Dragon Age 3: Riposte FTW!

[mangosta71]

Ok guys, let's keep politics and religion out of this one. We'd best avoid the Great Pumpkin too, just to be safe.

I'm finding Virulent Walking Bomb to be utterly hilarious. I think the biggest chain reaction I've had so far ended with 4 explosions. Purple goo everywhere! Glorious. I only fear that it will become less powerful as the game progresses - I'm at about level 10, and as of now the explosion is enough to oneshot most of the mook-ranked enemies (even wearing plate mail and swinging a sword, so I'm getting no extra spellpower or damage from gear. Arcane Warrior makes me rofl).

[MrPig]

Indeed, as the game progresses it doesn't deal enough damage to take out some of the mobs, but regardless it's a great splash damage ability and a DoT to boot.

It's most fun during the assault on Denerim portion of the game as you can take out so many white enemies with one shot

[Gralamin]

The other thread isn't locked, I don't think we need a new one yet.

[mangosta71]

It had been locked when I checked it earlier. Looks like we've been forgiven this time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It'll be locked soon anyway. It got to 50.

So, to repost my question from the last thread that hasn't been answered yet, how much of a step up is Dragonbone from Silverite? Given that Dragonbone is the top tier (excluding the unique case of Starfang) it would seem a lot, but some of the best armor and weapons in the game, like Spellweaver and the Juggernaut Plate are made of Silverite.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something else I've been wondering. What gauntlets and boots go well with the Knight Commander armor? I've been pondering wearing that, since I want to look like a Templar and I can wear it because I'm a Templar, and Bergen's Honor matches, since it looks like a Templar helm. But you can't get Templar Boots or Gauntlets, so I'm at a bit of a loss there.

I'm thinking the Effort Gloves and Boots but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

[Trixie]

Um, the title is wrong! Change it! :smalltongue:


I was just sayin', that setup looks a lot like a paladin once you get to the late game.

You lose your class abilities if you ever use walking bomb, though. :smalltongue:

You forgot about 'Repentance' skill tree :smalltongue:


Right, but I don't quite get the impression that the organization functions in exactly the same way. The Night's Watch is open to anybody who wishes to enter, and offers a nice alternative to the physical mutilation that seems such a popular means of punishment in Westeros. Unless I'm wrong, Joe Thief can't become a Grey Warden just to avoid having his hands chopped off, and even if he does, he's gotta chug back some demon plasma with a fairly high mortality rate. You join the Night's Watch to avoid having pieces of your body severed, you just might die trying to get into the Grey Wardens.

Um, you're aware this ("demon plasma") only happens once every 400 years? :smallconfused:

And the Wardens are also open. Proof: Duncan and L-guy :smalltongue:


Really, except for the no kids thing, the Night's Watch isn't that much more oppressive than anyplace else in Westeros unless you have the uncommon luck to be major lord. And even then your marriage is going to be arranged. I mean can you imagine the horror of being married to Lysa? Gonad-freezing seems a small price to pay to escape that.

He's Jon freaking Snow, that's what it has to do with anything. And how long could a Grey Warden be flippant with a King, if the king chose to do anything about it? From the minimal amount I know, the Wardens command only respect, not armies. The Night's Watch at its height had what, 20,000 swords? They were sworn to neutrality, but that's a lot more power than comes from a King deciding to help you because he feels like it.

1) It worked okay for Petyr :smallamused:

2) Um, the very beginning of the game, when we meet said king? Pretty much. Even more at their home country, in WeiBhaupt.

As for armies - you apparently haven't paid attention to Warden's Keep, or to what Riordan says.


Somehow, I get the feeling ASoIaF won't fit Archpaladin Zousha's taste.

Why? Jaime is the very epitome of Paladinhood*, and he has golden armor, too! :smallbiggrin:

*In later tomes, at least. Two words: Kings Landing. And Riverrun. And... I'll come in again... okay, 'numerous' words, and I bet you haven't expected them :smallbiggrin:


I mean look at the Kingsguard, who are supposed to be perfect and chivalrous. You've got Aerys Oakheart, who has trouble with the 'no nookie' clause, Merwyn Trant, who doesn't care to the point of beating twelve year old girls if ordered, a bunch of guys without any really distinguishing characteristics, Jaime Lannister who sort of fails that whole guarding the king thing and the Hound, who isn't even a knight and murders butcher's boys. Of course there's Barristan Selmy, who actually takes that whole knight thing seriously.

To be fair, these are Lannister guys. Before that, they used to have Sword of the Morning, Barristan the Bold, Loras Tyrrell, etc.

Also, they're much better stand in for Grey Wardens than the Wall guys. They're even called "the White Swords" :smalltongue:

Recruited to fight? Check. Badassess? Check. Single? Check. Abandoning former life? Check.


What are you talking about, Gregor Clegane is the very pinnacle of chivalry and knighthood.

GREGORR!!! (http://blogoficeandfire.blogspot.com/2009/05/introduction.html) :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, read this.


Actually, you can intimidate them if your character is any good at persuasion.

He is. Normally, if a character in a book is a really horrible human being, it makes it satisfying when he or she is put down. But in ASoIaF, they kind of don't get put down.

1) Again: free XP :smallamused:

2) He gets better, though.

[ZeroNumerous]

You know, those thieves should have joined our army. I felt bad at first for killing them, but the XP helped me get over it.

Given that they would have been forcibly conscripted: They probably would have jumped ship as soon as possible.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So...about my fashion idea?

[Faulty]

By the way I got Heavy Hitter. As a Mage.

Yeah, ANYWAY class can do it with any damaging attack. I got it by casting Death Hex on someone in a Death Cloud spell.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah, from what i gather of his personality and morals from these threads, I'm pretty sure Zousha would not enjoy a story where a middle aged character is confirmed as a good guy by not raping his 13 years old wife and every time you think you know who the hero is he or she does something horribly wrong and/or dies horribly.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, from what i gather of his personality and morals from these threads, I'm pretty sure Zousha would not enjoy a story where a middle aged character is confirmed as a good guy by not raping his 13 years old wife and every time you think you know who the hero is he or she does something horribly wrong and/or dies horribly.

GAH! Noooooo thanks! Not for me.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I really don't need all the expensive gear, and can make do with less powerful stuff. I'm already pretty tough right now, and it's not like I'm playing on Nightmare or anything. I've decided to download the extra DLC (it's legal right?) and wear the following items with pride

Weapon: Starfang greatsword (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=933) (Grandmaster Flame (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=421), Frost (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=422) and Lightning (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=424) runes. I know it's not optimal but damn does it look cool! And extra damage is never a bad thing.)
Armor: Knight Commander's Plate (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=539) (I know the Juggernaut armor's technically better, but this provides a massive boost to Willpower and extra protection from spells. Plus, it's Templar armor, so I get to look all paladiny.)
Helmet: Bergen's Honor (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=87) (Very nice benefits, and it matches my armor.)
Gloves: Effort's Gloves (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=295) (While certainly not the most powerful, bonuses to Strength are always good for my character, and they go pretty well with the armor and helmet I'm choosing.)
Boots: Effort's Boots (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=294) (Again, not a very big bonus, but a decent one, and again, they go well with the rest of my outfit.
Ring 1: Morrigan's Ring (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=687) (Again, more Willpower, and I'm romancing Morrigan, so it's a good idea from a roleplaying standpoint)
Ring 2: Key to the City (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=536) (I was pondering the Memory Band or some of the other DLC rings, but Key to the City's pretty powerful too, and it's free since its a quest reward. Plus I found out that apparently the + skill thing of the Memory Band is actually a free Tome of Skill and Sundry that comes with the ring.)
Amulet: Mark of Vigilance (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=1105) (Bonuses to defense will help protect me, and it boosts the defense against spells that my armor gives me even more, meaning the only way I could be even more resistant to magic is if I was a dwarf. Plus it's also very flavorful since it's supposedly given to high-ranking Templars. And it's free.)
Belt: Guildmaster's Belt (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DAO_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&DAO_Items.id=455) (Andruil's Blessing is hands-down the best belt in the game, but it's also very very expensive, and I'd prefer to keep my expenses low. The Guildmaster's Belt isn't as powerful, but has some nice bonuses, including an increase in monetary gain. And for a money-grubbing player like me, that's well wort it.)

What do you think? Not the UBER ULTIMATE MOST POWERFUL SETUP IN THE ENTIRE FRIGGIN' GAME, but certainly serviceable, and pretty fashionable too (Plus all the Willpower boosts will not only give me a great deal of stamina, but will also make my Holy Smite pretty good too!).

[warty goblin]

Yeah, from what i gather of his personality and morals from these threads, I'm pretty sure Zousha would not enjoy a story where a middle aged character is confirmed as a good guy by not raping his 13 years old wife
I assume you're talking about Drogo and Dany here, in which case bonking definitely occurred. It was consensual, insofar as one considers that possible between a thirty something warlord and a thirteen year old who have a single word in common. Although to be fair to Drogo, he did ask.

If you're talking about Tyrion and Sansa, that actually was pretty good of Tyrion, since the social expectation was for the deed to be done, and not doing it as I recall landed him in quite a bit of trouble. I would hardly call Tyrion a paragon of sexual morality, but the situation arose in a pretty believable manner, and he chose to buck the social expectation.


and every time you think you know who the hero is he or she does something horribly wrong and/or dies horribly.
Really, most of the time most of the viewpoint characters don't do anything that horrible. Hell, Eddard goes out of his way to do the right thing. Granted, it doesn't work out so well for him, but it isn't as if there are no moral people in the stories, and many (most) of them even survive for a fairly long time. Jon's done quite a bit of good (saving Sam, and Mance's child), and he's actually better off than he was at the beginning of the story.

To me, the more disturbing parts of ASoIF are the consequences of the Five Kings War, and the Arya chapters spent in the smoldering ruins of the Riverlands. Honestly though it was refreshing to read a story about a war that treated the reader like an adult. Too many fantasies have some Generic Plundering, maybe some Light Pillaging, but the villagers almost always get away, and it never really effects the heroes directly. It's just background for them being heroic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I thought this was a Dragon Age discussion, not an A Song of Ice and Fire discussion? :smallconfused:

[Kish]

I agree with Archpaladin Zousha. I know they're cited as an inspiration and all...but those books are still not truly on-topic for this thread, and it's quite possible to want to talk about Dragon Age and not about them. :smalltongue:

[thorgrim29]

Was talking about Tyrion (who is awesome). And I don't mean necessarily MORALLY wrong, just wrong (see Eddard and Cat being too inflexible, Aeris and, well, life, Sansa and her horrible decision making, anyone and trusting the Freys, Jaime and boinking his sister, and finally, to go back to DA, Dani and using blood magic). Also, huh, Firefox recognizes boinking as a word.... whodathunkit?

[Faulty]

Paladin, just so you know, as long as your equipment is tier 6 or 7, you'll be fine. I found Nightmare to be quite easy when I played it slightly optimized, so playing it on something less as an almost optimized character will be no trouble.

Personally, I think nasty back drops just make the good characters all that more apprecitable. And goody two-shoes are boring. No one is perfect.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't think goody-two-shoes are boring. If they're irritating, then yes I'll hate them. But a character who goes through really nasty sh*t and continues to try and do what is right is awesome in my book. Pally pride!

And how do you judge the tier of things like rings, amulets and belts? All my armor is either Tier 6 or above, and Starfang's so awesome it doesn't have a tier, but the other gear doesn't seem to get that kind of attention. :smallconfused:

[Gralamin]

On a lark, I picked up Mana Clash recently. And wow, is this spell cheap.
Level 20 Mage + Spell Might + Critical Hit + Mana Clash on a Yellow Emissary = 895 damage.

[Foryn Gilnith]

This Blight was nothing compared to it.

Yeah, that sort of irked me about the game. O NOEZ THERE'S A BLIGHT!!!!...

Dwarf: Oh, a bunch of darkspawn. Suck it up, humans, we have to fight this stuff every day. ((Initial reaction, at least; changed once he actually got to fighting. But see below...))

Cynic: Oh, a bunch of darkspawn. Damn, it looks like Ferelden is going to be overrun. Ah, well, time to go to Orlais. Or any of the other kingdoms in the world. No, srsly, we couldn't get a multinational coalition to fight this? If it's only threatening one kingdom I'm hardly concerned.

[Faulty]

I don't think goody-two-shoes are boring. If they're irritating, then yes I'll hate them. But a character who goes through really nasty sh*t and continues to try and do what is right is awesome in my book. Pally pride!

And how do you judge the tier of things like rings, amulets and belts? All my armor is either Tier 6 or above, and Starfang's so awesome it doesn't have a tier, but the other gear doesn't seem to get that kind of attention. :smallconfused:

You just use what you like? I think my TWF Warrior had a belt that gave a melesy +1 to strength when she took down the Arch Demon.

No one is perfect, I like seeing characters who are moral but not deific. If I want comically "perfect" characters I'll read something by Ayn Rand. :smallsigh:

[ZeroNumerous]

You just use what you like? I think my TWF Warrior had a belt that gave a melesy +1 to strength when she took down the Arch Demon.

I used that belt. Heck, my berserker was wearing Effort and Lifegiver in an effort(heh, I made a punny) to keep her HP from dropping like a stone.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You just use what you like? I think my TWF Warrior had a belt that gave a melesy +1 to strength when she took down the Arch Demon.

No one is perfect, I like seeing characters who are moral but not deific. If I want comically "perfect" characters I'll read something by Ayn Rand. :smallsigh:

Umm...are we thinking about the same kinds of characters? My moral role model when creating characters is Superman. :smallconfused:

TRUTH! JUSTICE! AND THE FERELDEN WAY!!!

[Dienekes]

I kinda have to agree with Faulty *except the Ayn Rand comment* I much prefer to play morally gray to black characters myself.

Goody Two Shoes can be done right (I generally don't think Superman is that person, but that's just me) look at Boy Blue from Fable (the comic), the bugger is perfect and interesting.

Course if Pally wants to be a Pally what's to stop him?

[Starbuck_II]

Umm...are we thinking about the same kinds of characters? My moral role model when creating characters is Superman. :smallconfused:
For a Paladin:
I perfer Captain Marvel, Booster Gold (he tried to be a Paladin...although he likes fame as well), and Jonah Hex (other than being disfigured he is a Pally). Supes okay, but not all versions (I like the Lois and Clark version from TV).

[ZeroNumerous]

For a Paladin:
I perfer Captain Marvel, Booster Gold (he tried to be a Paladin...although he likes fame as well), and Jonah Hex (other than being disfigured he is a Pally). Supes okay, but not all versions (I like the Lois and Clark version from TV).

My perfect paladin? Spiderman. Sure, he's not the best around. Sure, he falters and screws up sometimes. Ya, his life sucks. But you know what? Spidey gets up, dusts himself off, throws a one-liner and keeps trying. He isn't instantly perfectly moral in everything he does, but damnit he is trying.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

For a Paladin:
I perfer Captain Marvel, Booster Gold (he tried to be a Paladin...although he likes fame as well), and Jonah Hex (other than being disfigured he is a Pally). Supes okay, but not all versions (I like the Lois and Clark version from TV).

I only know about Booster Gold by name. I don't know who he is. And I've got no idea who Jonah Hex is. When I think of Superman, I think of the All-Star Superman series.

"There's always a way."

[Dienekes]

I really don't see Jonah Hex as a paladin. Though it's been awhile. And Booster Gold is more of an interesting take of a man who was not a paladin trying to match the ideals he supposedly represented.

[Starbuck_II]

Jonah is chivalrious, tries to do the right thing, and helps even those that distrust him due to this looks. He may be cynical, but you have to admit hge is bound by a personal code of honor to protect and avenge the innocent (very much like the Paladin code).

He even kills some Cthulhu monsters in his career: which is pretty big for a mortal (since he didn't die or go insane).

He'd make a great Grey Warden I think.

[Tavar]

My perfect paladin? Spiderman. Sure, he's not the best around. Sure, he falters and screws up sometimes. Ya, his life sucks. But you know what? Spidey gets up, dusts himself off, throws a one-liner and keeps trying. He isn't instantly perfectly moral in everything he does, but damnit he is trying.

Until he sells his marrage and his unborne child to the Devil in order to save the life of his 80 year old aunt.:smallfrown:

[Dienekes]

Jonah is chivalrious, tries to do the right thing, and helps even those that distrust him due to this looks. He may be cynical, but you have to admit hge is bound by a personal code of honor to protect and avenge the innocent (very much like the Paladin code).

He even kills some Cthulhu monsters in his career: which is pretty big for a mortal (since he didn't die or go insane).

He'd make a great Grey Warden I think.

Ehh, it's been awhile. I remember him using some particularly dirty tactics to get what he wanted done. But my memory sucks so I am probably wrong.

[ZeroNumerous]

Until he sells his marrage and his unborne child to the Devil in order to save the life of his 80 year old aunt.:smallfrown:

I said he was trying.

[Starbuck_II]

Ehh, it's been awhile. I remember him using some particularly dirty tactics to get what he wanted done. But my memory sucks so I am probably wrong.

He may be a Grey Guard (Paladin Prc) but he is still a Paladin.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So is it legal to download those promotional DLCs even if the version I got wasn't the CE and I didn't pre-order it? :smallconfused:

[warty goblin]

I said he was trying.

I'm fairly sure paladinhood takes more than "well, he tried."

Historically the concept is tied to skill at arms, specifically with lance, sword and shield as a mounted warrior. Perhaps more important (particularly to a game that doesn't include horses) is the requirement of honor and chivalry towards King or other Lord, God and people in general through defense of the right and the weak from the strong, and serving a Lady in particular, and all women in after that.

Selling your marriage to the Devil violates at least two of these, since it serves neither God nor Lady. Nor is it a violation due to a conflict within the code- your King telling you to kill a Nun for an off-the-top-of-my-head example- and so something worthy of a romance or tragedy, but instead just a plain old violation.


Actually I find it questionable whether you could play a Paladin without having a King to directly serve, or a Lady to serve through the tradition of courtly love. Those to me at least are the interesting parts of the concept, and whacking things with Divine Magic is a poor substitute for the contradictions inherent in a tale such as Lancelot's and Guinevere's.

[Faulty]

I think you're trying to get too close to the source material. The fantasy conception of a paladin is much more stylized.

[Dienekes]

I'm fairly sure paladinhood takes more than "well, he tried."

Historically the concept is tied to skill at arms, specifically with lance, sword and shield as a mounted warrior. Perhaps more important (particularly to a game that doesn't include horses) is the requirement of honor and chivalry towards King or other Lord, God and people in general through defense of the right and the weak from the strong, and serving a Lady in particular, and all women in after that.

Selling your marriage to the Devil violates at least two of these, since it serves neither God nor Lady. Nor is it a violation due to a conflict within the code- your King telling you to kill a Nun for an off-the-top-of-my-head example- and so something worthy of a romance or tragedy, but instead just a plain old violation.


Actually I find it questionable whether you could play a Paladin without having a King to directly serve, or a Lady to serve through the tradition of courtly love. Those to me at least are the interesting parts of the concept, and whacking things with Divine Magic is a poor substitute for the contradictions inherent in a tale such as Lancelot's and Guinevere's.

I thought a Paladin was just one of Charlemagne's royal guard. I may be thinking of something else though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I thought a Paladin was just one of Charlemagne's royal guard. I may be thinking of something else though.

No no, that's right.

[Kish]

Until he sells his marrage and his unborne child to the Devil in order to save the life of his 80 year old aunt.:smallfrown:
I consider it real unlikely that will be allowed to stand indefinitely. It's just...too, too blatantly idiotic.

[warty goblin]

I thought a Paladin was just one of Charlemagne's royal guard. I may be thinking of something else though.

Well at the uttermost beginnings of the word, yes, but that's not the sum total of what it came to mean in the period. And technically they were Roland's companions.

[thorgrim29]

Talking about Charlemagne.... I want to see other uberswords then Excalibur in fiction, Durendal, Joyeuse and Cortana Curtana deserve some screen time as actual swords and not Bungie AIs. Hell, Joyeuse was allegedly wielded by Joan of Arc, that's sword pedigree right there.

[Zevox]

Talking about Charlemagne.... I want to see other uberswords then Excalibur in fiction, Durendal, Joyeuse and Cortana Curtana deserve some screen time as actual swords and not Bungie AIs. Hell, Joyeuse was allegedly wielded by Joan of Arc, that's sword pedigree right there.
Durandal was the legendary weapon wielded by Eliwood at the end of Fire Emblem 7 (just called Fire Emblem outside Japan).

Zevox

[thorgrim29]

I'll amend that to fiction I know then

[ZeroNumerous]

I'll amend that to fiction I know then

Durandal (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Durandal).

They also use Gram, the Scythe of Herpe, Dainslief, Caladbolg(Caladbolg II), Gae Bolg and Fragarach(in Fate/Atraxia).

[warty goblin]

Durandal (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Durandal).

They also use Gram, the Scythe of Herpe, Dainslief, Caladbolg(Caladbolg II), Gae Bolg and Fragarach(in Fate/Atraxia).

Wouldn't the Gae Bolg be a bit hard to do in a game, since its entire shtick is that it absolutely kills anybody it hits, guaranteed? I mean giving the player a ranged one-shot kill weapon might be a bit problematic...

[Kish]

Give it to a villain instead, and make the player be real careful to stay away from him/her/it.

[warty goblin]

Give it to a villain instead, and make the player be real careful to stay away from him/her/it.

That would be worse. So, so, so much worse. There's only so many times a person can be killed by a spear thrown from between the toes perforating every joint of their bodies with barbs before severe frustration sets in. I'm guessing the limit is perhaps...3. After that, annoyance.

Besides, that would require fighting Cucholain, which is sort of a non-starter of an idea. I mean we're talking about a guy who actually warped into something extra-human when the battle-rage was on him.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wouldn't the Gae Bolg be a bit hard to do in a game, since its entire shtick is that it absolutely kills anybody it hits, guaranteed? I mean giving the player a ranged one-shot kill weapon might be a bit problematic...

Also, you have to hold it between your toes and do a handstand, throwing the spear over your head in order to use it right.

[Zevox]

Wouldn't the Gae Bolg be a bit hard to do in a game, since its entire shtick is that it absolutely kills anybody it hits, guaranteed? I mean giving the player a ranged one-shot kill weapon might be a bit problematic...

Besides, that would require fighting Cucholain, which is sort of a non-starter of an idea. I mean we're talking about a guy who actually warped into something extra-human when the battle-rage was on him.
And since when do video games include mythological beings exactly as they are described in their myths?

In fact, both Cu Chulain and Gae Bolg have made appearances in video games already. Cu Chulain makes appearances in all the Shin Megami Tensei games I've played, as a mid-power demon in Nocture and Devil Survivor and as a mid-power persona in Persona 3 and 4. Gae Bolg was also used as a weapon, a powerful spear which did wind damage and boosted the damage of wind magic and was created by fusing Cu Chulain with a spear, in Persona 3 FES.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Zevox has a point. Really if they put a mythical figure in a game it will never be up to snuff of the original counterparts.

Ex. If you faced Achilles most game designers won't make it so that your sword bounces off if you hit anywhere but one of his heals (unless he's giant sized and the heel glows red or something)

[warty goblin]

And since when do video games include mythological beings exactly as they are described in their myths?

In fact, both Cu Chulain and Gae Bolg have made appearances in video games already. Cu Chulain makes appearances in all the Shin Megami Tensei games I've played, as a mid-power demon in Nocture and Devil Survivor and as a mid-power persona in Persona 3 and 4. Gae Bolg was also used as a weapon, a powerful spear created by fusing Cu Chulain with a spear which did wind damage and boosted the damage of wind magic, in Persona 3 FES.

Zevox

Maybe it's because I take my mythologies too seriously, but this sort of thing just annoys me. These character already have stories, if you want that character, tell their story. I'm the same way with books and movies. These are great stories, humans have been telling them for thousands of years, and somebody's reinterpretation interests me not in the slightest. They may need adapted to the medium, but the fundamentals should remain intact.

[Dienekes]

Maybe it's because I take my mythologies too seriously, but this sort of thing just annoys me. These character already have stories, if you want that character, tell their story. I'm the same way with books and movies. These are great stories, humans have been telling them for thousands of years, and somebody's reinterpretation interests me not in the slightest. They may need adapted to the medium, but the fundamentals should remain intact.

Ehh, I sorta agree sorta not. A lot of the great mythological stories we know and love develop and change over time anyway often in the period they're most associated with (gotta love the tangles of the Greek and Norse Mythos). And sometimes renditions can be awesome (Hercules: The Legendary Journeys anyone?). I guess I'm just not as opposed to certain changes. An instant kill weapon not being insta kill in a game? Seems reasonable. Paying homage to great stories from childhood in a game? Sounds cool. Are the old stories far and away more interesting? Without a doubt. But there's room for me to accept other stories tangentially involving old favorites.

[Zevox]

Maybe it's because I take my mythologies too seriously, but this sort of thing just annoys me. These character already have stories, if you want that character, tell their story. I'm the same way with books and movies. These are great stories, humans have been telling them for thousands of years, and somebody's reinterpretation interests me not in the slightest. They may need adapted to the medium, but the fundamentals should remain intact.
Yeah, I'd say that's taking mythologies too seriously. I can't see any problem with reinterpretations or adaptations of mythical beings.

The Shin Megami Tensei series in particular is basically based around reinterpretations of myths. The main series combines a wide variety of mythologies, including everything from well-known Christian and Norse to more obscure ones like Babylonian and Hindu (though, oddly, almost nothing from Greek myths), into one cosmology where most of the mythical beings are demons (even angels get called demons in that series). And the Persona series uses mythic references in its stories profusely and takes the creatures the main series uses as demons and makes them personas, which are pretty much what they sound like - an inner part of the games' characters, which are chosen to reflect their traits and provide them with their combat abilities.

And both rock. Persona 3 and 4 are strong candidates for my overall favorite video games, and Nocturne and Devil Survivor are quite good as well.

Zevox

[ZeroNumerous]

Wouldn't the Gae Bolg be a bit hard to do in a game, since its entire shtick is that it absolutely kills anybody it hits, guaranteed? I mean giving the player a ranged one-shot kill weapon might be a bit problematic...

Actually, the Fate/Stay Gae Bolg -does- kill whomever it hits in one shot guaranteed via alteration of causality(the spear hits before it's thrust). And it is also in the hands of a villain. The only way to defend against it is to have such insane luck that you alter fate.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Compared with these weapons the artifact level weapons in Dragon Age seem pretty wimpy. Even with runes. :smallconfused:

[Gralamin]

Compared with these weapons the artifact level weapons in Dragon Age seem pretty wimpy. Even with runes. :smallconfused:

Dragon Age was purposely made so that magic weapons are weaker. This was a choice the designers made, and a good one, overall for the game.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Dragon Age was purposely made so that magic weapons are weaker. This was a choice the designers made, and a good one, overall for the game.

Oh no arguments there. When you get a unique weapon or item in Dragon Age, you WANT to hold on to it, and even if you don't use it yourself, someone else in your party might be able to. I honestly feel kind of sad parting with gear that I've used for a while. I'm just saying that it seems the old stories have more powerful and interesting weapons than anything a roleplaying game designer can come up with in the modern day and age.

Also, has anyone downloaded the promotional DLCs from the wiki? I want to know how tricky it is, since I have a few reservations but would really like that stuff.

[Gralamin]

Also, has anyone downloaded the promotional DLCs from the wiki? I want to know how tricky it is, since I have a few reservations but would really like that stuff.

Which wiki is this?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This wiki. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Downloadable_Content) I was told I could get the promotional DLCs from it in one of the previous threads, if I remember correctly.

[Gralamin]

This wiki. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Downloadable_Content) I was told I could get the promotional DLCs from it in one of the previous threads, if I remember correctly.

From it:



Be aware that a majority of the DLC requires an active internet connection and also requires you to be logged into your Bioware/EA Online account that you used to purchase or redeem the content. Otherwise you will get Unauthorized info in the Installed Content.
That suggests you can't use it to get anything you aren't entitled to.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh. That sucks then. Now I can't get that helm I wanted. There aren't any good helmets that go with the Knight-Commander's Armor, are there? :smallsigh:

It's not fair. I wanna look like a real holy warrior but the holy warrior armor isn't of good quality when compared to stuff like the Juggernaut.

[Gralamin]

Oh. That sucks then. Now I can't get that helm I wanted. There aren't any good helmets that go with the Knight-Commander's Armor, are there? :smallsigh:

It's not fair. I wanna look like a real holy warrior but the holy warrior armor isn't of good quality when compared to stuff like the Juggernaut.

You know, I could always make you a custom mod for your armor, if you design it and two set bonuses :smalltongue:.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What do you mean? :smallconfused:

[Avilan the Grey]

So is it legal to download those promotional DLCs even if the version I got wasn't the CE and I didn't pre-order it? :smallconfused:

Yes; if you go to the Wiki it will tell you which ones are legal and will work for everyone.

(Even if it's not legal for you (I think there are 3 of the "item" DLCs that are not open for download from everyone), you are not breaking any laws or contracts; the only thing that happens is that the after they are installed, they show up in the list of Installed Content with an "Unauthorized" mark, and they won't show up in the game until you log in with an account that has the right to use them).


Oh. That sucks then. Now I can't get that helm I wanted. There aren't any good helmets that go with the Knight-Commander's Armor, are there? :smallsigh:

It's not fair. I wanna look like a real holy warrior but the holy warrior armor isn't of good quality when compared to stuff like the Juggernaut.

The items that are working for everyone is marked with a "Can be installed manually" in the Wiki.
The items I have downloaded and works are:
The Lion's Paw
The Edge
The Battlemage's Amulet
The dwarven helmet, whatever it's called (the one wearing it gets really crazy eyes, btw)
The something-of-many-pockets belt

plust one more amulet and I think a ring, which I can't remember the name of right now.

[Gralamin]

What do you mean? :smallconfused:

Pretty much: Making custom items (Using models and textures already in the game), setting their abilities, and making them an item set, is all actually pretty easy to do with the toolset.

[Trixie]

So is it legal to download those promotional DLCs even if the version I got wasn't the CE and I didn't pre-order it? :smallconfused:

No, you've already fallen and lost your paladinhood for even considering it. You can repent by sending a few dozen in blanco checks to RIAA :smallamused:

Or by reading ASoIaF. Don't listen to detractors, they're exaggerating, 95% of these books aren't much edgier than DA:O. Plus, making opinions on what someone told you is like reading that Prima guide, and we all know how accurate they were :smallamused:


That would be worse. So, so, so much worse. There's only so many times a person can be killed by a spear thrown from between the toes perforating every joint of their bodies with barbs before severe frustration sets in. I'm guessing the limit is perhaps...3. After that, annoyance.

Besides, that would require fighting Cucholain, which is sort of a non-starter of an idea. I mean we're talking about a guy who actually warped into something extra-human when the battle-rage was on him.


Maybe it's because I take my mythologies too seriously, but this sort of thing just annoys me. These character already have stories, if you want that character, tell their story. I'm the same way with books and movies. These are great stories, humans have been telling them for thousands of years, and somebody's reinterpretation interests me not in the slightest. They may need adapted to the medium, but the fundamentals should remain intact.

CoughFate/Stay NightCough :smallsigh:

[thorgrim29]

Well of course we exagerate a bit, but even then I still remember the first time I read about Ned's death all those years later. Hell, I almost didn't believed it. I consider it one of the fictional moments that shaped the person I am today

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, you've already fallen and lost your paladinhood for even considering it. You can repent by sending a few dozen in blanco checks to RIAA :smallamused:

Or by reading ASoIaF. Don't listen to detractors, they're exaggerating, 95% of these books aren't much edgier than DA:O. Plus, making opinions on what someone told you is like reading that Prima guide, and we all know how accurate they were :smallamused:
I'm not the paladin. My character is. All he'd know is that the items mysteriously appeared in his pack.

And Gralamin? I have never had any friggin' clue how any sort of toolset in any sort of RPG ever worked. You're speaking to a guy who can tell you the names of famous British authors in the 16th Century, but knows only the barebones basics about computers.:smallfrown:

[warty goblin]

Well of course we exagerate a bit, but even then I still remember the first time I read about Spoilers redacted all those years later. Hell, I almost didn't believed it. I consider it one of the fictional moments that shaped the person I am today

Hell yes, I consider A Game of Thrones to be the finest novel I've ever read- or at a dead tie with Lord of the Rings, and that's saying something. I bet I've read it a dozen or more times now, and I'm still noticing things- the chapter where Viserys is crowned for example- is that Dany's idea, or Drogo's?

And I think there's parts of the story that get to me more the more often I read it- Dany, Bran, Eddard, even Catelyn.

[warty goblin]

And Gralamin? I have never had any friggin' clue how any sort of toolset in any sort of RPG ever worked. You're speaking to a guy who can tell you the names of famous British authors in the 16th Century, but knows only the barebones basics about computers.:smallfrown:
Make a copy of all the stuff you monkey with, put it somewhere safe, and go to town. I'd imagine there's tutorials available, those are a good place to start. The absolute worst that happens is that you need to reinstall everything, and that would take some serious doing. I modded Oblivion to hell and back, and it still works fine, although I should probably reinstall it anyways, because I bet I've got half a gig of extra textures stashed away somewhere or another that I really don't need.

[Gralamin]

And Gralamin? I have never had any friggin' clue how any sort of toolset in any sort of RPG ever worked. You're speaking to a guy who can tell you the names of famous British authors in the 16th Century, but knows only the barebones basics about computers.:smallfrown:

Ah, one of those people. That's alright, I'm one of those people who you are amazed to ever see outside, doubly so if the sun is up :smallwink:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, my mother's browbeaten me to make sure I don't become one of those kinds of people. :smallredface:

I guess I'll be grateful for what the game has. I mean, I could do a heck of a lot worse than the Juggernaut Armor. It's not THAT bad, and it's certainly better looking than the Blood Dragon Armor, which I think makes me look fat.

[Starbuck_II]

Ah, one of those people. That's alright, I'm one of those people who you are amazed to ever see outside, doubly so if the sun is up :smallwink:

Wait...this outside place... what purpose does it serve?

[warty goblin]

Wait...this outside place... what purpose does it serve?

Inspiration for videogame levels.

[Gralamin]

I guess I'll be grateful for what the game has. I mean, I could do a heck of a lot worse than the Juggernaut Armor. It's not THAT bad, and it's certainly better looking than the Blood Dragon Armor, which I think makes me look fat.

Well, what I meant was:
Say you wanted the Bonuses of Juggernaut armor, or a unique set of bonuses, or some other such thing, but wanted it to look like Templar armor. I could make a mod that does that in a couple minutes if I had the bonuses. Then, I just have to be told where you want it to appear in the game (Start with it, get it in a non DLC area, have Bodan sell it, etc.) and go from there. Modding is amazingly easy in Dragon Age, and it'd be very simple for me to make it, and just give you a file to install.


Wait...this outside place... what purpose does it serve?

Video Game level inspiration and getting to this university place where I supposedly learn new things.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If you had the bonuses? :smallconfused:

I'm not sure. I've been skitish of modding ever since I first tried it with Morrowind.

[Gralamin]

If you had the bonuses? :smallconfused:

I'm not sure. I've been skitish of modding ever since I first tried it with Morrowind.

IE: I'd have to know what sort of bonuses you'd want to make something for you :smalltongue:

Modding in Dragon Age is surprisingly stable. But your choice. I will tell you that Bioware definitely integrated modding in well: It's a simple game addon, and appears in your list of Downloadable content, so you can switch it off without much effort.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So what bonuses SHOULD it have? The Juggernaut Suit's got good bonuses, don't get me wrong, but I don't know if I want to have this special armor just be a reskinned version of the Juggernaut Suit. What would be good bonuses for a paladin-themed character?

Plus, I don't know if it's actually possible to get the matching gloves and boots that would go with the set. Gamebanshee says that there IS such an item as Templar Boots and Templar Gloves, but they're not available to the player. I presume they're only so the Templar characters have complete equipment.

[Gralamin]

So what bonuses SHOULD it have? The Juggernaut Suit's got good bonuses, don't get me wrong, but I don't know if I want to have this special armor just be a reskinned version of the Juggernaut Suit. What would be good bonuses for a paladin-themed character?

Plus, I don't know if it's actually possible to get the matching gloves and boots that would go with the set. Gamebanshee says that there IS such an item as Templar Boots and Templar Gloves, but they're not available to the player. I presume they're only so the Templar characters have complete equipment.

Thats a good question, something to think about. If you decide, you can just PM me the details and I can make it quickly.

I see all the Templar stuff in the toolset, so I can make items look like them easily.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you. :smallsmile:

Why do I let my fashion sense get in the way of my gaming so much? :smallconfused:

[Philistine]

As an alternative (or possibly in addition) to that, I can confirm that the Warden Commander plate will tier up all the way to Dragonbone in a vendor's inventory, at which point you can buy it back for a nominal sum. Assuming you liked the look of that set, of course.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's what the wiki said. But I'll likely be giving that to Alistair until I get the "Return to Ostagar" DLC, mainly because The Warden Commander Armor comes with a matching shield (Warden Tower Shield which randomly drops from Sophia, or Duncan's Shield later).

Also, is there any difference between the crimelords K and D? I want to do the "Favors for Certain Interested Parties" quests, but I know it eventually forces you to choose between K and D, and I have no idea what these guys are about, ergo I don't know whom I'd rather support. Any advice or insights?

[Kish]

They're both crimelords. What's to choose between? If your character wants to work for either of them (seems an odd choice for a paladin), flip a coin to decide which one you wind up killing.

[Dienekes]

Thank you. :smallsmile:

Why do I let my fashion sense get in the way of my gaming so much? :smallconfused:

No idea, we already had our talk about fashion, war, and the French.

Anyway, does anyone know a place where I can learn up on toolset? I just downloaded it to try my hand since I enjoyed Warcraft 3's more than the actual game, and I thought they'd be fairly similar.

Balls was I in for a surprise, so is there anyplace a guy can go to try and learn their buttocks from their elbow on this beast? *as you may have guessed I have no programing experience at all*

[Gralamin]

No idea, we already had our talk about fashion, war, and the French.

Anyway, does anyone know a place where I can learn up on toolset? I just downloaded it to try my hand since I enjoyed Warcraft 3's more than the actual game, and I thought they'd be fairly similar.

Balls was I in for a surprise, so is there anyplace a guy can go to try and learn their buttocks from their elbow on this beast? *as you may have guessed I have no programing experience at all*

Well, the easiest way is to play with the NWN toolset first. Less can go wrong. The second place is Here (http://social.bioware.com/wiki/datoolset/index.php/Tutorials)

[Dienekes]

Well, the easiest way is to play with the NWN toolset first. Less can go wrong. The second place is Here (http://social.bioware.com/wiki/datoolset/index.php/Tutorials)

I don't own NWN so I think the first one is kinda out. The second one looks very helpful after a 30 second skim.

Thank ya, boss.

[DabblerWizard]

If people don't mind a topic change...

What does everyone think about the Origin stories themselves?

I'll try to be vague about story plots outside of spoiler tags...

I decided to really take my time with this game and flush out its various intricacies, and one of the first things I did was to try out all the origin stories before getting too far along in the plot with any one character. The following are my general impressions of those backgrounds.

Since I'm oriented towards spell casting types, I don't often play dwarves, since those characters aren't really flavored to be magic users (not that it's impossible). Yet, in my opinion, the dwarven (dwarfish?) origin stories are the most interesting. Maybe it's the unfair oppression of their caste system, their political intrigue, the distance that exists between the dwarves and the rest of the world compared with the dwarves' constant battling with the darkspawn...

Maybe it's just the idea that the other origin stories don't see quite as flushed out, or motivated, or moving.

I feel for the elves and their oppression, (especially the city elves and what happens to them in the origin story itself)... but they seem both more apathetic to their plight (maybe because the player doesn't experience it as much as with the dwarves) and paradoxically, they also feel a bit sanctimonious about their oppression, as though they would reverse-oppress the humans the first chance they got.

The human origin story is split into noble and magi, as opposed to cleaner cut parallels like with the dwarves and elves, and this is slightly bothersome. Being a human noble is interesting... and the background clearly has its unique opportunities, but the dwarf noble story, just feels more interesting...

It's as though family death isn't as inspiring as being cast out by your whole race on top of being betrayed by your brother... and it also doesn't seem as motivating to lose family, compared to losing one's entire home land to another race of creatures...

What do other people think?

[ZeroNumerous]

human noble ... the dwarf noble story, just feels more interesting...

Thing is: In Dorf society this happens all the time. It's a simple matter of course and nothing to be bent out of shape(even the thing with your brother is normal). In human society, what happens during the noble origin is horrible precisely because it doesn't happen all the time. It's an abhorrent departure from the modus operandi of most rational societies, and that's why it strikes a cord with most people.

[Dienekes]

The ranking of origins was discussed briefly in the last thread close to the end.

Mine went something like this
Human Noble (best villain and badass mom)
Dwarf Noble
Dwarf Commoner
Mage
Dalish Elf

I have not played through the city elf origin, as I'm not an elf guy and I only played the Dalish from the strong mongol vibe they were given leading up to the game. I am planning on getting around to them though.

What people were saying was vaguely similar to my opinions on the matter, with the town elf origin somewhere in the middle. With Zevox, if memory serves, placing the Mage origin a bit higher due to the interactions with Jowan (who I still think is an utter moron who barely deserves pity)

[Starbuck_II]

I feel or the elves and their oppression, (especially the city elves and what happens to them in the origin story itself)... but they seem both more apathetic to their plight (maybe because the player doesn't experience it as much as with the dwarves) and paradoxically, they also feel a bit sanctimonious about their oppression, as though they would reverse-oppress the humans the first chance they got.

Female City Elf: you get captured see a fellow elf slaughted while she was begging for us to be free.

I felt emotion: they ruined my wedding day: time to go Kill Bill on them! And I slaughted them all (like the dogs there were; stupid humans) in my wedding dress which was awesome.

Never played Dawlish Elf.
I've seen human noble origin, but never played
I've played elven Mage: I ratted out on my friend. I think the Chanty suck after their treatment and attitude of my fellow mages and me.

I liked Dwarf Commoner more than Noble (besides fact that they steal all your hard earned stuff in Noble one) because you were the underdog just trying to get by.

So rating them:
Dwarf Commoner
Elf Mage
Dwarf Noble
Human Noble (Unknown but looked cool)
Dalish Elf (unknown)

[Foryn Gilnith]

The ones I did, in order:
Mage
Male Dwarf Noble
Male Human Noble
Male Dwarf Commoner
Female City Elf
Male Dalish Elf

Mage: Interesting, if lacking the emotive value of the others. The least traumatic origin story, and thus spawned the nicest character I've played. Didn't much mind the chantry, thought mages were a bit too haughty about their oppression, and specced into Spirit Healer. Playthrough still in progress, as I haven't been playing long.

Dwarf Noble: Really moving. At the end of it I felt a burning genocidal hatred for dwarven society.

Human: Not quite as moving; maybe I grew tolerance for tragedy. Still rather emotive, but I wasn't grasped by it - I wasn't quite as immersed.

Dwarf Commoner: Interesting, and produced a rather chipper He just won the Proving, beat his way out of the crime cartel, beat his way out of the whole Casteless stigma, and found out that his sister has a patron (note: when I replayed the dwarf noble for a reason I don't remember, it was great to see the commoner's sister in Bhelen's room) Nothing particularly compelling, but well-done (contrast: Dalish Elf...)

City Elf: At this point, I had definitely developed a tolerance for tragedy. My arranged marriage was interrupted? Oh, darn. And my fiancee died and so did one of my close friends. *weep*.
Compare to the slaughter of my entire extended family in the Human Noble origin, and the interruption of my princely life in the Dwarf Noble origin; and losing the chance to live a squalid life in the Alienage didn't really strike me as so terrible. Still, I suppose I should account for the fact that I played the noble ones first... nah.

Dalish Elf: Yawn. I find a mirror, I get tainted by mirror, I go back to break mirror, I follow Duncan to Ostagar. Boring, short, and too forced.

Best:
Dwarven Noble
Mage
Human Noble
Dwarven Commoner
City Elf
Dalish Elf

This is heavily biased, but that's what the other responses are for.

[DabblerWizard]

I suppose I should give my own ranking, from most enjoyable to least enjoyable.

Dwarf Commoner - The social oppression I experienced engendered a strong feeling of resentment

Dwarf Noble - Nice political intrigue, and I enjoyed being able to snub lesser classes by repeatedly asking my First (?) why they were talking to me. :smallamused:

(Human) Magi - This story is only so high up because I really like magic users, not because the story was that good, though I still wonder whether I'd betray Jowan or not, on a second play through.

Human Noble - Not being directly involved in racial oppression, was a nice divergence in theme; I enjoyed being able to (far too easily) bed a fellow noble. :smallamused:

City Elf - Seeing how horrible the human nobles were to me / my spouse, definitely struck a cord, but the story didn't flush out the overall oppression these Alienage Elves experienced. They seemed basically happy, which was strange. The Dwarf commoner story demonstrated a much more vibrant case of classism.

Dalish Elf - Vaguely interesting story. Maybe I don't identify with nomads very well.

[Comet]

The Dalish Elf origin had one NPC that spoke with the voice of the Prince of Persia. That has to count for something, right? :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

Human Noble - Not being directly involved in racial oppression, was a nice divergence in theme; I enjoyed being able to (far too easily) bed a fellow noble. :smallamused:

City Elf - Seeing how horrible the human nobles were to me / my spouse, definitely struck a cord, but the story didn't flush out the overall oppression these Alienage Elves experienced. They seemed basically happy, which was strange. The Dwarf commoner story demonstrated a much more vibrant case of classism.


I thought it was like any oppressed people: watch the show Good Times.
Even with the sad times, you have to look for the good and live. Without them you'd go crazy.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I thought it was like any oppressed people: watch the show Good Times.
Even with the sad times, you have to look for the good and live. Without them you'd go crazy.

I concur. You don't wallow in despair unless you're forced to (see: branded/constantly mocked Casteless). The Alienage, through often troubled by humans, is a place where the elves can be away from their oppressors. They aren't constantly harassed, and can make their own culture with the resources they have.

[Morty]

I think all of the Origins are fairly decent, myself, except perhaps the Dalish Elf which is indeed rather bland. Mage origin gets bonus points for the trip to the Fade, which makes up for the less interesting later part.

[Khosan]

I think all of the Origins are fairly decent, myself, except perhaps the Dalish Elf which is indeed rather bland. Mage origin gets bonus points for the trip to the Fade, which makes up for the less interesting later part.

Dalish Elf origin gets bonus points for the gear it gives you. Makes starting out as an archery rogue pretty tolerable.

[Morty]

Can someone kindly tell me where is The Place of Power in the Brecillian Forest? I've looked all over both parts and I haven't found it. Or is it in the ruins?

[Zevox]

Can someone kindly tell me where is The Place of Power in the Brecillian Forest? I've looked all over both parts and I haven't found it. Or is it in the ruins?
It's the tombstone with the Revenant in the first section of the forest.
Zevox

[Morty]

Hm. I beat the revenant, but there was no indication of it being the Place of Power. Either that, or I missed it. Thanks anyway.

[ZeroNumerous]

Hm. I beat the revenant, but there was no indication of it being the Place of Power. Either that, or I missed it. Thanks anyway.

The other tombstone. The first one you find right after leaving the Dalish camp.

[Avilan the Grey]

...Well, The Edge rocks.
Definitely worth downloading (legally!) even if it doesn't show up for you automatically.

[DabblerWizard]

Mage origin gets bonus points for the trip to the Fade, which makes up for the less interesting later part.

I have to agree.

A magical place, where thoughts are reality (which is very much a Berkeley kind of thing to say, for those of you familiar with metaphysics) is awesome. On top of that, having magic be so intertwined with demons, is another interesting touch. It makes people question spell casters at best, and find them outright dangerous at worst. It's as though Ferelden magic is equal to d&d warlocks.

A thought occurred to me just now. While Circle Magi reach the Fade through a ritual, how do "apostate" magi reach the Fade to gain their magic powers? Do they depend on demons to come to them? Is there another source of magic?

Does anyone know?

[Comet]

A thought occurred to me just now. While Circle Magi reach the Fade through a ritual, how do "apostate" magi reach the Fade to gain their magic powers? Do they depend on demons to come to them? Is there another source of magic?

Does anyone know?
Human sacrifice (Blood Magic) works, I think.
At least that's what Jowan uses at Redcliffe to allow you to acces the Fade, isn't it?

[Mewtarthio]

My understanding is that the main point of the ritual (The Harrowing) is to make sure that mages can fight off any demons that try to possess them. Normally, everyone except the Tranquil (and, of course, non-magical beings like dwarves and golems) can access the Fade through their dreams. Mages just have an unusually strong connection to it, and can channel its power while awake.

[Zevox]

A thought occurred to me just now. While Circle Magi reach the Fade through a ritual, how do "apostate" magi reach the Fade to gain their magic powers? Do they depend on demons to come to them? Is there another source of magic?

Does anyone know?
Er, all mages draw their magic from the Fade. The Circle uses that ritual to actually enter the Fade while awake, not to acquire their magic.

Zevox

[Foryn Gilnith]

The Harrowing doesn't give any powers, it is merely a test to see if you're worthy of the power you have so far. You can get power without entering the Fade lucid, even if the power ultimately derives from the Fade. Jowan was a full-fledged blood mage and never entered the Fade except during his normal dreams. Apostates would be similar.

[DabblerWizard]

At least that's what Jowan uses at Redcliffe to allow you to acces the Fade, isn't it?

I kept Jowan in the prison, and got the Circle Magi to cast the ritual for me instead... but that's a good point, and a good option in case I end up deciding to play a character that trusts a volatile, under-trained, blood mage. :smallbiggrin:

[Jackel]

Looks as if most opinions towards the origin stories are similar here. The only origin that I'd call bad was the Dalish one. It has great loot and is the only starting setup with free archery talents (if you plan to go that route) but it didn't have nearly the same effect on me as the other stories. Though the Mage origin did have Jowan overcoming the Templars and First Enchanter with the power of plot, and he somehow managed to escape from an island, populated by magic-enhanced lake beasties, while the Templars were supposedly looking for him. There's luck and then there's dues ex machina. He didn't even have the blood magic AoE (which I assume he used) when I sent him into the Fade to save Connor.

My favorite origin order:

Dwarf Noble
Human Noble
Dwarf Commoner
City Elf
Mage
Dalish

I've only beaten the game with the City Elf origin so I can't comment on the others, but I felt the city elf origin tied in well with the ending. I'm eager to see if the others do the same.

Non-origin related question: Does Tranquility really stop mages from being possessed by or turned into demons? Because...

During the Circle Quest when you fight the boss-level Abomination he turns up to 3 Tranquil mages into Shades during the fight (fitting, as Sloth demons feed on apathy). Is Tranquility really just another means for the Chantry to oppress mages, giving them a false sense that there is a safe way out? Seems like it to me.

[Kish]

If you mean Uldred, I don't remember there being any Tranquil in that fight; the prisoners were actual mages.

[Jackel]

If you mean Uldred, I don't remember there being any Tranquil in that fight; the prisoners were actual mages.


No, I mean the fight in the room with the last statue for the Reach Guard quest (or whatever it's called to summon the basement demon). There's a boss-ranked Abomination and 3 Tranquil mages who're paralyzed. He slowly transforms them into Shades during the fight unless you kill him quickly

[Gralamin]

Joining Band Wagon, but with a slight Twist

Mage
Human Noble
Dwarf Noble
Dwarf Commoner
Elf Commoner (Female)
Dalish Elf
Elf Commoner (Male)

The Mage opening really worked with my player type, and was better then I expected. I also found that the "True tests never end" bit seemed to apply throughout out the entire game.

Human Noble had a good amount of emotional impact, and made you hate Howe, instantly.

Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner were both extremely good, but didn't have quite the same impact.

Elf Commoner is completely different based on gender. Female has a lot more at stake. Elf Commoner Male and Dalish Elf are the only two I'd say are bad.

[Mewtarthio]

No, I mean the fight in the room with the last statue for the Reach Guard quest (or whatever it's called to summon the basement demon). There's a boss-ranked Abomination and 3 Tranquil mages who're paralyzed. He slowly transforms them into Shades during the fight unless you kill him quickly

Aren't shades undead, though? I'm fairly certain nothing prevents a demon from possessing the corpse of a tranquil.

[Jackel]

Aren't shades undead, though? I'm fairly certain nothing prevents a demon from possessing the corpse of a tranquil.

As I recall from the Codex, a Shade is the form a (sloth) demon takes when it doesn't possess anything yet appears in the material realm... which made the occurrence strange to say the least. It seems that either the Codex entry's in-world writer was mistaken about Shades or the creators of the encounter let the lore slip their minds.

[Gralamin]

As I recall from the Codex, a Shade is the form a (sloth) demon takes when it doesn't possess anything yet appears in the material realm... which made the occurrence strange to say the least. It seems that either the Codex entry's in-world writer was mistaken about Shades or the creators of the encounter let the lore slip their minds.

Here's the codex entry

"It has often been suggested that the only way for a demon to affect the world of the living is by possessing a living (or once living) body, but this is not always true. Indeed, a shade is one such creature: a demon in its true form that has adapted to affect the world around it.
My hypothesis is this: We already know that many demons become confused when they pass through the Veil into our world. They are unable to tell the living from the dead, the very static nature of our universe being confusing to a creature that is accustomed to a physicality defined entirely by emotion and memory. Most demons seek to immediately seize upon anything they perceive as life, jealously attempting to possess it--but what of those that do not? What of those that encounter no life, or fail to possess a body? What of those that are more cautious by their nature?
These demons watch. They lurk. They envy.
In time, such a demon will learn to drain energy from the psyche of those it encounters, just as it did in the Fade. Once it has drained enough, it has the power to manifest and will forever after be known as a shade. Such a creature spurns possession. It instead floats as a shadow across its piece of land, preying upon the psyche of any who cross its path. Perhaps it believes itself still in the Fade? There is evidence to believe that is so.
A shade will weaken the living by its very proximity. If it focuses its will, it can drain a single target very quickly. Some have even been known to assault the minds of a living victim, causing confusion or horror and making the target ripe for the kill. The tragedy of a shade is perhaps that, once it has drained a target whole, its appetite is only heightened rather than slaked."
--From the journal of former Senior Enchanter Maleus, once of the Circle of Rivain, declared apostate in 9:20 Dragon Age.
Doesn't look like demon type matters.

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking of the title in this thread... As far as I can tell Riposte is really not worth it for a Rogue since I can backstab a poor sod I have used Dirty Fighting on at least 4 times.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The most likely scenario is that the writers forgot what Shades were when making the encounter. However, looking at the Codex entry, there is an explanation.

Tranquil cannot be possessed. This is true. Tranquil do not attract demons. This is true. Shades do not possess people, and therefore that aspect of Tranquil immunity is irrelevant. The Shades were not attracted by the Tranquil but rather summoned directly by Uldred, making that aspect irrelevant. The death of the Tranquil was caused by the Shades feeding on the psyches of the Tranquil, which is not something Tranquility protects against. Once the shades OMNOMNOM'ed enough psychic energy to materialize, the Tranquil were dead.

[Dienekes]

Alright folks, some questions about the ending that have been bugging me.
Right so we learn from Crazy Morry that the taint of the Darkspawn will inevitably affect the baby of a Grey Warden. All good so far, however this leads to a few problems. 1) Let's say Alistair is king, doesn't that mean each of his kids will have a higher chance of being stillborn or simply go crazy in like 20 years? To me this isn't the most optimal choice for a kingdom as it completely screws with the line of heredity, historically this means war and lots of it.
2) So your love child with Morry. It has the body of a human (can be infected by taint) and the soul of an elder god (can definitely be infected by the taint) so... does this mean your kids going to turn into a humanized version of an Archdemon eventually?

[Kish]

Alright folks, some questions about the ending that have been bugging me.

Answers are actually in the game...


Right so we learn from Crazy Morry that the taint of the Darkspawn will inevitably affect the baby of a Grey Warden. All good so far, however this leads to a few problems. 1) Let's say Alistair is king, doesn't that mean each of his kids will have a higher chance of being stillborn or simply go crazy in like 20 years? To me this isn't the most optimal choice for a kingdom as it completely screws with the line of heredity, historically this means war and lots of it.


Yes, if you romance Alistair, at least if you become queen (have to be a human noble), he tells you that very few Grey Wardens have children after the Joining.

Connor is a mage, if he survived, and may be an abomination. Morrigan's child may not exist, may not have been fathered by Alistair, may be a girl, and will be an Old God. For that matter, Anora was married to Cailan for five years, and apparently loved him, but they had no children; I wouldn't count on any children if she marries Alistair or the PC, either. And if she doesn't marry Alistair or the PC, but stays on the throne, then she never remarries. The succession is very muddy whatever happens.



2) So your love child with Morry. It has the body of a human (can be infected by taint) and the soul of an elder god (can definitely be infected by the taint) so... does this mean your kids going to turn into a humanized version of an Archdemon eventually?

If Morrigan is to be believed, no, her child will be the reborn Old God, purified of the Darkspawn taint, not an Archdemon.

Whether that's better for the world, whether Morrigan plans conquest at her child's side, whether Morrigan plans to take over her child's body (as Flemeth planned to do with Morrigan) and thus become a god herself...all these things are open to speculation.

[ZeroNumerous]

Speaking of the title in this thread... As far as I can tell Riposte is really not worth it for a Rogue since I can backstab a poor sod I have used Dirty Fighting on at least 4 times.

I have never found rogues useful or even fun. A warrior almost always does better or equal in combat, a mage breaks the game and the only unique attribute about the Rogue is that they have lockpicking. Even Leliana or Zevran don't contribute as much to combat as Oghren or Sten. And they're handicapped by two-handed fighting.

[Starbuck_II]

But only a rogue gets to cleave off foes head with a backstab killing move.

[Faulty]

A cunning based dagger wielding rogue can do a lot of damage. With the archery fix, so can Leliana.

[Starbuck_II]

Will the X-box ever get that Dexterity Fix?

[Faulty]

I'm talking about a mod, not the dex fix, which is also unofficial, so no, not in that form.

[Kish]

Bioware has announced they plan on patching bows. Whether the X-Box gets patches, I don't know.

[Avilan the Grey]

I have never found rogues useful or even fun. A warrior almost always does better or equal in combat, a mage breaks the game and the only unique attribute about the Rogue is that they have lockpicking. Even Leliana or Zevran don't contribute as much to combat as Oghren or Sten. And they're handicapped by two-handed fighting.

...So far I enjoy my rogue DPS far more than my warriors. If you get behind your opponent you make 2-3 times as much damage as the tank in front.
But taste cannot be argued; I find them very fun, unlike in say D&D based CRPGs where they are in fact very boring.

[Dienekes]

I have never found rogues useful or even fun. A warrior almost always does better or equal in combat, a mage breaks the game and the only unique attribute about the Rogue is that they have lockpicking. Even Leliana or Zevran don't contribute as much to combat as Oghren or Sten. And they're handicapped by two-handed fighting.

I must respectfully disagree. Ok yeah, mages break the game that's no question (really bioware, I thought in moving away from DnD we would get better in this regard). But a Two Weapon Rogue duel daggers can easily do more damage than any other character in a 1 on 1 fight. If they're flanking then hells yeah you hit the jackpot. Sten and Oghren don't stand a chance. But yes, they need some form of tactical thought to be sure their always in optimal flanking position.

And don't get me started on the wonders of the Ranger specialization. It might not be as good overall damage as a Duelist/Assassin (I don't know I haven't stated out the damage) but the 5th party member is a godsend.

[Zevox]

Bioware has announced they plan on patching bows. Whether the X-Box gets patches, I don't know.
The X-Box gets "updates" of some sort - I've been prompted to accept them for certain games on the rare occasions that I have logged on while my X-Box was hooked up to the internet. Granted, I'm not sure whether those are patches, but I would think if they can do updates of just about any sort, they should be able to do patches.

Zevox

[Gralamin]

The X-Box gets "updates" of some sort - I've been prompted to accept them for certain games on the rare occasions that I have logged on while my X-Box was hooked up to the internet. Granted, I'm not sure whether those are patches, but I would think if they can do updates of just about any sort, they should be able to do patches.

Zevox

I'm pretty sure those are updates to the XBOX framework, and not to the game.

[Zevox]

I'm pretty sure those are updates to the XBOX framework, and not to the game.
...except the messages specifically say "Update available for this game."

Zevox

[Gralamin]

...except the messages specifically say "Update available for this game."

Zevox

Well, perhaps I am completely wrong then!

[Anteros]

They do release patches for the consolve version of the games, but it happens nowhere near as quickly as for the PC.

The reason for this is that they have to get permission from Sony/Microsoft before releasing a patch on their systems. With the PC they can simply put it online for anyone to grab.

As to why it takes Sony and Microsoft so long to approve simple game patches...who knows?

[warty goblin]

They do release patches for the consolve version of the games, but it happens nowhere near as quickly as for the PC.

The reason for this is that they have to get permission from Sony/Microsoft before releasing a patch on their systems. With the PC they can simply put it online for anyone to grab.

As to why it takes Sony and Microsoft so long to approve simple game patches...who knows?

Well they do need to test them to make sure they don't cause anything nasty to happen. Beyond that, there's also the bit where platform holders sort of personify the term 'control freak.'

*Waves PC anarchist banner*

[Cristo Meyers]

Looks as if most opinions towards the origin stories are similar here. The only origin that I'd call bad was the Dalish one. It has great loot and is the only starting setup with free archery talents (if you plan to go that route) but it didn't have nearly the same effect on me as the other stories. Though the Mage origin did have Jowan overcoming the Templars and First Enchanter with the power of plot, and he somehow managed to escape from an island, populated by magic-enhanced lake beasties, while the Templars were supposedly looking for him. There's luck and then there's dues ex machina. He didn't even have the blood magic AoE (which I assume he used) when I sent him into the Fade to save Connor.


I always assumed that that was a bit of a magical sucker punch. Not strong enough to do any lasting damage, but more than enough to put an unsuspecting opponent on the ground for a while so you can run away

LadyMeyers finished her first playthrough over the weekend and from my vantage it seemed like just getting to the archdemon was tougher than actually killing the bloody thing. Zevran only went down once and that was because the dragon stepped on him (let that be a reminder to all elf rogues out there...dragons don't care if you're underfoot).

I just finished getting the Reaver specialization. Fun turn of events there:

Morrigan and Oghren put the Guardian down in about 3 seconds. Shale and I had only finished off one of the weakened Ash Wraiths before turning around and seeing Morrigan standing over the dead Guardian. Then went to get the Reaver spec, got it, then turned on the Cult Leader and killed him, and then killed his little dragon too. Watching Oghren ride the dragon's head to deliver the kill was one of the funnier things I've seen in this game so far.

[Starbuck_II]

So you are saying Johan used Earethquake?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I've finished the Brecillian Forest and have started my journey through Orzammar. Here's what I have to say:


Now that I actually have the Juggernaut Armor, I can honestly say it's a lot cooler than I expected. I figured if I wanted to really look cool, I shouldn't want to blend in with a bunch of weak but pretentious mooks (Sorry templars) but be unique. And when my brother saw the armor, he said "You look like a KNIGHT!" Which is just what I wanted to go for. I've also almost completed my ULTIMATE GEAR set. After finishing my quests for the Dalish and selling everything I found in the woods I had enough money to buy the Andruil's Blessing belt. Now I just need to save enough money to buy the Spellward and finish the Key to the City quest in Orzammar to get my ring. Then I'll basically have all the equipment that I want, and can start devoting time to properly equiping my companions.

Oh my Maker is the Grand Oak awesome! I feel like he was the only one in the forest who was truly friendly. Everyone else, the hermit, the werewolves and even the Dalish were all "My territory, keep out!" The hermit also irritated me for some reason. I'm not sure why. I ended up killing him after I'd gotten all the stuff I could from him, so he doesn't bother the Grand Oak anymore.

I really liked the end of the Nature of the Beast quest. It teaches an important lesson about hatred and how when left to fester, a grudge will only come back to hurt you. It felt really powerful to watch Zathrian finally let go of his hatred and free the werewolves from the curse. Leliana's song that followed it seemed like an appropriate coda to that part of the story.

I really liked the feel of barely contained hostility I felt in Orzammar, with the two factions doing everything they can to avoid killing each other in the streets. Also, Dagna is very cute, and Brother Burkel was cool too. I have a number of quests I've got to do on the surface now because of what's happened in Orzammar (gotta go kill Gaxkang and get the Keening Blade for Alistair).

I DIED! I'd planned on charging a pair of emissaries in the Aeducan Thaig, but they pinned me in place with spells and then fired spells at me until I was dead. Morrigan's new Revival spell (I made her a Spirit Healer so I can bring my romantic interest with me instead of Wynne) brought me back into the fight, but that means I can no longer get the "I'm Kind Of A Big Deal" achievement with this playthrough.

I finished most of the "Favors for Certain Interested Parties" quests, ultimately choosing D over K because for some reason doing both quests up until the point where you have to choose selects D. For those of you who yell "HYPOCRITE" for this non-paladiny behavior, let me say this. I may have coroborated with criminals, but in doing so have eliminated a crimelord. And I'm realizing the more I play this game that it actively encourages you not to think like a paladin. You'll go broke in this game very quickly if you try to stay on the straight and narrow, and the right thing to do isn't always clear. The way to play for a nice guy like me seems to be the principle of enlightened self-interest. I do profit from my ventures, but good also comes of it as well. Though for me it's more like doing as much good as I can, but not turning down a reward if it comes my way. The only "favor" left is Correspondence Interruptus, but I really can't finish that until I'm done in the Deep Roads, since Arl Eamon's Denerim estate won't open until then.

Does the Helm of Honnleath tier up to Dragonbone like the Warden Commander Armor does? I've tiered up the Warden Commander Armor to Dragonbone, but haven't bought it back yet, and was wondering if the Helm did the same thing, since it goes with the armor surprisingly well.

[Cristo Meyers]

So you are saying Johan used Earethquake?

Or something. I just think calling it Dues Ex Machina is a bit extreme. He threw a blood magic brick at them, go figure that it knocked them out. They can't track him, and a few soverigns ensures a safe trek across the lake.

[Morty]

Jowan's escape would be a bit easier to swallow if he had just knocked over some mooks instead of Irving, Gregor and a bunch of Templars.

[Cristo Meyers]

Jowan's escape would be a bit easier to swallow if he had just knocked over some mooks instead of Irving, Gregor and a bunch of Templars.

Most Blood Mages you encounter in the game are more than capable of putting the main character on his/her backside, why should they be any different?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Templars are mooks. Irving and Gregoir... not so much, yeah.


For those of you who yell "HYPOCRITE" for this non-paladiny behavior, let me say this.

Hypocrite. Well, less of a hypocrite now, because you've changed your stated beliefs to more match your actions, but a hypocrite in light of your previous statements.


You'll go broke in this game very quickly if you try to stay on the straight and narrow
Why do you need money? Oh, right, to buy your fancy fashionable armor. Sacrificing innocence (potentially) for fashion doesn't seem particularly admirable.


The way to play for a nice guy like me seems to be the principle of enlightened self-interest.
Or stop caring so much about money.

Nothing particularly wrong with what you're doing (at least, compared to the inherently violent nature of the adventurer), it's just that your self-righteousness about it is a wee bit irksome. Sorry if I snapped too hard about it; take this post with a grain of levity.

[Morty]

Most Blood Mages you encounter in the game are more than capable of putting the main character on his/her backside, why should they be any different?

However, most Blood Mages you encounter in the game aren't novices who haven't even been through the Harrowing.


Templars are mooks. Irving and Gregoir... not so much, yeah.

My point exactly. True, Templars fail at being mage hunters, but here we have an archmage and a veteran templar.

[Cristo Meyers]

However, most Blood Mages you encounter in the game aren't novices who haven't even been through the Harrowing.

The Harrowing only concerns his status in the circle, not how powerful of a Blood Mage he is. In fact, the only reason he hasn't been sent through the Harrowing is because of rumors that he was a Blood Mage.

I'm not even saying he's that powerful, I'm just saying that he sucker punched two more powerful characters and then ran like hell.

[Kish]

Blood Magic is a lot more powerful conceptually than it is when you can use it.

For the story, they wanted a terrifying, worth-dealing-with-demons-for power against with only the mightiest of non-blood mages can even hope to stand, which enables an apprentice to overpower the leaders of the Circle and the Templars. For the abilities the player can access, though, they didn't want one specialization to eclipse the other three--they may also have been limited in how much blood magic they wanted Jowan to start out knowing because he was originally meant to be joinable. These desires weren't terribly compatible, and, "Uh, how is Jowan supposed to have knocked down both Greagor and Irving when he doesn't even know Blood Wound?" is the result of them trying for both.

[Starbuck_II]

Blood Magic is a lot more powerful conceptually than it is when you can use it.

For the story, they wanted a terrifying, worth-dealing-with-demons-for power against with only the mightiest of non-blood mages can even hope to stand, which enables an apprentice to overpower the leaders of the Circle and the Templars. For the abilities the player can access, though, they didn't want one specialization to eclipse the other three--they may also have been limited in how much blood magic they wanted Jowan to start out knowing because he was originally meant to be joinable. These desires weren't terribly compatible, and, "Uh, how is Jowan supposed to have knocked down both Greagor and Irving when he doesn't even know Blood Wound?" is the result of them trying for both.

So Jowan combined powers: Blood Earthquake! Like Earthquake but stronger because a Blood Mage created the spell. :smallbiggrin:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hypocrite. Well, less of a hypocrite now, because you've changed your stated beliefs to more match your actions, but a hypocrite in light of your previous statements.
My previous statements were wrong.

Why do you need money? Oh, right, to buy your fancy fashionable armor. Sacrificing innocence (potentially) for fashion doesn't seem particularly admirable.
Not so much fashion as it is completionism. Kind of started with Fable: The Lost Chapters, when I'd get as much money as I could so I could get all the artifacts...

Or stop caring so much about money.
Hard...to...do...

Nothing particularly wrong with what you're doing (at least, compared to the inherently violent nature of the adventurer), it's just that your self-righteousness about it is a wee bit irksome. Sorry if I snapped too hard about it; take this post with a grain of levity.
Yeah, my love affair with the paladin archetype kind of makes me react strongly.

[Mr.Bookworm]

So Jowan combined powers: Blood Earthquake! Like Earthquake but stronger because a Blood Mage created the spell. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, doesn't he actually know Earthquake when you take control of him in the Fade?

It's quite possible he used Earthquake with Blood Magic (the ability) turned on so he didn't waste all of his mana in one shot. As someone else pointed out, he didn't need to beat them in a straight up fight, he just needed to get away.

Furthermore, it seems pretty likely he or Lily already had a contact set up waiting to take them to the mainland.


Blood Magic is a lot more powerful conceptually than it is when you can use it.

For the story, they wanted a terrifying, worth-dealing-with-demons-for power against with only the mightiest of non-blood mages can even hope to stand, which enables an apprentice to overpower the leaders of the Circle and the Templars. For the abilities the player can access, though, they didn't want one specialization to eclipse the other three--they may also have been limited in how much blood magic they wanted Jowan to start out knowing because he was originally meant to be joinable. These desires weren't terribly compatible, and, "Uh, how is Jowan supposed to have knocked down both Greagor and Irving when he doesn't even know Blood Wound?" is the result of them trying for both.

I would actually say it's more of your character being a novice blood mage, even towards the end.

You know the basics of blood magic, which the demon taught you, and you learn or discover the more powerful basics as you go along, but you never actually learn the more advanced tricks that other blood mages have used.

[Kish]

Yeah, doesn't he actually know Earthquake when you take control of him in the Fade?
No, he does not.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You know, I wonder how many people would enjoy a game more if they just followed the MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

I really don't feel that quibbling over Jowan's escape contributes anything meaningful to my Dragon Age experience.

[ZeroNumerous]

You know, I wonder how many people would enjoy a game more if they just followed the MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

Some people like questioning the designer's intentions. Personally, I've found it much more enjoyable to analyze certain games than to actually play them(Majora's Mask, I'm looking at you).

[Dienekes]

You know, I wonder how many people would enjoy a game more if they just followed the MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

I really don't feel that quibbling over Jowan's escape contributes anything meaningful to my Dragon Age experience.

What are you talking about? Games are serious business!

That terrible attempt at a joke aside, people will always argue over something that they think was done poorly. If the best they can come up with is that a blood mage escaped in a weird way, that's quite a testament to the game.

[Cristo Meyers]

You know, I wonder how many people would enjoy a game more if they just followed the MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

I really don't feel that quibbling over Jowan's escape contributes anything meaningful to my Dragon Age experience.

Because discussion of various aspects of the game tends to happen in a discussion thread?

[ZeroNumerous]

Because discussion of various aspects of the game tends to happen in a discussion thread?


Broodmother. Discuss. :smalltongue:

[Cristo Meyers]

Broodmother. Discuss. :smalltongue:

No, still having nightmares.

[Dire Ferret]

I think the broodmother should be a romance option.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think the broodmother should be a romance option.

Tell me you're joking! I'm an FA and even I find it disgusting.

[Kish]

You know, I wonder how many people would enjoy a game more if they just followed the MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).
Interestingly, that was pretty much my reaction when you were posting, "Will this gear work? How about if I change...?"

[Faulty]

I wish dog was a bisexual romance option.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Broodmother concept is sexist. Males corrupted by the taint turn into one darkspawn. Females turn into broodmothers, which spawn dozens/hundreds/etc. of darkspawn. WTF?

Also, since Qunari turn into Ogres, I think there's a very strong incentive to genocide Qunari if the Blight ever turns their way.

[Kish]

Read the codex entry on broodmothers again. Males corrupted by the taint go mad or, if they get enough, die, as do most females. Some people speculate that darkspawn are corrupted former humans/dwarves/elves/qunari, but they're wrong. All darkspawn come from broodmothers.

Also, if there's a Blight in the Qunari homeland, the correct response is to ignore the Blight itself and let it spread freely while you attack the qunari? Whatever you say, Teryn Loghain.

[Khosan]

Broodmother concept is sexist. Males corrupted by the taint turn into one darkspawn. Females turn into broodmothers, which spawn dozens/hundreds/etc. of darkspawn. WTF?

Also, since Qunari turn into Ogres, I think there's a very strong incentive to genocide Qunari if the Blight ever turns their way.

It's hardly sexist. The gender which makes babies mutates into a semi-humanoid blob which makes Darkspawn.

[ZeroNumerous]

Read the codex entry on broodmothers again. Males corrupted by the taint die, as do most females. All darkspawn come from broodmothers.

Actually, males corrupted by the taint become slaves to darkspawn, die or are mutated into darkspawn.


Also, if there's a Blight in the Qunari homeland, the correct response is to ignore the blight in favor of letting it spread freely while you attack the qunari? Whatever you say, Teryn Loghain.

Oh hell ya. Imagine a hundred broodmothers producing an Ogre just once every hour. How long will it be until there are too many ogres to make defeating the Blight an impossibility? The Qunari should be eradicated immediately. No waiting until a Blight comes.

[Jackel]

I think the broodmother should be a romance option.

Oh definitely. She reminds me of Ursula from Little Mermaid and I always had a thing for her.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Interestingly, that was pretty much my reaction when you were posting, "Will this gear work? How about if I change...?"

That's about gameplay though, not plot.

[Kish]

Actually, males corrupted by the taint become slaves to darkspawn, die or are mutated into darkspawn.

Again, no. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex:_Creatures Scroll down to "broodmother." That people can actually become darkspawn other than broodmothers is something some people believe in the setting, contradicted by the truth you learn during the course of the game.


Oh hell ya. Imagine a hundred broodmothers producing an Ogre just once every hour. How long will it be until there are too many ogres to make defeating the Blight an impossibility? The Qunari should be eradicated immediately. No waiting until a Blight comes.
Then we should wipe out humans, dwarves, and elves, too. No more hurlocks, genlocks, or shrieks!

Or, you know, maybe the smart thing to do would be to go into the Deep Roads and wipe out the darkspawn rather than waiting for them to find the other Old Gods and come up to the surface...nah. Eliminating the darkspawn by attacking the darkspawn? That's crazy-talk. Genocidal war on other nations of sapients it is!

That's about gameplay though, not plot.
And?

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's hardly sexist. The gender which makes babies mutates into a semi-humanoid blob which makes Darkspawn.

Nestled in the middle of people advocating broodmother romances, I assumed it would be taken as non-serious. :P

[Cristo Meyers]

Nestled in the middle of people advocating broodmother romances, I assumed it would be taken as non-serious. :P

You give the internet far too much credit.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And?
Discussing gameplay optimization is different from discussing plot holes. The latter cannot be changed as they are a part of the game itself, unable to be altered by any means short of modding the campaign.

Gameplay optimization CAN be changed, since the advice one recieves can aid them in altering their playstyle to make the gameplaying experience different.

[Kish]

Discussing gameplay optimization is different from discussing plot holes.

They have differences and similarities. One of their similarities is that they're both on-topic for this thread. I rolled my eyes at the questions about armor, sure, but I kept it to myself at the time. Do you seriously consider asking about which set of armor to use to be qualitatively superior to discussing the plot? Not just as in "you, personally, are more interested in it," but as in, "it's appropriate to both post lists of gear you use and snipe at people who care more about the plot in this thread"? I certainly hope not.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, I don't believe I do. But I don't really feel like I can really say anything else at the moment since I will not be able to continue playing the game for a while, and there has been very little response to my last major post, which I had been hoping would allow me to be able to relate to other people who have arrived or passed that point in the game.

[warty goblin]

Discussing gameplay optimization is different from discussing plot holes. The latter cannot be changed as they are a part of the game itself, unable to be altered by any means short of modding the campaign.

Gameplay optimization CAN be changed, since the advice one recieves can aid them in altering their playstyle to make the gameplaying experience different.
Ah, but discussion of the plot can alter your perception of the plot and story, and therefore your experience of it in just as real a way as +2 to hit will change your gameplay.

[Faulty]

It's hardly sexist. The gender which makes babies mutates into a semi-humanoid blob which makes Darkspawn.

Eh, I have a bit of a problem with the Broodmothers.

It really capitalizes off sexual violence and violence against women. It's Rape As Drama (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama). Not to mention females are the ones resigned to the horrible fate of becoming broodmothers while males get off the hook by just dying.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yes, but this discussion of whether Jowan is using abilities that technically do not exist within the game and took down two purportedly powerful individuals in his escape from the Circle Tower has done nothing to change my perception of Jowan as an incredibly misguided but ultimately sympathetic character.

[Faulty]

Then skip the posts about it.

[Tussy the Druid]

Hey forumites, sorry to topic shift. I didn't want to start my own thread, but I still wanted to ask: I have a 360 and a PC. Which would be better to play Dragon Age on? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? (If this has been discussed, I ask you politely point me to the discussion)

Thanks in advance.

[Gralamin]

Hey forumites, sorry to topic shift. I didn't want to start my own thread, but I still wanted to ask: I have a 360 and a PC. Which would be better to play Dragon Age on? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? (If this has been discussed, I ask you politely point me to the discussion)

Thanks in advance.

Advantages of the XBOX is it works for sure on there.

Advantages of the PC is the game was made for PC more then the other consoles, and thus you get the "Best" experience on PC.

--------

On the Archdemon:
ARRRRRRRGGGHHHH. So, Shale, Alistar, Myself (Mage) And Zevran are trying to fight the archdemon. Everything goes well until it gets on that freaking side area. Then, my mage can only attack it while standing in an easily swarmed place, and other then that, I can have Shale slowly pelt it to death. The Ballistas keep breaking so no help there.

Suggestions?

[warty goblin]

Hey forumites, sorry to topic shift. I didn't want to start my own thread, but I still wanted to ask: I have a 360 and a PC. Which would be better to play Dragon Age on? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? (If this has been discussed, I ask you politely point me to the discussion)

Thanks in advance.
Pretty much everything I've read indicates the PC simply plays better, with better controls and interface, as well as the ability to zoom farther out. It also seems to play differently, with more enemies being thrown at the player.

[Zevox]

On the Archdemon:
ARRRRRRRGGGHHHH. So, Shale, Alistar, Myself (Mage) And Zevran are trying to fight the archdemon. Everything goes well until it gets on that freaking side area. Then, my mage can only attack it while standing in an easily swarmed place, and other then that, I can have Shale slowly pelt it to death. The Ballistas keep breaking so no help there.

Suggestions?
Ignore the Archdemon, kill the mooks. The point of that part is that you have to fight off the Darkspawn coming to the Archdemon's aid before you continue the fight with the Archdemon itself. This is where the two generals would show up if you didn't kill them in advance, incidentally.
Zevox

[Gralamin]

Ignore the Archdemon, kill the mooks. The point of that part is that you have to fight off the Darkspawn coming to the Archdemon's aid before you continue the fight with the Archdemon itself. This is where the two generals would show up if you didn't kill them in advance, incidentally.
Zevox

That's odd, because I eventually had Shale hit him enough he came back without killing the mooks. Good to know though - they could of made that bit a lot clearer

[JadedDM]

ARRRRRRRGGGHHHH. So, Shale, Alistar, Myself (Mage) And Zevran are trying to fight the archdemon. Everything goes well until it gets on that freaking side area. Then, my mage can only attack it while standing in an easily swarmed place, and other then that, I can have Shale slowly pelt it to death. The Ballistas keep breaking so no help there.

Suggestions?

Rogues can fix broken ballistas in the same way they can disarm traps.

[Gralamin]

Rogues can fix broken ballistas in the same way they can disarm traps.

Yeah, But Zevran's skill isn't high enough for that.

[Dienekes]

Eh, I have a bit of a problem with the Broodmothers.

It really capitalizes off sexual violence and violence against women. It's Rape As Drama (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama). Not to mention females are the ones resigned to the horrible fate of becoming broodmothers while males get off the hook by just dying.

Maybe it's my inherent love of Alan More, or that I can stomach quite a bit, but this never really bothers me. So long as it is actively shown how terrible such an event is (which I would definitely argue Broodmothers portray) I have no real problem with it. In a world where murder is just around the corner, I figure other unforgivable actions (to me anyway) are as well.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I haven't really encountered the Broodmother yet (my benefactor has sent me to go kill Jarvia), so I don't know what to say. I know how broodmothers are made, but it seems more weird than repulsive to me.

[SilentDragoon]

Just wait til you meet Hespith and you'll reform your opinion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't know. I hear people keep talking about the whole Deep Roads section of the game as being annoyingly difficult (though perhaps not as irritating as the Fade section of the Broken Circle quest is purported to be, which I really didn't find all that annoying), and the Broodmother as being the scarriest thing in the game. Yes, the broodmother looks nasty. Yes, how an ordinary person becomes a broodmother is creepy. Yes, Hespith sings a purportedly creepy song about it. But you still go into the broodmother's lair and kill it. If they'd REALLY wanted to make it scary, they'd have you hear about the broodmothers, maybe even see them, but not actually engage them in combat. In my opinion, the scariness of a monster drops rapidly when you're a well-armed Grey Warden backed up by equally well-armed friends. If you can just charge in and stab it until it dies it's not THAT big of a threat.

[warty goblin]

I don't know. I hear people keep talking about the whole Deep Roads section of the game as being annoyingly difficult (though perhaps not as irritating as the Fade section of the Broken Circle quest is purported to be, which I really didn't find all that annoying), and the Broodmother as being the scarriest thing in the game. Yes, the broodmother looks nasty. Yes, how an ordinary person becomes a broodmother is creepy. Yes, Hespith sings a purportedly creepy song about it. But you still go into the broodmother's lair and kill it. If they'd REALLY wanted to make it scary, they'd have you hear about the broodmothers, maybe even see them, but not actually engage them in combat. In my opinion, the scariness of a monster drops rapidly when you're a well-armed Grey Warden backed up by equally well-armed friends. If you can just charge in and stab it until it dies it's not THAT big of a threat.

Clearly you have never played STALKER.

Hopelessness is not being able to defeat an enemy. Fear is the apprehension that you could defeat the enemy, but will fail. STALKER's bloodsuckers fulfill that later to a T because you will fail. And then they will eat your corpse. Keep in mind that this in a game where you get a knife that can alt-fire kill anything in one hit, and a bloodsucker will still feast on your flesh as often as not.

Although I agree that RPGs have trouble trying to conjure pure visceral terror. That whole level up business sort of gets in the way of the 'I'm gonna die' feelings.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, I've never played S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Though I think I kind of get it. Would the Deathclaws of Fallout 3 be a close match in terms of deadliness?

[Archangel Yuki]

No, I've never played S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Though I think I kind of get it. Would the Deathclaws of Fallout 3 be a close match in terms of deadliness?

Maybe if you ran around naked with cows strapped to you while wielding a pistol with half a clip left, it might be close.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see...

Is it nerdy that I've been trying to think of theme songs for the game and its characters?

Bloodbound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSDsYmZREwo&feature=related), from Hammerfall just seems to fit the game pretty well.

[warty goblin]

No, I've never played S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Though I think I kind of get it. Would the Deathclaws of Fallout 3 be a close match in terms of deadliness?

Maybe in terms of deadliness, but not even close in terms of terror.

There are two ways you generally know there's a bloodsucker around. The first is you hear it. The second is that it tears your face off.

Bloodsuckers spend most of their time invisible, and can even attack when mostly in that state. And when they do, this happens

http://www.edb-tidende.dk/a_pic/200703_stalker/screenshot5.png

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlqxFKL0l58) gives a pretty good idea of how Bloodsucker encounters usually go down*.

They often hunt in packs. Underground. Where it's so dark you can barely see them when they are visible.

And when they kill you, they eat your body. There's an actual animation for this.

The bunker with the Brain Scorcher is full of them, and I have never had a more frightening game experience than fighting my way through to the bottom level.

*Although the player was a moron. First of all shooting the corpse wasted bullets and weapon condition. Secondly the knife opens crates without using ammo, or making nearly as much noise, and after the howl he should have known something was in the area. Thirdly after he shot the crate open, and shot the corpse, he forgot to reload. Never. Ever. Ever keep a gun less than fully loaded in STALKER if you've got the bullets.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wow. That WAS scary! Makes me never wanna try that game!

Still, it's more scary than the broodmother seems to be.

[Philistine]

On Jowan, an Alternate Hypothesis:
If you talk to Jowan about Connor, he'll tell you something along the lines of:
I'm certain that the kid doesn't have the power, the training, or the experience to summon a demon. Not deliberately. Not reliably. Not with control. But just maybe, if he were desperate enough, he might have blundered into it unintentionally - possibly even unwittingly.

Perhaps much the same applies to Jowan's flight from the Tower. Certainly he was in a tight spot; maybe it brought out his very best effort. This might also explain why the Templars were able to capture him later - Jowan wasn't able to reproduce the effect that got him out of the Tower, because even he didn't know exactly what he'd done or how.

Also, Irving and Greagoir were at Ground Zero of whatever Jowan uncorked, and appear to have gotten the worst of it. Certainly the PC seems to be up and about before either of them even begins to stir. We may not be able to completely eliminate the deus ex machina factor, but we can whittle it down quite a bit.

Also, expanding on something Cristo said earlier:
The Harrowing isn't about power, it's about character and control. By turning to Blood Magic to "make (himself) a better Mage," Jowan had essentially already failed the Harrowing. That doesn't say word one about his power, though. Does anyone suppose that Morrigan ever went through the Harrowing? Or Flemeth? I don't think so. Yet are they any less powerful for that? Again, I don't think so. Why assume that Jowan lacks power, merely because he failed a test of character?

Conversely, I don't recall seeing any mention of Irving's power in game - he's First Enchanter because of his political and administrative talents. And while Greagoir is surely a veteran Templar, the position he currently holds seems to call for more leadership and oversight, and less active Mage-hunting. Maybe his Mage-hunting skills have atrophied since he took a desk job. Maybe he's just past his prime. Maybe it's not so outlandish that these two should go down hard to Jowan's "sucker punch."

On the Broodmother, and more:
What the Warden and company learn about the darkspawn life cycle in the Dead Trenches definitely lends credence to the notion that darkspawn are corrupted versions of the terrestrial races. It seems possible that the Chantry's tale of their origin is more or less correct - that the first darkspawn were mages who traveled bodily into the Fade and came back twisted.

That said... There is not enough ick in the world. The buildup was creepy and disturbing; but when you eventually get the whole story out of Branka, it's just repugnant. I don't expect that I'll ever earn whatever the counterpart to the "Liberator" achievement is, because I can't imagine any character I would choose to play siding with Branka after hearing her story.

It's impressive to me that a fictional character should inspire such visceral revulsion, but it's also kind of a letdown. I mean, I can imagine a mage-hating character choosing to nuke the Circle instead of saving it. I can imagine a character getting impatient in the Brecilian Forest and wiping out either the Dalish or the Werewolves, rather than bringing the elder and the spirit together and breaking the curse. I can imagine playing a character who might decide that the Abomination in Redcliff must die, or another who would be willing to allow the mother to sacrifice herself for her child. I can easily imagine a non-Dwarf siding with either Bhelen or Harrowmont in Orzammar. But allying with Branka against Caridin? Sorry, I just don't see it. Likewise the Urn: even if your character isn't a fan of the Chantry, what exactly is the point of dumping dragon blood into the Ashes, from your character's point of view? Mere vandalism? Avoiding a fight (one which I don't recall being exceptionally difficult) with what's-his-name the cult leader? I just don't grok what the incentive there is supposed to be. Maybe that's just me, though.

[warty goblin]

Wow. That WAS scary! Makes me never wanna try that game!

Still, it's more scary than the broodmother seems to be.

Oh in the game? It's worse. So, so much worse. And yet totally awesome.

But yes, I think most RPGs can't really do terror because everything pretty much exists for one of three purposes:
1) Something the player talks to and/or sleeps with.
2) Something the player kills and gains power and wealth from.
3) Window dressing. Stuff that's just there to try to camouflage the binary divide between the other two.

The second category is really the kicker, because killing enemies is always rewarded it sends messages to the Pavlovian part of the player's brain, and not the lizard brain that fears for your survival. So basically you're thinking about the shinies and not "I'm gonna DIIIEEEE!!"

The really brutal thing in STALKER is that you don't get anything for killing a Bloodsucker- in fact you are left weaker for it due to wear and tear on armor and weapons, and the inevitable consumption of copious amounts of bullets and medical supplies.

[Mewtarthio]

It's impressive to me that a fictional character should inspire such visceral revulsion, but it's also kind of a letdown. I mean, I can imagine a mage-hating character choosing to nuke the Circle instead of saving it. I can imagine a character getting impatient in the Brecilian Forest and wiping out either the Dalish or the Werewolves, rather than bringing the elder and the spirit together and breaking the curse. I can imagine playing a character who might decide that the Abomination in Redcliff must die, or another who would be willing to allow the mother to sacrifice herself for her child. I can easily imagine a non-Dwarf siding with either Bhelen or Harrowmont in Orzammar. But allying with Branka against Caridin? Sorry, I just don't see it. Likewise the Urn: even if your character isn't a fan of the Chantry, what exactly is the point of dumping dragon blood into the Ashes, from your character's point of view? Mere vandalism? Avoiding a fight (one which I don't recall being exceptionally difficult) with what's-his-name the cult leader? I just don't grok what the incentive there is supposed to be. Maybe that's just me, though.

The incentive to side with Branka is that she will keep the Anvil of the Void intact and use it to produce more golems, giving the dwarves a better chance against the darkspawn. That's why the 360 Achievement is called "Pragmatist." Nobody denies that she's evil, but you have to ally with her to get the Anvil.

As for defiling the Urn, your incentive there is you get access to the Reaver specialization. True, you only need to unlock once in any playthrough to get it forever, but that's the in-character justification.

[Khosan]

On the Broodmother, and more:
That said... There is not enough ick in the world. The buildup was creepy and disturbing; but when you eventually get the whole story out of Branka, it's just repugnant. I don't expect that I'll ever earn whatever the counterpart to the "Liberator" achievement is, because I can't imagine any character I would choose to play siding with Branka after hearing her story.

I sided with Branka. The achievement is called "Pragmatist," and that's really what you have to be in order to side with her.

Morals had nothing to do with it really. Siding with Branka nets you golems for your army. After I'd spent so much time in the Deep Roads I was seriously starting to doubt my preparation for the final battle. When given the choice between 'a sea of steel warriors at my back' for a war against a nigh unstoppable horde and feeling good about the decision I made, it seemed like the better choice.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

One slight problem in regards to Irving's power:
If you choose to, you can ask Irving himself to go into the Fade to save Connor, at which point you actually take control of Irving as a character. And in addition to his administrative skill, he's got quite a few spells in his arsenal. More than Jowan if you take control of him.

This means that Irving would need high Magic and Willpower scores, which would give him pretty decent resistance to some puny blood magic "sucker punch."
And about siding with Branka:
I don't have the full story, but it seems that if you sincerely believe the end justifies the means, then Branka might have a point. Especially if you're a dwarf noble, since part of the dwarf noble schtick seems to be about gaining as much power as you can and struggling to keep it. Arguably anyone could see this as a possibility if they valued power over everything else, since you'll get golems in your army, which might be able to tip the balance further in your army's favor when the final battle comes.

A similar justification could be given for siding with Kolgrim. You've seen how his cultists fight, and you want to have that power for yourself too. And Morrigan also points out that Kolgrim and his cult will be endebted to you for your help, which may come in handy in the future, especially since they've got dragons hanging around. And I could see some characters, particularly mages, Dalish elves and the dwarves having enough disrespect for the Chantry to defile the Ashes. A mage would probably do it to give a big middle-finger to the religion that oppresses their kind. A Dalish might do it out of bitterness for the Chantry's betrayal of the Dalish, driving them from their homeland centuries ago. The dwarves wouldn't feel any special connection because they believe the Chant of Light's nugsh*t, so they show the superiority of the ancestors by saying "Eff-U!" to the pushy human religion by ruining one of their holy relics.

[pingcode20]

With regards to Branka:
I agree that it was very much a utilitarian choice there - side with a monster and get the golems, or side with the moral guy and lose the golems.

But it's not just the power. It's to do with the dwarves as they are portrayed in the game. They're down to their last city, and they're still losing the fight. Everything points to them dying a slow death, and without the golems they're essentially doomed. Endings aside, mind - it's only unnecessary in hindsight.

As a result, my dwarf chose to keep the anvil - Branka may be an utter monster, but she's the only one who can unlock the secrets of the anvil again, and he can't honestly afford to give away the key to winning the war against the darkspawn just because it's a painful process.

Although, I was a little disappointed to see the army of golems turn out to be four guys. It makes sense though, I suppose - not enough time to make a lot. Still, it's a bit of a pity. I was looking forward to mashing the darkspawn with an actual army of golems.

[Philistine]

With regards to Branka:
I agree that it was very much a utilitarian choice there - side with a monster and get the golems, or side with the moral guy and lose the golems.

But it's not just the power. It's to do with the dwarves as they are portrayed in the game. They're down to their last city, and they're still losing the fight. Everything points to them dying a slow death, and without the golems they're essentially doomed. Endings aside, mind - it's only unnecessary in hindsight.

As a result, my dwarf chose to keep the anvil - Branka may be an utter monster, but she's the only one who can unlock the secrets of the anvil again, and he can't honestly afford to give away the key to winning the war against the darkspawn just because it's a painful process.

Although, I was a little disappointed to see the army of golems turn out to be four guys. It makes sense though, I suppose - not enough time to make a lot. Still, it's a bit of a pity. I was looking forward to mashing the darkspawn with an actual army of golems.
Yes. The Dwarves are down to their last city, and their population is dwindling. In fact, the situation is so bad that Casteless are being elevated to join Noble Houses if they can conceive a child with a noble, because the Dwarves are that desperate to increase their population. Branka's big idea, OTOH, will reduce the population even further. So even on a purely pragmatic level, her plan does not seem to be entirely sound. IMO.

And by the time I'd fought my way through the Deep Roads to the Anvil, my character was fair convinced that he could cut his way through pretty much any number of darkspawn so long as he had Al, Winnie, and Rangy Lil backing him.

Ashes, Ashes, we all fall down
My Dwarven Berserker wasn't all that impressed with the way Kolgrim's Reavers fought, TBH. :smallbiggrin: But if not "to unlock Reaver training," the other reason proposed... seems to boil down to petty vandalism. I'm a flippin' Gray Warden, y'all, on a mission to save (my corner of) the world - I don't need the kind of flak that'd draw. What is it Duncan says to Alistair early on? "We need allies, so don't be antagonizing our allies just for giggles"? That.

[Avilan the Grey]

...Ok... I got Starfang, and I am drooling over it.
I am seriously thinking about "wasting" six points of STR so I get the 31 needed to use it for myself rather than to give it to Alistair... Although I really should go 2 DEX 1 CUN every level up for my rogue...

[pingcode20]

Yes. The Dwarves are down to their last city, and their population is dwindling. In fact, the situation is so bad that Casteless are being elevated to join Noble Houses if they can conceive a child with a noble, because the Dwarves are that desperate to increase their population. Branka's big idea, OTOH, will reduce the population even further. So even on a purely pragmatic level, her plan does not seem to be entirely sound. IMO.

And by the time I'd fought my way through the Deep Roads to the Anvil, my character was fair convinced that he could cut his way through pretty much any number of darkspawn so long as he had Al, Winnie, and Rangy Lil backing him.

The way I saw it, if you start using golems as warriors, you're getting a net gain - A single steel golem is roughly the equal for an entire squad of normal warriors, and takes only a single dwarf to make. In fact, it will outfight an entire squad of normal warriors.

Yes, in the simple sense making golems will reduce the dwarven population even further, but considering their combat prowess, arguably using them increases the dwarven population because what was enough for one squad of warriors now fights like a small army. Plus, they can be banked for the future.

Although, I don't think anything ever really pointed to the whole Noble Hunter deal being in place specifically due to the pressure on Orzammar from the darkspawn hordes - OTOH, it was just because dwarves have a naturally low fertility rate and ergo anything that improves the chances of conception is considered desirable.

[Drascin]

Or stop caring so much about money.

Nothing particularly wrong with what you're doing (at least, compared to the inherently violent nature of the adventurer), it's just that your self-righteousness about it is a wee bit irksome. Sorry if I snapped too hard about it; take this post with a grain of levity.

Yeah, I mostly manage, financially, despite being almost unerringly Good (okay, there are times when I do snap a bit and threaten people into stopping being idiotic, but sometimes one just gets the urge to growl "come on, people are dying while you guys discuss semantics, so stop or I'm cramming my staff where the sun don't shine and pulling the trigger"). Of course, the main reason for this abundance of cash is likely the composition of my team. Shale, Leliana, Wynne, and myself as mage. Being able to sell every single heavy armor I come across without a care in the world allows me to give coin to every beggar that asks, tell those with evil missions to shove it, and still have a good reserve purse for emergency buys.

Well, I did keep the Revenants' armor, because it looked cool, but other than that, none. Poor Sten is still in starting gear :smalltongue:.

Anyway, I'm in Orzammar right now. Damn, but is dwarven society irritating. Tell me I can indeed get poor Dagna out of there. I figure, even if she can't do actual magic, she has all the makings of a walking library (I loved Wynne's reaction. "Uh... not even I knew some of that...") and a master magic item crafter. I ended up supporting Harrowmont, but I'm still not sure. I mean, I had to choose without more than random bits hearsay about both participants. The Arena battles were fun though, and I don't know how I lived without Glyph of Repulsion before :smallbiggrin:. Going against Jarvia's cartel next.

[Comet]

The Broodmothers aren't terrifying enemies to face. They are, however and in my opinion, utterly creepy as they are.


A woman gets abused by Darkspawn. This abuse leads to emotional trauma that in turn leads to insanity, since no mind can withstand the horror of being raped and tortured for days without pause.

To add insult to injury, the woman gets infected by the unnatural seed of the Darkspawn. This causes her body to twist and turn into a lump of skin and fat that lives through cannibalism. At this point the insanity can be considered a blessing, since the woman can't really understand the horrible state she's in.

Now, either she continues this mad existence for what seems to be an eternity, or some group of knights in bloodied armour comes in and stabs her to death just because she has been made the vessel for more Darkspawn to be birthed from.

When I fought the Broodmother for the first time, I didn't feel like I was battling some horrible bio-horror that should make me want to kill it with fire.
I felt like I was slaughtering a pained animal that was once something else. The animal happened to fight back, which is pretty understandable, since even the insanity and pain couldn't take away her natural urge to keep on living. Even if she doesn't have anything to live for.


So yeah, I think the concept is plenty scary and made the Dead Trenches quite an interesting squick-scenario.

[Morty]

Re: Branka
My character sided with her - although she's named Branda in the Polish version - as well, again because being able to create more golems to fight off the Darkspawn is simply too good to pass up. She's nuts and she's evil, but the Anvil is useful. Let the dwarves sort out their moral issues later.

[Cristo Meyers]

The Broodmothers aren't terrifying enemies to face. They are, however and in my opinion, utterly creepy as they are.


A woman gets abused by Darkspawn. This abuse leads to emotional trauma that in turn leads to insanity, since no mind can withstand the horror of being raped and tortured for days without pause.

To add insult to injury, the woman gets infected by the unnatural seed of the Darkspawn. This causes her body to twist and turn into a lump of skin and fat that lives through cannibalism. At this point the insanity can be considered a blessing, since the woman can't really understand the horrible state she's in.

Now, either she continues this mad existence for what seems to be an eternity, or some group of knights in bloodied armour comes in and stabs her to death just because she has been made the vessel for more Darkspawn to be birthed from.

When I fought the Broodmother for the first time, I didn't feel like I was battling some horrible bio-horror that should make me want to kill it with fire.
I felt like I was slaughtering a pained animal that was once something else. The animal happened to fight back, which is pretty understandable, since even the insanity and pain couldn't take away her natural urge to keep on living. Even if she doesn't have anything to live for.


So yeah, I think the concept is plenty scary and made the Dead Trenches quite an interesting squick-scenario.

I had the exact opposite reaction. I wanted that thing dead and quickly. It's bad enough that damn chant is burned into my memory.

Re: Branka: sorry, but I just can't follow Capt Janeway. Yes, Voyager sucked that badly.

Ok, ok, in seriousness...the current character just has that massive an aversion to slavery, but I agree that it really doesn't seem like that good of a case for keeping the Anvil. Unless that thing can churn out golems like a Ford production line then you're better off with the dwarven army. You're already outnumbered by Darkspawn what, 3 to 1, maybe more? Waiting for golems would just make that worse.

[Jackel]

On the UrnLikewise the Urn: even if your character isn't a fan of the Chantry, what exactly is the point of dumping dragon blood into the Ashes, from your character's point of view? Mere vandalism? Avoiding a fight (one which I don't recall being exceptionally difficult) with what's-his-name the cult leader? I just don't grok what the incentive there is supposed to be. Maybe that's just me, though.

My character was moved by the sight of Andastre to support her cause. All hail Andastre! And Reaver Specialization... But mostly Andastre!

Ok so he did it for the power and support of a Dragon Cult....

[Faulty]

Maybe it's my inherent love of Alan More, or that I can stomach quite a bit, but this never really bothers me. So long as it is actively shown how terrible such an event is (which I would definitely argue Broodmothers portray) I have no real problem with it. In a world where murder is just around the corner, I figure other unforgivable actions (to me anyway) are as well.

It was scary but just... I think the abuse of women is sort of cheap.

[Tren]

It was scary but just... I think the abuse of women is sort of cheap.

Cheap in what way? That it's included just for shock value? That it was treated carelessly and used as a device to advance the plot? I don't know about that. Certainly it was used to advance the plot in regards to the Darkspawn, but I think it was treated quite appropriately. It's shown as vile, horrifying, and profoundly wrong in a way beyond description. It certainly doesn't conform to any of the pitfalls listed in that tvtropes article. Nobody makes cheap jokes, it's not used as a blunt tool to promote character development, and it's most certainly not taken lightly. If you think Bioware is simply capitalizing on sexual violence towards women for shock, I think it's because you're looking for it.

[Kish]

Anyway, I'm in Orzammar right now. Damn, but is dwarven society irritating. Tell me I can indeed get poor Dagna out of there.

Assuming you didn't wipe out the Circle of Magi, Irving will be willing to let her study there. If they're gone, she's out of luck.

I figure, even if she can't do actual magic, she has all the makings of a walking library (I loved Wynne's reaction. "Uh... not even I knew some of that...") and a master magic item crafter. I ended up supporting Harrowmont, but I'm still not sure. I mean, I had to choose without more than random bits hearsay about both participants.

Epilogue spoilers.

Bhelen is a slimy bastard, but sincerely wishes to get rid of the caste system; Harrowmont is personally honorable but is a traditionalist who will avoid changing anything about dwarven society, except to make them more rigid and isolationist.

[Cristo Meyers]

Assuming you didn't wipe out the Circle of Magi, Irving will be willing to let her study there. If they're gone, she's out of luck.

Though she might head off for the Tower anyway. She's a lively one.



Epilogue spoilers.

Bhelen is a slimy bastard, but sincerely wishes to get rid of the caste system; Harrowmont is personally honorable but is a traditionalist who will avoid changing anything about dwarven society, except to make them more rigid and isolationist.


By the end of the whole Orzammar arc I really just wanted to kill the both of them. Morrigan at her worst has nothing on the irritance factor of those two...

[Morty]

Alright, WTF.
Am I the only one for whom the battle with Cuauthrien and her soldiers at the end of Howe's mansion is unbeatable even at the Easy difficulty?

[Kish]

You're not really meant to beat her. You can...but if you lose there, you just get imprisoned, it's not Game Over.

[Cristo Meyers]

Alright, WTF.
Am I the only one for whom the battle with Cuauthrien and her soldiers at the end of Howe's mansion is unbeatable even at the Easy difficulty?

It's doable, just very difficult. I pulled it off, but only just.

First, you can surrender. You'll be taken to Fort Whatisname and have to escape. You'll meet Cuauthrien again outside the Landsmeet and have to kill her there, though.

If you fight, first thing you need to do is get the hell out of the main hall. Backtrack into the hallway so every single archer isn't pelting you. Cuauthrien will probably follow you, so take her there. She hits very hard and has a lot of HP (I honestly think killing the high dragon at the Temple of Andraste took less time), but can be taken down. For the archers: big AOE spells don't need line of sight to be cast. Sit back in the hallway, pull the camera back to an overhead view, and cast something like Tempest in the main hall. The real trick is keeping your other party members from haring off into the hall and taking a dozen crossbow bolts to the face.

[Morty]

Ah, I see. Normally, you can tell if the battle is supposed to be unbeatable or very, very hard for plot purposes, but in Dragon Age, it's not different enough from any other boss fight.
I tried to retreat and fight in the hallway, but all it did was to postpone the TPK. As soon as Morrigan moved a bit closer to the door, she died.

[Jackel]

Alright, WTF.
Am I the only one for whom the battle with Cuauthrien and her soldiers at the end of Howe's mansion is unbeatable even at the Easy difficulty?

Going from Bioware's forum, it's one of the toughest battles due to the abundant use of Scattershot. I had to take the easy way out myself (first-time through).

The easy way is also supposed to have some of the best dialogue if you let your companions rescue you

[SilentDragoon]

Ah, I see. Normally, you can tell if the battle is supposed to be unbeatable or very, very hard for plot purposes, but in Dragon Age, it's not different enough from any other boss fight.
I tried to retreat and fight in the hallway, but all it did was to postpone the TPK. As soon as Morrigan moved a bit closer to the door, she died.

I had a lot of trouble with that too, ended up surrendering, breaking out myself with negligible combat, then talking her out of fighting at the landsmeet as I really didn't want to kill her. So not only is surrender for once a decent viable option, you don't have to kill her for in essence doing her job.
This is oddly one of my favorite parts of the game as you can mostly talk/skill your way out of a huge mess.

[Cristo Meyers]

Ah, I see. Normally, you can tell if the battle is supposed to be unbeatable or very, very hard for plot purposes, but in Dragon Age, it's not different enough from any other boss fight.
I tried to retreat and fight in the hallway, but all it did was to postpone the TPK. As soon as Morrigan moved a bit closer to the door, she died.

Yeah, like I said, it's exceptionally difficult. I really only pulled through by luck and Cone of Cold spam to keep Cuauthrien from pounding me into the floor like a tent peg. Alistair and Leliana went down in seconds


I had a lot of trouble with that too, ended up surrendering, breaking out myself with negligible combat, then talking her out of fighting at the landsmeet as I really didn't want to kill her. So not only is surrender for once a decent viable option, you don't have to kill her for in essence doing her job.
This is oddly one of my favorite parts of the game as you can mostly talk/skill your way out of a huge mess.

See, I wanted her dead. There's doing your job and then there's willful ignorance. She was at Ostagar. She carried out Loghain's order to withdraw, leaving the king, Grey Wardens, and all those men to be slaughtered, and she's going to talk to me about loyalty and honor?

I grinned like the Cheshire Cat when I took her head off.

[Drascin]

Epilogue spoilers.

Bhelen is a slimy bastard, but sincerely wishes to get rid of the caste system; Harrowmont is personally honorable but is a traditionalist who will avoid changing anything about dwarven society, except to make them more rigid and isolationist.


...aw, man. And I overwrote the save too - the latest earlier save I have left is right before facing Zathrian. I do believe a Nice Job Breaking It Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero) is due about now :smallsigh:.

[Kish]

You do have the option to choose Bhelen for king later. I don't know what happens if you choose the one you've been opposing up to that point, though.

Bhelen's quest-giver, Vartag, might also still be willing to talk to you, I'm not sure.

[Morty]

Re: Cauthrein
I have to say, though the battle was frustrating, the part after it was indeed quite sweet. Finally I could get something done by talking and wit, not by slaughtering everyone in my way.

[SmartAlec]

First, you can surrender. You'll be taken to Fort Whatisname and have to escape. You'll meet Cuauthrien again outside the Landsmeet and have to kill her there, though.

My playthrough saw us both surrender to Cauthrien during the rescue of the Queen and managing to convince her to stand aside and allow us to enter the Landsmeet, with some persuasion checks. I don't think you have to fight her. I vaguely recall the conversation options being something about convincing her that Loghain's actions were dangerous.

This was as a Human Noble, I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

[Cristo Meyers]

My playthrough saw us both surrender to Cauthrien during the rescue of the Queen and managing to convince her to stand aside and allow us to enter the Landsmeet, with some persuasion checks. I don't think you have to fight her.

This was as a Human Noble, I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

Probably not. The only other time I've seen this was my wife's playthrough and her persuasion skills were...limited. I can't remember if it even gave her the option.

Me? I can sell ice to polar bears. But like I said, I wanted her dead.

[Kish]

Anyone has the Persuade dialogue options with Cauthrien. Their success may be dependent on Anora not having told her earlier that you were kidnapping Anora, though.

[Faulty]

I fought Cauthrien when trying to help Anora but managed to persuade her to stand down at the Landsmeet.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Plus, there's a major consequence to siding with Branka that doesn't happen until later:

Regardless of who's on the throne, the king of Orzammar will eventually decide not to support Branka's demands for dwarves to make golems. Desperate to make more, Branka will begin raiding the surface for people, causing the surfacers to retaliate. Branka's response to the attack is to trigger a seismic event, which prevents her attackers from reaching her, but also sealing the tunnels leading to Orzammar, cutting off the dwarves from the surface entirely.

Not. Good. No matter how you slice it. No matter how much of a pragmatist you are, supporting Branka's madness ultimately dooms the dwarves.

[Kish]

The smart thing to do, of course, would be for everyone--Dalish elves, magi, dwarves, humans, everyone you can gather, and preferably also some people you can't, like the Orlesians--to prioritize wiping out the darkspawn highly enough to send in a truly massive army to kill every darkspawn who can be found and reclaim the dwarves' old kingdom. But, people in the gameworld choose short-term solutions instead and pay for them later, whether those solutions are "let the dwarves worry about the darkspawn when there isn't an actual Blight" or, "sacrifice people to create nigh-invincible constructs to defend us."

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There's a reason for that. The Deep Roads go all over the world. Darkspawn have emerged in far northern lands, and even in the domain of the qunari (which I'm guessing is why Sten was ultimately sent). Kal-Sharok, the other surviving dwarf city, is clear on the other side of the continent. Cleaning out all the Deep Roads would probably take centuries, since they're so well-entrenched, they have nearly limitless numbers and there's no reliable way to survive down there. In the books, some of the biggest worries of Maric, Rowan, Katriel and Loghain when they risk the Deep Roads is whether they'll run out of basic things they need to survive, like food, water and even air.

If the entire world rose up and went to the Deep Roads, they'd likely all get massacred and the darkspawn would be free to go up to the surface completely unopposed.

[warty goblin]

There's a reason for that. The Deep Roads go all over the world. Darkspawn have emerged in far northern lands, and even in the domain of the qunari (which I'm guessing is why Sten was ultimately sent). Kal-Sharok, the other surviving dwarf city, is clear on the other side of the continent. Cleaning out all the Deep Roads would probably take centuries, since they're so well-entrenched, they have nearly limitless numbers and there's no reliable way to survive down there. In the books, some of the biggest worries of Maric, Rowan, Katriel and Loghain when they risk the Deep Roads is whether they'll run out of basic things they need to survive, like food, water and even air.

If the entire world rose up and went to the Deep Roads, they'd likely all get massacred and the darkspawn would be free to go up to the surface completely unopposed.

Now I'm confused. The Deep Roads are so full of Darkspawn that you can't clear them out, but you can't survive down there because there's not enough food water and air?

...So what do the Darkspawn eat, drink and breathe?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Now I'm confused. The Deep Roads are so full of Darkspawn that you can't clear them out, but you can't survive down there because there's not enough food water and air?

...So what do the Darkspawn eat, drink and breathe?

There are some vents that bring air down from the surface, thanks to the dwarves, but there are natural caverns where air may get bad. The Darkspawn wouldn't be in places where there isn't breathable air, but that means that places where there ARE air would be infested with them. Darkspawn eat their victims and seem to have no compunctions about eating each other in extreme cases. As for drinking, maybe they drink each others' blood as well? The darkspawn don't seem to behave like individual organisms as much as they do a corrupting disease, polluting all they come in contact with.

[Tavar]

Also, there are things that can survive in conditions we would consider toxic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Exactly. Without the ability to maintain the Deep Roads, hazards have developed that normal people wouldn't be able to handle, but darkspawn are a helluva lot more tenacious than ordinary people. And they multiply at a disturbingly massive rate.

[Morty]

Besides, it's not like the people in the real world always do what's necessary instead of squabbling.

[Cristo Meyers]

Well, there's also bound to be underground lakes and aquifers nearby the Roads. They were built for dwarven travel, there'd have to be "rest stops", so to speak.


Besides, it's not like the people in the real world always do what's necessary instead of squabbling.

I.E. Arl Howe.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, there's also bound to be underground lakes and aquifers nearby the Roads. They were built for dwarven travel, there'd have to be "rest stops", so to speak.

There IS that, yes. The reason it was a concern for Maric, Loghain, Rowan and Katriel was because they had no idea where they were going, and thus if they got lost they'd likely starve. The only reason they got out safely is because they ran into the Legion of the Dead, who gave them supplies and showed them the way out.

A full army, however, has a lot more mouths to feed than just four people. And even the dwarves have very little knowledge of where the Deep Roads go. They could survive thanks to the air vents, aquifers and captured nugs or deepstalkers or whatnot. But that can only go so far, and it likely can't support a whole army if that army doesn't know where it's going. In short, the darkspawn are here to stay.

[Drakyn]

Ah, I see. Normally, you can tell if the battle is supposed to be unbeatable or very, very hard for plot purposes, but in Dragon Age, it's not different enough from any other boss fight.
I tried to retreat and fight in the hallway, but all it did was to postpone the TPK. As soon as Morrigan moved a bit closer to the door, she died.

I know I'm a bit late for this, but I feel I should share a weird little story of how I handled this.

My warden was a champion. And for some odd reason - I never was able to precisely guess why, maybe it was switching areas, it certainly wasn't that bug with multiple Rallies I heard about, since he was the only champion in the group for some time - his Rally stacked on itself. I first noticed this after large amounts of archers fired at him for about three minutes straight in between Oghren hiding while waiting for Mighty Blow to recharge (yeah, yeah, achievement whore) without landing a single shot. So I checked his defense, and lo and behold, it and attack were both capped at 1000.
This puzzled me. So I did what any self-respecting gamer would've done: I exploited it. Bioware patched the game partway through my playthrough because I kept getting too many items and not enough coin (I was forced to sink to LEAVING STUFF BEHIND! The HORROR!) and had made some of the scaling completely borked, resulting in unnaturally difficult fights several times. I saw it as only fair that I got my turn at the cheese.
Long story short, I could be stunned by scatter shot, hit while stunned, and smacked with magic. That was about it. Yeah, that cheese saved that room for me.


On a different, narcissistic, speculating note, I played as a dwarf commoner and it was absolutely amazing how picking a dwarf origin managed to make my character the freshest heroic cliche I've ever played. Because in a game where people will notice and comment on that kind of thing, even if it's not exactly common, you realize.......when was the last time you saw a dwarf that wasn't a sidekick or comic relief? Well, in my case it was my trusty Baldur's Gate trilogy character, but in BG no one really notices what the hell race you are. Here? It's noted.

[warty goblin]

There IS that, yes. The reason it was a concern for Maric, Loghain, Rowan and Katriel was because they had no idea where they were going, and thus if they got lost they'd likely starve. The only reason they got out safely is because they ran into the Legion of the Dead, who gave them supplies and showed them the way out.

A full army, however, has a lot more mouths to feed than just four people. And even the dwarves have very little knowledge of where the Deep Roads go. They could survive thanks to the air vents, aquifers and captured nugs or deepstalkers or whatnot. But that can only go so far, and it likely can't support a whole army if that army doesn't know where it's going. In short, the darkspawn are here to stay.
Or they could play real dirty and start plugging up air vents.

[Cristo Meyers]

Or they could play real dirty and start plugging up air vents.

I say just bring down the tunnels. You can't clean them out, there's just too many of them. Plug the tunnels and watch the fun.

[Gralamin]

And potentially destroy ancient Dwarven architecture, lyrium veins, and various amounts of records? The Dwarves are going to be opposed to that, even if it is for their own good.

[warty goblin]

And potentially destroy ancient Dwarven architecture, lyrium veins, and various amounts of records? The Dwarves are going to be opposed to that, even if it is for their own good.

The dwarves have what, one city? So start your tunnel collapsing enterprises far away from 'em.

And really, with a wizard, it shouldn't even be like tunnel collapsing is all that difficult. Surely there's some spell somewhere that does a number on rock. Now all we need is for Bioware to licence the Geomod engine...

[Cristo Meyers]

The dwarves have what, one city? So start your tunnel collapsing enterprises far away from 'em.

Two, both basically on opposite sides of the continent from each other and neither too buddy-buddy with each other either.



And really, with a wizard, it shouldn't even be like tunnel collapsing is all that difficult. Surely there's some spell somewhere that does a number on rock. Now all we need is for Bioware to licence the Geomod engine...

A few well-placed Earthquake spells...

[Drakyn]

Of course, you have to be EXCRUCIATINGLY thorough. Because if you leave a few untouched, they'll just keep burrowing around looking for archdemons. Except then there won't be any reminder of them whatsoever (not even some vague mention of "oh, the dwarves whine about fighting something or other") and they're going to take a very, very, very long time to get to their new boss, so everyone'll be really unprepared when they come back up in a Blight.

[warty goblin]

Of course, you have to be EXCRUCIATINGLY thorough. Because if you leave a few untouched, they'll just keep burrowing around looking for archdemons. Except then there won't be any reminder of them whatsoever (not even some vague mention of "oh, the dwarves whine about fighting something or other") and they're going to take a very, very, very long time to get to their new boss, so everyone'll be really unprepared when they come back up in a Blight.

On the other hand, it solves the immediate problem quite nicely. And really, between collapsing tunnels and plugging air shafts, you could destroy a lot of subterranean habitat pretty quickly, so even if the Darkspawn survived the immediate fallout, they'd be screwed longterm.

Remember folks, killing all of something is unnecessary and difficult. Starving them to death works much better.

edit: or to paraphrase one of my ex-managers: commit genocide smarter, not harder.

Yes, we all detested him- or would have if he hadn't been the good manager...

[Kish]

A Blight consisting of five darkspawn led by an Archdemon, after centuries of no one being killed by darkspawn? And the con is that the people on the surface will only know Blights from things they've read, not first-hand? (What would happen to the Archdemon in that case if it got killed six times, none of them by a Grey Warden, anyway?) I'll take it.

[Gralamin]

A Blight consisting of five darkspawn led by an Archdemon, after centuries of no one being killed by darkspawn? And the con is that the people on the surface will only know Blights from things they've read, not first-hand? (What would happen to the Archdemon in that case if it got killed six times, none of them by a Grey Warden, anyway?) I'll take it.

I imagine, from how strong an archdemon is, the first thing it would do would be make off with a ton of maidens. Then it'd broodmother them up and start getting a huge army to crush people with.

[ZeroNumerous]

The smart thing to do, of course, would be for everyone--Dalish elves, magi, dwarves, humans, everyone you can gather, and preferably also some people you can't, like the Orlesians--to prioritize wiping out the darkspawn highly enough to send in a truly massive army to kill every darkspawn who can be found and reclaim the dwarves' old kingdom.

This is the absolute worst thing you could do, and that's counting genociding the entire planet. The Deep Roads, as have been mentioned, span at very least all of Feralden. Maker forbid it stretches further than that, but the possibility is there. This means that, at absolute very least, there are an equal number of darkspawn as there are Fereldans. Further, every melee-range kill subjects the killer to darkspawn taint. This means that whomever kills a darkspawn in close quarters dies a slow, agonizing and horrible death. This can be avoided, to an extent, by killing from range. Naturally doing so is nearly impossible within the Deep Roads as the twisting tunnels and passages will force melee combat more often than not. Not only that, but every hurlock is at least as powerful, if not more powerful, than his human counterpart. This would mean that in a perfect battle you would trade causalities at a 1:1 ratio with the occasional outlier surviving the taint to become a ghoul. In an imperfect battle it could easily go 2:1, 3:1 or even 4:1, and naturally any survivors of your army would still be risking infection via taint.

That's not even getting into the logistical headaches of providing food, water or lodging for an army of that size in tunnels. Nor is it addressing the possibility that soldiers are captured and converted into ghouls or broodmothers depending on gender. In effect, by sending an army down into the Deep Roads you are not only throwing away those lives, you're ensuring that your nation is weakened in the process and achieving nothing but giving the darkspawn more scavenged gear, ghouls or broodmothers.

In fact, the dwarven golems are the easiest, smartest and most pragmatic solution to the problem when they're being forged by someone who isn't a total lunatic. Golems are immune to disease, need no food, need no water, need no air, can travel without tiring, suffer horrific injuries without dying and single golem can account for at least a full squad. If you had, say, eight or nine Anvils and eight or nine non-lunatics to forge golems, then and only then could you build an army that could wipe out the darkspawn. However, you still must destroy every single darkspawn period. No survivors at all. If there are any survivors then they can simply abduct more people and create more darkspawn. So either way, you're going to be performing massive genocide.

Finally, nothing in your plan addresses the possibility of the qunari attacking, the elves hating humans too much to help, the dwarves being effectively impotent when it comes to any sort of army-raising mass combat, the Imperium taking advantage of weakened Orlais or even the darkspawn finding an Old God while you're down there. No, it would be much simpler to end the Blight five more times using the Gray Wardens and then never go into the Deep Roads ever.

[Drakyn]

I imagine, from how strong an archdemon is, the first thing it would do would be make off with a ton of maidens. Then it'd broodmother them up and start getting a huge army to crush people with.

Plus, odds are good that if it doesn't have an enormous Blight at first, it'll go unnoticed for quite a long time - maybe even once it gets big, given that there are plenty of good reasons for massacres out in the sticks beyond some fairy-tale. Or at least long enough for it to first-strike the crud out of some unsuspecting country or three. Remember, it's hard to starve out an enemy when they're perfectly fine with eating anything and everything, so it's going to have more than five darkspawn. Quoth T-rex: "Timmy is made out of meat. Your whole family is made out of meat!"

[ZeroNumerous]

Besides, we're all assuming the darkspawn can even be killed through genocide. Assuming the blight still transfers darkspawn taint then the only thing that could effectively destroy them would require copious amounts of fire and/or magic. Which would be effectively impossible without bringing in the Imperium or someone else who lacks the common sense to go "Blood magic? That's bad." Even then, you're still not addressing the origin of the darkspawn. Maybe they actually are a curse from the Maker. If that's true then any plan to perform genocide or destroy them will result in failure.

[Drakyn]

Besides, we're all assuming the darkspawn can even be killed through genocide. Assuming the blight still transfers darkspawn taint then the only thing that could effectively destroy them would require copious amounts of fire and/or magic. Which would be effectively impossible without bringing in the Imperium or someone else who lacks the common sense to go "Blood magic? That's bad." Even then, you're still not addressing the origin of the darkspawn. Maybe they actually are a curse from the Maker. If that's true then any plan to perform genocide or destroy them will result in failure.

And even THAT'S assuming that the worst thing they could be is a curse from the Maker. There's likely still plenty of other, possibly more-horrifying options I'm sure we haven't thought of.

[warty goblin]

Plus, odds are good that if it doesn't have an enormous Blight at first, it'll go unnoticed for quite a long time - maybe even once it gets big, given that there are plenty of good reasons for massacres out in the sticks beyond some fairy-tale. Or at least long enough for it to first-strike the crud out of some unsuspecting country or three. Remember, it's hard to starve out an enemy when they're perfectly fine with eating anything and everything, so it's going to have more than five darkspawn. Quoth T-rex: "Timmy is made out of meat. Your whole family is made out of meat!"

Right, but when you live underground, there isn't a hell of a lot of everything and anything. As much as people keep mentioning eating other Darkspawn, on its own this does not work. You need a base for the foodchain, and human plus sized creatures are not it, particularly when they are also at or near the apex of the foodchain. Yes the Darkspawn can eat each other, and yes this is a more efficient use of available resources than not eating each other, but at the end of the day they have to eat other things as well.

So you collapse tunnels, plug air vents, and generally do whatever is feasible to destroy undergound life. Whatever else is down there will suffer from the loss and fragmentation of habitat. When the bottom of the foodchain shrinks, the top must needs shrink as well. Destroy enough habitat, and you will kill enough of the base organisms that they can no longer support the things nearer the top of the foodchain like the Darkspawn in some areas, and drastically reduce their population in others.

And even if they can invade three thousand or so years later, that does nothing to really invalidate the technique because it causes a hellova lot bigger a delay than doing jack squat seems to produce.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is the absolute worst thing you could do, and that's counting genociding the entire planet. The Deep Roads, as have been mentioned, span at very least all of Feralden. Maker forbid it stretches further than that, but the possibility is there. This means that, at absolute very least, there are an equal number of darkspawn as there are Fereldans. Further, every melee-range kill subjects the killer to darkspawn taint. This means that whomever kills a darkspawn in close quarters dies a slow, agonizing and horrible death. This can be avoided, to an extent, by killing from range. Naturally doing so is nearly impossible within the Deep Roads as the twisting tunnels and passages will force melee combat more often than not. Not only that, but every hurlock is at least as powerful, if not more powerful, than his human counterpart. This would mean that in a perfect battle you would trade causalities at a 1:1 ratio with the occasional outlier surviving the taint to become a ghoul. In an imperfect battle it could easily go 2:1, 3:1 or even 4:1, and naturally any survivors of your army would still be risking infection via taint.

That's not even getting into the logistical headaches of providing food, water or lodging for an army of that size in tunnels. Nor is it addressing the possibility that soldiers are captured and converted into ghouls or broodmothers depending on gender. In effect, by sending an army down into the Deep Roads you are not only throwing away those lives, you're ensuring that your nation is weakened in the process and achieving nothing but giving the darkspawn more scavenged gear, ghouls or broodmothers.

In fact, the dwarven golems are the easiest, smartest and most pragmatic solution to the problem when they're being forged by someone who isn't a total lunatic. Golems are immune to disease, need no food, need no water, need no air, can travel without tiring, suffer horrific injuries without dying and single golem can account for at least a full squad. If you had, say, eight or nine Anvils and eight or nine non-lunatics to forge golems, then and only then could you build an army that could wipe out the darkspawn. However, you still must destroy every single darkspawn period. No survivors at all. If there are any survivors then they can simply abduct more people and create more darkspawn. So either way, you're going to be performing massive genocide.

Finally, nothing in your plan addresses the possibility of the qunari attacking, the elves hating humans too much to help, the dwarves being effectively impotent when it comes to any sort of army-raising mass combat, the Imperium taking advantage of weakened Orlais or even the darkspawn finding an Old God while you're down there. No, it would be much simpler to end the Blight five more times using the Gray Wardens and then never go into the Deep Roads ever.

As I said, the Deep Roads apparently go all over the world, because something in the epilogue mentions that thanks to the Deep Roads, darkspawn are sighted even as far away as the lands of the qunari.

[Drakyn]

Right, but when you live underground, there isn't a hell of a lot of everything and anything. As much as people keep mentioning eating other Darkspawn, on its own this does not work. You need a base for the foodchain, and human plus sized creatures are not it, particularly when they are also at or near the apex of the foodchain. Yes the Darkspawn can eat each other, and yes this is a more efficient use of available resources than not eating each other, but at the end of the day they have to eat other things as well.

So you collapse tunnels, plug air vents, and generally do whatever is feasible to destroy undergound life. Whatever else is down there will suffer from the loss and fragmentation of habitat. When the bottom of the foodchain shrinks, the top must needs shrink as well. Destroy enough habitat, and you will kill enough of the base organisms that they can no longer support the things nearer the top of the foodchain like the Darkspawn in some areas, and drastically reduce their population in others.

And even if they can invade three thousand or so years later, that does nothing to really invalidate the technique because it causes a hellova lot bigger a delay than doing jack squat seems to produce.

The issue I have with your conclusion is that it still IS a delay, and as was said above, it's probably better to hope they find each Archdemon relatively quickly enough that it can be readied against and quashed, but not so slowly that everyone forgets the urgency. Three thousand years of waiting could mean a serious beatdown for the entire planet when its time comes around, unless someone rediscovers the grey wardens in time.
Also, if the darkspawn are everywhere in the deep roads and apparently hale and hearty now, it's safe to say they know something about living down there. Whether they're the most efficient cannibals ever seen, broodmothers somehow magically grow food out of thin air for them, or they're breeding cities of captives down there for snacks, it's safe to say that whatever they're eating, you'd better be damned sure you can get it with earthquakes and hole-plugging along with them. Because I'm sure it'd be just as decentralized as they are. If any of them live, some of whatever their secret will too. And it's likely buried very deep. Screwing around with their habitat at all might get you too close to them as-is. Let's not forget that there's magic afoot as a possible explanation for things we don't know about them, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out darkspawn corruption turns rocks into brie. Lord knows it does enough other things.

[ZeroNumerous]

... , but at the end of the day they have to eat other things as well.

Why would they need to eat anything else? They're obviously magic creatures, so how can you dismiss the possibility that darkspawn require no sustenance aside from other darkspawn? In fact, it's entirely possible that they capture other humans for the sole purpose of recreational eating and tainting.


So you collapse tunnels, plug air vents, and generally do whatever is feasible to destroy undergound life.

Unfortunately this would require a massive mapping expedition to map all of the air vents all across the world and it would require dwarven assistance. The dwarves are very unlikely to assist you in collapsing and destroying their old homes. So you would, at very least, need to slaughter all the dwarves and spend several weeks poring over their records.


And even if they can invade three thousand or so years later, that does nothing to really invalidate the technique because it causes a hellova lot bigger a delay than doing jack squat seems to produce.

If they do invade 3,000 years later then the likelihood that they'll ever return to the Deep Roads is low. In fact, all you'd be doing is forcing the darkspawn to reside on the surface, and that means forcing them to utilize predatory raids to capture as many potential broodmothers as possible. Which in turn fuels their warmachine. Ultimately you're delaying the inevitable.

And, naturally, your assumption is based on the possibility that darkspawn are actually organic organisms rather than magical in nature.