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JerichoPenumbra
2009-12-07, 12:33 AM
To everyone thinking that Shivering Touch Dex damage you are all very mistaken. Looking at the text, even though it's stating it's 3d6 Dex damage, it has a duration of a round/Lvl. This can only mean it's actually a penalty because there's no way they'd publish a 3rd lvl spell allowing you to make a 3d6 Dex penalty touch attack each round. Granted it's still horrendous, it's not as bad as everyone thinks it is. Since it's a penalty from an ongoing spell and not damage, it can be dispelled. So everyone thinking to take down dragon that can eat you in one bite with that spell, a contingent dispel magic or dragon who has still spell and you're dragon chow.

Lesser Shivering Touch is kinda lame being a 1d6 Dex penalty so you better off with Ray of Clumsiness from SC which is almost exactly the same as Ray of Enfeeblement except it's Dex.

P.S. Creatures with cold sub-type are unaffected by the spell shivering touch spells.

This is a previous post of mine that I wanted to show everyone.

sofawall
2009-12-07, 12:38 AM
This is a previous post of mine that I wanted to show everyone.

WotC would never publish a low-level spell that allows you to do crazy things?

You're new, aren't you?

EDIT: How can you possibly think it is a penalty? It says damage. It says so right in the spell. No mention of penalty.

EDIT2: You can probably hold the charge for CL rounds, or something. The duration kinda makes no sense. It does, however, explicitly say damage, and says nothing special about, say, "The dex damage lasts a number of rounds equal to your caster level, instead of the normal time." which one would assume would appear otherwise.

Gralamin
2009-12-07, 12:58 AM
This is a previous post of mine that I wanted to show everyone.

You are incorrect. Frostburn saids damage, and damage != penalty.

Fax Celestis
2009-12-07, 12:59 AM
This is a previous post of mine that I wanted to show everyone.

Hey, check it out. The spell says "damage". That must mean it inflicts a "penalty", because that's the same thing!

Tavar
2009-12-07, 01:02 AM
Hey, you knoe what else? If you're reduced to -10hp, you actually don't die. See, the books might say that you die, but really, who can trust them?:smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-07, 01:03 AM
First of all, you can't really argue with what's written. It says dexterity damage, it means dexterity damage. Ability damage is instantaneous, just like HP damage. If you take damage from a Wall of Fire, that damage doesn't go away at the end of the spell's duration. If you take dexterity damage from a Shivering Touch spell, it stays until it's healed by either magical or mundane means, as the spell is currently written.

The spell does look poorly edited, and likely isn't what they had in mind for how it would work. There is plenty of room for houserules, but these will always be up to the DM to work out, as there is no arguing the RAW here. As you've already said, they could have meant that it's a penalty that only lasts for the duration, as suggested by the wording of Lesser Shivering Touch. It also could mean that the target of a Lesser Shivering Touch spell will shiver uncontrollably and take 1d6 Dex damage per round of the duration. It could be houseruled either way, but keep in mind a change to what is explicitly written would indeed be a houserule. Furthermore, let's look at the Chilblain's spell-like abilities, from the monster chapter of that same book:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect fi re, frostfell slide,
lesser frostburn (DC 15), frostburn (DC 18), ice storm, shivering
touch (DC 17), wall of ice (DC 18); 3/day—cone of cold (DC 19),
wall of coldfi re (DC 19). Caster level 20th.
DC 17? The spell has no saving throw as printed, but maybe there was originally a Fortitude Negates attached, making it far less powerful and game-breaking. It's fairly standard however for a spell that requires a melee or ranged touch attack to not also allow a saving throw, or at least still have a majority of its effect on a successful save (Chill Touch, Orb spells). There's no telling what the saving throw would change about this spell's effect, but it does leave something for a DM to point out when houseruling that it allows a saving throw.

As I said, there's no room to argue the RAW here, it says damage and it means damage. Any change to this would be a houserule, and it would not be unreasonable to do so. As a DM, I remind my players that anything the PCs can do, the DM can do better. If they stock up on +1 Spellstoring arrows and put a Maximized Shivering Touch into each one, they may run into opponents who have the same items and a higher initiative, or at least a surprise round and Entropic Shield. It's in their best interests to just ignore spells like this, so that their opponents will do the same.

Edea
2009-12-07, 01:03 AM
Not like death actually means anything in RAWorld.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-07, 01:55 AM
honestly, a penalty would make the spell somewhat more universally nasty, if a tad weaker. unlike drain and damage, ability penalties still affect undead. (it still wouldn't work on constructs, since they're immune to necromancy spells.)

As for the duration? no clue what they were thinking. the spell lists ability damage and the frostburn errata doesn't do anything to correct the spell.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-07, 02:09 AM
honestly, a penalty would make the spell somewhat more universally nasty, if a tad weaker. unlike drain and damage, ability penalties still affect undead. (it still wouldn't work on constructs, since they're immune to necromancy spells.)

As for the duration? no clue what they were thinking. the spell lists ability damage and the frostburn errata doesn't do anything to correct the spell.

It would also mean that it wouldn't stack with itself, providing for a maximum amount of damage to dex (granted, a rather HIGH amount of damage, but still)

Eloel
2009-12-07, 08:04 AM
I have a question on the 'damage' issue.

Shivering Touch is a Cold subtype spell that deals Dexterity damage.
Would a creature with Cold vulnerability get 1.5x the Dex damage?

Also, can Energy Substitution (Fire) be used to deal 1.5x Dex damage to Cold subtype creatures?

Optimystik
2009-12-07, 08:06 AM
Not like death actually means anything in RAWorld.

RAW, death means being unconscious.

Eloel
2009-12-07, 08:07 AM
RAW, death means being unconscious.

And that you can be healed with orisons... (cure minor wounds)

Optimystik
2009-12-07, 08:09 AM
And that you can be healed with orisons... (cure minor wounds)

Not really.

"This spell functions like cure light wounds..." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureminorwounds.htm)

"When laying your hand upon a living creature...," (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm)

Sliver
2009-12-07, 08:14 AM
Being dead doesn't mean you aren't alive! :smallbiggrin:

The books lie! Don't trust the books!

onthetown
2009-12-07, 10:09 AM
Being dead doesn't mean you aren't alive! :smallbiggrin:

The books lie! Don't trust the books!

What is this "death" you speak of? :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2009-12-07, 10:31 AM
OP, it seems like you're pointing to an inconsistency in the spell description and saying that because it says it does two contradictory things at once, what it actually does is the one you prefer. This doesn't make sense - if it's genuinely contradictory, then what it does is entirely up in the air. You can't reasonably say that it's definitely a penalty, because it has a duration, even though it states it's damage, any more than you can say it's definitely damage, because it says so, even though it has a duration.

(Strictly speaking, I suppose it does in fact deal damage with a duration, even if that doesn't make much sense - but unless there's an explicit statement somewhere that damage cannot have a duration, then the spell, while weird, isn't so incoherent as to make the game world go "DOES NOT COMPUTE", and we don't have to pick one of the two possibilities (damage and no duration, or penalty with a duration) in order to get it to work at all.)

You're making an interesting point, but overstating it. Perhaps if you take the approach: "Hey guys, the spell description doesn't really make sense for damage, it seems much more reasonable to assume it was an editing error and treat it as a penalty since that's more appropriately powerful for the level of the spell. That makes it both more coherent and less broken, a win all round," you'll get a better reception.

JerichoPenumbra
2009-12-07, 10:57 PM
OP, it seems like you're pointing to an inconsistency in the spell description and saying that because it says it does two contradictory things at once, what it actually does is the one you prefer. This doesn't make sense - if it's genuinely contradictory, then what it does is entirely up in the air. You can't reasonably say that it's definitely a penalty, because it has a duration, even though it states it's damage, any more than you can say it's definitely damage, because it says so, even though it has a duration.

(Strictly speaking, I suppose it does in fact deal damage with a duration, even if that doesn't make much sense - but unless there's an explicit statement somewhere that damage cannot have a duration, then the spell, while weird, isn't so incoherent as to make the game world go "DOES NOT COMPUTE", and we don't have to pick one of the two possibilities (damage and no duration, or penalty with a duration) in order to get it to work at all.)

You're making an interesting point, but overstating it. Perhaps if you take the approach: "Hey guys, the spell description doesn't really make sense for damage, it seems much more reasonable to assume it was an editing error and treat it as a penalty since that's more appropriately powerful for the level of the spell. That makes it both more coherent and less broken, a win all round," you'll get a better reception.

Thanks I'll keep that in mind next time. Then again ........... you know what nevermind.

JerichoPenumbra
2009-12-07, 11:17 PM
EDIT2: You can probably hold the charge for CL rounds, or something.

It states in the PH that "If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Ponce
2009-12-07, 11:25 PM
So, how probabilistic is it that it is meant to let you make multiple attacks with it? I mean, it says 1 round/level, and NOT "1 round/level, or until discharged" as spells of that type are wont to do. I think everybody's favourite dragon-killer just became some kind of unholy dragon-mowing Gatling cannon.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 05:10 AM
Does it say the damage has a duration, or the spell, once cast, has a duration?

Or neither- hence all the arguments?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-08, 05:57 AM
It says
Duration: 1 round/level

It's not very helpful.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 06:00 AM
Maybe check for precedent- are there other spells that allow you to inflict ability damage, that make it clear that the ability damage comes back the moment the spell ends?

Or is it more like "holding the charge" so to speak, on one of the various draining spells?

Superglucose
2009-12-08, 06:51 AM
So, how probabilistic is it that it is meant to let you make multiple attacks with it? I mean, it says 1 round/level, and NOT "1 round/level, or until discharged" as spells of that type are wont to do. I think everybody's favourite dragon-killer just became some kind of unholy dragon-mowing Gatling cannon.
Clearly Shivvering Touch was intended to be like Produce Flame: you hit them once and then it's still there!

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-08, 06:57 AM
Ironically, making it a penalty actually makes it even worse. Because then creatures normally immune to stat damage(undead, constructs, Big T) go down to it just like everyone else. At least now we know that a scroll of Wish and a 9th level wizard can wipe out Big T with just True Strike and Maximized Shivering Touch.

katans
2009-12-08, 07:12 AM
Ironically, making it a penalty actually makes it even worse. Because then creatures normally immune to stat damage(undead, constructs, Big T)

Just on a side note, Undead aren't immune to all stat damage, only to damage to their physical abilities. Ego Whip and Ray of Stoopid still go a long way.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 07:14 AM
They have immunity to any power that is called "mind affecting"

However- this might not cover all spells that do damage to Int, Wis, Cha.

industrious
2009-12-08, 09:02 AM
Question: If one uses Energy Substitution(Acid) on Shivering touch, are creatures with the [Cold] subtype still immune to it?

Boci
2009-12-08, 09:18 AM
Ironically, making it a penalty actually makes it even worse. Because then creatures normally immune to stat damage(undead, constructs, Big T) go down to it just like everyone else. At least now we know that a scroll of Wish and a 9th level wizard can wipe out Big T with just True Strike and Maximized Shivering Touch.

But a penalty cannot reduce a state below 1, so the spell just reduces a targets dex and ref saves instead of making it helpless.

Optimystik
2009-12-08, 10:45 AM
But a penalty cannot reduce a state below 1, so the spell just reduces a targets dex and ref saves instead of making it helpless.

And AC. But you are correct, it is more dangerous as damage for just that reason. A 1 Dex Dragon may be clumsy, but is still lethal.


Question: If one uses Energy Substitution(Acid) on Shivering touch, are creatures with the [Cold] subtype still immune to it?

Annoyingly, the feat only refers to changing the "energy type" - descriptor - and does not distinguish between subtyped spells that make no sense outside their default element. Elemental Savant clarifies this as damage, but no distinction is made between hitpoint damage and ability damage. RAW, what you are proposing may be possible, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Boci
2009-12-08, 11:34 AM
And AC. But you are correct, it is more dangerous as damage for just that reason. A 1 Dex Dragon may be clumsy, but is still lethal.

I wrote dex instead of AC? That was pretty stupid of me. Would you say its a solid 3rd level spell using this version, because my artificer might make a wand of it.


Annoyingly, the feat only refers to changing the "energy type" - descriptor - and does not distinguish between subtyped spells that make no sense outside their default element. Elemental Savant clarifies this as damage, but no distinction is made between hitpoint damage and ability damage. RAW, what you are proposing may be possible, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Why does this make me think of piercing cold?

Roderick_BR
2009-12-08, 12:56 PM
And we know everyone always have dispell/restore spells ready/contingenced.
Always.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 01:03 PM
We've had "dexterity penalty" and "dexterity damage"

But might this be, as Rules Compendium put it, on page 6, an

"effective ability score reduction"?

Or is this just another name for ability score penalty?

JerichoPenumbra
2010-03-06, 02:22 PM
I revise my previous statements about shivering touch. Apparently there are other spells that deal Dex damage with a duration. Also the realization of that whether or not it's damage or a penalty, take too much and your out of combat.

On an slightly different note, I support the use of a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch or Vampiric Touch or using a Lesser Maximize Rod on Shivering Touch or Vampiric Touch and casting it into a spell-storing weapon.

ericgrau
2010-03-06, 03:21 PM
Ability damage, ability drain and ability penalty are 3 different things.

Now here's a question that'll throw you for a loop: What happens when a dragon is reduced to dexterity 0? Dragons are immune to paralysis.

Either way, it's still a fairly broken spell in that defenses against touch attacks don't scale and quickened true strike isn't that complicated even when it's not an easy roll. Meaning you can one shot a BBEG with no save. Maybe two shot if he has SR. Common solutions without banning the spell involve escalation and mutually assured destruction. Escalation means all PCs and monsters must have XYZ specific defenses... and everything except shivering touch is affected even more as the other spells are still weaker. So now it's a bad idea to use those. When forced to use 1 or 2 offensive and defensive strategies unless you want to suck hard, the game gets boring fast. Mutually assured destruction shares the same boredom problem, except that fights also end fast if there is no equally overpowered defense.

Oslecamo
2010-03-06, 03:41 PM
Either way, it's still a fairly broken spell in that defenses against touch attacks don't scale and quickened true strike isn't that complicated even when it's not an easy roll. Meaning you can one shot a BBEG with no save. Maybe two shot if he has SR. Common solutions without banning the spell involve escalation and mutually assured destruction. Escalation means all PCs and monsters must have XYZ specific defenses... and everything except shivering touch is affected even more as the other spells are still weaker. So now it's a bad idea to use those. When forced to use 1 or 2 offensive and defensive strategies unless you want to suck hard, the game gets boring fast.

Say hello to scintilating scales. Either in potion, spell or custom item form, it turns those butloads of normaly useless natural armor in a mighty caster defense, even when they're using true strike.

Best of all, it screws caster rays, orbs and shivering touches, but leaves your melees and fireball sorcerors just as well as before, as they don't really care much about touch AC to begin with!

If your BBEG doesn't walk around with it, then it deserves to die horribly.

ericgrau
2010-03-06, 03:46 PM
Common solutions without banning the spell involve escalation and mutually assured destruction. Escalation means all PCs and monsters must have XYZ specific defenses... and everything except shivering touch is affected even more as the other spells are still weaker. So now it's a bad idea to use those. When forced to use 1 or 2 offensive and defensive strategies unless you want to suck hard, the game gets boring fast.
I love being psychic. Oh wait, no, that's hindsight combined with rote repetition.

Also, quickened true strike.

Oslecamo
2010-03-06, 03:52 PM
I love being psychic. Oh wait, no, that's hindsight combined with rote repetition.


You mean that your casters are using shivering touchs but are not buffing themselves? And the BBEG walks around naked? And the fighter doesn't uses armor? It is a fundamental rule of D&D that everybody boosts their defenses.:smallamused:

Plus as I pointed out and you ignored, scintilating scales screws over the strongest spells whitout penalyzing suboptimal ones, actualy leveling the playing field.



Also, quickened true strike.

Good, but still not good enough for scintilating scales +30 nat armor bonus!:smallcool:

ericgrau
2010-03-06, 04:04 PM
Above point still applies and is still twice not responded to. You essentially remove all ranged touch spells from the game as they are hit just as hard to land as shivering touch, and still much worse. Scintillating scales only makes touch AC equal to non-touch AC, at best, and true strike is generally enough to hit someone's non-touch AC on all except a natural 1... as anyone already knows regardless of irrelevant numbers already countered by the attack bonus of any party of appropriate level to face such a monster.

Btw, this is the final time I will inform anyone of common knowledge. After that I will assume intentional ignorance rather than an understandable silly mistake.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-06, 04:25 PM
Ability damage, ability drain and ability penalty are 3 different things.

Now here's a question that'll throw you for a loop: What happens when a dragon is reduced to dexterity 0? Dragons are immune to paralysis.

Dragon are immune to condition paralyzed. Dex 0 doesn't do that: it is it's own grandpa.
Dex 0 functions like patalyzed, but not paralyzed so Dragon no immune.

sofawall
2010-03-06, 04:26 PM
Btw, this is the final time I will inform anyone of common knowledge. After that I will assume intentional ignorance rather than an understandable silly mistake.

You may want to make a thread for that announcement, as it will effect so many people. Someone might miss it in this old thread, and then who knows what horrible misnderstandings could happen!

/sarcasm

BenTheJester
2010-03-06, 05:06 PM
I revise my previous statements about shivering touch. Apparently there are other spells that deal Dex damage with a duration. Also the realization of that whether or not it's damage or a penalty, take too much and your out of combat.

On an slightly different note, I support the use of a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch or Vampiric Touch or using a Lesser Maximize Rod on Shivering Touch or Vampiric Touch and casting it into a spell-storing weapon.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/10/445810/1/73306500.sORS6AcU.threadomancy.jpg

marjan
2010-03-06, 05:27 PM
But a penalty cannot reduce a state below 1

Is there any rule that says this? As far as I know only Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness have this restriction.

Oslecamo
2010-03-06, 05:28 PM
Above point still applies and is still twice not responded to. You essentially remove all ranged touch spells from the game as they are hit just as hard to land as shivering touch, and still much worse.
You seem to forget that shivering touch is a touch. Wich is based on str and means puting the wizard on the last place he wants to be, aka in melee range.

Sure you can turn it into a ray, but that demands making it higher level than other rays and orbs. Or you can send your familiar to deliver it, in wich case you simply risk losing a big chunk of exp in one swoop.

You'll end up needing so many extra stuff to make it work that you're better off shooting rays of enervation and whatnot.



Scintillating scales only makes touch AC equal to non-touch AC, at best, and true strike is generally enough to hit someone's non-touch AC on all except a natural 1... as anyone already knows regardless of irrelevant numbers already countered by the attack bonus of any party of appropriate level to face such a monster.


Because wizard's main stats are Str and Dex and he has full BAB and he spends feats and money to further improve his to hit bonus? Oh, wait, that's what noncasters and some divine casters do. Not classes able to cast shivering touch. Just because the party frontliners can hit the monsters doesn't mean true strike for a wizard with poor BAB and medium dex is an auto-hit.

So, basically, at the contrary of your personal play style, most wizards out there prefer to follow other more effecient tactics than melee combat or spend half their resources in landing a spell that allows SR.

JerichoPenumbra
2010-03-06, 11:01 PM
You seem to forget that shivering touch is a touch. Wich is based on str and means puting the wizard on the last place he wants to be, aka in melee range.

Sure you can turn it into a ray, but that demands making it higher level than other rays and orbs. Or you can send your familiar to deliver it, in wich case you simply risk losing a big chunk of exp in one swoop.


To quote a good... evil... whatever friend of mine:

To hell with your reach. I cast Spectral Hand. :smallbiggrin: