The Order's Solution to Illusions?

[RickDaily12]

Call me crazy, but I think they're going to need an Epic Level Spellcaster's help.

Whom do we know that exist?

Think about this one for a second. Girard is an Epic Level Sorcerer. He could be much higher in level than almost any living being in the OOTSiverse that we know of at this point. With the exception of Gods, of course. So here are my thoughts on this matter...


Logically, since Girard is Epic Level, which means he's higher than Level 21 (do to the Epic Casting feat) they may have to do the unthinkable. I think the highest level dispelling character we have is V, but if (s)he is around 14-16th level, and Girard may very well be much higher than level 21, then they may WANT to wait for Xykon and his group to arrive at the gate to dispel everything first, and then they fight. This assumes, of course, that Girard's DC is too high to overcome V's and Durkon's efforts to uncover Girard's Illusions protecting the gate.

I mean, it's either that, or they wait for Girard to come out and welcome them, right? Roy steps in and updates Girard on the situation, and enlists his aid. But come on, has Rich ever made it this easy? Like Roy said, because they're with the Sapphire Guard, he may not welcome them...

So, assuming that the latter prediction is wrong, what are your takes on this topic? Do you think that will be their end result, DESPITE their ultimate goal? I mean, I get the big picture on how that can't happen: He's in Azure City at the moment, and if the Order wins, the comic ends. If the Order loses, everyone dies. But what do you think will happen?:smallconfused:

[Ancalagon]

Xykon + Redcloak are foes that still would be dangerous foes if Girard helped the order. So one way or the other... it makes for a good story.

[Sanguine]

We have no comfirmation Girard is a Sorcerer.[/nitpick]

[DarkElfGangsta]

isn't Roy's old man a master illusionist? can't they ask him for help through Durkon or or V? or maybe that was the archon's mission - to hang out with Roy's dad to make him less of a JA?

[Ancalagon]

We have no evidence Eugene is powerful enough for anything the order does. He's an experienced adventurer and a master illusionist. That would put him at least between levels 5 and 10, closer to 10 than to 5.

Even if level 10 is already "quite powerful", it could be he's totally outclassed by what's going on around that gate. Without any evidence or hints, we should not assume Eugene is significantly higher (3 or more levels) than level 10.

[DarkElfGangsta]

We have no evidence Eugene is powerful enough for anything the order does. He's an experienced adventurer and a master illusionist. That would put him at least between levels 5 and 10, closer to 10 than to 5.

Even if level 10 is already "quite powerful", it could be he's totally outclassed by what's going on around that gate. Without any evidence or hints, we should not assume Eugene is significantly higher (3 or more levels) than level 10.

but he cast an epic level spell in order to spy on the party when roy was dead!
btw where does it say that girard is an epic level caster?
he could just be really clever about castig them and not be high level rite?

[Morty]

but he cast an epic level spell in order to spy on the party when roy was dead!


He only had access to epic-level scrying because Celestia provided it.

[Ancalagon]

but he cast an epic level spell in order to spy on the party when roy was dead!

He did? Was simply "Scry", no? Powered by "the heavens", that improve that spellcasting... the place from where he casted had "Epic Inside", that does not have to mean Eugene. In fact, Eugene being epic himself seems a bit of a strech. As I said: Possible, but so far we have NO hint or evidence of that.

[TriForce]

well, first of all i think you are assuming too much, all we know is that girard is a illusionist, that could be anything from wizard to sorcerer to bard and any combination of those with something else.

also, not every epic caster can cast epic spells, ofc, they are powerful and all, but this comic makes it very clear that not everyone has a optimized char, ( and imho thats a very good thing, optimized chars are boring as hell) so he might not have taken the epic spell feat at all.

non-epic charecters can still dispel epic spells ( with a little luck)

AND dont forget, the order doesnt want to dispel anything at all, they want to contact girard and help him defend the gate, it would be dumb to dispel some of his primairy defences

[factotum]

well, first of all i think you are assuming too much, all we know is that girard is a illusionist

It could even be that he's an actual illusionist--that class existed in versions of D&D prior to 3.0. How he would have got converted when the 3.0 upgrade happened is another matter!

[Kish]

It could even be that he's an actual illusionist--that class existed in versions of D&D prior to 3.0. How he would have got converted when the 3.0 upgrade happened is another matter!
That was just first edition, actually.

2ed had specialist mages, as 3.xed has specialist wizards. You didn't get to pick your barred schools; from a certain point of view, specialist was a class (or even eight classes), but "illusionist" and not "conjurer" or "diviner" as a full class is a relic of 1ed.

[Thanatosia]

isn't Roy's old man a master illusionist? can't they ask him for help through Durkon or or V? or maybe that was the archon's mission - to hang out with Roy's dad to make him less of a JA?
Several problems with that.

First, Roy would only ask his dad for ANYTHING as a last, last, last, last, last, last super final last resort. The main reason he took up the kill Xykon quest is to prove to his dad that he could suceed where Eugene could not. There is no way I see Roy even considering asking his father for help in something like this until the situation gets much more dire.

Second... Eugene died of old age and cannot be ressurected or brought back to life by any means - if he could be brought back at all 'Uncle Myrtok' almost certainly would have done so already. Wich means his ability to act to aid the order on the material plane is pretty much null.

[RickDaily12]

well, first of all i think you are assuming too much, all we know is that girard is a illusionist, that could be anything from wizard to sorcerer to bard and any combination of those with something else.

also, not every epic caster can cast epic spells, ofc, they are powerful and all, but this comic makes it very clear that not everyone has a optimized char, ( and imho thats a very good thing, optimized chars are boring as hell) so he might not have taken the epic spell feat at all.

Not so fast. This comic has ALSO made it clear that Girard was a MASTER ILLUSIONIST. Rich gave us over 300 comic strips with Azure City and its gate. Why would he give us 20 with Girard? I find it very likely that Girard will not be inviting, or at the very least, for the time being. By this, I don't think he's going to make an appearance just yet. I figure that he wants to test his own epic level illusions against the Order, until said thing ephiany will cause him to finally cooperate. But I don't predict that happening for a while. In fact, I bet we're about to cut away to the Linear Guild very soon, or some other characters...:smallamused:

In any case, like I said: Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, in Soon's old adventuring party were each over level 21. This assumes, of course, that everyone was the same sort of level catagory, which ultimately cannot be proven. However... with that said, consider that they had to fight off some pieces of the Snarl plus other varieties of creatures to get to sealing each one off. And why have each person guard a gate by themself if they didn't have the potential to do so? If there were ever such a charge as "weakening the fabric of the universe", then why the heck would they ever make it easy to be charged with one of those?!?!:smalltongue:

Bottom line is, if me and you can't ultimately prove a thing, then we're stuck with comic facts. These dictate that each person is a big enough threat that Xykon wants each and every one hit with Soul Bind. So be logical. What does that tell us?


non-epic charecters can still dispel epic spells ( with a little luck)

Never once did I say they couldn't. All I'm saying is, that both comicly AND realisticly, how likely do you think it is that they can be able to pierce an illusion? The DCs on those spells will be mighty high, which is why the True Seeing spells are doing next to nothing here.

Also, many of his best illusions were casted, so multiply that fraction by about 20. You can see this back during the trial with the crayon comics.:smallamused:


AND dont forget, the order doesnt want to dispel anything at all, they want to contact girard and help him defend the gate, it would be dumb to dispel some of his primairy defences

Oh? Then tell me what they would do should Girard not want to be found?

Remember, this is Girard we're debating about. He left the party ticked at pretty much everyone on that day. I bet he is going to do the same trick Dorukan did and hide until he knows there's a very good reason to come out, back in Start of Darkness with Redcloak and Xykon. Should this be true, then we're back at looking at the Order relying on just chance here...

And keep in mind, we don't even know if that is the case. Girard could even be dead, or lost right now.

Also, let me make a correction please: If Girard is a specialist in Illusions, then he must be a multiclass ranger/wizard. Well, ranger or fighter really, but more likely ranger, since he was the party's tracker.:smallwink:

Any other thoughts on this matter?

[DarkElfGangsta]

oh. hmm. the inky other option I can think of is Thor niking the desert or giving Durkon true seeing

[RickDaily12]

"That's not right, that's not even wrong."

Okay, that is now sigged, with your permission of course.:smallbiggrin:

[DarkElfGangsta]

Okay, that is now sigged, with your permission of course.:smallbiggrin:

go right ahead. something my Rabbi said.:smallsmile:

[RickDaily12]

So, what does Eugene being an illusionist have anything to do with this? He isn't higher than Girard...

Also, speaking of which, are we ever going to see him pop out of the sword again? I miss Roy being so annoyed with him...

[Kish]

Okay, that is now sigged, with your permission of course.:smallbiggrin:

go right ahead. something my Rabbi said.:smallsmile:
And Wolfgang Pauli before him.

[DarkElfGangsta]

And Wolfgang Pauli before him.

the actor or the mathematician?
I guess he was qoutin him

[jamroar]

So, what does Eugene being an illusionist have anything to do with this? He isn't higher than Girard...


But is he a better illusionist? Girard may be epic, but looks decidedly like a gish, wearing chainmail and dual-wielding, and is possibly multiclassed, gestalt, or else very foolhardy.

[Kish]

the actor or the mathematician?

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/498.html

I doubt very much if Eugene can hold a candle to Girard, who has been presented as the master of illusions, as an illusionist.

[Eloel]

There's also a good chance that Girard is actually a Bard.
Illusionist? Check.
Armor? Check.
Potential for weapon-wielding smackdown? Check.
Epic Illusions (L7 is epic for Bards) ? Check.
What else?

[Zherog]

Also, let me make a correction please: If Girard is a specialist in Illusions, then he must be a multiclass ranger/wizard. Well, ranger or fighter really, but more likely ranger, since he was the party's tracker.:smallwink:

He could track without being a ranger. All it would require would be the selection of one feat and then the expenditure of cross-class ranks in Survival.

[Hatchet]

There's also a good chance that Girard is actually a Bard.
Illusionist? Check.
Armor? Check.
Potential for weapon-wielding smackdown? Check.
Epic Illusions (L7 is epic for Bards) ? Check.
What else?

Bards can't be epic spellcasters, you need to be able to cast 9th level spells to qualify for the Epic Spellcasting feat.

[hamishspence]

9th level spells can be gotten- through taking Improved Spell Capacity enough times.

That said, it would require Girard to be quite high level in epic- enough to take several epic feats.

[Hatchet]

9th level spells can be gotten- through taking Improved Spell Capacity enough times.

That said, it would require Girard to be quite high level in epic- enough to take several epic feats.

I just checked, if he's a bard, he could get Improved Spell Capacity x3 plus Epic Spellcasting by level 26. Hey, that's actually pretty reasonable. :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

Where is it stated that Girard was an Epic spellcaster? I agree that it's a reasonable conclusion, but do we know it?

[hamishspence]

Aside from:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

"Girard was capable of some of the most powerful illusions ever devised"

there isn't much of a clue, as to whether this means Epic or not.

Seems plausible, but not proven.

[Ancalagon]

Where is it stated that Girard was an Epic spellcaster? I agree that it's a reasonable conclusion, but do we know it?

His group members were epic. We know it for sure for Dorukan (epic spell + lots of level 9 spells to throw at Xykon) and it's very likely for Soon, given how he fought against Xykon. Lirian also was very powerful, at least near level 20 (she had at least one level 9 spell and her "custom" stuff shown in Start of Darkness could be interpreted as epic spell). If her groupies were epic, why not she herself as well? The same reasoning goes for Girard.

[TriForce]

Not so fast. This comic has ALSO made it clear that Girard was a MASTER ILLUSIONIST. Rich gave us over 300 comic strips with Azure City and its gate. Why would he give us 20 with Girard? I find it very likely that Girard will not be inviting, or at the very least, for the time being. By this, I don't think he's going to make an appearance just yet. I figure that he wants to test his own epic level illusions against the Order, until said thing ephiany will cause him to finally cooperate. But I don't predict that happening for a while. In fact, I bet we're about to cut away to the Linear Guild very soon, or some other characters...:smallamused:

In any case, like I said: Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, in Soon's old adventuring party were each over level 21. This assumes, of course, that everyone was the same sort of level catagory, which ultimately cannot be proven. However... with that said, consider that they had to fight off some pieces of the Snarl plus other varieties of creatures to get to sealing each one off. And why have each person guard a gate by themself if they didn't have the potential to do so? If there were ever such a charge as "weakening the fabric of the universe", then why the heck would they ever make it easy to be charged with one of those?!?!:smalltongue:

Bottom line is, if me and you can't ultimately prove a thing, then we're stuck with comic facts. These dictate that each person is a big enough threat that Xykon wants each and every one hit with Soul Bind. So be logical. What does that tell us?



Never once did I say they couldn't. All I'm saying is, that both comicly AND realisticly, how likely do you think it is that they can be able to pierce an illusion? The DCs on those spells will be mighty high, which is why the True Seeing spells are doing next to nothing here.

Also, many of his best illusions were casted, so multiply that fraction by about 20. You can see this back during the trial with the crayon comics.:smallamused:



Oh? Then tell me what they would do should Girard not want to be found?

Remember, this is Girard we're debating about. He left the party ticked at pretty much everyone on that day. I bet he is going to do the same trick Dorukan did and hide until he knows there's a very good reason to come out, back in Start of Darkness with Redcloak and Xykon. Should this be true, then we're back at looking at the Order relying on just chance here...

And keep in mind, we don't even know if that is the case. Girard could even be dead, or lost right now.

Also, let me make a correction please: If Girard is a specialist in Illusions, then he must be a multiclass ranger/wizard. Well, ranger or fighter really, but more likely ranger, since he was the party's tracker.:smallwink:

Any other thoughts on this matter?

yes i do actually....

its never officially stated that girard was a MASTER illusionist anywhere exept redcloacks assumption that he is... given that he doesnt know as much as soon and most his info about the OotScribble is from a diary from a halfling girl who was (probably) in love with girard, id say its safe to say he could be wrong.

also, i never stated girard wouldnt be epic, ofc he will be ( if hes still alive) but if your a lvl 25 bard, your still epic, and a illusionist, and probably not someone who can cast epic spells.

how many comics the giant will point at him isnt someting i talked about at all, so im skipping that one

true seeing doesnt depend on DC, so it should pierce every illusion not specifically made to fool it.

and girard doesnt want to be found, thats obvious, thats why they are searching every inch of that place. dispelling any illusions however,regardless if they can see through them or not, still is a dumb thing to do


His group members were epic. We know it for sure for Dorukan (epic spell + lots of level 9 spells to throw at Xykon) and it's very likely for Soon, given how he fought against Xykon. Lirian also was very powerful, at least near level 20 (she had at least one level 9 spell and her "custom" stuff shown in Start of Darkness could be interpreted as epic spell). If her groupies were epic, why not she herself as well? The same reasoning goes for Girard.

there is a difference between being a epic charecter, a epic spellcaster and being able to cast epic spells.

a lvl 25 bard is a epic charecter, but no epic spellcaster, and cannot cast epic spells

a lvl 25 wizard is a epic char, a epic spelcaster, but doesnt neccesairy have to be able to cast epic spells, like i said in my first post.

basically, we have no idea what girard is as class anyway, in all the crayons we see him fighting with swords, not spells, but he is described as a illusionist, wich means he can ccast spells, hes obviously epic lvl, but epic lvl what is anyone guess, he could even be a homebrew class, especially after all this speculation on the forum, id see the giant invent a class just to confuse us :smallwink:

[Watcher]

Or just solve it with a Deus ex Machina.

[Starbuck_II]

there is a difference between being a epic charecter, a epic spellcaster and being able to cast epic spells.

a lvl 25 bard is a epic charecter, but no epic spellcaster, and cannot cast epic spells

a lvl 25 wizard is a epic char, a epic spelcaster, but doesnt neccesairy have to be able to cast epic spells, like i said in my first post.

basically, we have no idea what girard is as class anyway, in all the crayons we see him fighting with swords, not spells, but he is described as a illusionist, wich means he can ccast spells, hes obviously epic lvl, but epic lvl what is anyone guess, he could even be a homebrew class, especially after all this speculation on the forum, id see the giant invent a class just to confuse us :smallwink:

So let him be level 26 and an epic spellcaster. Why can't the Bard be highest level?

[Beorn080]

Ya know, Roy's dad could scry through the illusions with the power of Epic Inside, then appear to Roy when he's sleeping within x ft of the entrance. That would significantly narrow done the search area. Plus we aren't sure of the actual limits of the appearances, but we know he already agreed to appear when Xykon set out to let Roy know he's coming.