger schools, and it's a Swordsage-exclusive as well.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-06, 02:42 AM
A Swordsage should always have Adaptive Style.

It is possible to run out, but not easy.

That said, Shadow hand is one of the stronger schools, and it's a Swordsage-exclusive as well.

Shadow hand is strong, but extremely situational. Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit are useful pretty much all the time.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-06, 02:46 AM
Shadow hand is strong, but extremely situational. Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit are useful pretty much all the time.

I've never known a situation where I couldn't use a move or swift action dimension door.

lord_khaine
2009-12-06, 04:29 AM
And i have allways found Desert wind to be pretty powerfull as well, IMO the number of opponents in high level that have fire resistance is pretty overratet, and is mostly depending on the campaign.

Saph
2009-12-06, 08:00 AM
Though the general consensus is that all three ToB classes are phenomenally close in power, most consider Swordsage the weakest. Desert Wind and Setting Sun are relatively weak (especially compared to Devoted Spirit), and the Swordsage's recovery mechanic is abysmal, even with Adaptive Style. A Swordsage who runs out of maneuvers is nigh-useless in combat, and it is very possible to run out, even with their relatively high number of readied maneuvers.

In my experience, if a swordsage has used up all of his maneuvers, odds are that all the enemies in the immediate vicinity are dead. As to their schools, Desert Wind is pretty useful - sure, lots of things have fire resistance but the whole point is that you don't use it on things with fire resistance. And Shadow Hand is amazing. Free teleportation at level 3 is crazy good. (By contrast, the equivalent that casters get is the Dimensional Jaunt feat, which you're probably not going to get until level 9 and which has only half the range.)

AstralFire
2009-12-06, 02:36 PM
And i have allways found Desert wind to be pretty powerfull as well, IMO the number of opponents in high level that have fire resistance is pretty overratet, and is mostly depending on the campaign.

100% agreed. It's not like it's a big stretch for a DM to use monsters with different resistances, since that's a very quick homebrew. Elemental resistances are important for the PC to note if they're, say, a prepared caster with a huge list - you can vary what you use easily. IMO, if your DM knows you're specializing in Desert Wind and continues to throw Fire Resistant enemies at you all the time, he's just being a jerk or oblivious.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-06, 04:44 PM
Swordsage is just fine where it is. Shadow Hand is tied for best school (with Devoted Spirit) in my personal ranking system. I also find the idea that Setting Sun is weak to be odd--it's a school you have to FOCUS on, taking feats like Improved Trip to make it work for you, but you can do some nasty things with it if you do it right. Shifting Defense combined with Combat Reflexes makes for one of the best melee defenses in the game.

In the end, Swordsage gets more than enough to make up for its mediocre BAB. Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade are remarkably well balanced against each other as-is, and I see no need to mess with that formula.

Stegyre
2009-12-06, 04:45 PM
I've never known a situation where I couldn't use a move or swift action dimension door.
Much less greater invisibility and continuous 20% concealment.

All the ToB classes are good, but SS is easily my favorite, in no small part due to Shadow Hand.

Rogue 7
2009-12-06, 05:28 PM
Swordsage is my favorite class largely because I'm a sucker for dex-based fighters who can quickly elevate their AC into the stratosphere. With weapon finesse and shadow blade, a Swordsage could not care less about strength. An AC in the low 20's is phenomenally easy to pull off at 1st level, which is fantastic. Then you add in various magic items (+1 mithril breastplate, I'm looking at you.) and buffs, and you're untouchable. I was in a party with a Crusader and a Warblade and I was still easily the most powerful member, because I was basically untouchable. We went into a fight against some lycanthropes, and I schooled their leader quick-like thanks to my native AC and 2 potions- shield and shield of faith. An AC of 27 at 3rd level is brilliant.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-12-06, 06:04 PM
Bloodclaw Master is a bit weird, given how feral and "combatative" the class feels, but it's still good as it removes TWF penalties entirely so you lose 2 BAB for +2 to all attacks (effectively).
Doesn't that strike anyone else as kinda...counter productive, bordering on retarded? "Look at the class we made that makes TWF almost worth using for a tank! It completely removes the -2 penalty when you TWF and instead penalizes all your attacks by that amount!"

Some of the class' other abilities are cool, but overall the Bloodclaw Master appears to be a devil's promise. Am I not seeing something?

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 01:31 AM
Doesn't that strike anyone else as kinda...counter productive, bordering on retarded? "Look at the class we made that makes TWF almost worth using for a tank! It completely removes the -2 penalty when you TWF and instead penalizes all your attacks by that amount!"

Some of the class' other abilities are cool, but overall the Bloodclaw Master appears to be a devil's promise. Am I not seeing something?

Well, it isn't that bad, really; if you take 4- levels, you get +2 to TWF and -1 to all; if it's a SS progression, it's even better. Really, ToB does that a lot; Mo9 gets various boosts to all Strikes, Swordsage gets the free Weapon Focus on level 1, etc. So most of the classes are "Ok, so you have Medium BAB, but not really".

But yeah, the 5-level Medium BAB thingy almost necessities Fractional BAB if you wanna take 'em all the way without crippling yourself.

Person_Man
2009-12-07, 10:41 AM
It just removes Power Attack as an option (and even then, not entirely), which is not that big of a deal when you consider how many other options they get.

Deepstone Sentinel rocks at battlefield control, which is generally considered the most powerful option in 3.5.

Master of Nine gets Duel Stance, which is definitely worth giving up a few points of BAB.

Bloodclaw Master sucks. It needs to be entirely rewritten. And when some ambitious homebrewer does rewrite it, I agree that it deserves full BAB.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 11:04 AM
It just removes Power Attack as an option (and even then, not entirely), which is not that big of a deal when you consider how many other options they get.

Deepstone Sentinel rocks at battlefield control, which is generally considered the most powerful option in 3.5.

Master of Nine gets Duel Stance, which is definitely worth giving up a few points of BAB.

Biggest selling point I find in Mot9 is Counter Stance to rape action economy even more. That and Mastery of the Nine is nice too, and of course Dual Stance is pretty good. But especially Counter Stance.


Bloodclaw Master sucks. It needs to be entirely rewritten. And when some ambitious homebrewer does rewrite it, I agree that it deserves full BAB.

I still find it worth it for Str-based TWF; Claws of the Beast makes it work out. Combine that with Knock-Down and such for fun. Of course it's MAD and feat starved due to being TWF, but meh.