Martial Arts

[DarkElfGangsta]

what martial arts do y'all do?
I've been doing Judo, taekwondo, Krav Maga, and Jeetkundo for around 8 years now. what martial arts do you do? give some info bout them:smallamused:

[Anonanimal]

I practiced Tang Soo Do for about 10 years, and boxed for about 5, but am fairly out of practice. It's been a while since I've been in a fight. I conditioned my fists by smacking trees and brick walls, and my knuckles are pretty tough/swollen as a result.

[Demonia]

:biggrin::biggrin:I too do Krav Maga, as well as Mauy Thai, Karate, Brazilian Ju Jitsu and wrestling, do you do cevilian Krav Maga or Military Krav Maga? :smallconfused:

Coincidently I too punch trees and walls, call me stupid but it worked for me. :smallbiggrin:

anyone do Chun Quin Tao, the most badass martial art ever invented, it's what the chinese emporors body gaurds learned and today on fifty two people in the world know it and it is so dangerous that they all have to be known by the government of the country they live in!
My uncle does it, it is SCARY!!!! :biggrin:

[Shyftir]

I studied a hybrid style called "Temple Chinese Boxing" (that's a translation of the actual name which I can barely remember.) It was mostly White-Dragon kung-fu with elements of chinese-hawaian kenpo. Plus anthing else our Sefu happened to feel like adding in. (It was more of a martial arts club, but we were under the authority of the one Sefu, others shared cross-style training on occasion.)

I also play a Medieval Combat Recreation Sport, (Not re-enactment, recreation, big difference.) While not quite a martial art in its own right, being a sport after all, it has been around long enough to get pretty sophisticated. Through it I've learned a good bit about weapons combat, due to those who brought experience with them into the sport.

So in short medium-level formal study and a good bit of informal study.

[Amiel]

Apparently, taiji quan is the greatest of all forms of martial arts if practiced at the usual speed rather than the snails pace when used for meditative, mind-body healing/health?

[Demonia]

I'll check it out but look up Chun quin tao you won't find squat 'cause nobody knows it!
Really annoying. :smallmad:

Oh Tai Chi yeah that is meant to be extreamly good, my grandmother did that, still does...funny thing is she can't go faster than the snails pace even if she tried! :smallbiggrin:

[EndlessWrath]

I did tae kwon do for a few years, Ryuki Kendo..which was a lot of beating the crap out of your enemy with two way force and quick decisive maneuvers. It was a lot more effective than Tae Kwon Do. A lot of the movements and kicks, blocks, and punches. Instead of learning them, I learned why they were effective and what to do with them. A once known highblock was actually a grapple move to pin the opponents arm. A lower block was also a trip. Things like that. I enjoyed it though :smallamused:. I did that for a few years and moved on to learning a little about as many fighting styles that I could learn.

thats been off and on 6 years of my life
-Wrath

[SurlySeraph]

I've done six years of wrestling, about two years of taekwondo, and I've currently been taking Systema classes but haven't been able to attend many due to my work schedule.

[Liffguard]

Just over five years of Brazilian Jiujitsu. I also boxed back in Uni but I'm way out of practice now and was never very good to begin with.

[fireinthehole]

i do krav maga ,mauy thai, karate, wrestling and ju jit su
i reapedly punch into bags of rice and shove my fingers into pots of water like the northen shaolin monks of china. the rice caluses the knuckles and hurts others more when you hit them and cushions the blow to you, and the water makes your joints more durible and flexible so you can use pressure point poking more efficiently without dislocating your fingers!!!!! :amused::biggrin:

[Vella_Malachite]

Wow, so many people who do exotic-sounding martial arts!

I just do your run-of-the-mill karate - there's a dojo just down the road from my house. I've been going for two, almost three years now, and our Sensei is awesome. I'll be sad if/when I have to quit because I'm moving states :smallfrown:.

[Icewalker]

I spent a couple years doing Tae Kwon Do, and stopped. It's neither the most useful nor the prettiest nor the best conditioning (at least where I was doing it) among martial arts. If I take up something else, which I will do in passing at some point or another in my life at least once:

I will likely do some Tai Chi and such for more meditation style exercise. Then potentially capoeira because I really love the style of it.

For more combative and serious martial arts, Krav Maga interests me for it's brutal efficiency, and Muay Thai (and Muay Boran) are favorites of mine, although I've always held a pretty big interest in Baguazhang as well.

[Ashen Lilies]

I've recently started Muay Thai. Been doing it for 4 months or so. I used to do Tae Kwon Do, but it was ages ago, and I'm out of practice. Doesn't stop me from habitually using a Tae Kwon Do block instead of the usual shin block while sparring though, much to my instructor's annoyance... >.>

[Perenelle]

I did Tang Soo Do for a while. Unfortunately I had to stop when we moved here, because the nearest place is an hour away and doesnt fit into my schedule. :smallfrown:

It was fun while It lasted though. and I ended up really flexible afterward. I used to be able to kick my foot up behind my head. :smalltongue:

[blackfox]

I did Judo and Aikido for a while as a kid. I just finished a class with a bunch of self-defense and MMA elements... basically focused on if someone decides to mess with you, how to put them into a lot of pain, disable them, and run away. I think it was mostly Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, and Wing Chun.

[Morty]

I'm hoping to learn some fencing one day, if that counts.

[Perenelle]

I'm hoping to learn some fencing one day, if that counts.

I've wanted to fence for a while now, but its expensive and my weeks are already packed with other things. :smallsigh:
I'll have time one day. maybe. at one point. sometime. =P

[the geekish one]

Taekwondo (ITF, not WTF), Jiujitsu, and a little bit of Judo. I've always wanted to do Muay Thai, and fencing seems fun as well. I know a couple of Krav Maga techniques, mainly because the friend I used to spar with used it. She didn't follow through with most of them, because if she did she would have broken my bones.

[Helanna]

I used to do Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, but I haven't done any martial arts in a while. I really wish I could, it would be really awesome, but there's no place around here where I could learn.


I'm hoping to learn some fencing one day, if that counts.

I USED to take fencing at my local community center, until they replaced the instructor with one who required us all to bring our own equipment that I couldn't afford . . . *grumble*

[Dragonrider]

I did Tae Kwon Do from ages 9-11 and have a brown belt, which is sorta ridiculous looking back because I had pretty good technique but no power at all. It was a McDojo situation, though. I think that quality of martial arts depends a lot more on sensei/style than on anything else.

I have, however, done Shudokan Karate for the last seven years and I'm a sho dan in that. MUCH more fulfilling, a great sensei, etc. The dojo sort of became like a second family and I miss it now I'm at college. I know there's a sensei of the same style here, because he's friends with my sensei and sometimes comes down to visit our dojo, but I just don't like him as much. He's a lot more about flash and style, much less about efficacy and power . . . and he's an excellent performer but not a great teacher.

So I'm waiting till winter break, when I get to go see my friends at the old dojo again.

In a weird twist of fate - my roommate does kung fu. Our school paired us without knowing this. How bizarre is that . . . there aren't too many girls around here who've been doing martial arts half their lives, but we both have.



I've been going for two, almost three years now, and our Sensei is awesome. I'll be sad if/when I have to quit because I'm moving states :smallfrown:.

You could look in to dojos in the new area if/when you move . . . they might not be of the same style. I switched from TKD to Shudokan when I moved from California to Oregon simply because there was no TKD offered, but it was the best decision EVER.

[DarkElfGangsta]

:biggrin::biggrin:I too do Krav Maga, as well as Mauy Thai, Karate, Brazilian Ju Jitsu and wrestling, do you do cevilian Krav Maga or Military Krav Maga? :smallconfused:

Coincidently I too punch trees and walls, call me stupid but it worked for me. :smallbiggrin:

anyone do Chun Quin Tao, the most badass martial art ever invented, it's what the chinese emporors body gaurds learned and today on fifty two people in the world know it and it is so dangerous that they all have to be known by the government of the country they live in!
My uncle does it, it is SCARY!!!! :biggrin:

Military Krav Maga. much more effective.
about knuckle conditioning - you definitely can punch hard things to make your knuckles harder, but over time you will also mess up your hand. in order to avoid that. use your fists when you do push ups. you'll get better results faster and your hand will still be usable when you're old:smallcool:

the CQT is scary, but only when done effectively, not many good teachers left from what I klnow. no dojos for that round here tho:smallyuk:

[Morty]

I USED to take fencing at my local community center, until they replaced the instructor with one who required us all to bring our own equipment that I couldn't afford . . . *grumble*

My failure to learn fencing was caused simply by lack of anyone who'd teach me where I live. Maybe now that I'm studying I'll be able to find some group or another.

[Moff Chumley]

I do a weird hybrid type thing. It's nominally Shaolin Kenpo, but at any given time, a third of our senseis are off learning other styles, which end up incorporated back into our dojo. At the moment, we've been doing a lot of Aikido, Krav Maga, & such. It's a very hard system, but quite effective. It's helpful to have senseis who are just as geeky about martial arts as we are about gaming, and take it three times as seriously. :smallcool:

[Froogleyboy]

I joust :smallamused:

[Spiryt]

All I can say that Wiaczeslaw Datsik is my idol and that I want to fight
like him.

:smalltongue:

[Erts]

Mauy Thai, Karate, Brazilian Ju Jitsu and wrestling

Those are the ones I'm going to try to learn, minus the karate. Taken Wrestling and Tae Kwon Do (which is more of a sport, but I got a nice back and side kick now, and can punch fairly well.)


Apparently, taiji quan is the greatest of all forms of martial arts if practiced at the usual speed rather than the snails pace when used for meditative, mind-body healing/health?

There is no "greatest" martial art, it varies person to person immensely, and teacher to teacher.

[Altaria87]

I do Taekwondo (and have alwyas been amused at how we have WTF in the middle of our uniform) and Ninjitsu, also a bit of a cross between Judo and Street Fighting.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Apparently, taiji quan is the greatest of all forms of martial arts if practiced at the usual speed rather than the snails pace when used for meditative, mind-body healing/health?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No, no, no.

[the geekish one]

Those are the ones I'm going to try to learn, minus the karate. Taken Wrestling and Tae Kwon Do (which is more of a sport, but I got a nice back and side kick now, and can punch fairly well.)

I know very little about wrestling, but I can tell you that WTF Taekwondo is much sportier than ITF. ITF is a little closer to the original art, and is more for finishing something quickly and effectively.

I couldn't find a good one (i.e. with a real person), but ELBOW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0ByXvrsPHI).

[Deadly]

Did a bit of Wing Tsun way back, many years ago. Never got far back then, but have been wanting to try again ever since. I really liked it. Sadly I'm in no shape to do any of the sort right now.

WT is supposedly frighteningly effective (but then, anyone will tell you that about any martial art out there, and they can't all be right can they?)... but it's not pretty at all (unless you consider raw speed pretty). I would love to do something really flashy, even if it's completely useless in an actual fight. Not sure what that would be, though.

Something involving actual weapons would be neat too.

Ah, so many dreams...

[Erts]

I know very little about wrestling, but I can tell you that WTF Taekwondo is much sportier than ITF. ITF is a little closer to the original art, and is more for finishing something quickly and effectively.

I couldn't find a good one (i.e. with a real person), but ELBOW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0ByXvrsPHI).

True, true. I mean more of the Tae Kwon Do places in my area. Not to imply that Tae Kwon Do everywhere is more of a sport. The only problem is I want to get better at grappling and ground fighting, which wrestling/judo and brazillian jiujutsu respectively are perfect for.

[the geekish one]

Absolutely, Taekwondo is terrible for grappling. Anyways, if you are attacked being able to mix it up is great. I actually have trouble switching back and forth. It's best to get really good at something, then add something new. Or start them all at once.

What sort of wrestling by the way? Greco-Roman?

[DarkElfGangsta]

Absolutely, Taekwondo is terrible for grappling. Anyways, if you are attacked being able to mix it up is great. I actually have trouble switching back and forth. It's best to get really good at something, then add something new. Or start them all at once.



I really agree. I found that Taeqwon do by itself is not very good for real fights, but mixing it up with other martial arts (Judo,Krav Maga heheh)
will make you an extremely powerful fighter.
I suppose it depends on why people study martial arts - for me it is mostly self defense, for unfortunate reasons...

[SurlySeraph]

Did a bit of Wing Tsun way back, many years ago. Never got far back then, but have been wanting to try again ever since. I really liked it. Sadly I'm in no shape to do any of the sort right now.

WT is supposedly frighteningly effective (but then, anyone will tell you that about any martial art out there, and they can't all be right can they?)... but it's not pretty at all (unless you consider raw speed pretty). I would love to do something really flashy, even if it's completely useless in an actual fight. Not sure what that would be, though.

Something involving actual weapons would be neat too.

Ah, so many dreams...

Indeed. Wing Chun (that's the spelling I've seen most often, so I'll use it here) is very effective. It has a lot of emphasis on speed, efficiency of movement, and adaptibility. Plus, ya know, Bruce Lee did it. And Bruce Lee was awesome. :smalltongue:

Balanced approaches in martial arts tend to work best; powerful kicks are great if you can land them but worthless at close range, punching's less powerful than kicking and only so useful in a grapple though it tends to come up a lot more than either kicking or pure grappling; and as much as I love grappling it leaves you open to other opponents and isn't useful if you get hit too hard before you can grab your opponent.

Of those skills, I'm definitely best at grappling. I have decent kicking technique and speed, but my legs are weak so I don't use it much. My punching technique is too slow and obvious, and I need a lot of work on it. I'm also learning grappling techniques that I didn't learn in wrestling (i.e. chokes); they're a lot of fun, and I get the hang of them pretty easily.

[Exeson]

Judo. And anyone who wants to dispute that it is a martial art is more than welcome. Benn doing it for 2 1/2 years now.

Yeah, seems like I have an affinity for it really, eye problems means I have very good balance and spatial awareness. I train four times a week, sometimes five if I have the free time/energy.

Come New Year I will begin grading for my Dan grade. Yay. :smallbiggrin:

[thorgrim29]

Why would anyone say it's not a martial art? Anyway I fenced (épée) for 2.5 years, and I'll be doing Judo starting in January.

[Deadly]

Indeed. Wing Chun (that's the spelling I've seen most often, so I'll use it here) is very effective. It has a lot of emphasis on speed, efficiency of movement, and adaptibility. Plus, ya know, Bruce Lee did it. And Bruce Lee was awesome. :smalltongue:

There's supposedly a difference between Wing Chun and Wing Tsun, but I couldn't tell what it is or how big that difference is. My understanding is that it's not a huge difference, though it's still there.

True on Bruce Lee, though :smallbiggrin:

[Exeson]

Well, in the many western forms it takes it is considered a sport rather than a martial art. As for fencing I used to do that, dabbled in foil and sabre.

[reorith]

Judo. And anyone who wants to dispute that it is a martial art is more than welcome. Benn doing it for 2 1/2 years now.

Yeah, seems like I have an affinity for it really, eye problems means I have very good balance and spatial awareness. I train four times a week, sometimes five if I have the free time/energy.

Come New Year I will begin grading for my Dan grade. Yay. :smallbiggrin:

like you, i to have studied judo, but i looked into other things because it wasn't "hardcore" enough. lol gentle way. anyway, i moved on to krav maga "contact combat" and after learning that Jigoro Kano wasn't much taller than me, i returned. no lie though, it feels weird doing things like wearing a ki and letting someone get close enough to engage a grapple, not kicking an opponent in groin, and only having to engage one other person.

[Icewalker]

Yeah, there is no 'best' martial art. What you can argue over is what the most effective martial art is (In my opinion/limited knowledge, Krav Maga), or the most whatever else. There are other 'best ___' it might be possible to come up with, but none come to mind (most pretty just seems so ridiculously subjective, but it is an element that could be covered).

[Jack Squat]

Where I studied, they called it Tae Kwon Do. In reality, my instructor was trained by the guy who taught cops in Cincinnati self defense, so it was a little more practical than standard TKD.

[Erts]

Absolutely, Taekwondo is terrible for grappling. Anyways, if you are attacked being able to mix it up is great. I actually have trouble switching back and forth. It's best to get really good at something, then add something new. Or start them all at once.

What sort of wrestling by the way? Greco-Roman?

Freestyle. In an actual fight, I won't just go for the upper body to grapple. :smalltongue:

[skywalker]

Why would anyone say it's not a martial art? Anyway I fenced (épée) for 2.5 years, and I'll be doing Judo starting in January.

Technically speaking (it has something to do with the subtleties of the Japanese language), the "do"s are intended to be less martial than the "jutsu"s. So, Judo is more sporting than Jujutsu, same with kendo (kejutsu), iaido (iaijutsu), etc.

[Amiel]

There is no "greatest" martial art, it varies person to person immensely, and teacher to teacher.

You misunderstand, I didn't mean greatest in terms of practitioner or lore of study, I meant in terms of form; taiji utilises internalisation and expression of qi or ki and adheres to the maxim "the greatest offense is defense."

[Johel]

Did 5 years of Judo.

That was great for self-confidence... until I realized that, out of the tatami, it wasn't that easy to throw somebody on the ground when said person was doing his best to keep his distances while punching me in the face every time I tried to grab him. :smallannoyed:

So, yeah, Judo is very useful to deal with somebody that is drunk (or simply has no martial experience) when you don't want to hurt him. Otherwise, that's only good for competition OR in combination with other martial arts.

I tried to box but I really couldn't hold my guard, which means I quickly got dizzy and kept missing the other guy. :smalltongue:

[MistahFixIt]

i was immensely fortunate to live in Toronto for a long period of time, and happened to attend a martial arts academy with a Zui Quan* instructor for 3 years...

However I have since moved, and to further my education in the art, I would have to self-teach by instructional manual :smallfrown:

Also, I took a year of Goju Ryu Style Karate, but I didn't find that to be nearly as much fun.

*(roll your Wikipedia checks to find out what this is :smallamused: )

[Shyftir]

To the guy who was talking about getting weapons involved, my understanding is that Filipino fighting arts are some of the quickest to include weapons. (Escrima, Knives, etc.)

I'm crazy interested in Uisce Beatha Bata Rince. Which is a form of Irish martial arts, only being taught by one particular Sifu who lives in Toronto. Seeing as I do not live in Toronto I'm unlikely to get the opportunity. It's his family's hereditary stick-fighting techniques, which is why he is currently the only person teaching it.

[DarkElfGangsta]

Did 5 years of Judo.

That was great for self-confidence... until I realized that, out of the tatami, it wasn't that easy to throw somebody on the ground when said person was doing his best to keep his distances while punching me in the face every time I tried to grab him. :smallannoyed:

So, yeah, Judo is very useful to deal with somebody that is drunk (or simply has no martial experience) when you don't want to hurt him. Otherwise, that's only good for competition OR in combination with other martial arts.

I tried to box but I really couldn't hold my guard, which means I quickly got dizzy and kept missing the other guy. :smalltongue:

you gotta initiate the contact. also judo is much more effective when mixed with a more offensive martial art like krav maga or karate.

[Dragonrider]

You misunderstand, I didn't mean greatest in terms of practitioner or lore of study, I meant in terms of form; taiji utilises internalisation and expression of qi or ki and adheres to the maxim "the greatest offense is defense."

Still totally subjective and dependent on instructor. :smalltongue:

[Frozen_Feet]

I've recently started practicing Krav-Maga and Goju-ryu Karate - while I've learned the basics yet, the physical and mental aspects of training appeal to me, and I can say I'll be training at least the latter for a long while - the Krav-Maga sessions are held a bit too far away. They do a lot ot keep me fit, and I like learning dirty tricks to humiliate potential threats.

[Dragonrider]

I've recently started practicing Krav-Maga and Goju-ryu Karate - while I've learned the basics yet, the physical and mental aspects of training appeal to me, and I can say I'll be training at least the latter for a long while - the Krav-Maga sessions are held a bit too far away. They do a lot ot keep me fit, and I like learning dirty tricks to humiliate potential threats.

Goju is the one with only 12 (or 14, depending on the dojo) katas, right?

[DarkElfGangsta]

I've recently started practicing Krav-Maga and Goju-ryu Karate - while I've learned the basics yet, the physical and mental aspects of training appeal to me, and I can say I'll be training at least the latter for a long while - the Krav-Maga sessions are held a bit too far away. They do a lot ot keep me fit, and I like learning dirty tricks to humiliate potential threats.

that's....not the karav maga I know of.
maybe youre thinking of the some other israely MA? maybe KAPAP ?
the purpose of krav maga is to disarm, incapacitate, and to eliminate fast, efficientaly, and with minimum damage to both sides (unless youre goin for eliminate), never to humiliate.

[Jack Squat]

that's....not the karav maga I know of.
maybe youre thinking of the some other israely MA? maybe KAPAP ?
the purpose of krav maga is to disarm, incapacitate, and to eliminate fast, efficientaly, and with minimum damage to both sides (unless youre goin for eliminate), never to humiliate.

I think the humiliation thing he's getting at is from moves that make the attacker lose his will to fight near instantaneously. My friends always joke around that Krav is the MA of nutshots.

[Frozen_Feet]

Goju is the one with only 12 (or 14, depending on the dojo) katas, right?
Yup. As I've understood it, it's one of the more traditional and 'meat-and-potatoes' style of karate.

As for the humiliation part, it is quite humiliating for many attackers to be taken down quickly and efficiently... when they thought the defender was weaker and easily taken down. Of course, army being such a 'manly' place, I sometimes get lots of flak for using 'girly' moves, from those who don't grasp the idea behind it. (Oh, so you're not supposed to push someone in the eyes, but punching their nose flat is fair? I see...)

[Shyftir]

No such thing as a fair fight. The first rule of self-defense I was taught is "Cheat!" Well actually, first rule of everything for guys is "Cover your nuts." but after that, "Cheat!"
Rule two was, "Go for the eyes or knees."

But then again my instructor DID teach women's self-defense classes too.

[Icewalker]

I'm not sure what you mean by minimally damaging for Krav Maga. I mean, I suppose you may end up breaking fewer bones than in other martial arts, but...the spots which are targets in Krav Maga are the spots which are banned in most other martial arts, and I don't think shots to the groin, eyes, or neck can be considered minimally damaging. :smalltongue:

[Dragonrider]

Yup. As I've understood it, it's one of the more traditional and 'meat-and-potatoes' style of karate.

That's kind of what I like. :smalltongue: We have all the Goju katas in Shudokan, but a lot more . . . I think I know something like 35 and my sensei probably knows hundreds. We definitely focus on kata more than anything else, and technique . . . not much sparring. This, my sensei says, is because a kata is more like a real fight than sparring is. I can totally see that . . . you're not holding back the way you do when you have rules and padding.

We do some weapons too, but I don't really like them that much. I can use a bo and sai and I started learning tonfa (sp?) but, like I said . . . not much into that. I like empty-hand better.

[Johel]

No such thing as a fair fight. The first rule of self-defense I was taught is "Cheat!" Well actually, first rule of everything for guys is "Cover your nuts." but after that, "Cheat!"
Rule two was, "Go for the eyes or knees."

But then again my instructor DID teach women's self-defense classes too.

What do you mean, "go for the eyes" ?
Like, with the fingers, hook-style ? :smalleek:

Isn't that a bit excessive ? I mean, there surely are "life-or-dead" situations where you'll have to grab every possible advantage. But poking somebody's eye is maaaaaybe a tad too much in a mere brawl...and those are the ones that happen the most often.

[Mando Knight]

(You spelled tonfa right, DeeRee. Spellcheckers just irrationally hate the word)

I'd like to get into some of the Asian martial arts some time, especially Judo and some kind of mixed armed/unarmed striking style.

As to actual experience, I've got a year or so of fencing (epee, and a few bouts of saber), and apparently picking its subtleties pretty quick. Haven't bothered to go to tournaments yet, so I'm still unranked...

[Project_Mayhem]

I've been going to Kung-fu classes for a couple of terms now. We learn Praying Mantis (螳螂拳, or tánglángquán assuming wikipedia is accurate) style, from a guy in the Wu-Tan family, although he specialises in Baji and Pigua. Which are awesome.

[SurlySeraph]

To the guy who was talking about getting weapons involved, my understanding is that Filipino fighting arts are some of the quickest to include weapons. (Escrima, Knives, etc.)

I'm crazy interested in Uisce Beatha Bata Rince. Which is a form of Irish martial arts, only being taught by one particular Sifu who lives in Toronto. Seeing as I do not live in Toronto I'm unlikely to get the opportunity. It's his family's hereditary stick-fighting techniques, which is why he is currently the only person teaching it.

Yep. Filipino martial arts were basically designed to fight off the Spanish. They put a high emphasis on gaining practical skills quickly, and train you with weapons first because in warfare you're probably going to use a weapon before you resort to using your bare hands. I'd love to study Eskrima if I had time and could find an instructor.


What do you mean, "go for the eyes" ?
Like, with the fingers, hook-style ? :smalleek:

Isn't that a bit excessive ? I mean, there surely are "life-or-dead" situations where you'll have to grab every possible advantage. But poking somebody's eye is maaaaaybe a tad too much in a mere brawl...and those are the ones that happen the most often.

Krav Maga was invented by a Jewish boxer in Czechslovakia in the 1930s; he taught it to his community to help them fight off the police. It's designed for life-and-death situations.

[Dragonrider]

Yep. Filipino martial arts were basically designed to fight off the Spanish. They put a high emphasis on gaining practical skills quickly, and train you with weapons first because in warfare you're probably going to use a weapon before you resort to using your bare hands. I'd love to study Eskrima if I had time and could find an instructor.

One of my favorite things about Okinawan styles is that they were developed to fight the Japanese - Okinawans were apparently not allowed to have weapons, so everything they used could double as a farm implement.

[Exeson]

like you, i to have studied judo, but i looked into other things because it wasn't "hardcore" enough. lol gentle way. anyway, i moved on to krav maga "contact combat" and after learning that Jigoro Kano wasn't much taller than me, i returned. no lie though, it feels weird doing things like wearing a ki and letting someone get close enough to engage a grapple, not kicking an opponent in groin, and only having to engage one other person.

Well, that's the thing I don't get. A martial art is a practice, for example in a fight I doubt I would use much Judo, if any, however Judo trains my body and mind by teaching me basic combat skills (Balance, movement, spatial awareness, reflexes etc.) I do get a bit annoyed when people assume that just because the actual combat techniques and not the most useful in a fight means that the art itself has no value.

[Frozen_Feet]

What do you mean, "go for the eyes" ?
Like, with the fingers, hook-style ? :smalleek:

Isn't that a bit excessive ? I mean, there surely are "life-or-dead" situations where you'll have to grab every possible advantage. But poking somebody's eye is maaaaaybe a tad too much in a mere brawl...and those are the ones that happen the most often.
Pushing or poking*) someone lightly in the eyes is uncomfortable, but not actually harmful - a decent punch, on the other hand, will always leave a bruise, at the very least, and can break teeth, jaws and noses. Because of this, it's funny how grown men are so averse about the former, while gleefully participating in the latter.

And yes, 'self defence' often equates with 'fighting dirty', when it doesn't equate with 'running away, fast'.

*) Yes, a quick jab to the eyes is harmful, for the same reason a punch is - it doesn't give the target time to fall back. Pushing the eyes works exactly because people naturally fear it - they will instinctively move away, loosen their grip etc., despite the fact that you're not doing any lasting harm.

[Deadly]

To the guy who was talking about getting weapons involved, my understanding is that Filipino fighting arts are some of the quickest to include weapons. (Escrima, Knives, etc.)

I guess that was me. Around here Escrima is very often combined with Wing Tsun, I suppose they complement each other pretty well, even if they have different origins. I never got to train Escrima before I stopped with the WT, but if I ever get back into this sort of thing I'm most likely going to include Escrima.

[MountainKing]

I don't actively practice any martial arts; no availability. It'd be pretty much totally impossible for me, but I've always kind of dreamed about learning drunken master. :smallbiggrin:

[Kilmrak]

I used to box a few years ago but I recently found a Dojo that teaches Goju Ryu Karate and find it incrediby effective. Ive been going for about 3 months now but they also teach me other styles like Jui Jitsu and Muay Thai because every one there comes from different disciplines and we all colaborate to find the best combination for the individual.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I don't actively practice any martial arts; no availability. It'd be pretty much totally impossible for me, but I've always kind of dreamed about learning drunken master. :smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty sure you mean Drunken Boxing. Drunken Master is a Jackie Chan movie.

[Jack Squat]

What do you mean, "go for the eyes" ?
Like, with the fingers, hook-style ? :smalleek:

Isn't that a bit excessive ? I mean, there surely are "life-or-dead" situations where you'll have to grab every possible advantage. But poking somebody's eye is maaaaaybe a tad too much in a mere brawl...and those are the ones that happen the most often.

The way to win fights is to take the mindset that if you lose, you die. If you fight for your life, you're much more likely to come out alive than if you try to avoid being "excessive". However, you stop when the threat is gone, whether that means they run off, are pinned, dead, or otherwise no longer capable of harming you.

Now, if you're sparring, it's best to take another mindset - as questions may be raised as to why you broke your partner's arm and crushed his windpipe; but in an actual fight, everything's fair game.

[Altaria87]

No such thing as a fair fight. The first rule of self-defense I was taught is "Cheat!" Well actually, first rule of everything for guys is "Cover your nuts." but after that, "Cheat!"
Rule two was, "Go for the eyes or knees."

But then again my instructor DID teach women's self-defense classes too.
What about: "Always try to ensure you're on the OUTSIDE of an attack, so the other hand can't get to you"?

[Egiam]

I've done European fencing for a while now, but I have taken a several month break to study Aikido.

[MountainKing]

I'm pretty sure you mean Drunken Boxing. Drunken Master is a Jackie Chan movie.

I do. I'm almost 100% percent certain that I do *not* have a good matchup between the style and my body type to actually get into it. Such a thing would require mass atrophy and the removal of bone mass. :smalleek:

[Telonius]

I studied the art of turning enemies into friends.

More recently, I've started thinking about some more physical forms of martial arts. Main reason being the birth of my daughter. My vague plan is that by the time she's 12, have her be good enough to kick the butt of any of the local boys, so lazy Tel doesn't have to. :smallbiggrin: Also, possibly take classes at the same time she does. Any pointers on that? Good styles to learn for beginners?

[SurlySeraph]

There are plenty of karate and taekwondo classes for kids, often judo as well. You... kind of can't have a six-year-old do Muay Thai.
There are a lot of things useful for actual fighting, such as learning to take a punch, that might not really be ethical to train a small child in. And in my experience kids who take martial arts often assume they're better fighters than they are, and often get a bit belligerent.
I guess making sure she's in good shape would be the biggest factor. Running, maybe gymnastics (but not on the intense levels where anorexia becomes a predictor of success), soccer, pushups and situps, etc.

[Exeson]

I studied the art of turning enemies into friends.

More recently, I've started thinking about some more physical forms of martial arts. Main reason being the birth of my daughter. My vague plan is that by the time she's 12, have her be good enough to kick the butt of any of the local boys, so lazy Tel doesn't have to. :smallbiggrin: Also, possibly take classes at the same time she does. Any pointers on that? Good styles to learn for beginners?

Well the way I have seen it taught Judo is a pretty good one to start small kids on. If it is taught well Karate is pretty good too, because they are two fairly popular martial arts and so the chances of getting a sensei who is good at teaching smaller children would be better.

[Erts]

You misunderstand, I didn't mean greatest in terms of practitioner or lore of study, I meant in terms of form; taiji utilises internalisation and expression of qi or ki and adheres to the maxim "the greatest offense is defense."


Still totally subjective and dependent on instructor. :smalltongue:

What she said... Many teachers teach something they call traditional tai chi (as it is known in these parts) but really has nothing to do with it in the traditional sense. Also, many many martial arts adhere to that maxim, some even training in how to escape confrontations.


Also, possibly take classes at the same time she does. Any pointers on that? Good styles to learn for beginners?

While Surly is right in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Judo are all good for beginners, I should caution you that some of them may make your daughter dependent on a certain style, and not have good instructors. I would encourage you to look at the wikihow articles for finding a martial art for your kid (http://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Martial-Art-for-Your-Kids) and the one on the basics of stand up fighting. (http://www.wikihow.com/Understand-the-Basics-of-Standup-Fighting)

Always throughly asses a place before going, visit classes to make sure you like them.

[skywalker]

The way to win fights is to take the mindset that if you lose, you die. If you fight for your life, you're much more likely to come out alive than if you try to avoid being "excessive". However, you stop when the threat is gone, whether that means they run off, are pinned, dead, or otherwise no longer capable of harming you.

I agree here. Even in a "brawl," something can easily happen that can kill you.

If you aren't fighting for your life, then why are you fighting?


Also, possibly take classes at the same time she does. Any pointers on that? Good styles to learn for beginners?

Don't send her to the crap like "Little Dragons," "Kid Kick," etc. Any school worth going to won't teach kids under 7 because it knows it's not a daycare. Which leads into: Don't use a "daycare school." The purpose should be to teach your child a competent product while charging you a reasonable price for it. Any attitudes about getting the kids out of your hair, getting them "a little exercise" for an hour should be dismissed. The only thing worse than not knowing how to defend yourself is thinking you know how, or knowing how to bully other children. So do your homework and find a good school. The "kids" curriculum should be very similar to the adults', altho of course less intense.

[Erts]

A question I've had:
Judo "vs" Wrestling?

Not so much as which is the better style, (there is no better style!) but what are the main differences in style, technique, learning, use, practise, etc?
Anyone have any input on this topic?

I'm wrestling now, so can anyone tell me what differences that I would find in Judo?

[SurlySeraph]

Assuming you're American, freestyle wrestling puts a lot more emphasis on groundfighting. Judo is primarily about throws and trips. If you're studying Mongolian or Greco-Roman wrestling, the differences are considerably smaller. There are a few throws and trips I've learned from the co-instructor in the Systema classes I'm taking (who's studied judo) that are a bit different from anything I learned in wrestling. However, judo seems pretty easy to pick up once you have some wrestling experience, and it gives you more ways to get your opponent to ground from his feet from more positions.

[Worira]

What about: "Always try to ensure you're on the OUTSIDE of an attack, so the other hand can't get to you"?

Oh, you and your actual effective fighting knowledge. Don't you know that any fight can be won by strikes to an easily-guarded area that has little to no effect on anyone with a bit of adrenaline in their system?

[Dragonrider]

Re: Kids in martial arts:

My sensei doesn't take kids under seven for the simple reason that even if they build decent technique, he doesn't promote anyone to sho dan ho (probationary black belt) under the age of 14 in most cases and 12 or 13 if he thinks you're up to it; he won't give a full black belt before the age of sixteen for simple reasons of maturity. Being a black belt in our dojo means teaching the beginner class and providing a model for younger/lower-ranking students . . . and of course there's a question of size.

From my personal experience teaching . . . I think certainly some kids can handle it at 7 but some who've come into our dojo probably should have waited till 10 or 11. I can't think of any in that category that stuck around long. I've known some 15 or 16-year-olds who weren't really mature enough for it . . . but the nice thing is that they're pretty self-selecting. If they start just to learn how to beat people up, usually they don't end up sticking around very long. :smalltongue:

[Demonia]

Military Krav Maga. much more effective.
about knuckle conditioning - you definitely can punch hard things to make your knuckles harder, but over time you will also mess up your hand. in order to avoid that. use your fists when you do push ups. you'll get better results faster and your hand will still be usable when you're old:smallcool:

the CQT is scary, but only when done effectively, not many good teachers left from what I klnow. no dojos for that round here tho:smallyuk:

Knucle conditioning, thanks a lot man, good to know! :smallbiggrin:

[DarkElfGangsta]

Knucle conditioning, thanks a lot man, good to know! :smallbiggrin:

no problema amigo:smallamused:

[Shyftir]

Oh, you and your actual effective fighting knowledge. Don't you know that any fight can be won by strikes to an easily-guarded area that has little to no effect on anyone with a bit of adrenaline in their system?

If you snap a guy's knee with a powerful kick, it doesn't matter how much adrenaline he has, you can get away simply by running.

Also no matter the adrenaline, if you blind the guy even temporarily its a huge advantage, also you can probably get away by simply running at that point.

My self-defense classes focused on not ending up dead not in killing the other guy, oh and we were taught not to go for the crotch shot because it can be pretty easily overcome through adrenaline.

The stuff about staying outside was present too, it just wasn't in the first couple of maxims shared with us.

[Whammydill]

Before I went in the Army I took 4 years of Aikido(non-competetive tomiki tailored for *real* encounters not contrived dojo crap.) When I was stationed in D.C. I did alot of western martial arts. German and Italian longsword (Liechtenauer, Fiore...etc,) Also started on Italian rapier (mostly Capo Ferro, and a little Fabris.) Now that I'm back in Ohio I've only done a little Brazillian Jiu-jitsu, but haven't done that for a while because of $$$/time constraints.

Now I just practice my weapons and my fundamentals from the others. I look at my practice weapons and weep because there aren't any WMA groups near me.

[Zaggab]

I recently started training wushu (kung fu), but my club focus more on form and show than actual sparring. According the club's website, they practice mostly long fist, and some preying mantis and south fist. Though I don't know enough to know any difference between the different styles, and the instructors don't really seem to care.

[rakkoon]

7 years of karate, 5 years of jiu-jitsu (that's how they spelled it) and 12 years of ninpo (ninjutsu) now and counting. Still immense fun, you've got weapons, throwing, pressure points, kicking, grapling,...
Our sensei added some grapling gloves and boxing gloves because everbody's watching MMA now and we might as well have some fun too.
We can't use our best techniques but it's good for the fighting spirit.
The best part is that actually we have no rules since there are no competitions. So eyes, groin, ears, everything is fair game.

I do it for fun and self-defense, not for the fighting or championships.

[Worira]

If you snap a guy's knee with a powerful kick, it doesn't matter how much adrenaline he has, you can get away simply by running.

Also no matter the adrenaline, if you blind the guy even temporarily its a huge advantage, also you can probably get away by simply running at that point.

My self-defense classes focused on not ending up dead not in killing the other guy, oh and we were taught not to go for the crotch shot because it can be pretty easily overcome through adrenaline.

The stuff about staying outside was present too, it just wasn't in the first couple of maxims shared with us.

How exactly are you going to shatter a kneecap with a kick?

[Dragonrider]

Before I went in the Army I took 4 years of Aikido(non-competetive tomiki tailored for *real* encounters not contrived dojo crap.)

Hey. There's nothing wrong with dojo. It might not be *quite* as real-life, but it works. I've had the experience of someone coming up and grabbing me from behind as a joke and nearly hurting them because it's reflex at this point.

[Worira]

There's nothing wrong with dojo in general, but there are definitely a lot of dojo that teach Aikido, and TMA in general, in an ineffective manner. To be honest, yours kind of sounds like one. Sparring is an absolutely vital part of training in any martial art, and it absolutely cannot be replaced by kata. Form is important, yes, but so is the ability to apply it.

[Jack Squat]

How exactly are you going to shatter a kneecap with a kick?

You kick low, hitting the knee or around it. It snaps the leg straight, and since you kick through an object and not to it, you drive the joint in the wrong direction.

I've always been taught that crotch hits are good, but they aren't necessarily a one-hit wonder. Of course, The key here as well is hitting through, meaning aim for their throat through their groin. It may not have a crippling effect on someone, but it's still going to hurt.

[Dragonrider]

There's nothing wrong with dojo in general, but there are definitely a lot of dojo that teach Aikido, and TMA in general, in an ineffective manner. To be honest, yours kind of sounds like one. Sparring is an absolutely vital part of training in any martial art, and it absolutely cannot be replaced by kata. Form is important, yes, but so is the ability to apply it.

But kata teaches power. Sparring by the rules of karate is all about control. Which is a good thing as well - but means that pretty much the most dangerous person you can spar is a middle color belt, because they're starting to get technique but have little control over it yet.

And though we don't spar much, two-man applications are a significant part of what we do. Grabs, attacks, etc. Sparring creates a very artificial environment because the rules are so strict.

We may be working under different definitions of "sparring", here . . . .

[Whammydill]

Hey. There's nothing wrong with dojo. It might not be *quite* as real-life, but it works. I've had the experience of someone coming up and grabbing me from behind as a joke and nearly hurting them because it's reflex at this point.


Ahh, I didn't mean to sound like I was ripping the dojo. Aikido isn't exactly *real world applicable* right out of the box. It's a soft art(yeah...right...devastating is the word I'd use,) and has a very long learning curve. It can take years before you are good enough with the fundamentals to rely on them alone for self-defense. My school just focused more on free-form randori than the competetive nature that alot of Tomiki/Shodakan schools do. I've been to competitive schools and its a different ballgame, it was more a sport than martial art, which gives it the same problem Judoka run into. .*It may be a sport but I can still ruin your day with it.* Anyone who thinks otherwise may be in for a surprise. This competition also sets up the aforementioned *contrived dojo crap* which doesn't do you a whole lot of good on the street out of the box.

I've had to use my aikido several times to defend myself with, it works, it just doesn't work the way it works in the dojo, thats just something that has to be witnessed to realise I guess. I demonstrated this to one of my tae kwon do/karateka friends who had done many competitions, none of them full contact. I told him not to hold back and that I would (didn't want to mutilate him,) and of course his instinct went back to what he learned as rote, go for the contact, not full intent. Yeah he got his point with an overly fast but not effective *touch* but my Irimi-nage helped him meet the floor and he ceased to be a threat, which is what self-defense is about.



I just think knowing the limitations of your art and supplementing it is about the wisest thing one can do in terms of self defense. They all have their weak points, anyone who thinks otherwise has too much pride or whatever. The dojo isn't the street, and the street isn't the dojo. It takes effort to blend the two realisticly

[Project_Mayhem]

You kick low, hitting the knee or around it. It snaps the leg straight, and since you kick through an object and not to it, you drive the joint in the wrong direction.

I've always been taught that crotch hits are good, but they aren't necessarily a one-hit wonder. Of course, The key here as well is hitting through, meaning aim for their throat through their groin. It may not have a crippling effect on someone, but it's still going to hurt.

Yeah, by moving in as you stomp, you can totally screw the leg up. And crotch hits, like nose punches, are risky if the person is on drugs, or even high on adrenaline, as they will just ignore the pain.

Edit:


I just think knowing the limitations of your art and supplementing it is about the wisest thing one can do in terms of self defense. They all have their weak points, anyone who thinks otherwise has too much pride or whatever.

or has learned Chinese martial arts properly :smalltongue:

[Jack Squat]

Yeah, by moving in as you stomp, you can totally screw the leg up. And crotch hits, like nose punches, are risky if the person is on drugs, or even high on adrenaline, as they will just ignore the pain.

If they're at the point that they can't feel/ignore pain, not much is really going to help you besides a "kill shot" anyways. Which brings me back to my first point - fight like your life depends on it, because it does.

[Shyftir]

How exactly are you going to shatter a kneecap with a kick?

I never said shatter a knee-cap. All you gotta do is hyper-extend the knee and your opponent can't move at more than a hobble.

Causing a hyper-extended knee isn't real hard. In fact one of my friends, was helping teach a women's self-defense class and being used as a practice partner, when a young woman, (whose martial arts experience was nill,) executed said self-defense technique a little too well and put him on crutches for two months. My friend on the other hand had been doing TKD for years at that point.

So we were told to try the snap kick to the knee if it was open.

[Erts]

or has learned Chinese martial arts properly :smalltongue:

Not trying to start a flame war, but can you groundfight as well as Brazillian Jiujutsu-ist? Every art has weaknesses, and everyone has personal preferences.

[Geddoe]

But kata teaches power. Sparring by the rules of karate is all about control. Which is a good thing as well - but means that pretty much the most dangerous person you can spar is a middle color belt, because they're starting to get technique but have little control over it yet.


Depends on the style. At the dojo I train at, we try to do 1 session of sparring every two weeks. Some are just cardio rounds with lots of control, but sometimes one of the other students is training for one of the knockdown tournaments a couple months out. In that case, they need to be able to take a hit and controlled taps won't help. Most of the knockdown styles are likely full speed and power with pads for training and losing the pads for belt tests and high level tournaments. I know that come this spring, when I can try for my belt, I need to be ready for 6 back to back, no pad rounds with full contact. And that is just for 6th kyu(yellow in this case).

[Worira]

With regards to knee kicks: Even hyperextending an opponent's knee is near-impossible unless the joint is locked and bearing weight. On an even slightly bent knee - that is, anyone in a fighting stance - it just won't work. And Shyftir, you didn't say shatter, but you did say snap, which suggests more than hyperextending.

And Jack, there's a difference between pain and injury. No matter how high someone's pain tolerance, a solid knockout punch will knock someone out solidly.

Dragonrider: Yes, I think we do have a different definition of sparring. Matt Thornton has expressed this much better than I'll be able to, so I'll just give you a link to a video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#) and an FAQ. (http://www.ryoishintoryu.com/Aliveness.htm)

[DarkElfGangsta]

to the guys who spar:
do you use armor, or just have a special uniform?
do you have limitations (power, areas allowed to hit, etc.)?

[skywalker]

You kick low, hitting the knee or around it. It snaps the leg straight, and since you kick through an object and not to it, you drive the joint in the wrong direction.

Also good to come from the side. This really helps against big people with tough heads. Some guys, even if they're all hopped up, they've still got a glass jaw. But some don't. For those who don't, well, the bigger a person is, the more their knees have to put up with. You see it all the time in football. It doesn't take much pressure in the wrong direction (especially from the side) to blow a knee and leave you on the ground. Even if you can't feel the pain, your leg is not going to function to put you in a position to fight.


I've always been taught that crotch hits are good, but they aren't necessarily a one-hit wonder. Of course, The key here as well is hitting through, meaning aim for their throat through their groin. It may not have a crippling effect on someone, but it's still going to hurt.

Well, here's the thing. You have to hit the target specifically. You can frighten some jokers just by getting in the area, showing them you mean business. But to truly incapacitate someone no questions, you've got to hit the... "jewels" specifically. Hit those, and it's another one of those "it doesn't matter if they can feel it" situations.

All of this was taught to me by a small guy who was used to fighting bigger people. It wasn't official curriculum at my school, it was learned in the back of the room before and after class. :smallwink:


But kata teaches power. Sparring by the rules of karate is all about control. Which is a good thing as well - but means that pretty much the most dangerous person you can spar is a middle color belt, because they're starting to get technique but have little control over it yet.

Some of what you say is true. However, true control does not mean "you can't hit someone." It means "you can turn off hitting someone for the purposes of training, while still getting realistic training. I've watched black belts spar without ever touching each other and trust me, I would never mess with any of them in a dark alley.

Breaking things (boards, etc) and heavy bags teach power no question.


Ahh, I didn't mean to sound like I was ripping the dojo. Aikido isn't exactly *real world applicable* right out of the box. It's a soft art(yeah...right...devastating is the word I'd use,) and has a very long learning curve. It can take years before you are good enough with the fundamentals to rely on them alone for self-defense. My school just focused more on free-form randori than the competetive nature that alot of Tomiki/Shodakan schools do. I've been to competitive schools and its a different ballgame, it was more a sport than martial art, which gives it the same problem Judoka run into. .*It may be a sport but I can still ruin your day with it.* Anyone who thinks otherwise may be in for a surprise. This competition also sets up the aforementioned *contrived dojo crap* which doesn't do you a whole lot of good on the street out of the box.

One thing you gain from a "sport" mentality is, generally, a higher level of fitness (which is key in real fighting) than from the "non-sport" mentality. Also, a "match" situation is good training for using your skills under pressure. There is no pressure in the studio, whereas at the tournament, there is. This is the mentality put forward by a lot of armed defense experts, that shooting fast-paced tournaments is important training for defensive shooting because it puts you in a stressful situation where you have to act quickly to win. Just like a "real-world" situation.


Not trying to start a flame war, but can you groundfight as well as Brazillian Jiujutsu-ist? Every art has weaknesses, and everyone has personal preferences.

My personal preference is not to die, so I train BJJ :smallwink:


Depends on the style. At the dojo I train at, we try to do 1 session of sparring every two weeks. Some are just cardio rounds with lots of control, but sometimes one of the other students is training for one of the knockdown tournaments a couple months out. In that case, they need to be able to take a hit and controlled taps won't help. Most of the knockdown styles are likely full speed and power with pads for training and losing the pads for belt tests and high level tournaments. I know that come this spring, when I can try for my belt, I need to be ready for 6 back to back, no pad rounds with full contact. And that is just for 6th kyu(yellow in this case).

That's rough dude. Although once every 2 weeks seems pretty rare (not if you're getting knocked around tho!). We sparred almost every night at my old stand-up studio, and of course in BJJ we "roll" every night for probably the last 15 mins of class.


With regards to knee kicks: Even hyperextending an opponent's knee is near-impossible unless the joint is locked and bearing weight. On an even slightly bent knee - that is, anyone in a fighting stance - it just won't work. And Shyftir, you didn't say shatter, but you did say snap, which suggests more than hyperextending.

Knee doesn't have to be locked. As I said, watch football. You can ruin someone's ligaments for them very quickly. Which "snap" is a perfectly good term for.


Dragonrider: Yes, I think we do have a different definition of sparring. Matt Thornton has expressed this much better than I'll be able to, so I'll just give you a link to a video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#) and an FAQ. (http://www.ryoishintoryu.com/Aliveness.htm)

Good ol' Matt Thornton. He makes a very good point. At the same time, sometimes I think he gets carried away. A little too sermony for my tastes.


to the guys who spar:
do you use armor, or just have a special uniform?
do you have limitations (power, areas allowed to hit, etc.)?

My old school, it was always "don't hit each other." Of course, the unspoken rule for higher belts was "hit each other lightly." We used pads but they weren't supposed to be needed. Nobody wore armor. At my ex-girlfriend's school, everybody wore armor, but sparred less vigorously than at my school. For BJJ, it's "don't break the person you're rolling with."

[Worira]

It varies. In unarmed martial arts, the protective gear I've generally worn has been a mouth guard, cup, and padded gloves. With rapiers, I wear a fencing mask and usually a gorget, leather gloves, and a cup if grappling and kicks are used. Longswords are very difficult to spar with, due to the amount of damage even a blunt one can do. As for limitations, the amount of force used varies, and the UFC rules (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules) are a pretty good guideline to forbidden areas/attacks.

EDIT: In both cases, shorts or sweatpants and a t-shirt are what I wear.

[Dragonrider]

Some of what you say is true. However, true control does not mean "you can't hit someone." It means "you can turn off hitting someone for the purposes of training, while still getting realistic training. I've watched black belts spar without ever touching each other and trust me, I would never mess with any of them in a dark alley.

Ah. That wasn't what I meant at all. :smalltongue:

[Geddoe]

That's rough dude. Although once every 2 weeks seems pretty rare (not if you're getting knocked around tho!). We sparred almost every night at my old stand-up studio, and of course in BJJ we "roll" every night for probably the last 15 mins of class.

My old school, it was always "don't hit each other." Of course, the unspoken rule for higher belts was "hit each other lightly." We used pads but they weren't supposed to be needed. Nobody wore armor. At my ex-girlfriend's school, everybody wore armor, but sparred less vigorously than at my school. For BJJ, it's "don't break the person you're rolling with."

The two week thing is minimum. We sparred once a week throughout November because two people were going for brown last Saturday(they succeeded, though one cracked 2 ribs in his 4 round out of 10 and had to fight the rest of the rounds with the injury).

And by spar I mean, the last half hour of the one hour class is sparring. With shin guards and mma gloves, as hard as you and your partner want to go. 2-3 minute rounds, 1 minute break. Sit out only if injured, not for cardio reasons.

I'm still at the "afraid of being hit" stage, so I need to start toughening up since I do love sparring. Knee on knee really hurts when you try to check a leg kick though.

Rules are no groin shots and no head punching(not realistic, but kind of a necessity when you need to do up to 20 minutes of bare knuckle fighting in a row)

[reorith]

Geddoe, one of the surest ways to get over a fear of getting hit is getting stabbed. this is pretty much what did it for me. i don't recommend it. perhaps you could spar with an individual who is equally apprehensive about getting hit and sort of escalate the intensity of your sparring over some sessions maybe? idk i'm trying to be constructive. i fear i'm not good at it.

[SurlySeraph]

Uh, yeah, getting stabbed is generally a bad idea. I'd keep doing normal sparring, but try to get into a more aggressive mindset. If you're hitting your opponent it won't bother you so much that you're getting hit. As reorith said, scaling up the intensity/ strength you hit with gradually helps. Not "gradually" as in months; more over the course of the sparring session, and more next practice, etc.

[RedMorganne]

I'm kind of small build, and not strong, and my life got ruined because I was not able to repel an attacker. what kind of martial art can I learn that suits my build?

[Jack Squat]

I'm kind of small build, and not strong, and my life got ruined because I was not able to repel an attacker. what kind of martial art can I learn that suits my build?

Nike.

Seriously though, I'd look at some self-defense classes rather than a 'true' martial art. It also sounds like you could benefit from learning the techniques behind a stun gun or pepper spray (due to your small build), and one of these courses should cover it to some extent.

[DarkElfGangsta]

whoops wrong qoute.
jack, what martial arts do you practice? you seem to have a deep knowledge about them.

[reorith]

I'm kind of small build, and not strong, and my life got ruined because I was not able to repel an attacker. what kind of martial art can I learn that suits my build?

krav maga. i got severely rocked by a girl that couldn't have weighed more than 90lbs. i was so embarrassed i stopped sparring at my school, went to a boxing gym worked on my technique and skills with some MMA guys that weighed significantly more than me, returned feeling confident and then got schooled again :/ like had i been some sort of aggressor/attacker, she had a sufficient level of proficiency to make me regret my criminal endeavor.

also, Glock-fu. i found a second hand Glock 19 in very good condition for $378.

[Jack Squat]

I don't actively study anything at the moment. When growing up, I took 6 years of "Tae Kwon Do" (as I mentioned before, it was taught by the student of a guy who teaches cops how to fight) and found out later that about half of what I learned was basically Krav techniques and grappling.

I've also read books on -and have practiced to a limited extent- MCMA (Marine Corp Martial Arts), Bata (Irish cane fighting), and distilled knife fighting.


EDIT: @ Reorith. I prefer the feel of XDs or CZs myself; both relatively inexpensive as well- but to each their own. However, going down the road of guns, you need to be trained in that as well. Tactical pistol courses are well worth the money, and once I get my CHP I'll be investing in one. Of course, the best option is to have some experience with everything, so you're not dependent on one tool (knife, gun, stick, hands, etc.).

[skywalker]

I'm kind of small build, and not strong, and my life got ruined because I was not able to repel an attacker. what kind of martial art can I learn that suits my build?

I've been told aikido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido) is good for smaller people. Krav is also a good suggestion.


Nike.

I prefer the feel of New Balance myself...

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!


also, Glock-fu. i found a second hand Glock 19 in very good condition for $378.

I second the notion.

[Manicotti]

I studied Aikido for a couple years, it's excellent for learning fluidity and efficiency of motion (although it's not a martial art, I'm studying parkour for the same reasons). In the interest of mixing practicality and style (and also because Chicago has its head up its ass about civilians and firearms), I'm also looking into stickfighting. I agree with the other posters here on the exuberance of fighting - if you're not playing to avoid losing, then you're playing to die.

[skywalker]

I studied Aikido for a couple years, it's excellent for learning fluidity and efficiency of motion (although it's not a martial art, I'm studying parkour for the same reasons). In the interest of mixing practicality and style (and also because Chicago has its head up its ass about civilians and firearms), I'm also looking into stickfighting. I agree with the other posters here on the exuberance of fighting - if you're not playing to avoid losing, then you're playing to die.

If you're just playing to avoid losing, you're playing to lose. Play to win. Nothing else matters.

[Pyrian]

In self-defense, not losing is more important than winning. Winning is merely a tool to not lose. If you can get away - i.e. not win while not losing - that's usually the safest option. Otherwise, well, there's something to be said for reading lists of techniques banned from competition as a how-to guide... :smallamused:

[skywalker]

In self-defense, not losing is more important than winning. Winning is merely a tool to not lose. If you can get away - i.e. not win while not losing - that's usually the safest option. Otherwise, well, there's something to be said for reading lists of techniques banned from competition as a how-to guide... :smallamused:

I should've explained more. My victory condition is "not dying." I want to "not die" as fast as possible. So "winning" is "not dying."

[Manicotti]

In self-defense, not losing is more important than winning. Winning is merely a tool to not lose. If you can get away - i.e. not win while not losing - that's usually the safest option. Otherwise, well, there's something to be said for reading lists of techniques banned from competition as a how-to guide... :smallamused:

I take the Ender's Game approach to fighting. I like to win - thoroughly. The safest option is not only to win, but to make your opponent too afraid to challenge you again.

[Pyrian]

Hmm. I think you'll just get yourself into more trouble than you have to that way, Manicotti. I've simply backed away from fights I probably could've won - but if I don't have to I don't see much reason to risk it. You think you're all badass and then their gang buddy comes around the corner with a firearm and suddenly you're a badass corpse.

In any violent confrontation my secondary focus (after basic self-preservation) is on ending it as quickly as possible. Get away or put 'em down, stat.


So "winning" is "not dying."I suppose we all lose in the end. :smallcool:

[Manicotti]

Hmm. I think you'll just get yourself into more trouble than you have to that way, Manicotti. I've simply backed away from fights I probably could've won - but if I don't have to I don't see much reason to risk it. You think you're all badass and then their gang buddy comes around the corner with a firearm and suddenly you're a badass corpse.

In any violent confrontation my secondary focus (after basic self-preservation) is on ending it as quickly as possible. Get away or put 'em down, stat.

I suppose we all lose in the end. :smallcool:

Oh yes. I'm not talking about looking for fights; hell, if I can talk us all out of one, so much the better. But in the events that a fight is unavoidable, there's no sense in leaving your opponent capable of getting revenge.

[reorith]

Hmm. I think you'll just get yourself into more trouble than you have to that way, Manicotti. I've simply backed away from fights I probably could've won - but if I don't have to I don't see much reason to risk it. You think you're all badass and then their gang buddy comes around the corner with a firearm and suddenly you're a badass corpse.

In any violent confrontation my secondary focus (after basic self-preservation) is on ending it as quickly as possible. Get away or put 'em down, stat.

I suppose we all lose in the end. :smallcool:

yeah Pyrian, its like the tale of the two samurai on a boat or something. one of them heard about the other's reputation and was like "ah man, we should so duel how cool would that be?" and the other was like "uh no? i've got places to be, and so do you." but the one who wanted a fight was like "please? i'll give you a puppy and a fistful of mike and ikes if you win." so the experienced/wise samurai dude was like "ok!" and had the ferryman make a detour to a small island. the samurai that was pointlessly spoiling for a fight hopped off and turned around to see the ferry disembarking with the wise swordsman at the stern making rude gestures. so who won that fight?

[skywalker]

I suppose we all lose in the end. :smallcool:

Reorith reminds me of the Hagakure after all this talk of death: We should live as though already dead.

Or, from Escape Velocity Nova, the theory of Autumn: See yourself as a leaf on the wind, already separate from the tree, and therefore technically dead. What will you do on the way down?

[Whammydill]

Oh yes. I'm not talking about looking for fights; hell, if I can talk us all out of one, so much the better. But in the events that a fight is unavoidable, there's no sense in leaving your opponent capable of getting revenge.


I'd be careful with that. If it ever goes to court you have to be able to prove that at all times you were defending yourself. Administering a coup-de-grace to any degree or basically doing anything to the assailant when he has ceased to be a threat makes you the assailant. If it was witnessed or otherwise able to be proven in court you are possibly looking at criminal or civil lawsuit. Been there, done that, not fun, and the shirt was too small.

Keeping yourself alive is rule #1. If it comes to force, use only enough to stop the threat; if that requires a simple trip/throw to give you time to run great. If that requires you blood/air choke the guy so be it. If it requires you to armbar the guy till his arm comes off and then you have to beat him with said arm because he is hopped up on PCP and has you cornered and won't quit coming fine.

Going for the maim or kill is asking for trouble. *Stop the threat* is the mantra. It will keep you from getting sued or worse.

[Jack Squat]

Keeping yourself alive is rule #1. If it comes to force, use only enough to stop the threat; if that requires a simple trip/throw to give you time to run great. If that requires you blood/air choke the guy so be it. If it requires you to armbar the guy till his arm comes off and then you have to beat him with said arm because he is hopped up on PCP and has you cornered and won't quit coming fine.

Going for the maim or kill is asking for trouble. *Stop the threat* is the mantra. It will keep you from getting sued or worse.

Actually, you do go to maim or kill. If you're fighting, your fighting for your life. The fastest way to end a fight is to harm them enough that they can no longer attack. However, and this is the part we agree on, you stop once they are no longer an immediate threat. The fun (read: confusing) part of this is that if they have the intent to harm you, it's aggravated assault, which is a felony. This means that (depending on your locality - check applicable laws) you're able to forcibly restrain them in a citizen's arrest, if possible. And restraining them would be an offensive act, so it's possible for you to get charged because of it.

As an aside, arm-bars are a horrible way to detain someone. They're effective most of the time, but because they work on pain, they're only temporary. Best thing (I've found) you can do after one is to get them to the ground and pin them. Then restrain if necessary. I know a couple guys who would sit on the person until the cops arrived, so restraining doesn't always mean cuffs or rope.

[rakkoon]

I'm kind of small build, and not strong, and my life got ruined because I was not able to repel an attacker. what kind of martial art can I learn that suits my build?

I think thai-box would actually be the easiest to learn. If I look at my 15-year old niece, after a year she could throw a decent punch and kick quite hard.
It's not my favorite martial Art but for quick selfdefense it's great.

[Project_Mayhem]

Not trying to start a flame war, but can you groundfight as well as Brazillian Jiujutsu-ist? Every art has weaknesses, and everyone has personal preferences.

Tongue firmly in cheek mate - I even used this guy --> :smalltongue:

Amusingly, ground-fighting is the area where the style I learn seems to weaker. Praying Mantis does have some application on the ground, but its not the focus.

[Whammydill]

Actually, you do go to maim or kill. If you're fighting, your fighting for your life. The fastest way to end a fight is to harm them enough that they can no longer attack. However, and this is the part we agree on, you stop once they are no longer an immediate threat. The fun (read: confusing) part of this is that if they have the intent to harm you, it's aggravated assault, which is a felony. This means that (depending on your locality - check applicable laws) you're able to forcibly restrain them in a citizen's arrest, if possible. And restraining them would be an offensive act, so it's possible for you to get charged because of it.

As an aside, arm-bars are a horrible way to detain someone. They're effective most of the time, but because they work on pain, they're only temporary. Best thing (I've found) you can do after one is to get them to the ground and pin them. Then restrain if necessary. I know a couple guys who would sit on the person until the cops arrived, so restraining doesn't always mean cuffs or rope.

I agree in principle and logic, but the legal system doesn't work on logic or principle, only obfuscation and skullduggery. I've been through it. Thankfully it was nolle prosequi for criminal and the civil suit was dismissed. Instead of running when I put the guy down, I applied a pinning technique and dislocated his shoulder and gave him a radial fracture of his upper arm bone (humerus?) I felt he was still a threat since he probably could have caught me in a foot chase after he retrieved his knife and were able to see that was true in court.

P.S. I wouldn't use an armbar like you see in MMA matches myself. If I'm doing an armbar I would apply one that also uses leverage and body physics to immobilize not just apply pain (which is what I did above.)

[Mattarias, King.]

I've been doing me some Krav Maga and thai kickboxing recently. Did some karate and hapkido earlier in my life, but I didn't dig 'em. Heh.

[Jack Squat]

I agree in principle and logic, but the legal system doesn't work on logic or principle, only obfuscation and skullduggery. I've been through it. Thankfully it was nolle prosequi for criminal and the civil suit was dismissed. Instead of running when I put the guy down, I applied a pinning technique and dislocated his shoulder and gave him a radial fracture of his upper arm bone (humerus?) I felt he was still a threat since he probably could have caught me in a foot chase after he retrieved his knife and were able to see that was true in court.

I didn't mean you won't get charged, but so long as you don't use "excessive force" or any other words that basically mean it can be interpreted to have done an offensive move that isn't protected under citizen's arrest (which your pinning would be) it's pretty hard to get convicted - afterall, they have to prove their claim, you don't have to prove yours (which is why the prosecutor declined to proceed - he couldn't prove it wasn't self defense). Not how it always works, but this is how it was explained to me by a cop friend. Local laws and attitudes may differ.


P.S. I wouldn't use an armbar like you see in MMA matches myself. If I'm doing an armbar I would apply one that also uses leverage and body physics to immobilize not just apply pain (which is what I did above.)

Only one I learned of that doesn't solely use pain for compliance is where they're against the ground or a wall (though ground is easier). If there's another one, I'd be all for learning it.

[thorgrim29]

Excessive force: Dunno how it works for you americans et al, or even if those are the rules that apply to a canadian civilian, but the official guidelines for the CBSA (canadian customs) are that if you feels that your life or someone else's is threatened, you are justified to reply in kind, but simply being in a fight is not an excuse to use the so called "black" techniques (mainly hitting the head, the back or the ribs with an ASP, applying a chokehold, going for the nuts, generally the sort of things that might cause permanent damage). And once the person is incapacitated (pepper sprayed, down on the ground, cuffed, etc) it is absolutely illegal to hit him any more (using joint holds is fine if done reasonably).

[Jack Squat]

Excessive force: Dunno how it works for you americans et al, or even if those are the rules that apply to a canadian civilian, but the official guidelines for the CBSA (canadian customs) are that if you feels that your life or someone else's is threatened, you are justified to reply in kind, but simply being in a fight is not an excuse to use the so called "black" techniques (mainly hitting the head, the back or the ribs with an ASP, applying a chokehold, going for the nuts, generally the sort of things that might cause permanent damage). And once the person is incapacitated (pepper sprayed, down on the ground, cuffed, etc) it is absolutely illegal to hit him any more (using joint holds is fine if done reasonably).

It's similar here - and it varies on locality. Essentially, where I am, if you are in reasonable fear for your life, you're justified to act in a manner that preserves your life/well-being, including the use of deadly force. And getting attacked by someone justifies being in fear for your life, as does someone breaking into your house, and someone threatening you with force or a weapon, among other things. However, here in Knoxville, I cannot carry around and ASP without being certified in baton usage - so most people that aren't cops or security guards don't have them (legally). I can't beat them over the head with a metal pipe, but I can shoot them; go figure. In other places, pepper spray, stun guns/tasers, and/or guns are not allowed. In some places, it doesn't matter what you carry around on your person. As always, check your local laws.

We have the same thing where you can't continue an attack after someone no longer presents a direct threat (i.e. running away, unconscious, or otherwise no longer attacking) you can't continue an attack, as that would be offensive, and no longer self defense. You are allowed to restrain them against their will under a citizen's arrest if applicable,* though you can be charged and convicted with kidnapping and/or felony assault if felt that your "arrest" wasn't justified, or you used an inappropriate amount of force in order to restrain them. Most states have something similar as well but there is no code at the Federal level as far as I'm aware.


*this is argued, though the stance I'm using is by definition an arrest is restraining someone against their will.

[Worira]

Uh.. Armbars don't hurt. Until the arm snaps, that is. Since when has an armbar been a pain compliance technique?

[Whammydill]

Well, the arm bars I use generally also utilize small joint locks and large join rotation towards areas they don't belong. Mucho paino comply...o

[Whammydill]

It's similar here - and it varies on locality. Essentially, where I am, if you are in reasonable fear for your life, you're justified to act in a manner that preserves your life/well-being, including the use of deadly force. And getting attacked by someone justifies being in fear for your life, as does someone breaking into your house, and someone threatening you with force or a weapon, among other things. However, here in Knoxville, I cannot carry around and ASP without being certified in baton usage - so most people that aren't cops or security guards don't have them (legally). I can't beat them over the head with a metal pipe, but I can shoot them; go figure. In other places, pepper spray, stun guns/tasers, and/or guns are not allowed. In some places, it doesn't matter what you carry around on your person. As always, check your local laws.

We have the same thing where you can't continue an attack after someone no longer presents a direct threat (i.e. running away, unconscious, or otherwise no longer attacking) you can't continue an attack, as that would be offensive, and no longer self defense. You are allowed to restrain them against their will under a citizen's arrest if applicable,* though you can be charged and convicted with kidnapping and/or felony assault if felt that your "arrest" wasn't justified, or you used an inappropriate amount of force in order to restrain them. Most states have something similar as well but there is no code at the Federal level as far as I'm aware.


*this is argued, though the stance I'm using is by definition an arrest is restraining someone against their will.


Might be some semantics of the difference between arresting someone, which most people aren't empowered to do; and apprehending them which is more of detaining them till someone with powers of arrest arrives......I dunno.

[Jack Squat]

Uh.. Armbars don't hurt. Until the arm snaps, that is. Since when has an armbar been a pain compliance technique?

They're pretty standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armlock#Hammerlock). I mean, if you want to get technical, the variant I'm thinking of is called a "hammerlock", but even the straight armbar hyper-extends a joint rather than "snapping" it, and has been used for compliance; it's even specifically taught as such a technique to Marines.



Might be some semantics of the difference between arresting someone, which most people aren't empowered to do; and apprehending them which is more of detaining them till someone with powers of arrest arrives......I dunno.

Actually, at least here, people are empowered to do so (by the argument I've heard anyways). The law is specifically set aside as "citizen's arrest"; though even then we don't get any trouble with detaining people where I work until the cops arrive.

[Worira]

It's not a variant, it's an entirely different lock. A hammerlock is not an armbar. As for it being used as a pain compliance technique, provide evidence of an armbar being a suggested pain compliance technique. Whammydill is correct that shoulder and finger manipulation can be used with an armbar, but the armbar itself is painless.

[Copacetic]

I fenced for a year and change, but stopped when my instructor moved out of town. I've always wanted to learn a "proper" martial art, I.E. something you can do with your hands. Suggestions?

[Jack Squat]

It's not a variant, it's an entirely different lock. A hammerlock is not an armbar. As for it being used as a pain compliance technique, provide evidence of an armbar being a suggested pain compliance technique. Whammydill is correct that shoulder and finger manipulation can be used with an armbar, but the armbar itself is painless.

I'll quote The Marine Corp manual on close combat.


An armbar is a joint manipulation in which pressure is applied on a locked elbow, just above the joint, in the direction the joint will not bend. An armbar has to be locked in quickly, but still requires a slow, steady pressure to gain compliance.


There's also this link (http://www.mpuca.com/index_files/Page2640.htm). If you wish to continue arguing, I'm afraid the whole issue is semantics, as I consider the entire move -including pain compliance- an armbar, while it seems you don't. 'Course I also don't really worry too much about terminology (hence my apparently not-so-common interchangeably using armbar and armlock) so long as it works.

[Worira]

You're right, we are arguing semantics at this point.

Azure Butterfly: First off, the quality of a school matters more than the specific art it teaches. Second, what are you looking to get out of it? A sport, a way to get in shape, a method of self defence, or some combination?

[skywalker]

Excessive force: Dunno how it works for you americans et al, or even if those are the rules that apply to a canadian civilian, but the official guidelines for the CBSA (canadian customs) are that if you feels that your life or someone else's is threatened, you are justified to reply in kind, but simply being in a fight is not an excuse to use the so called "black" techniques (mainly hitting the head, the back or the ribs with an ASP, applying a chokehold, going for the nuts, generally the sort of things that might cause permanent damage). And once the person is incapacitated (pepper sprayed, down on the ground, cuffed, etc) it is absolutely illegal to hit him any more (using joint holds is fine if done reasonably).

I think (could be wrong) that Jack is indicating a line of thinking that "if you're fighting, your life is threatened." This is a reasonable assumption in my book, because fists do bad things to skulls. Once a person is on the ground, shoed feet do even worse things.