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View Full Version : [3.5] So I can make a flaming whip



Ryuuk
2009-12-06, 11:37 AM
I'm planning on using the Pyrokineticist's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) Fire Lash for a character soon and I have some questions regarding it:

1) Does the user take a -4 to attack rolls for lack of proficiency?

2) What does a 'ranged touch attack' imply? (Do I use my dex for the attack roll or my strength? Can I add my str bonus to damage? Can you power attack with it? Do I provoke AoOs from attacking with it in melee?)

3) Would it being a 'ranged touch attack' mean that I can't initiate maneuvers with it?

4) Would it benefit from the pyrokineticist's own Weapon Afire ability?

Squark
2009-12-06, 11:39 AM
Not entirely sure about 2 and 3.

1) I'd say No. Would kind of put a damper on the class feature

4) No. Just no.

Edwin
2009-12-06, 11:42 AM
I'm planning on using the Pyrokineticist's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) Fire Lash for a character soon and I have some questions regarding it:

1) Does the user take a -4 to attack rolls for lack of proficiency?

2) What does a 'ranged touch attack' imply? (Do I use my dex for the attack roll or my strength? Can I add my str bonus to damage? Can you power attack with it? Do I provoke AoOs from attacking with it in melee?)

3) Would it being a 'ranged touch attack' mean that I can't initiate maneuvers with it?

4) Would it benefit from the pyrokineticist's own Weapon Afire ability?

1: Probably not. Would be sort of dumb.

2: It means you add dexterity to hit, and most likely nothing to damage, since the weapon is intangible.

3: Not very versed in that, so no idea.

4: Contrary to what Squark says, I think that, technically, it would. It qualifies as a weapon, since you can pick weapon focus for it. But it's ambiguous.

averagejoe
2009-12-06, 11:57 AM
1) I'm not sure on this one. It uses different rule for a whip, so it isn't a whip, and weapon focus/specialization and such would apply to your fire lash and not a whip. I would say yes.

2) Ranged means you add dex to hit. Touch attack means you ignore the armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to the target's armor class. You don't threaten any spaces when holding a ranged weapon, so you can't make attacks of op. with it. Similarly, power attack applies to melee attacks specifically, so you can't power attack with it. You do not add your strength bonus to damage.

3) You can initiate maneuvers that have range listed as something other than "melee attack," which probably isn't a lot of them. I don't know a lot of individual maneuvers, but I'd imagine it's doable with the right build.

4) Yes. The whip is a weapon, and the ability places no other restrictions on this.

Radar
2009-12-06, 11:58 AM
ad. 2) and yet: "A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip.". It sort of implies, that it's treated as a regular weapon.
Besides wraithstrike weapons are also treated as touch attacks and it doesn't interfer with anything.

And to be honest: fire lash not that powerfull, so denying it options, that are open for regular weapons, would make it way too weak.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-06, 12:00 PM
I'm planning on using the Pyrokineticist's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) Fire Lash for a character soon and I have some questions regarding it:

1) Does the user take a -4 to attack rolls for lack of proficiency?

2) What does a 'ranged touch attack' imply? (Do I use my dex for the attack roll or my strength? Can I add my str bonus to damage? Can you power attack with it? Do I provoke AoOs from attacking with it in melee?)

3) Would it being a 'ranged touch attack' mean that I can't initiate maneuvers with it?

4) Would it benefit from the pyrokineticist's own Weapon Afire ability?

You can do eveything a whip can do. Thus power attack (since Whips can be power attacked). Even if this whip is'nt melee, you can use feats that apply to the normal whip: so power attack, cleave, etc work because they do for a real whip.


But yes, you use Dex to attack roll. More than likely Str to damage like a whip.
Yes, you provoke since it is a ranged attack instead a melee attack with reach like a real whip.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-06, 12:28 PM
I'm planning on using the Pyrokineticist's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) Fire Lash for a character soon and I have some questions regarding it:

1) Does the user take a -4 to attack rolls for lack of proficiency?

2) What does a 'ranged touch attack' imply? (Do I use my dex for the attack roll or my strength? Can I add my str bonus to damage? Can you power attack with it? Do I provoke AoOs from attacking with it in melee?)

3) Would it being a 'ranged touch attack' mean that I can't initiate maneuvers with it?

4) Would it benefit from the pyrokineticist's own Weapon Afire ability?

1) No. Giving you a Weapon that you aren't proficient with would be insane, and if the ability reads that way it is an oversight that I assume would have been errata'd away.

2) Ranged Attack as normal, except it hits the opponent's Touch AC: normal AC - Armour, Shield, Natural Armour bonuses.

3) Dunno, never used ToB. I'd assume it being a Touch Attack wouldn't stop you using manoeuvres because it's still an attack roll, whether you can use them ranged or not is another matter.

4) Yes it can. Now pray you never come across Balor or a Fire Elemental :smallwink:

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 12:46 PM
While not "errata" per say, CA or CM says that weapons created by a spell are both light (bad for you) and the creator is auto proficient with them.

Ryuuk
2009-12-06, 01:06 PM
Well, there are answers all over the place. To stir things up even further, the 3.5 faq (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) says the following:

Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of
fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str
bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this
special weapon?
It would seem so. The wording in the description of this
psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat
that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of
those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to
apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.

I'm really hoping the raw answer to initiating maneuvers is yes. It would work great with Desert Wind, at least flavor wise (Death Mark: The whip wraps around the orc and glows bright. With a smile, the swordsage yanks it back, placing the orc at the center of a firey explosion.) It won't work against everything, being fire damage and all, but a backup weapon and maneuvers should carry you through there.

ghashxx
2009-12-06, 01:10 PM
4. I would actually say no, if only because it's not any more a weapon than melf's acid arrow creates a real weapon that can be boosted. Can a second person claiming to prepare an action "use wand to cast greater magical weapon on the acid bolt" actually get to do that? And if this is possible then that opens all kinds of windows :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-06, 01:24 PM
4. I would actually say no, if only because it's not any more a weapon than melf's acid arrow creates a real weapon that can be boosted. Can a second person claiming to prepare an action "use wand to cast greater magical weapon on the acid bolt" actually get to do that? And if this is possible then that opens all kinds of windows :smallbiggrin:

While i see your point i believe the fact that the whip is there even after you attack, it never goes away until you dismiss or drop it is why you can use the inflame ability. I would compare it to a soul knifes blades then to melfs acid arrow.

averagejoe
2009-12-06, 01:55 PM
Well, there are answers all over the place. To stir things up even further, the 3.5 faq (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) says the following:

Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of
fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str
bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this
special weapon?
It would seem so. The wording in the description of this
psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat
that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of
those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to
apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.

I'm really hoping the raw answer to initiating maneuvers is yes. It would work great with Desert Wind, at least flavor wise (Death Mark: The whip wraps around the orc and glows bright. With a smile, the swordsage yanks it back, placing the orc at the center of a firey explosion.) It won't work against everything, being fire damage and all, but a backup weapon and maneuvers should carry you through there.

When I had answered about PA I hadn't carefully considered the bit about the feat applying bit. So, I'll change my stance on that to make the answers a bit less all over the place.

I suppose if you really want to use maneuvers then you could argue that maneuvers granted by Martial Study would apply to a whip, so because of the above clause you would be able to use them with the fire lash; however, that would be a fairly shaky RAW interpretation, and one I would disagree with. I don't think it would break anything to allow maneuvers used with the lash, especially if you're intending to go desert wind, but by RAW I don't think it works.

Flickerdart
2009-12-06, 02:17 PM
Fire Lash (Ps)

A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.


Weapon Afire (Ps)

At 4th level and higher, a pyrokineticist can activate this ability as a move-equivalent action. Flames that harm neither her nor the weapon engulf one weapon she holds (which can be a projectile such as a stone, bullet, arrow, or bolt). The weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The weapon retains this effect for as long as the pyrokineticist wields it.

The relevant blurbs for Question 4. I don't see anything that won't let you use the abilities together; in fact, one could argue that it's the intended source of bonus damage for the whip. And a whip made of fire that's also on fire is perhaps the greatest thing of all time.

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 02:25 PM
Your whip is hotter, not strange at all.

ericgrau
2009-12-06, 02:25 PM
1) Since most classes don't have whip proficiency they probably don't expect you to have it before entering this class. It seems fire lash is like a whip, but not a whip.
2) Dex and not sure. By #1 no you don't add str. If so the flavor reason would be that the whips is insubstantial and thus str and power attack don't work. Otherwise the whip damage would be 1d3 nonlethal + 1d6 fire, instead of 1d8 fire.
3) Guess not.
4) No.

Flickerdart
2009-12-06, 02:34 PM
1) Since most classes don't have whip proficiency they probably don't expect you to have it before entering this class. It seems fire lash is like a whip, but not a whip.
2) Dex and not sure. By #1 no you don't add str. If so the flavor reason would be that the whips is insubstantial and thus str and power attack don't work. Otherwise the whip damage would be 1d3 nonlethal + 1d6 fire, instead of 1d8 fire.
3) Guess not.
4) No.
No, see, it's a Lash, not a Whip, so the damage makes sense. You can just take feats that work with the whip.