Grappling Feats

[Rasman]

Well, after finishing an encounter last night, my Pathfinder Monk ended up at 7th level and thus ended up with 3 feats. (I have to change one of my old feats because of a prereq that I didn't realize I didn't meet) I've decided, for ****s and giggles, that I'm going to be a grapple fiend, due to the fact that I basically took apart a CR13 Frost Giant singlehandedly at level 5. (Ok, not entirely true, I held him down and let everyone beat on him, but I had it under control, honest.) I've taken Greater Grappling thus far, but I'm one regular feat and one Monk specific feat short right now. What are some good grappling feats I could look at? Pretty much ALL books are allowed so long as I approve the feat with our DM.

The Monk feats I can take are Catch Off-Guard, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Scorpion Style, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Feint, Improved Trip and Mobility.

My current feats are Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Sand Dancer (Sandstorm), Scorpion's Grapple (Sandstorm), and Pharaoh's Fist (Sandstorm).

[Keld Denar]

Not really grappling feats, per say, but Martial Stance and Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra are pretty strong for a grappler. Martial Stance gets you Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance, which is essentially constrict, while Shape Soulmeld allows you to take the Kraken Mantle Soulmeld, and Open Lesser Chakra opens your Arms chakra, which, when you bind Kraken Mantle to it, gives you constrict.

Constrict is a really important ability for grapplers. It allows you to inflict your UAS damage to your grappled foe every time you win a grapple check. Want to move the grapple? CONSTRICT! Want to pin your foe? CONSTRICT! Foe tries to escape, but fails? CONSTRICT! Its good fun.

Martial Stance is in Tome of Battle, and requires Martial Study for any Stone Dragon maneuver, while Kraken Mantle is in Magic of Incarnum along with nearly all the other soulmeld goodness.

[Rasman]

Not really grappling feats, per say, but Martial Stance and Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra are pretty strong for a grappler. Martial Stance gets you Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance, which is essentially constrict, while Shape Soulmeld allows you to take the Kraken Mantle Soulmeld, and Open Least Chakra opens your Arms chakra, which, when you bind Kraken Mantle to it, gives you constrict.

Constrict is a really important ability for grapplers. It allows you to inflict your UAS damage to your grappled foe every time you win a grapple check. Want to move the grapple? CONSTRICT! Want to pin your foe? CONSTRICT! Foe tries to escape, but fails? CONSTRICT! Its good fun.

Martial Stance is in Tome of Battle, and requires Martial Study for any Stone Dragon maneuver, while Kraken Mantle is in Magic of Incarnum along with nearly all the other soulmeld goodness.

I was originally looking at going Swordsage after 5th level, so I REALLY looked at Tome of Battle a lot, but after our last encounter, I REALLY want to just go full Pathfinder Monk for my first game. This might actually be worth taking though, for two feats anyway. But, just to make sure, I have to take Martial Study and THEN Martial Stance to get this, right?

EDIT: You already answered that question...I'm pretty Drain Bead right now...

In regards to the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats, this effectively means my "level" for this would equal 3 at level 7 monk, right?

[Keld Denar]

Correct. Your Initiator Level would be 7/2 =3 with rounding down. Any feat you took at level 6 or 7 (I dunno if you get feats at 7 with PF?) would allow you to grab a 2nd level maneuver if you met the prereqs. Mountain Hammer would be a good choice, as it would allow you put punch through solid walls over time due to completely ignoring Hardness and DR. It doesn't have any prereqs.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain is a 3rd level stance though, so you would need an IL of 5 (10 levels of a non-IL class) in order to qualify.

Kraken Mantle wouldn't be available until level 12, as you can take Open Lesser Chakra until then and thus wouldn't have an Arm Chakra to bind it to. You could grab Shape Soulmeld now though, and get swim speed, which is pretty cool. Open Lesser Chakra(Arms) also gives a +2 unnamed bonus on grapple checks.

The biggest difference is that Crushing Weight of the Mountain, like all Stone Dragon manevuers, can only work while you are touching the ground. Kraken Mantle has no such restrictions, so you can get your constrict damage while swimming or flying, or on planes like the Astral Plane, that have no physical substance

[Rasman]

Correct. Your Initiator Level would be 7/2 =3 with rounding down. Any feat you took at level 6 or 7 (I dunno if you get feats at 7 with PF?) would allow you to grab a 2nd level maneuver if you met the prereqs. Mountain Hammer would be a good choice, as it would allow you put punch through solid walls over time due to completely ignoring Hardness and DR. It doesn't have any prereqs.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain is a 3rd level stance though, so you would need an IL of 5 (10 levels of a non-IL class) in order to qualify.

Kraken Mantle wouldn't be available until level 12, as you can take Open Lesser Chakra until then and thus wouldn't have an Arm Chakra to bind it to. You could grab Shape Soulmeld now though, and get swim speed, which is pretty cool. Open Lesser Chakra(Arms) also gives a +2 unnamed bonus on grapple checks.

The biggest difference is that Crushing Weight of the Mountain, like all Stone Dragon manevuers, can only work while you are touching the ground. Kraken Mantle has no such restrictions, so you can get your constrict damage while swimming or flying, or on planes like the Astral Plane, that have no physical substance

well, I get another feat at 9th level and I get another bonus feat at 10 from PF Monk, so I could hold the manuver and stance until then if I wanted it that badly. My math is bad at this hour, I thought I could take a 3rd level manuver and was REALLY looking at Bone Crusher for the extra 4d6 and the bonus on crits.

The extra 2d6 is nice, I suppose, for a close second, especially since I can use it on inanimate objects, otherwise though, I don't think I'll really get any benefit from this until at least 11th level.

[Darrin]

Kraken Mantle wouldn't be available until level 12, as you can take Open Lesser Chakra until then and thus wouldn't have an Arm Chakra to bind it to. You could grab Shape Soulmeld now though, and get swim speed, which is pretty cool. Open Lesser Chakra(Arms) also gives a +2 unnamed bonus on grapple checks.


There's also the Girallon Arms soulmeld, adds +2 competence bonus to grapple checks, and if you can get ahold of essentia, you can pump this up to +6 or +8 fairly easily.



The biggest difference is that Crushing Weight of the Mountain, like all Stone Dragon manevuers, can only work while you are touching the ground.


That's not correct. Only Stone Dragon *maneuvers* require you to be on the ground. A stance isn't considered a maneuver (unless you're using it as a prereq). Crushing Weight of the Mountain is one of the few Stone Dragon stances that doesn't have the usual Stone Dragon restrictions, so you can use it anywhere, regardless of whether you moved more than 5' or not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lords of Madness has Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs (+2 grapple), which is a prerequisite for Deepspawn (another +2 grapple) in that same book. You need to have at least one other aberrant feat to get Deepspawn, I'd probably go for Inhuman Reach. Another option would be to take Warped Mind and use that instead of Wild Talent to qualify for Psionic Fist. That will get you powers like Expansion and Grip of Iron, and you can pick up Practiced Manifester to better augment them sooner.

[PhoenixRivers]

Correct. Your Initiator Level would be 7/2 =3 with rounding down. Any feat you took at level 6 or 7 (I dunno if you get feats at 7 with PF?) would allow you to grab a 2nd level maneuver if you met the prereqs. Mountain Hammer would be a good choice, as it would allow you put punch through solid walls over time due to completely ignoring Hardness and DR. It doesn't have any prereqs.Check your book again. I do believe Mountain Hammer has a target that is "One creature". So unless that wall is an animated object, no dice on ignoring its hardness.

Otherwise, your post was spot on, though.

[Rasman]

Check your book again. I do believe Mountain Hammer has a target that is "One creature". So unless that wall is an animated object, no dice on ignoring its hardness.

Otherwise, your post was spot on, though.

it says "or unattended object"

[Xenogears]

it says "or unattended object"

Too bad DnD worlds tend to be riddled with "guardians of the earth" type characters who are ""attending" the earth...

[Zom B]

Since you're grappling creatures larger than yourself, might want to look at Clever Wrestling from Complete Warrior. While you're in that book, may want to look at the feat list. There's a bit of stuff in there for grappling, IIRC.

[Person_Man]

Whether you get them via feats or multi-classing, Soulmelds and Maneuvers are definitely the way to go. You might also want to look into some method of increasing your size/reach/damage as well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). In particular, I think Warmind for access to Sweeping Strike and Expansion would work well. If you happen to be a Changeling then Warshaper is also a good choice.

You might also want to consider Combat Focus -> Combat Vigor -> Combat Stability (all PHBII, though you might not qualify for all of them yet given your level) for +4 Will Save, Fast Healing 3, and +8 to resist any special attack (Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, etc). If an enemy wants to break a Grapple against you, they need to make a Grapple check. Thus you are resisting their attack. Though this does nothing to help you initiate Grapples, it pretty much prevents any enemy from ever breaking a Grapple once you've made one. And given your current build, that shouldn't be hard. It also adds other excellent defenses, rounding out your build somewhat.

And now that I think about that, I'm also going to give some counter intuitive advice and say that you should stop optimizing Grapple at some point, and move on to another combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026). You're pretty optimized for fighting 1 powerful enemy. Now find some way to fight lots of mooks and mini-bosses - good defense, Fear effects, extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), and maybe a good area of effect attack if you can find one.

[Darrin]

Whether you get them via feats or multi-classing, Soulmelds and Maneuvers are definitely the way to go. You might also want to look into some method of increasing your size/reach/damage as well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). In particular, I think Warmind for access to Sweeping Strike and Expansion would work well.


Another psionic power with an enhancement bonus to grapple: Grip of Iron. A two-level dip into Psychic Warrior, Warmind, or Ardent (Law mantle) would allow you to pick this up along with Expansion. Grip of Iron also takes an immediate action to activate, so you can activate it in the same round as Expansion. +8 bonus on grapple checks for only 2 power points.

If your DM allows you to take Hidden Talent instead of Wild Talent (EXH p. 67), you can pick up one of those powers along with 2 PP without multiclassing.

Oh, and there's another soulmeld I forgot to mention: Sphynx Claws gives you a +1 competence bonus (+1 per essentia) on Strength checks (which would include Grapple checks). This would stack with the Kraken Mantle, but not Girallon Arms. However, at ECL 6 you can pick up Open Least Chakra and bind the Sphynx Claws to your hands, which gives you pounce with all your natural weapons (i.e., awesomesauce for monks).

[Rasman]

Whether you get them via feats or multi-classing, Soulmelds and Maneuvers are definitely the way to go. You might also want to look into some method of increasing your size/reach/damage as well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). In particular, I think Warmind for access to Sweeping Strike and Expansion would work well. If you happen to be a Changeling then Warshaper is also a good choice.

You might also want to consider Combat Focus -> Combat Vigor -> Combat Stability (all PHBII, though you might not qualify for all of them yet given your level) for +4 Will Save, Fast Healing 3, and +8 to resist any special attack (Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, etc). If an enemy wants to break a Grapple against you, they need to make a Grapple check. Thus you are resisting their attack. Though this does nothing to help you initiate Grapples, it pretty much prevents any enemy from ever breaking a Grapple once you've made one. And given your current build, that shouldn't be hard. It also adds other excellent defenses, rounding out your build somewhat.

And now that I think about that, I'm also going to give some counter intuitive advice and say that you should stop optimizing Grapple at some point, and move on to another combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026). You're pretty optimized for fighting 1 powerful enemy. Now find some way to fight lots of mooks and mini-bosses - good defense, Fear effects, extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), and maybe a good area of effect attack if you can find one.


I've been thinking about the "I can't always just beat down on one guy" thing for a bit. I'm thinking that I want to try and work my way to Whirlwind Attack OR possibly the Power Attack > Cleave > Greater Cleave chain.

Stances and such look like a ton of fun. I'm just having a hard time picking though them, atm, since I can only take level 1 Stances and level 2 Moves...sigh...limited...


Another psionic power with an enhancement bonus to grapple: Grip of Iron. A two-level dip into Psychic Warrior, Warmind, or Ardent (Law mantle) would allow you to pick this up along with Expansion. Grip of Iron also takes an immediate action to activate, so you can activate it in the same round as Expansion. +8 bonus on grapple checks for only 2 power points.

If your DM allows you to take Hidden Talent instead of Wild Talent (EXH p. 67), you can pick up one of those powers along with 2 PP without multiclassing.

Oh, and there's another soulmeld I forgot to mention: Sphynx Claws gives you a +1 competence bonus (+1 per essentia) on Strength checks (which would include Grapple checks). This would stack with the Kraken Mantle, but not Girallon Arms. However, at ECL 6 you can pick up Open Least Chakra and bind the Sphynx Claws to your hands, which gives you pounce with all your natural weapons (i.e., awesomesauce for monks).

the problem with dipping is that I can't just dip into a PrC because our DM houseruled that you HAVE to finish a PrC if you take it. Sucks, but I kinda understand why he's doing it for this campaign.

[Darrin]

the problem with dipping is that I can't just dip into a PrC because our DM houseruled that you HAVE to finish a PrC if you take it. Sucks, but I kinda understand why he's doing it for this campaign.

Yes, I think you mentioned the Monk 20 thing to start with, which is why I was suggesting feats (which, admittedly, you don't get enough of). Shape Soulmeld, Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra, Hidden Talent, Martial Study, and Martial Stance can be taken as feats without dipping.

[Rasman]

Yes, I think you mentioned the Monk 20 thing to start with, which is why I was suggesting feats (which, admittedly, you don't get enough of). Shape Soulmeld, Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra, Hidden Talent, Martial Study, and Martial Stance can be taken as feats without dipping.

ah...I need to take a better look at Shape Soulmeld then, I was assuming, from my short look at the book, that it was a PrC with the rest being feats

[Keld Denar]

Nope, Shape Soulmeld is a feat in MoI. It allows you to pick any one soulmeld and shape it. You can't bind it to a chakra slot until you take an Open X Chakra feat. Many soulmelds have useful applications if you just shape it, but their real power comes out when you bind them. Kraken Mantle gives you a swim speed when you shape it (IE, take the Shape Soulmeld feat). When you bind it to your Arms chakra (via the feat Open Lesser Chakra), it gives you the constrict ability.

You can only shape as many soulmelds as you have con score above 10. Thus, if you have an 11 Con, you can shape 1 soulmeld at a time, regardless of how many times you take the feat. If you have a 19 Con, you can potentially take Shape Soulmeld 9 times and shape 9 soulmelds at a given time.

You would probably want to grab Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) and Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) along with Open Least Chakra (Hands) and Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). This would net you pounce with your natural weapons (unarmed strikes) and the constrict ability which is oh so tastey.

[Rasman]

Nope, Shape Soulmeld is a feat in MoI. It allows you to pick any one soulmeld and shape it. You can't bind it to a chakra slot until you take an Open X Chakra feat. Many soulmelds have useful applications if you just shape it, but their real power comes out when you bind them. Kraken Mantle gives you a swim speed when you shape it (IE, take the Shape Soulmeld feat). When you bind it to your Arms chakra (via the feat Open Lesser Chakra), it gives you the constrict ability.

You can only shape as many soulmelds as you have con score above 10. Thus, if you have an 11 Con, you can shape 1 soulmeld at a time, regardless of how many times you take the feat. If you have a 19 Con, you can potentially take Shape Soulmeld 9 times and shape 9 soulmelds at a given time.

You would probably want to grab Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) and Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) along with Open Least Chakra (Hands) and Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). This would net you pounce with your natural weapons (unarmed strikes) and the constrict ability which is oh so tastey.

that's, sadly, not going to work since my Con is only an 11 right now, I get another stat point next level though, so I suppose I could up my Con over my other stats for that...Sphinx Claws fits my fluff as well, my Monk is Osirion, which is basically Egypt, so that would be pretty awesome.

With Pounce, I get full attacks, right? So without it I'd only get a single attack? Does that mean I can Charge and Flurry?

If Kraken Mantle is arms, it might actually be a nerf in terms of damage though, because I'm using Bracers of Blades that, when I strike in Melee, deal an extra 1d12 damage and has two uses a day of Ring of Blades, +4AC and anyone I deam a target that is adjacent takes something like 1D6+10 Damage. Sphinx Claws might be nice though, if they work like that.

Otherwise, though, I think I'm going to take the Stance path with the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance.

[Keld Denar]

Yes. If you have pounce, you CAN charge AND flurry. Its the primary reason to get pounce as a monk! It allows you to combine your fast movement AND your flurry of blows ability. Totally worth it.

And yea, if thats you Con, then you'd be best with Sphinx Claws bound to hands and then going the Crushing Weight of the Mountain route. Constrict is just too much fun to pass up on.

[Rasman]

Yes. If you have pounce, you CAN charge AND flurry. Its the primary reason to get pounce as a monk! It allows you to combine your fast movement AND your flurry of blows ability. Totally worth it.

And yea, if thats you Con, then you'd be best with Sphinx Claws bound to hands and then going the Crushing Weight of the Mountain route. Constrict is just too much fun to pass up on.

That sounds almost too good to pass up, time to look for prereqs! :smallfrown:YAY:smallfrown:

EDIT: BAH! Requires Con 13 to take the feats...back to the drawing board...

[Keld Denar]

If you are a monk with an 11 con, you might want to skip the drawing board and go back to the dice...

I predict a swift and unpleasent death in your near future with only what, 25 HP?

[Rasman]

If you are a monk with an 11 con, you might want to skip the drawing board and go back to the dice...

I predict a swift and unpleasent death in your near future with only what, 25 HP?

nah, HD is an 8 so at 7th level I'm sitting at around 50 because of some good rolls...the only rolls I seem to be good at...

Our DM is pretty forgiving in that department anyway considering that with a MAD class I rolled two 11s and a 10

[Person_Man]

I've been thinking about the "I can't always just beat down on one guy" thing for a bit. I'm thinking that I want to try and work my way to Whirlwind Attack OR possibly the Power Attack > Cleave > Greater Cleave chain.

That would be a horrible idea. Your lack of full BAB makes Power Attack problematic. Cleave does add an extra attack, but only rarely. Great Cleave is almost never used. My suggestion is that if you want to effect multiple enemies, you should add reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) and/or extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) and/or find a special attack that effects multiple enemies (there are many such manuevers and soulmelds).

[9mm]

question: if your playing pathfinder; why haven't you taken Vital Strike yet?

[Rasman]

question: if your playing pathfinder; why haven't you taken Vital Strike yet?

because

A) I didn't have the BAB for it until now

B) I, somehow, never heard of it until our fighter used it in our last session

C) I can't use it in a FoB

D) Bracers of Blades = Better without taking a feat slot

[Gnaeus]

Since you're grappling creatures larger than yourself, might want to look at Clever Wrestling from Complete Warrior. While you're in that book, may want to look at the feat list. There's a bit of stuff in there for grappling, IIRC.

Clever wrestling is useless.
1. It only helps you escape from grapples. If your goal is to be engaging in grapples, this sucks.
2. It only works when you are small/Medium. If your goal is to be grappling people (even in PF where the categories aren't as big), you want to be large+.

[Rasman]

Clever wrestling is useless.
1. It only helps you escape from grapples. If your goal is to be engaging in grapples, this sucks.
2. It only works when you are small/Medium. If your goal is to be grappling people (even in PF where the categories aren't as big), you want to be large+.

yeah, I'm working on either getting my wizard to cast Enlarge person on me every day OR I want to take the leadership feat and get a Buffer Buddy for a cohort that will just buff the hell out of me.

[Darrin]

Clever wrestling is useless.
1. It only helps you escape from grapples. If your goal is to be engaging in grapples, this sucks.
2. It only works when you are small/Medium. If your goal is to be grappling people (even in PF where the categories aren't as big), you want to be large+.

There's a workaround for 2). Leviathan Hunter in Stormwrack gets Clever Wrestling even if you don't qualify.