View Full Version : MM dragon-redoing core monsters and templates with players in mind

2009-12-05, 08:36 PM
This will be the first part of my D&D overhaul project, started on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133879). The main objectives here are:

1-Make monster's HD=CR, so they can be easily converted to monster class progressions a la Savage species. This will demand tweaking of stats and abilities, but I'm willing to work for that.

2-Erase abuseable monster abilities. SLAs now work exactly as spells, costs included. Efreetis don't grant true wishes. No at will utility SLAs. No big slow monsters unable to affect fliers.

3-Completely replace LA. A player is suposed to pick up a monster and play it as a character with it's level=CR. Templates won't alter level, they'll demand some kind of payment, have built in penalities or will be turned into small prcs.

The above however demands that monsters are either equiped with items to provide a challenge to the party, or then give them a bonus to make up for the lack of item. This bonus is the savage template, that represents a being who forsakes sophisticated material possessions for a rough life that has strenghtened it's body. Each monster entry will have sugested changes for it if it takes the savage template. This also assumes the removal of pretty much every stat boosting item and spell/effect out there.


It's an aqcuired template that can be added to any creature, refered from here on as the "savage".

Savagery: The savage can never benefit from items besides non magic nonmasterwork weapons. This doesn't mean however a savage has no use for money. Savage intelegent creatures spend money in booze, fine foods and diversion, donate it for noble causes or greedily hoard it just for the sake of it. A player using the savage template thus

Tough skin:The savage adds twice his con bonus to his AC, plus an extra +1 for each 3HD it has. This bonus doesn't count against touch attacks. The savage also gains +1 natural armor at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

Feats:The savage gains an extra feat upon gaining this template, and another one for each 3 HD it has. It basicaly gains feats at the double normal rate.

Skills:The savage gains a bonus on all his skills equal to the number of ranks he has on them.

Savage strike: Despite using natural or simple weapons, the savage uses them with brutal effeciency. If the savage has at least 2 HD, all weapons used by it count as having a +1 enanchment bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for each extra 2 HD the savage has, up to +10 at 20 HD. The savage can choose to actualy have +10 to attack and damage rolls, or it can choose to convert any amount of it for extra abilities like flaming or keen. Once chosen wich kind of bonus is gained, it cannot be changed untill the savage gains two new HD, at wich point they may choose a new set of abilities.

Savage strikes can be disarmed, in wich case their lose their bonus for 1d4 rounds, or sundered, in wich case they work as normal weapons untill the savage rests for 24 hours straight to heal/repair them.

Savage dodge:At 4 HD the savage gains +1 dodge bonus to his AC. This increases by +1 every other 4 levels.

Savage potential:

Savage resistance: At 3 HD, the savage gains a +1 bonus to his saves, wich increases by +1 for every 3 HD, up to +6 at 18HD.

Savage reduction: If the savage has DR or energy resistance, it increases by +1 for each 2HD of the savage.

Savage freedom:For each 2 HD it has, a savage gains a freedom point. At the begining of it's turn, it may sacrifice a freedom point for either doing a greater dispel magic on itself with caster level qual to it's HD or replicate the effect of a greater restoration. This doesn't take any action from the savage. Freedom points are regained at the rate of 1 per day.

Note on size modifiers and skills:
I'm adopting the pathfinder's skill system. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills)

Also, size modifiers now only affect skills and grapple in a 1 to 1 basis. So a large creature only takes -1 to hide, but only gains +1 on grapples, and a small creatures takes -1 to grapples but tains only +1 to hide.

Plus penalties/bonus to attack due to size only apply for ranged attacks from now on. This is all to make size less releveant so it can be given to players more easily.

And now, a classical monster:

Red dragon

Skills points per level:6. All skills are class skills for a dragon.
Good fort and will saves.

Size increases increase the red dragon's existant natural weapons damage.

Proefecient with his own natural weapons.

1st level: Dragon traits, fire subtype, bite 1d8 damage, 2 claws attack for 1d6 damage each, Bard spellcasting but taking spells from the sorceror spell list, 40 base speed,

2nd level: keen senses, fire breath cone 30 feet dealing 1d6 damage/HD with DC ref of 10+1/2 HD+con mod for half every 1d4 turns.

3rd level: blindsense 60 feets, +1 str, +1 con.

4th level: fly (poor) of 10 feets per HD, 2 wing attacks for 1d4 damage each.

5th level: increase to large size, tail slap 1d8

6th level: locate object and sugrestion SLAs 1/day, +1 Cha.

7th level: +1 str, +1 con

8th level: locate object and sugrestion SLA 2/day, +1 Cha.

9th level:+1 str, +1 con

10th level:locate object and sugrestion SLA 3/day, +1 Cha.

11th level:SR 10+HD

12th level: DR 1/2 HD bypassable by magic.

13th level: Huge size, crush 2d8.

14th level: frightfull presence(as per srd).

15th level:locate object and sugrestion SLA 4/day, +1 CHA

16th level:+1 str, +1 con.

18th level:locate object and sugrestion SLA 5/day, +1 CHA

19th level:+1 str, +1 con.

20th level: gargantuan size, tail sweed 2d6.

Sample savage red dragon CR 10, with base stats of 15, 12, 14, 10, 8, 13

Large dragon(fire)
Speed: 40 feet, fly 100 feets(poor)
AC: 24(10+9+2 nat+2 dodge +1 dex) touch 13, flat footed 21, -1 against ranged.
Saves: +13 fort, +7 ref, +9 will
Str18 Dex12 Con17 Int10 Wis8 Cha18

Full attack(assuming full savage attack bonus to hit/dmg):
Bite +19 (2d6+9), 2 claws +14(1d8+7), 2 wings +14(1d6+7), tail slap +14 (1d8+11)

SA: dragon breath cone 40 feet 10d6 ref 18 for half.
SQ: 10th level bard spellcasting, keen senses, blindsense 60 feets.

Feats:pick 8.
Skills:6 skills maxed.

Also, if somebody could give me a quick tutorial on how to make tables on the forums, I would be most pleased.:smallredface:

2009-12-06, 06:06 AM
Hmm. Savage template + Barbarian=hilarious.
Level 10 Barbie would have DR 7/- as oppose to 2.
Also his AC goes up while raging.
Does the enhancement count as magical enhancement for the weapons, or do we finally have characters that may fail to overcome DR/Magic?

2009-12-07, 05:43 AM
Here's your table format. Please note that you need to remove the spaces inside the tags.

[ TABLE ]001 | 002 | 003
011 | 012 | 013
[ B ]Bold![ /B ] | [ I ]Slanty![ /I ] | Just normal
[ /TABLE ]

{TABLE]001 | 002 | 003
011 | 012 | 013
Bold! | Slanty! | Just normal

A one more thing to note. The first line needs to be next to the TABLE tag. If not, the whole table will only be one column long. Here is what it looks like when the first line is only line under the TABLE tag.

001 | 002 | 003
011 | 012 | 013
Bold! | Slanty! | Just normal


On the other note, I have to agree with BobVosh here. Savage is pretty impressive, all the more so when combined with a PC. A first level dwarf with 21 AC before equipment? +9 Ghost Touch weapons? Getting virtually all the feats a fighter could ever dream for? Wow.

2009-12-07, 05:08 PM
A first level dwarf with 21 AC before equipment? +9 Ghost Touch weapons? Getting virtually all the feats a fighter could ever dream for? Wow.

Eerrr, that's the trick. You can't get equipment. Just nonenchanted nonmastwerworck weapons. Your dwarf gets AC21, but wearing a fullplate still leaves him at 21 AC.

2009-12-07, 09:33 PM
True, but that's next to the 19 AC he would have without savagery for Full Plate + 12 DEX. For that matter, DEX is still applied to our dwarven friend, in full.

Have you compared savage characters to their standard counterparts at various levels to see how the two stack up? I'm sure that a savage wizard wouldn't fair well, but I'm wondering how much the loss of Cloak of Spiderclimb is made up by the template.

[/me will ignore Savage + Vow of Poverty cheesiness]

2009-12-07, 09:50 PM
That is an amazing class you have worked out there. When you have the time could you make a Blue dragon class like that, pretty please? :smallbiggrin: