Tactical gameplay without maps

[Thoughtbot360]

Greetings everyone.

I've been running a sandbox dungeon-exploration style game over the OpenRPG program with the Zodiac Final Fantasy RPG (http://www14.brinkster.com/zodiacrpg/). Trying to improve the game a little, I've read an article on Old School dungeon design (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/old-school-dungeon-design-guidelines.html). And the very first thing covered in that article is:


1. Environmental hazards -- slippery floors, rooms that flood, narrow ledges over steep drops, rooms that are excessively hot or cold, rooms or corridors filled with poison (or otherwise magical) gasses, etc.

And it is followed up by this one:


2. Combat encounters should generally be with baseline (or near-baseline) monsters with difficulty enhanced by the circumstances of the encounter (i.e. monsters have set up ambushes, monsters forcing the PCs to fight in unfavorable surroundings, teams of similar (or dissimilar) monster-types working together, etc.) rather than through templates or class-leveling

Now, these is a smart ideas. Sadly, I cannot use it. First of all, standard Zodiac rules which we are using assume there is no map. Every combat exists in a decidedly formless backdrop, perhaps to better mimic the games. You can do a Dragoon's Jump or send an enemy flying with an over-the-top attack...and not leave holes in the roof. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) This can be overcome as they do have a simple Map combat system (that isn't completely finished: They say you can improve your movement score with the right accessories but they don't rules for making such accessories.)

But more pressing is the fact that OpenRPG is not very good for Map combat. By any stretch of the imagination.

So, without actually making a map (which includes foregoing some pretty important metrics like how fast can you move through a cloud of poison gas?), how do you make battles more tactical?

I appreciate any help you can give.

[potatocubed]

Just a quick suggestion because I'm on my way to work:

Perhaps some sort of system where standing in place x gives you bonuses to some things at the cost of penalties to others. These bonuses/penalties do not have to be balanced, as this means that characters will want to pursue the most desirable bits of the battlefield. For an encounter where the monsters occupy all the best bits, make sure there is no 'neutral' terrain, forcing the PCs to seize the good terrain or get mown down on the bad terrain.

[nyjastul69]

Greetings everyone.

I've been running a sandbox dungeon-exploration style game over the OpenRPG program with the Zodiac Final Fantasy RPG (http://www14.brinkster.com/zodiacrpg/). Trying to improve the game a little, I've read an article on Old School dungeon design (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/old-school-dungeon-design-guidelines.html). And the very first thing covered in that article is:



And it is followed up by this one:


Now, these is a smart ideas. Sadly, I cannot use it. First of all, standard Zodiac rules which we are using assume there is no map. Every combat exists in a decidedly formless backdrop, perhaps to better mimic the games. You can do a Dragoon's Jump or send an enemy flying with an over-the-top attack...and not leave holes in the roof. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) This can be overcome as they do have a simple Map combat system (that isn't completely finished: They say you can improve your movement score with the right accessories but they don't rules for making such accessories.)

But more pressing is the fact that OpenRPG is not very good for Map combat. By any stretch of the imagination.

So, without actually making a map (which includes foregoing some pretty important metrics like how fast can you move through a cloud of poison gas?), how do you make battles more tactical?

I appreciate any help you can give.

What is a Zodiac rule? What edition are you requesting information about?

Edit:
M'kay, I now know what a Zodiac rule is. Please put your edition/system in the header. It'll save many people much time.

[Thoughtbot360]

What is a Zodiac rule? What edition are you requesting information about?

.....um......okay, I'm not sure you understand. Zodiac is a system. One other than D&D....

Please tell me if I'm off the mark, but your post befuddles me.

[Gralamin]

What is a Zodiac rule? What edition are you requesting information about?

Did you bother to click the link to get to the system he's using? :smallconfused:

[Thoughtbot360]

Well, thanks to Potatocubed for submitting that idea about different types of terrain. Sadly, without a map, I don't quite understand how I'm supposed to know where somebody is or isn't.

I can get some mechanics for moving, but the biggest problem is that I'm going to be flying "blind" because as I said, OpenRPG's map and minature tools are so bad as to forego any attempt.

Any and all space-related concepts are kind of hard to convey. If we can't bring get around this, it brings up an interesting question:

Are Tactics entirely spacial?

[Thoughtbot360]

Are Tactics entirely spacial?

M'guess they are!

Geez guys, what is with the busy forums these days, this thread doesn't even get traffic, just gets pushed down?....That Rakasa thread only has some 59 posts but has views in the thousands (Maybe I should see what the fuss is over there)

Oh well. Thank you for your time.

[Tyndmyr]

I think a big problem is that nobody really plays Zodiac, so...it's a bit tough to give advice about a system you don't know.

That said, you could use a different online app that supports maps. Vassal, for example.

[Mando Knight]

Are Tactics entirely spacial?

Entirely?
...
...
...

...No, but you're only scratching the surface without space. You're reduced to selecting a few things out of a list to attempt to maximize your bonuses as opposed to the others'. It relies much more on action combinations, statistics, and rock-paper-scissors type play in that scenario rather than positioning and movement. If you want to increase the tactical feel of the fight without adding in maps, you'll need to introduce different strengths and weaknesses to force the players to choose better options. Weapon guys don't do well against flan, fire doesn't hurt a fire elemental, water elementals hate electricity, etc.

[Thoughtbot360]

I think a big problem is that nobody really plays Zodiac, so...it's a bit tough to give advice about a system you don't know.

That said, you could use a different online app that supports maps. Vassal, for example.

Well, Zodiac is a little bit....you know what, the best way to describe it would be through its turn system:

You have a Speed score, which you add to a 1d8 roll at the start of combat, the some of which are refered to as "Speed points" or SP. Highest goes first, then the second highest, and so on until everyone has taken a "turn". Actions that make up turns force the player to use up SP. This segment of time is called a "tick". The process begins again in the next tick, starting with the character who has the highest SP and ending on the one with the lowest and begining another tick. When nobody has enough SP to spend, that ends the "round". At the begining of the next round

The actions one can take during their turn include making a standard attack, using a character-specific "Command" ability, use an item, or using one of the character's many Techs (special powers and attack moves which have a variety of effects and can be tailored to the character) which costs MP or other resources. Most actions cost 8 speed points to use, but charge techs add others.

There are other rules such as Melee weapons having trouble vs. Flying creatures, elemental weaknesses and strengths, a distinction made between Physical and Magical damage, status effects ranging from Poison to Sealing techs to Freezing in time, tech types and monster powers that make use of all of the above things, etc. And theres great narrative and....artistic freedom for Players and GMs besides. However, the Mechanics don't get terribly deeper than what was discussed in those last two paragraphs.


I have some flexibility for setting the stage, but its mostly "Okay, all one of you who got the flight support: you can't fly while in these narrow corridors, that'll be minorly inconvenient if you get ambushed by meleers there." and various "well, duh" stuff like that.

I'll give Vassal a look