Space Marine VS Master Chief

[AssassinKing]

Who do you think would win A space marine From Warhammer 40k or Master Chief from Halo?

[Inhuman Bot]

Who do you think would win A space marine From Warhammer 40k or Master Chief from Halo?

Uh.... under what circumstances?

I belive this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70661) may be of intrest to you.

[Mando Knight]

What are their equipment loadouts? MC uses an array of different weapons and has different sets of power armor. I don't play WH40K, but I'm sure Space Marines are much the same way.

[AssassinKing]

It doesn't really matter. Just figure out ways which one would win a fight, whether if it's a melee brawl to the death or a shootout until their brains fly out of their skull. Use facts for them both, It could help other people learn about both and it's fun to argue about it.

[warty goblin]

Although pretty much all of MC's kinetic weapons are human operable. If he's got the loadout he starts most levels of Combat Evolved with, he's totally, utterly, dead. I guess the pistol might chip the Space Marine's paintjob, but the assault rifle probably won't even manage that...

[AssassinKing]

Well I've looked at other forums about this and there were obviosly different advantages. The Space Marines armor is definately supperior. They are both intelligent and use good strategy, the weapons could really have a great effect.

[Rutskarn]

Yeah, I'm going to hand this to the Spehs Mahrens.

[warty goblin]

Well I've looked at other forums about this and there were obviosly different advantages. The Space Marines armor is definately supperior. They are both intelligent and use good strategy, the weapons could really have a great effect.

One of them uses human operable assault rifles, pistols and sniper rifles*, the other uses armor piercing grenade machine guns as their standard weapon. The degree to which this isn't even a contest is not particularly amusing.

*The sniper rifle might do some good, but as I've discussed previously the extreme physical hardiness of the Astertes combined with the crappy terminal ballistics of the discarding sabot round the rifle fires makes this far from a certain thing even if it does penetrate. The rocket launcher would probably kill with a direct hit, but its projectiles are not particularly rapid in flight.

[Gorgondantess]

Yeah... MC would be a leaky piece of scrap metal in a few seconds of bolter fire. The only way I can see him winning this is with a plasma weapon firing at an unarmed space marine at 100 yards, at least. That's probably even: the space marine has about a 50/50 chance of getting to MC before he's shot through, though if he makes it... well, there goes MC's head.
Unless we use video game physics where MC can run and shoot perfectly at the same time, in which case MC could just circle-strafe the poor unarmed ordo malleus to death.

[AssassinKing]

Keep in mind there are different situations. Just because I said Space Marine doesn't mean it has to be a tactical marine or a terminator. What about the scouts, that would be a close fight, if you think about it they kind of use the same weapons. If your thinking of a terminator, that is definately no challenge. A tactical marine based on my knowledge could take kill the Master Chief with no armor, A marine with all their armor can go faster maybe even more agile than a spartan so he could get to him before the master chief can do anything.

[Surrealistik]

MC is utterly screwed.

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, well, against a scout... wait, in that case wouldn't MC be dead before he even saw him?
Okay, sure in an open firefight the scout might only do okay against MC. But in the end, the general consensus is that MC is completely and untterly screwed unless the circumstances are completely in his favor, in which case he has a fighting chance, but still not much of one. Remember, a rank and file space marine can punch a man's head off or take a bolter shot to the face. Both without power armor.
And I believe when you say 'space marine', tactical marine is assumed.

[Texas_Ben]

Yeah, the spess mehren wins under basically any circumstance in which they are comparably equipped (that is, they are both equipped with their basic weapons, or heavy weapons, etc).

Let's look at what they've got available, shall we?
Spess Mehrens:
Bolter: Semi-automatic armor-piercing rocket-launcher. Standard sidearm.
Flamer: Exactly what it says on the tin
Meltagun/Multi-melta: Extremely nasty short-range anti-everything
Plasma gun: Super-effective at eliminating heavy infantry, and heavy infantry in 40k is significantly heavier than our boy john.
Heavy Bolter: MOAR BOLTER
Plasma Cannon: Nasty all around, by all accounts.
Lascannon: Um... yeah
Rocket Launcher: It's a rocket launcher

Spartans:
Assault Rifle: effective range--5 feet. Takes an obscene amount of bullets to kill anything.
SMG: Oh please...
Pistol: Let's be extremely charitable and say it's got the stopping power of a bolt pistol. Though that is probably a gross overestimation.
Shotgun: heh heh heh, not even going to dream of getting through the marine's armor.
Sniper Rifle: This one might actually be effective. Maybe.
Battle rifle: lol
Flamethrower: It's a flamethrower
MG Turret: It's a machine gun. Treat it like a heavy stubber.
Rocket Launcher: It's a rocket launcher
LAzor: the Lascannon's younger impotent brother.

[AssassinKing]

Yeah that is true, if you play the table top game you will know that the race or type of army is called the space marines and the space marines have different units, such as the scout or tactical marine. The scout vs The Master Chief would be a close fight because the armor might be the same or the MC's armor would be better. If they were in a fire fight with snipers it would obviously depend on who got first shot. With a shot gun it would probably the MC because he probably has better armor and they are both close up.

[Mr._Blinky]

Yeah, we already had a thread about this a while back. Consensus was eventually reached that a Spehs Mehreen would utterly destroy the MC. Don't get me wrong, Chief is incredibly tough, skilled, and fast, but Space Marines are from a universe where everything is as over-the-top badass as it can possibly be.

[AssassinKing]

Well I always wanted a good debate on this topic and I wanted to be a part of it without having to sign up for a different forum. I know space marines will kick ass but I want to see good arguements. In other forums all I saw good arguments for the marines but all I saw was the MC looks cool for him so yeah.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, but we need to remember one thing about the Spartan:

He's lucky. Irrationally lucky. Reverse Guildenstern lucky.

Therefore, he will probably be home sick the day of the fight and some poor IG schmuck will die in his place.

[PirateMonk]

Master Chief does have the advantage of being a main character, so if he gets his plot armor, he could win.

Edit- semi-ninjaed

[AssassinKing]

Ah, but we need to remember one thing about the Spartan:

He's lucky. Irrationally lucky. Reverse Guildenstern lucky.

Therefore, he will probably be home sick the day of the fight and some poor IG schmuck will die in his place.

:sigh:

The Scout will track him down and snipe him while not in armor.

[AssassinKing]

Master Chief does have the advantage of being a main character, so if he gets his plot armor, he could win.

Edit- semi-ninjaed

There are main characters in all the book series.

[chiasaur11]

:sigh:

The Scout will track him down and snipe him while not in armor.

He will be looking down for a quarter at the moment, which will cause the scout's shot to bounce off a series of improbably place shields and hit the scout in the eye.

[AssassinKing]

Yes because he would obviously be looking for a quarter when he is sick.

[chiasaur11]

It is a VERY shiny quarter.

[Green Bean]

Yes because he would obviously be looking for a quarter when he is sick.

Free money's free money. Chiefy needs a little extra cash on the side; three games, and I'm pretty sure the military hasn't paid him a dime.

[AssassinKing]

Wow this debate went way off course. The fact is the marine would kick the MC's butt. He could back hand the MC and his head would fly off out in the distance. Then he will never be paid or see the shiny quarter.

[chiasaur11]

But he did see the shiny quarter. Because he was home sick. Remember?

[AssassinKing]

Fine he saw the quarter and got killed the next day because an assault terminator with lighting claws diced him up into human sausage and sold him at a market and go rich.

[Yoren]

Is this fight between marine's as portrayed in the fluff or on the tabletop? If i remember correctly there was an article in the 40k magazine that had the stats for marines as they are portrayed in the fluff and they were hilarious.

[chiasaur11]

Now we're just being silly. Spartan meat wouldn't get you rich. Too many additives.

(Also, I figure if this fight has a consensus, I figure we try someone else against the challenger who has a better chance. Say, Joe Q Random Psi Score 100 endgame X-Com operative.)

[Lord of Rapture]

Now we're just being silly. Spartan meat wouldn't get you rich. Too many additives.

(Also, I figure if this fight has a consensus, I figure we try someone else against the challenger who has a better chance. Say, Joe Q Random Psi Score 100 endgame X-Com operative.)

Well, that depends on the marine then. That is to say, how brainwashed he is. And whether he is a Librarian or Chaplain.

If the X-Com operative doesn't manage to brainwash that marine, then he's toast. NOT ENOUGH TIME UNITS!

Alternatively, he could just forget the psi and go straight with his heavy plasma, in which he has a 50/50 chance of killing the marine before the marine kills him.

[SurlySeraph]

Remember, a rank and file space marine can punch a man's head off or take a bolter shot to the face. Both without power armor.

I think that's an exaggeration, though Space Marines are very good.

Really, MC has the best chance if things are at long range. Bolters lack sniper rifle range and accuracy, and the marines' tendency to stand right out in the open, not wear helmets, and spurn camouflage means that one or two headshots could easily kill them. Even if the marine *was* wearing his helmet, sniper rifle shots can penetrate through a whole row of enemies; going through a few inches of ceramic armor and metallic bone into the SM's brain wouldn't be any harder.

At medium range, Chief doesn't have a great chance. They're both going to locate each other with similar ease, and the overwhelming close-range power of SM weapons starts to factor in.

At close range, slaughter by chainsword.

Marine takes it overall, though I think Chief definitely has the edge at long range.

[Mr._Blinky]

I think that's an exaggeration, though Space Marines are very good.

Really, MC has the best chance if things are at long range. Bolters lack sniper rifle range and accuracy, and the marines' tendency to stand right out in the open, not wear helmets, and spurn camouflage means that one or two headshots could easily kill them. Even if the marine *was* wearing his helmet, sniper rifle shots can penetrate through a whole row of enemies; going through a few inches of ceramic armor and metallic bone into the SM's brain wouldn't be any harder.

At medium range, Chief doesn't have a great chance. They're both going to locate each other with similar ease, and the overwhelming close-range power of SM weapons starts to factor in.

At close range, slaughter by chainsword.

Marine takes it overall, though I think Chief definitely has the edge at long range.

Thing is though, if we're going to give the Chief access to his full range of weapons we need to do the same for the marine.

SM Sniper > Halo Sniper
Missile Launcher > Rocket Launcher
Lascannon > Spartan Laser
Heavy Bolter > Ripped-off Turret
Bolter > Assault Rifle, SMG, or Battle Rifle
Plasma Gun > Plasma Rifle (though to be fair, the gun could overheat)
SM Plasma Pistol > Halo Plasma Pistol
Bolt Pistol > Pistol
Chainsword/Powersword/Lightning Claws > Energy Sword
Powerfist/Thunderhammer > Gravhammer (although the slowness might be an issue)
Flamer = Flamethrower (though prometheum might actually burn hotter, I don't know)

Yeah, Chief is unfortunately kind of screwed. Firstly, I can only think of a few guns he might have that would actually do much to the Marine, mostly the rockets, laser, and sniper. Unfortunately, the Marine also has a superior equivalent to all of these. The Chief's sniper lacks the stopping power to take down the Marine in a single shot (it's designed for penetration, meaning it has poor terminal ballistics), the laser takes too long to fire, and the rockets are too slow and don't have a guarantee of killing the Marine in a single shot unless it hits the head (SMs are tough). And close up he's totally, totally screwed.

And lets not even bring vehicles into this. I don't think Landraider vs. Scorpion would be very pretty...

[Thrawn183]

Well, considering that in the first version of his suit the master chief has deflected incoming missiles with his hands, he might actually have an advantage in a rocket launcher vs missile launcher fight.

[loopy]

Well, considering that in the first version of his suit the master chief has deflected incoming missiles with his hands, he might actually have an advantage in a rocket launcher vs missile launcher fight.

The trick is to turn Jason Statham or Jackie Chan into the Master Chief. Then he'd be able to deflect bolter fire with dinner trays or umbrellas.

[Gorgondantess]

I think that's an exaggeration, though Space Marines are very good.

Naaaah, I read it in one of the 40k PnP books. I'm pretty sure that's canon.

[Selrahc]

SM Sniper > Halo Sniper

Doubt it. Halo snipers are at least as effective as 40k ones and in fact seem to perform generally at a rather better level.


Missile Launcher > Rocket Launcher

Probably agreed here. I'd put the halo rocket launcher as a better anti troop weapon but it isn't all that good as a tank killer.


Lascannon > Spartan Laser

No way. Lascannons are very good but a spartan laser will massively overkill tanks. This is one area where Halo wins hands down.


Heavy Bolter > Ripped-off Turret

Yes. But it would depend on what you need it for. The halo turret has a much higher rate of fire, and it would in genreal be fairly close.


Bolter > Assault Rifle, SMG, or Battle Rifle

Yes. Although I'd say the closest Halo analogue to the bolter is actually the brute shot which is fairly comparable.


Plasma Gun > Plasma Rifle (though to be fair, the gun could overheat)
SM Plasma Pistol > Halo Plasma Pistol

Plasma tech in Halo seems generally pretty weak. I'd say the Fuel Rod is a fairly good equivalent to the plasma cannon though, and might be superior due to its rapid fire.


Bolt Pistol > Pistol

Yep.


Chainsword/Powersword/Lightning Claws > Energy Sword

A chainsword clearly isn't equal to an energy sword. A power sword clearly is equal. Lightning claws are more brutal but have a much shorter reach.


Powerfist/Thunderhammer > Gravhammer (although the slowness might be an issue)

The Gravhammer actually seems like an exact equivalent to the Thunderhammer. Both are slightly ponderous and create crackling energy explosions on impact easily breaking whatever they hit. Both can smash a tank pretty easily.


Flamer = Flamethrower (though prometheum might actually burn hotter, I don't know)

40k flamers seem a lot more portable.


Is this fight between marine's as portrayed in the fluff or on the tabletop? If i remember correctly there was an article in the 40k magazine that had the stats for marines as they are portrayed in the fluff and they were hilarious.

The article was a jokey tongue in cheek thing. It contained rules for stunt doubles for example, which have never appeared in the fluff of the game. :smalltongue:

[Texas_Ben]

SM Sniper > Halo Sniper
Missile Launcher > Rocket Launcher
Lascannon > Spartan Laser
Heavy Bolter > Ripped-off Turret
Bolter > Assault Rifle, SMG, or Battle Rifle
Plasma Gun > Plasma Rifle (though to be fair, the gun could overheat)
SM Plasma Pistol > Halo Plasma Pistol
Bolt Pistol > Pistol
Chainsword/Powersword/Lightning Claws > Energy Sword
Powerfist/Thunderhammer > Gravhammer (although the slowness might be an issue)
Flamer = Flamethrower (though prometheum might actually burn hotter, I don't know)

Also:
Plasma Cannon > Fuel Rod Gun

[Texas_Ben]

No way. Lascannons are very good but a spartan laser will massively overkill tanks. This is one area where Halo wins hands down.

You need to keep in mind the disparity between Halo tanks and 40k tanks. A scorpion is to a leman russ what a Mark 1 is to an Abrams. Lascannon is designed to combat 40k tanks, which are over 9000.

[warty goblin]

Doubt it. Halo snipers are at least as effective as 40k ones and in fact seem to perform generally at a rather better level.

The semi-auto functionality of the Halo SR is an advantage. Whether or not it could penetrate and do significant damage is another matter. Sure it can go through two people, but that's not necessarily a sign of a good bullet. The ones that hit one person and cause them to completely disintegrate are generally preferable.


Probably agreed here. I'd put the halo rocket launcher as a better anti troop weapon but it isn't all that good as a tank killer.
Although the Halo rocket launcher does have a two round magazine, which is a bit of an advantage.


No way. Lascannons are very good but a spartan laser will massively overkill tanks. This is one area where Halo wins hands down.
Against Halo tanks. Which are pathetic. 75mm main cannon, really poor profile, unnecessary surface area, and generally nonsensical design.


Yes. But it would depend on what you need it for. The halo turret has a much higher rate of fire, and it would in genreal be fairly close.
The Halo turret is basically the gun from the back of a Warthog right? According to my Halo: Combat Evolved manual, that puts it at 12.7mm, or .50Cal AA gun. So it probably shoots Armor Piercing Incendiaries. The heavy bolter fire 1.00cal rounds that basically do the same thing. That's not much of a contest. If anything, the turret is closer in power to a normal bolter than a heavy bolter.


Yes. Although I'd say the closest Halo analogue to the bolter is actually the brute shot which is fairly comparable.
My understanding is that the brute shot fires much lower velocity rounds that don't have significant armor penetrating ability.


Plasma tech in Halo seems generally pretty weak. I'd say the Fuel Rod is a fairly good equivalent to the plasma cannon though, and might be superior due to its rapid fire. I once calculated out the energy per shot of a plasma rifle, and it came to about a bundle of matches.


A chainsword clearly isn't equal to an energy sword. A power sword clearly is equal. Lightning claws are more brutal but have a much shorter reach.
A chainsword is indeed probably behind an energy sword, but I'd actually rank a power sword higher, because it has significant mass. That makes it harder to parry than the rather insubstantial energy sword. It's layout and design is also superior for a human being.


The Gravhammer actually seems like an exact equivalent to the Thunderhammer. Both are slightly ponderous and create crackling energy explosions on impact easily breaking whatever they hit. Both can smash a tank pretty easily.
Hammers, is there anything they can't solve?


40k flamers seem a lot more portable. And can also be sanctified. Holy smokes!

[Yoren]

No way. Lascannons are very good but a spartan laser will massively overkill tanks. This is one area where Halo wins hands down.

The spartan laser massively overkills Halo tanks. I doubt it would do the same against a Landraider or a Leman Russ.

[AssassinKing]

Selrhac

Quote:
Lascannon > Spartan Laser

No way. Lascannons are very good but a spartan laser will massively overkill tanks. This is one area where Halo wins hands down.

You are over exagerating the splazer. The splazer may be able to destroy a halo tank, but power armor was designed to take heavy shots. So the Lazer would be lucky to even put a hole in the power armor and maybe make the marine lose his balance.
Snipers like some say halo might win, but think about the fact that the scouts are the only ones who use them in the marine army, and usually the scouts have the weaker weapons and aren't as effective in combat. The scouts do what they are called.

The hammer arguement and swords arguement. Terminators and maybe the librarians are the only ones who really use the thunder hammer. The thunder hammer is fairly heavy compaired to most weapons even to a regular tactical marine just because of length and the size and weight of it. If the master chief can wield a grav hammer with no problem then you can easily say that the thunder hammer could easily obliterate the master chief. For swords the chain sword would win because of reach and it's brutality. The best hope for swords would be the marines knife and the MC's beam sword. The knife is the length of a regular broad sword.

Let me know if there is a machine gun in halo that is bigger than a .75 cal. which is how big the bolter is. 1 burst (3-4) could take down the master chief's shield and turn him to ground beef.

[chiasaur11]

Well, that depends on the marine then. That is to say, how brainwashed he is. And whether he is a Librarian or Chaplain.

If the X-Com operative doesn't manage to brainwash that marine, then he's toast. NOT ENOUGH TIME UNITS!

Alternatively, he could just forget the psi and go straight with his heavy plasma, in which he has a 50/50 chance of killing the marine before the marine kills him.

I'd give the X-Com guy better odds. I mean, Psi score 100 means "Regularly mind controls a race of psychics who levitate, dampen enemy attacks, and make highly trained soldiers with the bad luck to not be psychics shoot their best friends without hesitation at the same time." And they do it easy. From a football field away. I doubt anything short of a Grey Knight could shrug of that kind of mind whammy.

Add in the fact X-Com armor is total immune to plasma pistol fire from the front, and (assuming plasma pistol equivalence) the fact the X-Com standard weapon is a step above plasma guns which (If I recall correctly) can two shot Terminators given a bit of luck, X-Com soldier is going to take this in a walk.

[Dervag]

It doesn't really matter. Just figure out ways which one would win a fight, whether if it's a melee brawl to the death or a shootout until their brains fly out of their skull. Use facts for them both, It could help other people learn about both and it's fun to argue about it.You do remember what usually happens in cases like this, right? The facts are always at least partly debatable. How important the facts are is debatable. One guy may say "Master Chief can dodge bullets!" The other guy may say "That's impossible, there are laws of physics against being able to do it on foot, and even if it weren't impossible, the Halo novels talk about him not being able to dodge bullets here, here, and here."

Guess whether the first guy now believes that the Master Chief cannot dodge bullets.


Remember, a rank and file space marine can punch a man's head off or take a bolter shot to the face. Both without power armor.Just out of curiosity, where is that latter one written, with the bolters and the face?


Wow this debate went way off course. The fact is the marine would kick the MC's butt. He could back hand the MC and his head would fly off out in the distance. Then he will never be paid or see the shiny quarter.Likewise out of curiosity, if you already knew this, why did you ask?


Now we're just being silly. Spartan meat wouldn't get you rich. Too many additives.

(Also, I figure if this fight has a consensus, I figure we try someone else against the challenger who has a better chance. Say, Joe Q Random Psi Score 100 endgame X-Com operative.)Joe Q Random wins, thanks to both his powers and his spiky, spiky hair.


Snipers like some say halo might win, but think about the fact that the scouts are the only ones who use them in the marine army, and usually the scouts have the weaker weapons and aren't as effective in combat. The scouts do what they are called.Alternatively, scouts do the sniping because most of the Marines are all "HRUH! We are the glorious Astartes! Who needs camouflage or cover?" They view stealth, concealment, and long-range sniping as the tactics of lowly apprentices (obvious from both the Scouts' mission and the fact that Codex Marines graduate straight from the Scouts to the long range heavy weapon Devastator squads). But that doesn't mean they're right.

WH40k is a universe that unnaturally rewards and encourages heroic single combat between champions, charging into melee, that sort of thing. In a neutral universe that does not favor those things, the Marines' one real disadvantage is that they're easy to see and easy to engage from long range. And that their commanders tend to forget to wear a helmet...

Counterbalancing that is, of course, that Space Marines are enormously stronger and tougher than anything remotely human has any right to be, and that they have an average of decades of combat experience, ranging up into centuries in extreme cases.

However, talking about melee-range combat is largely irrelevant; it's not where battles are decided in real life even if it is in the grim darkness of the far future. So I think sniper-range is where the Master Chief actually has a credible chance of winning this one, especially if he's fighting a Marine from one of the dumber or more melee-centric Chapters.

[AssassinKing]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AssassinKing
Wow this debate went way off course. The fact is the marine would kick the MC's butt. He could back hand the MC and his head would fly off out in the distance. Then he will never be paid or see the shiny quarter.

Likewise out of curiosity, if you already knew this, why did you ask?

Like I said before I just want to see good arguements. In this quote I said that cause I'm all for the marines.

[Jayngfet]

People seem to be downplaying the master chiefs attributes. He can ALSO punch a mans head clean off and take a bullet to the face unarmored. Fluff wise he can beat the speed limit on foot and shoot down anyone at just about any distance with any given gun. I think it was mentioned the last time this came up that he is in fact a bit faster than a space marine on foot and he actually uses Camouflage, so he's got that going for him.

[warty goblin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AssassinKing
Wow this debate went way off course. The fact is the marine would kick the MC's butt. He could back hand the MC and his head would fly off out in the distance. Then he will never be paid or see the shiny quarter.

Likewise out of curiosity, if you already knew this, why did you ask?

Like I said before I just want to see good arguements. In this quote I said that cause I'm all for the marines.
You know, we have this thing called a quote feature on this board. Its accessed by clicking the big brown Quote button towards the bottom of a given post. Doing so copies the quoted post, wraps it in [quote] tags, tells the reader whom you are quoting, and provides a built in link back to the original post. I suggest using it, as it would make your replies much easier to read.

[AssassinKing]

I know more about the marines than the MC and know hardly anything about the MC, I've seen other forums talking about this arguement, and others say that the marine can easily out run the MC. If the fluff says he is accurate enough to take an enemy down while moving why is he so inaccurate in the vidya game.

[Tavar]

I know more about the marines than the MC and know hardly anything about the MC, I've seen other forums talking about this arguement, and others say that the marine can easily out run the MC. If the fluff says he is accurate enough to take an enemy down while moving why is he so inaccurate in the vidya game.

Why are marines so weak in the tabletop? Gameplay-story separation.

[AssassinKing]

You know, we have this thing called a quote feature on this board. Its accessed by clicking the big brown Quote button towards the bottom of a given post. Doing so copies the quoted post, wraps it in [quote] tags, tells the reader whom you are quoting, and provides a built in link back to the original post. I suggest using it, as it would make your replies much easier to read.

Yeah I know but I wanted to quote a certain part not the whole thing.

[Tavar]

Then you can delete the parts you don't want.

[AssassinKing]

Why are marines so weak in the tabletop? Gameplay-story separation.

It's not that they are weak, it depends on the roles that you get or the luck you get on the roles, like I lost a squad of assault terminators to IG with bayonets cause I roled bad. Other races rely on many attacks to win or actual strategy. They also wanted to balance the game.

[Selrahc]

The spartan laser massively overkills Halo tanks. I doubt it would do the same against a Landraider or a Leman Russ.

Possibly not, but it does still take a massive leap up from the rest of Halo's weapons. The Spartan Laser is really powerful, and I'd ask on what grounds a lascannon could possibly be considered more powerful.



You are over exagerating the splazer. The splazer may be able to destroy a halo tank, but power armor was designed to take heavy shots. So the Lazer would be lucky to even put a hole in the power armor and maybe make the marine lose his balance.

Uhhh... that is kind of a ridiculous argument. Power armour is not invulnerable.


The Halo turret is basically the gun from the back of a Warthog right? According to my Halo: Combat Evolved manual, that puts it at 12.7mm, or .50Cal AA gun. So it probably shoots Armor Piercing Incendiaries. The heavy bolter fire 1.00cal rounds that basically do the same thing. That's not much of a contest. If anything, the turret is closer in power to a normal bolter than a heavy bolter.

But a lot quicker at shooting. Heavy bolters aren't actually particularly fast firing. Against a marine a Heavy Bolter would be a better weapon, against lighter troops a turret would probably do the job more effectively.


but I'd actually rank a power sword higher, because it has significant mass.

Yes alright. Good point.



The hammer arguement and swords arguement. Terminators and maybe the librarians are the only ones who really use the thunder hammer.

Go and look at the front of Daemonhunters codex. An inquisitor in power armour is wielding a thunder hammer. They are in fact one of the primary weapons of the Malleus inquisitors.

A malleus inquisitor in power armour is most definitely not equal to Master Chief in raw physical strength.

Looking at RPG material and Thunder Hammers can be wielded by characters entirely without strength enhancement.


The best hope for swords would be the marines knife and the MC's beam sword. The knife is the length of a regular broad sword.

Master chief's energy sword is more normally wielded by elites, who are about the same height as space marines. The weapons won't be any longer for the Space Marines. The combat daggers definitely aren't the size of a broadsword. For that scaling to be accurate a Space Marine must be over 10' tall and they are actually around 7 and a half to 8 and a half feet tall.



Hammers, is there anything they can't solve?

Possibly world peace? Although I suppose if you hit enough people...

[Tavar]

It's not that they are weak, it depends on the roles that you get or the luck you get on the roles, like I lost a squad of assault terminators to IG with bayonets cause I roled bad. Other races rely on many attacks to win or actual strategy.
Not my point. In the Game, you have about 1 marine for 2 guardsmen. In the fluff, it should be at least 5 times that, probably more. But the game is a game, not an accurate representation of the fluff.

[AssassinKing]

Not my point. In the Game, you have about 1 marine for 2 guardsmen. In the fluff, it should be at least 5 times that, probably more. But the game is a game, not an accurate representation of the fluff.

Oh god no. Not even close.

[Tavar]

Oh god no. Not even close.

What do you mean?

[The Glyphstone]

Which is why the Movie Marines article was so awesome. Especially since it wasn't even a representation of Marines in fluff, but a representation of Marines in in-universe propaganda films (Hence stuff like Stunt Doubles).

[AssassinKing]

Uhhh... that is kind of a ridiculous argument. Power armour is not invulnerable.








Go and look at the front of Daemonhunters codex. An inquisitor in power armour is wielding a thunder hammer. They are in fact one of the primary weapons of the Malleus inquisitors.

A malleus inquisitor in power armour is most definitely not equal to Master Chief in raw physical strength.

Looking at RPG material and Thunder Hammers can be wielded by characters entirely without strength enhancement.



Master chief's energy sword is more normally wielded by elites, who are about the same height as space marines. The weapons won't be any longer for the Space Marines. The combat daggers definitely aren't the size of a broadsword. For that scaling to be accurate a Space Marine must be over 10' tall and they are actually around 7 and a half to 8 and a half feet tall.





The marine's combat knife is the size of a broad sword, no exageration. Marines can grow more than 8 ft infact that's their average. I have never seen a daemon hunter codex so I wouldn't know about that, my point about that is the fact that it's really heavy for an average marine, and in rpg's they probably threw it in there so people can actually use them. If your saying a regular guy from an rpg campaign can wield it without any bonuses why don't they give the imperial guard a lot of them.

[The Glyphstone]

The marine's combat knife is the size of a broad sword, no exageration. Marines can grow more than 8 ft infact that's their average. I have never seen a daemon hunter codex so I wouldn't know about that, my point about that is the fact that it's really heavy for an average marine, and in rpg's they probably threw it in there so people can actually use them. If your saying a regular guy from an rpg campaign can wield it without any bonuses why don't they give the imperial guard a lot of them.

Because they're probably ridiculously expensive? Guardsmen aren't meant to be individually effective, that's why there's OVER NINE THOUSAND (TRILLION) of them. It's a wargear option for human inquisitors in the DH codex too, not just the RPG books.

[AssassinKing]

What do you mean?

1 single marine is way stronger than 2 IG, depending on the chapter 2 companies could take over almost half of a smaller planet.

[Tavar]

If your saying a regular guy from an rpg campaign can wield it without any bonuses why don't they give the imperial guard a lot of them.

Expenses? Difficult to create? I'd assume that it's the same reason Eldar don't give everyone power swords.


1 single marine is way stronger than 2 IG, depending on the chapter 2 companies could take over almost half of a smaller planet.

Right. That's what's called the fluff. What's the Table Top gameplay mechanics say?

[Dervag]

It's not that they are weak, it depends on the roles that you get or the luck you get on the roles, like I lost a squad of assault terminators to IG with bayonets cause I roled bad. Other races rely on many attacks to win or actual strategy. They also wanted to balance the game.Think about the point values. Individual tactical marines are worth about 18 points; individual Imperial guardsmen are worth 6. Thus, according to Games Workshop, on the tabletop one tactical marine is worth about three normal soldiers.

And yet the Space Marine codex implies that the ratio is at least one to ten: "Give me a hundred Space Marines or a thousand normal troops." The novels raise the stakes even more; they imply that one Marine is worth dozens of normal soldiers, possibly even hundreds.

So it's not a question of Space Marines being weak. It's a question of them being not as strong in gameplay as they are advertised to be... and rightly so, because if Marines were as tough on the tabletop as they are in the books, then a 1500-point army worth of them would have about ten to fifteen models. Boring.

Likewise, Master Chief may not be as tough in gameplay as he is advertised to be. At which point we have to ask: which consistent standard do we apply? Gameplay, or advertisement in the novels and manuals?

[AssassinKing]

Because they're probably ridiculously expensive? Guardsmen aren't meant to be individually effective, that's why there's OVER NINE THOUSAND (TRILLION) of them. It's a wargear option for human inquisitors in the DH codex too, not just the RPG books.

Thunder hammers can't be too expensive if they could be given to probably more than half the terminators in a single chapter. DH, Im not saying they can't take it, My point was that it was heavier by length and weight.

[Texas_Ben]

Master chief's energy sword is more normally wielded by elites, who are about the same height as space marines. The weapons won't be any longer for the Space Marines. The combat daggers definitely aren't the size of a broadsword. For that scaling to be accurate a Space Marine must be over 10' tall and they are actually around 7 and a half to 8 and a half feet tall.


7-8 feet tall... without power armour. With power armor, they are significantly larger.

As to fluff marines vs. tabletop marines: In one book, 5 chaos marines eliminate almost an entire cult which was holding an artifact or something that they wanted. A cult consisting of several hundred. Wielding lasguns, which are significantly more powerful than projectile weapons.

[Texas_Ben]

Likewise, Master Chief may not be as tough in gameplay as he is advertised to be. At which point we have to ask: which consistent standard do we apply? Gameplay, or advertisement in the novels and manuals?
Actually, the chief is significantly stronger in the game than he is in the fluff. The books try to maintain a semblance of realism, which means his shields can only take 2-3 hits, and they, and his suit, takes damage over time.

[AssassinKing]

Think about the point values. Individual tactical marines are worth about 18 points; individual Imperial guardsmen are worth 6. Thus, according to Games Workshop, on the tabletop one tactical marine is worth about three normal soldiers.

And yet the Space Marine codex implies that the ratio is at least one to ten: "Give me a hundred Space Marines or a thousand normal troops." The novels raise the stakes even more; they imply that one Marine is worth dozens of normal soldiers, possibly even hundreds.

So it's not a question of Space Marines being weak. It's a question of them being not as strong in gameplay as they are advertised to be... and rightly so, because if Marines were as tough on the tabletop as they are in the books, then a 1500-point army worth of them would have about ten to fifteen models. Boring.

Likewise, Master Chief may not be as tough in gameplay as he is advertised to be. At which point we have to ask: which consistent standard do we apply? Gameplay, or advertisement in the novels and manuals?

That takes me towards the start of the thread, IDC about the standards just find a way to make a good arguement between the MC and the Marines.

[Tavar]

Thunder hammers can't be too expensive if they could be given to probably more than half the terminators in a single chapter. DH, Im not saying they can't take it, My point was that it was heavier by length and weight.

Just like terminator armor can't be too expensive if it's...oh wait, those are a small, elite body. Yes, they can be that expensive.

[Jahkaivah]

Heh, when I read the title I imagined this:

Master Chief: So... I'm up against a Space Marine huh... alright then, show me this loser so I can show him his ass.

Referee: It's you.

Master Chief: Wait what?

Referee: Your a space marine, the same space marine whom is your competitor, you are your own enemy.

Master Chief: But...

Referee: Right, let's make this a clean fight, ready GO!

Master Chief: *Promptly kills himself*

[warty goblin]

Actually, the chief is significantly stronger in the game than he is in the fluff. The books try to maintain a semblance of realism, which means his shields can only take 2-3 hits, and they, and his suit, takes damage over time.

MC might be more durable, but brings a hell of a lot less to the table in terms of options. In game he can walk, crouch, and jump. That's it. He can't run, go prone, lean, or do a lot of other things you would expect a soldier to be capable of. I've played games featuring completely unaugmented humans who outperform videogame Chief significantly in terms of battlefield flexibility

[AssassinKing]

Ok suppose it is really expensive you can still give more to like seargents or any hq.

[The Glyphstone]

That takes me towards the start of the thread, IDC about the standards just find a way to make a good arguement between the MC and the Marines.

The problem is that there really isn't. MC is just so horribly outmatched in any comparative venue that to even have a fighting chance, he needs almost all the variables stacked in his favor.

Under these guidelines, a 'good argument' is 'MC in full armor and max powerups plus overshield with all weapons versus an unarmored Space Marine Scout with a rusted butter knife'. And while that's definitely in MC's favor, it's not a total mismatch if they can get to close range...the Scout is pretty tough, and I think they can still spit acid - not sure when that implant goes in.
Actually, scratch that. Gotta be a pretty wuss Space Marine to need a butter knife.:smallsmile:

[chiasaur11]

Heh, when I read the title I imagined this:

Master Chief: So... I'm up against a Space Marine huh... alright then, show me this loser so I can show him his ass.

Referee: It's you.

Master Chief: Wait what?

Referee: Your a space marine, the same space marine whom is your competitor, you are your own enemy.

Master Chief: But...

Referee: Right, let's make this a clean fight, ready GO!

Master Chief: *Promptly kills himself*


That's just silly.

The Chief is a Navy man.

[Tavar]

True. Specifically, he's in Navel Intelligence.

[AssassinKing]

LOL Master Chief is a seaman.

[AssassinKing]

The problem is that there really isn't. MC is just so horribly outmatched in any comparative venue that to even have a fighting chance, he needs almost all the variables stacked in his favor.

Under these guidelines, a 'good argument' is 'MC in full armor and max powerups plus overshield with all weapons versus an unarmored Space Marine Scout with a rusted butter knife'. And while that's definitely in MC's favor, it's not a total mismatch if they can get to close range...the Scout is pretty tough, and I think they can still spit acid - not sure when that implant goes in.
Actually, scratch that. Gotta be a pretty wuss Space Marine to need a butter knife.:smallsmile:

If you had a good imagination you could come up with different ways for the master chief to win.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, we should probably avoid gameplay and stick to fluff, otherwise we'll have a MC that can pick up a tank with ease. At that point he could just fight the SM by picking him up and throwing him off the nearest cliff. And that just wouldn't be a fair fight for the SM.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, we should probably avoid gameplay and stick to fluff, otherwise we'll have a MC that can pick up a tank with ease. At that point he could just fight the SM by picking him up and throwing him off the nearest cliff. And that just wouldn't be a fair fight for the SM.

Although only if he could catch the marine while moving at a leisurely stroll.

[The Glyphstone]

If you had a good imagination you could come up with different ways for the master chief to win.

True. Let's take away the Scout's butter knife, amputate his arms and legs, and lock him in a plascrete box. I'm sure MC could figure out a way to win before the scout managed to spit his way out.

[Yoren]

Possibly not, but it does still take a massive leap up from the rest of Halo's weapons. The Spartan Laser is really powerful, and I'd ask on what grounds a lascannon could possibly be considered more powerful.

I'm not saying the lascannon is more powerful. It's probably of a similar power level to the spartan laser. However the lascannon doesn't obliterate landraiders, it has a good chance of damaging one, but its not one shot one kill. Since neither is demonstratively more powerful I'd assume the spartan laser would have similar results.


But a lot quicker at shooting. Heavy bolters aren't actually particularly fast firing. Against a marine a Heavy Bolter would be a better weapon, against lighter troops a turret would probably do the job more effectively.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from. It only fires 3 shots per round because of game balance and mechanics. I think its safe to assume its a standard machine gun style weapon (w/ laughably large bullets) that can lay down a steady stream of fire. A psycannon (basically an upgrade heavy bolter) is described as laying down an almost impenetrable wall of fire. Also no one's mentioned the assault cannon, which is a travesty as that thing is hilariously good.


Go and look at the front of Daemonhunters codex. An inquisitor in power armour is wielding a thunder hammer. They are in fact one of the primary weapons of the Malleus inquisitors.

A malleus inquisitor in power armour is most definitely not equal to Master Chief in raw physical strength.
Looking at RPG material and Thunder Hammers can be wielded by characters entirely without strength enhancement.

True but look at the mechanics again. Inquisitors only have 3 strength vs 4 for marines. The hammer/pf doubles it to 6 str for inquisitors and 8 for marines which is a HUGE difference given the way the system works.

Also if you want to bring the Demon Hunters into this Grey Knights would take MC apart.


On to the fluff issue. Marines are freaking crazy in the books. In the demon hunter book some 400-500 Grey Knights landed on a planet literally covered pole to pole in demons and cultists. Yes, they all died in the end, but they also killed almost everything on the planet, including dozens of greater demons, and some crazy super demon antagonist.

Marines are also 9 ft tall 500 pounds and have triply redundant internal organs and an artificial carapace that can deflect small arms embedded under their skin.

[SurlySeraph]

Wielding lasguns, which are significantly more powerful than projectile weapons.

Eh? WH40K players have nicknamed lasguns "flashlights," and there's a good reason for that. Bolters are just better, and autoguns are about equal with lasguns. Lasguns are just used more because they don't need ammo and so make for easier logistics.


The problem is that there really isn't. MC is just so horribly outmatched in any comparative venue that to even have a fighting chance, he needs almost all the variables stacked in his favor.

Under these guidelines, a 'good argument' is 'MC in full armor and max powerups plus overshield with all weapons versus an unarmored Space Marine Scout with a rusted butter knife'. And while that's definitely in MC's favor, it's not a total mismatch if they can get to close range...the Scout is pretty tough, and I think they can still spit acid - not sure when that implant goes in.
Actually, scratch that. Gotta be a pretty wuss Space Marine to need a butter knife.:smallsmile:

Nein. "MC with a sniper rifle a few hundred meters away vs. an average Battle Brother with a bolter" goes to MC, what with the two or three armor-piercing rounds to the face before the SM can get in range. Anything inside bolter range is a challenge where the SM has a chance, and anything within 20 feet or so (the range at which a normal human can get to melee range and strike with a weapon before a human can raise a weapon and fire, assuming that the SM's superhuman speed and MC's superhuman speed and reflexes cancel each other out, which may not be the case) the marine is guaranteed to win.

MC vs. a Space Marine Scout would be an interesting matchup, though. It could go in the MC's favor even in melee range, and the scout is more likely to be carrying a sniper weapon that he could conceivably match MC with. Scouts are marine recruits who have enough skill to get noticed by the chapter and enough skill to get the chapter's notice, and have undergone some training. MC's first combat mission (according to Halopedia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Chief), which I cannot believe exists) was in 2525 and the events of the games take place in 2553, so he has 28 years of combat experience. Since MC went through very intense training in his childhood and many SMs are recruited from death worlds, I think we can say their childhood training is comparable. But MC's 28 years of actual combat experience is a lot more than a scout is likely to have, and since the scout doesn't have power armor he's going to have a lot less protection and strength in melee than MC. So MC would generally win against a scout.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yeah, we should probably avoid gameplay and stick to fluff, otherwise we'll have a MC that can pick up a tank with ease. be defeated by a 1 meter tall box.

Fixed it for you.

[Jayngfet]

You peopole are grossly underestimating MC here, and his armor. The energy shield can take a hell of a lot of damage if used smartly. It's just if you stand in front of a huge plasma weapon for several seconds. This is why Spartans are fast as well as have the shield. You have to hit them for the shield to be needed. Hitting a target moving at more than 80 KPH that is shielded by both heavy armor and an energy shield is not easy. This is worse because if you miss for a few seconds in a row his shield recharges.

Meanwhile the spartan is fighting back. He's' going to be firing with any weapon he can get his hands on. Smarine armor isn't invincible, it's just incredibly tough. There is a difference.

[warty goblin]

You peopole are grossly underestimating MC here, and his armor. The energy shield can take a hell of a lot of damage if used smartly. It's just if you stand in front of a huge plasma weapon for several seconds. This is why Spartans are fast as well as have the shield. You have to hit them for the shield to be needed. Hitting a target moving at more than 80 KPH that is shielded by both heavy armor and an energy shield is not easy. This is worse because if you miss for a few seconds in a row his shield recharges.

True enough. Note however that at least in-game the Spartans are quite vulnerable to explosives, which just happens to be what bolters shoot.


Meanwhile the spartan is fighting back. He's' going to be firing with any weapon he can get his hands on. Smarine armor isn't invincible, it's just incredibly tough. There is a difference.
But with what? At least as of Combat Evolved, the only weapons he has that might work are the rocket launcher and the sniper rifle. With the first he suffers from very low ammo counts, and the need for an almost direct hit to do much damage. The sniper rifle might work, but again needs a solid hit. Everything else is worthless in this fight, and I don't think sniper rifle+ rocket launcher is exactly standard loadout. Bolters are.

[Jayngfet]

True enough. Note however that at least in-game the Spartans are quite vulnerable to explosives, which just happens to be what bolters shoot.


But with what? At least as of Combat Evolved, the only weapons he has that might work are the rocket launcher and the sniper rifle. With the first he suffers from very low ammo counts, and the need for an almost direct hit to do much damage. The sniper rifle might work, but again needs a solid hit. Everything else is worthless in this fight, and I don't think sniper rifle+ rocket launcher is exactly standard loadout. Bolters are.

So the spartan can take only two or three shots every ten seconds. Again try shooting them. It's already been said bolters aren't very rapid fire and you have to AIM. Given size differences it's likley the spartan would keep his distance.

Also you're underestimating covenant weapons. A single covanent plasma rifle apparently blasted through several layers of body armor and wounded the guy inside it. A carbine or beam rifle would likely do some damage to the armor.

[Yoren]

I'll give you the spartan is hard to hit for a normal person. But marines are genetically altered supersoldiers with targeting computers built into their suits and guns that shoot rockets. They're basically trained from childhood to shoot and fight. Also Im not sure where you get the idea that bolters don't fire quickly; they're rocket shooting assault rifles. 1 shot per round doesn't mean 1 shot fired every 3-6 secs its just an abstraction. Also if MC gets specialty weapons does the marine get w/e he wants from the armory? There's no way he can deal with a terminator w/ an iron halo (force field) cyclone missile launcher and an assault cannon.

Also they blast through armor worn by normal humans, not 9 ft tall halfton genetically engineered monstrosities wearing a thousand pounds of armor.

[warty goblin]

So the spartan can take only two or three shots every ten seconds. Again try shooting them. It's already been said bolters aren't very rapid fire and you have to AIM. Given size differences it's likley the spartan would keep his distance.
[QUOTE]
As I recall, bolters usually fire semi automatic, or I believe three shot bursts. This is exactly the fire a person wants for hitting another at reasonable distance, assuming that the recoil has significant effect on the shooter. Bolter recoil, as I recall, does. Now if you upgraded to Terminator armor, it'd be an entirely different ballgame.

[QUOTE]Also you're underestimating covenant weapons. A single covanent plasma rifle apparently blasted through several layers of body armor and wounded the guy inside it. A carbine or beam rifle would likely do some damage to the armor.
Again, I calculated the actual energy of a plasma weapon per shot direct from the source. It's not all that great, and probably wouldn't be sufficient to burn through steel, let alone the high tech ceramics* that go into a Marine's armor.

Also, Covenent weapons are not ones the Master Chief necessarily has access to. Humanity doesn't even understand how to reload them, let alone manufacture them, and I don't recall there being any Elites wandering around the battlefield. If we're giving people weapons they have no reason to be using, toss the Marine some of the Tau or Necron guns and see how things go down.



*I assume they are ceramics from the name bonded ceremite.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Some relevant information:

Power Weapons (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_weapon#Imperial) (Does not mention Power Swords, but they exist)
Chainsword (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chainsword)

Autogun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Autogun) (Battle rifle, assault rifle, etc.)
Boltgun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Boltgun)
Heavy Bolter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Heavy_bolter)
Plasma Gun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_Gun) (probably equal to Covanant weaponry)
Meltagun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Meltagun)
Lascannon (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lascannon) (probably equal in power to the Spartan Laser)
Plasma Cannon (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_cannon)

Krak Grenades (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Krak_Grenades)
Meltabomb (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Melta_Bombs)

Power Armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour)
Iron Halo (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Halo)



Also they blast through armor worn by normal humans, not 9 ft tall halfton genetically engineered monstrosities wearing a thousand pounds of armor.
The average height of a space marine has grown from 7 ft to 8 ft to 9 ft over the course of the thread.

Granted, they are 7 ft without armor, and closer to 8 or 9 feet with... but still.

[Krrth]

Couple of things to point out: While the Lasgun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun) is indeed referred to as a "Flashlight", it is actually a rather nasty weapon. It's just weak compared to other 40k weapons.

Bolt weapons (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolt_Weapons) can be semi-automatic or fully automatic. Space Marine bolters are most definatly fully automatic.

Powered armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour): The Space Marine armor is, unlike the miniatures and pictures, worn with a helmet.

As for Space Marine scouts (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scouts), they have all the implants except the black carapace.

I don't know how that stacks up against MC, but I hope it helps to give a basis for comparison.

edit: Vindicared!

[SandyCaesar]

Actually, it might not be as entirely one-sided as you guys might imagine.

True, in terms of raw power the Chief is very much outclassed. We're talking 38,000 years of technological advances, after all. 7.62mm AR versus 20mm handheld cannon can only end one way...in a head-to-head slugging match. And therein lies the rub. In an arena-style match, the Marine would win almost instantly. But if you include other factors, the Chief gets a few good points in his favor.

First and foremost, mindset. Space Marines have a significant disadvantage, in that they succumb to "honor before reason" quite a lot. I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the SPARTAN-IIs; nevertheless, from what I know of them, the standard Space Marine tactic seems to be an outright charge. Unconventional weapons and tactics--at the very least, manning captured enemy weapons--are unheard-of: after all, if the Machine Spirit isn't properly sanctified, you can't use it in the Holy Forces of the Imperium! The SPARTAN forces have no such inhibitions, and in the fluff "unconventional tactics" are their forte. Take the raid on the Unyielding Hierophant in First Strike. It's hard to imagine Space Marines carrying out such a raid; in particular, it seems likely that they would challenge the entire Covenant force and eventually get overwhelmed by the combined resources of the fleet, as opposed to a successful stealth-and-deception-based sabotage mission (which was carried out by the Spartans). That kind of attitude is a disadvantage for the Marine, and a plus for the Chief; in real combat, tactics are important, and the Chief has an advantage there. I can see easily see the Chief setting up sniping ambushes and raids that would be difficult for the straight-slugging Space Marine to counter.

After that, there lies another factor: as pointed out above, the vulnerability to plasma fire. In the Halo universe, Covenant plasma weaponry is very common; in the Warhammer 40k universe, they are not, at least in the Imperium. If we go by the games, two or three plasma hits that can kill a Marine would only drain the Chief's shields. If the Chief has access to Covenant plasma weaponry, the balance may shift to his favor; without it, the firepower advantage lies with the Marine. If the Chief has access to plasma weapons (and in the Halo universe they are everywhere), it is very likely he will use them. If the Space Marine has access to Tau or Necron weaponry, however, I doubt he would use them unless he had no alternative, no matter what advantage it might afford him--the Honor mindset again. On the other hand, the relative power of Warhammer and Halo plasma weapons may be significantly different, making this point debatable.

Finally, the Chief has one point in his favor that has no Space Marine counterpart: the ability to carry around an AI, or "Machine Spirit" as the Marine would call it, specifically Cortana. Technology is very much a known factor for the Chief, but for the Space Marines technology is something to be worshipped from afar, at least until the tech-priests can get there with their sacred oils. The ramifications of this can vary: it's conceivable that Cortana (or some other UNSC smart-AI) has the ability to play serious hell with the Space Marine armor's software, such as it is. Even if she can't hack into the Marine's armor directly, she can provide support--for instance, homing in on and jamming the Marine's radio transmissions. Though she would not be much use in a scripted arena fight, she could provide a critical intelligence/electronic warfare edge in a real-combat scenario.

Summary: in an arena battle, the fight would be one-sided in favor of the Space Marine, since none of the Chief's advantages can really come into play (with the possible exception of plasma weaponry). On a realistic battlefield, complete with terrain, the Chief has a number of equalizers: his tactical mindset as opposed to the Marine's honor-above-all mantra; his energy shields and plasma weapons, which the Marine is vulnerable to; and his ability to use AI help, which has no Imperium counterpart. These might or might not offset the Marine's far-superior speed, armor, and firepower, but they do mean that on a tactics-oriented battlefield, the conclusion is not as foregone as it would appear.

[SurlySeraph]

But with what? At least as of Combat Evolved, the only weapons he has that might work are the rocket launcher and the sniper rifle. With the first he suffers from very low ammo counts, and the need for an almost direct hit to do much damage. The sniper rifle might work, but again needs a solid hit. Everything else is worthless in this fight, and I don't think sniper rifle+ rocket launcher is exactly standard loadout. Bolters are.

Plasma weapons, grenades, and plasma grenades. Battle rifle shots to the head could be effective, especially if they hit the marine's eyes, respirator, or neck, though perfect headshots while circle-strafting around the marine might be difficult to pull off.

Personally, I think a good comparison for this battle in Halo terms is MC vs. a faster and faster-reacting Hunter with a Covenant carbine instead of a fuel rod gun. MC could use stealth and range effectively for a quick kill with minimal effort, would have more trouble at medium range due to greater difficulty avoiding attacks and being spotted, and would be in a lot of trouble at close range.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But keep in mind that your average Codex Astartes marine will have spent the start of his career as a scout. He's not going to be unstealthy, or unfamiliar with the concept of sniping.


I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the SPARTAN-IIs; nevertheless, from what I know of them, the standard Space Marine tactic seems to be an outright charge.

Depends on the chapter. The Blood Angels (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Angels) would do so, but definitely not for the Raven Guard (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raven_Guard). The Codex Astartes has a good bit to say about stealth, if memory serves.



After that, there lies another factor: as pointed out above, the vulnerability to plasma fire. In the Halo universe, Covenant plasma weaponry is very common; in the Warhammer 40k universe, they are not, at least in the Imperium.
Plasma Pistol (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_pistol)
Plasma Gun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_gun)
Plasma Cannon (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_cannon)
Plasma Destroyer (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_destroyer)
Plasma Blastgun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_blastgun)
Plasma Destructor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_destructor)
Plasma Annihilator (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_annihilator)
Deathstrike Warhead

Plasma weapons among other races:

Eldar:
Starcannon
Tau:
Pulse Pistol
Pulse Rifle
Pulse Carbine
Burst Cannon
Plasma Rifle

Tyranids:
Bio-plasma

Note: Tau and Eldar plasma weaponry are less powerful than Imperial plasma weapons, but don't explode as often.

[Krrth]

Some of those advantages are entirely situational. By that I mean they are only an advantage outside the 40k universe (which is most likely where this match is taking place, but it still needs to be mentioned) A.I.'s have a disturbing tendency to go insane and be possessed be Chaos in 40k.

Most Marines have no "honor" issues. In fact, they are designed as a strike force, in and out. Only a few chapters do the whole "stand up and fight like a man" bit. Most will go straight for their targets, true. Usually over the smoking remains of anything in the way.

Don't count on Corona seriously disrupting the suits. Those things are designed to be hardened against just that sort of thing.


edit: Please note that ALL space marines, with the exception of the...space wolves, I believe, start as scouts. They are ALL familiar with sniping. They also wear helmets.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Too slow. Too slow.

And yes I am.

[Krrth]

Too slow. Too slow.

.....You're a Psyker, aren't you?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Responded to retroactively.

[SurlySeraph]

But keep in mind that your average Codex Astartes marine will have spent the start of his career as a scout. He's not going to be unstealthy, or unfamiliar with the concept of sniping.

Oh, certainly he'd be familiar with the concept. But would he believe that a Sniper could instantly kill one so glorious as him, take all necessary precautions against sniping, and use stealth from the start of the battle to avoid being one-shotted? More importantly, would a 9-foot-tall half-ton enormous-pauldroned sword-waving marine in brightly colored armor be capable of using stealth? Master Chief takes out Elites and Grunts with active camouflage fairly regularly, and I don't know about the books but in-game he can certainly find them before they attack. With the possible exception of the Night Lords, I don't think an average Marine could escape MC's notice. I grant that the Marine would likely go for cover quickly and effectively if he saw MC and recognized that he had a sniper rifle, but if the two start out unaware of each other's position in a relatively open environment (or even in a jungle or forest) I think MC would have a pretty big edge.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Oh, certainly he'd be familiar with the concept. But would he believe that a Sniper could instantly kill one so glorious as him, take all necessary precautions against sniping, and use stealth from the start of the battle to avoid being one-shotted?
Yes.


More importantly, would a 9-foot-tall half-ton enormous-pauldroned sword-waving marine in brightly colored armor be capable of using stealth?
We haven't determined what the SM is wearing. Raven Guard and Dark angles, for example, go about in much darker armor.


Master Chief takes out Elites and Grunts with active camouflage fairly regularly, and I don't know about the books but in-game he can certainly find them before they attack. With the possible exception of the Night Lords, I don't think an average Marine could escape MC's notice.
Again, Raven Guard.


I grant that the Marine would likely go for cover quickly and effectively if he saw MC and recognized that he had a sniper rifle, but if the two start out unaware of each other's position in a relatively open environment (or even in a jungle or forest) I think MC would have a pretty big edge.

Eldar and Tau are have lots of snipers (Rangers and Pathfinders respectively), but this doesn't seem to have the kind of effect you're talking about.

If DoW2 counts, the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu4ABhVd28U) for the game shows SM sneaking up on Eldar, getting ambushed and sniped, and coming out ahead.

Keep an eye out for the Dreadnought. It's surprisingly stealthy.

[SandyCaesar]

If I remember, plasma weapons in the Imperium are relatively rare and unreliable (not talking about other races). Most Astartes units wouldn't be so equipped, even if there are a profusion of types. Against a so-equipped unit, that advantage for the Chief would be negated.

So the Marine tactics in questions would largely depend on the Chapter...okay. Then against a guerrilla-focused marine unit (Raven Guard, Space Wolf Scouts), the Chief wouldn't have much of a chance; against a unit like the Blood Angels or the Black Templars, more so. The advantages may be situational, but combat is a very situational thing.

Regarding the DoW2 trailer: the Eldar ambush wasn't all that effective, and their tactics left a bit to be desired; still, that was an effective SM parry. The counterexample is the original DoW trailer, where an entire Marine unit gets up out of their trenches (where they'd been doing quite well) and charges into the teeth of the Ork defenses, getting slaughtered nearly to a man. It would seem that the concept of tactics is a bit iffy: sometimes they use it (DoW2), sometimes not (DoW). But if we're talking one-on-one, the Marines did take the first hit.

[Talkkno]

If DoW2 counts, the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu4ABhVd28U) for the game shows SM sneaking up on Eldar, getting ambushed and sniped, and coming out ahead.

Keep an eye out for the Dreadnought. It's surprisingly stealthy.

That trailer is pretty stupid though, a single Farseer should been able to fry all the Marines easily, and the Eldar are moving way too slow and theres no way that captian could have surived the lightning that instantly fried the battle brother next to him.:smallyuk:

[Talkkno]

If I remember, plasma weapons in the Imperium are relatively rare and unreliable (not talking about other races). Most Astartes units wouldn't be so equipped, even if there are a profusion of types. Against a so-equipped unit, that advantage for the Chief would be negated.

Thats just GRIM DARK falvoring, hell hive scum on Nercomanda come equipped with plasma guns and Imperial Guard uses them commonly as heavy weapons.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If I remember, plasma weapons in the Imperium are relatively rare and unreliable (not talking about other races). Most Astartes units wouldn't be so equipped, even if there are a profusion of types. Against a so-equipped unit, that advantage for the Chief would be negated.
In-universe, plasma weapons are described as being temperamental and the technology to manufacture them has become rather obscure for the Imperium in the middle of there history than later in there history became more common again. and because of this, plasma weapons find regular use throughout the armies of the Imperium
-WH40K Wiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Imperium)


That trailer is pretty stupid though, a single Farseer should been able to fry all the Marines easily, and the Eldar are moving way too slow and theres no way that captian could have surived the lightning that instantly fried the battle brother next to him.:smallyuk:
Perhaps he succeeded on his reflex save.

Incidentally, the captain is the main character for the game.



Regarding the DoW2 trailer: the Eldar ambush wasn't all that effective, and their tactics left a bit to be desired; still, that was an effective SM parry. The counterexample is the original DoW trailer, where an entire Marine unit gets up out of their trenches (where they'd been doing quite well) and charges into the teeth of the Ork defenses, getting slaughtered nearly to a man. It would seem that the concept of tactics is a bit iffy: sometimes they use it (DoW2), sometimes not (DoW). But if we're talking one-on-one, the Marines did take the first hit.

Clearly all the stupid got killed out of the chapter before DoW2

[Tavar]

Clearly all the stupid got killed out of the chapter before DoW2

Probably in the Karava campaign.

[Jayngfet]

Responding to the last page comment on SM armor being better than grunt armor.

When I talk about plasma weapons burning throuh armor I don't mean mook armor, I mean an early form of MJIOLNIR armor without a shield. Just like that right through several layers of armor, like it's cardboard. This was a pair of Jackals with a plasma rifle at best. A spartan laser would likely blast straight through SM's armor and out the other side.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Problem is, it might go both ways. SM heavy weaponry could fry the MC for all we know.

[SandyCaesar]

Perhaps, but if you give the MC a heavy weapon like the Spartan Laser you'd have to give the SM a similar heavy weapon, like a Lascannon or a melta weapon.

(Then again, it'd help the MC more than it would help the Marine, since the MC needs the firepower boost, whereas the Marine doesn't really.)

[chiasaur11]

Problem is, it might go both ways. SM heavy weaponry could fry the MC for all we know.

Hasn't that been the assumption of the pro marine side from the beginning?

[Jayngfet]

The problem is we have no actual knowledge of the terrain or weapons they can pick from, or which armors are being used.

We need an actual location, armor, and weapons for this to work.

[warty goblin]

Actually, it might not be as entirely one-sided as you guys might imagine.

True, in terms of raw power the Chief is very much outclassed. We're talking 38,000 years of technological advances, after all. 7.62mm AR versus 20mm handheld cannon can only end one way...in a head-to-head slugging match. And therein lies the rub. In an arena-style match, the Marine would win almost instantly. But if you include other factors, the Chief gets a few good points in his favor.

Agreed. In a good old fashioned Quake style deathmatch, Master Chief's going to be a lot of gibs, and not much more.


First and foremost, mindset. Space Marines have a significant disadvantage, in that they succumb to "honor before reason" quite a lot. I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the SPARTAN-IIs; nevertheless, from what I know of them, the standard Space Marine tactic seems to be an outright charge. Unconventional weapons and tactics--at the very least, manning captured enemy weapons--are unheard-of: after all, if the Machine Spirit isn't properly sanctified, you can't use it in the Holy Forces of the Imperium! The SPARTAN forces have no such inhibitions, and in the fluff "unconventional tactics" are their forte. Take the raid on the Unyielding Hierophant in First Strike. It's hard to imagine Space Marines carrying out such a raid; in particular, it seems likely that they would challenge the entire Covenant force and eventually get overwhelmed by the combined resources of the fleet, as opposed to a successful stealth-and-deception-based sabotage mission (which was carried out by the Spartans). That kind of attitude is a disadvantage for the Marine, and a plus for the Chief; in real combat, tactics are important, and the Chief has an advantage there. I can see easily see the Chief setting up sniping ambushes and raids that would be difficult for the straight-slugging Space Marine to counter.
Marines do seem to ascribe to the occasional bit of idiocy. On the other hand, a lot of these seem to have been cases where they were seriously screwed anyway. The Ultramarine 1st Company fought to pretty much the last bullet against the Tyrannids rather than run at Maccrage, but it was their homeworld and options were sort of thin on the ground. I can't think of too many other examples of hopeless last stands, but I'm sure somebody better versed in the lore than I can. Also, while we're noting non-desirable traits, the Chief has an annoying tendency to launch really stupid one-man assaults (see: all those times he boarded alien ships to free Keyes).


After that, there lies another factor: as pointed out above, the vulnerability to plasma fire. In the Halo universe, Covenant plasma weaponry is very common; in the Warhammer 40k universe, they are not, at least in the Imperium. If we go by the games, two or three plasma hits that can kill a Marine would only drain the Chief's shields. If the Chief has access to Covenant plasma weaponry, the balance may shift to his favor; without it, the firepower advantage lies with the Marine. If the Chief has access to plasma weapons (and in the Halo universe they are everywhere), it is very likely he will use them. If the Space Marine has access to Tau or Necron weaponry, however, I doubt he would use them unless he had no alternative, no matter what advantage it might afford him--the Honor mindset again. On the other hand, the relative power of Warhammer and Halo plasma weapons may be significantly different, making this point debatable.
I really don't think the two different weapon technologies are in any way comparable. Here's some numbers to muse upon:

Data:
My Halo: CE manual tells me that the plasma rifle fires 420-600 rounds a minute, and produces 100-150kV of power, at 2-3 dA.

Assumptions:
I'm going to use the maximum Ampurage, and the average rates of fire and voltage, for ease of calculation.
Thus we're looking at 125 kV, 3 dA, and 510 rounds per minute.

Methodology: First I calculate the power output of the device.
Volts = Watts/Ampures. k is the abbreviation for kilo, or thousand, d is the abbreviation for deci, or .1. Pluggin in gives

125,000v = W/.3A. Solving for W gives W = 37,500, so the plasma rifle produces 37,500 Watts of power. A Watt is 1 Joule/second, so over a minute the plasma rifle produces 2,250,000 Joules,.

It fires 510 shots in that time, so the energy available for each shot is 2,250,000 J/m * m/510shots = 4411.8 J/shot.

Note that this is the maximum energy available for each shot, not the actual energy of the shot. If we assume that the rifle is a jaw-dropping 80% efficient (with the remaining 20% as waste heat) the rifle can dedicate 3530J to each shot.

The plasma rifle does not seem to carry any internal material to be heated into plasma, so I'll assume it relies on external atmosphere, and this atmosphere has the same gases as that of Earth.

The atmosphere is mostly nitrogen, so I'll assume that's what the rifle is in fact heating to plasma. Nitrogen requires about 1400 kiloJoules of energy to ionize a Mole. 3540J is about .025 of that, so we're looking at around .025 Mols of once-ionized hydrogen. A Mol of Nitrogen weighs about 14 grams, so we're looking at .35 grams per projectile. This is sort of interesting, but not terribly important.

Now here's the kicker. Pure iron melts at about 1810 degrees Kelvin. It has a specific heat capacity of around 25 J/Mol*(Degrees Kelvin)*. So to melt it from room temperature of about 300 degrees Kelvin, we need to increase the temperature by 1510 degrees Kelvin. So it takes about 37,750J to melt a Mol of iron. The gun only produces 3540 per shot, and assuming the projectile strikes a flat surface, probably only about half of that energy- will actually dissipate into the target.

*This is starting from room temperature, and my calculations do not take into account the changing specific heat capacity as the temperature changes.

Doing a little unit conversion gives a melting mass of .046 grams per shot. Again, this is of plain old iron.

So yeah, the Marine should be pretty safe in his super future armor.

[ocdscale]

Don't count on Corona seriously disrupting the suits. Those things are designed to be hardened against just that sort of thing.


Actually, how advanced is electronics warfare in the 40k universe?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But it does manage to melt through early SPARTAN armor. Let us keep this in mind.


Actually, how advanced is electronics warfare in the 40k universe?

CURSE OF THE MACHINE SPIRIT!

(It exists, from mundane sources such as EMP to things such as Demonic Posession)

[warty goblin]

But it does manage to melt through early SPARTAN armor. Let us keep this in mind.
Which means that early SPARTAN armor has a pretty low heat capacity. That is more a demonstration of SPARTAN suckatude than the effectiveness of a plasma weapon against a Space Marine.

edit: I screwed up the last step. That should be .46 Mols/shot. Iron weighs about 56 grams/Mol, so it comes to 28 grams/shot. That looks impressive, until you crunch out a few more numbers and realize it's maybe 3 cubic centimeters. Still not something I'd be terribly worried about with super power armor not made from a crappy material like iron.

[SandyCaesar]

Agreed. In a good old fashioned Quake style deathmatch, Master Chief's going to be a lot of gibs, and not much more.


Marines do seem to ascribe to the occasional bit of idiocy. On the other hand, a lot of these seem to have been cases where they were seriously screwed anyway. The Ultramarine 1st Company fought to pretty much the last bullet against the Tyrannids rather than run at Maccrage, but it was their homeworld and options were sort of thin on the ground. I can't think of too many other examples of hopeless last stands, but I'm sure somebody better versed in the lore than I can. Also, while we're noting non-desirable traits, the Chief has an annoying tendency to launch really stupid one-man assaults (see: all those times he boarded alien ships to free Keyes).


I really don't think the two different weapon technologies are in any way comparable. Here's some numbers to muse upon:

Data:
My Halo: CE manual tells me that the plasma rifle fires 420-600 rounds a minute, and produces 100-150kV of power, at 2-3 dA.

Assumptions:
I'm going to use the maximum Ampurage, and the average rates of fire and voltage, for ease of calculation.
Thus we're looking at 125 kV, 3 dA, and 510 rounds per minute.

Methodology: First I calculate the power output of the device.
Volts = Watts/Ampures. k is the abbreviation for kilo, or thousand, d is the abbreviation for deci, or .1. Pluggin in gives

125,000v = W/.3A. Solving for W gives W = 37,500, so the plasma rifle produces 37,500 Watts of power. A Watt is 1 Joule/second, so over a minute the plasma rifle produces 2,250,000 Joules,.

It fires 510 shots in that time, so the energy available for each shot is 2,250,000 J/m * m/510shots = 4411.8 J/shot.

Note that this is the maximum energy available for each shot, not the actual energy of the shot. If we assume that the rifle is a jaw-dropping 80% efficient (with the remaining 20% as waste heat) the rifle can dedicate 3530J to each shot.

The plasma rifle does not seem to carry any internal material to be heated into plasma, so I'll assume it relies on external atmosphere, and this atmosphere has the same gases as that of Earth.

The atmosphere is mostly nitrogen, so I'll assume that's what the rifle is in fact heating to plasma. Nitrogen requires about 1400 kiloJoules of energy to ionize a Mole. 3540J is about .025 of that, so we're looking at around .025 Mols of once-ionized hydrogen. A Mol of Nitrogen weighs about 14 grams, so we're looking at .35 grams per projectile. This is sort of interesting, but not terribly important.

Now here's the kicker. Pure iron melts at about 1810 degrees Kelvin. It has a specific heat capacity of around 25 J/Mol*(Degrees Kelvin)*. So to melt it from room temperature of about 300 degrees Kelvin, we need to increase the temperature by 1510 degrees Kelvin. So it takes about 37,750J to melt a Mol of iron. The gun only produces 3540 per shot, and assuming the projectile strikes a flat surface, probably only about half of that energy- will actually dissipate into the target.

*This is starting from room temperature, and my calculations do not take into account the changing specific heat capacity as the temperature changes.

Doing a little unit conversion gives a melting mass of .046 grams per shot. Again, this is of plain old iron.

So yeah, the Marine should be pretty safe in his super future armor.

Now that's interesting, because in that case the Chief's armor should provide him with plenty of protection against even a Covenant plasma rifle. It doesn't, and only a few shots are needed to kill him. Therefore, we have to assume there's some other unknown-phlebotinum factor at work. (Plus, given their overheating tendencies, the rifles can't possibly be up to 80% efficient, reducing the power of the plasma charge even more. I'll trust your numbers.) It's plain counterintuitive to say that the newest marks of armor still retain the problem of low SHC, given that their enemy uses primarily thermal weaponry.

[Tavar]

That manual has long been held to be one of the more egregious examples of did not do the research. I seem to remember one weapon that couldn't light a lightbulb, much less be an actual weapon of war.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/07/master_chief_sp.jpg

There are a number of spots around the joints and neck not covered by the ceramic armor of the MC where plasma could melt and leak in.

[Winthur]

I was hoping that by Space Marine you meant "Doomguy".

But then, it's no contest. Doomguy destroyed hell.

[chiasaur11]

I was hoping that by Space Marine you meant "Doomguy".

But then, it's no contest. Doomguy destroyed hell.

Doomguy could solo 40k.

[warty goblin]

Now that's interesting, because in that case the Chief's armor should provide him with plenty of protection against even a Covenant plasma rifle. It doesn't, and only a few shots are needed to kill him. Therefore, we have to assume there's some other unknown-phlebotinum factor at work. (Plus, given their overheating tendencies, the rifles can't possibly be up to 80% efficient, reducing the power of the plasma charge even more. I'll trust your numbers.) It's plain counterintuitive to say that the newest marks of armor still retain the problem of low SHC, given that their enemy uses primarily thermal weaponry.

I agree it makes no sense. However I think a better explanation is simply a case of the writers (of both manual and novels) not crunching the numbers. Which is sort of pathetic really. I did that off of Wikipedia, and my physics background is basically one class that didn't even cover that stuff. (Addendum. This could easily mean I screwed something up, so if anybody does know this sort of physics, I'd be much obliged if you would correct any mistakes I made).


That manual has long been held to be one of the more egregious examples of did not do the research. I seem to remember one weapon that couldn't light a lightbulb, much less be an actual weapon of war.

And I would be very, very happy to redo the calculations based on a source that made the Covenant weapons behave like actual devices designed to kill. Until that happens however, I really don't have a good reason to not treat the given numbers as canon.

One explanation for this is that perhaps somebody did crunch the numbers part way to get the energy per shot and then compared that with the kinetic energy of a rifle round. There's actually not much of a discrepency between the two numbers, just a couple of Joules depending on the round. I could easily see somebody stopping the number crunching there, then come up with some nifty sounding wound descriptions based around the whole 'burning things' concept.

The problem is that a rifle doesn't damage things in the same way a heat weapon does.


http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/07/master_chief_sp.jpg

There are a number of spots around the joints and neck not covered by the ceramic armor of the MC where plasma could melt and leak in.

There is also this bit. Really, that armor offers horrible coverage.

[Jayngfet]

Which means that early SPARTAN armor has a pretty low heat capacity. That is more a demonstration of SPARTAN suckatude than the effectiveness of a plasma weapon against a Space Marine.

edit: I screwed up the last step. That should be .46 Mols/shot. Iron weighs about 56 grams/Mol, so it comes to 28 grams/shot. That looks impressive, until you crunch out a few more numbers and realize it's maybe 3 cubic centimeters. Still not something I'd be terribly worried about with super power armor not made from a crappy material like iron.

And the MJOLNIR is made from more than just armor. According to the wiki the armor is made to survive in just about any environmental condition and later versions are made with insane options in mind(such as riding on top of a spaceship like a surfboard). John 117 could literally dodge a slew of missiles on foot, ride one like a pony across a battle field, jump off before it explodes four stories up, land on his feet, scale up the building with his bare hands and walk through the flames unharmed to kill any survivors. He could do this after being starved for about a week and stuck in his suit the whole time, and be ready for his next mission almost right after.




The later version of the armor are specifically designed to defend against plasma as well. It's designed to stand against guns invented hundreds of years from now so it's not that simple to assume a bolter would instantly pierce the energy shield capable of withstanding what would melt layers of titanium, followed by a layer of thick titanium alloy that can withstand just about every conventional weapon without so much as a dent, followed by titanium nanoncomposite armor coated in a special material to disperse plasma, followed by a layer of thick body armor. Then you have to try to damage his ceramics coated bones, and after that any wounds are healed with biofoam.

Assuming you can hit the guy doing 80+kmph enough times quick enough to break the rechargeable energy shield. While he's firing back at you.


And that "horrible coverage" is actually covered by aformentioned armor designed to disperse plasma. Nice try.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Power armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour)

Power armour is fully sealed, isolating the wearer from the outside environment and protecting him from gas weapons and harsh atmospheres. It is made of ceramite (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ceramite), a form of ceramic material that conducts almost no heat, making it especially heat-resistant and effective against energy-based weapons.

[Jayngfet]

Power armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour)

Reading that entry it sounds pretty much the same as MIJOLNIR in pretty much every way except the outer plates are made of ceramite instead of titanium and the same systems are jutting out the back as an easier target.

[SandyCaesar]

At first glance through the armor data, it seems that the Chief has an advantage in maneuverability, whereas the Space Marine has the advantage in armor protection. On the other hand, this may not be true, given some of the 40k fluff.

The information regarding ceramite, however, seems to contradict the fact that Power Armor is vulnerable to plasma weaponry, which is heat-based.

[HamHam]

Space Marine wins easily. Master Chief is from an action series with what is supposed to be a reasonably "realistic" level of technology and capability. Basically, his abilities are comparable to modern ones except with some action trope exaggeration and lasers,

Space Marines are from a hellish GRIM DARK future where you can never have enough dakka. Where the laws of physics are easily broken. The sheer ridiculousness of it makes this not remotely fair.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The information regarding ceramite, however, seems to contradict the fact that Power Armor is vulnerable to plasma weaponry, which is heat-based.

Where does that come from? My knowledge of 40k comes from DoW, and plasma guns are the counter to SM, but that might be for game balance. It might also be because lasguns and bolters just aren't as powerful compared to plasma. Then it's not a case of the armor being vulnerable to plasma so much as being invulnerable to the other stuff.

[warty goblin]

And the MJOLNIR is made from more than just armor. According to the wiki the armor is made to survive in just about any environmental condition and later versions are made with insane options in mind(such as riding on top of a spaceship like a surfboard). John 117 could literally dodge a slew of missiles on foot, ride one like a pony across a battle field, jump off before it explodes four stories up, land on his feet, scale up the building with his bare hands and walk through the flames unharmed to kill any survivors. He could do this after being starved for about a week and stuck in his suit the whole time, and be ready for his next mission almost right after.

Except that, as I just demonstrated, he can't. At least can't do the burning building part.


The later version of the armor are specifically designed to defend against plasma as well. It's designed to stand against guns invented hundreds of years from now so it's not that simple to assume a bolter would instantly pierce the energy shield capable of withstanding what would melt layers of titanium, followed by a layer of thick titanium alloy that can withstand just about every conventional weapon without so much as a dent, followed by titanium nanoncomposite armor coated in a special material to disperse plasma, followed by a layer of thick body armor. Then you have to try to damage his ceramics coated bones, and after that any wounds are healed with biofoam.
Either Covenant plasma can damage the armor or it cannot. If it can, the armor is pretty crappy. From people who have read the novels, I am given to believe that the armor can be damaged by plasma. Therefore is is pretty lame stuff.

He is also, I believe, endangered by shotguns firing buckshot. Not an ordnance known for their armor piercing ability, that.


Assuming you can hit the guy doing 80+kmph enough times quick enough to break the rechargeable energy shield. While he's firing back at you.
Ability to run that fast depends entirely on the terrain. The pressures placed on the ground by a humanoid wearing several hundred pounds of armor and moving at those speeds would be immense. I simply doubt it possible to hard enough to manage that without some critical traction failures as the turf disintegrated. It's damn hard to manage that with a wheeled vehicle that has a lot more surface area, and has a more efficient means of locomotion to begin with.


And that "horrible coverage" is actually covered by aformentioned armor designed to disperse plasma. Nice try.
So if the black parts offer all this protection, what's the point of the green parts? Because full coverage armor the green material armor does not offer.

[leafman]

On the bit about the plasma round melting through the mjolnir armor, it is possible (I haven't read the story in which it happens) that the shot was an overcharged shot from a plasma pistol which has a 1.5 MV @ 2~3 dA output. I don't know how that would effect the calculations but its about 10x the maximum output of a normal shot.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ah, good catch about the plasma pistol. I forgot that the weapon could do that.

In the game, iirc, a charged plasma shot is enough to take out shields in one hit.

[Jayngfet]

Reading through the Space marine entries more thouroughly and comparing them to spartans. Just about everything SM gets save for a few more insane things(like hightened taste or poison bite) spartans also get either at birth, through augmentation, or via armor. The main difference besides Ceramics based vs Titanium based I see is that the spartan also gets reflex and speed enhancements.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Reading through the Space marine entries more thouroughly and comparing them to spartans. Just about everything SM gets save for a few more insane things(like hightened taste) spartans also get either at birth, through augmentation, or via armor. The main difference besides Ceramics based vs Titanium based I see is that the spartan also gets reflex and speed enhancements.

SM have much higher reflexes compared to normal humans.

Indeed, it is fitting that Salamanders be lacking in the way of Fast Attack, as for some inexplicable reason, they naturally have slightly slower reflexes than most Space Marines. It should be noted though, that their reflexes are still significantly faster than those of a normal human.
-Lexicanum, on the Salamanders chapter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Salamanders)

Not sure about speed, though Power Armor does enhance one's strength, and SM can go toe to toe with Eldar and Dark Eldar in melee. (See Brothers of the Snake by Abnett for details)

[Jayngfet]

Ah, good catch about the plasma pistol. I forgot that the weapon could do that.

In the game, iirc, a charged plasma shot is enough to take out shields in one hit.

Though in the game plasma worked better against shields then the actual body armor all around. A common strategy is to blast down shields with the plasma rifle then machinegun down the enemy when thats done.

[Jayngfet]

SM have much higher reflexes compared to normal humans.

I remember that, though Spartans get whole layers of armor and drug tests to go through focused solely on reflexes. The entire world is seen in bullet time to them without focusing on any particular thing.

[Yoren]

Assuming you can hit the guy doing 80+kmph enough times quick enough to break the rechargeable energy shield. While he's firing back at you.

What evidence do you have that MC movement would in anyway perturb a SM? They fight fast things all the time. I don't think i'm going that far out on a limb to say that there are tyranids, eldar, and chaos demons that are all faster than MC and the marines fight them just fine.

Also you seem to be assuming that MC can fire accurately while moving at those speeds, which seems dubious at best.

Edit: Marine are basically the top 10% of the strongest and fastest humans the chapters can find in an empire that numbers trillions of people. They are then tested and enhanced until the barest sliver are left. This leaves only the most freaking crazy dudes who then under go years of further testing, training and genetic enhancements until they are actually space marines.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I remember that, though Spartans get whole layers of armor
Power armor is layered.


and drug tests to go through focused solely on reflexes. The entire world is seen in bullet time to them without focusing on any particular thing.
SM get chemical conditioning and hypnotherpy so they can use their organs and new abilities. The specifics are a bit hazy, but it's definitely possible they get chemical conditioning for reflexes as well.

Whatever the case, they're still much, much faster than ordinary humans. This is pretty well established in canon.

[Jayngfet]

What evidence do you have that MC movement would in anyway perturb a SM? They fight fast things all the time. I don't think i'm going that far out on a limb to say that there are tyranids, eldar, and chaos demons that are all faster than MC and the marines fight them just fine.

Also you seem to be assuming that MC can fire accurately while moving at those speeds, which seems dubious at best.

Yes they can fight them, but they don't win every time and likely don't hit every time. The rechargeable shield and armor layers mean you have to hit pretty consistently.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yes they can fight them, but they don't win every time and likely don't hit every time.
But that doesn't mean their reflexes aren't as good as MC's. Just means that there is someone faster than them. Unless you've seen MC getting it on with Dark Eldar, we lack a basis for comparison.

Let's just say both have phenomenally fast reflexes and move on.


The rechargeable shield and armor layers mean you have to hit pretty consistently.
On the flip side, SM can get the Iron Halo as a reward for being badass. Availability of this relic depends on the chapter, with some handing them out more liberally than others.

[warty goblin]

Yes they can fight them, but they don't win every time and likely don't hit every time. The rechargeable shield and armor layers mean you have to hit pretty consistently.

Or hit them hard enough. I'd imagine that, say, the Halo Sniper rifle is capable of killing a SPARTAN II?

[Yoren]

Yes they can fight them, but they don't win every time and likely don't hit every time. The rechargeable shield and armor layers mean you have to hit pretty consistently.

So its a fight and not a massacre. I'm not sure how this supports your point, especially since you seem to agree that the aforementioned creatures are faster than MC.

[Jayngfet]

Power armor is layered.


SM get chemical conditioning and hypnotherpy so they can use their organs and new abilities. The specifics are a bit hazy, but it's definitely possible they get chemical conditioning for reflexes as well.

Whatever the case, they're still much, much faster than ordinary humans. This is pretty well established in canon.

So again, the armors are pretty similar with the exception MJOLNIR is made to be sleeker and move pretty damn fast.

And it's possible, but not established. On the flip side even without military training spartans would have been leagues ahead of normal humans. We see untrained Spartans kicking ass in a few stories, without agumentation they're still faster, stronger, and smarter than regular humans and immune to most drugs and diseases, in addition to a slew of other stuff. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan_1.1)

[Jayngfet]

So its a fight and not a massacre. I'm not sure how this supports your point, especially since you seem to agree that the aforementioned creatures are faster than MC.

I mean how accurately can a SM hit someting at that speed? How often would he miss? You're assuming he hits every time by virtue of being a space marine.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Or hit them hard enough. I'd imagine that, say, the Halo Sniper rifle is capable of killing a SPARTAN II?

YES!!!:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Gorrram campers gettin' in my multiplayer games....


On the flip side even without military training spartans would have been leagues ahead of normal humans. We see untrained Spartans kicking ass in a few stories, without agumentation they're still faster, stronger, and smarter than regular humans and immune to most drugs and diseases, in addition to a slew of other stuff.
You can't have untrained SM, so there can be no comparison here.

They recruit pretty vicious ten year olds to be SM though, if that means anything.

[Krrth]

So again, the armors are pretty similar with the exception MJOLNIR is made to be sleeker and move pretty damn fast.

And it's possible, but not established. On the flip side even without military training spartans would have been leagues ahead of normal humans. We see untrained Spartans kicking ass in a few stories, without agumentation they're still faster, stronger, and smarter than regular humans and immune to most drugs and diseases, in addition to a slew of other stuff. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan_1.1)

I'll see your slew of other stuff and raise you even more stuff (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine)...

[Jayngfet]

I'll see your slew of other stuff and raise you even more stuff (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine)...

Oh no, that wasn't training. That was what a spartan is BORN with. This is what they're like with no training or augmentation trying to live normal lives having never been asked to fight space monsters.

They get this too (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Augmentation_Procedures) unarmed and unarmored, not counting their years of training.

[warty goblin]

YES!!!:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Gorrram campers gettin' in my multiplayer games....

So now the question is how well something like a bolter measures up to a sniper rifle in terms of putting holes in things.

Also, I'd rather have ceramic armor than titanium armor. Ceramics can do some pretty freaky stuff in terms of hardness and heat resistance. It's more or less what they armor tanks in nowadays.



You can't have untrained SM, so there can be no comparison here.

They recruit pretty vicious ten year olds to be SM though, if that means anything.
They survived to be 10 years old in WH40K. I'm surprised they don't actually bathe in the blood of people who annoy them.

[Oslecamo]

You can't have untrained SM, so there can be no comparison here.

They recruit pretty vicious ten year olds to be SM though, if that means anything.

The Space wolves chapter won't hire anyone who hasn't been able to go trough a whole glacier filled with hungry dinossaur-sized wolves naked and bare handed.

So, yes, spartans are sissies compared to SM. Heck, Chief cannot even defeat this dude:

http://www.freewebs.com/cloud_swiftshadow/half-life_vs_halo%5B1%5D.bmp

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Oh no, that wasn't training. That was what a spartan is BORN with. This is what they're like with no training or augmentation trying to live normal lives having never been asked to fight space monsters.

They get this too (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Augmentation_Procedures) unarmed and unarmored, not counting their years of training.
But since we can't compare the two directly due to a lack of hard numbers, we can only conclude that they are much tougher than normal humans.

Let's move on.

[Jayngfet]

So now the question is how well something like a bolter measures up to a sniper rifle in terms of putting holes in things.

Also, I'd rather have ceramic armor than titanium armor. Ceramics can do some pretty freaky stuff in terms of hardness and heat resistance. It's more or less what they armor tanks in nowadays.


They survived to be 10 years old in WH40K. I'm surprised they don't actually bathe in the blood of people who annoy them.

Surviving til 10 in halo verse isn't that easy either. They took thousands of orphans and build an entire Spartain III army out of them. The III's aren't nearly as tough and die by the hundreds but they still manage to do their job fairly well.

[Jayngfet]

But since we can't compare the two directly due to a lack of hard numbers, we can only conclude that they are much tougher than normal humans.

Let's move on.

Move on to what? We've compared armor and agumentation. Lets move to training then. What age does a SM start training at again? It's like six for spartain II's.

[SandyCaesar]

The Space wolves chapter won't hire anyone who hasn't been able to go trough a whole glacier filled with hungry dinossaur-sized wolves naked and bare handed.

So, yes, spartans are sissies compared to SM. Heck, Chief cannot even defeat this dude:

http://www.freewebs.com/cloud_swiftshadow/half-life_vs_halo%5B1%5D.bmp

So you're saying that a mere Space Marine (or even a Chapter Master) can match up to the sheer awesomeness that is the One Free Man?:smalltongue:

...you know what, let's compare the Space Marine to the Master Chief, and just accept the fact that when the Gordon cometh, both shall tremble and flee in terror.

[Krrth]

Oh no, that wasn't training. That was what a spartan is BORN with. This is what they're like with no training or augmentation trying to live normal lives having never been asked to fight space monsters.

They get this too (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Augmentation_Procedures) unarmed and unarmored, not counting their years of training.

Ok, I'll try this even at the risk of being ninja'd

Ossification: Not to exceed 3%. SM's have their entire ribcage converted into a mass of plates, let alone the rest of the body. Slightly more than 3%.

Muscle enhancement: Possibly the same as SM;s, not enough data. We can call this one even I suppose.

Catalytic implant: See phase two and three.

Superconducting neurons. 300% improvement is very good. SM's react at "lightning speeds". Not sure how to compare this one.

Now, add:
1)ability to survive vacuum.
2)immune to radiation.
3)breath poison, underwater, whatever.
4)instant clotting.
5)redundant organs.
6)perfect night vision (Spartans have the same)
7)the ability to not sleep for up to 2 weeks at a time.
8)eat anything, and absorb genetic data from food.
9)immunity to poison as well as disease.
10)cannot become dizzy or motion sick.
11)Spit acid capable of dissolving metal.
12)Direct neural interface with the armor. Same as having an AI interface?


edit: I don't know about ya'll, but I've got some serious screen stretch going on here....

[chiasaur11]

So you're saying that a mere Space Marine (or even a Chapter Master) can match up to the sheer awesomeness that is the One Free Man?:smalltongue:

...you know what, let's compare the Space Marine to the Master Chief, and just accept the fact that when the Gordon cometh, both shall tremble and flee in terror.

And when the Doomguy cometh, Gordon slowly backs away, with his hands visible at all times.

Freeman didn't get a MIT diploma by being stupid.

[Oslecamo]

And when the Doomguy cometh, Gordon slowly backs away, with his hands visible at all times.

Freeman didn't get a MIT diploma by being stupid.

If the doomguy cometh, the spech merine would bow and say "Your highness, it's a blessing to my unworthy eyes to see thou in such a good shape after all that time recovering. Who do we purge today?":smalltongue:

So yes, Freeman would do well in slowly backing away.

[Jayngfet]

Ok, I'll try this even at the risk of being ninja'd

Ossification: Not to exceed 3%. SM's have their entire ribcage converted into a mass of plates, let alone the rest of the body. Slightly more than 3%.

Muscle enhancement: Possibly the same as SM;s, not enough data. We can call this one even I suppose.

Catalytic implant: See phase two and three.

Superconducting neurons. 300% improvement is very good. SM's react at "lightning speeds". Not sure how to compare this one.

Now, add:
1)ability to survive vacuum.
2)immune to radiation.
3)breath poison, underwater, whatever.
4)instant clotting.
5)redundant organs.
6)perfect night vision (Spartans have the same)
7)the ability to not sleep for up to 2 weeks at a time.
8)eat anything, and absorb genetic data from food.
9)immunity to poison as well as disease.
10)cannot become dizzy or motion sick.
11)Spit acid capable of dissolving metal.
12)Direct neural interface with the armor. Same as having an AI interface?


edit: I don't know about ya'll, but I've got some serious screen stretch going on here....

Spartan armor (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor) covers most of that. Though you got me on 1, 5, 7, 8, and 11. Though those likley won't be useful here. Unless SM didn't wear a helmet and provides a fleshy target.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Move on to what? We've compared armor and agumentation. Lets move to training then. What age does a SM start training at again? It's like six for spartain II's.

SM recruits are the toughtest warriors on the planet they come from in their age range (preteens).

Warrior cultures from feral and primitive world, as well as the gangs on hive worlds, train the kids from birth as far as I can tell.

[Talkkno]

Page 32 of Storm of Iron
"He leapt over the Marauder's fuselage and sprinted towards the molten hell of the destroyed bunker, its walls now flowing like wax across the ground.

...

Honsou leapt onto the remains of the bunker, his ironshod boot sinking into the molten rock. "
For the composition and result of the meltablast to the bunker. Assuming a 3-4 meter tall bunker like a box, with half meter thick walls, it totally masses some 57,000 to 111,000 kilograms. Assuming rocklike properties as above, you can figure ~2-2.5 MJ per kg to melt. Roughly, you'll get between 120 GJ and 280 GJ minimum from all that, but if the walls are thicker (say a meter thick) you can get ~330-420 Gigajoules.

Even then,it doesnt factor in inefficiencies or even the fact its probably indirectly melting the bunker, or that the bunker in question could be much larger. For example, if we assume the bunker was 6 meters square but 4 meteres tall, with metre thick walls, the area affected could be well over 260,000 kg, which could output between 500-650 Gigajoules to melt.

The end result remains that the multi-melta is firmly in the triple digit gigajoule range, at the very least.

Lets see the Spatern Laser do that.:smallamused:

[Krrth]

Hmmm.....the armors seem similar. Re-link (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armour) to the SM armor for comparison.
numbers 5,7, and 8 come in in certain situations.

5) helps survival rate.

7) In a "hunt" situation, the ability to not sleep, or to sleep while remaining alert. The ability to selectivly shut down parts of your brain while remaining functional comes in very handy for a warrior.

8) this one was designed to enhance survivability. By ingesting samples of the local wildlife the SM gains an automatic understanding of environmental conditions, the local terrain, local dangers and the like.



Spartan armor seems to have an advantage in shields, but it is specifically listed as being unable to stop AP rounds. Since the standard sidearm of a SM consists of AP-explosive rounds, I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes.

edit: If it matters, the Terminator version of Powered armor was originally designed to work in an active nuclear reactor. The other armors aren't as....tough, but they are fully capable of walking through lasgun blasts with relative safety. Since a Lasgun can remove a limb with one hit, that's rather tough.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

edit: If it matters, the Terminator version of Powered armor was originally designed to work in an active nuclear reactor. The other armors aren't as....tough, but they are fully capable of walking through lasgun blasts with relative safety. Since a Lasgun can remove a limb with one hit, that's rather tough.

Clarification: Lasgun is probably on a high power setting, possibly using a hotpack.

The "standard" lasgun setting is roughly as powerful as an autogun.

[Jayngfet]

Hmmm.....the armors seem similar. Re-link (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armour) to the SM armor for comparison.
numbers 5,7, and 8 come in in certain situations.

5) helps survival rate.

7) In a "hunt" situation, the ability to not sleep, or to sleep while remaining alert. The ability to selectivly shut down parts of your brain while remaining functional comes in very handy for a warrior.

8) this one was designed to enhance survivability. By ingesting samples of the local wildlife the SM gains an automatic understanding of environmental conditions, the local terrain, local dangers and the like.



Spartan armor seems to have an advantage in shields, but it is specifically listed as being unable to stop AP rounds. Since the standard sidearm of a SM consists of AP-explosive rounds, I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes.

edit: If it matters, the Terminator version of Powered armor was originally designed to work in an active nuclear reactor. The other armors aren't as....tough, but they are fully capable of walking through lasgun blasts with relative safety. Since a Lasgun can remove a limb with one hit, that's rather tough.

If it helps radiation doesn't affect spartans in armor either. You could bombard them with enough rads to make a fallout player blush with envy and they'd keep fighting.

[Texas_Ben]

Spartan armor (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor) covers most of that. Though you got me on 1, 5, 7, 8, and 11. Though those likley won't be useful here. Unless SM didn't wear a helmet and provides a fleshy target.

Yeah, but all the stuff on that list is spess mehrens without armor.

[Thane of Fife]

And when the Doomguy cometh, Gordon slowly backs away, with his hands visible at all times.

Freeman didn't get a MIT diploma by being stupid.

Even the Doom Marine must Hail to the King, Baby! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_AkHKdLIHs)


On topic, to those citing examples of a couple hundred space marines, there are also examples of 4-5 space marines being slaughtered by an almost equal number of Imperial Guard (not easily, admittedly, but with few casualties).

While I do think the Space Marine has the advantage, I don't think it's as huge as it's being made out to be.

[AssassinKing]

I finally caught up after being gone for hours, many good arguements, but also depending on the chapter as few have mentioned, I'm reading the Horus Heresy series, and I would have to say they are more tough than the spartans because they also fight with real swords with out any armor while trying to do their best to win, this is either for practice or just for fun, there was a part in the series where one of the marines turns to chaos on the main ship, Another marine starts fighting the chaos guy and it was very brutal, grappling each other's heads and slamming them into the floor and walls with all their strength and leaving craters on the floor and walls. Those to guys are average of 8 ft tall that have huge muscles. The master chief is about 6 something and relies on his armor for his strength. His head would be in a world of hurtin if not crushed if he had to be in that kind of brutality, but thats just from what I know.

[Jayngfet]

The space marine has an advantage. I just think it's mostly weapons instead of anything involving armor or training or bio augmentation.

Also, anyone wonder what haloverse would be like about a hundred years from the "now" time? Spartans have super powerful genetics, since the children of spartan I's are supposedly on par with unagumented and unarmored Spartan II's. We have one spartan currently raising a family and Hundreds of spartan III''s running around, not to mention all the space aliens needing to co exist with hated enemies.

[Jayngfet]

I finally caught up after being gone for hours, many good arguements, but also depending on the chapter as few have mentioned, I'm reading the Horus Heresy series, and I would have to say they are more tough than the spartans because they also fight with real swords with out any armor while trying to do their best to win, this is either for practice or just for fun, there was a part in the series where one of the marines turns to chaos on the main ship, Another marine starts fighting the chaos guy and it was very brutal, grappling each other's heads and slamming them into the floor and walls with all their strength and leaving craters on the floor and walls. Those to guys are average of 8 ft tall that have huge muscles. The master chief is about 6 something and relies on his armor for his strength. His head would be in a world of hurtin if not crushed if he had to be in that kind of brutality, but thats just from what I know.

Chief doesn't rely on his armor for strength. Before agumentation he was benching 600 and after augmentation his usual workout took no effort, it was literally like lifting a cardboard tube. The MIJOLNIR armor just boosts the strength and speed to even more insane levels.

[AssassinKing]

Even then the average tactical marine weighs more than 600. If he can flip a tank that is pretty strong, but a marine could probably turn that tank into a corn can.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

On topic, to those citing examples of a couple hundred space marines, there are also examples of 4-5 space marines being slaughtered by an almost equal number of Imperial Guard (not easily, admittedly, but with few casualties).

Just curious, but where?

I've read in Ice Warriors (I think that was it) where a Chaos Space Marine falls to a small squad of IG, but they were a special unit handpicked for a suidiceal assignment (ie, elites) and they lured the CSM into a sewer with a very nasty monster in it which tore off the CSM's arm.

CSM are roughly equal in power (gameplay and fluff wise) to the regular SM. That's the only relevant example I can cite off the top of my head.

[AssassinKing]

Just curious, but where?

I've read in Ice Warriors (I think that was it) where a Chaos Space Marine falls to a small squad of IG, but they were a special unit handpicked for a suidiceal assignment (ie, elites) and they lured the CSM into a sewer with a very nasty monster in it which tore off the CSM's arm.

CSM are roughly equal in power (gameplay and fluff wise) to the regular SM. That's the only relevant example I can cite off the top of my head.

I personally don't think goin by the game rules and stats would be the best comparison because the reason they seem the same is just for balance, A Chaos marine is a regular marine that is either mutated by the warp or regular marines betraying the imperium.

[warty goblin]

My understanding of Chaos Space Marines as compared to regular Space Marines is that it depends exactly how Chaosish they've gone. The simple Traitor Marines aren't particularly more powerful, but those that have been around for a while, and become possessed by Daemons are another thing entirely. Then you've got space Nazi superhumans in power armor with centuries, if not millennia of combat experience, and demons cohabiting their increasingly mutated flesh. Makes the regular power armored superhuman space Nazis look pretty tame, really. I mean at they don't have tentacles...

[Jayngfet]

Even then the average tactical marine weighs more than 600. If he can flip a tank that is pretty strong, but a marine could probably turn that tank into a corn can.

Sorry, I meant 600 before augmentation and armor. With those it's likley multiple thousands.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sorry, I meant 600 before augmentation and armor. With those it's likley multiple thousands.

I'd love to see an excerpt from either a 40k novel or a Halo one providing actual data as to things like this.

[Jayngfet]

I'd love to see an excerpt from either a 40k novel or a Halo one providing actual data as to things like this.

I don't have the book on me but fall of reach is pretty much entirely the details of spartan training and augmentation.

[Myrmex]

SM recruits are the toughtest warriors on the planet they come from in their age range (preteens).

Warrior cultures from feral and primitive world, as well as the gangs on hive worlds, train the kids from birth as far as I can tell.

And from before birth, since there's a lot of selection going on in any population where you have to survive by being an aggressive sociopath.

[Jayngfet]

Feral worlds if untained by anything outside it likely aren't that bad. A hunter gatherer society generally doesn't concern itself with much more than it's immediate needs according to the most recent national geographic. Acting like a Sociopath doesn't get you anywhere because you're expected to be a hunter or gatherer same as the others and everyone's got to share supplies for the most part.

So no, Feral worlds aren't "where you have to survive by being an aggressive sociopath.". It's more where you're more concerned with immediate problems and skills than long term goals or consequences.

Of course there's still selection. More than half the population won't survive to fifteen and you have to learn to make wood/stone weapons with ease, and stalk dangerous animals that could kill you if they spotted you. But you're misinterpreting the psychological elements.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Feral worlds if untained by anything outside it likely aren't that bad.
Then they wouldn't be recruited from. Worlds that are recruited from are places like Caliban or Fenris. The former had chaos beasts swarming all over it until Lionel Johnson lead a campaign to purge all of them shortly before the Emperor arrived, and Fenris has wolves the size of tanks.

[Jayngfet]

Then they wouldn't be recruited from.

Edited my post above, see there.

[Ganurath]

My money goes on the Space Marines for one simple reason: They have experience killing humans. Throughout all the Halo games, you never kill humans. Well, you aren't supposed to.

[chiasaur11]

My money goes on the Space Marines for one simple reason: They have experience killing humans. Throughout all the Halo games, you never kill humans. Well, you aren't supposed to.

Not in the games, sure, but the conflict the less evil of our competitors was built for?

Civil war. Human on human killing fun, some of which old John got deployed for. He did good.

[Jayngfet]

My money goes on the Space Marines for one simple reason: They have experience killing humans. Throughout all the Halo games, you never kill humans. Well, you aren't supposed to.

Master Chief was originally trained to kill humans. The entire spartan II program was to stop rebellion/insurgency. It was only after the Covenant showed up did things start going crazy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

My money goes on the Space Marines for one simple reason: They have experience killing humans. Throughout all the Halo games, you never kill humans. Well, you aren't supposed to.

Shooting an alien in the face isn't much different than shooting a much weaker human in the face.

[Myrmex]

Hitting a target moving at more than 80 KPH

Smurf: Oh look, a galloping horse! Did you know I've been shooting Eldar for the last 100 years, whose gear lets them break causality?


True enough. Note however that at least in-game the Spartans are quite vulnerable to explosives, which just happens to be what bolters shoot.

Bolters fire .75 slugs with a small amount of conventional charge to ignite their propellant. A bolter is simply a rocket powered bullet. They do not have any type of "warhead" or what have you. It's just a really fast bullet.

In fact, a bolter-type weapon is incredibly stupid and makes no sense, except perhaps when using a rifle at huge ranges. The range that SMs typically engage foes makes bolters a rather poor choice of equipment.

[The Glyphstone]

New Idea:

Instead of throwing them into a face-to-face confrontation, let's dump Master Chief and the SPESS MEHRUN onto opposite sides of....say...Catachan. First one to make it to the spaceport in the middle wins. To make things fair, the Space Marine wasn't recruited from a jungle world. Now, who's going to come out on top, or at least make it out alive, from an environment where everything right down to the plant life is trying to kill you?:smallwink:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Bolters fire .75 slugs with a small amount of conventional charge to ignite their propellant. A bolter is simply a rocket powered bullet. They do not have any type of "warhead" or what have you. It's just a really fast bullet.

Standard Bolts comprise the following components: Outer casing, propellant base, main charge, mass reactive detonator cap, depleted uranium core, diamantine tip. The standard bolter shell is standardised at .75 calibre, whereas heavy bolter rounds are larger, at 1.00 Cal.
-Lexicanum

[Selrahc]

Instead of throwing them into a face-to-face confrontation, let's dump Master Chief and the SPESS MEHRUN onto opposite sides of....say...Catachan. First one to make it to the spaceport in the middle wins. To make things fair, the Space Marine wasn't recruited from a jungle world. Now, who's going to come out on top, or at least make it out alive, from an environment where everything right down to the plant life is trying to kill you?

They're both going to be killed by a Barking Toad.

[chiasaur11]

New Idea:

Instead of throwing them into a face-to-face confrontation, let's dump Master Chief and the SPESS MEHRUN onto opposite sides of....say...Catachan. First one to make it to the spaceport in the middle wins. To make things fair, the Space Marine wasn't recruited from a jungle world. Now, who's going to come out on top, or at least make it out alive, from an environment where everything right down to the plant life is trying to kill you?:smallwink:

Well, I figure the Chief's canonical ability to be really, really lucky comes in handy here, as it cuts the odds of disturbing a barking toad and going boom instantly, the shields should protect against spikers and the mind control plants, and some jungle combat training might buy him a tiny bit of time in the nicer sections of Catachan. On the other hand, the bigger native life forms might crush him if he runs into them from the wrong angle, at the wrong time, etcetera. He probably won't be dumb enough to eat anything he finds, or even take off the suit, but there could be nutrition issues eventually. Fifty fifty shot of making it out alive at best.

The Marine isn't as lucky, so that cuts his odds a little. On the other hand, he would have heard stories about the place, and he can eat anything, so that moves him a little closer to having a chance of survival.

I'll need to think about that one.

[Thane of Fife]

Just curious, but where?

I've read in Ice Warriors (I think that was it) where a Chaos Space Marine falls to a small squad of IG, but they were a special unit handpicked for a suidiceal assignment (ie, elites) and they lured the CSM into a sewer with a very nasty monster in it which tore off the CSM's arm.

CSM are roughly equal in power (gameplay and fluff wise) to the regular SM. That's the only relevant example I can cite off the top of my head.

The example I'm thinking of was from one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, with the Tanith First and Only fighting a squad of Chaos Space Marines, so it's something like 8 Imperial Guardsmen against about 4 space marines. Now, mind you, this is a crack guard squad, and they use heavy weaponry to accomplish this (I think they kill one with a sniper rifle, and use demolitions equipment to kill another one, or something), but the point stands to a large extent.

In Caves of Ice, Commissar Cain holds off a traitor marine in single combat long enough for his aide to hit it with a meltagun, which kills it, but to be fair, he's Cain.

[13_CBS]

Standard Bolts comprise the following components: Outer casing, propellant base, main charge, mass reactive detonator cap, depleted uranium core, diamantine tip. The standard bolter shell is standardised at .75 calibre, whereas heavy bolter rounds are larger, at 1.00 Cal.
-Lexicanum


For further evidence,


The standard ammunition employed by the Space Marines is a mass reactive warhead, which has earned the bolter its reputation as a terror weapon. A millisecond fuse detonates the warhead after it has penetrated the target, however at extremely close range the bolts are known to pass through the target, only putting a hole in the target the size of the round and exploding behind it.

[Talkkno]

The example I'm thinking of was from one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, with the Tanith First and Only fighting a squad of Chaos Space Marines, so it's something like 8 Imperial Guardsmen against about 4 space marines. Now, mind you, this is a crack guard squad, and they use heavy weaponry to accomplish this (I think they kill one with a sniper rifle, and use demolitions equipment to kill another one, or something), but the point stands to a large extent.
You give the Marines some credit, considering they were Word Bearers, and they about the crappiest chaos marines you can get since they so relient on there deamons.


In Caves of Ice, Commissar Cain holds off a traitor marine in single combat long enough for his aide to hit it with a meltagun, which kills it, but to be fair, he's Cain.

Cain's just happens to best swordsmen in the entire sector if not segtumeum, so i don't think that really counts.

[Renegade Paladin]

Alternatively, scouts do the sniping because most of the Marines are all "HRUH! We are the glorious Astartes! Who needs camouflage or cover?" They view stealth, concealment, and long-range sniping as the tactics of lowly apprentices (obvious from both the Scouts' mission and the fact that Codex Marines graduate straight from the Scouts to the long range heavy weapon Devastator squads). But that doesn't mean they're right.

WH40k is a universe that unnaturally rewards and encourages heroic single combat between champions, charging into melee, that sort of thing. In a neutral universe that does not favor those things, the Marines' one real disadvantage is that they're easy to see and easy to engage from long range. And that their commanders tend to forget to wear a helmet...

Counterbalancing that is, of course, that Space Marines are enormously stronger and tougher than anything remotely human has any right to be, and that they have an average of decades of combat experience, ranging up into centuries in extreme cases.

However, talking about melee-range combat is largely irrelevant; it's not where battles are decided in real life even if it is in the grim darkness of the far future. So I think sniper-range is where the Master Chief actually has a credible chance of winning this one, especially if he's fighting a Marine from one of the dumber or more melee-centric Chapters.
This is very true of the Ultramarines or Blood Angels, but toss him in with a Raven Guard Marine and see how he fares. :smallamused: Not that any given one of them wouldn't swat him like a fly, but at least the latter stands a better chance of acting halfway intelligently. And also a better chance of having a jump pack. :smallbiggrin:

[Tavar]

Actually, from what I've read, the commander's without helmet's thing is another gameplay/story segregation. For the table top, you need to be able to tell who are the important people easily, and since marines all look similar, the leaders lack helmets so they're easily identifiable.

[crazedloon]

There are plenty of instances of marines taking explosives to the face and shrugging it off. In space wolf one of ragnar's pack mates (can't recall his name at this time) take grenade to the face. All he needs is a skin spray and he is back in the game. The majority of marines who are in Dreadnoughts are barely half a person but still are alive and can be for hundreds of years. Terminator armor can withstand being stepped on by a titan (a couple hundred foot tall walking killing machine) with the marine inside only slightly inconvenienced. With things like that working for the marine how is a Spartan who dies when hit by a truck and barely capable of surviving space going do?

[warty goblin]

For further evidence,

So basically, if getting a three quarters of an inch hole punched in you didn't ruin your day enough, your spleen just exploded.

And honestly, to whomever said that rocket propelled bullets don't make any sense, at .75cal they just might. That's basically a 20mm round, the recoil of which is...considerable to say the least. There have been anti-tank rifles of that caliber, but they basically had to be fired from prone. Furthermore it takes a lot of explosive to get a shell that size going fast. I've got a pair of M51A2 20mm training rounds sitting on my desk, and the casings are about five inches long. You're not going to burn all that powder in the shortish sort of barrel you want for your standard gun. Putting a rocket on the back of the bullet not only extends the effective range, it also probably allows for a higher velocity than would otherwise be possible.

[13_CBS]

So basically, if getting a three quarters of an inch hole punched in you didn't ruin your day enough, your spleen just exploded.


Or you have burning acid being pumped into your systems via thousands of tiny needles, or your flesh is being melted by a chemical fire, or you just got a mini frag grenade blown up in your torso, or...

[warty goblin]

Or you have burning acid being pumped into your systems via thousands of tiny needles, or your flesh is being melted by a chemical fire, or you just got a mini frag grenade blown up in your torso, or...
WH40K: We have more ways to kill you than you have numbers.

[chiasaur11]

WH40K: We have more ways to kill you than you have numbers.

That's when we pull out "Mr. Billion".

And while he's bleeding to death from some horrible disease, we quietly slip google back into play.

[13_CBS]

That's when we pull out "Mr. Billion".

And while he's bleeding to death from some horrible disease, we quietly slip google back into play.


Don't be silly. Tzeentch appropriated all rights to the number "google", just as planned.

[chiasaur11]

Don't be silly. Tzeentch appropriated all rights to the number "google", just as planned.

It's still a number though, and can be used to count ways to die.

Besides, giving Tzeentch google let not-Tzeentch factions use Aleph One. Which is still the only number really up to the job.

[Mr._Blinky]

Well, I've just caught myself back up on this thread, so a few thoughts on what I've seen people say. Note that I'm not going to bother quoting, since that would take forever to go through the entire thread again. If you see what's addressed at you, I hope you recognize it.

1) I saw someone say SMs are from the top 10% of humanity. That might've been a typo, but it's not even close. Try the top .0000001% of humanity or so, give or take a zero or two.

2) Someone said Terminator armor was designed for working in nuclear reactors. Close, but actually they're designed for plasma reactors, which is even more hardcore.

3) As people have started pointing out in the last couple of pages, the fact that Chief is extremely fast is not as big an advantage as it could be. SMs fight Eldar and Dark Eldar frequently, both of whom are far faster than a Spartan II.

4) Covenant plasma and Imperium plasma are no where near comparable. In the Halo novels, marines with Chief can survive multiple plasma hits. Don't get me wrong, they're horribly burned and are often crippled or mortally wounded, but they're alive. Getting his by an Imperial plasma pistol is an insta-kill against a regular human in 40K.

5) SMs aren't as stupid as they may seem, and do really know tactics. Remember, Marines get selected because they are the best of the best of the best of the best of the best, meaning they all have to be freakishly competent to even get considered. Even with a Marine's armor and insane toughness, you need more than that to survive as long as they do, and fighting the things they do.

6) While I do say I think SM reflexes might be near a Spartan IIs, and I don't think there's much question that Chief is faster, it should be noted that Chief is also far more agile. Witness this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaf8CVS6cg) video from Halo Wars to see Spartans in action when they're not played by someone who only has access to three movement commands.

7) Spartan Laser is good at killing Halo tanks. Lascannon is devastating against even 40K tanks, which are on a whole other scale all together. Remember, Terminators have survived being stepped on by 200 foot high titans, but at least in the tabletop getting hit by a lascannon is an instant kill.

8) While it's pretty clear from the above video that Spartans are both strong and skilled, I'd still give the melee edge to the Marine easily. The strength, toughness, and skill they possess is absurd, even by the standards of a setting where there is far more emphasis on close-combat than there logically ought to be.

9) The Halo manual is pretty clearly a case of Did Not Do The Research. I think we can pretty safely ignore the numbers it gives, although Imperium plasma weapons are still superior.

10) While they might be equal in game terms, lasrifles are actually superior to modern ballistics weapons. In one Gaunt's Ghosts novel, a trooper has his entire arm blown off by a stray las-shot, and others have their heads totally vaporized.

11) Space Marine bolters are definitely full auto, and heavy bolters fire quite fast. They're only limited to low numbers of shots do to game simplification. Look at it this way: even the assault cannon, which is an honest-to-God gatling gun, only gets one more shot per turn than the heavy bolter, 4. Heavy bolters fire plenty fast.

12) If Cortana is indeed present, that's a pretty massive boost for Chief. In Fall of Reach, Cortana is able to handle the timing of Chief's armor so effectively that she manages to literally punch away a rocket aimed for him while he's running, so that it harmlessly careens off and misses. The Marine can't hope to compete with that level of speed, incredibly quick though they are.

13) The Halo sniper rifle is actually pretty crappy. Seriously, four shots, and without even having all that amazing of a stopping power? Plus, that contrail leads right back to the shooter. Honestly, we have a lot of better rifles today. And the main issue is that while yes, it's got great penetration, which it certainly needs against the ceramite, that also means poor terminal ballistics (read: stopping power), and considering the things it takes to kill a Marine it's entirely possible the SM would survive at least one headshot.

14) One of the most important things about the bolter that no one seems to take into account is that since the round explodes, it doesn't even actually need to hit. Anyone who's played Halo or indeed any game with rockets knows that often when shooting a fast target the best option is to shoot the feet. Sure, it might not hurt as bad as a direct hit, but they can't dodge the splash and eventually it'll take its toll. The bolter rounds don't need direct strikes, they just need to hit close enough to catch Chief in the blast. Given the clip size and rate of fire, I'd say they could probably get him fairly effectively without ever needing to actually shoot him.

15) No one ever seems to consider it, but Chief is in his mid-forties during the Halo games. Not too old for an officer, but considering that after all that he's still a ridiculously fast, strong, agile, and skilled frontline warrior capable of taking on armies single-handed? He's badass. I mean sure, Marines are usually older, even by centuries, but they're genetically modified to be potentially immortal. Spartan's just have a really good health-plan.

More as I think of it. Don't get me wrong, the Spartan's and especially MC are truly hardcore badasses, but Marines are from a universe where it's pretty hardcore badass to even live past infancy. Cool as the Spartans are, Marines are just better armed, more experienced, and generally tougher. Luck and agility are really the only things I can think of where Chief has the edge.

[crazedloon]

One also must remember Marines also have thousands of years and millions of battle strategy literally downloaded into their brain.

Also the Marines are on par speed wise IMHO their armor may look bulky but it has no wait on them because it is jacked into their spine and and the black carapace which ensures it moves as they move not as a reaction. Add onto that the increased agility due to bio engineering and what they fight very often (as quoted before eldar at the best examples as they can move so quickly the average human sees only a blur) they are at least as agile as MC. Add on lighting claws which emphasize a close quarters fast attack and agile approach and the chief is outclassed.

[Killer Angel]

One also must remember Marines also have thousands of years and millions of battle strategy literally downloaded into their brain.


Exactly. Too much data for choosing properly. Better avoid confusion and charge frontally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyjCmnkGB1I) the enemy. :smallbiggrin:

WH40k = high tech WWI. I love it.

[Selrahc]

Claiming that Space Marines are as fast as Master Chief seems a little implausible. The speed boost of the spartans is a major feature of the enhancement program, and one that is hammered home on multiple occasions. Space Marines have no such emphasis. We know that they have enhanced reflexes, but spartans have exceptionally advanced reflexes, almost certainly superior to a normal Eldar's. Spartans see in bullet time.

The other issue is that we have seen Space Marines who move as fast as Master Chief. Ragnar Blackmane would have reflexes as fast or faster than the chief(At least in rage mode). Ragnar's reflexes are emphasized as something exceptional even for a space marine throughout the series of books he is in. If Ragnar is exceptional and he is at a similar level to Chief and the other spartans then Space Marines must be normally significantly less fast than Chief.

I don't think there is really any question that Master Chief can run faster. Space Marines have never been vaunted for their foot speed in any source of which I'm aware.

[Dervag]

A few notes:

1) I saw someone say SMs are from the top 10% of humanity. That might've been a typo, but it's not even close. Try the top .0000001% of humanity or so, give or take a zero or two.Not even that; Space Marines aren't human, biologically speaking. In any number of ways, they operate far outside the range of possible biology for human beings.


2) Someone said Terminator armor was designed for working in nuclear reactors. Close, but actually they're designed for plasma reactors, which is even more hardcore.Though undefined, so we have no idea whether it's actually more impressive in terms of power output.


3) As people have started pointing out in the last couple of pages, the fact that Chief is extremely fast is not as big an advantage as it could be. SMs fight Eldar and Dark Eldar frequently, both of whom are far faster than a Spartan II.Is that certain?


5) SMs aren't as stupid as they may seem, and do really know tactics. Remember, Marines get selected because they are the best of the best of the best of the best of the best, meaning they all have to be freakishly competent to even get considered. Even with a Marine's armor and insane toughness, you need more than that to survive as long as they do, and fighting the things they do.Thing is, most Marine chapters select their recruits in childhood, so all their tactical skills are learned. Some chapters are canny tacticians and (less frequently) canny strategists, but others seem to rely very heavily on their augmentations and equipment at the expense of their brains. The conflict between brains and brawn is fairly explicit in a number of Space Marine novels; have you read Iron Snakes?


8) While it's pretty clear from the above video that Spartans are both strong and skilled, I'd still give the melee edge to the Marine easily. The strength, toughness, and skill they possess is absurd, even by the standards of a setting where there is far more emphasis on close-combat than there logically ought to be.Absolutely.


11) Space Marine bolters are definitely full auto, and heavy bolters fire quite fast. They're only limited to low numbers of shots do to game simplification. Look at it this way: even the assault cannon, which is an honest-to-God gatling gun, only gets one more shot per turn than the heavy bolter, 4. Heavy bolters fire plenty fast.There's a catch: rate of fire doesn't guarantee accuracy. A guy firing a rifle on semi-auto and a guy firing a machine gun on full auto at the same target will be putting grossly different amounts of lead in the air, but the odds are good that they're putting much more similar numbers of bullets on target. Shots per turn has to reflect both the volume of fire and the accuracy of that fire, which is why Rapid Fire weapons don't get as many shots per turn at long range. So a gatling bolter that fires ten times more shells than a normal automatic bolter might still only get one more attack per round... because the vast majority of the gatling bolter shells simply fly between enemies and hit random bits of the scenery, or are wasted blowing apart a target that was already killed by the first couple of rounds.


14) One of the most important things about the bolter that no one seems to take into account is that since the round explodes, it doesn't even actually need to hit. Anyone who's played Halo or indeed any game with rockets knows that often when shooting a fast target the best option is to shoot the feet. Sure, it might not hurt as bad as a direct hit, but they can't dodge the splash and eventually it'll take its toll. The bolter rounds don't need direct strikes, they just need to hit close enough to catch Chief in the blast. Given the clip size and rate of fire, I'd say they could probably get him fairly effectively without ever needing to actually shoot him.Bolter rounds have a very small effective blast radius against armored targets, though; they're far too small to do much damage by concussion, and the armor is proof against typical shrapnel. There's a reason that nobody builds 25mm artillery pieces, after all. I don't think the blast radius of bolter rounds will matter.

[hamishspence]

It's closer to saying that Space Marines are recruited from the top 0.000001% of humanity.

About a million worlds in the Imperium- just over a million active Space Marines- all were human once, before their upgrading.

[Lord of Rapture]

That's when we pull out "Mr. Billion".

And while he's bleeding to death from some horrible disease, we quietly slip google back into play.

Technically it's googol.

[Texas_Ben]

Exactly. Too much data for choosing properly. Better avoid confusion and charge frontally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyjCmnkGB1I) the enemy. :smallbiggrin:


Clearly, those mehrens were under the command of the illustrious Indrick Boreale.

[Killer Angel]

Clearly, those mehrens were under the command of the illustrious Indrick Boreale.

So true.
Sadly, I fear that very few Sisters of battle will cry his departure... :smallwink:

[Talkkno]

. Space Marines have no such emphasis. We know that they have enhanced reflexes, but spartans have exceptionally advanced reflexes, almost certainly superior to a normal Eldar's. Spartans see in bullet time.



I'd like to see Spatern kick a thrown gernade back, or have precongition :smallannoyed: Dark Eldar move so fast that you need 5x slow on a pict-cast to even see them, even then its a blurr.

[chiasaur11]

I'd like to see Spatern kick a thrown gernade back, or have precongition :smallannoyed: Dark Eldar move so fast that you need 5x slow on a pict-cast to even see them, even then its a blurr.

Precog ain't speed. Different things entirely. Its like saying someone is so intelligent, he can juggle five chainsaws. Sure, it's impressive, but it ain't the same thing.

As for the grenade bit?

Chief THREW A ROCKET BACK AT THE GUY WHO SHOT IT. Or at least deflected the thing, been a bit since I read "Fall of Reach".

[Talkkno]

Chief THREW A ROCKET BACK AT THE GUY WHO SHOT IT. Or at least deflected the thing, been a bit since I read "Fall of Reach".

Cortana helped. So nonsequitor.

[The Glyphstone]

Dark Eldar move so fast that you need 5x slow on a pict-cast to even see them, even then its a blurr.

Text-quote for this one?

[Mr._Blinky]

It's closer to saying that Space Marines are recruited from the top 0.000001% of humanity.

About a million worlds in the Imperium- just over a million active Space Marines- all were human once, before their upgrading.

Well, yeah, that's kinda' what I meant. I am fully aware that the fact that they really are no longer human and yet are the protectors of humanity is a pretty big source of angst for a lot of Marines.



Chief THREW A ROCKET BACK AT THE GUY WHO SHOT IT. Or at least deflected the thing, been a bit since I read "Fall of Reach".

Um, he deflected it, and as I said in a previous post that was with Cortana handling the timing. Damn impressive, but there's a reason I said he gets a boost if he has Cortana.

[Oslecamo]

I'd like to see Spatern kick a thrown gernade back, or have precongition :smallannoyed: Dark Eldar move so fast that you need 5x slow on a pict-cast to even see them, even then its a blurr.

That doesn't stop them from being so slow that they get caught by ogryns who move so slowly that you can snipe them with melta guns.

Also, if the spech merines are recruited from the top 0,000001% of mankind, no wonder the emperium is in such deep crap. Mindraping your best people into fanatic mouthfoaming zealots does horror for any kind of development.

Nevermind the simple fact that since the emperium considers pretty much everything heresy, and that spech merines are the uber loyal terror troops, you really can't be much picky. A lot more of bloodthirsty criminals willing to do anything for a better life join the spech merine ranks than scholars with new revolutionary ideas.

[hamishspence]

yeah, I was replying to Dervag's "Not even that" comment.

If you look backward from "fully graduated Space Marine" to "recruit" those recruits who would eventually become Space Marines (and not wash out in horrible, horrible ways :smallamused:) must have been the best of the best, in terms of "natural talent"

Which is not to say they are inhuman before recruitment- only that they were very, very exceptional humans.

Remember that they are the top (insert tiny number here) % of humanity primarily in natural fighting skills- says little about how bright they are.

The training apparently does wonders for what they can do with their minds though- improved recall being just one of the things.

[Oslecamo]

Which is not to say they are inhuman before recruitment- only that they were very, very exceptional humans.


Hmm, dude, KILL THE MUTANT! Inhumans are killed on sight at best. Being sent directly to the hellish frontline is equaly probable if the inhuman acepts to worship the emprah.

So, no, spech merine racism will stop them from recruiting anyone who isn't "pure" enough.

....

Someone really needs to do a chapter of ogryn marines. Librarians and chaplains included.

Their chaos version will serve Khorne. And they'll be the strongest psykers on the galaxy.

[hamishspence]

Inhuman in the sense of being beyond what is physically possible for present day humans-

I haven't seen anything suggesting (as Dune does) that the "norm" for humans of the Imperium era is actually different from that of those of the present day.

Interestingly "kill the mutant" doesn't seem to apply in many of the novels (Eisenhorn trilogy in particular)- mutants are a tolerated underclass on many Imperial worlds.

And mutated Space Marine Geneseed crops up a lot- with levels of tolerance varying. The fanged Blood Angels, the red-eyed Salamanders, even the Black Dragons, with their bony growths.

A big mutation- like flaming skin, that burns without harming the owner, and its crackdown time.

[13_CBS]

Master Chief has one advantage, though: he doesn't have to fight incompetent idiots all the time the way SPESS MEHREENS do:

http://1d4chan.org/images/3/3c/Chaoslordz.jpg

[Talkkno]

hamishspence don't bother replying to Oslecamo, he's full of *****.

[Talkkno]

Text-quote for this one?

Don't have on hand, IRRC its the Dark Eldar codex. But it was a An extended recording of a Dark Eldar raid (depicting the death of nearly seventy individuals) needed to be slowed down to 1/4th the original speed for individual Dark Eldar to be even distinguishable over the course of their slaughter.

The thing is eldar is simply far more able to focus their attention on learning and employing skills than a human and has a far longer time frame in which to do so, considering according to xenogly there nerves are packed 6 times more densely then in a human brain. They have literally no body fat and their muscles are spiral-structured, working more like coiled springs than the cables of human muscles. Thus maxixmixng aglity and speed, where a Spartern or a Space Marine has to be overengrired to approach that caliber, even then they are slower since there sheer mass will restrict there speed compared to a lightly built but fully optimized eldar.

[Oslecamo]

And all those concentrated nerves ended up spawning a chaos god who has driven them to the brink of excition.

The salamanders primarch on the other hand kicked the ass of a whole dark eldar raiding force. With handmade weapons. And a bunch of farmers.

Plus imperial recording devices suck, since all the incense and holy oils used by the techpriests end up jamming the circuitry.

[AssassinKing]

If I am correct for speed wise the White Scars use gurilla warfare so they would need for speed so they are probably faster than most marines. For intelligence wise, the Iron fists are one of the most intelligent for their defensive tactics and they also helped with the technology made for the imperium. Space Wolves are probably the most brutal bad asses out there, they are like drunk vikings. So it depends on what chapter the MC is facing, if its the white scars he could set traps for the opponent, Iron Fists it would be a challange for the MC to out smart the opponent even with cortana, Well MC could probably out smart a Space Wolf easily however if he gets caught, it would be like a snake eating a mouse.

[Talkkno]

The salamanders primarch on the other hand kicked the ass of a whole dark eldar raiding force. With handmade weapons. And a bunch of farmers.

Plus imperial recording devices suck, since all the incense and holy oils used by the techpriests end up jamming the circuitry.

Oh the novels that you claim are so biased ::smallwink::

[13_CBS]

Oh the novels that you claim are so biased ::smallwink::

The Salamanders Primarch part is from official GW lore, made by GW employees and not by heretics writers who are more concerned with telling a story than with sticking to WH40k canon.

[Talkkno]

The Salamanders Primarch part is from official GW lore, made by GW employees and not by heretics writers who are more concerned with telling a story than with sticking to WH40k canon.

What about novels written by the game desingers themselves? Oslecamo here dissmiseed evidence from Kill Team, despite being written by Gav Thrope, clearly a double standerd. :smallwink:

[Inhuman Bot]

hamishspence don't bother replying to Oslecamo, he's full of *****.

Woah there buddy, let's keep things civil.

Idea: What would happen if MC was given spaece mahreen weaponry?

[Jayngfet]

Woah there buddy, let's keep things civil.

Idea: What would happen if MC was given spaece mahreen weaponry?

Then he wins. He's already faster and has armor thats similar except

a. The systems are kept safely in the armor instnead of a bulky backpack.

b. MC has titanium based armor instead of Ceramics based.

[warty goblin]

Woah there buddy, let's keep things civil.

Idea: What would happen if MC was given spaece mahreen weaponry?

That depends. If you handed MC a bolter, then shoved him out into a 10x10 arena with some Assault Marine Sergeant, MC's a greasespot. If you actually gave him a chance to train, he'd still do reasonably OK, and probably significantly better- results varying by topology of the combat area.

Either way, Nomad still owns both with the TAC cannon.

[13_CBS]

b. MC has titanium based armor instead of Ceramics based.

I hope MC doesn't use plasma weaponry against a SPESS MEHREEN, since...


Ceramite is a form of ceramic material, used in higher-end types of Imperial armour such as carapace armour, power armour and Terminator armour. Ceramite conducts almost no heat, making it especially heat-resistant and effective against energy-based weapons.

Power armor is also a piece of equipment descended from literally tens of thousands of years of military use, all the way back in the days when human technology was at its peak. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

[AssassinKing]

The bolter is bigger and heavier than the warthog turret, and from what I know the chief runs fairly slow with it, so yeah I don't think he has the agility or speed anymore.

[warty goblin]

The bolter is bigger and heavier than the warthog turret, and from what I know the chief runs fairly slow with it, so yeah I don't think he has the agility or speed anymore.

The heavy bolter maybe, since I believe the Imperial Guard uses it as a squad crewed heavy weapon. The normal bolter I think is at the very outside of what a normal human can handle, and I know that bog standard people can use bolt pistols OK. So MC with the heavy bolter isn't going to be winning any races, but he should be OK with the standard version

[AssassinKing]

The heavy bolter maybe, since I believe the Imperial Guard uses it as a squad crewed heavy weapon. The normal bolter I think is at the very outside of what a normal human can handle, and I know that bog standard people can use bolt pistols OK. So MC with the heavy bolter isn't going to be winning any races, but he should be OK with the standard version

True, but I still think he would need at least basic training with the wepons, because they have completely different weapon systems and are bigger and have more power, and that goes for space marines as well, because the halo weapons are probably lighter and might be easier to crush.

[warty goblin]

True, but I still think he would need at least basic training with the wepons, because they have completely different weapon systems and are bigger and have more power, and that goes for space marines as well, because the halo weapons are probably lighter and might be easier to crush.

Honestly if I were a Space Marine, I'd figure that it'd be more efficient to throw most of Halo's weapons in the enemy's face, then punch him.

[Talkkno]

Woah there buddy, let's keep things civil.

Idea: What would happen if MC was given spaece mahreen weaponry?

Sorry, he's just been doing that since the last 40k fluff thread.

The thing is, there is no way for MC use power armor since he lacks black caprace.

[AssassinKing]

Honestly if I were a Space Marine, I'd figure that it'd be more efficient to throw most of Halo's weapons in the enemy's face, then punch him.

Lol I totally see that happening. I don't remember what movie it's from but it's a ww2 one but an american soldier and a german guy throws their helmets at eachother and get into a melee fight.

[Jayngfet]

Power armor is also a piece of equipment descended from literally tens of thousands of years of military use, all the way back in the days when human technology was at its peak. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Except your basic power armor hasn't changed all that much in design in hundreds of thousands of years. The imperium in general seems to frown on progress. As opposed to the UNSC, given about twenty years and their new ex covenant buddies to lend them things they'd likley beat SM armor in just about every way.

[warty goblin]

Except your basic power armor hasn't changed all that much in design in hundreds of thousands of years. The imperium in general seems to frown on progress. As opposed to the UNSC, given about twenty years and their new ex covenant buddies to lend them things they'd likley beat SM armor in just about every way.
I fail to see how that's relevant.

Anyway, that power armor link floating around earlier mentioned a very recent development, which significantly improved the old . I found the passage about how it eliminated a shell trap at the neck particularly intriguing. I don't know about you, but designing things so bullets no longer bounce off of my chest into my throat is a pretty significant improvement.

But that might just be my vocal chords talking.

[The Glyphstone]

I still think the only way to keep this from devolving into a contest of whose fanboys can yell louder is to stick both contestants somewhere they've got a challenge just surviving, let alone beating each other, like Catachan or maybe Fenris. Does the Haloverse have anything as lethal as a death world? Maybe that one Halo that the Flood and the Gravemind had completely taken over?

[Jayngfet]

I fail to see how that's relevant.

Anyway, that power armor link floating around earlier mentioned a very recent development, which significantly improved the old . I found the passage about how it eliminated a shell trap at the neck particularly intriguing. I don't know about you, but designing things so bullets no longer bounce off of my chest into my throat is a pretty significant improvement.

But that might just be my vocal chords talking.

That is in fact signifigant, however according to Lexicanum it's seen limited use. It isn't something you give to every other SM so much as being a symbol of relatively high rank.

The other thing was mostly off topic speculation. Should the halo franchise continue eventually we'll likley get a more straight up match to power Armour. Then we'll see how this match works.

[Krrth]

Except your basic power armor hasn't changed all that much in design in hundreds of thousands of years. The imperium in general seems to frown on progress. As opposed to the UNSC, given about twenty years and their new ex covenant buddies to lend them things they'd likley beat SM armor in just about every way.

Just as a nit-pick, that's wrong. The Imperium hasn't been around hundreds of thousands of years. Remember, it's 40k, not 400k. or 401k for that matter.

Also keep in mind that the UNSC would be destroyed within those 20 years in the 40k universe. Chaos loves inquisitive minds.....

[Jayngfet]

Just as a nit-pick, that's wrong. The Imperium hasn't been around hundreds of thousands of years. Remember, it's 40k, not 400k. or 401k for that matter.

Also keep in mind that the UNSC would be destroyed within those 20 years in the 40k universe. Chaos loves inquisitive minds.....

Who says they develop in 40k verse? They're more than capable of developing it on their own.

[Krrth]

Who says they develop in 40k verse? They're more than capable of developing it on their own.

Not really, no. Remember, a large chunk of what makes the SM, and by extension their armor, special doesn't duplicate well outside the universe. Without the warp to draw on you loose a lot of possibilities. Teleporters, Psy-weapons, Librarians, Astropaths, the Emperor, the Primarchs...

Suits of PA have machine spirits. Literally. I simply cannot see a way for someone to duplicate the technology outside of 40k.

[Jayngfet]

Not really, no. Remember, a large chunk of what makes the SM, and by extension their armor, special doesn't duplicate well outside the universe. Without the warp to draw on you loose a lot of possibilities. Teleporters, Psy-weapons, Librarians, Astropaths, the Emperor, the Primarchs...

Suits of PA have machine spirits. Literally. I simply cannot see a way for someone to duplicate the technology outside of 40k.

Cortana, she's pretty much as close to a machine spirit as you can get.

And I'm talking in sheer power. Remember this is sheer power, not fluff.

[Krrth]

Cortana, she's pretty much as close to a machine spirit as you can get.

And I'm talking in sheer power. Remember this is sheer power, not fluff.


Erm....Cortana isn't even close to being a machine spirit. Machine spirits are by definition not an AI.

We have to use 40K fluff since that's the primary canon. If we don't, a lot of assumptions go away.....like using xeno tech, not advancing technology, not getting your soul eaten by chaos demons.....

[Jayngfet]

So SM gets the home field advantage? No, we aren't making this baised. Neutral ground from niether verses. No chance of outside interferance. Just our guys, their weapons, and the terrain. No chaos, no flood, no nothing.

[Krrth]

So SM gets the home field advantage? No, we aren't making this baised. Neutral ground from niether verses. No chance of outside interferance. Just our guys, their weapons, and the terrain. No chaos, no flood, no nothing.

I'm not sure where you're getting home field advantage from. I was pointing out that in any discussion of 40K you have to take the fluff into account. If you take the tech out of 40k, that's fine. However: my point that the tech cannot be easily duplicated, if at all, still stands.

Remember that much of what occurs in 40k happens because of the warp. Remove that and the whole thing falls apart.

[Jayngfet]

Either I worded it wrong or you're misreading me. They won't copy, they'll improve. Add better armor and more plates, boost energy shields, increase censors, make better guns. 40k stays the same, halo drives to better itself. They're pretty much the exact opposite there.

[AstralFire]

Either I worded it wrong or you're misreading me. They won't copy, they'll improve. Add better armor and more plates, boost energy shields, increase censors,

"There's one force those darn, dirty Space Marines can't fight."
"Admiral Keyes- you can't mean-"
"Yes. Activate the Comic Codes Authority. Now."

[StGlebidiah]

Master Chief has one advantage, though: he doesn't have to fight incompetent idiots all the time the way SPESS MEHREENS do:

http://1d4chan.org/images/3/3c/Chaoslordz.jpg

Have you PLAYED the Halo games? The enemy mooks are pretty much the definition of incompetent idiots. They're about on par with the freakin' droid army from the Star Wars prequels.

I hate using the fluff for this matchup, simply because in both cases it's a bunch of glorified (that is to say, published) masturbatory fanfic amping the levels of badassery of the author's favourite in-game alter-ego up to 1E11. Though it is enjoyable light reading from time to time!

At least in terms of gameplay mechanics the Space Marines actually are significantly better than default humans. Halo's gameplay doesn't back up any of the claims made by the fanfic in the slightest.

I'll let you chaps argue the fluff until the cows come home, but I'd like to actually take a stab at the gameplay evidence. My initial assumption (which makes my argument moot if you disagree with it!) will be that a standard Imperial Guardsman is the equal, physically, of the random marine mooks you occasionally get as allies in the Halo games.

Let's do the Space Marine first:

WS, BS, S, T, I = 4 vs IG's 3. In gameplay terms, this means that a SM has a 2/9 chance to kill an IG a single melee hit (.5 to hit, .667 to wound, .667 to fail armour save). However! The IG has a 1/18 chance to do the same to the SM (if he were to strike at the same time!). One-on-one, the SM goes first every time, so the IG has a 7/162 chance (only worse by a factor of 7/9). SM has an advantage by a factor of 4 or greater.

At range, the SM has a 4/9 chance to kill the IG using a standard bolter (the bolter blows away the IG's armour). The IG fares significantly worse, having only a 1/18 chance to kill the SM with his standard lasgun, or 1/12 chance to kill him using a bolter. SM has an advantage by a factor of 5.333 or greater.

In terms of weaponry: lasCANNONS, and plasma and melta weapons, will all completely ignore SM armour, and have a 5/6 chance to wound the SM (the max chance in-game to wound something). Pretty much anything else in the SM arsenal (except an autocannon) has a worse chance to wound the SM, and will not ignore his armour. As a note, the 40K sniper rifle has an even chance to wound ANYTHING, but crap for armour penetration. The IG and SM equipment lists are pretty similar, in terms of weaponry. Anything the IG can get, I'm pretty sure the SM can have too. The only relatively commonplace weapon the IG can't get that the SMs can is, I believe, the storm bolter, which is basically a faster-shooty bolter.

Now the Master Chief:

As the MC, you do run faster than your mook allies. However, the difference is very very slight. Based on this, it is fair to say that the MC has better foot speed, and probably overall speed including reflexes, than a normal human. However, they are notably NOT superhuman. In addition, games have DONE bullet-time before, and Halo is NOT bullet-time, nor does it even have an optional bullet-time mechanic. In this sense, MC has his reflexes equal to those of the thumbs of the person playing him, which are admittedly probably faster than the dodge reflexes of said person, but still, nowhere near superhuman. Your mook allies also dodge things, and are only slower in so much as they are generally very slightly slower in-game. As for shooting accuracy, I've seen the in-game marines hit tons of stuff, but they never seem to do much damage. I'm not sure if this is an in-game mechanic or what, but they seem plenty able to point the painful end at an enemy. MC still has the better shot though.

MC can flip any vehicle in the game. I don't know if the computer-controlled allies ever try to flip a vehicle. Lord knows they seems to turn them over enough that, if they aren't flipping them back themselves, I'm not sure how they keep driving. How much stronger is the MC then? I'm not sure. However, able to flip a Warthog or Banshee is pretty strong. In terms of close-combat, MC can one-shot kill enemies with a well-placed smack from behind, or two-shot the weakest grunts, or... etc. I've never bothered watching my allies to see if they ever try melee, so I can't make a comparison. If anyone has observed a computer-controlled human meleeing a Covenant, what happens? However, unless every enemy in the game is incredibly tough, there is a discrepancy between MC's flip-stuff-over strength and his melee strength. Let's just say that he's much stronger than a regular human until there is evidence that the computer-controlled mooks be similarly effective as MC in melee - quite probably stronger than an IG than the SM is stronger than the IG. Though it must be borne in mind that the strength scale in 40K is nowhere near linear, and a difference of 1 makes a much more significant difference than you might think.

In terms of resilience, everything I have seen in-game in Halo suggests that the marines have essentially the same health as MC, just no shields. Even the random unarmoured Navy personnel can take the same number of hits from weaponry and melee as the MC with his shields down. Also, unless little red crosses mean "Armour Patch Kit," the MC has no hard armour to speak of - it's all just equipment generating his shield. Shields go down, then health goes down. In 40K terms, this suggests that every single person in the Halo universe has multiple wounds - however, the mechanics are completely different and cannot easily be directly compared. The main difference is that 40K says, "If it damages you, you die, but there's always a chance it won't damage you!" Halo says, "If sufficient damage is accrued, you die - so there are some things which, if they hit, will always kill you." Basically, under my original assumption, MC has one wound, and is no tougher than an average human except for his shield. Which, while part of his kit/loadout, is not part of his physiology. The shield needs to be compared to the SM's armour, or be treated as an extra wound.

In terms of weaponry: as discussed above, weaponry in the Halo games seems to fair just as well against mooks as it does against the MC, with the only difference being that MC has a shield. It's hard to say anything useful about this here. There are weapons which can completely destroy MC's shield in one hit. There are weapons which can outright kill the MC in one hit. Against heavily armoured enemies, the sniper rifle is as useless as anything else unless you hit the "weak spot." Some other weapons, such as the rocket launcher, exhibit weak armour penetration as well, and only do minimal splash damage. The shield bar, as I recall, can absorb about the same amount of damage as your health bar. In this sense, it gives the MC the equivalent of two wounds. This works, in a way - in 40K, weapons with twice your T in S will one-shot you, even if you have multiple wounds, and the only things that can one-shot the MC are seriously heavy weapons (barring locational damage). What this then implies is that the MC's rather non-existent armour is the equal of an IG's armour or worse. Don't discount how important having two wounds is!

Conclusion: the MC has stats that could definitely pose the SM a few problems. His WS, BS, S, and I are likely 4, though S may be 5. His T is 3 and his AS is 5+, but his W is 2. However, I think the significant difference here is armour and weapon strength. With the exception of the heavy laser weapons, there is nothing in Halo that has in-game performance that suggests it would outright pierce the SM's armour. Also, the in-game data suggests that Halo's default projectile weapons have a S score of at best 3 and at worst 2, as indicated by mooks taking comparable amounts of fire to the MC sans shield. If the SM is using a bolter, and the MC is using his assault rifle, based on these numbers, the SM has a 16/81 chance to wound the MC twice consecutively, and the MC has a 12/81 chance to wound the SM once out of two shots. Slim advantage SM. If the weapon power gets to the point where the MC is ignoring SM armour, it is also at the point where the MC is being one-shot-killed by double-toughness strength, which actually makes it nearly dead even. However, there are significantly more 40K weapons which will one-shot the MC than there are Halo weapons which will ignore SM armour.

In melee, this MC is actually more dangerous because he has S equal to the SM's T or higher, and while his T is one less than the SM's S, he significantly has 2 W. Neither combatant will ignore his opponent's armour, unless special weapons are used. The SM can theoretically carry close-combat weaponry as standard loadout to grant him more A and thus even the odds, but that reduces his ranged effectiveness.

Oddly enough, by this "analysis," MC's best chance is to sneak up on the SM and karate chop him in the back. How likely this is depends entirely on how well you think SM gear, such as his armour's sensors and an auspex, works. MC will certainly be able to see the SM. Though I am also ignoring how much better, statistically, the SM is than the baseline IG comparison in melee, while the MC seems to be far closer to this baseline marine in-game (but the biggest turning point in melee, the two-wounds factor combined with the not-ignoring-armour factor, is still present, so that probably wouldn't change much).

[Dervag]

Interesting analysis, Glebediah. Don't know what to make of it.


I'd like to see Spatern kick a thrown gernade back, or have precongition :smallannoyed: Dark Eldar move so fast that you need 5x slow on a pict-cast to even see them, even then its a blurr.Issues of spelling aside, I'm not saying that anyone in particular is faster than Eldar. I'm saying that being able to fight Eldar doesn't mean that the speed of an enemy slower than Eldar, but faster than you, is guaranteed not to be a problem. The Eldar... don't always fight smart.

"All right, Mr. Harlequin, you use a holo-generator to make yourself a blur of dazzling light. Is that blur larger or smaller than the burst radius of a mortar bomb?"


Also, if the spech merines are recruited from the top 0,000001% of mankind, no wonder the emperium is in such deep crap. Mindraping your best people into fanatic mouthfoaming zealots does horror for any kind of development.

Nevermind the simple fact that since the emperium considers pretty much everything heresy, and that spech merines are the uber loyal terror troops, you really can't be much picky. A lot more of bloodthirsty criminals willing to do anything for a better life join the spech merine ranks than scholars with new revolutionary ideas.I don't know what you're talking about; could you cite examples? I mean, yes, the Marines don't need scholars, though it's hard to see why they would... but they also don't recruit people willy-nilly just because those people want to join. As a general rule, you don't go to them asking to sign up; they come to you.

And again, spelling aside, the Imperium has bigger troubles than the Marines, who are in some ways one of its more progressive institutions, in the same sense that McMurdo Station is placed in one of the warmest spots in Antarctica. I'd be more worried about the effects of the Inquisition, myself; one of the really significant things the Space Marines do for the Imperium is act as a counterweight to their authority in certain situations.


The thing is eldar is simply far more able to focus their attention on learning and employing skills than a human and has a far longer time frame in which to do so, considering according to xenogly there nerves are packed 6 times more densely then in a human brain. They have literally no body fat and their muscles are spiral-structured, working more like coiled springs than the cables of human muscles. Thus maxixmixng aglity and speed, where a Spartern or a Space Marine has to be overengrired to approach that caliber, even then they are slower since there sheer mass will restrict there speed compared to a lightly built but fully optimized eldar.Seriously, there is only one "x" in maximize, not three... in any event, I don't think it's that simple. If you genetically engineer humans into something inhuman, as the Space Marines surely are and the Halo Spartans possibly are, there's no way to place an upper bound on just how fast they can be, aside from the limits imposed by the laws of physics and chemistry... which are equally binding on the Eldar, spring-based musculature or no.

Among other things, being heavy doesn't guarantee that you will be slow, as any number of people who've gotten their heads handed to them in a fight by fast big guys could tell you.


If I am correct for speed wise the White Scars use gurilla warfare so they would need for speed so they are probably faster than most marines.Not quite that simple. That means they have good strategic speed, but it doesn't mean they physically move faster than average, compared to other chapters who spend more time charging into battle and less doing hit and run.

The real life Mongols who inspired the White Scars didn't ride faster than anybody else; they just kept it up longer, so their army could outrun yours over the long haul even if it couldn't do so reliably over short distances.


Except your basic power armor hasn't changed all that much in design in hundreds of thousands of years. The imperium in general seems to frown on progress. As opposed to the UNSC, given about twenty years and their new ex covenant buddies to lend them things they'd likley beat SM armor in just about every way.I dunno. That armor was the product of very advanced technology in its day; the main reason it hasn't changed is that no one in the galaxy has been able to figure out a way to do a much better job. Otherwise the SMurfs would have had to adapt or die, probably die.


Either I worded it wrong or you're misreading me. They won't copy, they'll improve. Add better armor and more plates, boost energy shields, increase censors, make better guns. 40k stays the same, halo drives to better itself. They're pretty much the exact opposite there.Yes, but in a number of areas Halo has a long, long way to go to get up into the same range 40k is already in. It's like saying that the guys with machine guns will lose to the guys with swords because the guys with swords are constantly striving to improve their swords, while the guys with machine guns mostly just kick back and hose enemies down with lead.

[Jayngfet]

The machinegun and sword is an interesting comparison, but we're comparing spartan and SM equipment.

The upgrade from Mark V to mark VI took less than a year and they were working on a few stolen covenant shields. Now they have a group not constantly attacking that has more than enough shields lying around. Given Jackal energy shields are compariativly small i'd say they can upgrade the armor in places no problem(sticking an elite type handheld shield on the back to protect there, another small one on the front. If they need to they can get a sort of energy shield plate armor, while upgrading the overall energy shield they already have). Meanwhile on the weapons front you can always try to lighten the spartan laser, or make it more powerful.

Yes halo is a far cry for 40k but they're getting there in leaps and bounds.

[crazedloon]

I think one of the issues with the actual strength of a spartan and comparing it to a SM is the ludicrous assumption that MC's ability to flip a vehicle in game is because he is strong and not just a game mechanic to allow you to continue on that vehicle. MC can flip the scorpion tank in game and even the elephant on sandtrap (I don't know if you run into one of those in game) that is ridiculous and therefore a moot point.

[tribble]

The thing is eldar is simply far more able to focus their attention on learning and employing skills than a human and has a far longer time frame in which to do so, considering according to xenogly there nerves are packed 6 times more densely then in a human brain. They have literally no body fat and their muscles are spiral-structured, working more like coiled springs than the cables of human muscles. Thus maxixmixng aglity and speed, where a Spartern or a Space Marine has to be overengrired to approach that caliber, even then they are slower since there sheer mass will restrict there speed compared to a lightly built but fully optimized eldar.

We already know GW fails biology forever, but thanks for the reminder.

Frankly, I think it depends on the Spess Mehreen. Spartan VS a scout? My money's on the spartan for reasons of experience. Spartan VS Marneus Calgar? it's not even close.

[Texas_Ben]

The heavy bolter maybe, since I believe the Imperial Guard uses it as a squad crewed heavy weapon. The normal bolter I think is at the very outside of what a normal human can handle, and I know that bog standard people can use bolt pistols OK. So MC with the heavy bolter isn't going to be winning any races, but he should be OK with the standard version
The bolters used by Marines are different from the ones made for humans. It's been stated in several sources that a normal human trying to fire an astartes bolter is likely to dislocate his arms.

In the Inquisitor's handbook, one of the 40k roleplay supplements, there is a black-market model of bolter which is designed to fire bolt shells designed for astartes bolters. The normal bolters, designed for human use, deal 1d10+4, or something like that. The bolter firing astartes bolt shells deals 2d10 damage, which is the same as the heavy bolter in-game. At any rate, astartes bolt weapons need to be specially made for marines anyway, as their power-armored hands would be far too large to work with normal-sized weapons. Conversely, MC can use guns useable by normal humans, so any space marine gear he gets his hands on is going to be oversized and awkward to use.



I think one of the issues with the actual strength of a spartan and comparing it to a SM is the ludicrous assumption that MC's ability to flip a vehicle in game is because he is strong and not just a game mechanic to allow you to continue on that vehicle. MC can flip the scorpion tank in game and even the elephant on sandtrap (I don't know if you run into one of those in game) that is ridiculous and therefore a moot point.

Yeah, a much better measure of his melee damage output is... well, his melee damage output. And while he's certainly strong, I don't see him being as strong as a marine. As to the speed argument going on, someone previously linked this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaf8CVS6cg) as an example of how quick spartans are.
I'd still say Eldar are quicker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmsNZ6fj3Q). And as you can see, they take care of them pretty good.

[Oslecamo]

I'd still say Eldar are quicker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmsNZ6fj3Q). And as you can see, they take care of them pretty good.

So DoW videos are now a valid source? Then spartans auto win. Just get Chief into a decent fortification, and the marine will charge foaming from the mouth and swinging his chainsword, allowing chief to unload all his clips on him. Hey, that's what they do in all the videos. Orks specialized in melee? CHARGE! Necron monolith? CHARGE! Eldar farseer playing bait for an ambush? CHARGE!

[crazedloon]

So DoW videos are now a valid source? Then spartans auto win. Just get Chief into a decent fortification, and the marine will charge foaming from the mouth and swinging his chainsword, allowing chief to unload all his clips on him. Hey, that's what they do in all the videos. Orks specialized in melee? CHARGE! Necron monolith? CHARGE! Eldar farseer playing bait for an ambush? CHARGE!

in all fairness that is the same tactic that the spartans use in the halo vid provided :smallwink: they just charged and jumped a bit more

also they charged in the orc vid because they needed to take the hill to drop a dropship beacon.

The monolith if I am not mistaken was surrounded by necrons which are horrid at close combat

and unfortunately the psyker must die ..... (ok maybe that last one doesn't make sense)

[Project_Mayhem]

I think Space Marines is a pretty cool guy. eh kills Haols and doesn't afraid of anything