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View Full Version : Orisons and Cantrips: how to exploit



Brendan
2009-12-05, 11:32 AM
So, I was thinking about some various threads from a while ago, like one about "mini-wish" (prestididgitation) and the like. I started to wonder what arethe best ways to exploit the zero level spells. I created a class that, while unable to cast anything but zero level spell, can use multiple ones at once, and exploit their abilities. Anyways, I was wondering how to exploit these spells.
Here is what I have already:
mage hand: mess up target's brain, killing the enemy, or squeeze an artery.
create water, followed by purify food and drink: take large chunk out of earth elemental or ground.
Summon instrument: summon piano atop enemy's head
Prestidigitation: easy, there is a whole thread on it.
Lullabye+touch of fatigue+open/close (eyes): sleep time
Terrify: inflict minor wounds: Making a will save is always scary, but then taking one damage makes them be just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
etc
What else is there, what can be done?

olelia
2009-12-05, 11:36 AM
So, I was thinking about some various threads from a while ago, like one about "mini-wish" (prestididgitation) and the like. I started to wonder what arethe best ways to exploit the zero level spells. I created a class that, while unable to cast anything but zero level spell, can use multiple ones at once, and exploit their abilities. Anyways, I was wondering how to exploit these spells.
Here is what I have already:
mage hand: mess up target's brain, killing the enemy, or squeeze an artery.
create water, followed by purify food and drink: take large chunk out of earth elemental or ground.
Summon instrument: summon piano atop enemy's head
Prestidigitation: easy, there is a whole thread on it.
Lullabye+touch of fatigue+open/close (eyes): sleep time
Terrify: inflict minor wounds: Making a will save is always scary, but then taking one damage makes them be just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
etc
What else is there, what can be done?

Summon Instrument
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Brd 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One summoned handheld musical instrument
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons one handheld musical instrument of your choice. This instrument appears in your hands or at your feet (your choice). The instrument is typical for its type. Only one instrument appears per casting, and it will play only for you. You can’t summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands.


Bolded for convenience.

Tengu_temp
2009-12-05, 11:41 AM
Most of the "exploits" you listen don't work by RAW, and no sane DM will ever allow them either. Sorry.

Douglas
2009-12-05, 11:51 AM
mage hand: mess up target's brain, killing the enemy, or squeeze an artery.
Not a valid target. Mage Hand works only on objects. Even for a similar but higher level spell that could target creatures, unless specifically stated otherwise you can only ever target an entire creature, not part of one.


create water, followed by purify food and drink: take large chunk out of earth elemental or ground.
Allow me to quote the spell description: "the spell has no effect on creatures of any type". As for using it on the ground, that's like saying you want a meal with your fortune cookie. The ground is very obviously the greater portion here, and I doubt most DMs would allow you to consider it as "contaminated water" rather than wet dirt.


Summon instrument: summon piano atop enemy's head
Two failures here: You can’t summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonInstrument.htm) and A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration)


Prestidigitation: easy, there is a whole thread on it.
And pretty much every abusive use of it I have ever seen listed is not actually valid.


Lullabye+touch of fatigue+open/close (eyes): sleep time
Open/close does not work on creatures or parts of creatures. As for the other two, ok you've made someone very temporarily tired.


Terrify: inflict minor wounds: Making a will save is always scary, but then taking one damage makes them be just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
This depends on the target being very unfamiliar with magic and suspicious. Unless your DM regularly homebrews spells that do something similar with a nasty "other shoe", your target will just shrug, slightly confused, and go "is that all?"

Before you try abusing cantrips, please actually read the rules involved. Almost everything you can do with cantrips that is actually RAW valid is not abusive.

Brendan
2009-12-05, 11:51 AM
Summon Instrument
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Brd 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One summoned handheld musical instrument
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons one handheld musical instrument of your choice. This instrument appears in your hands or at your feet (your choice). The instrument is typical for its type. Only one instrument appears per casting, and it will play only for you. You can’t summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands.

Oh, right. a while ago it got past my dm, so it is now used by us, so I guess I forgot that it was a house rule.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-05, 11:53 AM
Bolded for convenience.

Just have a high strength then. :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-05, 12:06 PM
There's a darkness cantrip in BoVD that is impenetrable by anything but darkvision, and a ring of the darkhidden from MIC makes you invisible to darkvision. Constant invisibility for 2000 gp and a cantrip.

Sneak attack with ray of frost/acid splash.

Use purify food and drink on a flesh to stone/rock to mud'd creature to turn it into a pool of water, which you then dispose of.

Ghost sound to lead pursuers away from you after you hide (footsteps walking down the corridor, etc), or to scare someone with the faint sound of breathing right over their shoulder. Pass messages to someone over some distance away when you wouldn't want to shout at them for various reasons.

Mending would be useful on massive broken objects (weighing up to 4000 lbs) that have had shrink item cast on them (nice for fixing that "tinfoil hat" [see: adamantine hat] that just got cleaved in twain by the barbarian you just squashed).

Create water could very well be used with control water to make more water. Good if you also have some way of freezing water, such as if your DM rules that other cold spells (and alchemical items) have additional effects. Also note that it's an instantaneous duration spell, meaning you can get as much water as you want over time. Fill up your portable hole (potable hole?) to bull-rush enemies into before sealing up. Let 'em drown.

The Gilded Duke
2009-12-05, 12:22 PM
Message is great for spy missions, burglaries, or black ops in general.
Prestigitation for cleaning up crime scenes
Ghost sound to throw off pursuers.

And at low levels, Daze is the best thing ever. Daze has prevented TPKs on multiple occasions in my group.

awa
2009-12-05, 12:26 PM
its amazing how often someone suggest summoning something heavy over someones head

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-05, 12:30 PM
...I created a class that, while unable to cast anything but zero level spell, can use multiple ones at once, and exploit their abilities....

It was in a 3rd party thing that I can't find atm, but the Hedge Wizard it had did just that. He was a Wizard who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond (rural vilage), rather than studying in a fancy dan city Mage Academy.

He esentially gave up anything higher than a single 5th level spell slot at 20th level, in exchange for the power to cast all Cantrips spontaneously, infinitely and later metamagicked for free. It also had a load of new Cantrips, my favourite (and the most useless being Sour: any cow this is cast on produces only sour milk for 1 month :smallcool:).

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-05, 12:30 PM
its amazing how often someone suggest summoning something heavy over someones headWhile you can't summon something over someone's head, you CAN teleport into midair.

And, of course, I can hold a pianoforté with 2 hands, even if I can't pick one up (though with a high enough Strength I could).

Also, I do believe you can use a saw as an instrument.

...or a bard.

ericgrau
2009-12-05, 12:43 PM
Summon instrument specifically says that the instrument appears in your hands or at your feet. Summoning in general has other restrictions in the casting rules which prevent the common summon whale above his head tricks for multiple reasons.

If you can spam cantrips then multi-class to rogue and spam sneak attacks.

deuxhero
2009-12-05, 12:51 PM
Caltrops is a easy battlefield control so long as the foes don't fly yet.

TheLaughingLich
2009-12-05, 01:09 PM
And, of course, I can hold a pianoforté with 2 hands, even if I can't pick one up (though with a high enough Strength I could).
It also never specifies your two hands.

nekomata2
2009-12-05, 01:21 PM
Launch Bolt, the bolt is the material component for the spell. One Eschew materials later, you magically create bolts to launch...make em bigger. You have that whole gold piece, so use a larger bolt.

Sliver
2009-12-05, 01:51 PM
It was in a 3rd party thing that I can't find atm, but the Hedge Wizard it had did just that. He was a Wizard who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond (rural vilage), rather than studying in a fancy dan city Mage Academy.

Mongoose!

After getting unlimited cantrips, he gets at level 16 "A Better Cantrip". Sounds awesome, right?

awa
2009-12-05, 02:03 PM
it actually does specify your hands

Ravens_cry
2009-12-05, 02:04 PM
its amazing how often someone suggest summoning something heavy over someones head
I home-brewed a spell SPECIFICALLY to do that. It was anvils though, not pianos.
And that's all folks!

Volkov
2009-12-05, 02:11 PM
it actually does specify your hands

What if you are a mountain giant? :P

awa
2009-12-05, 02:15 PM
then your still better off just picking up a rock and throwing it

Volkov
2009-12-05, 02:16 PM
then your still better off just picking up a rock and throwing it
You could use a huge giant's piano. Which would probably be as big as an elephant.

Darrin
2009-12-05, 02:28 PM
Just have a high strength then. :smalltongue:

Actually, just have a high strength and a level of Hulking Hurler. A 201-lb church bell can be held/played in both hands, and also thrown as an improvised weapon for 5d6 damage.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-05, 02:43 PM
What if you are a mountain giant? :P

It would size appropriate so it is huge or Colossal.

Mongoose87
2009-12-05, 03:28 PM
It would size appropriate so it is huge or Colossal.

So you summon an electric piano.

Brendan
2009-12-05, 10:34 PM
Does it summon a specific instrument or just any? if any, than start a successful business by summoning and selling lots of instruments. I bet it is one specific one. They never would have let that get past them.
A few of my teammates did once get into an arguement over you can summon a monster into someone's liver. It technically can survive there for some time. Not much, but some.

Shyftir
2009-12-05, 10:42 PM
"Ya gotta know the territory!"

It goes away after a certain amount of time, selling summoned instruments would be a good way of being chased out of town by an angry mob.

Pluto
2009-12-05, 10:43 PM
Does it summon a specific instrument or just any? if any, than start a successful business by summoning and selling lots of instruments. I bet it is one specific one. They never would have let that get past them.
It has a 1-minute/level duration... good luck with that.

Brendan
2009-12-05, 10:58 PM
It can take maybe a minute or so to make the transaction and then run once they're out of sight.

Douglas
2009-12-05, 11:14 PM
"it will play only for you"

Good luck convincing someone to buy it without trying it out first.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-05, 11:23 PM
This depends on the target being very unfamiliar with magic and suspicious. Unless your DM regularly homebrews spells that do something similar with a nasty "other shoe", your target will just shrug, slightly confused, and go "is that all?"


There are RAW spells that do effects that are not readily apparent. Backbiter, for example.

I believe Fell Drain and Sonic Snap makes the lowest level guaranteed level drain.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-06, 12:08 AM
its amazing how often someone suggest summoning something heavy over someones head

That used to work in 2E, IIRC. More than one opponent has fallen to the arcane art of summoning whales from above.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 12:20 AM
That used to work in 2E, IIRC. More than one opponent has fallen to the arcane art of summoning whales from above.I know some jokes about wales. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNJStquFEGk)

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-06, 12:21 AM
Summon Instrument, hm...

"I summon my enemy's heart."
"That's not an instrument."
"It keeps the beat pretty well, and if push comes to shove I'll play it like a bagpipe."
"But you can't choose-"
"The text says a musical instrument of my choice."
"You can't do that."
"Fine then, I summon my enemy's head."
"What?"
"You want me to come over there and play your head like a bongo?"
"... You summon a piccolo. And you're happy about it."
"Is it an adamantine piccolo?"
"Why would you want-"
"Does it have spikes on it?"
"No, it's just a-"
"Can it transform into a dragon?"
"... The piccolo transforms into a dragon and bites your head off."
"Best piccolo ever."

Randel
2009-12-06, 12:22 AM
Just summon an Instrument of Murder (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstrumentOfMurder).

Get the shakuhashi flute mentioned on the page. A really heavily built flute that can double as a club.

Or a guitar thats conveniently well balanced for clubbing people over the head.

Or (you really might need to homebrew an actual attack spell for this) summon an Ominous Pipe Organ (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OminousPipeOrgan), preferably one that fires off fireworks or jets of steam when you play it correctly. Or at the least, if it has wheels on it you can push it along and use it to help ram things.

No need to summon pianos over people heads, just use them to block doors, drop off cliffs, use as an emergency floatation device, charge enemies with it, or use it as a makeshift battering ram.

Summon a spiked electric guitar
summon a violin that you then use as a makeshift bow-and-arrow
Summon some heavy drums (like those big ones that the taskmaster would use on old boats to make sure the galley slaves row in time) and then duel-wield the drum sticks.
If there is any way to cause and avalanche... summon a super-megaphone horn.
Summon a set of bagpipes and mess up the ears with any creature that uses sonar to navigate.
Summon a dog-whistle, take a deep breath, and then drive spikes of pain into everything even remotely resembling a canine in a miles radius while your allies are A-okay (except for your Shifter rogue... sorry Rex, I promise I'll learn sign-language the next time I have a change to learn a language.)

Summon a gong and use it as a shield or throw it like a Frisbee at enemies.

Summon anything to get enough mass to jam into a door or other gizmo...

Lappy9000
2009-12-06, 12:26 AM
Summon Instrument, hm...

"I summon my enemy's heart."
"That's not an instrument."
"It keeps the beat pretty well, and if push comes to shove I'll play it like a bagpipe."
"But you can't choose-"
"The text says a musical instrument of my choice."
"You can't do that."
"Fine then, I summon my enemy's head."
"What?"
"You want me to come over there and play your head like a bongo?"
"... You summon a piccolo. And you're happy about it."
"Is it an adamantine piccolo?"
"Why would you want-"
"Does it have spikes on it?"
"No, it's just a-"
"Can it transform into a dragon?"
"... The piccolo transforms into a dragon and bites your head off."
"Best piccolo ever."Is that right off the top of your head? Sounds very...gazebo-ish :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 12:35 AM
Serrated cymbals. Chop peoples' heads off.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-06, 12:36 AM
It may be possible to summon a piano.

The instrument has to be able to be held in 2 hands. As such, it would be reasonable for a sizeable dragon to summon a baby grand fit for a medium creature.

Lappy9000
2009-12-06, 12:36 AM
It may be possible to summon a piano.

The instrument has to be able to be held in 2 hands. As such, it would be reasonable for a sizeable dragon to summon a baby grand fit for a medium creature.Or a really tiny piano.

ocdscale
2009-12-06, 12:38 AM
Or a really tiny piano.

"Do you really think I asked for a 12" pianist?"

Lappy9000
2009-12-06, 12:40 AM
"Do you really think I asked for a 12" pianist?":smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty sure that's only a moderately tiny piano.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 01:15 AM
"Do you really think I asked for a 12" 12' pianist?"Fixed.

It IS a dragon after all. They're bound to measure in feet, not inches.

Good for the half-dragon, but not for his mother. :smalleek:

Milskidasith
2009-12-06, 01:31 AM
mage hand: mess up target's brain, killing the enemy, or squeeze an artery.

No line of effect.


create water, followed by purify food and drink: take large chunk out of earth elemental or ground.

No clue how that's supposed to do anything, unless you consider the water on an earth elemental contaminated. Even then, it would still have no LoE to the water if it was actually in it, so at best you... detach some water off the top. Even if you could break LoE, there's nothing to say the water doesn't just splash out of the earth elemental.


Summon instrument: summon piano atop enemy's head


Doesn't work.


Lullabye+touch of fatigue+open/close (eyes): sleep time

Open/close doesn't work. Helps to make touch of fatigue better, though.


Terrify: inflict minor wounds: Making a will save is always scary, but then taking one damage makes them be just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
etc

Not sure what you mean by that, at all, unless you mean using it on the PCs, in which case it's a DC 10 spellcraft check to know the spell.


What else is there, what can be done?

With your current tally of ideas... we have zero ideas to exploit the spells.

EDIT: Massively ninja'd. Shows me for leaving a window up while I go get food. >_<

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 01:39 AM
Summon instrument should allow you to summon a bard that uses Perform (Whistling) or some other musical style that uses the body (including Singing, Humming, and Mime Kill it with Fire).

And the best part is, it'll only play for you. No domination effects to mess you up.

Hey, destrachans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/destrachan.htm) make noise. Kinda like a big kazoo.

Milskidasith
2009-12-06, 01:44 AM
Summon instrument should allow you to summon a bard that uses Perform (Whistling) or some other musical style that uses the body (including Singing, Humming, and Mime Kill it with Fire).

And the best part is, it'll only play for you. No domination effects to mess you up.

Hey, destrachans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/destrachan.htm) make noise. Kinda like a big kazoo.

As an aside, how in the name of the nine hells is that CR 8? It's got low HP, low damaging attacks, and it's best move is only an average of 21 HP damage if you fail the easy reflex save.

Sliver
2009-12-06, 01:59 AM
As an aside, how in the name of the nine hells is that CR 8? It's got low HP, low damaging attacks, and it's best move is only an average of 21 HP damage if you fail the easy reflex save.

Fear the d6! He can roll up to 6d6 every turn. Every Turn!!! It is overpowered..

awa
2009-12-06, 02:20 AM
only if hes doing subdual damage other wise its just 4d6
the cr does seem a bit odd it would be hard to hide from but that's about it

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-06, 02:21 AM
I'd say it's CR 4. MAYBE 5.

awa
2009-12-06, 02:30 AM
be fair its not super strong but a lot of creatures of cr 8 have around that many hit points it ignores armor with a area of affect attack every round and you cant sneak past it with out a special feat and even then it has a great listen check.

The big danger is it can wreck large amounts of equipment with a single attack from 80 feet away. Destroy much of the parties metal goods watch the party cry as their sword armor and even gold disintegrates.

Besides its no ogre mage

Sliver
2009-12-06, 02:30 AM
only if hes doing subdual damage other wise its just 4d6
the cr does seem a bit odd it would be hard to hide from but that's about it

It doesn't really matter what kind of damage he deals. If it wins it can CDG them if it wants, otherwise, it just makes recovery after a tough CR8 battle (look, you have to do a lot of calculating with all those d6 flying around) easier. Yeah, it is not CR8..

But it can be used.. Like, only one PC stands among his mates after the battle, they won, everybody at negative HP but stable, he is at single digit HP. Then comes the Aberration, plays and kills them all. "You only had 3 fights this day, and it should be a lower CR anyway". Move along.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 02:36 AM
What if you are a mountain giant? :P

I read this as "mountain goat," so I was really confused when I kept reading.

Somewhere
2009-12-06, 02:20 PM
How fast can Mage Hand propel a hard 5 lb-or-less object at a humanoid's groin?

Can Dancing Lights be targeted an inch from a person's face to act as a makeshift blinding effect/vision blocking?

Do hair or nails count as nonliving matter in D&D-land? And how quickly/extremely can prestidigitation 'heat'/'chill' 'nonliving matter'?

Milskidasith
2009-12-06, 02:22 PM
How fast can Mage Hand propel a hard 5 lb-or-less object at a humanoid's groin?

Doesn't work by RAW. Speed is irrelevant to a weapons damage.


Can Dancing Lights be targeted an inch from a person's face to act as a makeshift blinding effect/vision blocking?

No.


Do hair or nails count as nonliving matter in D&D-land? And how quickly/extremely can prestidigitation 'heat'/'chill' 'nonliving matter'?

No, and heat and chill don't imply changing enough to be painful.

Flickerdart
2009-12-06, 02:31 PM
But it can be used.. Like, only one PC stands among his mates after the battle, they won, everybody at negative HP but stable, he is at single digit HP. Then comes the Aberration, plays and kills them all. "You only had 3 fights this day, and it should be a lower CR anyway". Move along.
The description explicitly states that it destroys armour and weapons first. So the surviving PC has a few turns before it starts swinging.

Somewhere
2009-12-06, 02:33 PM
Can Prestidigitation alternate heating/chilling extremely and rapidly enough to break things?

Sliver
2009-12-06, 02:46 PM
One of the common attempts I encountered was to cast Light on someone's eyeballs..