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View Full Version : Is WOTC going to stat EVERYTHING in 4th edition?



Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 01:59 AM
honestly. I think they're going to. we already have stats for Orcus, Dispater, Grazz't, Bahamut, Tiamat, Vecna, Demogorgon and Dagon.

Is WOTC on the track of statting every single god and demon lord in the game for 4th edition Or am I just crazy? or both?

is there anything that they haven't statted that you'd LIKE to see statted?

BobVosh
2009-12-06, 02:00 AM
Why not?10 characters

erikun
2009-12-06, 02:01 AM
Why not?
Because they killed a bunch of them. Poor, poor Eilistraee....

Dixieboy
2009-12-06, 02:04 AM
Because they killed a bunch of them. Poor, poor Eilistraee....

Killing her off might have been the only good move they made lore-wise in 4th edition.

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 02:15 AM
They did it last edition. See books like the Fiendish Codex and Deities and Demigods. Probably only dead powers won't have any stats... and that's only if they don't get them from some adventure where they come back.

F.H. Zebedee
2009-12-06, 02:27 AM
It's a bit of a shame to see deities and such fully statted on the page, since that kinda... Well, it takes the mystique out of them. I prefer making the DM wing it, though I'm a homebrew heavy DM, so I'll admit a large ammount of bias there.

Of course, the dial playable level cap does go up to eleven thirty now, though, so that's probably part of it.

jmbrown
2009-12-06, 02:38 AM
This isn't anything new. Deities have been given stats since AD&D because it's fun to kill them. Gygax statted out Cthulhu among other real world deities from various cultures.

Dixieboy
2009-12-06, 02:44 AM
This isn't anything new. Deities have been given stats since AD&D because it's fun to kill them. Gygax statted out Cthulhu among other real world deities from various cultures.

All knowing = How much INT?

BobVosh
2009-12-06, 02:56 AM
Cthulu isn't all knowing. Or, for that matter, a deity. Just a high priest.

Also all knowing is all knowledges at like 300. You know everything worth knowing at that point.

jmbrown
2009-12-06, 03:27 AM
All knowing = How much INT?

Nah, he only has IQ 20 which is "supra-genius" in AD&D terms. 21+ is god-like (which is laughable in 3E).

Cthulhu is probably the weakest "greater god" in the Deities and Demigods' Cthulhu Mythos section. You want a real fight? Hop on a Spelljammer and see if you can take on Azathoth. What's that? You approach within 1,000 miles of him? Make a save every round or go insane.

Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-12-06, 03:33 AM
Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)

Anyway, D&D's been doing this since Advanced. It's hardly anything new or surprising. It's just how high-level D&D is expected to work.

I will murder someone if they ever stat out the Eberron Soveriegn Host/Dark Six deities, though. I don't care if it means the people in other settings don't think they exist, being able to question their existence is the point.

jmbrown
2009-12-06, 03:41 AM
That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)

Anyway, D&D's been doing this since Advanced. It's hardly anything new or surprising. It's just how high-level D&D is expected to work.

I will murder someone if they ever stat out the Eberron Soveriegn Host/Dark Six deities, though. I don't care if it means the people in other settings don't think they exist, being able to question their existence is the point.

Aren't they overdeities, though? Greater gods and below are still "mortal" in a sense that they can fade from existence but you can't kill something like Ao or the Lady of Pain that exist above everything or have total omnipotence.

FoE
2009-12-06, 03:42 AM
Where are there stats for Dispater and Graz'zt?

Mongoose87
2009-12-06, 03:49 AM
Nah, he only has IQ 20 which is "supra-genius" in AD&D terms. 21+ is god-like (which is laughable in 3E).

Cthulhu is probably the weakest "greater god" in the Deities and Demigods' Cthulhu Mythos section. You want a real fight? Hop on a Spelljammer and see if you can take on Azathoth. What's that? You approach within 1,000 miles of him? Make a save every round or go insane.

Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

I find it offensive that Azathoth is even statted. No mortal should be able to reasonably consider even attempting to harm him.

Shazbot79
2009-12-06, 03:59 AM
Killing her off might have been the only good move they made lore-wise in 4th edition.

Speak for yourself.

I like 4E story concepts a lot more than previous editions.

Jothki
2009-12-06, 04:19 AM
Aren't they overdeities, though? Greater gods and below are still "mortal" in a sense that they can fade from existence but you can't kill something like Ao or the Lady of Pain that exist above everything or have total omnipotence.

Is the Lady of Pain even a deity? I'd assume that that would lead to the beliefs of her worshippers being able to constrain her, which is why she smacks it down so hard.

FoE
2009-12-06, 04:41 AM
Is the Lady of Pain even a deity?

Maybe. Probably not. The truth is, nobody knows what she is. The best guess is that she's an avatar of Sigil, a living personification of the city's will.

Aside from The Lady, the only being I hope they don't stat out is Asmodeus.

So, where are those stats on Graz'zt ...?

arguskos
2009-12-06, 04:52 AM
That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)
The former is nigh-impossible to stat, since you just go insane eventually. The latter would be pointless to fight, since if you actually, SOMEHOW, managed to slay it, the entirety of reality would end. That said, I actually want to see Yog-Sothoth stats, just to see what his abilities would be. Bonus points if they're just "stand there and take it".

Haven
2009-12-06, 04:53 AM
Is the Lady of Pain even a deity? I'd assume that that would lead to the beliefs of her worshippers being able to constrain her, which is why she smacks it down so hard.

No, if she were a deity the belief of her worshippers would empower her. She's something else.

And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.

Melamoto
2009-12-06, 04:54 AM
Since when has something being completely omnipotent ever stopped it from being statted out? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER)

arguskos
2009-12-06, 04:55 AM
No, if she were a deity the belief of her worshippers would empower her. She's something else.

And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.
Where's Tiki Snakes when you need him? He'd have a fit about this convo right here. :smalltongue:

Also, the Lady is not a god, nor a power, nor a mortal. She simply is. And that's all there is to it. You wanna know more? Go get lost in the Wheel and ask a cutter or three what they think about the Lady. :smallamused:

FoE
2009-12-06, 04:57 AM
And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.

They didn't in the DMG2 (where 4E's write-up on Sigil is contained), so I suspect they won't. It's made fairly clear she's not to be screwed with.

So, stats on Graz'zt? Anyone know where those are?

Bayar
2009-12-06, 04:59 AM
Since when has something being completely omnipotent ever stopped it from being statted out? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER)

Yeah, and Cthulhu is actually the Omiscifier, using infinite damage loops for infinite knowledge bonuses.

:biggrin:

daggaz
2009-12-06, 05:38 AM
Cthulu isn't all knowing. Or, for that matter, a deity. Just a high priest.

Also all knowing is all knowledges at like 300. You know everything worth knowing at that point.

Nor is he a "real world deity"... Godzilla exists in books, does that make him real?

taltamir
2009-12-06, 07:34 AM
stating things fills pages, pages make a book, a book can be sold.

there are companies who say "we will not do that because it will detract from the game and we love the game" WOTC isn't one of them.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 07:53 AM
It's a bit of a shame to see deities and such fully statted on the page, since that kinda... Well, it takes the mystique out of them. I prefer making the DM wing it, though I'm a homebrew heavy DM, so I'll admit a large amount of bias there.

Of course, the dial playable level cap does go up to eleven thirty now, though, so that's probably part of it.

Well, in the new 4e rules, epic levels are actually core, complete with adventures for them, and what do epic people do?

Kill gods on a daily basis.

Fixed your spelling :smalltongue: .


stating things fills pages, pages make a book, a book can be sold.

there are companies who say "we will not do that because it will detract from the game and we love the game" WOTC isn't one of them.

Edition war in 5....4.....3.....2......1.....

And the lady of pain WILL be stated, why else would they have rules for lvl 40 creatures?

BTW, the cover of MM3 for 4e has The demon queen of spiders on it, stats ahoy!

taltamir
2009-12-06, 07:56 AM
Edition war in 5....4.....3.....2......1.....

What? WOTC has been doing that since FOREVER.
they stated the gods in ADD, in 3e, and now in 4e...
Have you tried counting how many splat books they make for each edition? This really has nothing to do with edition and does not justify an edition war.


Well, in the new 4e rules, epic levels are actually core, complete with adventures for them, and what do epic people do?

Kill gods on a daily basis.
Well, the official WOTC stance on epic levels is "once your players become epic, they are probably going to suggest becoming gods, we say, let them. To find an appropriate encounter they can move beyond this reality, to other planes, the city of doors, etc, and fight things that can kill gods"

This is not verbatim, but a paraphrase of what I remember reading... so yes, killing gods and being gods is what epic characters do, IN ANY edition.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 07:58 AM
What? WOTC has been doing that since FOREVER.
they stated the gods in ADD, in 3e, and now in 4e...
Have you tried counting how many splat books they make for each edition? This really has nothing to do with edition and does not justify an edition war.

I didn't say it did, I'm just saying sooner or later some dude is going to attack you for that on this forum, be on your guard, the pixies are coming...

And you have a good point...

Morty
2009-12-06, 09:31 AM
And the lady of pain WILL be stated, why else would they have rules for lvl 40 creatures?


Any number of overdeities whose nature isn't intentionally left ambigous?

Ladorak
2009-12-06, 10:19 AM
The former is nigh-impossible to stat, since you just go insane eventually. The latter would be pointless to fight, since if you actually, SOMEHOW, managed to slay it, the entirety of reality would end. That said, I actually want to see Yog-Sothoth stats, just to see what his abilities would be. Bonus points if they're just "stand there and take it".

The whole 'they go insane' thing is kinda the point of Call of Cthulu (The RPG). They statted Azathoth on page 162 of the core rulebook. Just seeing his stats is enough to force a sanity check...

They also statted Yog-Sothoth. He's basically unkillible

Volkov
2009-12-06, 10:24 AM
Cthulu isn't all knowing. Or, for that matter, a deity. Just a high priest.

Also all knowing is all knowledges at like 300. You know everything worth knowing at that point.

H.P was ambiguous on that point, sometimes he spoke of Cthulhu being an Great Old one, sometimes he said he was just a high priest, other times he said he wasn't related to them at all.

Nightson
2009-12-06, 10:31 AM
So, stats on Graz'zt? Anyone know where those are?

Manual of the Planes. Dispater is in there too.


On the statting of things. There are very few things which should not be statted, and in the 4e paradigm, you only stat something if you're going to fight it or at least have that potential. So I would bet on the Lady of Pain never getting a stat block but I would imagine that most deities will eventually get a stat block of their very own given that the level of the other gods clearly indicates that a deity is something an epic level group can take on.

Kaiser Omnik
2009-12-06, 10:40 AM
It's a bit of a shame to see deities and such fully statted on the page, since that kinda... Well, it takes the mystique out of them. I prefer making the DM wing it, though I'm a homebrew heavy DM, so I'll admit a large ammount of bias there.

Of course, the dial playable level cap does go up to eleven thirty now, though, so that's probably part of it.

Yeah, it makes sense considering players can become demigods in the game.

However, if you don't feel like the gods should have stats, just say the stat blocks presented are for avatars or something like that and that the true gods and demon lords have access to powers beyond any mortal's imagination. Voila!

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-06, 11:27 AM
Remember that, in 4e, you can't kill gods without DM intervention. When bloodied, they disincorporate unless you have some story-based artifact, etc to make them stick around and finish the fight.

Kesnit
2009-12-06, 12:08 PM
stating things fills pages, pages make a book, a book can be sold.

there are companies who say "we will not do that because it will detract from the game and we love the game" WOTC isn't one of them.

I don't agree with that thinking. It isn't unrealistic for a really high level party to have a reason to attack a deity. Monsters have stats, and deities are just one more monster. An argument could be made that it should be up to the DM to stat gods, but if you go that route, why should WotC stat anything? Just give DM's rough guidelines and have them stat it all.

Also, it makes forums like this easier. Say someone knows their party will have to take on (insert god here). They come to forums to ask for help. Rather than have to explain what the deity can do, everyone should know because the stats are there.

nyjastul69
2009-12-06, 12:22 PM
Stating deities started prior to AD&D. Supplement: IV Gods, Demigods and Heroes by Ward and Kuntz has them.

ocdscale
2009-12-06, 12:27 PM
People like stating things. Think about how many threads here are:
"Lets stat []."
If WotC didn't already stat, lets say Vecna (3.5), you can bet there'd be versions floating around here.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-06, 12:33 PM
I hope they stat the DM. That is one monster I'm sure a PC will want to take down. :smallbiggrin:

Weimann
2009-12-06, 12:43 PM
Except who would be around to hand out xp for them then? And who would run all NPCs? The entire world would grind to a halt right then and there! THERE WOULD BE NO TOMMORROW! NO FUTURE! NO HOPE!!!

Fhaolan
2009-12-06, 12:51 PM
What? WOTC has been doing that since FOREVER.
they stated the gods in ADD, in 3e, and now in 4e...
Have you tried counting how many splat books they make for each edition? This really has nothing to do with edition and does not justify an edition war.


Technically false, although correct in intent. :smallbiggrin: WotC hasn't been doing that since forever, simply because they weren't the publishers for D&D prior to 3rd edition. So they're just carrying on a tradition that started before them. TSR is the company that did most of the 'stat anything and everything' stuff, as I don't think Guidon Games actually put anything out for 'The Fantasy Game' (Gygax's prototype game that evolved into D&D when TSR was founded) that involved dieties.

nyjastul69
2009-12-06, 01:12 PM
I hope they stat the DM. That is one monster I'm sure a PC will want to take down. :smallbiggrin:


That's hilarious. :)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-06, 01:32 PM
The latter would be pointless to fight, since if you actually, SOMEHOW, managed to slay it, the entirety of reality would end.

http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Ouroboros,_Great-Great-Great_Wyrm_Cometary_Dragon
The personification of time, apparently. Destroy it and time is destroyed. I hear the Immortals Handbook has rules on how to defeat it.

Green Bean
2009-12-06, 01:32 PM
Yeah, and Cthulhu is actually the Omiscifier, using infinite damage loops for infinite knowledge bonuses.

:biggrin:

Nah, the Omniscifier can be rendered impotent if you're clever.

I really don't see anything wrong with statting out various Old Ones so you can kill them. Sure, in Lovecraft's world reading a tome of ancient and forbidden lore would drive you insane, but in DnD you just need to cast Mind Blank. They're totally different scales.

R. Shackleford
2009-12-06, 01:48 PM
There are like, five epic destinies that are focussed specifically on Deicide, so statting them out is probably a good idea.

Tiktakkat
2009-12-06, 02:55 PM
Stating deities started prior to AD&D. Supplement: IV Gods, Demigods and Heroes by Ward and Kuntz has them.

I would also note thin is the Foreword by Tim Kask in that book:

"This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?"

Does it qualify as irony that in attempting to put the uber-powergamers "in their place" they inadvertantly created the entire concept of "If it has stats, I can kill it!"?

It seems to be a cycle:
If something has a name, someone wants to give it stats.
If something has stats, someone wants to kill it.
If someone kills it, someone is irked by it. :smalltongue:

As for the Lady of Pain, I will note that it was a design decision not to give her stats just so nobody could ever (try to) kill her.
That is the only way to really prevent it, some author somewhere just has to say "No", and the line editor has to accept and enforce the ban on subsequent authors.

Jerthanis
2009-12-06, 03:24 PM
Nah, the Omniscifier can be rendered impotent if you're clever.


Like if you drive a steamboat into it.

Green Bean
2009-12-06, 03:45 PM
Like if you drive a steamboat into it.

Also, the Omniscifier is based on an unlimited Knowledge: Whatever bonus and that every +5 you get on a Knowledge check is an extra piece of information. Unlimited facts isn't the same as knowing everything. The first digit of pi is a fact. So is the second. And the third. And the fourth. And the fifth.

Dust
2009-12-06, 06:03 PM
Monte Cook helped produce a d20 version of the Cal of Cthulhu rulebook. Within it, they statted everyone from Azathoth to Father Dagon. For the sake of an interesting read, here's the stats for Azathoth.

Azathoth

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs37/300W/f/2008/275/f/8/The_Blind_Idiot_God_by_kishin.jpg
Image by kishin (http://kishin.deviantart.com/) of deviantart, used without permission.

Colossal Outsider (Greater God)
Domains: Evil, Chaos, Madness, Death
Hit Dice: 72d8+2091 (2,666 hp)
Initiative: +5 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 140 ft., fly 360 ft.
AC: 63 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +40 natural, +20 divine)
Attacks: 6 slam +102 melee
Damage: Slam 4d6+17 (improved critical) + Int drain
Face/Reach: 40 ft. by 40 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Int drain, wail of madness, alter reality, divine celerity, squamous blast
Special Qualities: Divine qualities, remote sensing 20, damage reduction 55/+4, SR 52, darkvision 60 ft., divine fast healing 200, fire resistance 40, cold resistance 40, sonic immunity
Saves: Fort +89, Ref +61, Will +61
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 13, Con 69, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 34
Skills: Concentration +104, Cthulhu Mythos +71, Knowledge (planes) +71, Hide -15, Listen +66, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes , Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Sunder, Toughness, Weapon Focus (slam)
Climate: Any
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 50
Treasure: x5 standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: None
Sanity Loss: 1d10 if you succeed, 1d% if you fail

That last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity -- the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.
-- H.P. Lovecraft, The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

Azathoth is the chief deity of the Cthulhu Mythos, and has existed since before creation. Some say it had a hand in the creation of the multiverse (or at least a psuedopod). It dwells beyond normal space-time at the center of all existence, where its amorphous body writhes unceasingly to the monotonous piping of a flute. Lesser gods and servitors dance mindlessly round Azathoth to the same music.

Azathoth is both blind and idiotic, a "monstrous nuclear chaos." In fact, the essence of Azathoth is part of all physical matter in the multiverse, though he can also manifest as the distinct amorphous mass described here.

Worship
Other gods of the Mythos revere, and even worship, Azathoth. For instance, Great Cthulhu himself is the chief priest of Azathoth, though he serves from afar, and only when the stars are right. The chief instrument of Azathoth is Nyarlathotep (though some say it is Nyarlathotep that controls the idiot deity Azathoth). The urges of Azathoth are immediately fulfilled by the Crawling Chaos.
Azathoth is rarely worshiped by mortals, for the god offers little in return. (In D&D, only a few clerics who serve Azathoth are granted powers from the god's domains.) Usually Azathoth is called by accident, thereby unwittingly bringing disaster and horror. Only the criminally insane knowingly worship such a being. Nonetheless, such worshipers may have special insights into the nature of the universe, its origin, powers, and meaning, insights perhaps understandable only by other madmen. Supplicants who are truly daring may seek to summon the manifestation of Azathoth, though doing so entails terrible risk, lest Azathoth become irritated at the interruption of its servitors' incessent piping.

Combat
Azathoth is never alone at the center of existence. Even if called or summoned, it manifests with one flautist (usually a Servitor of the Outer Gods) to play its music, and 1d4 other gods described in this book.
If engaged in physical combat, Azathoth forms psuedopods from its amorphous flesh, which it uses to slam enemies. However, its favorite tactic against mortal enemies is its Wail of Madness. Only if pressed by enemy deities will Azathoth deign to use its terrible divine blast, annihilating all mortal foes nearby so that it may concentrate its energies against the gods.

Intelligence Drain (Su): Whenever Azathoth hits an opponent with a slam attack from a pseudopod, the opponent is permanently drained of 2d4 Intelligence points (or twice that on a critical hit) as he is momentarily forced to stare into the abyss that is Azathoth's mind.

Wail of Madness (Su): At will, Azathoth can produce a terrible keening. All creatures within 100 feet who have a Sanity score are reduced to 1 Sanity if they fail a Will saving throw (DC 62).

Alter Reality (Sp): The deity can duplicate any spell in this book or any spell of 9th-level or less in the D&DPlayer's Handbook as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component. Its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 62 plus the god's Charisma modifier.

Divine Celerity (Su): The god acts as if hasted for 10 minutes (100 rounds) each day. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds. Activating this power is a free action.

Squamous Blast (Su): Azathoth can use this power 24 times a day. The ray created can extend up to 20 miles. Targets the ray strikes take 42d12 points of damage. No saving throw exists for this, but the god must make a ranged touch attack to hit.
Azathoth's blast usually takes the form of a half-melted lump of insane dream accompanied by a shrill chorus of thundering flutes. The damage dealt is divine damage. Energy resistance has no effect against the ray.
The ray destroys any wall of force, prismatic wall, or prismatic sphere it hits (all layers in a prismatic effect are destroyed). The ray itself is unaffected and can strike a target behind the wall of force or prismatic effect.

Remote Sensing (Ex): Azathoth can extend its senses to 20 remote locations at once (and still sense what's going on around itself).

Immunities: Immune to electricity, cold, acid, disease, poison, stunning, paralysis, polymorphing, transmutation, petrification, sleep, disintegration, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind effects, and instant death.

Azathoth adds +20 to all checks, and 1s are not automatic failures.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 06:26 PM
There are like, five epic destinies that are focussed specifically on Deicide, so statting them out is probably a good idea.

....Punisher of the Gods.....

As to those stats, I'm sure someone can figure out how to kill it. My first two thoughts on it were its Initiative sucks, and Mirror Image is a viable protection from Squamous Blast.

Kallisti
2009-12-06, 06:59 PM
2,000 hp? *Summons Swordguy* Anti-osmium time...

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-06, 07:34 PM
Except who would be around to hand out xp for them then? And who would run all NPCs? The entire world would grind to a halt right then and there! THERE WOULD BE NO TOMMORROW! NO FUTURE! NO HOPE!!!

Well, now we know what Davros would do if played D&D.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 07:38 PM
Where's Tiki Snakes when you need him? He'd have a fit about this convo right here. :smalltongue:

Also, the Lady is not a god, nor a power, nor a mortal. She simply is. And that's all there is to it. You wanna know more? Go get lost in the Wheel and ask a cutter or three what they think about the Lady. :smallamused:

Nah. I'm perfectly level, not frothing remotely.

Here's the thing though, I don't believe 'if it has stats, we can kill it', covers the truth of things. Not for me.

I think it's a matter of 'If it Exists, we can kill it.'

Think of it this-way. If all of space and time exploded, every single plane collapsing infinately, then exploding for several alephs of damage, starting at the center of Sigil and working its way outwards, would the Lady of Pain survive? Matter itself, along with time, space, energy and any metaphysical field or quantum particle, all just exploded instantly and repeatedly. There is no-where left for the lady to exist, no time for her to exist in and nothing for her existence to exist using, even on a metaphysical level.

The space between [i]things? That exploded too.

I'm pretty sure that'd kill her, stat's or no stats.

In my opinion, of course. :smallwink: Your Mileage May Differ.

Also; I've started my own multiplanar campaign, and while I haven't yet finalised or figured out exactly what the Lady is or might be, in truth, I can say quite happily that she does exist, and is a specific thing, and is neither a God, nor a cosmic truth given the illusion of form.
She transparently has limitations, and though she has few recognisable goals or motivations, there are clearly things that she fears on some level.

It's almost certain that my players are not going to find out 99% of that, let alone in this particular campaign, as it's unlikely to hit epic...but in theory they could.

And if it becomes relevant, I WILL stat the Lady of Pain.

And post it, on the internet. :smallcool:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-06, 08:09 PM
That explosion wouldn't kill a 17th level wizard, let alone a god or the Lady. Heck, I've seen a 13th level build that could survive nearly anything that was possible(ToS entry Aylita #3, IIRC, required a Disjunction just to be able to hurt it). There's a reason people require stats to know how to kill something.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 08:13 PM
That explosion wouldn't kill a 17th level wizard, let alone a god or the Lady. Heck, I've seen a 13th level build that could survive nearly anything that was possible(ToS entry Aylita #3, IIRC, required a Disjunction just to be able to hurt it). There's a reason people require stats to know how to kill something.

Every single particule of the Wizards being exploded, along with it's soul, time itself and dimensions themselves.

How on earth does the wizard survive, if he has no-place to survive in, and nothing to survive as?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-06, 08:22 PM
Every single particule of the Wizards being exploded, along with it's soul, time itself and dimensions themselves.

How on earth does the wizard survive, if he has no-place to survive in, and nothing to survive as?You blew up his Astral Projection. He's in his personal demi-plane, which has a series of very nice traits chosen to prevent anything from affecting it except him, and a bunch of buff spells that render him immune to it anyways.

While the Aylita build works via gaining regeneration, immunity to anything that penetrates that regen, and immunity to nonlethal. As well as a massive repertoire of other immunities.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 08:36 PM
You blew up his Astral Projection. He's in his personal demi-plane, which has a series of very nice traits chosen to prevent anything from affecting it except him, and a bunch of buff spells that render him immune to it anyways.

While the Aylita build works via gaining regeneration, immunity to anything that penetrates that regen, and immunity to nonlethal. As well as a massive repertoire of other immunities.

You obviously missed the part where all planes everywhere receive the same treatment, instantly. ie, his demiplane and every mote of his existence on ANY plane, reguardless of traits, just exploded. So, yeah. Still not seeing how he's suviving reality itself exploding into complete nothingness.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 08:41 PM
Who/what/how created/caused that explosion though, I'm not sure even dieties can do that, unless i'm overlooking or forgetting something...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-06, 08:42 PM
You obviously missed the part where all planes everywhere receive the same treatment, instantly. ie, his demiplane and every mote of his existence on ANY plane, reguardless of traits, just exploded. So, yeah. Still not seeing how he's suviving reality itself exploding into complete nothingness.Then how did you get around his buff routine, which includes immunity to all damage. The explosion could annihilate every particle of him, and he'd survive, grow back, and be fine, but even doing that much would require flat-out ignoring sections of his buff routine.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 08:44 PM
Who/what/how created/caused that explosion though, I'm not sure even dieties can do that, unless i'm overlooking or forgetting something...

It's the Death of Reality, the end of the multiverse. So long and thanks for all the fish. Totally irrelevant, and arbitrary catastrophe of cosmic proportions take your pick.

Perhaps it's what happens when the previously linked great wyrm dragon ouroborous dies and reality, minus the concept of time, flies apart at a fundemental level and simply stops.

Via explosions.


[edit] Re: his buff routine - The magical energies that comprise those enchantments exploded. As did time, space, and anywhere for him to grow back into, or anything for him to grow back as or using.

The abstract concept of Beauty? even that exploded.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-06, 08:45 PM
You obviously missed the part where all planes everywhere receive the same treatment, instantly. ie, his demiplane and every mote of his existence on ANY plane, reguardless of traits, just exploded. So, yeah. Still not seeing how he's suviving reality itself exploding into complete nothingness.

Sure, if you're willing to ignore all of the rules in favor of DM Fiat.

Green Bean
2009-12-06, 08:47 PM
Sure, if you're willing to ignore all of the rules in favor of DM Fiat.

But if time's imploded, then the wizard retroactively cannot have buffed himself because causality no longer exists.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-06, 08:49 PM
But if time's imploded, then the wizard retroactively cannot have buffed himself because causality no longer exists.

And yet, there are demiplanes which are timeless, as in untouched by time, where one might cast those buffs.

chiasaur11
2009-12-06, 08:52 PM
Nor is he a "real world deity"... Godzilla exists in books, does that make him real?

He's real enough in the hearts of children everywhere!

No, wait. That's Gamera.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 08:56 PM
And yet, there are demiplanes which are timeless, as in untouched by time, where one might cast those buffs.

No, because they exploded. Along with their non-time. And the colour purple.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 08:57 PM
He's real enough in the hearts of children everywhere!

No, wait. That's Gamera.

Showa Godzilla exists in the hearts of children. And he also can crap out powers at will.

chiasaur11
2009-12-06, 09:17 PM
It's the Death of Reality, the end of the multiverse. So long and thanks for all the fish. Totally irrelevant, and arbitrary catastrophe of cosmic proportions take your pick.

Perhaps it's what happens when the previously linked great wyrm dragon ouroborous dies and reality, minus the concept of time, flies apart at a fundemental level and simply stops.

Via explosions.


[edit] Re: his buff routine - The magical energies that comprise those enchantments exploded. As did time, space, and anywhere for him to grow back into, or anything for him to grow back as or using.

The abstract concept of Beauty? even that exploded.

So, it's just DEATH and Exploding left, huh?

Well, and a paperclip. But that comes later.

AshDesert
2009-12-06, 09:27 PM
Then how did you get around his buff routine, which includes immunity to all damage. The explosion could annihilate every particle of him, and he'd survive, grow back, and be fine, but even doing that much would require flat-out ignoring sections of his buff routine.

It's not a concept of damage killing him, it's the concept of all reality being completely destroyed on every plane. There's no space for him to occupy, and there's no time for him to exist in. Even if his buffs somehow prevent him from being unmade in the DESTRUCTION OF REALITY, he wouldn't have anything left to live in.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-06, 10:31 PM
Yes, things without stats will die if the DM narrates that they die. This is an utterly ridiculous discussion.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 10:54 PM
Yes, things without stats will die if the DM narrates that they die. This is an utterly ridiculous discussion.

The point is, that if the complete and utter destruction of reality and everything in it IS enough to kill anything that Exists, then there is a chance that, no matter what it is, it can be killed somehow.

Even if it doesn't have stats.

olelia
2009-12-06, 11:24 PM
COUNTER ATTACK!



Timeless Body
Psychoportation
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
Power Points: 17

Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects, beginning when you finish manifesting this power and ending at the end of your next turn. While timeless body is in effect, you are invulnerable to all attacks and powers.

This power cannot be quickened.

olentu
2009-12-06, 11:55 PM
COUNTER ATTACK!

One would assume that the instance of Timeless Body protecting the target would be destroyed thus removing its protection.

Dixieboy
2009-12-07, 12:01 AM
Speak for yourself.

I like 4E story concepts a lot more than previous editions.

The final result is up for debate, but the way they went to get to that result is simply in poor taste.

nekomata2
2009-12-07, 12:10 AM
It's the Death of Reality, the end of the multiverse. So long and thanks for all the fish. Totally irrelevant, and arbitrary catastrophe of cosmic proportions take your pick.

Perhaps it's what happens when the previously linked great wyrm dragon ouroborous dies and reality, minus the concept of time, flies apart at a fundemental level and simply stops.

Via explosions.


[edit] Re: his buff routine - The magical energies that comprise those enchantments exploded. As did time, space, and anywhere for him to grow back into, or anything for him to grow back as or using.

The abstract concept of Beauty? even that exploded.

So....it's a massively souped up "rocks fall, everyone dies, yes, even you wizard!" scenario? That seems like really bad DMing...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 12:26 AM
So....it's a massively souped up "rocks fall, everyone dies, yes, even you wizard!" scenario? That seems like really bad DMing...And again, it's questionable if it works. We're talking about Epic-level Wizards here, some of them with divine ranks(which means they get 20 weeks warning that this is coming. Some of them will have crafted an epic spell to render them 'immune to anything, yes, even that'(basically a Divine or Arcane version of Timeless Body, only Epic), with Dweomerkeeper to render it un-disjunctionable, and using another epic spell(Ward:AMF), rendered them immune to AMFs. This is why something needs stats to be killable, otherwise it's Schrodinger's God. And even if I had to stat them out, there's ways to render a 21st level Wizard literally unkillable(the above method), let alone a major deity. Something like the Lady...I wouldn't count on the most idiotic of fiat keeping her down.

nyjastul69
2009-12-07, 03:56 AM
I would also note thin is the Foreword by Tim Kask in that book:

"This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?"

Does it qualify as irony that in attempting to put the uber-powergamers "in their place" they inadvertantly created the entire concept of "If it has stats, I can kill it!"?

It seems to be a cycle:
If something has a name, someone wants to give it stats.
If something has stats, someone wants to kill it.
If someone kills it, someone is irked by it. :smalltongue:

As for the Lady of Pain, I will note that it was a design decision not to give her stats just so nobody could ever (try to) kill her.
That is the only way to really prevent it, some author somewhere just has to say "No", and the line editor has to accept and enforce the ban on subsequent authors.

I agree that statting Gods is stupid. I was just trying to point out that the idea was much before AD&D. Nice quote BTW. Tim Kask had the best Dragon Magazine games.

Jerthanis
2009-12-07, 05:34 AM
And again, it's questionable if it works. We're talking about Epic-level Wizards here, some of them with divine ranks(which means they get 20 weeks warning that this is coming. Some of them will have crafted an epic spell to render them 'immune to anything, yes, even that'(basically a Divine or Arcane version of Timeless Body, only Epic), with Dweomerkeeper to render it un-disjunctionable, and using another epic spell(Ward:AMF), rendered them immune to AMFs. This is why something needs stats to be killable, otherwise it's Schrodinger's God. And even if I had to stat them out, there's ways to render a 21st level Wizard literally unkillable(the above method), let alone a major deity. Something like the Lady...I wouldn't count on the most idiotic of fiat keeping her down.

What is being said is that you have a piece of paper, and that piece of paper is lit on fire.

The piece of paper burns, even if you wrote "this piece of paper is non-flammable" on that paper. It will quickly be nothing but ash.

So everything on the piece of paper of the universe is destroyed when the piece of paper is destroyed just like everything that exists is destroyed if all of existence is destoyed.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-07, 06:44 AM
Except who would be around to hand out xp for them then? And who would run all NPCs? The entire world would grind to a halt right then and there! THERE WOULD BE NO TOMMORROW! NO FUTURE! NO HOPE!!!
In the immortal words of the DOCTOR: Yeah! And doesn't that scare you to death?

Blackfang108
2009-12-07, 09:44 AM
Who/what/how created/caused that explosion though, I'm not sure even dieties can do that, unless i'm overlooking or forgetting something...

Oh.

Um...

That was my bad. :smallbiggrin:

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-07, 09:54 AM
So, yeah, you CAN kill everything if you're willing to ignore pretty much everything a player wants to try. Which is possible for any DM. Except that it

A: Proves nothing, as the gods are under your control in the first place.

B: Is nothing more than, what, a show of ego? I mean, really. There's no point in proving it that way.

Talya
2009-12-07, 09:58 AM
Speak for yourself.

I like 4E story concepts a lot more than previous editions.


I agree with the "Speak for yourself" comment. However, that's where we separate. I hate ALL of the story concepts for 4e, not just the killing of Eilistraee.

Eilistraee is the only drow god I'd consider for one of my own characters. I don't play evil, but I love the whole idea of a rebellious bunch of CG drow women fighting to redeem their people.

Plus the way they wrote Eilistraeen worship ceremonies is rather awesome. I prefer my religion to be overtly sexual in nature.

Quietus
2009-12-07, 10:22 AM
I agree with the "Speak for yourself" comment. However, that's where we separate. I hate ALL of the story concepts for 4e, not just the killing of Eilistraee.

Eilistraee is the only drow god I'd consider for one of my own characters. I don't play evil, but I love the whole idea of a rebellious bunch of CG drow women fighting to redeem their people.

Plus the way they wrote Eilistraeen worship ceremonies is rather awesome. I prefer my religion to be overtly sexual in nature.

I think I love you. In that "I had never heard about these ceremonies, and wish to hear more" platonic way, of course. Anything else would be creepy.

Is there a book where they actually wrote anything more than "THESE PEOPLE WORSHIP BY HAVING SEX ALL THE TIME!"?

Kris Strife
2009-12-07, 10:40 AM
I think I love you. In that "I had never heard about these ceremonies, and wish to hear more" platonic way, of course. Anything else would be creepy.

Is there a book where they actually wrote anything more than "THESE PEOPLE WORSHIP BY HAVING SEX ALL THE TIME!"?

Lets see, Lloth has BDSM afficianados for priestesses a race, Tiamat is constantly having kids, not even gonna start on the Evil Outsider cults... Nerull and Vecna cults are where you get the Lich Loved feat... All elves love themselves. Dwarves have the 'Thunder Blessing' which increased their birth rates...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 11:04 AM
What is being said is that you have a piece of paper, and that piece of paper is lit on fire.

The piece of paper burns, even if you wrote "this piece of paper is non-flammable" on that paper. It will quickly be nothing but ash.

So everything on the piece of paper of the universe is destroyed when the piece of paper is destroyed just like everything that exists is destroyed if all of existence is destoyed.No, what we have here is you trying to create the Kobayashi Maru. And us coming up with ways to survive it. And you saying, "No, that doesn't work". We're getting to a point where nothing could cause this explosion, the combined power of all the gods wouldn't be enough, and you still aren't doing enough to actually kill certain builds.

You said it was possible to kill something that didn't have stats. I am not convinced, simply because this massive explosion couldn't kill my aforementioned Epic buff-obsessed Wizard. TBH, I don't know anything that could. Figure out any gap in his defenses, any at all, and then we can continue the escalation.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 11:44 AM
@OP: I believe the short answer to this is, "yes."

Talya
2009-12-07, 11:46 AM
I think I love you. In that "I had never heard about these ceremonies, and wish to hear more" platonic way, of course. Anything else would be creepy.

Is there a book where they actually wrote anything more than "THESE PEOPLE WORSHIP BY HAVING SEX ALL THE TIME!"?

Ed "Old Pervert" Greenwood has written several books that have depictions of Eilistraeen worship ceremonies that would be inappropriate to post here by the rules of these forums.

I'll leave some of the sexy but still "safe-for-work" details here:

All Eilistraeen ceremonies are held skyclad. Males are generally forbidden from attending (Eilistraeen religion is just as matriarchal as Llolth is.) Any surface elves who participate paint their skin black to impersonate Drow, but are otherwise still nude. Dancing ensues, rapturous music whipping them into a frenzy. Magic builds throughout like the energy in an act of coitus, charging the air. In one such scene the high priestess Qilue was grinding her nether regions against an orb on an altar all the way to a climax that magically spread to all in attendance as the magic in the air convulsed through them...

Yeah. I liked Eilistraee.

nyjastul69
2009-12-07, 02:32 PM
I agree that statting Gods is stupid. I was just trying to point out that the idea was much before AD&D. Nice quote BTW. Tim Kask had the best Dragon Magazine games.

It was Tom Wham who designed the Dragon Magazine games I was thinking of, not Tim Kask. Sorry for that brain fart.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 03:52 PM
No, what we have here is you trying to create the Kobayashi Maru. And us coming up with ways to survive it. And you saying, "No, that doesn't work". We're getting to a point where nothing could cause this explosion, the combined power of all the gods wouldn't be enough, and you still aren't doing enough to actually kill certain builds.

You said it was possible to kill something that didn't have stats. I am not convinced, simply because this massive explosion couldn't kill my aforementioned Epic buff-obsessed Wizard. TBH, I don't know anything that could. Figure out any gap in his defenses, any at all, and then we can continue the escalation.

I still don't see how he can be considered to have any defences against such an event, when one of the first things that happens is that his defences themselves, at an elemental level, cease to exist in a violent explosion.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 04:07 PM
I still don't see how he can be considered to have any defences against such an event, when one of the first things that happens is that his defences themselves, at an elemental level, cease to exist in a violent explosion.

The Mind Flayers did it... Well, they kinda dodged it temporarily

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 05:14 PM
I still don't see how he can be considered to have any defences against such an event, when one of the first things that happens is that his defences themselves, at an elemental level, cease to exist in a violent explosion.That doesn't work, simply because nothing can remove that spell(Su ability from a caster who is immune to AMFs through another Su ability) except the Wizard who cast it.

I had to make a defense-obsessed build with immunities for his immunities, but it's possible to make builds with literally no gaps in their protections. It's just not easy, nor is it reasonable for most games, seeing as how it relies on being Epic.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-07, 06:06 PM
I find it offensive that Azathoth is even statted. No mortal should be able to reasonably consider even attempting to harm him.

It seems you have never heard of a little White Wolf RPG called Exalted. It's about mortals who kill gods.

oxybe
2009-12-07, 06:12 PM
It seems you have never heard of a little White Wolf RPG called Exalted. It's about mortals who kill gods.

i would be hard pressed to call Exalted PCs mortals (if only define mortal as "can technically be killed"). Exalted PCs don't just start with a level of Badass... they already mastered the base PrC and are far into it's Epic Progression.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 06:21 PM
That doesn't work, simply because nothing can remove that spell(Su ability from a caster who is immune to AMFs through another Su ability) except the Wizard who cast it.

I had to make a defense-obsessed build with immunities for his immunities, but it's possible to make builds with literally no gaps in their protections. It's just not easy, nor is it reasonable for most games, seeing as how it relies on being Epic.

I don't think you're really listening. A Wizard cast it, right? It is 'magic', right? Consisting of some kind of magical energy field or so on that enforces it's effect on Reality. The individual componants of the thing cease to exist, because everything is ceasing to exist, including the raw magical elements that are currently woven around this wizard.

But lets assume, for one mind numbingly stubborn moment, that despite the fact that magic, the laws of magic and every single thaum in and plane of reality ever just went bang the explodey entropic-victory fails to directly effect him.

How does he survive the death of reality? He has no space to exist in, let alone air to breath or time with which to take the act of breathing. There is no light, no sound, nothing. Reality divided by 0, existence-uninstalled.

Exactly how, even assuming you continue the earlier fact can the wizard survive, and in what manner?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 06:28 PM
I don't think you're really listening. A Wizard cast it, right? It is 'magic', right? Consisting of some kind of magical energy field or so on that enforces it's effect on Reality. The individual componants of the thing cease to exist, because everything is ceasing to exist, including the raw magical elements that are currently woven around this wizard.

But lets assume, for one mind numbingly stubborn moment, that despite the fact that magic, the laws of magic and every single thaum in and plane of reality ever just went bang the explodey entropic-victory fails to directly effect him.

How does he survive the death of reality? He has no space to exist in, let alone air to breath or time with which to take the act of breathing. There is no light, no sound, nothing. Reality divided by 0, existence-uninstalled.

Exactly how, even assuming you continue the earlier fact can the wizard survive, and in what manner?Ring of Sustenance, Necklace of Adaptation, and Genesis.

And the magic survives because it's an SU ability that even functions in an AMF. There is literally no way to remove it other than the Wizard choosing to or the duration running out.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 06:40 PM
Ring of Sustenance, Necklace of Adaptation, and Genesis.

And the magic survives because it's an SU ability that even functions in an AMF. There is literally no way to remove it other than the Wizard choosing to or the duration running out.

Where does he exist. Point to him. What does he do, in the timeless lightless nothingness.

Not a void, because space went up along with time. Describe him. There's no point describing his day, because, well, see above.

Leave the rules-text for a minute. Prove he is alive.

Biology

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a 'characteristic' of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[16][17]

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

Proposed

To reflect the minimum phenomena required, some have proposed other biological definitions of life:

* Living things are systems that tend to respond to changes in their environment, and inside themselves, in such a way as to promote their own continuation.[17]
* A network of inferior negative feedbacks (regulatory mechanisms) subordinated to a superior positive feedback (potential of expansion, reproduction).[18]
* A systemic definition of life is that living things are self-organizing and autopoietic (self-producing). Variations of this definition include Stuart Kauffman's definition as an autonomous agent or a multi-agent system capable of reproducing itself or themselves, and of completing at least one thermodynamic work cycle.[19]
* Life is a self-sustained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.[20]

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 07:07 PM
Where does he exist. Point to him. What does he do, in the timeless lightless nothingness.

Not a void, because space went up along with time. Describe him. There's no point describing his day, because, well, see above.

Leave the rules-text for a minute. Prove he is alive.He remains exactly as he was before the explosion. None of it affected him, and he can set it up so he remains unaffected until his casting of Genesis completes. However, if you want proof,
Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a 'characteristic' of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[16][17]

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.1 and 2 are unchanged since he was immune to the explosion. 3 is provable by removing the Ring of Sustenance, which would cause him to starve, though he would not do that willingly. 4 is questionable in any adult being. 5 I'm not touching on this board. 6 simply requires stimuli, which any caster can create. 7 is Origin of Species.

More generally, the absence of everything does not affect this character. He remains exactly as he was, and can continue to operate. A simple Contingent MMM(rendered immune to the explosion, of course) can even insure that he has a place to do so, though I doubt it's necessary.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 07:14 PM
He remains exactly as he was before the explosion. None of it affected him, and he can set it up so he remains unaffected until his casting of Genesis completes. However, if you want proof, 1 and 2 are unchanged since he was immune to the explosion. 3 is provable by removing the Ring of Sustenance, which would cause him to starve, though he would not do that willingly. 4 is questionable in any adult being. 5 I'm not touching on this board. 6 simply requires stimuli, which any caster can create. 7 is Origin of Species.

More generally, the absence of everything does not affect this character. He remains exactly as he was, and can continue to operate. A simple Contingent MMM(rendered immune to the explosion, of course) can even insure that he has a place to do so, though I doubt it's necessary.

He cannot cast genesis, because there is no round and no actions. Time has died. That doesn't mean that you aren't going to be developing wrinkles, that means that events no longer progress. at all.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 07:29 PM
My imperfect understanding of Physics leads me to understand that, since the big bang, our universe is expanding. It will however eventually collapse in on itself, ending time and space. However, this is a process that may repeat itself.

If the Wizard can trip himself out to survive the end of space time itself, I suppose he would himself become the material componant of the next big bang.

Chrono22
2009-12-07, 07:31 PM
This wizard you two are debating about sounds alot like a vestige. A being who is trapped in a contradiction- he exists, but does not exist- a Schrodinger's wizard.
The far realm is timeless- things exist there... but at the same time they aren't a part of existence.

Asbestos
2009-12-07, 07:32 PM
It seems you have never heard of a little White Wolf RPG called Exalted. It's about mortals who kill gods.

By some definition of mortal and some definitions of gods this is true. When gods are killable are they not just extremely powerful mortals?

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 07:35 PM
By some definition of mortal and some definitions of gods this is true. When gods are killable are they not just extremely powerful mortals?

The Ancient Greek word for gods actually translates as 'deathless ones.' On the other hand Norse Mythology holds that all the gods WILL die. It depends on who you ask I think.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 07:59 PM
They won't stat the general of gehenna. He's managed to avoid being statted for the past three editions, and seing as how Gehenna, nor the great wheel or even the yugoloths as a race still exists in 4e, the lord of all yugoloths has no need to worry about being statted and thus becoming killable.

Kris Strife
2009-12-07, 07:59 PM
He cannot cast genesis, because there is no round and no actions. Time has died. That doesn't mean that you aren't going to be developing wrinkles, that means that events no longer progress. at all.

Thats why you make sure the epic level spell you researched can be cast as a free action.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:00 PM
Thats why you make sure the epic level spell you researched can be cast as a free action.

Free actions do take up time to do, they just don't take up a lot of it.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 08:03 PM
Free actions do take up time to do, they just don't take up a lot of it.

Hence the 'DM can call a limit if the player uses too many' proviso that keeps people from reciting the entire works of shakespear on each turn.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:04 PM
Even miscellaneous actions, which take up the least amount of time of any action, still take a few fractions of a second to do. If time is frozen, the only place where anything will continue is the Far realm, because time and space are meaningless there, as are all laws of physics and common sense.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 08:07 PM
Even miscellaneous actions, which take up the least amount of time of any action, still take a few fractions of a second to do. If time is frozen, the only place where anything will continue is the Far realm, because time and space are meaningless there, as are all laws of physics and common sense.

The Far-Realm's equivalent of space, time, and so on, have also exploded. Given that it is part of Reality, even if it is outside of the reality that anything not from the far realm is capable of understanding.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:09 PM
The Far-Realm's equivalent of space, time, and so on, have also exploded. Given that it is part of Reality, even if it is outside of the reality that anything not from the far realm is capable of understanding.

I always wondered, if you can survive there, as father Ilymic, a CR 18 monster who can kill a sun within a year by just being awake, is a mere mote of thought given flesh, can the Far Realm be used as a time machine of sorts?

Fhaolan
2009-12-07, 08:14 PM
If the Wizard can trip himself out to survive the end of space time itself, I suppose he would himself become the material componant of the next big bang.

This is an interesting thought experiment. The only frame of reference is his own existance, physical and temporaly divorced from anything else. He could be expanding at internally relativistic velocities, *and not notice*. Entire planes could spawn inside of him, and die, in a blink of his own eye, because their temporal basis could be completely out of phase with him.

And then something comes along and objects to him being, and it all happens again with only a single survivor of the reality that was him....

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:16 PM
This is an interesting thought experiment. The only frame of reference is his own existance, physical and temporaly divorced from anything else. He could be expanding at internally relativistic velocities, *and not notice*. Entire planes could spawn inside of him, and die, in a blink of his own eye, because their temporal basis could be completely out of phase with him.

And then something comes along and objects to him being, and it all happens again with only a single survivor of the reality that was him....

There is a frame of reference. And that's the far realm, but that's not a particularly good frame of reference to go by. What with all the horrible monstrosities that would make all the epic wizards in all the worlds crap themselves out of abject terror.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-07, 08:16 PM
Ehhhh...
Is the Far Realm part of "reality"? At this point, what is "reality"? You're getting into metaphysical **** here, man. We're going to be bumping our preconceptions together.

I'd go with Ladorak's interpretation. Time and space cease to exist, but the wizard still exists. The wizard becomes the material for the next Big Bang, thereby creating time (and space) and allowing him to exist. Or, alternatively, Chrono22's interpretation, where the wizard is a vestige, i.e. a paradox. It exists, probably not "alive" by most standards, and cannot be bound by any binders.

What's the point of this? Your original post said: "If it exists, we can kill it". There's no "we" involved in the matter. If the DM (singular) says it exists, the DM (singular) can make it not-exist. There's no way for a PC to cause such a thing without being a mere hanger-on to DM fiat.

But then again, your original post had a YMMV disclaimer, which makes the existence of this argument confusing...

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:19 PM
Ehhhh...
Is the Far Realm part of "reality"? At this point, what is "reality"? You're getting into metaphysical **** here, man. We're going to be bumping our preconceptions together.

I'd go with Ladorak's interpretation. Time and space cease to exist, but the wizard still exists. The wizard becomes the material for the next Big Bang, thereby creating time (and space) and allowing him to exist. Or, alternatively, Chrono22's interpretation, where the wizard is a vestige, i.e. a paradox. It exists, probably not "alive" by most standards, and cannot be bound by any binders.

What's the point of this? Your original post said: "If it exists, we can kill it". There's no "we" involved in the matter. If the DM (singular) says it exists, the DM (singular) can make it not-exist. There's no way for a PC to cause such a thing without being a mere hanger-on to DM fiat.

But then again, your original post had a YMMV disclaimer, which makes the existence of this argument confusing...
The Far realm is a constant between pretty much all cosmologies. From Faerun to Greyhawk, it rears it's ugly head. I don't know if it's in ravenloft, but if it is, then it probably cranks up how terrifying and maddening it is to a level that would make H.P lovecraft, John Romero, And Stephen King all die from fear.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 08:39 PM
This is an interesting thought experiment. The only frame of reference is his own existance, physical and temporaly divorced from anything else. He could be expanding at internally relativistic velocities, *and not notice*. Entire planes could spawn inside of him, and die, in a blink of his own eye, because their temporal basis could be completely out of phase with him.

And then something comes along and objects to him being, and it all happens again with only a single survivor of the reality that was him....

Did... did we just stat God? Does... Does that mean we can kill him now?

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:41 PM
Did... did we just stat God? Does... Does that mean we can kill him now?

Bleh...I already killed him with a great axe forged by the Great Green Arkleseltzer with my Half Dragon Black Scale Lizard Folk fighter. Wasn't too hard....He was beaten off by iron chariots before after all....What a wuss...

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 08:44 PM
What's the point of this? Your original post said: "If it exists, we can kill it". There's no "we" involved in the matter. If the DM (singular) says it exists, the DM (singular) can make it not-exist. There's no way for a PC to cause such a thing without being a mere hanger-on to DM fiat.

But then again, your original post had a YMMV disclaimer, which makes the existence of this argument confusing...

Eh, the point has been mangled by a spot of fingers-in-ears denial. It was, as I did state a little while ago, as follows;

DM Fiat, and/or the complete and utter destruction of everything that is, was, ever will be and ever was, never was, might have been or otherwise, can pretty much kill anything that exists.

Therefore, anything that Exists can be killed, by something at least. The only question that remains is how much it takes.

If we're going the nu-hu! rules lawyering route, a mindflayer can kill absolutely anything that isn't a plant, ooze, construct, elemental or undead and that doesn't have multiple heads simply by succeeding on a grapple check when it started that round with 4 tentacles attatched. I'm pretty sure that suitably stupid epic magic can be crafter to insure that the illithid is automatically and without chance of failure allowed to get into such a position and succeed on the check.

Haven
2009-12-07, 09:04 PM
Eh, the point has been mangled by a spot of fingers-in-ears denial. It was, as I did state a little while ago, as follows;

DM Fiat, and/or the complete and utter destruction of everything that is, was, ever will be and ever was, never was, might have been or otherwise, can pretty much kill anything that exists.

Yes, okay, you can kill something with your utterly ridiculous explosion that destroys everything ever, including things that aren't things, for which you haven't even provided an explanation.

But there aren't any rules for that, so it's not a useful contribution to a discussion about statting things up. In fact, I'm rather hard pressed to find a topic about which the comment "Let's say we have an explosion--don't mind how or why or what--that destroys everything. Would it destroy everything?" would actually be useful.

Ehra
2009-12-07, 09:36 PM
This argument is ridiculous. It's like having a videogame that has NPCs that are untargetable and literally impossible to kill, then someone goes "HEY GUYS, YOU CAN KILL THEM JUST FINE BY BREAKING THE GAME DISK OR REMOVING THEM FROM THE GAME DATA. I'M SO CLEVER."

Awesome. Can we get back to what's actually in the game now?



And to top things all off, if you destroy time then the unstated Uber God never existed in the first place, which means you never killed them.

Karu
2009-12-08, 02:52 AM
Here's a trick... take the Demon Lord's page in the Monster Manual and... pretend there are no stats there. If you really really need to use the stats, well, look, they're back in the book.

If you want your players to kill Demogorgon at level 11, delevel it using the guidelines in the DMG, but try to keep the overall feel of his powers. If you think this really should be a TPK for your level 30 group's final battle, then take his stats, and crank them all up to level 100 if you want.

You know you want to...

EDIT: Some will think this is just a denial method, but, no, not really. This is an argument to those who believe the mystique of a god or demon depends on wether he has stats or not, and the case in point is that DnD is a game of the imagination, not some hard-coded bible you can't touch.

This is not believing to be "clever" by finding a way around, this is only a way of making that game yours, and telling the story you want to tell. Books are not the game, they're barely the tools to the game that -you- craft with your friends.

Talya
2009-12-09, 01:39 PM
It seems you have never heard of a little White Wolf RPG called Exalted. It's about mortals who kill gods.

Most gods in exalted are less powerful than exalts themselves.

Dixieboy
2009-12-09, 02:57 PM
[QUOTE=Ladorak;7456491]that all the gods WILL die. QUOTE]

Not ALL of them :smallredface: