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AtwasAwamps
2009-12-07, 01:13 PM
Hey playgrounders!

So, I recently got a chance to read through RotD again, and I have to admit, I love the dragonborn. Love 'em. Yes I am a huge nerd. Whatever!

In my head, I have the idea of a dragonborn fighter taking the racial breath weapon and the dragon wings feat (eventually picking up improved dragon wings, etc. etc.) and being basically a dive-bombing mofo with a breath weapon.

Im wondering how this would work. I chose fighter so that I could pick up a few charge related feats (which I believe work with dive, which could result in a nice big chunk of damage, coupled with making me capable on the ground as well when flying would risk exhaustion). Im not married to the class, but feel that at least picking up something like shock-trooper would allow for a pretty hefty hits, while using my breath weapon as a ranged weapon/AoE type attack whenever possible (or maybe through use of feats developing it into a debuff of sorts that would make enemies more vulnerable to a powerful diving attack).

I had a few questions surrounding the build (beyond just Is this even feasible?) so I though Id ask all of you

A Dive is described as exactly like a charge with different movement requirements. By RAI, does that mean feats like Powerful Charge, Shock Trooper, and Combat Brute would apply to dives when they would apply to charges?

B - Is all damage during a dive doubled, or just the base attack of the weapon? IE, if I power attacked for 10 damage, would it hit for 20?

C What metabreath feats/breath feats/breath channeling would be good for a build like this, or should I just not bother, as this build already has a minimum of two feats required, with flyby attack being a third obvious one to use

D For ubermunchkinry, how would dive work with pounce?

E Are there any other feats Im missing, either fighter or general, that would key to a character like this?

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 01:33 PM
If you're going to be working with charge you're going to want to dip the Lion Totem Barbarian variant if you have the option available for Pounce.

JasonP
2009-12-07, 01:38 PM
C: Look at the feats section here for some good info on breath and meta breath feats
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook

Person_Man
2009-12-07, 02:21 PM
A: Yes.

B: Yes.

C: Entangling Breath, from Races of the Dragon. Also Flyby Attack.

D: You'd dive, get a full attack, and get double damage on every attack (since each attack counts as part of a charge). Also, there are at least a dozen ways to multiply damage, so it's not particularly munchkinery.

E: If you're going to be a dragonborn Fighter, I insist that you look at Dungeonscape for the Dungeoncrasher variant. If you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object, you get a massive damage bonus. Since dragonborn can fly, they can Bull Rush enemies into the floor, and thus can almost always use their combo.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 02:29 PM
Well, there's this World's Largest Dungeon (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3086.0)-journal of the Order of Bahamut; basically, a party of all-Dragonborn characters. The campaign itself never got very far, but the character (builds) may be of interest to you.

Melamoto
2009-12-07, 03:02 PM
E: If you're going to be a dragonborn Fighter, I insist that you look at Dungeonscape for the Dungeoncrasher variant. If you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object, you get a massive damage bonus. Since dragonborn can fly, they can Bull Rush enemies into the floor, and thus can almost always use their combo.

Huh. I never really thought of that before. Could you also theoretically jump on an opponent and bull rush them into the floor (Since falling is just another form of movement)?

JasonP
2009-12-07, 03:11 PM
Huh. I never really thought of that before. Could you also theoretically jump on an opponent and bull rush them into the floor (Since falling is just another form of movement)?

I think you could if you can jump high enough to get the 10 feet required for a charge.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-07, 03:32 PM
E: If you're going to be a dragonborn Fighter, I insist that you look at Dungeonscape for the Dungeoncrasher variant. If you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object, you get a massive damage bonus. Since dragonborn can fly, they can Bull Rush enemies into the floor, and thus can almost always use their combo.


Ooooo...very good point...huh. Would diving with a piercing weapon double dungeoncrasher damage? I'd probably take it just for the pure hilarity of smashing people into the floor...

EDIT:

Some quick additional questions:

What kind of weapon should I be using? It needs to be piercing and two handed, which makes me think probably one of the exotic pole-arm types would handle it, unless there's a martial one that's more than good enough. Thoughts?

Also, is there a PRC class I should look to pick up? Or just another class? For some reason Duskblade is stuck in my head...going straight fighter for the character's whole career is not something I want to do. One of my thoughts was to actually go for two levels in the prestige paladin if I could get a DM Fiat to take the ACF Charging Smite instead of a mount for prestige paladin 2nd level...but even then, where would I go from there?

I admit, I'm really liking the idea of this character and his dragony-death from above tactics. I'm clearly going to be doing more damage with my charge than my breath weapon...entangling breath will make the weapon a great tool, though. I'm wondering if I shouldn't also consider grabbing something like flyby breath or maybe even quicken breath...quicken might be interesting in blasting a few targets with a breath attack to entangle them and then slamming one into the ground with a death-from-above style bullrush drop...

JasonP
2009-12-07, 04:52 PM
I just realized that you said you were taking both the Dragonborn Breath Weapon and Wings. I'm fairly certain that you can only take one. (I've been reading up on it because I''ve been wanting to play one myself.)

The Glyphstone
2009-12-07, 04:56 PM
You can't take Heart Aspect (Breath weapon) and Body Aspect (Wings) at the same time. I suppose a sufficiently convoluted build involving a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold could, with the Dragonwrought-only Draconic Wings feat chain.

Darrin
2009-12-07, 05:08 PM
You can't take Heart Aspect (Breath weapon) and Body Aspect (Wings) at the same time.

Which is why you create a Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept (Breath Weapon at will) with Body Aspect (Wings).

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 05:08 PM
I just realized that you said you were taking both the Dragonborn Breath Weapon and Wings. I'm fairly certain that you can only take one. (I've been reading up on it because I''ve been wanting to play one myself.)

He's taking the Dragon Wings feats. Since he has the Dragonblood subtype, that works just fine as long as they're taken level 1.

Person_Man
2009-12-07, 05:15 PM
Huh. I never really thought of that before. Could you also theoretically jump on an opponent and bull rush them into the floor (Since falling is just another form of movement)?

Theoretically, yes. You could also theoretically use it to trigger Battle Jump as well (Unapproachable East, *2 damage on a Charge if you drop on your enemy from at least 10 ft above). But watch out for Rule 0 if your DM thinks its too cheesy and/or powerful.

But the real Dungeoncrasher abuse comes from Knockback. See Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248).



What kind of weapon should I be using?

Also, is there a PRC class I should look to pick up?

Any two handed reach weapon works equally well for Power Attack and improved threatened area.

Dungeoncrasher requires Fighter 6. For PrC, I would definitely look at Warmind for Sweeping Strike and Expansion. But plain Fighter works fine until ECL 12ish if you load up on the variants.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 05:21 PM
Ooooo...very good point...huh. Would diving with a piercing weapon double dungeoncrasher damage? I'd probably take it just for the pure hilarity of smashing people into the floor...

EDIT:

Some quick additional questions:

What kind of weapon should I be using? It needs to be piercing and two handed, which makes me think probably one of the exotic pole-arm types would handle it, unless there's a martial one that's more than good enough. Thoughts?

Also, is there a PRC class I should look to pick up? Or just another class? For some reason Duskblade is stuck in my head...going straight fighter for the character's whole career is not something I want to do. One of my thoughts was to actually go for two levels in the prestige paladin if I could get a DM Fiat to take the ACF Charging Smite instead of a mount for prestige paladin 2nd level...but even then, where would I go from there?

I admit, I'm really liking the idea of this character and his dragony-death from above tactics. I'm clearly going to be doing more damage with my charge than my breath weapon...entangling breath will make the weapon a great tool, though. I'm wondering if I shouldn't also consider grabbing something like flyby breath or maybe even quicken breath...quicken might be interesting in blasting a few targets with a breath attack to entangle them and then slamming one into the ground with a death-from-above style bullrush drop...If you go Dungeoncrasher, War Hulk is awesome. Requires getting Large Size through shnanigans, but it is very nice. I've made a Raptoran that could Bull Rush anything of equivalent CR and Huge or smaller before, without being particularly optimized.

A Lance is a great piercing weapon for a charger. :smallwink:

Flyby Attack is great, as it allows you to move, attack, and retreat in one action. MMI. The charge should be your bread-and-butter, however.

Ask your DM if you qualify for the Raptoran Racial sub levels in RotW, BTW. Medium armor is far better than light for you.

Prime32
2009-12-07, 07:07 PM
Can you apply dragonborn twice, once for the wings then a second time for the breath weapon? (it won't work in the other order) Or you could be a dragonborn raptoran.

Just remember, if your character has a breath weapon but not the Entangling Exhalation feat then you aren't playing him right. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2009-12-07, 07:08 PM
Can you apply dragonborn twice, once for the wings then a second time for the breath weapon? (it won't work in the other order) Or you could be a dragonborn raptoran.

Just remember, if your character has a breath weapon but not the Entangling Exhalation feat then you aren't playing him right. :smallwink:

No, you can't apply a template twice.

ShadowFighter15
2009-12-08, 01:39 AM
You can't take Heart Aspect (Breath weapon) and Body Aspect (Wings) at the same time. I suppose a sufficiently convoluted build involving a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold could, with the Dragonwrought-only Draconic Wings feat chain.

I know it was pointed out a post or two below this one, but he said he'd be getting the wings through feats in the first post (emphasis mine):


...a dragonborn fighter taking the racial breath weapon and the dragon wings feat (eventually picking up improved dragon wings, etc. etc.)...

Posted this because I think Prime32 missed that bit as well (his post read like that at least).

Mongoose87
2009-12-08, 02:38 AM
Theoretically, yes. You could also theoretically use it to trigger Battle Jump as well (Unapproachable East, *2 damage on a Charge if you drop on your enemy from at least 10 ft above).

Now, just combine this with Leap attack and Shock trooper. You're guaranteed to get a book thrown at you!

Prime32
2009-12-08, 04:30 AM
I know it was pointed out a post or two below this one, but he said he'd be getting the wings through feats in the first post (emphasis mine):
[...]
Posted this because I think Prime32 missed that bit as well (his post read like that at least).Nah, I was just saying there are cheaper ways to get wings. Raptorans get the same dive stuff with their wings as dragonborn.

ShadowFighter15
2009-12-08, 07:19 PM
Nah, I was just saying there are cheaper ways to get wings. Raptorans get the same dive stuff with their wings as dragonborn.

Oh right, sorry; had a brainfart about Raptorans (for some reason I thought of them as lizardmen-like beings :smallconfused:).

Endarire
2009-12-08, 07:30 PM
Look under the Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon).