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elliott20
2009-12-06, 09:51 PM
We're really starting to see a LOT of homebrew ToB disciplines on this board. With this many extra homebrews out there, it's almost like we're not talking about the "fabled 10th discipline" but rather the disciplines less well known.

That is, the way I see it, it almost feels like if we could fluff this all as saying the 9 original ToB disciplines are the ones that achieved major popularity because of Reshar's personal influence and his ability to push these out to the greater public, while the other extra disciplines are more like alternate schools that just never got the same recognition that Reshar's chosen schools got.

And so I had an idea here (finally he gets to the point), what if we were to put together a netbook that catalogs all of the homebrew disciplines and in addition to just holding them there, we create additional relationships between each discipline and tie them in with the original 9 somehow?

what I mean is that when you look at most real life martial arts, a lot of them you can usually trace their lineage and influences to other schools. (and for those that are less well documented, it can often become a source of controversy)

What if we tried to do the same with the homebrews and the original 9? i.e. Chthonic Serpent that DragoonWraith wrote up had established another master alongside of Reshar, stemming from a clear divergence in philosophy, and also sort of establishes chronological order in terms of when it came into prominence. (or rather, when it was finally established as an actual school)

This could also be used as a means to collect some homebrew ToB discipline design conventions so new homebrewers can use it as a guideline as to how to make their own new school.

What do you guys think?

DracoDei
2009-12-06, 09:56 PM
Working in Falling Anvil(see my signature) would be tricky, but I am willing to give it a shot...

DragoonWraith
2009-12-06, 10:06 PM
I'd also be willing to work with Chthonic Binding in this. I already have a bit of relations between Reshar and the Discipline, but it could be fleshed out more, and of course there could be the other schools to consider.

elliott20
2009-12-06, 10:14 PM
dude, if I can get falling anvil in there and make it work, that alone will make the project worth it.

we'll have to establish a couple things first:

1. create a list of the homebrews that we're going to include
2. establish a canonical timeline
3. establish how the homebrews fit into the canonical timeline
4. dress up the details so they can be ported into the game with minimal fuss.

#1 is going to just take some good ol' fashion board scouring. I know that demented one and Fax has also made a bunch of homebrew disciplines too and I'll be picking their brains later.

#2 will take a lot of umm... creative licensing since I don't think the ToB book actually talked a great deal about Reshar and the exact chronological events that transpired. But here is what I see as the major time periods/events:

Time before the Nine
Rise of Reshar
Establishment of the Temple
The Era of Reshar
Reshar's retirement
The Destruction of the Temple

we'll talk about each one in detail later

#3 once we've established the above timeline and can agree on some of the details, we can fit the homebrews in.

I think though, the fact that the homebrews did not make it into the major 9 implies the following:

- Reshar did not master it, and therefore did not bring it into prominence.
- The discipline in question did not see prominence like that of the original 9. While ANOTHER master could bring it into prominence, I think it's safe to say that the original 9 were the mainstream schools, with the other 9 being more niche and less well known.
- Reshar, who was able to bring his 9 schools and temple into such recognition, was probably a PR and marketing genius of his time.
- Was Reshar the first master of the nine?

#4 more details for the homebrews

once we figure out HOW the homebrews fit into the timeline, we would have to establish some masters of the discipline and some more background details regarding.

So basically, we'll need
- the master who established the discipline
- how it came about
- where it was located
- when it was in it's formation stage
- when it was completed
- notable users of the discipline

note: we also need to make a distinction between the disciplines here and schools that are derivative of the disciplines. That is, there is a difference between someone who actually establishes a discipline of his own, and someone who simply combined two different disciplines and calls it a new school. Think of the latter as an MMA fighter who picks up some jiu-jitsu and some muay thai, and then creates a new school under a new name.

Mongoose87
2009-12-06, 10:54 PM
You thinking new base classes, too, trained in different ways from the Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage?

elliott20
2009-12-06, 10:58 PM
Post reserved for discipline list

here I'm going to list all the disciplines that I am aware of. It will be a growing list and if anyone sees one that I missed (which will be very likely) please let me know and I'll add it to the list

Disciplines

Gentle Breeze - Closet Skeleton
the Placid Lake Discipline (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/guardian_of_the_frozen_grotto_and_placid_lake_scho ol)
Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3410915&postcount=5%20Maneuvers%20of%20Madness) - Jack Mann
Ninefold Damnation - PairO' Dice
Infinite Torment: - PairO' Dice
Ocean Tempest: - PairO' Dice

Lesser Discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255) By I_got_this_name
Falling Wave
Glacial Chill
Leaping Gale
Rending Scream
Silver Pegasus
True Arrow
Viper Fang

Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505#post5471505) - Demented One
Coin's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75548) - Demented One
Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) - Demented One
Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150) - Demented One
Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5569037) - Demented One
Falling Anvil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122824) - DracoDei
Chthonic Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131567) - DragoonWraith
Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) - Fax
Kaleidoscopic Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86163) - Demeont One
Fool's Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67879) - Demented One
Way of the Gear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133462) - Imp_Fireball
Solaris Arcanum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7227911#post7227911) - Golden-Esque
Scarlet Rose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7232363#post7232363) - Nero24200
Black Lotus (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526550/Base_Class_Sublime_Assassin__Black_Lotus_Disciplin e_PEACH_please) - Zakaroth
Broken Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533) - JoshuaZ
Narrow Bridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) - JoshuaZ
[http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112720]Untamed Essencep[/url] - Vox Clamantis
Holy Word Discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71422) - Fax Celestis
Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205) - Fax Celestis
The Discipline of the Lost Lyrics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389) - Kellus
Frozen Zephyr/Acidic Fog/Shocking Sky disciplines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570) - Krimm Blackleaf (Desert Wind Variant)
Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173) - The demented one
Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614)- The demented one
Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816) - The demented one
Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276) - The demented one
Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991) - demented one
black heron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100874) - errantx
Quicksilver Aegis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86266) - Krimm
Witch Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102869) - pyrefiend


PrCs

Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6885801&postcount=23)
Incarnate Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134244) - vasharanpaladin
Heartshaper and the Bladed Thoughts Discipline (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/the_heart_shaper_a_sublime_soulknife) -
Guardian of the Frozen Grotto and the Placid Lake Discipline (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/guardian_of_the_frozen_grotto_and_placid_lake_scho ol) -
Moonflame Adept (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/moonflame_adept_spellfirewielding_master_of_the_su blime_way) -
Kazarzeth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5571887)- Errantx
Ecclesiastic Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5723512) - Errantx
The Master of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111332) - Errantx
True Master of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121583) - DracoDei
Bladesinger Redux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516) - Errantx
Shadow Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69605) - Duke Malagigi
Suel Arcanamach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126605) = errantx
Another Master of One - PairO'Dice
Blade Operant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5687663) - Demented One
Braveheart Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5581750) - Demented One
Dreaming Lotus Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4726582) - Demented One
Ebon Raven General (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5400789) - Demented One
Enlightened Budoka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83488) - Demented One
Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52597) - Demented One
Leviathan-Born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5742363) - Demented One
Madspawn Broodling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74277) - Demented One
Nightmare Reaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58986) - Demented One
Oracle Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30165) - Demented One
Savage Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3875727) - Demented One
Silent Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4583986) = Demented One
Spellfire Banisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6415945#post6415945) - Demented One
Sublime Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54338) - Demented One
Thousand-Arrow Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76147) - Demented One
Whirlwind Heir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70472) - Demented One

The following are by Krimm
Aberrant Armorlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83133)
Al-shra'a Al-mharb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74533)
Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659)
Blade Incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55977)
Blade Maiden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122409)
Blood Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90871)
Combat Artisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79949)
Concealed Celestial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79868)
Crusader of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69427)
Demonspawn Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80360)
Doom Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79032)
Draconic Partisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103754)
Eaglewing Striker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74810)
Ebon Phoenix Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99636)
Eldritch Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70397)
Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) (Redux)
Harmonic Lance Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111058)
Hollowed Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93200)
Holy Deathless One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62574)
Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100009)
Iron Slasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94271)
Ironsword Speaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70873)
Masked Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71073)
Occult Adversary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84798)
Prestige Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80274) (Redux)
Prodigal Overlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103789)
Sacred Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76892) (Redux)
Saurian Brute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74362)
Shrouded Ambusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90835)
Soul Eater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97062) (Redux)
Soulfire Invoker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99438)
Spirit Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87501)
Spirit Craftsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77619)
Spirit Lords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74984) (Champion, Skirmisher and Spellmaster)
Sword of Levakross (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64781)
Unmasked Fiend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76956)
Unseelie Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101648)
Unveiled Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87472)
Warforged Armorlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99062)
Warped Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76209)
Weretouched Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93179) (Redux)
Zealot of Salamander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67574)
Holy Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131958) - DragoonWraith


Base Class

Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120539)- T.G. Oskar
Martial Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6976025#post6976025) - Imp-Fireball
Soul Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4651796#post4651796) - Demented One
Warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83559) - Demented One
Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69870) - Demented One
Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799700&postcount=2)
Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799732&postcount=6)
Firedancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125434) - Tatsel Ganav
Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130232) - Golden-Esque
Martial Soul - PairO'Dice
Sohei Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7465208#post7465208) - Shyftir


variants
Alternate AFC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121939) b T.G. Oskar
monk of the sublime way - pax chi
Martial Adept Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133632) - dangerprawn
Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Epic progression (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516) - Krimm
ToB Core Class Update. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) - Fax_Celestis
Alternate Stance Progression Table (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124112)

Items
Warheart Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531): Sublime counterparts to magic weapons.

Artifacts
Basatan's Arm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110561) - Krimm

Monsters
Demented One
Aay-y'y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83843): Chaotic warriors of amazing power and skill who roam Limbo.
Grave Trooper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73001): Undead soldiers who know how to fight.
Jiang Shi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29735): Kung fu vampires, basically.
Martial Automaton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10460): Programmable martial constructs.
Krimm
Shayal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100981)
Varkigon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85327) (scroll down a bit)
Dorokusai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134228) - Saintheart
Cold Iron Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137185) -

Feats
The following are by Krimm
Epic Martial Adept Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516)
More Epic Martial Adept Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122190)
Martial Multiclass Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96510)
9 Epic Martial Discipline Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435)

elliott20
2009-12-06, 10:59 PM
You thinking new base classes, too, trained in different ways from the Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage?

That is also an option. While we're at it, we can also include core variants initiators as well. Basically, in my mind, I envision this book to have enough material that if a GM wants to, they can do an entire campaign based on the material in the book.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-06, 11:03 PM
That is also an option. While we're at it, we can also include core variants initiators as well. Basically, in my mind, I envision this book to have enough material that if a GM wants to, they can do an entire campaign based on the material in the book.
Heh, as it turns out, I'm working on a Sublime Bard at this very moment.

elliott20
2009-12-06, 11:11 PM
Heh, as it turns out, I'm working on a Sublime Bard at this very moment.

sweet, I really should make another post outlining things I want to see.

elliott20
2009-12-06, 11:25 PM
organization of the book (as I see it thus far, criticisms welcome)

1. The canonical ToB time line and material

establishes the source material and tries to give more theories as to what constitutes the canonical ToB time line as well as give more info about Reshar and the environment he lived in.

2. class variants

here we list the sublime way variants out there. I'll need help with the list since I can't seem to turn up a definitive list anywhere.

I think we might want to be more scrutinizing about what variants we use though, since I think I've seen at least 3 different sublime fighter variants and I recall not liking all of them. optimally, I think we want to use variants that are really just that, variants with minimal changes. the variants that makes a LOT of changes I would recommend they go under the next section.

3. more base classes

these are base classes designed entirely from the ground up to fit into the ToB model. A large number of the variants, in my opinion, really should fall under here simply because of how drastically different they are from their source materials.

4. the homebrew disciplines

Like I said earlier, these will be where we catalog the disciplines, give some info about them, and fit them into the canon. Here is where we establish our new "canon" for the ToB-verse. (maybe that's the name we should adopt?)

5. homebrew discipline maneuver list

just like in ToB, a section that outlines the disciplines maneuvers in short hand, with the next section giving more details on the maneuvers.

6. maneuver description

7. setting info

here we talk about the actual setting of the ToB-verse, giving more specific location settings, areas, and maybe even an adventure seed table or two.

this is also where we list the notable characters of the ToB-verse from the various disciplines. (further establishing relationships with the various ToB disciplines)

8. new monsters

I'm not sure if we'll get to this, but I'm sure that some of you have done ToB homebrew monsters. We can list them here. here we can also talk about how to adapt old MM monsters into ToB ready materials.

DracoDei
2009-12-06, 11:27 PM
Check the sticky thread at the top of the homebrew thread list page for a link to the attempt at an index then look for disciplines...

For one thing I think there are TWO different disciplines named "Falling Star" that have been created on these boards.


Also, if you read the fluff for Falling Anvil, it is possible that instead of being something you necessarily have to learn from a teacher, it is a mental illness that those who study the Sublime Way are especially prone to and get much more severe cases of (since a non-initiator can only learn 3 maneuvers and 1 Stance via feats). Thus it could have existed almost as long as the first other discipline ever to have a few hundred or thousand practioners and had no one single inventor/creator or even specific chain of inventors, each of whom advance the art further.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-06, 11:34 PM
If you want to add Solaris Arcanum, you'd be more then welcomed :).

I use a similar method in my campaigns to what you described; each Discipline has its own history and background, and one man tried to unite as many of them as he could, but ultimately failed because many disciplines cross racial tension lands and other such issues.

Eliot, if you look at Demented One's list of Homebrew, he's made a LOT of them.

elliott20
2009-12-06, 11:34 PM
Check the sticky thread at the top of the page for a link to the attempt at an index then look for disciplines...

For one thing I think there are TWO different disciplines named "Falling Star" that have been created on these boards.


Also, if you read the fluff for Falling Anvil, it is possible that instead of being something you necessarily have to learn from a teacher, it is a mental illness that those who study the Sublime Way are especially prone to and get much more severe cases of (since a non-initiator can only learn 3 maneuvers and 1 Stance via feats). Thus it could have existed almost as long as the first other discipline ever to have a few hundred or thousand practioners and had no one single inventor/creator or even specific chain of inventors, each of whom advance the art further.
yeah, I'm aware of that. That's why I'm saying that it might not have come into prominence or wide recognition as an actual, respected discipline the way the original 9 were. It is entirely possible for a lot of the homebrew disciplines to have co-existed along side the original 9 or even long before it, and just not recognized because no one ever bother pushing together into a single system.

thanks for reminding me about that thread. I'm combing it now for more disciplines to look for.

DracoDei
2009-12-06, 11:44 PM
I was referring to the fact that you didn't seem sure that you could work it in... also, I need to decide on which home-brew disciplines it is incompatible with, because I only list the ToB ones that it edges out when you take the first maneuver of it. Scarlet Bravura, for instance, may be


As for PrCs, I made the True Master of Nine, and someone made a Master of One. There was also a single discipline Base class (or maybe it got access to a second discipline around 10th level... yeah, I think it did). Note that I am pretty stuck on the legacy weapons, and a few of the listed maneuvers are unfinished... and I still need to add banana peel based maneuvers one of these days.

elliott20
2009-12-06, 11:54 PM
yeah, one of the things I think we're going to have problem with is what exactly should we include.

not all of the disciplines are finished and let's face it, not all of it really meshes well together. (A large number of them may very well be duplicates of one another)

I think one of the criterion we use for taking a piece of work is that we have to make sure that it has the following:

1. proper formatting: I know this is a silly thing to use as a criteria, but considering the amount of material we're talking about assimilating, it would take considerable effort to as is to make sure all the formatting syncs up. To have to do this for write ups without any formatting would make this a nightmare

2. is finished or will be finished. a lot of projects I see seem to get abandoned or at least not get the updated version posted. I don't mind if a product is not fine tuned, but it needs to be at least finished.

EdroGrimshell
2009-12-07, 12:13 AM
I have a few under my favorites
Army of One (The demented one)
Dancing Leaf (The demented one)
Oncoming Storm (The demented one)
Sleeping Godess (The demented one)
and The Broken Blade (JoshuaZ)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533

elliott20
2009-12-07, 12:18 AM
okay added.

it just occurred to me that I really should link these... oh well... later.

Fortuna
2009-12-07, 12:48 AM
Wow. This much material would basically allow someone to run a game with initiators without ever buying the tome of battle. Thank you all very much!

elliott20
2009-12-07, 01:03 AM
keep in mind, the intend is not to reprint the entirety of ToB in a single place, but rather add more/organize material to supplement it. So, in theory you could run a game without buying ToB, you would just won't be able to do anything with the original 9 disciplines in them. (kind of like, the shadows of the ToB-verse type of deal)

The core concept is that you could, with this book and the ToB book, run an entirely initiator based campaign.

ErrantX
2009-12-07, 01:10 AM
You missed another one of mine, a remake of the Suel Arcanamach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126605) which adds maneuvers as well as streamlines the various abilities of the class/makes it actually have a hope and a prayer of accomplishing what the fluff suggests it does.

Otherwise, I dig what you're doing here. I'll see if I can contribute more to this.

-X

The Demented One
2009-12-07, 01:13 AM
We're really starting to see a LOT of homebrew ToB disciplines on this board. With this many extra homebrews out there, it's almost like we're not talking about the "fabled 10th discipline" but rather the disciplines less well known.
Um. Starting? Krimm and I did most of this stuff years ago. :smallwink: But that said, most of the stuff I've done is already fluffed to fit in with something like this. Lemme give you links.

Disciplines
Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710146#post5710146): Take on legions, and win.
Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505#post5471505): Gun fu. Need I say more?
Coin's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75548): A supernatural style that draws on fate and luck.
Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614): Dodge everything.
Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218): Vile martial arts inspired by demon princes and archdevils.
Fool's Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67879): The art of whatever happens to be at hand.
Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150): Angelic martial arts.
Kaleidoscopic Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86163): Chaotic, reality-warping martial arts.
Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816): The noble arts of iajutsu and bladesmanship bastardized for street-fighting and assassination.
Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5569037): WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?
Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408244#post5408244): Kill people with your brain.
Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991): Martial arts for cavalry.

Base Classes
Soul Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4651796#post4651796): Incarnum-wielding martial artist that channel the souls of past masters.
Warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83559): Masters of tactics and strategy.
Warrior-Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69870): Sublime swashbucklers who use both martial prowess and witty banter.

Prestige Classes
Blade Operant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5687663): Secret agents with powerful martial techniques implanted in their subconscious minds.
Braveheart Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5581750): God damn halflings who're god damn good at killing people.
Dreaming Lotus Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4726582): Members of a cabal of spies and assassins that surely doesn't exist.
Ebon Raven General (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5400789): Commandos specializing in stealth and group tactics.
Enlightened Budoka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83488): Warrior-monks that turn their foes' strength against them.
Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52597): Self-trained martial adepts.
Leviathan-Born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5742363): Darfellan scions of the oceanic god of death, who fight without regard for their own lives.
Madspawn Broodling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74277): Willing hosts to aberrant symbiotes, masters of using living weaponry.
Nightmare Reaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58986): Soulknives who have honed their martial skills to perfection.
Oracle Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30165): Prescient martial adepts that rely on second sight to win their battles.
Savage Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3875727): Atavistic martial adepts that channel their bestial psyche to achieve feats of bloody brutality.
Silent Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4583986): Exercises in calm, calculating, restrained brutality.
Spellfire Banisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6415945#post6415945): Sublime mage-slayers.
Sublime Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54338): Prodigies who have re-invented martial disciplines.
Thousand-Arrow Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76147): Sublime marksman.
Whirlwind Heir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70472): Samurai masters of the quick-draw.

Items
Warheart Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531): Sublime counterparts to magic weapons.

Monsters
Aay-y'y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83843): Chaotic warriors of amazing power and skill who roam Limbo.
Grave Trooper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73001): Undead soldiers who know how to fight.
Jiang Shi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29735): Kung fu vampires, basically.
Martial Automaton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10460): Programmable martial constructs.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 01:18 AM
holy Reshar's deadly pinkie, demented one. I knew that you and krimm have been ridiculously productive little bees on this front but I did not realize the extent of which we're talking about here.

Gralamin
2009-12-07, 01:35 AM
holy Reshar's deadly pinkie, demented one. I knew that you and krimm have been ridiculously productive little bees on this front but I did not realize the extent of which we're talking about here.

You obviously don't know them very well :smallwink:.

I'd also throw in the lesser disciples by I_Got_This_Name, which can be found Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255).

Agrippa
2009-12-07, 01:40 AM
How about the shadow knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69605)? Part Solomon Kane part mystical ninja.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-07, 01:52 AM
Oh, in terms of classes, in addition to the bard-like I'm working on, I also made the Holy Knight (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Holy_Knight), a Invocation/Maneuver PrC. First draft was horrendously overpowered, since I was just writing down every idea that I had, but I haven't managed to get any critique on the revision.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 03:34 AM
yeah, I do vaguely recall seeing the lesser disciplines sometime back. Good to know that we can pull them back into the fold. Though, to be honest, I feel that some of the stuff there doesn't fit with some of the conventions mentioned here.

the lesser disciplines, for all intensive purposes, are in the same boat as most homebrews done by Demented One. As such, I feel that perhaps we should try to merge the conventions here.

the lesser disciplines as of right now, require a feat expenditure in order to add onto your list of your learn-able schools. Demented one handles it through a single training investment of 1000 xp or replacing an existing one.

Between the two, I feel that the demented one's implementation is better for the learning convention. (since it's not tied to a resource that is very precious)

The second issue that I'm beginning to see here is that a lot of the materials occupy very similar fluff. As such, they over lap quite a bit. I think we've already seen 2-3 different knight initiators that basically screams "assassin's creed".

We need to find a way to really differentiate between these different initiators or we're gonna have to (and I hate even saying this) just pick a single one and move on. There are several methods I can think of for this kind of reconciliation:

1. the fluff similar because they are fundamentally off shoots of each other. They are all just branch offs from the same source. That is, it's simply a matter of region, era, or some other philosophical difference that creates the difference.

2. pick a most suitable one that the board likes the best, and drop the other ones.

3. merge them together to make them a single material, taking on aspects of each. I don't really like this since it means create ANOTHER version of the material.

Gralamin
2009-12-07, 03:42 AM
yeah, I do vaguely recall seeing the lesser disciplines sometime back. Good to know that we can pull them back into the fold. Though, to be honest, I feel that some of the stuff there doesn't fit with some of the conventions mentioned here.

the lesser disciplines, for all intensive purposes, are in the same boat as most homebrews done by Demented One. As such, I feel that perhaps we should try to merge the conventions here.

the lesser disciplines as of right now, require a feat expenditure in order to add onto your list of your learn-able schools. Demented one handles it through a single training investment of 1000 xp or replacing an existing one.

Between the two, I feel that the demented one's implementation is better for the learning convention. (since it's not tied to a resource that is very precious)
That sounds reasonable, and simple to change.


The second issue that I'm beginning to see here is that a lot of the materials occupy very similar fluff. As such, they over lap quite a bit. I think we've already seen 2-3 different knight initiators that basically screams "assassin's creed".

We need to find a way to really differentiate between these different initiators or we're gonna have to (and I hate even saying this) just pick a single one and move on. There are several methods I can think of for this kind of reconciliation:

1. the fluff similar because they are fundamentally off shoots of each other. They are all just branch offs from the same source. That is, it's simply a matter of region, era, or some other philosophical difference that creates the difference.

2. pick a most suitable one that the board likes the best, and drop the other ones.

3. merge them together to make them a single material, taking on aspects of each. I don't really like this since it means create ANOTHER version of the material.

#1 Is the quickest, and perhaps the best. #2 cuts down document size, at the cost of voting time. #3 Is probably not a good idea.
I vote for #1, #2 if needed.

Eldan
2009-12-07, 03:54 AM
If you need a fluff-writer, I'd be willing to help.

Also, for a name, I think I saw "The Book of Forgotten Swords" somewhere years ago on this forum. Sounds awesome to me.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 04:13 AM
If you need a fluff-writer, I'd be willing to help.

I most certainly will.



Also, for a name, I think I saw "The Book of Forgotten Swords" somewhere years ago on this forum. Sounds awesome to me.
It's a good name, but my feeling right now is that we're not trying to make a book about the forgotten/lost arts, but simply use this to create a period where we have literally hundreds and thousands of schools out there, all with different interpretations and ideas about martial arts. That is, an age of martial scholars.

The main nine are meant to the mainstream school that everyone who does martial arts know about, and probably each one have major factions built around it.

But along the side, if you do a little digging, you start seeing all the other offshoots and branches that have their own thing going on. Basically, we're trying to make what is a DC 30 knowledge check into a DC 15 check.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 05:19 AM
This post I'm going to reserve to talk about the canonical time-line as shown in the ToB book.

There is no mention of actual times or years in the ToB, possibly so that the material can be quickly adapted to any game. So in keeping with that, I have no intention of adding actual time lines in here so much as relative time references to mark events.

What I feel would be immensely useful is the division of time frames. Right now we have a clear division in time periods:

before Reshar developed the temple
the era while Reshar was at the temple
post-Reshar era

For the purposes of brevity, I'll split events into two sections: before temple BT and after temple AT. (someone PLEASE help me come up with a better term. I feel dumber just typing that) pre-temple talks about the time when Reshar is still trying to establish himself as a master warrior.

somewhere in there we have to fit in these events
Reshar's early life
Reshar acquiring each of the 9 disciplines
Reshar creating the temple for the 9
The era of Reshar's glory
Reshar's retirement
Temple Destruction

Eldan
2009-12-07, 05:25 AM
At least the Demented One's disciplines already have fluff origins, often even explaining why Reshar didn't include them in his curriculum. So if we expand on that, we have schools Reshar never bothered to learn about, or, in the case of Fool's Grip or Oncoming Storm, schools which were developed later as bastardized forms.
There might also be forms which Reshar wasn't able to learn, such as those learned secretly by small organizations which he might not have heard about.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-07, 06:08 AM
And the divinely inspired disciplines like Golden Saint and Dread Crown.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-12-07, 06:43 AM
Oh my... Maybe I can compile all my ToB things together...

Disciplines
Quicksilver Aegis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86266)

PrC's
Aberrant Armorlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83133)
Al-shra'a Al-mharb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74533)
Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659)
Blade Incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55977)
Blade Maiden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122409)
Blood Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90871)
Combat Artisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79949)
Concealed Celestial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79868)
Crusader of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69427)
Demonspawn Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80360)
Doom Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79032)
Draconic Partisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103754)
Eaglewing Striker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74810)
Ebon Phoenix Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99636)
Eldritch Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70397)
Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) (Redux)
Harmonic Lance Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111058)
Hollowed Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93200)
Holy Deathless One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62574)
Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100009)
Iron Slasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94271)
Ironsword Speaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70873)
Masked Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71073)
Occult Adversary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84798)
Prestige Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80274) (Redux)
Prodigal Overlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103789)
Sacred Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76892) (Redux)
Saurian Brute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74362)
Shrouded Ambusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90835)
Soul Eater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97062) (Redux)
Soulfire Invoker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99438)
Spirit Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87501)
Spirit Craftsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77619)
Spirit Lords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74984) (Champion, Skirmisher and Spellmaster)
Sword of Levakross (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64781)
Unmasked Fiend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76956)
Unseelie Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101648)
Unveiled Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87472)
Warforged Armorlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99062)
Warped Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76209)
Weretouched Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93179) (Redux)
Zealot of Salamander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67574)

ToB-Related Monsters
Shayal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100981)
Varkigon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85327) (scroll down a bit)

Artifacts
Basatan's Arm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110561)

Epic Progressions
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516)

Feats
Epic Martial Adept Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516)
More Epic Martial Adept Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122190)
Martial Multiclass Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96510)
9 Epic Martial Discipline Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435)

Someone already posted my Desert Wind variants, so yeah. That's about all I have so far.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 10:26 AM
umm... oh wow... that's a lot. Nice.

pyrefiend
2009-12-07, 12:54 PM
I made a discipline a while ago...
here it is: Witch Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102869)

DracoDei
2009-12-07, 01:12 PM
#2 cuts down document size, at the cost of voting time.
Electrons are cheap, so why do we care?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-07, 01:43 PM
Unfortunately, I did most of my ToB homebrewing on the WotC boards before I found my way here, and, well...suffice to say that most of those are gone for good. I do have a few things here, though:

Disciplines
Ninefold Damnation: The discipline from Hell, literally, which focuses on mimicking the Lords of the Nine.
Infinite Torment: A discipline from the Abyss, focusing on random effects and imitation of demons.
Ocean Tempest: A water/storm discipline to complement the fiery Desert Wind and the earthy Stone Dragon (includes discipline feats and a legacy weapon!).

Classes
Martial Soul: A ToB/incarnum dual-progression class; don't know if it's suitable for this particular project, but I thought I'd throw it in.

I think I backed up my Master of One and Martial Swashbuckler on my laptop; if I find them, I'll post them and add links to them.

EDIT: Sadly, they weren't on my computer, but the Wayback Machine came to my rescue:
Martial Swashbuckler: The swashbuckler is a 3-level dip class no longer!
Master of One: For all the arrogant, obsessive martial adepts out there who think Masters of Nine have got it all wrong.

The Tygre
2009-12-07, 02:46 PM
Do we want to bring up that one discipline? Uh, y'know... that one with the tentacles and the Ecchinobi.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-07, 02:48 PM
Do we want to bring up that one discipline? Uh, y'know... that one with the tentacles and the Ecchinobi.

*waves hand*

That's not the kind of discipline we're looking for. Move along.

The Tygre
2009-12-07, 02:59 PM
*waves hand*

That's not the kind of discipline we're looking for. Move along.

...

You sure now? I'm just saying, let's not be too hasty in writing anything off.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-07, 03:26 PM
Add the Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3410915&postcount=5%20Maneuvers%20of%20Madness) discipline and Fax Celestis's ToB Core Class Update. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

Gralamin
2009-12-07, 03:28 PM
Another thing that should probably be done: Rework the stance progression of the classes. WOTC admitted they weren't really thinking when they made it, so the stance progression is kinda nonsense. I had tried reworking it once Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124112), which at least gives us a basis.

Siegel
2009-12-07, 04:34 PM
Someone here did a class that was like a martial Sorcerer. At each time they could invoke a maneuver from any school. They didn't know any one but just instinctively used some. Don't know how it was done exactly but the idea was awesome.

ErrantX
2009-12-07, 04:49 PM
Someone here did a class that was like a martial Sorcerer. At each time they could invoke a maneuver from any school. They didn't know any one but just instinctively used some. Don't know how it was done exactly but the idea was awesome.

I think that was Golden-esque with his Sublime Warmage. Or you're thinking of something different than me!

@OP: Also, the Suel Arcanamach isn't a Discipline, it's a prestige class!

-X

DragoonWraith
2009-12-07, 06:02 PM
Oh, just remembered: πd6 has several Sublime rebalances of a few classes:
Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799700&postcount=2)
Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799732&postcount=6)
Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6885801&postcount=23)

Also, there is Tatsel Ganav's Firedancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125434).

And, as mentioned, my Holy Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131958) PrC merges maneuvers with a bit of invoking.

Finally, you listed the Discipline of Lost Lyrics as by Fax, but that one's by Kellus.

elliott20
2009-12-07, 09:29 PM
thanks for the catches, guys. Apparently, I'm also a terrible editor too, so bear with me. :smallbiggrin:

Keep these coming!

I think we'll keep this up for maybe another day or two and we should have enough to start compiling and putting everything together.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 12:37 AM
just to keep the momentum going, I'm going to start putting together a document that has everything organized in it. thus far, I'm sticking to the book organization I put together in the earlier post plus I'm thinking about adding a section for homebrewing one's own ToB material and reworking older monsters with ToB maneuvers. But these new addition I think will require some of the homebrew vets to write, since my grasp of the material is not as strong as them. (Krimm and Demented One, I'm looking at you)

elliott20
2009-12-08, 01:55 AM
to make managing all the different disciplines easier, I think I'm going to try to categorize the disciplines into groups so that when we start tying in the relationships with the original 9, we have a smaller list to work off of.

We have several dimensions for a discipline's relationship with the original 9

Lineage
the lineage describes the discipline's origins in relation with the Nine in rough terms. This is how we are going to handle disciplines that might bear strong resemblances to the Nine in terms of mechanics and flavor. Clear duplicates will be made into direct lineage, or ancestral lineage. However, I'm tempted to leave out Ancestral Lineage all together since a lot of these disciplines look to be far more refined than the original Nine already and it doesn't make any sense in my mind that these would be the ancestors rather than the progeny of the Nine. when the entry here is direct lineage/ancestral, I'll try to put a name attached to it establish WHICH discipline in question are we talking about. Default will be "not related" unless noted otherwise.

Not related - discipline has nothing to do with the original nine at all
Related - discipline might share a root in some aspects. (it possible that they share a common ancestral lineage)
Direct Lineage - the discipline is clearly inspired by the Nine
Ancestral Lineage - the discipline inspired one of the Nine

Relationship
Relationship describes the discipline practitioners general attitude towards the Temple of the Nine Swords that Reshar established. (and any derivative organizations) While there is no strict rules that prevent someone from learning techniques of an opposing school, this can give complications to doing so. Default here should be indifferent.

Indifferent
Friendly
Hostile

Does anybody have any comments on this method of organizing the disciplines?

Golden-Esque
2009-12-08, 02:09 AM
Whoops, almost forgot. Solaris Arcanum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7227911#post7227911) was designed to be used in conjuction with a variant Warmage class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130232). Here ya go.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 02:16 AM
Oh, some more: Heartshaper and the Bladed Thoughts Discipline (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/the_heart_shaper_a_sublime_soulknife) (a Sublime Soulknife), Guardian of the Frozen Grotto and the Placid Lake Discipline (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/guardian_of_the_frozen_grotto_and_placid_lake_scho ol) (a Sublime Druid PrC), and Moonflame Adept (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/moonflame_adept_spellfirewielding_master_of_the_su blime_way) (a Sublime wielder of Spellfire). The last references some Dancing Fox and Crescent Moon disciplines, but I cannot find those.

vasharanpaladin
2009-12-08, 03:08 AM
I could make a class or two, and I got an Incarnum/Adept PrC from a friend I could add in. Would need time to compile, though. :smalltongue:

elliott20
2009-12-08, 03:26 AM
not to mention the compile time it takes from me to put it all together in one document.

Guys, just FYI, we're at the point where we have more than enough material to get the book started. So, while we could always use more base classes, PrCs and disciplines, we're at the stage now where I think we can start thinking about how to put it all together. This is why I'm starting to write about how I want to categorize and manage the relationships between the disciplines.

Fluff writers and authors of these awesome homebrews, this is the time for you to start thinking about how you want the disciplines to fit into the over all setting.

If you can think of any form of categorization that might be helpful later on, please feel free to let me know. I'm thinking these are the possible categorizations beyond just the basic 'lineage and relationship".

Geographical
Era
Lineage
Faction
Alignment
Divine
Arcane
Psionic

Keep the material coming, but let's also start to think about how we're going to handle the stuff we already have.

vasharanpaladin
2009-12-08, 03:48 AM
Got one up now. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134244) :smallcool:

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 04:27 AM
Here's a useful (I think) chart:
{table=head]Discipline | Source | Skill | Crusader | Swordsage | Warblade | Special
Acidic Fog | KB | Escape Artist | | Alt | |
Army of One | TD1 | Intimidate | Alt | | Alt |
Black Heron | EX | Intimidate | Alt | Alt | Alt | No training; requires demonic possession
Black Lotus | Zak | Sleight of Hand | | | | for Sublime Assassins only
Black Rain | TD1 | Spot | Alt | Alt | Alt | Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) feat
Bladed Thoughts | Yue | Autohypnosis | | | | for Heartshapers only
Broken Blade | JZ | Martial Lore | Def | Def | Def | * Also requires maneuvers from other disciplines as pre-requisites
Chthonic Serpent | DW | Use Rope | | Alt | Alt |
Coin's Edge | TD1 | Profession (Gambler) | | Alt | |
Dancing Leaf | TD1 | Escape Artist | | Alt | Alt | Also available to Firedancers
Desert Wind | ToB | Tumble | | Def | |
Devoted Spirit | ToB | Intimidate | Def | | |
Diamond Mind | ToB | Concentration | | Def | Def |
Dread Crown | TD1 | Intimidate | Alt | | Alt | Must be Evil
Falling Anvil | DD | Bluff | Def | Def | Def | No training; lose access to Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines permanently
Falling Star | Fax | Spot | Def | Def | | *
Falling Wave | Name | Swim | Alt | Alt | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of Desert Wind (which may be then gained through the feat)
Far Realm | JM/TLN | Knowledge (The Planes) | Alt | Alt | Alt | Requires Terrible Secrets feat
Fool's Grip | TD1 | Tumble | | | Alt |
Frozen Zephyr | KB | Balance | | Alt | |
Glacial Chill | Name | Survival | Alt | Alt | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of Iron Heart or Desert Wind (which may be then gained through the feat)
Golden Saint | TD1 | Diplomacy | Alt | Alt | | Must be Good
Holy Word | Fax | Truespeak | Alt | Alt | Alt | No training; Requires Truespeak Training feat
Iron Heart | ToB | Balance | | | Def |
Kaleidoscopic Dream | TD1 | Tumble | Alt | Alt | | Also available to Soul Disciples
Leaping Gale | Name | Jump | | Alt | | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of Stone Dragon (which may be then gained through the feat)
Lost Lyrics | Kel | Perform (Sing) or Perform (Oratory) | Alt | Alt | Alt | No training; Requires Swordsinger feat
Masked Moon | Name | Disguise | | Alt | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing certain schools: Desert Wind or Shadow Hand for Shapechaning Swordsages, or any two of Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, or Shadow Hand for non-shapechanging Swordsages
Narrow Bridge | JZ | Knowledge (Religion) | Def | Def | Def | *
Ocean Soul | Fax | Swim | | Def | | *
Oncoming Storm | TD1 | Sleight of Hand | | Alt | Alt | Also available to Firedancers
Placid Lake | Yue | Move Silently | | Def | | also for Guardians of the Frozen Grotto
Quicksilver Aegis | KB | Balance | Alt | Alt | | Also available to Soul Disciples
Rending Scream | Name | Intimidate | | Alt | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of White Raven (which may be then gained through the feat)
Scarlet Bravura | TD1 | Perform (Oratory) | Alt | | Alt |
Scarlet Rose | Nero | Perform (Dance) | | Def | Def | *
Setting Sun | ToB | Sense Motive | | Def | |
Shadow Hand | ToB | Hide | | Def | |
Shocking Sky | KB | Intimidate | | Alt | |
Silver Pegasus | Name | Ride | Alt | | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of White Raven (which may be then gained through the feat). Maneuvers can only be used while mounted.
Sleeping Goddess | TD1 | Autohypnosis | Alt | Alt | Alt | Non-Swordsages require a Power Point pool
Solaris Arcanum | GE | Spellcraft | | | | for Warmages only
Stone Dragon | ToB | Balance | Def | Def | Def |
Tiger Claw | ToB | Jump | | Def | Def |
True Arrow | Name | Spot | Alt | Alt | Alt | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of Stone Dragon (which may be then gained through the feat)
Twin Spirit | TD1 | Ride | Def | Def | | *
Viper Fang | Name | Heal | | Alt | | Requires Lesser Disciplines feat, or replacing knowledge of Desert Wind, Setting Sun, or Shadow Hand (which may be then gained through the feat)
Way of the Gear | Imp | - | | Def | Def | *
White Raven | ToB | Diplomacy | Def | | Def |
Witch Razor | Pyre | Spellcraft | | Def | | *[/table]
Def = Available to that class without any special requirements
Alt = Available to that class by either training, replacing other disciplines, or taking a feat or similar.

Non-ToB Defaults have been marked with a *. Alts without notes use The_Demented_One's training system.

The authors:
DD = DracoDei (1)
DW = DragoonWraith (1)
EX = ErrantX (1)
Fax = Fax Celestis (3)
GE = Golden-Esque (1)
Imp = Imp_Fireball (1)
JM/TLN = John "Jack Mann" Beattie and The Logic Ninja (1)
JZ = JoshuaZ (2)
KB = Krimm Blackleaf (4)
Kel = Kellus (1)
Name = I_got_this_name (8)
Nero = Nero24200 (1)
Pyre = Pyrefiend (1)
TD1 = The_Demented_One (12)
ToB = Tome of Battle (9)
Yue = Yue Ryong (2)
Zak = Zakaroth (1)
That's 18 authors; someone should try to make sure we contact each of them and get their OK to include and potentially change their work. That's only fair.

Also, something I consider useful to know: with all of these in play, Crusaders have 8 disciplines by default, and 16 others they can get through training or feats or whatever; Swordsages have 15 defaults and 23 alternates, and Warblades have 10 defaults and 19 alternates. Quite a bit more than the 3/6/5 from ToB, but they're proportionally appropriate, I think. Some of the defaults (those marked with *'s) are not from ToB but listed as just available to one of the classes; we may want to limit some of them. There are also three disciplines that are not available to any ToB class, having been made specifically for various homebrewed classes.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 04:43 AM
wow, beautiful work there.

I'll try and contact the authors in question to get an okay.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 05:22 AM
OK, here's my take on some rules that should (IMO) be added to the book:


Alternate Disciplines
Most martial adepts have a list of what are known as "alternate disciplines". The typical example of a given adept does not have access to any of these disciplines, but specific members of the class may have knowledge of the discipline in one of two ways.

The first is to have neglected training in one of that class's ordinary disciplines. Any martial adept may choose to start play having no access to one or more disciplines that the class normally has access to, having been replaced by the same number of disciplines from the alternative list.

Any character who takes an alternative discipline for a class that does not have the discipline's associated skill as a class skill, loses as a class skill the skill associated with the neglected discipline, and gains the alternate discipline's associated skill.

The character may also trade proficiencies in weapons associated with the neglected discipline in favor of those associated with the alternate discipline. They can only gain proficiency in an exotic weapon associated with the alternate discipline if they lose proficiency in an exotic weapon associated with the neglected discipline, only gain proficiency in a martial weapon associated with the alternate discipline by losing proficiency in an exotic or martial weapon associated with the neglected discipline, etc., and in all cases can only gain as many proficiencies as they lose. They cannot lose proficiency in any weapon that is associated with both disciplines. They may trade in as many or as few weapon proficiencies as they like.

The other way to gain access to an alternate discipline is to train with a master of the discipline. A master is defined as one who can initiate 5th level maneuvers from that discipline. Training requires one month and the expenditure of 1,000 XP. When training is complete, the martial adept may add the discipline to the list of disciplines from which maneuvers may be learned with levels in any class that has the discipline as an alternate discipline, and may further replace any number of maneuvers already known from any class that has the discipline as an alternate discipline with maneuvers from the new discipline. Unlike the normal method of replacing maneuvers, however, any maneuvers lost must be replaced with maneuvers of a level no higher than the lost maneuver.

The martial adept also adds the skill associated with the discipline to the class list of any classes that have the discipline as an alternate discipline. The adept does not, however, gain proficiency in any additional weapons.
This should make it easier to write classes, since you can just say "these are the alternate disciplines", rather than explaining the rules behind them every time.

This assumes we're using The_Demented_One's system; I happen to like it best, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, heh.


Oh, and I forgot to mention before: your link to Untamed Essence is wrong; it links to Krimm's alternate Desert Wind disciplines. That, and Way of the Gear does not indicate what its associated skill is.

And I updated the table with the Far Realm discipline (linked to by SurlySeraph earlier, I think you missed it) and the Bladed Thoughts and Placid Lake disciplines (linked to by me earlier). That brings our author count up to 18. It also means we are currently at a cool 50 disciplines.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 05:46 AM
ahh good catch. I've been kind of neglecting to put time into proofreading my stuff simply because I'm just trying to get as much info as I can together and try to organize it. I'll make the changes the later tonight when I get home.

also, that's a good point. I'll add that to one of the beginning sections of the book.

I've also begun writing a "how to use this book" section. hopefully, this will give any newcomers to the book a good idea of how to assimilate the material into their game.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 06:08 AM
Oh hey, look what I found (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium). Just a simple list, rather than any attempt to integrate all of them, but wow, is there a lot of material out there.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-12-08, 08:36 AM
This is a project of such pure win that I cannot wait for its completion.

I may not have any ToB homebrew of my own, but I'm perfectly willing to help compile and/or write fluff. I have no life to distract me, after all.

:smallbiggrin:

DracoDei
2009-12-08, 08:53 AM
Technically, as currently written, only sword-sages get Falling Anvil maneuvers the usual way. Everyone else just gets their maneuvers from incompatible schools transformed as soon as they use Martial Study to take a Falling Anvil maneuver. That mechanic may need alteration, but you tell me. Also, people need to nag me to figure out a BUNCH more incompatable disciplines from the chart, because as it stands there is very little disadvantage to taking Falling Anvil with the expanded list compared to what there was with the original... I also am very willing to hear suggestions on the matter, or, if I get TOO overwhelmed by other things so I fall behind, I would be willing for someone else to figure out that part.

I also will point out that a lot of these need the associated 2 feats (one tactical, one pre-requisite to the tactical) and perminant maneuver granting items created (counterparts to the White Raven Crowns, Desert Wind Cape etc). The maneuver granting items basically just need fluff and which slot they take up. The feats are hard enough they might not get written for all the disciplines, but it would be nice to have them for as many as possible. Legacy weapons would be a nice bonus if we can come up with a few, but those are a major undertaking I think (as shown by the fact that none have been created to date that I know of). Then again it is possible that the type of homebrewer who has a talent for discipline creation doesn't usually happen to be the type who has the skills for legacy weapon creation.... now that I think of it, I don't know that I have EVER seen a legacy weapon on these entire boards.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 09:22 AM
Oh hey, look what I found (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium). Just a simple list, rather than any attempt to integrate all of them, but wow, is there a lot of material out there.

...most of which is archived at this point, unfortunately. For all of my stuff in that list, and some by others, I had to hit the Wayback Machine because the WotC archives are gone. It would be great if someone could go through and see what threads still exist, but don't expect to get more than a handful of disciplines or PrCs.


I also will point out that a lot of these need the associated 2 feats (one tactical, one pre-requisite to the tactical) and perminant maneuver granting items created (counterparts to the White Raven Crowns, Desert Wind Cape etc). The maneuver granting items basically just need fluff and which slot they take up. The feats are hard enough they might not get written for all the disciplines, but it would be nice to have them for as many as possible. Legacy weapons would be a nice bonus if we can come up with a few, but those are a major undertaking I think (as shown by the fact that none have been created to date that I know of). Then again it is possible that the type of homebrewer who has a talent for discipline creation doesn't usually happen to be the type who has the skills for legacy weapon creation.... now that I think of it, I don't know that I have EVER seen a legacy weapon on these entire boards.

You haven't been looking hard enough. :smallwink: My Ocean Tempest has the feats and the legacy weapon, if you want to take a look, though I admite I overlooked the maneuver-granting item.

Nero24200
2009-12-08, 09:28 AM
Adding manuever granting items is easy, you pretty much just need to specify a slot. The feats are slightly harder, since it requires new effects (and in the case of the Tactical feats, multiple new effects).

Looking forward to seeing how this project turns out, so once I try my hand at the feats I'll update the post with my discipline in it.

I'm also considering something similar to the...well...I can't remember it's name, but it was like a chain devil with automatic access to a chain/grapple focused discipline. Something like that might be nice for other disciplines as well (and could add possible fluff reasons for them not being taught at the first temple of nine swords, since they might have been inspired by the monsters first or discouraged).

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 09:56 AM
Do you mean the Dorokusai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134228) that Saintheart just posted? That one is pretty sweet, I'm very happy with what he did with my discipline.

The Demented One
2009-12-08, 09:57 AM
You haven't been looking hard enough. :smallwink: My Ocean Tempest has the feats and the legacy weapon, if you want to take a look, though I admite I overlooked the maneuver-granting item.
*cough*It'salsoawesome*cough*

Nero24200
2009-12-08, 10:03 AM
Do you mean the Dorokusai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134228) that Saintheart just posted? That one is pretty sweet, I'm very happy with what he did with my discipline.

That's exactly what I meant. I've always thought about the idea of monsters using some dicisplines naturally, like a vampire using some of the HP restoring manuevers in the Devoted Spirit school, refluffing them as the vampire draining blood and using it's energy to heal himself. Creating (or recreating) monsters that use diciplines or gain automatic access to some manuevers could help flesh out this type of setting a little more.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 10:52 AM
that's primarily one of the ideas I have about this book. In addition to say, just having a couple extra creatures, if you guys feel up to it, we can also write down guides on how to convert standard MM creatures into martial discipline creatures and attach a couple examples.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 11:56 AM
*cough*It'salsoawesome*cough*

Thanks. You're the first person to even acknowledge its existence, though.... :smallfrown:

deuxhero
2009-12-08, 12:21 PM
Wow. This much material would basically allow someone to run a game with initiators without ever buying the tome of battle. Thank you all very much!

Well there is still how maneuvers and such "work". A bit is covered in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=1) expert, but is leaves a bit out.

Dante & Vergil
2009-12-08, 03:01 PM
Do we want to bring up that one discipline? Uh, y'know... that one with the tentacles and the Ecchinobi.

I know it's not going to go up here, but do you have a copy of the class? I ask because the original creator over at Gleemax has been trying to find it again because he didn't save it on his computer.
If anyone has this, send me a copy so I can get it to him.

Also, I took the liberty to copy down a bunch of the old disciplines from the Martial_Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium). If it's archived, I can see if I was able to get it from gleemax before the big switch.

Zovc
2009-12-08, 03:25 PM
There's an overwhelming of ToB homebrew on these forums, and I'll start looking through things, but here are some ideas that I think should be included.

A revised, sublime Monk. (Yes, I know that there is an Unarmed Swordsage, but I've never read it, so I don't know if it gets more "Monky" or not.)
A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.
Possibly a sublime class that has more Wisdom synergy than the Swordsage.
A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.
A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.
One sublime class for each added discipline, designed to be the epitome of one who practices the respective discipline.
Feats to go with each added discipline.
Miscelaneous feats that increase random synergies with.
Possibly feats for non-initiators.
Perhaps some a feat that makes multiclassing work better between two martial classes.
Perhaps "dual-progression" feats that resemble Complete Scoundrel's feats.
A legacy weapon to go with each added discipline.
Perhaps some new equipment.
Maybe we could add a domain and/or some spells to the game while we're at it.
What about a sublime NPC class?

Shyftir
2009-12-08, 03:34 PM
I'm very interested in this discussion. I'd like to see the Sohei of OA turned into a martial character idea along with a pole-armist focused discipline, in fact sign me up as "the guy working on Martial Sohei."

Zovc
2009-12-08, 03:40 PM
I'm very interested in this discussion. I'd like to see the Sohei of OA turned into a martial character idea along with a pole-armist focused discipline, in fact sign me up as "the guy working on Martial Sohei."

A good place to start with making a polearm specialist would be letting them use a polearm with reach to threaten adjacent spells as well. This could work, at first, as a move action to switch your grip, and later become a free action.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-08, 03:48 PM
There's an overwhelming of ToB homebrew on these forums, and I'll start looking through things, but here are some ideas that I think should be included.

A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.
A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.
A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.
I have interest in doing the first and third, and am currently working on the second, for the record.

Not calling dibs or anything, just kind of stating interest.

The Demented One
2009-12-08, 03:51 PM
A revised, sublime Monk. (Yes, I know that there is an Unarmed Swordsage, but I've never read it, so I don't know if it gets more "Monky" or not.)
That's what the Swordsage is.


A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.
See the Warrior-Poet that I posted above.


Possibly a sublime class that has more Wisdom synergy than the Swordsage.
Um...what's wrong with the Swordsage as is?


A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.
That's not a class, that's a Swordsage who took Shadow Hand.


A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.
I would do these as disciplines, but the concept is sound.


One sublime class for each added discipline, designed to be the epitome of one who practices the respective discipline.
Are you talking prestige classes or base classes? The former is almost obligatory, the latter would be ridiculous.


What about a sublime NPC class?
Nigh-preposterous. What's wrong with just having a Warrior take Martial Study?

The Demented One
2009-12-08, 03:55 PM
Oh, and a thought–would anyone be interested in seeing some Epic Martial Styles? I'd come up with an idea for doing them a while ago, but never actually implemented it.

Eldan
2009-12-08, 03:55 PM
Well, many different weapon styles are well covered by disciplines already, if we look at the ton of homebrew we have here. There's one for two-weapon fighting, at least. Sword-and-board probably needs a little more love, though.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 04:06 PM
Oh, and a thought–would anyone be interested in seeing some Epic Martial Styles? I'd come up with an idea for doing them a while ago, but never actually implemented it.

Sure, I'd go for that. Heck, if it's up to your usual standards, even people who wouldn't want to see it would probably be won over in the end.


Sword-and-board probably needs a little more love, though.

Very much so. I think I'll do a S&B discipline the next time I get around to doing one--again, not calling dibs, so feel free to do one.

Zovc
2009-12-08, 04:18 PM
Perhaps I should look through the ToB more wholesomely.


See the Warrior-Poet that I posted above.

Will do.


I would do these as disciplines, but the concept is sound.

I suppose they could work as disciplines. Why not add 'polearm-user' to the list while we're at it, since Shyftir mentioned it.


Are you talking prestige classes or base classes? The former is almost obligatory, the latter would be ridiculous.

I meant to put prestige in there somewhere.


Nigh-preposterous. What's wrong with just having a Warrior take Martial Study?

Something I hadn't considered.

Eldan
2009-12-08, 04:23 PM
Sword and Board Discipline... how do you do that? I can see shield slams, and a few counters you can do while holding a shield, but what else? Deflecting stuff (spells, maybe) with a shield?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 04:33 PM
Sword and Board Discipline... how do you do that? I can see shield slams, and a few counters you can do while holding a shield, but what else? Deflecting stuff (spells, maybe) with a shield?

I'm seeing it as one quarter combo attacks (bash with shield and follow up with weapon, trap enemy's weapon between shield and weapon, etc.), one quarter making a shield a more useful defense (miss chances and/or deflecting ranged attacks, using it for cover, etc.), one quarter using the shield for offense and/or weapon for defense (stun or daze with shield slams, better "full defense" if you block with both shield and weapon, etc.), and one quarter bringing one-handed damage up to the level of two-handed damage to give S&B a comparable damage output to Power Attacking zweihanders.

How much of that can be accomplished, and how much can fit in one discipline, is up in the air, but that's what I'd aim for, anyway.

Eldan
2009-12-08, 04:37 PM
Well, one handed damage is already covered with other disciplines, so that wouldn't have to be part of it, I think. After all, you can still take Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw strikes with an S&B discipline.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 04:44 PM
Well, one handed damage is already covered with other disciplines, so that wouldn't have to be part of it, I think. After all, you can still take Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw strikes with an S&B discipline.

True, but I'm thinking more along the lines of maneuvers that specifically are better with one-handed the same way some Tiger Claw strikes and boosts are better with TWF. Most other maneuvers can be used one- or two-handed, so a two-hander is still coming out on top. Granted, the proportions noted above are less even proportions of each kind of maneuver in the discipline and more the four conceptual parts of it, so there would probably be 3-4 einhander damage boosters at most, just as long as there's something in there along those lines.

Zovc
2009-12-08, 04:48 PM
I feel like the S&B discipline should take a one-on-one control role and try to provide the ability to not be flanked (at first not by two, but by three, then simply not at all?). I imagine a polearm should provide 'area' control more so than a sword and shield would.

DracoDei
2009-12-08, 05:03 PM
Very much so. I think I'll do a S&B discipline the next time I get around to doing one--again, not calling dibs, so feel free to do one.
Devoted Spirit has a few shield based maneuvers... enough so that the Paladin/Crusader in the game I PLAY in (not the one I GM) uses a S&B.

I realize that may not be enough, but I thought it worth reminding people of.

deuxhero
2009-12-08, 05:40 PM
Note that you can use a shield bash for two weapon fighting.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-08, 05:54 PM
I feel like the S&B discipline should take a one-on-one control role and try to provide the ability to not be flanked (at first not by two, but by three, then simply not at all?). I imagine a polearm should provide 'area' control more so than a sword and shield would.

Yeah, S&B definitely has a more "one against the horde" feel than a polearm style would. And yes, you can TWF with a shield and Devoted Spirit has some shield maneuvers, but a devoted discipline would still be nice.

Anyway, we're derailing the thread a bit; I'll try to get up at least a draft of a S&B discipline by this weekend, and we can debate its merits in that thread.

Shyftir
2009-12-08, 08:11 PM
A good place to start with making a pole-arm specialist would be letting them use a polearm with reach to threaten adjacent spells as well. This could work, at first, as a move action to switch your grip, and later become a free action.

Actually I covered that with the first stance in the pole-arm focused discipline I'm creating to go with the class.

I'll post the blurb on the discipline and the entry for the stance in the spoiler.


Death Adder
Death Adder maneuvers are swift and deadly much like the lunging strike of the snakes for which the style is named. The naginata (glaive), guisarme, halberd, ransuer, spear and long-spear are the preferred weapons of the Death Adder discipline. The long reach and piercing capabilities of these weapons make them ideal for the in and out strikes favored by Death Adder practitioners. Balance is the key skill for Death Adder allowing the initiator to stay poised while shifting his weight in swift, lunging strikes. Death Adder maneuvers are only usable by Sohei, unless you take the Martial Study feat.

Coiled Bite
Death Adder (Stance)
Level: Sohei 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Duration: Stance

With a simple change of posture and shifting of grip you alter your weapons range entirely.

While in this stance you can use a reach weapon to attack enemies in squares adjacent to you, but you sacrifice 5 ft of reach to do so.


No one is using the name "Viper Fang" for a discipline yet are they?

Edit: I guess someone is, coming up with new name...

Got the new name, Death Adder.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 09:13 PM
Rapid Coil? nah, that just sounds silly.

It seems that the wizard compendium board make up is quite different from what we have here. I'll have to see if I can incorporate all of it.

Saintheart
2009-12-08, 09:43 PM
That's exactly what I meant. I've always thought about the idea of monsters using some dicisplines naturally, like a vampire using some of the HP restoring manuevers in the Devoted Spirit school, refluffing them as the vampire draining blood and using it's energy to heal himself. Creating (or recreating) monsters that use diciplines or gain automatic access to some manuevers could help flesh out this type of setting a little more.

Just a minor note here that the Valkyrie, in the back of the ToB book, is an excellent model to build off when you're creating monsters of this kind. It gets automatic access to maneuvers without having class levels in Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader per se; I used its build as guidance for creating the Dorokusai. It's also an easier build to get to grips with than the variant Rakshasha they also cite, and more powerful than the Reth Dekala which seems to be a CR 4 monster.


that's primarily one of the ideas I have about this book. In addition to say, just having a couple extra creatures, if you guys feel up to it, we can also write down guides on how to convert standard MM creatures into martial discipline creatures and attach a couple examples.

I'm no expert, but the very quick rule I assumed was this, going off the Valkyrie build: a creature gets an Initiator Level equal to its CR. It gets a number of automatic maneuvers and stances at least equal to its Initiator Level, though it seems to me lower CR-rated monsters get a couple more. The Valkyrie gets 10 automatic maneuvers, has an IL of 10, and is CR 10. The Dorokusai is (roughly) a CR 12 build, therefore gets IL 12, and has 12 maneuvers.

elliott20
2009-12-08, 10:21 PM
list updated, still need to grab the wizard community stuff

Shyftir
2009-12-09, 12:18 AM
Just dropping a Link to Sohei Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7465208#post7465208).
Your criticism/suggestions welcome.

elliott20
2009-12-09, 12:23 AM
nice. Added to the list.

I leave the actual class criticking to the pros.

TwistofCain
2009-12-09, 01:15 AM
Oh, and a thought–would anyone be interested in seeing some Epic Martial Styles? I'd come up with an idea for doing them a while ago, but never actually implemented it.


I would love to see some epic martial styles. Heck, I just wanna see more styles by you.

elliott20
2009-12-09, 01:24 AM
at the moment, I think I'm going to leave the epic level stuff out of the project.

for one, I just don't see too many campaigns going into epic without it falling apart very easily, and considering the existing material out there often doesn't support epic level play very well either, I don't feel that effort put towards this is going to see a huge payoff.

Of course, feel free to write up stuff and what not. I'm just saying I'm thinking that for now I'm going to leave it out of the book.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-09, 03:31 AM
Hmm, I don't see why it'd be a problem. It's not like pixels are expensive...

Actually, that brings up another issue - what's the format of this? I was thinking a Wiki would be best, but it sounds like you're thinking of a .pdf - both have their advantages, but it makes a big difference for things (like how trivial it is just to include everything).

jokey665
2009-12-09, 04:34 AM
First off: I think epic stuff is actually a great idea. There's not enough content for epic play out there.

Second off: I think a .pdf with nice presentation would be awesome, I'd love to have it as close to being an official book as possible.

elliott20
2009-12-09, 05:10 AM
at the moment, I'm just throwing everything I have into a word doc for now, just because it's easier for me to manipulate. But yeah, I was thinking more of an actual PDF of some sort.

Wiki is not a bad idea either. I think Surgo's D&D wiki can fill the same role. But with that I'm not nearly as good with manipulating the content organization and all that.

The Demented One
2009-12-09, 09:45 AM
First off: I think epic stuff is actually a great idea. There's not enough content for epic play out there.

Second off: I think a .pdf with nice presentation would be awesome, I'd love to have it as close to being an official book as possible.
Well, since I guess a couple people want to see it, I'll whip up some rules for epic disciplines, and Invincible Sword Princess style.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-12-09, 10:07 AM
Well, since I guess a couple people want to see it, I'll whip up some rules for epic disciplines, and Invincible Sword Princess style.

I have been waiting for this for ages.

The Demented One
2009-12-09, 10:23 AM
Here's the rules framework. Once I figure out some of the math, I'll get ISP up.

Epic Martial Disciplines

Epic martial disciplines are the fighting styles of the most powerful warriors and swordsmen in all creation. Powerful secret techniques wielded by gods, archfiends, and epic heroes, they represent the absolute pinnacle of the Sublime Way.

Learning Epic Martial Disciplines
Every epic discipline has an epic feat associated with it, called an initiation feat. Once an epic character has taken the initiation feat of a discipline, he gains the ability to learn the maneuvers of that epic discipline. Unlike normal maneuvers, epic maneuvers must be learned individually–each one has a unique XP cost and training time to learn. Learning even a single epic maneuver is an arduous quest for the mightiest of heroes, as they must seek out a master of the discipline to learn it from. Such beings include deities, demon princes, and things far more strange. Without such a mentor, the training time required to learn an epic maneuver is doubled–and even then, the pinnacle maneuver of an epic discipline can never be learned without a mentor. As with normal martial maneuvers, a martial adept must meet certain prerequisite number of maneuvers known from the same discipline to learn epic maneuvers. Each discipline has a single “pinnacle” maneuver, one that requires all other maneuvers of the discipline to be learned before it can be mastered.

Using Epic Maneuvers
Epic maneuvers are readied and initiated differently than normal maneuvers. Whenever a martial adept readies his maneuvers, he may choose a single epic martial discipline to ready for that day. Doing so readies all epic maneuvers of that discipline that he has learned. They do not count towards his normal maneuvers readied. Each readied epic maneuver can be initiated once per encounter–they cannot be recovered by any means. The martial adept may enter epic stances of his readied discipline as if they were normal martial stances, save that no ability or effect can ever allow him to gain the benefits of any other or second stance at the same time as he gains the benefits of an epic stance. Epic maneuvers do not have a level, but are treated as being of 10th level for all purposes. The saving throw against an epic maneuver has a DC of 20 + the listed ability modifier, although many epic maneuvers list ways in which their DC can be increased. All epic maneuvers are extraordinary abilities, unless otherwise listed.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 10:24 AM
I think a .PDF is more professional than a wiki. Then again, a wiki seems easier to host.

The Demented One
2009-12-09, 10:30 AM
I think a .PDF is more professional than a wiki. Then again, a wiki seems easier to host.
.pdf's aren't that hard. We find a download place, stick it there, give folk a link. Yahtzee.

Eldan
2009-12-09, 10:41 AM
So, if I understand you correctly, instead of making epic maneuvers of existing styles, like other people have suggested, you say we should make new, epic styles, which would work similarly to epic spells?

The Demented One
2009-12-09, 10:43 AM
So, if I understand you correctly, instead of making epic maneuvers of existing styles, like other people have suggested, you say we should make new, epic styles, which would work similarly to epic spells?
Yep. I'm treating existing martial disciplines as complete styles–no new maneuvers, at any level. Instead, you get the unique fighting arts of supreme warriors.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 10:48 AM
.pdf's aren't that hard. We find a download place, stick it there, give folk a link. Yahtzee.

Not quite as easy as "finding a download place," a lot of places have (understandable, but) inconvenient limits on things such as registrations, bandwidth limits, file size limits, et cetera. Also, I imagine there are places that claim some sort of rights to whatever you host on their site.

I've been considering messing with making .PDF files, so I'll start looking at authoring software and playing around with whatever I can get my hands on. I'll see how close to "WotC-style" formatting I can get (Columns, 'sidebars', tables, pictures).

The-Mage-King
2009-12-09, 10:49 AM
...Dear malevolent dieties, this is... Awesome... Maybe I'll get to work on a Sublime monster or two...

Or maybe a Sublime PrC... Psionic class/Martial Adept never got any love...

Eldan
2009-12-09, 10:52 AM
Not quite as easy as "finding a download place," a lot of places have (understandable, but) inconvenient limits on things such as registrations, bandwidth limits, file size limits, et cetera. Also, I imagine there are places that claim some sort of rights to whatever you host on their site.

I've been considering messing with making .PDF files, so I'll start looking at authoring software and playing around with whatever I can get my hands on. I'll see how close to "WotC-style" formatting I can get (Columns, 'sidebars', tables, pictures).

Googledocs should work, actually.
We would have to watch out with the pictures used in many of these PrCs and styles, though; most of them are probably not open source, and in the case of a "publication", there could theoretically be problems.


Edit: for Psi/ToB interaction, have a look at the Sleeping Goddess Discipline: it's for manifesters.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 10:55 AM
Googledocs should work, actually.
We would have to watch out with the pictures used in many of these PrCs and styles, though; most of them are probably not open source, and in the case of a "publication", there could theoretically be problems.

Google docs could work. I, personally, don't really care for them... I only use them for personal, portable endeavors.

I was actually hoping we could get our own artwork. :3

jokey665
2009-12-09, 12:25 PM
Upload it to sharebee and call it a day. :smallsmile:

Nero24200
2009-12-09, 02:49 PM
Just an FYI, I know how to use, and have access to, autheroing software, so if you wanted I could make the info into a PDF. I could then just upload it to my Deviantart account (which, to my knowledge, can let you upload and let others download the PDF).

The Tygre
2009-12-09, 03:10 PM
Well, since I guess a couple people want to see it, I'll whip up some rules for epic disciplines, and Invincible Sword Princess style.

Please tell me there's going to be Exalted references in here.

The Demented One
2009-12-09, 05:26 PM
Okay, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134459). Balance may be a bit wonky, but it's a gem compared to epic casting.

Eldan
2009-12-09, 06:32 PM
Okay, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134459). Balance may be a bit wonky, but it's a gem compared to epic casting.

Well, what isn't :smalltongue:

I'll go have a look at it.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-09, 07:22 PM
Though it's ultimately Fax's decision if it's used, i profer a creature for inclusion: Bow-back Monkupine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134487) as the covered up origin of the Falling Star Discipline.

elliott20
2009-12-09, 08:03 PM
nice. I like how embarrassing the actual creature is of an inspiration.

So how should we do the documentation for this? I mean, I wanted to just do a word doc converted to PDF, and have already started organizing the basic framework in the word doc, but it's very crude at this moment and so if people can figure out a better software, that's fine too.

Or should we just try to get it all onto a single doc, and then I'll pass it off to someone who knows how to do PDFs?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-09, 11:42 PM
nice. I like how embarrassing the actual creature is of an inspiration.

So how should we do the documentation for this? I mean, I wanted to just do a word doc converted to PDF, and have already started organizing the basic framework in the word doc, but it's very crude at this moment and so if people can figure out a better software, that's fine too.

Or should we just try to get it all onto a single doc, and then I'll pass it off to someone who knows how to do PDFs?

If you can put it into a document, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can get it in PDF form, decorate it like the books, etc. Concentrate on getting everything together first, and then go from there.

elliott20
2009-12-10, 12:04 AM
alright then, sounds like a plan to me. Now it's just up to me to get it all in the book and organized.

Eldan
2009-12-10, 03:20 AM
Though it's ultimately Fax's decision if it's used, i profer a creature for inclusion: Bow-back Monkupine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134487) as the covered up origin of the Falling Star Discipline.

Actually, that gives me an idea for a new mechanic for learning maneuvers:

Find a creature epitomizing the style you want to learn and defeat it in single combat, unarmed. If you survive, you can learn the new manuever.


Thoughts?

Shyftir
2009-12-10, 03:28 AM
Mystic Cobra Style! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7472221&posted=1#post7472221)

The first couple levels of my Discipline for pole-armists are up.

elliott20
2009-12-10, 03:42 AM
heh, you said "pole-arm love". that's sounds dirty.

but seriously, looks promising.

Eldan
2009-12-10, 03:49 AM
Well, don't we all love polearms with their massive, hard shafts, and their long reach, and the way you can grab them with both hands...


Okay, I'll stop now :smallbiggrin:

Nero24200
2009-12-10, 11:45 AM
Just dropping a link to Steel Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7473262#post7473262). It's not finished yet though, awaiting feedback and I also need to design feats and such.

Tangpau
2009-12-11, 06:06 PM
Just started reading this thread and just finished reading ToB yesterday. But I have been working on a discipline for desert wanders for a while now and will begin working on new Base Class based on this discipline too.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-11, 08:20 PM
For those who haven't seen it, here's my Dancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134667) that I was talking about, the ToB version of a Bard (though TD1's Warrior-Poet probably fills the role even better, now that I've seen it). *shrug*

elliott20
2009-12-11, 08:42 PM
we can still include it, and see what happens in the alpha and beta.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-11, 09:37 PM
In my opinion dancer is better.

I_Got_This_Name
2009-12-12, 01:51 AM
I was PMed a link asking for permission on the Lesser Disciplines. Go ahead with them. If you're using a standardized method to acquire alternates, standardize away.

If I wasn't doing something else, I'd strongly consider rewriting many of the maneuvers in Glacial Chill, since it doesn't actually do what I want it to do. It had two major design goals: 1) Match every one of the five main energy types to a discipline, Glacial Chill being the Cold discipline, and 2) Be a discipline that grinds your enemies away; fight like a glacier itself. I don't think GC hit its Design Goal 2 very well, and goal 1 may be flawed in and of itself, given that Desert Wind is such a weak discipline. I also filled out the ranks with maneuvers that didn't belong.

In fact, let me just post the list with design goals and themes, as best as I can reconstruct them (I didn't keep much in the way of notes):
Falling Wave: Four elements all get a discipline (Water). Erode, recover, yield.
Glacial Chill: Energy types all get a discipline (Cold). Endure and grind.
Leaping Gale: Elements (air), Energy (Electricity). Move around the battlefield and defend yourself. If I were adding new maneuvers, I'd add things that let you engage multiple opponents.
Masked Moon: Shapechanging. More shapechanging. A little bit more shapechanging. Top it off with some shapechanging. This is for Werewolves, Shifters, Changelings, and so on.
Rending Scream: Energy Type (Sonic). It ended up with fear and anti-group stuff in it.
Silver Pegasus: Mounted Discipline.
True Arrow: Archer Discipline. Should probably have the supernatural parts stripped out, now that I think about it.
Viper Fang: Energy (Acid). Poisons, vital strikes, and other brutalities.

They were going to all have prestige classes (the Moonshifter and Exile are the only two done when I got distracted), feats, maybe even tactical feats (but I had no idea what to put there), and legacy weapons. I think the Iron Bow of Gesen (classic D&D artifact) was going to show up as the legacy weapon for True Arrow.

On another note, I saw an NPC class a long time ago that would fit with this, although I haven't gone looking for it since. It was called the Initiate, and had access to one discipline, chosen on creation, with no recovery method. If I had to guess, I'd say d6 hit die and rogue BAB. Nonetheless, a dedicated Sublime Way NPC class is fully writable.

elliott20
2009-12-13, 08:46 AM
As stated before, this also means that someone is going to have to come up with the requisite 2 feats and perhaps legacy weapon for the lesser disciplines.

Shyftir
2009-12-13, 03:06 PM
I might be able to help with that, but first I want to finish my baby, Mystic Cobra. (Including feats and legacy weapon.)
Speaking of Legacy Weapons: Personally I think they are some of the hardest things to homebrew in connection with TOB, getting balance right on powerful items is tough IMHO.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-13, 05:41 PM
As I said in the Chthonic Serpent thread, I don't think we need the Legacy weapons for each Discipline. After all, there are only the "Nine Swords", nothing in the fluff requires that every other Discipline have a counter-part. Beyond that, the Weapons of Legacy mechanic is terrible, and not really worth my time, at least. I have no interest in making one for the Chthonic Serpent.

Haven
2009-12-13, 05:48 PM
Wow. Wish I was better with 3.5 so I could help, because this is a fantastic project. As it is, all I can offer is a little cheerleading for y'all. Seriously, what a brilliant idea; I really look forward to its eventual release and would love playing a campaign based on this book, since it sounds like it really simulates the origins of martial arts with so many ultra-specialized and competing disciplines. I can probably offer general proofreading/editing services later on, if you want.

pyrefiend
2009-12-13, 07:00 PM
As I said in the Chthonic Serpent thread, I don't think we need the Legacy weapons for each Discipline. After all, there are only the "Nine Swords", nothing in the fluff requires that every other Discipline have a counter-part. Beyond that, the Weapons of Legacy mechanic is terrible, and not really worth my time, at least. I have no interest in making one for the Chthonic Serpent.

Seconded. Legacy weapons usually aren't even worth having.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-13, 07:22 PM
Seconded. Legacy weapons usually aren't even worth having.

Yeah, the main reason I made a weapon for Ocean Tempest was to get the backstory in there without putting a wall o' text at the beginning, not because I actually expect anyone to use it. Then again, writing up a legacy weapon that just doesn't have any penalties might be worth it.

Dante & Vergil
2009-12-13, 09:06 PM
Then again, writing up a legacy weapon that just doesn't have any penalties might be worth it.

What you guys could do is put this in as a varient for legacy weapons when you get the pdf together.

elliott20
2009-12-13, 09:16 PM
Don't look at me. I can barely get the Legacy Weapon rules straight.

Okay, if we don't feel the value added of legacy weapons are worth it, we can just scrap that for now.

But I'm guessing we're all okay with the traditional enhancement feat and the tactical feat, am I right?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-13, 09:36 PM
I certainly intend to do at least one of each for Chthonic Serpent, yes.

Nero24200
2009-12-14, 06:09 AM
We could just rewrite the weapons to simply be weapons with enhancments that scale. Remove the penalties for using legacay weapons (like losing hit points etc) and instead of riturals, just say that as long as you have manuevers from a certain school, you gain these bonuses.

In fact, that could work well. If you say...remake the legacy weapon for the Iron Heart school, you could provide several different levels of benifits and say "If you have X manuevers (at least one of which is X level) you gain..." and so on, making it that someone who specialises more gains more benifits from the legacy weapon.

elliott20
2009-12-14, 10:23 AM
considering the amount of rework that will involve, I think maybe we can hold off on that idea and revisit it later on.

I think my next big thing to do is going to be creating a flow chart that shows the various styles time periods and shows how things are related.

DracoDei
2009-12-14, 11:36 AM
My life has been hectic lately(I know, I know..."Join the club"). I THINK I can finish the last few maneuvers that I started those months back, but I still would need to add a series of banana peel based ones... BUT Falling Anvil already is incrediably maneuver rich, so I don't think what I have done or not at any given point should keep the WHOLE discipline out of this project... is that OK?

For specifics, "Paper Thin Disguise" is going to be pretty easy, but even with it half-done finishing up "Dust Cloud Melee" is going to be difficult. I know in my head how I want it to work (although there is one aspect I could be talked into changing), but putting that into mechanics is tricky. The Banana peel ones should be reasonable easy, they are just trip-attempt generating traps that ignore the opponent's size modifiers. At higher levels you get more of them, longer range to place them, and maybe better IFF (Identify Friend/Foe).

Saintheart
2009-12-14, 08:43 PM
Although I'm really pretty new at creating homebrews, guys, I'd also love the opportunity to write up some fluff for ... well, anything, really, as you may require for the book. If you needed some example of my ... er ... capabilities in that regard, see the "Dorokusai" monster from the Chthonic Serpent discipline. I'm not really that fantastic at mechanics, but I read Eric Lustbader's The Ninja and its two sequels a lot as a kid, and I like to think I absorbed a "feel" for martial arts writing from those books. But anyway, just sticking my mitt up. :)

elliott20
2009-12-14, 09:14 PM
Although I'm really pretty new at creating homebrews, guys, I'd also love the opportunity to write up some fluff for ... well, anything, really, as you may require for the book. If you needed some example of my ... er ... capabilities in that regard, see the "Dorokusai" monster from the Chthonic Serpent discipline. I'm not really that fantastic at mechanics, but I read Eric Lustbader's The Ninja and its two sequels a lot as a kid, and I like to think I absorbed a "feel" for martial arts writing from those books. But anyway, just sticking my mitt up. :)

Don't sell yourself short man. That Dorokusai write up is AWESOME. I don't know about the rest of us, but for me, very few monster entries can instantly bring story board ideas to mind with just reading the write up. Dorokusai happens to be able to do just that.

Heck, the power of the Dorokusai you wrote up you could probably do an entire mini-campaign based around one.

DracoDei, don't worry about it. Falling Anvil is already in it's final tuning stage and that is good enough for me as is. If you do finishing tweaking it in the future and feel it needs to be updated, we'll amend it then.

elliott20
2009-12-15, 07:44 PM
slight bump

DracoDei
2009-12-15, 09:37 PM
Paper-Thin Disguise(old news), and the three Banana Peel-based maneuvers are up.

Thanks to zerombr for the basic idea of including banana slips... even if it took me three months to finally get around to it.

elliott20
2009-12-16, 09:43 AM
Preliminary draft to the various disciplines and their relationships thus far.

this will be amended as people start setting more relationships and such.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1697/roughdraft.th.gif (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/roughdraft.gif/)

Shyftir
2009-12-16, 01:19 PM
Mystic Cobra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134530) I've added level 4!

As for its origins: It should somehow be related to Devoted Spirit due to its origin as "the Sohei" discipline which is a temple guard kinda thing.
Maybe it was started by a guy who was functioning as a guard for the TotNS and was a low level initiator. He is cast adrift because he had formed no solid connections with any one school when the Temple falls and goes on to become a leader of a Sohei group at another temple. He develops Mystic Cobra as he tries to train his "troops"in a relevant martial discipline.

Okay, now to write that up as proper Fluff...

Eldan
2009-12-16, 01:37 PM
Question: anyone interested in a little side project over the holidays? Specifically, a ToB battle league? We make characters of a certain level using classes, PrCs, maneuvers and feats from this book, then let them fight each other in a tournament over in the PbP section. Anyone interested? I could even try and draw up some arena maps.

dangerprawn
2009-12-16, 02:03 PM
Question: anyone interested in a little side project over the holidays? Specifically, a ToB battle league? We make characters of a certain level using classes, PrCs, maneuvers and feats from this book, then let them fight each other in a tournament over in the PbP section. Anyone interested? I could even try and draw up some arena maps.

That sounds fun. I'd really like to test out my Fighter ToB variant.

Sanguine
2009-12-16, 02:25 PM
Question: anyone interested in a little side project over the holidays? Specifically, a ToB battle league? We make characters of a certain level using classes, PrCs, maneuvers and feats from this book, then let them fight each other in a tournament over in the PbP section. Anyone interested? I could even try and draw up some arena maps.


Sounds fun count me in.

DracoDei
2009-12-16, 02:33 PM
I don't think I should participate directly, but I am always interested in play-test data for my creations.

Eldan
2009-12-16, 02:54 PM
By the way, elliott, I just had a look at the list, and it seems you listed a lot of PrCs by TDO as base classes instead.

pyrefiend
2009-12-16, 03:16 PM
Preliminary draft to the various disciplines and their relationships thus far.

this will be amended as people start setting more relationships and such.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1697/roughdraft.th.gif (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/roughdraft.gif/)

Should be "witch razor", not "white razor".:smalltongue: Also if you're looking to make connections between disciplines, it might make sense for it to be connected to Shadow Hand, maybe Diamond Mind.

Eldan
2009-12-16, 03:27 PM
Okay, a few people interested, good. Thought you would be. What level would people like? 1,10,20, something else? Not above 20, please, this is not an epic test.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 04:37 PM
I'd say a variety would be good - 1, 5, 10, 15, 20?

Anyway, I'd be interested. I don't have a lot of actual D&D combat experience, so I'm not positive of my ability to properly test things, but I'd certainly try.

Eldan
2009-12-16, 04:43 PM
Perhaps we could make different leagues. But then I'd really need a few other judges. Anyway, I'm going any opening a recruitment thread.

Nero24200
2009-12-16, 05:08 PM
Question: anyone interested in a little side project over the holidays? Specifically, a ToB battle league? We make characters of a certain level using classes, PrCs, maneuvers and feats from this book, then let them fight each other in a tournament over in the PbP section. Anyone interested? I could even try and draw up some arena maps.

I'd be happy to join in. As a plus, it'll give us the chance to test-play some of the custom disciplines.

Eldan
2009-12-16, 05:12 PM
Here we go: Tournament ready. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135300)

I_Got_This_Name
2009-12-16, 06:21 PM
Preliminary draft to the various disciplines and their relationships thus far.

this will be amended as people start setting more relationships and such.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1697/roughdraft.th.gif (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/roughdraft.gif/)

For the lesser disciplines, I think you dropped a C from Glacial Chill. Also the entirety of Masked Moon.

Viper Fang should be related to Shadow Hand, and possibly listed as post-Temple. The Lesser Disciplines are not inherently related to eachother (although I envision Silver Pegasus and True Arrow as being related, or at least invented by the same people).

Haven
2009-12-16, 07:23 PM
Base Class
Blade Operant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5687663) - Demented One
Dreaming Lotus Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4726582) - Demented One
Ebon Raven General (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5400789) - Demented One
Enlightened Budoka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83488) - Demented One
Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52597) - Demented One
Leviathan-Born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5742363) - Demented One
Braveheart Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5581750) - Demented One
Madspawn Broodling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74277) - Demented One
Nightmare Reaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58986) - Demented One
Oracle Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30165) - Demented One
Savage Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3875727) - Demented One
Silent Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4583986) = Demented One
Spellfire Banisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6415945#post6415945) - Demented One
Sublime Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54338) - Demented One
Thousand-Arrow Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76147) - Demented One
Whirlwind Heir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70472) - Demented One
Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6885801&postcount=23)
Martial Soul - PairO'Dice


Hey, I just looked over this post and all these classes are prestige classes listed under base classes (also, Warrior Poet is listed twice).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-16, 08:25 PM
Preliminary draft to the various disciplines and their relationships thus far.

this will be amended as people start setting more relationships and such.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1697/roughdraft.th.gif (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/roughdraft.gif/)

I didn't see Ninefold Damnation or Ocean Tempest in there; ND should be in the Origin Unknown section, and OT in Temple's Destruction.

Saintheart
2009-12-16, 08:27 PM
If I might offer a note or two, in kind of a "historical dating" context and subject, of course, to the Word of God of the author if they show up...

It might be better to place Solaris Arcanum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7227911#post7227911) in the Post Martial Period. On the notes we have, the discipline is ancient to the point of predating all known races. However, knowledge of the discipline only resurfaced after the Masters of the Jade Phoenix rediscovered its existence, which, if they are Jade Phoenix within the definition of the prestige class as described in ToB, puts them well after the life of Reshar and probably after the Destruction of the Temple as well.

The Black Heron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100874) discipline seems to date most closely to the Pre-Reshar Period, given the notes on the discipline indicate Reshar went out of his way to destroy references to it and that he made a deliberate choice not to teach it at the Temple. If that's right then clearly Reshar didn't create it as a style, but it does seem to have been a martial discipline in existence during Reshar's life; perhaps the style first showed up as an outgrowth of the original Iron Heart discipline which Reshar learned, and the references Reshar destroyed almost excluusively came from the documents relating to that discipline.

The Black Lotus (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526550/Base_Class_Sublime_Assassin__Black_Lotus_Disciplin e_PEACH_please) school's origin can be divined by looking to the capabilities of its most common practitioners, the Sublime Assassins. We don't have any information as to the school's founders or early masters, but such assassins commonly use techniques from either this school, Diamond Mind, or -- crucially -- the Shadow Hand discipline (Sublime Assassins have a Weapon of Choice class feature drawing from these schools also.) It seems a decent inference to make that the founders of the Black Lotus school must have developed or created their discipline from variations on the Shadow Hand or Diamond Mind disciplines. Of these two, Shadow Hand is probably the more likely: the masters of the Shadow Hand and the Tiger Claw were expelled from the Temple of Nine -- thus setting in motion events that would lead to its downfall -- so there might well be cause to say that an apprentice, family member or close associate of the Master of Shadow went on to create the Black Lotus school. Hence I think one could reasonably place the origin of this school in the "Temple's Destruction" period.

The Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276) discipline (and given the Demented One is active on the boards, I realise this is an exercise in hilarity if he steps in and Josses me :smallwink: ) seems to date to the Pre-Reshar period; although it's not widely taught at the Temple of Nine, it was taught nonetheless, so we know it existed while Reshar was alive. Although it is not explicitly said, one might make the argument that the Sleeping Goddess was either an influence upon, or a variant school upon, the Diamond Mind discipline since both focus on strength of mind in one shape or another. I would venture the Sleeping Goddess was a variant arising out of Diamond Mind, since the only reason one can suppose for the discipline not being taught widely at the Temple was because its application was limited down to those gifted individuals able to harness it, while Diamond Mind was more generally applicable.

The schools of Infinite Torment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102215) and Ninefold Damnation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98474)(and again, many apologies to PairO'Dice ... ) probably bothdate back to the Pre-Reshar Period -- mainly because of the ageless nature of the planes from which it comes and its practice by extraplanar servants of evil. That is, they're both schools whose knowledge was jealously guarded by the denizens of the lower planes and whose power in part is drawn from those unholy places.

Happily, the Ocean Tempest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101214) school can certainly be dated: the recorded history of its signature weapon, the Ocean's Fury, sets out:

After the Temple of Nine Swords was attacked by the Shadow Tiger horde, its surviving students fled; besides simple survival, one of their aims was to recover the nine lost discipline swords and in so doing reconstruct the temple. A group of students specializing in the Desert Wind and Stone Dragon schools found their disciplines’ swords and rejoiced, but soon afterwards they found themselves fleeing the Shadow Tiger horde once again. They found a ship that would take them and began sailing from island to island, hoping to evade their pursuers.

As the weeks wore on and the pursuit seemed no farther away, the students decided to teach the crew some of the secrets of the Sublime Way, both to help defend the ship and to pass on the traditions. The sailors, having lived at sea all their life, didn’t take very well to the training; there seemed to be a tradition for air and fire, and one for stone, but why not water, which was all around them and with which they were well acquainted? The sailors worked with the Temple students to develop their own path, and, once they had become skilled in this new discipline, commissioned a sword from the ship’s smith to match Desert Wind and Unfettered. The ship’s smith, not wanting to duplicate any of the swords the Temple students had mentioned, decided to create a khopesh, a curved sword from his native land that reminded him of the waves and the sea; he finished the blade and carved designs into it but was still decorating the hilt when their enemies found them. When the ship’s pursuers finally reached the ship, they found, not a few swordsages leading a frightened crew, but a group of warriors using never-before-seen techniques that turned the surrounding sea against them. Though the students of the new discipline emerged victorious, the unfinished discipline sword was lost during the battle, falling overboard and coming to rest on the sea floor.

This discipline, therefore, falls directly into the period of the Temple's Destruction -- and, as with Broken Blade, its origin comes as a direct result of the Original School of the Nine.

...Phew, more notes for later. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Aaaaand I've been both ninja'd and Jossed by PairO'Dice Lost. :smallbiggrin:

I_Got_This_Name
2009-12-16, 08:32 PM
Ninefold Damnation is in the picture it's just in the wrong place. It's in the block of six between the two gray boxes (Pre-Reshar Period), in the bottom middle.

Saintheart
2009-12-16, 08:47 PM
One other quick note -- the Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205) school, if Fax Celestis is cool with it, could be easily shoehorned in as an offshoot of the Ocean Tempest school. It's said to have been created by seafaring martial adepts, which suggests it came as a result of the work of the Temple of Nine, but I think an interesting way to incorporate it would be to suggest that a ship carrying several Ocean Tempest adepts, wrecked in a fierce storm, were rescued by merfolk or some other aquatic denizens. In gratitude for saving their lives, the adepts taught the basics of the Sublime Way to their rescuers, who then adapted the style for wholly underwater environments (hence the removal of the -4 penalty for underwater combat).

Golden-Esque
2009-12-16, 08:58 PM
It might be better to place Solaris Arcanum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7227911#post7227911) in the Post Martial Period. On the notes we have, the discipline is ancient to the point of predating all known races. However, knowledge of the discipline only resurfaced after the Masters of the Jade Phoenix rediscovered its existence, which, if they are Jade Phoenix within the definition of the prestige class as described in ToB, puts them well after the life of Reshar and probably after the Destruction of the Temple as well.

This would be correct. The Solaris Arcanum Discipline predates all currently living mortal races, having been created by a common humanoid ancestor. The discipline was lost to the sands of time until the Masters of the Jade Phoenix (the same located in the original Tome of Battle) discovered it. It is essentially a rewrite to the lore presented in the Tome of Battle, and it might be worth it to revise the Jade Phoenix Mage prestige class to work with it, though I'm not sure if its needed, given how powerful that class is by itself.

I_Got_This_Name
2009-12-16, 09:20 PM
We absolutely need to establish more relations between disciplines. As for mine, do whatever you want with them; if I don't like it, I might walk off; if I get bored, I will walk off, but the disciplines I wrote belong as much to the people using them as they do to me.

A proper synthesis doesn't just get everything using the same rules, but it makes them into a unified whole. If that means cutting some disciplines to pieces and building frankensteins out of the parts, so be it. Everything I've written is perfectly fair game to do that with. Really, we have too many disciplines to fit into any one campaign and give any minimum amount of screen time to all of them in (If all you fight are level-appropriate single-discipline specialized martial adepts, which are the best way to make a discipline memorable in terms of screen time costs, it would take you almost four levels to use all the disciplines we have. Call it three, if you can skip over all of the disciplines the PCs pay attention to), so if we start clumping them into groups of two, three, or even four, and chopping those groups up and mixing them together, that's actually fine.

E: Also, if we're redesigning things, we can make maneuvers scale. Seriously, we have spells, which cost differently-valued resources to use depending on when you first got access to them, and we have maneuvers, which all cost the same thing to use, yet spells scale to keep pace with eachother and maneuvers don't. This is exactly backwards from where it should be.

Saintheart
2009-12-16, 10:02 PM
I_Got_This_Name, I'll try and do justice to your lesser disciplines as much as I can, and I always believe myself to be subject to the Word of God if I'm messing with a discipline to one extent or another.

Anyway, continuing with some historical notes ... The Narrow Bridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) also seems able to be dated to the Pre-Reshar period, since again we have references to Reshar being aware of the discipline but choosing not to teach it or allow it to be taught at the Temple of Nine. Thus, again, it's a discipline that exists at the time Reshar lived, but parallel (at least) to the existence of the Temple.

Subject to the authors' thoughts, I actually think a case can be made that the Black Heron school springs, at least tangentially, from the Narrow Bridge. A student of the Narrow Bridge chose to focus on the darker aspects of the discipline, and his ability and draw on the dark aspect of ki attracted the attention of a powerful demon, who possessed him, thus creating the first practitioner -- indeed the first master -- of the Black Heron school. Any problems, guys?

One of the real opportunities we've got is the Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) discipline, which is a blank canvas and focuses entirely on archery. It looks like it's just made for elves, although I think for realism it fits best in the Post Martial period. Something so focused on archery would not have escaped Reshar's attentions had it been around, yet it's not taught at the Temple. In this case, I think a case can be made that the Tiri Kitor -- a race of wild elves, see the Red Hand of Doom adventure for more details -- have only ever had one "graduate" of the Temple of the Nine, who came to the temple, received his training, found it unsatisfactory for his love of bows, so he returned home and began to develop the Falling Star discipline alone. As he did, he retreated further and further from elven civilisation -- though because he's so long-lived, he does remain as one of the few now living who trained while the Temple still existed. We could develop this section of the art as an art focused around one individual, taught to a rare few.

elliott20
2009-12-16, 10:08 PM
Wow, that's a lot of errors on my part. This is why I'm glad I have you guys here. As you can all see, I'm a pretty terrible copy writer. Changes are being made right now.

I agree with I_Got_This_Name, actually. As it stands right now, part of the problem is that we now have over 50 or so active disciplines, and if treating each one as it's own unique school, it can get really hard trying to keep it all straight. (Evidence by the fact that I managed to drop like 3 or 4 different disciplines when making the chart)

Perhaps a better way would be to create clusters to group them together. It's part of the reason why I grouped the original into a single school. (Clearly though, it's not as effective if we were to simply split them up and have them be called their own school.)

And the tournament idea is fantastic. We can use this as a chance to fine tune the balance.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-16, 11:21 PM
EDIT: Aaaaand I've been both ninja'd and Jossed by PairO'Dice Lost. :smallbiggrin:

You didn't get Jossed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Jossed); your interpretation agreed with mine (and showed that someone's read that Ocean's Fury fluff!).


One other quick note -- the Ocean Soul school, if Fax Celestis is cool with it, could be easily shoehorned in as an offshoot of the Ocean Tempest school. It's said to have been created by seafaring martial adepts, which suggests it came as a result of the work of the Temple of Nine, but I think an interesting way to incorporate it would be to suggest that a ship carrying several Ocean Tempest adepts, wrecked in a fierce storm, were rescued by merfolk or some other aquatic denizens. In gratitude for saving their lives, the adepts taught the basics of the Sublime Way to their rescuers, who then adapted the style for wholly underwater environments (hence the removal of the -4 penalty for underwater combat).

I like that idea a lot, and if Fax agrees to that I can add a note in the Ocean Tempest fluff to that effect.

The only change I'd make would be to have them shipwrecked/lost/cast adrift/etc. as a result of the battle where Ocean's Fury was lost; that explanation provides additional cause for the split in the discipline, as the Ocean Soul adepts would have seen that Ocean Tempest didn't work for them in the battle and would have had reason to tweak their existing (and admittedly incomplete) training with their rescuers.

Saintheart
2009-12-16, 11:26 PM
Wow, that's a lot of errors on my part. This is why I'm glad I have you guys here. As you can all see, I'm a pretty terrible copy writer. Changes are being made right now.

I agree with I_Got_This_Name, actually. As it stands right now, part of the problem is that we now have over 50 or so active disciplines, and if treating each one as it's own unique school, it can get really hard trying to keep it all straight. (Evidence by the fact that I managed to drop like 3 or 4 different disciplines when making the chart)

Perhaps a better way would be to create clusters to group them together. It's part of the reason why I grouped the original into a single school. (Clearly though, it's not as effective if we were to simply split them up and have them be called their own school.)

First, if I gave the impression I was just pointing out errors, apologies; I just decided to go looking for indicators on origin and some hooks which might allow us to link one or more disciplines together.

I think it's still a useful exercise to try and date the disciplines as we're doing, since that at least suggests some connections between different schools.

Having said that, when we're talking about clusters of schools, or grouping them together, are we talking about merging some schools with others? Because I can see some problems in trying to figure out whose disciplines make the cut, so to speak, and not others. Not to mention that simply cut and pasting maneuvers or stances or powers or whatever into other schools is more likely to unbalance the schools that remain, or overpower them.

If, though, you're talking about creating an "overgroup" for a given cluster of schools in which variants are expressed, that might be doable. Ocean Soul and Ocean Tempest are just about ready for such a procedure as they stand - an "overgroup" called the Way of Saltwater within which seafaring martial adepts tend to practice Ocean Tempest while aquatic species tend to practice Ocean Soul.

EDIT: PairO'Dice again makes a really cool suggestion, which can totally work if you want to put the two disciplines into an overgroup called the Way of Saltwater -- a division in the discipline along the lines he described.

elliott20
2009-12-16, 11:50 PM
First, if I gave the impression I was just pointing out errors, apologies; I just decided to go looking for indicators on origin and some hooks which might allow us to link one or more disciplines together.

oh no, I was just talking about the general amount of typos and details I missed.


Having said that, when we're talking about clusters of schools, or grouping them together, are we talking about merging some schools with others? Because I can see some problems in trying to figure out whose disciplines make the cut, so to speak, and not others. Not to mention that simply cut and pasting maneuvers or stances or powers or whatever into other schools is more likely to unbalance the schools that remain, or overpower them.

If, though, you're talking about creating an "overgroup" for a given cluster of schools in which variants are expressed, that might be doable. Ocean Soul and Ocean Tempest are just about ready for such a procedure as they stand - an "overgroup" called the Way of Saltwater within which seafaring martial adepts tend to practice Ocean Tempest while aquatic species tend to practice Ocean Soul.

EDIT: PairO'Dice again makes a really cool suggestion, which can totally work if you want to put the two disciplines into an overgroup called the Way of Saltwater -- a division in the discipline along the lines he described.
[/quote]
I was thinking the latter. Mostly, just grouping them together so that people can refer to the collection of disciplines as a group. (kind of like how Karate now a days has the Kyokushin, Shotokan, etc, but are all referred to as Karate) Actually cutting up and re-collecting the disciplines is a doable idea but then like you said, requires a lot more balancing.

Saintheart
2009-12-16, 11:58 PM
Double posting, but in the interests of furthering the discussion, asiding from dating, I'm looking into disciplines that might be grouped together based on thematic considerations or common elements in their notes.

Of these, three of them so far (I'll edit in more if I find them) might well go together as a sub-group: the Narrow Bridge, Far Realm, and Kaleidoscopic Dream. The reason they go together is mainly because they broadly speak to monk orders breaching planes or realms or messing with primal forces: Narrow Bridge explores the line between life and death; Kaleidoscopic Dream speaks of its master exploring a dimension of chaos; and Far Realm is established on a monk who again breached dimensional walls. All of them either say Reshar knew of the discipline and chose not to teach it, or don't mention him at all which is the same thing. This wouldn't be hard to set up as a kind of "Monastery Within the Lights" a la Northern Lights by Phillip Pullman in that the monastery shifts dimensions now and then, making its occupants harder to access, and it's a receptacle of plane-shifting, enlightened folk. Hell, we could call it the Monastery of Broken Rainbows as the Kaleidoscopic Dream discipline suggests.

Fool's Grip can, I think, be carefully shoehorned into this post, as well, I think, since it's an improvised/unarmed combat discipline and monks are, well, unarmed. The phrase "was not taught at the Temple of Nine or any similar training center" can be circumvented given the Monastery of Broken Rainbows is kind of hard to get to and isn't your average martial school.

I also think there's an argument for saying that Coin's Edge, with its focus on affecting probability and therefore messing with the fundamental forces of the universe, also had an association with the Monastery; maybe Uther Doul was a monk who left the monastery but used its disciplines to become the master of Coin's Edge.

And, just to infuriate the Demented One even more :smallbiggrin: I think you could make an argument that the only practitioners of the Golden Saint school are at the Monastery also. Because that's an extraplanar school, too: from the Celestial Realms, no less.

EDIT: First thought, albeit somewhat unrelated: reading the Placid Lake school and its elven master makes it a solid place to put the Falling Star discipline as part of a subgroup, I think. Perhaps the founder of the Falling Star school was a Guardian of the Frozen Grotto as described in the Placid Lake text, who changed career after maxing out the PrC and began to found the Falling Star discipline.

EDIT THE SECOND: Black Rain and Way of the Gear surely can go together as a subgroup, and since Way of the Gear doesn't have an origin point, it can be placed in the Post Martial Period also, I would think.

EDIT THE THIRD: I think on thematic considerations that one could subgroup Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation, and Dread Crown together. Indeed it's a synthesis of devils' and demons' martial disciplines.

Rolling updates are in effect on this post.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 12:12 AM
PairO'Dice, wouldn't it make sense for Ninefold Damnation and Infinite Torment to be the styles invented by Levistus and Graz'zt respectively that Dread Crown was derived from? Black Heron could be derived from Infinite Torment, via demons who learned it from Graz'zt - though I like how Saintheart links to to Narrow Bridge.

The emphasis on nature and agility in Tiger Claw and Dancing Leaf suggests common roots; perhaps they were once halves of a composite style, with the defensive techniques becoming Dancing Leaf and the offensive techniques becoming Tiger Claw.

Way of the Gear should be very recent, possibly derived from Black Rain and still not fully synthesized into a complete discipline. Black Rain probably has roots in Falling Star.

Untamed Essence is probably partly derived from Solaris Arcanum, what with the Spellcraft focus.

Chthonic Serpent's emphasis on grapples and redirection suggests Setting Sun influence.

Krimm's Quicksilver Aegis fluff notes:

But, as the justice of the world would have it, a swordsmen found the crippled inevitable. The warrior was a martial adept, fleeing from the ruin of the Temple of the Nine Swords. Docens XII asked the warrior to kill him and then serve as his proxy in bringing the mage to justice, harrying him long enough for a Docens XIII to be created on Mechanus and finish the task. To that end, Docens XII taught the warrior everything he knew of fighting, teaching him every secret of the inevitables in regards to swordplay.

So it started being practiced on the Material Plane in the Temple's Destruction era but has older roots.

Jack Mann's Far Realm fluff says:
Years ago, the monk Fayid Sulhardin visited the Far Realm to find a way to fight the forces that originated there.

No one knows what he found, but it drove him quite mad. He muttered and gibbered about plants that grew clawed fingers, children made of knives, and eyes as large as continents that watched him in his sleep. But mad as he was, he was still able to use what he’d learned to create a new discipline integrating the horrible mysteries with weaponsplay.

So it's only been practiced on the Material Plane relatively recently, probably in the post-martial era. However, it could have much older roots like the other extraplanar-derived disciplines.

EDIT:

Double posting, but in the interests of furthering the discussion, asiding from dating, I'm looking into disciplines that might be grouped together based on thematic considerations or common elements in their notes.

Of these, three of them so far (I'll edit in more if I find them) might well go together as a sub-group: the Narrow Bridge, Far Realm, and Kaleidoscopic Dream. The reason they go together is mainly because they broadly speak to monk orders breaching planes or realms or messing with primal forces: Narrow Bridge explores the line between life and death; Kaleidoscopic Dream speaks of its master exploring a dimension of chaos; and Far Realm is established on a monk who again breached dimensional walls. All of them either say Reshar knew of the discipline and chose not to teach it, or don't mention him at all which is the same thing. This wouldn't be hard to set up as a kind of "Monastery Within the Lights" a la Northern Lights by Phillip Pullman in that the monastery shifts dimensions now and then, making its occupants harder to access, and it's a receptacle of plane-shifting, enlightened folk. Hell, we could call it the Monastery of Broken Rainbows as the Kaleidoscopic Dream discipline suggests.

I'll think more on this and add more to this post, but wanted to get that suggestion out there.

This is awesome and I heartily endorse it.

elliott20
2009-12-17, 12:41 AM
Keep it coming guys.

I'll upload a second draft tonight once I get all the changes in.

DracoDei
2009-12-17, 12:42 AM
The linking of the two aquatic themed disciplines is fine, as long as you specify that the survivors drifted far enough that the merfolk had no idea where they came from, and thus couldn't go look for the sword fairly easily AND/OR that the depth at that point was great enough that the water was too cold or the pressure too high for the merfolk to survive.

Haven
2009-12-17, 01:09 AM
Keep it coming guys.

I'll upload a second draft tonight once I get all the changes in.

The assassin PrC is still under the base class listing. :smalltongue:

elliott20
2009-12-17, 01:11 AM
The assassin PrC is still under the base class listing. :smalltongue:

buh... wuh... tchh... you....

Saintheart
2009-12-17, 01:27 AM
The linking of the two aquatic themed disciplines is fine, as long as you specify that the survivors drifted far enough that the merfolk had no idea where they came from, and thus couldn't go look for the sword fairly easily AND/OR that the depth at that point was great enough that the water was too cold or the pressure too high for the merfolk to survive.

Of these two I think the latter. Merfolk and aquatic species have a pretty long range.

The Demented One
2009-12-17, 01:51 AM
The Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276) discipline (and given the Demented One is active on the boards, I realise this is an exercise in hilarity if he steps in and Josses me :smallwink: ) seems to date to the Pre-Reshar period; although it's not widely taught at the Temple of Nine, it was taught nonetheless, so we know it existed while Reshar was alive. Although it is not explicitly said, one might make the argument that the Sleeping Goddess was either an influence upon, or a variant school upon, the Diamond Mind discipline since both focus on strength of mind in one shape or another. I would venture the Sleeping Goddess was a variant arising out of Diamond Mind, since the only reason one can suppose for the discipline not being taught widely at the Temple was because its application was limited down to those gifted individuals able to harness it, while Diamond Mind was more generally applicable.
Sleeping Goddess dates back to whenever psionics arose within the setting, which makes this potentially variable. In Eberron it'd be one of the first disciplines ever created; it could very well have been created a year ago within this setting. It has no relation to Diamond Mind, and is instead the result of soul knives and psychic warriors developing martial techniques to exploit their innate psionic powers.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-17, 03:40 AM
I_Got_This_Name, I'll try and do justice to your lesser disciplines as much as I can, and I always believe myself to be subject to the Word of God if I'm messing with a discipline to one extent or another.

Anyway, continuing with some historical notes ... The Narrow Bridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) also seems able to be dated to the Pre-Reshar period, since again we have references to Reshar being aware of the discipline but choosing not to teach it or allow it to be taught at the Temple of Nine. Thus, again, it's a discipline that exists at the time Reshar lived, but parallel (at least) to the existence of the Temple.

Subject to the authors' thoughts, I actually think a case can be made that the Black Heron school springs, at least tangentially, from the Narrow Bridge. A student of the Narrow Bridge chose to focus on the darker aspects of the discipline, and his ability and draw on the dark aspect of ki attracted the attention of a powerful demon, who possessed him, thus creating the first practitioner -- indeed the first master -- of the Black Heron school. Any problems, guys?

One of the real opportunities we've got is the Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) discipline, which is a blank canvas and focuses entirely on archery. It looks like it's just made for elves, although I think for realism it fits best in the Post Martial period. Something so focused on archery would not have escaped Reshar's attentions had it been around, yet it's not taught at the Temple. In this case, I think a case can be made that the Tiri Kitor -- a race of wild elves, see the Red Hand of Doom adventure for more details -- have only ever had one "graduate" of the Temple of the Nine, who came to the temple, received his training, found it unsatisfactory for his love of bows, so he returned home and began to develop the Falling Star discipline alone. As he did, he retreated further and further from elven civilisation -- though because he's so long-lived, he does remain as one of the few now living who trained while the Temple still existed. We could develop this section of the art as an art focused around one individual, taught to a rare few.

For both Falling Star and Black Rain, I slightly altered their lore and fluff and several abilities for my own campaign in order to make them viable for all ranged weapons; Falling Star is a supernatural discipline akin to Desert Wind, while Black Rain was more like Iron Heart.

Going back to Solaris Arcanum, the lore behind the discipline's origin is expanded slightly in my new work; my Homebrewed Vestiges (see the sig). Yeah, it's for Binders, but Yavillin grants Binders the ability to use some of the Solaris Arcanum maneuvers. Just thought you might be interested :).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-17, 05:29 AM
EDIT THE THIRD: I think on thematic considerations that one could subgroup Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation, and Dread Crown together. Indeed it's a synthesis of devils' and demons' martial disciplines.

Sounds like a good idea to me; I hadn't seen Dread Crown before, but having just skimmed it, it looks like it works very nicely fluff-wise.


The linking of the two aquatic themed disciplines is fine, as long as you specify that the survivors drifted far enough that the merfolk had no idea where they came from, and thus couldn't go look for the sword fairly easily AND/OR that the depth at that point was great enough that the water was too cold or the pressure too high for the merfolk to survive.

Well, the Ocean Tempest fluff says that a group of merfolk found Ocean's Fury:


Many months after the battle, a group of merfolk found the abandoned sword, which had not rusted or tarnished and was as brilliant as the day it was forged. Sensing its power and captivated by its skillful design—for the merfolk had never seen a khopesh before—its finders brought the sword to their home, where their best crafters replaced the plain metal handle with one resembling the reef near their home. For years afterwards, the best warriors among the merfolk used the sword to fend off attacks against their homes, adding a tiny pearl to the sword for every foe killed, but finally one of its wielders was overcome by a sahuagin who used it in several surface raids. Nearby elven and human settlements grew to fear the fearsome sahuagin who “wielded the very fury of the ocean” against them; stories told by those settlers gave the weapon its name. The elves and humans lived in fear of the sahuagin with Ocean’s Fury until a brave warrior slew him in single combat and took the sword for the humans.

I think the best solution to the problem would be to say that the merfolk didn't find the sword because the merfolk found the sword. :smallwink: Less obtusely, that is to say that the Ocean-Soul-adepts-formerly-known-as-Ocean-Tempest-adepts didn't know that the sword was missing, and even if they did, they wouldn't have any particular reason to go look for it over any other fancy sword. They would've only found out that it had gone missing when they heard tales of it being used by creatures who weren't Ocean Tempest adepts, and by that point it had obviously already been found and it was too late for them to do anything about it.

Eldan
2009-12-17, 06:36 AM
Is it just me, or is Reshar kind of a prick?

I mean, I can see him, sitting in his temple.
"Hmm. There are 39 disciplines I've hear about. Which ones are good enough for me to teach?"
and then go and visit other masters in their temples, going:
"Yeah, you have some nice moves, but know what? I think the Kusari-Gama is a weapon for sissies. Oh, and you? You use mind powers? Yeaaaah... that's just stupid."

ErrantX
2009-12-17, 06:49 AM
The Black Heron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100874) discipline seems to date most closely to the Pre-Reshar Period, given the notes on the discipline indicate Reshar went out of his way to destroy references to it and that he made a deliberate choice not to teach it at the Temple. If that's right then clearly Reshar didn't create it as a style, but it does seem to have been a martial discipline in existence during Reshar's life; perhaps the style first showed up as an outgrowth of the original Iron Heart discipline which Reshar learned, and the references Reshar destroyed almost excluusively came from the documents relating to that discipline.

That's where I'd place it. I'd call it a rarer Discipline that when Reshar discovered it and it's practitioners, he felt that they were a loathsome bunch for using possessing fiends as a supernatural power source for a martial discipline. Some people who have it use it because of unfortunate situation, but many he found used it for the power it brought. As far as connection to any discipline previous, I could see it spawning from an old order of proto-crusaders who followed dark spirits (the demons in my Kazarzeth PrC) and darker gods, an almost shamanistic approach no doubt followed by a monstrous race of some variety. The practice spread from there into fiend-cults and was used by the power hungry or by potent dark priests in their body guards. Followers of the crystal blades were probably the first of the more modern resurgence of the Discipline, but it spread into other possessing fiends from there.

As far as other Discipline interactions, I'd place Black Heron (and it's sister Discipline that I'm working on, Silver Crane for those who channel celestials) having relations with Infinite Torment and Dread Crown in that the fiends who learned and know them often know of if not instruct their vessels in Black Heron as well, but where Infinite Torment and Dread Crown rely on many different facets of the fiendish realms, Black Heron relies on the fury of the demonic beast within and channeling it. It's a brutal, in your face discipline that cares nothing for its wielder; it only wants things to be destroyed.

-X

DracoDei
2009-12-17, 10:39 AM
Sleeping Goddess dates back to whenever psionics arose within the setting, which makes this potentially variable. In Eberron it'd be one of the first disciplines ever created; it could very well have been created a year ago within this setting. It has no relation to Diamond Mind, and is instead the result of soul knives and psychic warriors developing martial techniques to exploit their innate psionic powers.

Well, if they were looking for some place to start from in doing so, Diamond Mind would have been it...

DracoDei
2009-12-17, 11:04 AM
The alternative to Reshar being a prick is that he was actually HUMBLE enough that he just went with the nine biggest ones, which were most likely to contribute to nation-level conflict, in an attempt to promote world peace and understanding (via people hitting eachother, often with sharp objects)... most everything else was fine by him too, just outside of his mission statement and so he didn't want the Temple's focus diluted. Doing things this way might require tweaking some backgrounds, but nothing major...

I_Got_This_Name
2009-12-17, 12:08 PM
Is it just me, or is Reshar kind of a prick?

I mean, I can see him, sitting in his temple.
"Hmm. There are 39 disciplines I've hear about. Which ones are good enough for me to teach?"
and then go and visit other masters in their temples, going:
"Yeah, you have some nice moves, but know what? I think the Kusari-Gama is a weapon for sissies. Oh, and you? You use mind powers? Yeaaaah... that's just stupid."

That's kinda what I went for in the Lesser Disciplines stories. He's written as this great hero in the official material, so digging up his dark side is good when adding on to it. Falling Wave? He's a surfacer elitist. Leaping Gale? He's just a jerk. Rending Scream? Same thing. Of course, that backstory is written in-character, so it could well have an agenda to it.

Shyftir
2009-12-17, 12:10 PM
The Mystic Cobra inventor was a rather devout hobgoblin who had natural affinities for Ironheart and Tiger Claw but was choosing the way of a Crusader hence the connection with Devoted Spirit. Again I'll fluff it better later.

Therefore I'd say that Mystic Cobra is a post-Temple discipline with roots in the fall of the Temple, that is mostly related to Devoted Spirit and Ironheart but with more focus on maneuverability (ha) then either.

And I do plan on playing my sohei adept class in our little tournament. (and probably getting my but kicked due to its quirky focus.)

Haven
2009-12-17, 02:19 PM
And I do plan on playing my sohei adept class in our little tournament. (and probably getting my but kicked due to its quirky focus.)

Hey, you can fight me! I'm a 3.5 permanewb because none of the games I enter ever last ~.~

I'm rather looking forward to that tournament either way though. I think I'm gonna do a quick build using the Far Realm discipline because that just looks fun.

As for Reshar being a ****--to me I think a better explanation would be that one man, no matter how legendary, can only learn (or teach) so much. Or perhaps that he just streamlined everything he saw into the nine disciplines taught at the temple.

I mean, it's possible that he's a ****, but I think either way it wouldn't be possible to teach all forty-odd disciplines. From a more meta point of view, Reshar is sort of the representative of the source material, so I think giving him a positive viewpoint would be a good way to show that we respect the original.

Speaking of which--IIRC on the last page the idea of reducing the number of disciplines was brought up. But to me the thought that there are all these competing and related fighting styles being taught is the point of the manual, as that was a huge influence on the history and development of martial arts--especially in ancient China, but even today it continues. I think the "politics of martial arts" would be a really interesting and unique focus for a campaign, and in this case it'd mean the mechanics would dovetail beautifully with fluff and plot, in a way that doesn't often happen.

Consequently, you don't have to highlight each discipline, either--I think the best way to show that every fighter has their own unique style is to make most characters generalists who use maneuvers from several disciplines, much in the way that most PCs will, in a synergistic or complementary manner.

At least that's my point of view. Sorry for the tl;dr ^^

Dante & Vergil
2009-12-17, 02:54 PM
Ok, I was able to get a bunch of the old Disciplines from the Martial Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium), (Not all of them, unfortunatly).
Here is a quote with the the Disciplines I have marked with this (+) and the ones I don't with this (-). Some of these come from here, so they may be redundant. Also, USE THE LEGEND. It does help with where thing are with the disciplines and where they come from as well.


Martial Compendium Legend
(A) Archived material; this material has been archived by the boards.
(C) Cross-forum material; this material is posted on another forum.
(D) Downloadable material; this material is ready (but not necessarily finished) and can be downloaded.
(F) Finished material; this material is finished and ready to be played.
(M) For mature audiences only; posted on the Mature Topics board.
(R) Readied material; this material is ready to be played, but hasn't been finished.
(S) Supplement material; this material requires another supplement to be played.
(W) Work in progress; this material has been posted, but it isn't ready yet.

*Snip*

Martial Disciplines

+Adamant Soul (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=971254) by Magocrat (R)
+Black Lotus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1034834) by Zachariah (R)
+Bladed Thoughts (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911277) by Yue Ryong (R, S)
+Broken Wave (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=880343) by Neofish
+Carnal Blossom Discipline (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817029) by PinkTaco (M, R)
++Celestial Rain and Diamond Arrow (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193578) by hong (C)
+++++Crescent Moon, Dancing Fox, Heaven's Arc, Jade Viper, and Sanguine Lotus (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901) by Nifft (C, W)
-Crystaline Unicorn and Inner Light (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=881389) by EvilVegan
-Eclipse Raven (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195022) by Freymold (C)
+Eternal Mount Tradition (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=801187) by Magocrat (D, R)
---Falcon Eye, Silver Rain, Twilight Tempest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=825721) by Crimson_Concerto
-Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2502689) by Crystall_Myr (C)
-Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) by Fax Celestis (C)
+Falling Star (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597) by Tempest Stormwind (D, R)
+Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3410915) by Jack Mann and the Logic Ninja (C)
+Feral Crescent (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804757) by Wall
+Fortunate Assailant (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963765) by Master Vega
+Gentle Breeze (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40885) by Closet_Skeleton (C)
+Guided Fate (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195022) by Freymold (C)
+Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71422) by Fax Celestis
+Nightstar Talon Discipline (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=800897) by Obsidianjaerc (W)
+Ninefold Damnation (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908437) by Eldritch_Lord (S)
+Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205) by Fax Celestis (C)
+Ocean Tempest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=891388) by Eldritch_Lord
+Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816) by The Demented One (C)
+Savage Maw (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194297) by DogBackward (C)
+Sky Serpent (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=841294) by Zack2216
+Smoldering Brimstone (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=893581) by fatal_error
+Steel Aegis (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=900023) by TiwazTyrsfist
-The Arts of the Ninja (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5418) by Nick (C)
++The Thousand Years of Steel and the Way of the Crane (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=5546) by Jaerom Darkwind (C)
+Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991) by The Demented One (C)
+Unquiet Twilight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=801933) by aotrscommander (D, R)
+Way of the Placid Lake (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905351) by Yue Ryong (R)

*Snip*

Saintheart
2009-12-17, 08:54 PM
Is it just me, or is Reshar kind of a prick?

I mean, I can see him, sitting in his temple.
"Hmm. There are 39 disciplines I've hear about. Which ones are good enough for me to teach?"
and then go and visit other masters in their temples, going:
"Yeah, you have some nice moves, but know what? I think the Kusari-Gama is a weapon for sissies. Oh, and you? You use mind powers? Yeaaaah... that's just stupid."

LOL.

Even so, disposing with other disciplines does have some historical precedents. Consider A Book of Five Rings. Not only does Miyamoto Musashi, the "Sword Saint", go on at some length about how his school is the best, he takes an entire chapter/scroll to explain how every other school around at the time sucks -- dissing everything from longer swords to polearms to learning many different types of sword strokes. Martial masters aren't beyond vanity, and the best of them recognised their own limitations imposed by physical stature, speed, or strength. Possibly it's a combination of all these things that caused Reshar to abandon the other disciplines -- because they weren't suited to humans such as himself, or because their requirements (psionic ability, for example) weren't something he could utilise.

Or, on the other hand, Reshar could just be a prick.

Saintheart
2009-12-17, 09:23 PM
Double posting, but it's more by way of a running tally of schools and whatnot.

So far I've got the following subgroupings (and I've arbitrarily added names for the overgroups just because I can :smallwink: )

The Way of Saltwater
Ocean Tempest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101214) and Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205)

The Rainbow Disciplines
Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3410915&postcount=5%20Maneuvers%20of%20Madness), Narrow Bridge, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) Kaleidoscopic Dream, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86163) Golden Saint, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150) and Fool's Grip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67879) The discipline of Coin's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75548) is tangentially associated due to its (proposed) practice by a former monk of the Monastery of Broken Rainbows. And if you'll pardon the pun, the discipline of Fortunate Assailant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520194/10th,_Outcast,_Sublime_Discipline:_the_Fortunate_A ssailant_(PEACH)_(Really_Long)) looks like the flip side to Coin's Edge, again with a focus on probability and risky gambles.

The Path of the Obsidian
Ninefold Damnation, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98474) Infinite Torment, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102215) Dread Crown, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) and Black Heron. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218)

Kh'un Fh'u :smallbiggrin:
Way of the Gear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133462) and Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505#post5471505).

The Demented One also mentioned that Sleeping Goddess basically dates back to whenever psionics arose in the setting. Grouping it with other disciplines does therefore make that kind of tricky. D.O., would you have any objections if one assumed that psionics are "always" around in one form or another within this setting and therefore that the technique has a history like Solaris Arcanum in that it is ancient but recently rediscovered?

Golden-Esque
2009-12-17, 09:51 PM
The Demented One also mentioned that Sleeping Goddess basically dates back to whenever psionics arose in the setting. Grouping it with other disciplines does therefore make that kind of tricky. D.O., would you have any objections if one assumed that psionics are "always" around in one form or another within this setting and therefore that the technique has a history like Solaris Arcanum in that it is ancient but recently rediscovered?

An interesting twist with Sleeping Goddess would be if the Discipline itself wasn't ever actually 'taught' to anyone at all. In the Expanded Psionics Handbook, one of the Prestige Classes references a being called the "Golden Mind", which is a sort of conglomerate presence within the minds of all those who who can practice psionics. What if instead of having a master, those who practice the Sleeping Goddess discipline have the knowledge imparted to them by the Golden Mind itself? Therefore, the discipline was always practices and always existed, but Sleeping Goddess was only ever recently acknowledged as a discipline because it literally has no temples or places that taught it. Why bother? It'd be like having a textbook inscribed into your brain.

Haven
2009-12-17, 09:59 PM
The Demented One also mentioned that Sleeping Goddess basically dates back to whenever psionics arose in the setting. Grouping it with other disciplines does therefore make that kind of tricky. D.O., would you have any objections if one assumed that psionics are "always" around in one form or another within this setting and therefore that the technique has a history like Solaris Arcanum in that it is ancient but recently rediscovered?

This tangentially brings up something else I've been wondering about--how to incorporate characters who aren't martial adepts into this setting. Reading this paragraph, I'm reminded that the name for the different psionic powers is, of course, disciplines.

So perhaps psions are also organized into enclaves. In my imagination, martial adepts are going through a renaissance (one which is intrinsically violent, no less) in this setting, one that results in their eventual codification. Perhaps the psions are going through a similar one, or have been through one in the past. (Maybe there's a "Temple of Six Crystals" out there somewhere)

In this setting I can see wizards (as an institution) as calcified, set in their ways, confident that everything there is to learn about magic has already been learned, and looking down on martial adepts and practitioners of other ways, both for having a way of gaining insight into the universe that wizards don't consider valid and for being in such a state of upheaval and change.

And clerics are just the holy men, living in shrines dedicated to whatever gods are at work in the setting--I'd expect most to be cloistered clerics, but the regular cleric is starting to appear as well because it's growing steadily more dangerous with the martial upheaval.

Rogues, of course, live in the margins--they're looked down on by most martial artists for not having the drive to focus on the sublime way, and for instead relying on a single, simplistic combat technique (sneak attack). Nonetheless, dojos still occasionally hire them to steal the secrets of their rivals.

I was having a hard time figuring out where monsters figure into all this--I'd think that, as opposed to the regular D&D setting, most of the opponents would be humanoids (actually, shoot, I was just thinking humans--racial barriers are probably another angle to the "martial politics") with levels in initiator classes. Maybe a sudden influx of monsters is what precipitated the martial revolution (and depending on when the campaign takes place, they may or may not still be around). But of course, there are also monsters and animals living in the wilderness who in some way inspired several of the disciplines (Tiger Claw for instance).

Saintheart
2009-12-17, 10:20 PM
I was having a hard time figuring out where monsters figure into all this--I'd think that, as opposed to the regular D&D setting, most of the opponents would be humanoids (actually, shoot, I was just thinking humans--racial barriers are probably another angle to the "martial politics") with levels in initiator classes. Maybe a sudden influx of monsters is what precipitated the martial revolution (and depending on when the campaign takes place, they may or may not still be around). But of course, there are also monsters and animals living in the wilderness who in some way inspired several of the disciplines (Tiger Claw for instance).

Well, we know that Reshar learned his "first" discipline, Iron Heart IIRC, from a hobgoblin monastery. The blossoming of the martial revolution could have come from an "arms race" between different species or factions within a species. One species clues into the power of martial disciplines and uses them to take on another; their enemy engages in espionage, capture, etc, etc, and learns how it's done, then goes on to develop their own techniques; a third party tries to take advantage of the conflict and learns of the disciplines; knowledge of the discipline gets sold for profit; and so on. Similar to nuclear proliferation in our own time, since, as we all know, ToB is Da Bomb. :smallbiggrin:

On a wider note, though, possibly we need a closer focus on exactly what we want this book to be. As I understood elliot20's original proposal, this was going to essentially be a catalogue and linking-in of the various homebrew disciplines into something akin to ToB; an expansion on ToB. Somewhere along the line (and I may have missed it) it seems we've expanded from creating an expansion book to ToB to outright creating a campaign book based around it.

I'm not sure the latter option is really feasible. We're talking about a time period in the past, for a start; ToB itself indicates Reshar lived "three lifetimes ago" in the introduction, and I think a big reason it's sorta-vague on the precise details of Reshar's life and circumstances is because the book was designed to be dropped into an existing campaign universe with a minimum of fuss. I'm still all for creating a more coherent background to the ToBverse, but creating a campaign in that world is going to be massively big even if we cut the disciplines down into even 10 or 11 schools. It would have to span the entirety of Reshar's life and beyond to cover all of the historical periods we're looking at. As some people have noted, it would be a task on the order of cleansing the Augaean Stables (and without a river to diver, either) to try and create some encounter or mini-campaign devoted to each school one at a time.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick entirely, somebody please slap me down, but I would have thought we should stick to elliot's original focus which was to relate the schools closer to one another, build some more background on the period of the "martial revolution", but really shy away from creating an actual campaign for this project. Indeed a campaign, if there was to be one, should be a secondary project to be considered after we're sure of what's going into this project.

Just my thoughts. As I say, happy to be contradicted or shouted down. :smallcool:

Haven
2009-12-17, 10:29 PM
No, I think you're right. Sorry, I just get carried away sometimes. :smallwink:

elliott20
2009-12-17, 10:35 PM
hmm... it seems this project has definitely taken on a life of it's own beyond me. My initial intention was simply that, a catalog and some link-ins for a martial arts period with some base structures. But it seems that in doing so, we have also started down a path where we're also creating an entire campaign as well, which I must say, is actually kind of exciting to see.

I'm kind of torn too. On one hand, I want to basically work the ToBverse into a campaign settings book to itself, on the other hand, that's a big task. Of course, this is now our project as much as it is mine, so I'll let the homebrewers vote on that.

DracoDei
2009-12-17, 10:39 PM
I agree that spliting it into 2 chunks, and taking things one at a time is highly desirable.

pyrefiend
2009-12-17, 11:42 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and drop a link to the Blood Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135459) discipline I just posted. Not quite complete yet, but hopefully it will be soon.

Shyftir
2009-12-18, 06:27 AM
I'm going to honestly say that bigger decisions on this are not my business. I'm just gonna focus on my Sohei Adept(class), and Mystic Cobra(discipline), how they would be used or brought into anything bigger is up to others.

I do hope to create a PrC related to Mystic Cobra.

In other news, I think Mystic Cobra's connections to Tiger Claw make very little sense, therefor the Sohei Adept's base school choices are changing to:
Stone Dragon, Mystic Cobra, Devoted Spirit, and Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173). (Thanks to Demented One for permission to do so.)


We have NO Samurai equivalent martial class... this needs to be rectified. If nobody else wants it, I'll work on it after I'm done with Mystic Cobra.

ErrantX
2009-12-18, 07:05 PM
I don't really feel more base classes are necessary, base classes fill the role of something that can cover a broad range of things. A swordsage, warblade, or a crusader could easily fit the archetype of the samurai without having to make another base class. Now, a Samurai PrC that fills in a specific niche of specialization wouldn't be out of sorts (such as an Iaiujitsu master), but a warblade with a katana could easily call himself a samurai and it would be fine. Look at Miko!

-X

The Demented One
2009-12-18, 07:42 PM
I don't really feel more base classes are necessary, base classes fill the role of something that can cover a broad range of things. A swordsage, warblade, or a crusader could easily fit the archetype of the samurai without having to make another base class. Now, a Samurai PrC that fills in a specific niche of specialization wouldn't be out of sorts (such as an Iaiujitsu master), but a warblade with a katana could easily call himself a samurai and it would be fine. Look at Miko!

-X
Seconded. Iron Heart/Diamond Mind Warblade is all the samurai we need.

Shyftir
2009-12-19, 07:33 AM
I basically came up with the same opinion myself. Although a PrC that has the samurai feel would be cool.

elliott20
2009-12-19, 10:10 AM
Just a heads up guys. Tomorrow I'm going to be in some place without a computer for a week. But rest assured, I will be checking in later.

DracoDei
2009-12-19, 02:20 PM
Ok, well, on that note let me jot a few things down here for people to give me feed-back on, because this is something that involves all of us.

My contribution to this is Falling Anvil. It is right there in my sig. It is a martial discipline based on Bugs Bunny, Wiley Coyote, and The Three Stooges.

Why should you care? Because I used a rather unique mechanic for getting access to it... any swordsage (or anyone else via Martial Study or Martial stance) can access it any time they like... BUT as soon as they do, they lose access to Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, and maybe one other discipline (I forget and it is not important). Any maneuvers of those disciplines you have are immediately converted to Falling Anvil maneuvers of equal level. That is all very well and good, but it doesn't help with the fact that if you replace all of the disciplines I mentioned by name with homebrew disciplines, you aren't really losing anything... So, since I think my mechanic there is pretty flavorful, I am going to try to come up with a similar percentage of the other homebrew that I can likewise declare "Incompatible".

So:
Incompatible:
Army of One - The Joker not withstanding, I don't really see any discipline based around Intimidate jiving very well with something that draws its power from the primeval forces of comedy.

Black Rain - I am sorry, but Yosemite Sam and Elmer Fudd prove that guns are only good for getting pwned when the power of comedy holds sway.

Black Heron - While I guess you could play on the whole "Jeckle and Hyde" thing for laughs, I don't get that sort of vibe from this. "I feed on your fear" isn't very in tune with "I feed on laughter".

Blood Sage - I am not seeing the errudite nature of the study of anatomy meshing very well with people who strive to become so disorganized that their own internal organs become misplaced (Seriously, I have a maneuver that works that way... it lets you re-roll fortitude saves).

Dread Crown - The only SLIGHTLY funny thing about this discipline that I noticed is "Grasp of the Damned"... and that isn't enough to counter its sadistic aspects.

Narrow Bridge - Death is a downer, and besides, it was invented by monks who DIDN'T go insane in the process, so it must be boring as all get out... I mean monks spend all that time learning to jump really good, and then they don't hardly ever use it to bounce around at random making hooting noises or anything...

Nine-Fold Damnation - Lawful requirement... which actually makes it kinda cheesy to be able to trade in your maneuvers if you change to NE or TN alignment, but whatever...

Way of the Gear - Guns and a fairly gritty game (from what I know) that emphasizes group tactics (a Lawful tendency), with military units (Lawful), make this incompatible, despite the funny names for many of the maneuvers.



Analysis of selected undecideds:
Coins Edge - This feels like it trying to control randomness, rather than moving with it, if that makes any sense...

Kaleidoscopic Dream - Chaos aligned, Limbo, random stuff... but somehow it doesn't quite feel right for a strongly allied discipline... probably compatible, if only by default.

Holy Word - Speaking Truth seems opposite to a discipline based around Bluff... but the 3 Words of Vengence Maneuvers could have a "Three Stooges beating each-other up" vibe to them, and both of them involve "getting the unverse on your side".

Solaris Arcanium - I am thinking "No", but can't really put into words why I am thinking that... seems too "fancy"... too "precise"...



Compatible:
Far Realm - Hey, they both involve going completely out of your mind for the purposes of beating people up! They go together like tentacles and banana creme! Everyone knows that banana creme brings out the subtle aftertastes of tentacles! The newts dwelling in the forbidden chasm have revealed this to us!!!

Fool's Grip - They both involve hitting people with frying pans... good enough for me.

Fortunate Assailant - Any discipline that includes a maneuver called "Your Sock's Untied!" is a kindred spirit to Falling Anvil.

Guilded Fate - The stealth version of having the universe on your side... too bad it is nearly completely unfinished...

Golden Saint - A much more happy discipline than Devoted Spirit (Blade of the Martyr and the two fear inducing maneuvers not withstanding), and obviously compatible with Chaos since an Eladrin was one of the ones to bring it to the material plane. The emphasis on non-lethal damage, and some of the defensive abilities jive well with cartoonish recovery.

Twin Spirit - Compatible by default. Besides if you dump-stat Intellegence and take the right feat, your mount may end up smarter than you, which is always good for some sitcom type humor...

Ocean Soul - Compatible by default.

Ocean Tempest - A bit Chaotic in its feel. "Ride the River" is missing mechanics.



More as I get inspired.

Haven
2009-12-19, 06:10 PM
Heh. If Swordsage recovery didn't bug me so much, I think I would have gone with a character focused on Falling Anvil and Far Realm for the tournie. The hilariously disturbing part is that they actually synergize really well.

DracoDei
2009-12-19, 06:37 PM
The hilariously disturbing part is that they actually synergize really well.
Could you please explain that synergy to me? I have read through Far Realms once or twice in the past, and nothing jumped out at me as far as synergy or lack there-of.

I just made up stuff that looked halfway balanced... the most I have got as far as actually analyzing its strengths and weaknesses is: Well, it has a lot of long range maneuvers, and probably more defensive stuff than any other discipline, but all the defensive stuff has drawbacks to it. In fact, if you focused just on defensive stuff you could be pretty hard to kill quickly. But since you would be putting yourself out of the fight with your own maneuvers, the follow up would be hard to deal with. Oh, and it has a BUNCH of maneuvers and does physical (the "<Heavy Object> Drop"s), Electricity (the "Cloud"s) and fire damage (the "Give <Explosive>"s). And since almost nothing but the capstone doesn't involve dealing any damage (and for that you just have to deal one lousy hitpoint...) you can afford to seriously dumpstat strength if you like.

... Ok, so that is actually a halfway useful block of information I just spat out. But it just sets up the situation, it doesn't actually make any real quantitative statements about balance.

Haven
2009-12-19, 06:56 PM
Could you please explain that synergy to me?


Well, nothing gamebreaking (I think), but the feat that lets you take Far Realm maneuvers also makes you immune to confusion and insanity effects (though you seem to have added something saying that such an immunity means you can't use those moves). Also, using the Fallen Anvil ranged moves is a really good way to activate Widening Gyre (which I think Far Realm has only one way to activate on its own--which probably means I'm missing something really obvious, but eh). And since Far Realm save DCs are all based off Cha, that helps with all those Falling Anvil moves based off of Bluff.

DracoDei
2009-12-19, 08:00 PM
Thank you very much. Those do make sense.

Now that I reread again, Widening Gyre is a very powerful mechanic (or at least poorly written?). For one thing you can chain it each round, even doing full attacks, also, if you have to do something other than melee attacking, it sticks around as written.

Widening Gyre: To use this option, you must make a successful attack against an opponent outside of your threatened area. Your next melee attack may be made against this opponent, regardless of range.

Haven
2009-12-19, 09:03 PM
Thank you very much. Those do make sense.

Now that I reread again, Widening Gyre is a very powerful mechanic (or at least poorly written?). For one thing you can chain it each round, even doing full attacks, also, if you have to do something other than melee attacking, it sticks around as written.

I think the chaining bit should be preserved (because "Widening Gyre"--it gets worse for the enemy the longer it goes on, which is the theme of the tactical feat), but I do agree that it should be rewritten to go away if you don't make use of it in the next round.

Though there's also the fact that unless you use one particular counter (a really good one, but still) from the discipline, you have to have some other source of ranged attack to make use of it.

DracoDei
2009-12-19, 09:37 PM
Melee weapons that can also be thrown come to mind. Plus there are a few strikes from other disciplines (especially Desert Wind, with its AoE "XXX's Flame" maneuvers). For sword-sages you can go with a crossbow...

DracoDei
2009-12-20, 04:07 PM
Was looking through Ocean Soul to determine its compatability with Falling Anvil... I think it is compatable, but I am noticing some editing issues.

"Wavestride" is purely better than Desert Wind's "Wind Stride"... then again, wind-stride strikes me as a pretty weak maneuver....

"Fog Mantle" needs to say "Miss chance" rather than "Concealment Gained" on the table for clarity probably.

The "Wake of the X" maneuvers are probably complex for many people to envision. I recommend posting a picture of with some templates on them if possible... I have taken my best shot at it below, but I am unsure what a 5' cone even looks like in D&D (if the rules are even made to allow it...). Also, the short descriptions make it sound like they discriminate between friend and foe, while the extended descriptions show that they don't.
Attempts at Wake templates:

This only handles vertical or horizontal charges... all templates can be rotated 90 degrees and/or mirror imaged. Will probably add 45 degree diagonals at some point, but I am not making any promises, and even those aren't going to be enough since you might charge to a point 3 squares west and one square south for instance.
I = Initial position of character
F = Final location of character
W = Wake
? = Not sure if a 5' cone actually covers any space in D&D, so TECHNICALLY these squares don't get hit... but maybe they should... it could fall under "not enough momentum built up yet".
S = My desire for better symetry would mean these squares shoult get hit too.
Movements of 5' to 35' (don't think 5' is possible with that maneuver since it requires a charge, but am throwing it in just for reference to show it doesn't do anything in any case)
I|W|I|W|I |W|W|I |W|W| W|I|W| W|W| W|W|I| W| W|W|W| I| W|
F||?||?|| |? | || |?| || | |? | | || | |?
||F||?|| |? | || |?| || | |? | | || | |?
|| ||F||S|W|W||S|W|W|| |S|W|W | || |S|W|W
|| || || |F | ||S|W|W|| S|W|W|W|W||S|W|W|W|W
|| || || | | || |F | || |S|W|W |||S|W|W|W|W
|| || || | | || | | || | |F| ||| |S|W|W
|| || || | | || | | || | | | ||| | |F|

W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|

40' to 55' of movement
W|W|I| W|W| W| W|W|I| W|W| W|W| W|W|I| W|W| W|W| W|W| W|I|W| W|W|
| |? | | | | | |?| | | | | | |?| | | | | | | |?| ||
| |? | | | | | |?| | | | | | |?| | | | | | | |?| ||
|S |W|W| | | |S|W|W| | | | |S|W|W| | | | | |S|W|W||
S|W|W|W|W| |S|W|W|W|W| | |S|W|W|W|W| | | |S|W|W|W|W
S|W|W|W|W| |S|W|W|W|W| | |S|W|W|W|W| | | |S|W|W|W|W
S|W|W|W|W| |S|W|W|W|W| | |S|W|W|W|W| | | |S|W|W|W|W
|S |W|W| | |S|W|W|W|W| |S|A|W|W|W|W|A| |S|A|W|W|W|W|A|
| |F| | | | |S |W |W| | | |S|W|W|W|W| | |S|A|W|W|W|W|A|
| | | | | | | |F | | | | | |S |W|W| | | | |S|W|W|W|W|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |F| | | | | | |S|W|W||
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X | ||

W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|


60' to ??' Feet (coming later)


Diagonals (Assumes you base the cone on the back edge of the ending square, rather than the front one. Note that the initial square DOES get hit by the wake in these cases)
10' (1 diagonal square) to 40' (5 diagonal squares)
I|W| W |I|W |W |W |I |W |W|W |I|W| |W| |I | | | | |W
|F| | |W| | | |W|W| | |W|W|W| | |W|W|W|W
| | | | |F| | |W|W| | |W|W|W| | |W|W|W|W
| | | | | | | | | |F | |W|W|W| | |W|W|W|W
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |F| |W|W|W|W
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |F

W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W| W|W| W| W|


45'(6 diagonal squares) to 60' (8 diagonal squares)
I| | | | | |I | | | | | | |I | | | | | | | |
|W|W|W|W| | |W|W|W|W| | | |W|W|W|W| |
|W|W|W|W|W| |W|W|W|W|W|A| |W|W|W|W| W|A|A|
|W|W|W|W|W| |W|W|W|W|W|W| |W|W|W|W| W|W|A|
|W|W|W|W|W| |W|W|W|W|W|W| |W|W|W|W| W|W|W|
| |W|W|W|W| | |W|W|W|W|W| | |W|W|W| W|W|W|
| | | | | |F | |A|W|W|W|W| | |A|W|W| W|W|W|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |F| |A|A|W| W|W|W|

W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|F|W|W| W| W|

A = This square does not apply to Wake of the Sea Turtle
70'(9 diagonal squares) to ??'(? Diagonal Squares)
I| | | | | | | | |I| | | |
|W|W|W|W| | | | | | | | |
|W|W|W|W|W|A |A|B| | | | | | | | | | |
|W|W|W|W|W|W|A|A| | | | |
|W|W|W|W|W|W|W|A| | | | |
| |W|W|W|W|W|W|W| | | | |
| |A |W|W|W|W|W|W| | | | |
| |A |A |W|W|W|W|W| | | | |
| |B |A |A|W|W|W|W| | | | |
| | | | | | | | |F |
W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|W| W| W|W|F|W|W| W| W|

A = This square does not apply to Wake of the Sea Turtle
B = This square applies only to the Wake of the Whale and the Leviathan


"Wake of the Leviathan" is just a cone behind you at the end of your move basically (unless it is more than 40' in which case it is a rectangle behind that), unless you have something that allows you to turn during a charge. That is worth a note for simplicity, but since such abilities DO exist, it shouldn't be part of the main rule.

"Bite of the Shark" needs to say if it makes your weapon attack secondary, is a secondary attack itself when used with a weapon attack as well, or if you get your full BAB with it, or what.



More as I read more... going to have a shot at those templates...

deuxhero
2009-12-20, 05:41 PM
Black Heron and Dread Crown seem to overlap a bit in fluff. Not to say there can't be two fiendishly originating disciplines, but they are a definite pair of candidates for being "related" in the projects fluff.

I am also fairly sure someone made a martial Samurai. They could choose from archery, mounted and spear to gain an extra discipline (and that is all I recall other than it was posted here).

ErrantX
2009-12-20, 08:39 PM
Black Heron and Dread Crown seem to overlap a bit in fluff. Not to say there can't be two fiendishly originating disciplines, but they are a definite pair of candidates for being "related" in the projects fluff.

Personally, I don't see it. Dread Crown originated from two incredibly potent outsiders from the Lower Planes, Black Heron originated from possessing fiends channeling their wrath through a mortal vessel. I can see how one of said fiends might know Dread Crown as well, but they are mutually exclusive in my mind. I need to make some more classes that utilize Black Heron, and a monster or two that use it to help it along. The Kazarzeth alone isn't cutting it.

Also, why are we trying to make the ludicrous Falling Anvil discipline fit with everything?

-X

pyrefiend
2009-12-20, 08:47 PM
Also, why are we trying to make the ludicrous Falling Anvil discipline fit with everything?

I'd say Draco is doing the opposite, i.e. finding components of the project that are incompatible with Falling Anvil.

DracoDei
2009-12-20, 09:05 PM
As far as the history is concerned, I consider that it is already fitted in for any particular campaign that a GM choses to include it in.

The "compatible/incompatible" thing is just which disciplines you can also know maneuvers of while knowing Falling Anvil maneuvers. It has NOTHING to do with what things it can exist in the same SETTING with.

EDIT: As for why anyone would use it, all I will say for the moment is that I have had more than one reaction of "I want to PLAY that", so regardless of the specific reasons, people do want to play it. Or did you mean why a CHARACTER would want to pursue it?

pyrefiend
2009-12-20, 09:21 PM
Not to knock Draco or anything, as I know how hard it is to come up with a discipline that's not like any of the others (harder still with all the homebrews out there!) but I guess I just don't understand why anyone would fight like Bugs friggin' Bunny in D&D and call it fun. Or why it needs to be compatible or incompatible with anything. Just my 2 cents.

-X

Well, OK. This might be thinking about it too much, and DracoDei is free to Joss me, of course, but this is how I see it.

Falling Anvil can be a reasonable part of an otherwise non-silly campaign if you consider it to be the functional opposite of the Far Realms discipline. Both are based on insanity and a lack of logic, but whereas the general mood of Far Realms is darker-than-black, Falling Anvil is super-bleached-white. Far Realms isolates the concept from the player, as the fluff is that it's power source is completely incomprehensible and alien. Falling Anvil, on the other hand, does the opposite: introducing concepts to the player that don't make any sense to the characters themselves! Neither make any sense, and so Falling Anvil is, in a way, no less fitting than Far Realms.

You might even say that the "Far Realms" of Falling Anvil is the real world, as the concept would be just as bizarre to the characters.

DracoDei
2009-12-20, 09:41 PM
Well, OK. This might be thinking about it too much, and DracoDei is free to Joss me, of course, but this is how I see it.

Falling Anvil can be a reasonable part of an otherwise non-silly campaign...
That would never have even occurred to me... While I think you may have something there, I would have assumed that if you were going to include it the GM would also have other humorous (or at least meta-referencing, such as setting the whole thing in Oz or having monsters from specific horror movies as enemies), elements to it. Both the inestimable Vorpal Tribble and myself have created pun-based monsters, and those would be very at home in a campaign that included Falling Anvil to my way of thinking.

...if you consider it to be the functional opposite of the Far Realms discipline. Both are based on insanity and a lack of logic, but whereas the general mood of Far Realms is darker-than-black, Falling Anvil is super-bleached-white. Far Realms isolates the concept from the player, as the fluff is that it's power source is completely incomprehensible and alien. Falling Anvil, on the other hand, does the opposite: introducing concepts to the player that don't make any sense to the characters themselves! Neither make any sense, and so Falling Anvil is, in a way, no less fitting than Far Realms.

You might even say that the "Far Realms" of Falling Anvil is the real world, as the concept would be just as bizarre to the characters.
Again, this is a very interesting take, and any thoughts I might have to the contrary are NOT Jossing you, just proposing another, equally valid, option. My own thoughts were simply along the lines of the MST3K mantra...


Also: I have added some templates for the "Wake of the X" maneuvers from Ocean Soul to one of my earlier posts since I made it.

EDIT: Corrected some stuff about my templates (the maximum size of some of the cones for the lower level maneuvers was smaller than I thought it was), and glanced at Ocean Tempest. Ocean Tempest looks compatible, but I also noticed that the mechanics for "Ride the River" are still missing.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-21, 02:40 AM
Wow, it appears like the very fabric of DracoDei's discipline is under fire 0_0. As far as I'm concerned, Falling Anvil has just as much place in the setting as anything else does; as far as connections go, it has a fairly strong one in Far Realms should Draco choose to joss it, and there are PLENTY of examples where people see something and go "I want to play that." Monks were born from the "I want to play that" of oriental martial arts, and I think its safe to say that the Falling Anvil discipline is in a better place mechanics wise then the poor, old Monk :).

I do salute you though, Draco. I kinda wish all of MY morales and ideas regarding my discipline (Solaris Arcanum) came under fire :D. You are a lucky one to warrant such attention ^_^.

DracoDei
2009-12-21, 03:48 AM
Heh. If Swordsage recovery didn't bug me so much, I think I would have gone with a character focused on Falling Anvil and Far Realm for the tournie. The hilariously disturbing part is that they actually synergize really well.

Well, if you feel like being cheesy, you could make a warblade who took a bunch of White Raven and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and then went nuts (Martial Study or Martial Stance for something from Falling Anvil) and all those maneuvers converted to Falling Anvil maneuvers of equal level...

Haven
2009-12-21, 03:56 AM
Well, if you feel like being cheesy, you could make a warblade who took a bunch of White Raven and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and then went nuts (Martial Study or Martial Stance for something from Falling Anvil) and all those maneuvers converted to Falling Anvil maneuvers of equal level...

...Ooh! I forgot that's how it works.

Say, I could actually do that with my crusader if I had given up Devoted Spirit instead of White Raven for Far Realm. Hmmm.

DracoDei
2009-12-21, 04:23 AM
Devoted Spirit is ALSO "incompatible" with Falling Anvil, so you still could... you just wouldn't have any Devoted Spirit Maneuvers.


EDIT: Also, I have a PrC to contribute the True Master of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121583)(already designed with homebrew disciplines in mind). I can't believe I didn't mention it before...
EDIT^2: Which is already in the listing on the first page, so it is probably beside the point except to formally say "Yes, you can include it in the project".

Nero24200
2009-12-21, 05:47 AM
@Draco
Have you ever looked at the Grey Jesters in Heroes of Horror? If you're playing in a more serious campaign, I could still see this type of discipline working for a creature like that. In fact, if you made a creature for that discipline (similer to the chain devil for that grappiling discipline) it would make alot of sense, and if done right could make for a particularly chilling encounter.

For those unfamilier with Grey Jesters, they're evil fey that feed off of emotions. In combat, they try to use Tasha's Hideous Laughter to make your characters laugh, then spend the next few rounds draining their charisma (since they can only do it to characters that are laughing).

DracoDei
2009-12-21, 06:14 AM
Hadn't heard of Grey Jesters before, no...

Given my tastes I am much more likely to stat out my friend, Pastor Oren Otter's, rubber chicken wielding Angel character Vlax...

ErrantX
2009-12-21, 07:11 AM
Meh, whatever, I'll look like the jerk then :smallsmile: I just dislike the discipline because it doesn't fit with any aspect of D&D at all. Ever. But that's just my opinion. To each their own. Kudos to you for having people who like it.

I will pipe back in at a later time when we're not discussing this discipline.

-X

DracoDei
2009-12-21, 04:49 PM
Here are some tables I generated while researching for Falling Anvil. I will probably be adding some of the homebrew disciplines. I don't know if these are useful numbers to be measuring, but they should be of some use... the number of maneuvers at each level gives a vague idea of how versitile a discipline is, whereas the pre-requisites give an idea of how much dedication it takes.

{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Desert Wind|Stone Dragon| Tiger Claw | Setting Sun|Shadow Hand|Diamond Mind|Iron Heart|White Raven|Devoted Spirit|Man Lev
1| 0 | 0 |0-1(MOST 1!)| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |1
2| 0-1 | 0 | 0 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 0 | 1 | 0 |2
3| 0-1 | 0-1 | 1-2 | 1 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |3
4| 1-2 | 0-2 | 1-2 | 1-2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |4
5| 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0-2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 1 |5
6| 2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |6
7| 3 | 2-3 | 2-3 | 3 | 0!? | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 |7
8| 3 | 2-3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0-3 | 2-3 | 1-3 | 2-3 |8
9| 5 | !!??0??!! | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 |9[/Table]

Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Desert Wind|Stone Dragon| Tiger Claw | Setting Sun|Shadow Hand|Diamond Mind|Iron Heart|White Raven|Devoted Spirit|Anvil|Man Lev
1| 5 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 7 |1
2| 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 |2
3| 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 6 |3
4| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5 |4
5| 3 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 5* | 4 |5
6| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5* | 4 |6
7| 2 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5 |7
8| 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 |8
9| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |9[/Table]
*Alignment Based (so you can take, at most, 2 of 4 very similar maneuvers).

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-21, 05:01 PM
For the record, its Devoted Spirit, not Devoted Defender:smallwink:

DracoDei
2009-12-22, 12:26 AM
Fixed the name problem... have an idea for an Epic magic item related to the Sublime way.

More tables(incomplete, but usuable). Might put them all together in one post so people will have less of a distance to scroll up and down to get each maneuver after I get a bunch together...((And yes, I know it is The Way of THE Gear, but it that would mess up the spacing in the text file I am working in...))
Prerequisite Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Army of One |Black Heron| Black Rain| Far Realm |Lost Lyrics|Narrow Bridge|Sola. Arcan.|Twin Spirit|Way of Gear|Man Lev
1| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0-1 | 0 | 0 |1
2| 0 | | 0 | | | | 0-1 | | |2
3| 1 | | 0-1 | | | | 1 | | |3
4| 1 | | 1-2 | | | | 2-3 | | |4
5| 1 | | 2 | | | | 0-2 | | |5
6| 2 | | 0-2 | | | | 2-3 | | |6
7| 3 | | 3 | | | | 0,3 | | |7
8| 3 | | 3-4 | | | | 0,4 | | |8
9| 4 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |9[/Table]

Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Army of One |Black Heron| Black Rain| Far Realm |Lost Lyrics|Narrow Bridge|Sola. Arcan.|Twin Spirit|Way of Gear|Man Lev
1| 5 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |1
2| 4 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |2
3| 4 | | 3 | | | | 3 | | |3
4| 4 | | 2 | | | | 3 | | |4
5| 3 | | 2 | | | | 3 | | |5
6| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |6
7| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |7
8| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |8
9| 1 | | 1 | | | | 1 | | |9[/Table]
*Alignment Based (so you can take, at most, 2 of 4 very similar maneuvers).

Golden-Esque
2009-12-22, 03:33 AM
So if I'm understanding this right, the top chart lists how many maneuvers at the given level require a prerequisite, while the bottom lists how many maneuvers there are at that level period?

DracoDei
2009-12-22, 03:48 AM
A pair of typoes, if they are typoes... but important that I check: "...how many maneuvers maneuvers at the given level require AS prerequisite..."

With that correction, I you have it right...

DragoonWraith
2009-12-22, 11:34 AM
The prerequisites on some of the 1st level Tiger Claw maneuvers is one of the dumbest things in ToB, I think. That just shouldn't happen.

Anyway, I made similar charts when working on Chthonic Serpent, with a breakdown of the number of Strikes, Boosts, Counters, and Stances at each level of each Discipline. I'll post that when United Airlines returns my desktop to me.

Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?

Haven
2009-12-22, 12:10 PM
Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?

I agree, actually. Far Realm has a similar problem (further proof that they are twins?), specifically that it requires a feat to access instead of the training system. But that's not the only benefit the feat gives, so it probably wouldn't break its intended balance too much if we subjected it to the training system and standardized that across all the disciplines.

DracoDei
2009-12-22, 12:44 PM
Anyway, I made similar charts when working on Chthonic Serpent, with a breakdown of the number of Strikes, Boosts, Counters, and Stances at each level of each Discipline. I'll post that when United Airlines returns my desktop to me.
That will be good I think.

Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?
I am afraid you may be right mechanically. HOWEVER, the reasons I like it is BECAUSE of the way it works in-character. Often times in cartoons you will have a very staid character who finally reaches a breaking point and starts doing completely ridiculous things which radically alters the physics of the way that character operates... the idea is that focus can not exist in the same mind as lunacy (Diamond Mind), fanatical devotion to a cause can't cohabit with the relaxed flow that lets the universe take care of you (Devoted Spirit), fury is a mutually exclusive emotion to laughter(Tiger Claw), and leading someone is a very different relationship from entertaining them AKA Marines have NO sense of humor (White Raven) etc etc etc.

Mechanically it might be improved if already having X maneuvers of Falling Anvil added it to your disciplines for all classes. That way you can have your Crusader "snap" at 10th level, and not be so limited to only Stone Dragon maneuvers for effective combat tactics at 16th...

Part of my reasoning is/was that I actually consider it "a discipline and a half" due to the large number of maneuvers and extreme diversity of options it grants. Thus, losing only a single discipline to access it seem(s/ed) to me to be overpowered.

On balance I am going to suggest making my personal mechanic (whatever it turns out to be) an optional rule.

The Demented One
2009-12-22, 01:10 PM
That would never have even occurred to me... While I think you may have something there, I would have assumed that if you were going to include it the GM would also have other humorous (or at least meta-referencing, such as setting the whole thing in Oz or having monsters from specific horror movies as enemies), elements to it. Both the inestimable Vorpal Tribble and myself have created pun-based monsters, and those would be very at home in a campaign that included Falling Anvil to my way of thinking.
Yeah, I honestly see it as being a very niche-y campaign that Falling Anvil would fit into. Have you considered doing it, should a pdf ever come out of this, as an appendix?

DracoDei
2009-12-22, 01:32 PM
If you mean the discipline itself, that would be up to Elliot20, or whoever is in charge of formatting. Personally I would prefer it to be in with all the rest, just with a rather prominent note at the top of it regarding what sorts of campaigns it is suitable for. In timelines and such just writing it as "Falling Anvil(Humorous)", might suffice. There are, of course, advantages and disadvantages to each method, so in the end I leave it to the wisdom of the formatters (with input from everyone else).

If on the other hand, you mean would I feel like writing up a campaign setting specially made to incorporate it and other such humorous works, the answer is that I don't think I would be very good at it by myself.

Haven
2009-12-22, 02:36 PM
Hey guys, just a reminder--there's a playtest tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135300) for the material we've got so far, if anyone's interested in participating. :o

Debihuman
2009-12-22, 05:57 PM
I realize that I'm getting into the debate here rather late, but it strikes me that there are two ways of looking at the expansion either to be inclusive and include Falling Anvil because it is another variation on the rules, or to be exclusive and exclude Falling Anvil because it doesn't fit the Age of Warriors theme.

Generally, I am all for the inclusive approach. Unfortunately, there is a matter of game balance in addition to appropriateness. I'm not familiar enough with Tome of Battle maneuvers to start judging whether these additions are balanced, appropriate, or fun to play.

Furthermore, there is the sticking point of whether there is a place for humor in a "serious" expansion book. WotC's approach was always that they weren't good at doing humor not that they were opposed to it. See the "Why We're Not Funny" article in their archives if you want the details.

Rather than to step on anyone's toes, would it a bad thing if Falling Anvil were put into an appendix at the end or if notations were made throughout about how to fit it in among the other maneuvers?

Debby

Haven
2009-12-22, 06:13 PM
I think making a note to the effect of "If you feel the tone of the fluff is not appropriate for your game, consider renaming some of the maneuvers and rebranding the discipline's lore as supernatural reality-warping martial arts" might suffice. Mechanically speaking, it's just another discipline along the lines of Desert Wind.

ErrantX
2009-12-22, 06:27 PM
Personally, I feel that Falling Anvil does -not- fit the theme of the Age of Warriors; I'm a huge fan of keeping it simple and straightforward. I like that sourcebooks don't include humor; they leave it to the professionals and instead focus on what the do know and that's their supplement. If it was included as an appendix in the supplement, then that would be great. It can have it's whole shiny chapter devoted to it.

If the overall consensus is that Falling Anvil should be included in the lore for this netbook in all seriousness, I'd prefer that you leave my work out of it. No offense to you DracoDei, but to all of you if we're not going to take putting this together seriously then I'd prefer my work not be mingled in with it. I take my work seriously enough to keep it straightforward like any WotC product.

Nothing personal, just how I feel on the matter.

-X

DracoDei
2009-12-22, 07:50 PM
To be clear, I personally* think that it should be made as easy as possible for a GM to run the setting both with and without Falling Anvil. Whatever format makes that happen the best is what I am in favor of. That may be an appendix, it may not. Such formatting and psychological matters are not my forte. I realize that might be a trickier task to pull off than doing the same thing for Black Rain (as firearms are also not part of the usual concept of D&D), but I have every confidence that the Playground is up to the task.

*I don't pretend to speak for everyone who has spoken up in favor of the discipline.

Errant-X: I would like to say however, that it seems to me that you are may be making an assumption that I am not a "professional" at humor by this project's standards of "professional".

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-22, 08:08 PM
On a sheer outsider's point of view, including humour in a game book without making the whole thing silly is pointless and distracting.

It's one of the reasons that i don't like Frank Trollman's work, his humour is, to my mind, horrible and unfunny.

As an additional, discreet chapter, perhaps called "Wage or Wurriers" or something, preferably formatted so that it's off kilter on the page, I think it might work nicely as a completely seperate thing; complete with notes on a silly campaign and some monsters that are totally stupid.

The other way would probably lead to a bleed in the rest of the book, which will lead to some people not wanting to read whole sections because they don't find it funny.

ErrantX
2009-12-22, 08:20 PM
Thank you Mulletmanalive for putting it into words better than I was able to. If it's kept completely separate from the whole of it and attached to back as an appendix on crazy weird stuff, that's fine. Comingling Falling Anvil with the rest I feel detracts from the rest.

-X

pyrefiend
2009-12-22, 11:05 PM
Devoted Spirit is ALSO "incompatible" with Falling Anvil, so you still could... you just wouldn't have any Devoted Spirit Maneuvers. I don't see why. I once played a totally insane crusader. I took the chaos-themed maneuvers and fluffed that my "devotion" was fueled by madness- madmen can make great zealots.

Comingling Falling Anvil with the rest I feel detracts from the rest. I think perhaps we are taking this all a tad too seriously. This PDF, after all, is not going to be sold. It exists to showcase our work. Falling Anvil is not suitable for all campaigns, and there should be a note explaining as such, but the idea that it must be separate from all other disciplines is silly. It has as much value as the rest of them.

ErrantX
2009-12-22, 11:28 PM
It doesn't tie in the way the rest of the homebrew disciplines do however, and if we're trying to fit them into the over arching theme and lore of the Temple of the Nine Swords and the era of Reshar, then actually we do need to exclude Falling Anvil.

It just doesn't fit. If we're just making a catalog; fine. Include it. But if we're actually going to write fluff into this book about the inception of those that came before, during, and after the age of Reshar and his Temple, then I think we need to consider moving Falling Anvil to it's own special appendix at the end with a label that says, "Not for serious use, Doc."

-X

DracoDei
2009-12-23, 12:35 AM
If so, then that appendix would need to say what the modifications to the history etc are.

Just as brainstorming for other alternatives to make sure we are not limiting our options:
1.) Sidebars.
2.) Color Differences (Think "Red Letter Bible", where they have the words of Christ in Red).
3.) Footnotes combined with any of the above (including the Appendix).

Bhu
2009-12-23, 05:25 AM
You can always present all the disciplines and let the individual DM's decide. Thats what they're going to do anyway. Rare is the campaign I've played thats stayed absolutely true to the source material without any fudging according to the DM's personal tastes.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-23, 07:52 AM
I suggested previously a slightly off kilter editing. Certainly possible if you're using InDesign or even Publisher.

Add to that some Loony Toons writing in the titles and maybe have Renshar's words in bad typewriter font...

For reference, I don't actually consider Falling Anvil any sillier on a straight line than some of the other disciplines. I mean, there are disciplines here that seem to produce water, distort reality and cause the user to grow tentacles. Why is a discipline that causes stuff to fall from the sky and produces phantasms in the target's mind any different really?

I do, however, feel that there's a risk of humour bleed and unless the whole book is silly [not totally inappropriate considering what you can actually do compared to Fantasy Protagonists in books] then it would be best kept clear of the rest of the content, lest bad or at least mono-target humour creeps throughout like blight.

I'm actually less worried about Draco as I am about the rest of us, frankly.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-23, 01:59 PM
I don't know how much it is necessary to set Falling Anvil apart. I agree with ErrantX, it doesn't fit, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be excluded. I also don't think that just because it's humorous means it can't be professional, or taken seriously.

Lord_Gareth
2009-12-23, 03:04 PM
For reference, I don't actually consider Falling Anvil any sillier on a straight line than some of the other disciplines. I mean, there are disciplines here that seem to produce water, distort reality and cause the user to grow tentacles. Why is a discipline that causes stuff to fall from the sky and produces phantasms in the target's mind any different really?

Really, it's all in the flavor. Saying that the discipline makes you grow tentacles is one thing; reading through the whole discipline and realizing that it turns you into a horrid, inhuman monster is a wholly different thing.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-23, 04:29 PM
You say potato, i say soup ingredient...

I'm a fan of Hong Kong movies and aside from the giggling and the fact that the anvil materialises from nowhere, it doesn't seem all that far removed from the post-Jackie Chan stuff.

Given the fact that there's already precident for Olidramma from the basic lineup of gods doing things that seem like they're taking the wee wee [the Vestige being an example], it could just be tied to him and left up in the air.

That said, i am a proponent of appendixing it or possibly saving it for a pure humour publication, simply because a) i feel the rest of the book will be more readable when played straight, rather than coloured by others trying to wedge in a funny and b) because I think it deserves to shine as the masterpiece of light-heartedness that it is.

Seriously, this was a breath of fresh air after months of "this isn't powerful enough compared to the Wizard." It deserves it's own place to shine

DracoDei
2009-12-23, 09:15 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that it should be excluded completely. The MOST I hear people saying as I scroll back through the part of the thread that is showing while I type this is that it should be in an appendix. If that is what the people who know page-layouts say would work best I would be happy to go with that, provided that it included how the history etc of the world is modified by its addition.

ErrantX
2009-12-23, 10:43 PM
How would history need to be modified for Falling Anvil's inclusion? Reshar went on a bender one weekend with a whacked out anthropomorphic rabbit named Bugs and learned a few tricks he wouldn't tell anyone about? :P

But in all seriousness, how would 'history' need to be modified?

-X

DracoDei
2009-12-23, 11:02 PM
Good grief... my footnote ended up longer than the main part of my response... which is perfectly fine I guess.

I am not sure of the details... we know its origins (a mental illness linked to knowledge of the Sublime way*, and someone suggested Olihammara(sp?) may have been involved). I am just saying that whatever impacts it DOES end up logically having need to be spelled out somewhere, rather than just throwing out the discipline itself without noting how it interacts with other stuff... we can't know what that in is going very much detail to be until we get the general history etc more nailed down.


*Thus while you could be "taught" it, most of its practitioners just "caught" it spontaneously under the stresses of their training regime. Intentional apprenticing in it would consist as much of mutual prank wars outside the practice ring as it would combat inside it. Weapon drills would be almost non-existent I should think, and meditation is replaced by hitting the local comedy clubs (or seeking out a bard with ranks in Perform(Comedy) or whatever the setting contains instead of comedy clubs). The "history" might be limited to what the Temple of the Nine Swords' policy was on students who came down with it (expelled? Discouraged from practicing? allowed to practice, but only with eachother, to control the risk of it spreading(whether or not I decide that is actually possible, based on the advice of others)? Allowed to develop it publicly, but since it wasn't "taught", and very few of the high grade students who made the pilgrimage to be accepted ended up with it it was never counted among the nine?).

EDIT: At this time I am thinking I will entirely avoid any mention of anthropomorphic animals in relation to Falling Anvil... it seems an unnecessary element to me... a trio of Swordsages named Larry, Curly, and Moe on the other hand MIGHT show up as example characters. And perhaps a pair of archenemy Rogue/Sword Sages (or martial initiating rogues), one who wears all black, and the other all white (if anyone gives me the necessary pointers to add Spy vs Spy to the mix).