[3.5] The Most Versatile Gestalt... (Level 1) [Archive]

Zovc

2009-12-06, 05:27 PM

gallagher

2009-12-06, 05:44 PM

I'm going to be applying to join Tanaric's Neverending Dungeon Crawl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130982).

For the sake of brevity, I'm starting as a level 1 (0 experience) gestalt character.
Character creation rules are in-line with The Arena Tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118846)'s (But, of course, I'm a level 1 gestalt instead of just a level 1 character).

There is a kicker, "respectable number of encounters, and mundane resting areas will be exceedingly rare." This made the "warlock" (/Dragonfire Adept, which I'm not that familiar with) lightbulb go off for me. I'm just not sure how good of an idea that is in the long run.

How well can a warlock serve as a Skill Monkey, and how does the class do in Gestalt? What about the Dragonfire Adept?
(Yes, the warlock's UMD prowess is respectable.)

Do you think Trapfinding is necessary? I know that Factotums, Rogues, and Scouts get it--are there any other classes? I remember seeing that Clerics can get it via a Kobold domain, but I don't know if that's WotC material.
(None of those classes would improve a Warlock's BAB, although Skirmish could be nice with Eldritch Blast.)

i played a rather fun warlock/bard gestalt once. you have the fun of never worrying about weapons or ammunition, and the awesomeness that only a bard can bring. sure people say that bards are a waste of time, but when skillfully used they are very very useful. suggestion on anyone, lots of party buffs, and decent in melee. plus lots of skillpoints, and you can bardic knowledge the crap out of anything so you have no real need to put skill points into knowledges.

that and who would you rather have infiltrate a castle, a rogue who is not welcome there, or the bard who receives an invitation to their party?

Andras

2009-12-06, 05:54 PM

How well can a warlock serve as a Skill Monkey, and how does the class do in Gestalt? What about the Dragonfire Adept?
(Yes, the warlock's UMD prowess is respectable.)

Do you think Trapfinding is necessary? I know that Factotums, Rogues, and Scouts get it--are there any other classes? I remember seeing that Clerics can get it via a Kobold domain, but I don't know if that's WotC material.
(None of those classes would improve a Warlock's BAB, although Skirmish could be nice with Eldritch Blast.)

1) Decently well. Skill monkeys typically get precision damage, which is pretty nifty when combined with EB. Add Eldritch Glaive to taste and you can be pumping out some decently respectable damage without much effort. Being able to do things like go invisible and fly at will saves quite a few skill points later, too.

2) Rangers and Barbarians can get it from a variant from some splat (Dungeonscape, if memory serves). Ninjas, Artificers, Beguilers, and Spellthieves also get it. As long as someone in your party has trapfinding, it's no biggie, but if not you'll definitely want it.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 06:07 PM

I will have no party. I'm trying to cover all bases myself, no one else is going to find traps for me. ^_^

Of the classes you listed, Andras, Spellthief is the only one who seems to have any Charisma Synergy with the 'Lock. Then again, Spellthief doesn't seem like that good of a class. >.>
(Also, no BAB or HD improvement.)

Perhaps Warlock isn't what I'm looking for?

Flickerdart

2009-12-06, 06:12 PM

Spellthief will be pretty useful, actually, since you can either get SA bonus damage from your blasts, or steal spells from your enemies, which is going to be a fairly decent way of restocking your arsenal. You might not need it with a Warlock, but if you know that a lot of enemies will have spells or SLAs, then Spellthief is a good class for endurance spellcasting purposes, and could supplement your Warlock's limited number of invocations. Then again, so could Wizard or something, so Spellthief's not exactly the best for your purposes.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 06:52 PM

Perhaps Tome of Battle classes provide a better (more synergistic) approach than Warlock does to endurance--I get my maneuvers back at the beginning of each encounter.

Swordsage has some Wisdom synergy, and has 6+Int skill points a level.
I can add Cleric or Druid on top of this, Cloistered Cleric gets Knowledge Domain for free and Bardic Knowledge. I can Give a cleric the Kobold domain (found it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) to give it Trapfinding and some silly spells. Player's Handbook has "Spontaneous Domain Casting" which lets me spontaneously cast domain spells instead of Cure or Inflict spells.

Warblade, on the other hand, has Intelligence synergy (and a respectable 4+Int skills a level), a d12, and a full BAB. That's good. I can put Factotum on the other side to get trapfinding, then follow one of those classes up with Wizard.
As a Gray Elf, I get +2 int (-2 Str and Con, though, I think), and can take racial substitution levels for wizard, essentially becoming a specialist wizard without giving up schools.

imperialspectre

2009-12-06, 07:06 PM

Warblade/Factotum is the best you can do if you're worried about not being able to rest. You get INT synergy, 2 good saves with a maneuver for your Will save, 6 skills per level, and d12 HD.

Swordsage/Cleric is all-around very strong, since you get 3 good saves, 6 skills per level, and Wisdom synergy. You have to rest to get spells back, though, and you can't Persist spells at level 1 unless you're a human and spend all your feats (or take flaws).

An Elan Factotum//Psion or Warblade//Psion is extremely strong, since you can cast in armor, build up a really strong HP tank, and basically use PP defensively while you go on offense with encounter-refreshed powers.

Finally, if you think you can eke out enough rests and you want to build for the long term, Factotum//Wizard is always the strongest gestalt given equal levels of optimization. INT synergy, two good saves, medium BAB, and the best spellcasting in the game. Go Factotum 20 and use your Factotum SLAs to duplicate good spells from your banned schools; you'll of course go Focused Specialist before PrCing to taste.

Warlock and DFA are both fairly weak by themselves; the best you could do is probably something like Glaivelock//Paladin of Freedom for CHA synergy, a fairly strong offense coupled with good BAB, and 2 strong native saves. Remember to go Hellfire Warlock on your Warlock side; Pally of Freedom uses the Initiate of Milil feat from Champions of Valor to get Inspire Courage, then you multiclass to Crusader with Song of the White Raven.

Edited to add: Sun Elf from Feyrun gets you +2 INT/-2 CON; put Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon) on top of that to get +2 INT/-2 DEX.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 07:12 PM

I think I might try the Swordsage//Cloistered Cleric (Provided Kobold domain gets the okay).

Is there a particular third domain I should take? (Kobold, [Domain] + Knowledge from being Cloistered)

Is Cloistered Cleric worth it? I'm only losing Medium and Heavy armor, really. If I get into a different class other than Swordsage, I'll lost the Medium BAB but keep the 6+Int skills.

Are there any Prestige Classes or dips I should try to make ASAP?

Is the Spontaneous Domain Casting variant as good as I'm thinking it is?

Zom B

2009-12-06, 07:15 PM

Coming late to the party, but I have often thought that Warlock/Rogue would indeed make a nice pairing. At will invisibility and flight and a reusable energy attack (either ranged or melee with Hideous Blow) to which you can apply sneak attack dice make for a nice combination. There's also the at-will Darkness and Devil's Sight combination you can pick up right off the bat. As you mentioned, you would have UMD, so Cure wands and scrolls would be available.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 07:23 PM

I see that I can effectively get Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) as a swordsage. Will a spiked chain be worth the feat at a medium BAB?

Edit: The War domain says it gives Martial Weapon Proficiency for the deity's favored weapon... what if I worshiped a deity whose favored weapon was a ssspiked chain? Sounds like my kind of deity... to have a portfolio of Knowledge, Kobolds, and Spiked Chains War.

HCL

2009-12-06, 07:38 PM

I am already playing the elan Warblade/Psion but feel free to rip me off :)

Here is what I am thinking for my next character, personally

Darfellan (Stormwrack, has a bite attack)
Lion Totem Whirling frenzy Barbarian-->Druidic Avenger///Cloistered Cleric with Kobold domain, knowledge domain swapped for devotion, and I am not sure what else
Feats: Wolf Lodge Berserker (Unnapproachable east +4 trip attempts, substitutes for combat expertise), Improved Trip, Shape Soulmeld: rageclaws

sonofzeal

2009-12-06, 08:15 PM

I'd do Warlock//Scout over Warlock//Rogue any day of the week. Skirmish is amazingly good for a Warlock, who has Flight and mostly only standard-action attacks anyway. Doubly true if you lack Flanking buddies.

As for "most versatile gestalt", I'd actually go for Druid//Rogue1/Swordsage. Seriously, what's not to love?

Zom B

2009-12-06, 08:20 PM

I'd do Warlock//Scout over Warlock//Rogue any day of the week. Skirmish is amazingly good for a Warlock, who has Flight and mostly only standard-action attacks anyway. Doubly true if you lack Flanking buddies.

I gotta say, that's a good point. Part of the Scout's annoying factor is the need to move often around the battlefield. Being airborne makes that a lot easier. Also, since you're only plunking off one attack a round anyway, Scout is ideal.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 09:08 PM

knowledge domain swapped for devotion

That's some smelly cheese, what exactly are you referring to here?

imperialspectre

2009-12-06, 09:14 PM

It's not cheese at all. Complete Champion introduced devotion feats, and you can get Knowledge Devotion by trading out the Knowledge Domain. Cloistered Cleric gives you the Knowledge Domain for free, and enough skill points to get at least a few ranks in all the relevant Knowledge skills (you want Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, and Planes).

Lycanthromancer

2009-12-06, 09:40 PM

If you want a level 1 gestalt character with a fudge-ton of utility combined with stamina and incredible synergies, feel free to look at my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/arma49), and go shaper psion//factotum, making judicious use of 0-level talents (especially power extraction), psionic minor creation, and astral construct.

Take Linked Power to cut down manifesting times and for self-buffs, and you have someone who can take any dungeon they like, in any role they like (yes, this includes tanking, if you use constructs, a psicrystal, vigor, and share pain.

Get your groove on! Get creative! Have some serious fun!

Duke of URL

2009-12-06, 09:41 PM

I'm considering an entry in the dungeon as well. I was actually thinking Crusader // Beguiler.

I'm not fussed about MAD issues -- the objective is to survive the first few levels, get to a "save location", and then worry about a different build that can last the next few levels, and so on.

Crusaders, like all ToB classes, aren't limited in per-day abilities, plus they have a 1st-level stance and maneuver that allows the Crusader to heal himself.

Any class with trapfindng would work as the "pair", so Rogue or Beguiler jump out at me. The former gives more skill points, the latter has spellcasting, which is always a plus.

Comments/suggestions?

Siosilvar

2009-12-06, 09:44 PM

Edit: The War domain says it gives Martial Weapon Proficiency for the deity's favored weapon... what if I worshiped a deity whose favored weapon was a ssspiked chain?

You get nothing, because a spiked chain is an exotic weapon, not martial. Or technically, you get martial proficiency with the spiked chain, but not exotic, so you're still at -4 to hit with it.

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-12-06, 10:13 PM

sonofzeal

2009-12-06, 10:31 PM

some other messed up broken domain
Ah, I see you've heard of the Slime Domain (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/domain.pl?Slime), which gives you another full set of Turnings! Whether they work for DMM depends on which excerpt you quote to your DM. A bit of selective reading goes a long way! :smallcool:

Tanaric

2009-12-06, 10:35 PM

A bit of attempted shenanigans doesn't get you very far! :smallcool:

Fixed that for you.

Zovc

2009-12-06, 10:55 PM

Comments/suggestions?

While it does have its limits on resources, I have always liked Duskblade//Beguiler. All of both classes abilities are, for the most part, ambiguous enough to work for the other side, if you ask me. You get Skillmonkey and Control roles from Beguiler and Tank and Damage roles from Duskblade, sounds good to me--both sides just use spell slots. Perhaps one would do Warblade//Beguiler (or Crusader//Beguiler) at level 1, then take Duskblade?

Zovc

2009-12-06, 11:08 PM

A Swordsage/Cloistered Cleric with Kobold and X domains has my vote, especially as a human. Two flaws would be nice too.

X:
Dream: immunity to fear
Planning: Extend Spell feat (for DMM Persist)
Undeath: Extra Turning (for DMM Persist)
-or-
some other messed up broken domain

Or a Strongheart Halfling... or an Azuran, if either would fly and I don't need the skill points.

Maybe not the halfling, I don't want to shrink my damage dice, I don't think.

Tanaric

2009-12-06, 11:24 PM

Water Orc Druid//Crusader

Stats of 16, 16, 12, 10, 14, 8 before racial adjustments, become 20, 16, 14, 8, 12, 6

Take the PHBII Shapeshift variant (don't bite my head off yet, hear me out!) and walk around with a bite attack at +8 for 1d6+10. Take Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike, along with whatever else you like. Stone Bones, etc, etc.

Feats: Bladeproof Skin, Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws, 'n' somethin'oranother.

This gets you 50' movespeed, a constant AC of 17 (meh), in combat healing of at least 2 per hit with more on demand, a bite attack that should reduce anything on the first floor to negatives, out of combat healing in the form of lesser vigor, DR 3/bludgeoning, and an effective HP of 22.

This is, of course, just designed to see you through the first few floors. If you plan on surviving long enough to cast 3rd level spells, you probably would want higher wis. Also, if you plan on surviving that long, you'd probably want to retrain the crappy shapeshift variant once you can use Wild Shape.

Or, you know, just pat yourself on the back for making it that far and restart with a character more suited to 5th level play. :smalltongue:

Not exactly versatile, of course. More "Hulk smash! Hulk bite! Hulk destroy!" but it does work. With judicious application of a ten foot pole, mind. :smalltongue:

Gpope

2009-12-06, 11:52 PM

Not exactly versatile, of course. More "Hulk smash! Hulk bite! Hulk destroy!" but it does work. With judicious application of a ten foot pole, mind. :smalltongue:

Is this a tacit admission that all the encounters on the first few floors can be solved with no ranged or crowd control ability to speak of, or are you just trying to bait people to throw one-dimensional melee characters into the meatgrinder so you can laugh when they run into ceiling-walking gnome warlocks or something? :smallwink:

Tanaric

2009-12-06, 11:54 PM

Option C: You can always close the door to a room containing something you can't beat. :smallwink:

Or the ceiling-walkers are on floor 3, when the druid can reliably have spider climb available.

Zovc

2009-12-07, 12:14 AM

Question, Tanaric: what is your interpretation of the Adaptive Style feat? As a swordsage, can I ready maneuvers I already have expended with a full action?

It's looking like the best weapon I can get the Swordsage's mock focus with that won't cost me a feat is the Scimitar. I'm going for a one-handed weapon and will also use a shield--that way I can attack with the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver. X3

My choice of six maneuvers are looking like this:
Burning Blade
Stone Bones
Wolf Fang Strike
Distracting Ember
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Sudden Leap(?)

Child of Shadows seems to be the best stance available to a solo Swordsage.

Also, the Plant domain seems to give me three extra turning attempts and Entangle... does it actually give me more turning attempts or can I just use my regular turning attempts to rebuke plants?

Tanaric

2009-12-07, 12:19 AM

It gives you Rebuke Plants (3+cha modifier), as far as I know. That's not the same as Rebuke Undead, and does not fuel DMM.

Edit: And sure, Adaptive Style should work like that.

Pluto

2009-12-07, 03:21 AM

For a solo character, I strongly recommend Crusader//X.

Crusader's survival at low levels is unmatched. Take Stone Bones, Stone Power and Crusader's Strike (or whatever the level 1 heal maneuver is called).

Crusader//Cloistered Cleric will have the same skills as a Swordsage and similar AC. Use domains to get the skills you want on your class list. Reflex saves will be lower than the Swordsage, but HP regeneration will be abundant.

With a 1-man party, you're facing an action disadvantage and you'll need more maneuvers per combat than you will in a group. This is where the Swordsage is at its worst and the Crusader is at its best.

Longbow proficiency doesn't hurt, either.

...Azurin Incarnate//Crusader with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle) and Stone Power would be interesting to see. 3d6 damage with a ranged touch, huge temporary AC pool, DR and healing in melee, Soulmeld-based skill equivalents...

And since PbP games don't last long, IME, you might want to Look at the Ghaele Eladrin monster class in Savage Species:

Outsider Hit dice at ECL 1-5, 7, 9, 12, 15 and 18. (This means 8+Int skills, full BA, d8 HD, all good saves.)
Full Cleric casting until ECL 14.
50 ft land speed from level 1.
Outsider subtype for Darkvision, Low-Light vision, all weapon proficiencies, alter self/polymorph shenanigans.

...It's cheesy, but most of its weaknesses are covered in gestalt, leaving a very powerful option.

Draz74

2009-12-07, 03:45 AM

...Azurin Incarnate//Crusader with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle) and Stone Power would be interesting to see. 3d6 damage with a ranged touch, huge temporary AC pool, DR and healing in melee, Soulmeld-based skill equivalents...

Now that is what I call an impressive Level 1 high-endurance solo build. The one problem there is a great big lack of true skill points. (Sorry, Incarnate doesn't quite make up for it IME.) But yeah ... isn't there even a Soulmeld that grants Trapfinding? Nice!

At least this character could get some skill points by making INT its second or third best ability score (after CON and possibly STR).

Still, I'd be very tempted to go Rogue 1 or Factotum 1 before starting to take Incarnate levels. Crusader 20//Factotum 1/Incarnate 9/Umbral Disciple 10 ... nice.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-07, 05:05 AM

Druid of Mielikki// Warblade is good.

Take Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls for feats.
Get a rank in Knowledge (The planes), and get an air elemental companion.

Believe me, having a friend with a 100 perfect move, and having as much as a 50 move yourself (60 with longstrider), combined with vertical maneuverability, will go a long way. Use thrown weapons you can recover (Javelins are nice, as are throwing axes or daggers), and use maneuverability to keep you safe while you pummel things.

Uses for an elemental?
Carry a grapple hook rope somewhere.
Flank.
Drop objects (per Heroes of Battle rules)

There are more. Plus, elementals have a good selection of resistances/immunities.

Necron

2009-12-07, 08:12 AM

I always felt a Tomb Tainted Dread Necromancer was a great choice for solo campaigns... Heal yourself at will plus eventually you can make your own friends. Combine with all sorts of other goodness.

Combine it with another CHA class... I'd probably try the Bard.

But I'm not sure if it's "optimized" enough for you.

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-07, 08:14 AM

Dixieboy

2009-12-07, 09:36 AM

Factotum//druid?

Name one thing this monster cannot do, just one!

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-07, 09:39 AM

Factotum//druid?

Name one thing this monster cannot do, just one!

Recover spells without resting?

Dixieboy

2009-12-07, 09:40 AM

Recover spells without resting?

Damnit.

Factotum//Warlock then!

PhoenixRivers

2009-12-07, 09:41 AM

Damnit.

Factotum//Warlock then!

Reliably heal itself?

onthetown

2009-12-07, 09:57 AM

If you're doing everything yourself, you're going to want something with a higher BAB since you want part of the gestalt to be Warlock... Ranger or Fighter would be good, but since you're on your own (and Rangers can't heal at level 1, nor do they ever get a good amount to support themselves with for a gigantic dungeon) you could try to go for Cleric/Warlock gestalt. Train up Rogue skills instead of your class skills, and you'll essentially be a Cleric/Rogue/Warlock without the sneak attacks. Bring strange items that you have no idea what purpose they might serve.

So you'd be a partially divine-casting Warlock who can take care of himself and disarm all the traps himself, not to mention find creative ways out of sticky situations with those items. :smallsmile: