Gralamin
2009-12-07, 02:33 PM
Edit: Apparently I can't change the title of the entire thread. So, in big bold:
This thread has been Necro'd, and should be locked.
This is continued from the by RAW thread. The original question was:
Okay, so maybe this isn't all that simple. I've seen quite a few interpretations of how powers like Whirling Frenzy (Primal Power 11) works in regards to static damage. As a sample scenario, say we have a whirling barbarian with 18 strength (+4 modifier), Weapon focus (+1 damage) and two +1 broadswords. When he uses this power, is the damage:
1) 1d10+1d10+4+1+1 = 2d10+6 damage (All static modifiers apply once)
2) 1d10+1+1d10+1+4+1 = 2d10+7 damage, (Enhancement bonus of each weapon applies, other mods apply once)
3) 1d10+1+1+1d10+1+1+4 = 2d10+8 damage (Static modifiers other then ability modifier apply on each, ability modifier applies once), or
4) 1d10+4+1+1+1d10+4+1+1 = 2d10+12 damage (All static modifiers apply on both).
The character's builder's answer in this situation is 1d10+1[W]+6 damage, where the second 1[W] is presumably just another 1d10. However, this answer is still ambiguous.
I've been playing it as #2, but it'd be good to know for sure.
The following are the posts of debate that have continued.
A 54
* 1[W] refers only to the damage dice of the weapon when it's mundane. In this case, 1d10.
* +str mod is added by the power itself. Note that some powers don't add a stat mod (like Twin Strike).
* Enhancement Bonus is added when you hit with the weapon. You're not hitting with your offhand weapon. Enchanting an offhand weapon is usually a useless thing to do, with the exception of a Ranger, who makes separate attacks with each weapon.
* Weapon Focus adds to your damage when you hit with the weapon. See Enhancement Bonus explanation above.
So, you get 1[Main-W] + 1[Off-W] + Str Mod + Main-Enh + Weapon Focus = 1d10 + 1d10 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 2d10+6
So #1 is correct.
A 54 Contention
A good attempt at coming up with a RAW answer, but missing on several points that you haven't bothered to address. The following is just what I found that supports multiple possible interpretations.
A 54
First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all.
* 1[W] refers only to the damage dice of the weapon when it's mundane. In this case, 1d10.
Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how.
* +str mod is added by the power itself. Note that some powers don't add a stat mod (like Twin Strike).
Page 57 of the PHB states:
Some powers add modifiers to attack rolls or damage rolls. These modifiers apply to any roll of the dice, but not to ongoing damage or other static non variable effects. Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both.
* Enhancement Bonus is added when you hit with the weapon. You're not hitting with your offhand weapon. Enchanting an offhand weapon is usually a useless thing to do, with the exception of a Ranger, who makes separate attacks with each weapon.
According to PHB 225:
Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon the weapon or the implement. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying.
In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well.
* Weapon Focus adds to your damage when you hit with the weapon. See Enhancement Bonus explanation above. Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as
Roll the damage indicated in the power description...
...Add the ability modifier specified in the power description
This would, include everything on the hit effect line as part of the damage roll, and thus weapon focus should only be applied once.
So, you get 1[Main-W] + 1[Off-W] + Str Mod + Main-Enh + Weapon Focus = 1d10 + 1d10 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 2d10+6
Still not clear this is right.
A 54
"First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all."
I don't need to quote things to be right.
"Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how."
Erm... I'm referring to the damage dice the weapon has on it's own without any bonuses at all. It's the definition of [W]... Which is 1d10 in this case. It's the "mundane" damage before any magic or modifiers. It surprises me that you didn't find that to be clear.
"Page 57 of the PHB states:
Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both."
It's 1 damage roll. To be 2 damage rolls, it'd have to say:
Hit: 1[W] + str mod
Hit: 1[W] (offhand) + str mod
Which it doesn't. The powers have 1 "Hit:" line, and therefore 1 damage roll that happens to include multiple dice. What you're saying is the same as adding str mod twice for something that says "Hit: 2[W]+str mod damage". If they wanted you to deal the str mod damage twice, they'd say it twice in the power's "Hit:" line or list separate "Hit" lines for each weapon.
"According to PHB 225:
. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying."
You are hitting with only the main weapon, therefore are delivering the power through only the main weapon. You're merely dealing some damage with the off-hand weapon.
"In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well."
You're stretching. What I mean is clear. This isn't even relevant to your question.
" Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as"
Regardless... It's still a single damage roll, so this doesn't change. And even if you ignore that fact, it still doesn't stack with itself as it's a feat bonus. So there's 2 reasons for you. But thanks for looking that up, I'll let the Fighter in my group know to add to his Rain of Steel damage and Reaping Strike misses.
It's still 2d10+6 in your scenario.
I do not debate, and I've fully clarified everything that I mean, so I won't reply to this answer further.
A 54
I agree with your answer, it just isn't clear by RAW, and you act as if it is.
"First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all."
I don't need to quote things to be right.
So wait, I ask for quotes supporting your claim, bring up quotes that make whether this is true ambiguous, explain why, and you respond with simply "I'm right" and not give any actual quotes to support your view?
This is a very poor way to answer a question by RAW, since currently, the only insurance I have that your answer is right is that it is your opinion. Not that it matters, since apparently you refuse to respond more to this question for some reason.
"Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how."
Erm... I'm referring to the damage dice the weapon has on it's own without any bonuses at all. It's the definition of [W]... Which is 1d10 in this case. It's the "mundane" damage before any magic or modifiers. It surprises me that you didn't find that to be clear.
Your statement could of been read two ways: It's the damage die before magic, OR a magical weapon has additional rules. You may of found it clear, but otherwise it is ambiguous.
"Page 57 of the PHB states:
Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both."
It's 1 damage roll. To be 2 damage rolls, it'd have to say:
Hit: 1[W] + str mod
Hit: 1[W] (offhand) + str mod
Which it doesn't. The powers have 1 "Hit:" line, and therefore 1 damage roll that happens to include multiple dice. What you're saying is the same as adding str mod twice for something that says "Hit: 2[W]+str mod damage". If they wanted you to deal the str mod damage twice, they'd say it twice in the power's "Hit:" line or list separate "Hit" lines for each weapon.
That specific line did not say it had to be a damage roll - It only said it had to be a roll of the dice, and doesn't say there is one roll of the dice per hit. Poor wording on WoTC Part, and you are probably interpreting it how it is meant to be, but this isn't about RAI, its about RAW.
"According to PHB 225:
. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying."
You are hitting with only the main weapon, therefore are delivering the power through only the main weapon. You're merely dealing some damage with the off-hand weapon.
Prove it. I haven't see a RAW quote that saids so.
"In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well."
You're stretching. What I mean is clear. This isn't even relevant to your question.
I was merely pointing out an error in your facts.
" Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as"
Regardless... It's still a single damage roll, so this doesn't change. And even if you ignore that fact, it still doesn't stack with itself as it's a feat bonus. So there's 2 reasons for you. But thanks for looking that up, I'll let the Fighter in my group know to add to his Rain of Steel damage and Reaping Strike misses.
...Didn't I just say that? Didn't I just find RAW justification for your claim, and say that part at least was definitely right? How is that regardless?
Regardless, if I cannot get a more definite RAW answer in the next post, this has grown enough that it should be it's own thread.
------
Essentially, I am trying to clear out some of the inherit ambiguity because of some very badly worded rules.
The answer I received in the thread has very little RAW support (Or, the poster simply refuses to give any RAW support), and so I expand to a new thread for any further discussion.
Edit: Apparently I can't change the title of the entire thread. So, in big bold:
This thread has been Necro'd, and should be locked.
This thread has been Necro'd, and should be locked.
This is continued from the by RAW thread. The original question was:
Okay, so maybe this isn't all that simple. I've seen quite a few interpretations of how powers like Whirling Frenzy (Primal Power 11) works in regards to static damage. As a sample scenario, say we have a whirling barbarian with 18 strength (+4 modifier), Weapon focus (+1 damage) and two +1 broadswords. When he uses this power, is the damage:
1) 1d10+1d10+4+1+1 = 2d10+6 damage (All static modifiers apply once)
2) 1d10+1+1d10+1+4+1 = 2d10+7 damage, (Enhancement bonus of each weapon applies, other mods apply once)
3) 1d10+1+1+1d10+1+1+4 = 2d10+8 damage (Static modifiers other then ability modifier apply on each, ability modifier applies once), or
4) 1d10+4+1+1+1d10+4+1+1 = 2d10+12 damage (All static modifiers apply on both).
The character's builder's answer in this situation is 1d10+1[W]+6 damage, where the second 1[W] is presumably just another 1d10. However, this answer is still ambiguous.
I've been playing it as #2, but it'd be good to know for sure.
The following are the posts of debate that have continued.
A 54
* 1[W] refers only to the damage dice of the weapon when it's mundane. In this case, 1d10.
* +str mod is added by the power itself. Note that some powers don't add a stat mod (like Twin Strike).
* Enhancement Bonus is added when you hit with the weapon. You're not hitting with your offhand weapon. Enchanting an offhand weapon is usually a useless thing to do, with the exception of a Ranger, who makes separate attacks with each weapon.
* Weapon Focus adds to your damage when you hit with the weapon. See Enhancement Bonus explanation above.
So, you get 1[Main-W] + 1[Off-W] + Str Mod + Main-Enh + Weapon Focus = 1d10 + 1d10 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 2d10+6
So #1 is correct.
A 54 Contention
A good attempt at coming up with a RAW answer, but missing on several points that you haven't bothered to address. The following is just what I found that supports multiple possible interpretations.
A 54
First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all.
* 1[W] refers only to the damage dice of the weapon when it's mundane. In this case, 1d10.
Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how.
* +str mod is added by the power itself. Note that some powers don't add a stat mod (like Twin Strike).
Page 57 of the PHB states:
Some powers add modifiers to attack rolls or damage rolls. These modifiers apply to any roll of the dice, but not to ongoing damage or other static non variable effects. Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both.
* Enhancement Bonus is added when you hit with the weapon. You're not hitting with your offhand weapon. Enchanting an offhand weapon is usually a useless thing to do, with the exception of a Ranger, who makes separate attacks with each weapon.
According to PHB 225:
Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon the weapon or the implement. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying.
In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well.
* Weapon Focus adds to your damage when you hit with the weapon. See Enhancement Bonus explanation above. Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as
Roll the damage indicated in the power description...
...Add the ability modifier specified in the power description
This would, include everything on the hit effect line as part of the damage roll, and thus weapon focus should only be applied once.
So, you get 1[Main-W] + 1[Off-W] + Str Mod + Main-Enh + Weapon Focus = 1d10 + 1d10 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 2d10+6
Still not clear this is right.
A 54
"First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all."
I don't need to quote things to be right.
"Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how."
Erm... I'm referring to the damage dice the weapon has on it's own without any bonuses at all. It's the definition of [W]... Which is 1d10 in this case. It's the "mundane" damage before any magic or modifiers. It surprises me that you didn't find that to be clear.
"Page 57 of the PHB states:
Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both."
It's 1 damage roll. To be 2 damage rolls, it'd have to say:
Hit: 1[W] + str mod
Hit: 1[W] (offhand) + str mod
Which it doesn't. The powers have 1 "Hit:" line, and therefore 1 damage roll that happens to include multiple dice. What you're saying is the same as adding str mod twice for something that says "Hit: 2[W]+str mod damage". If they wanted you to deal the str mod damage twice, they'd say it twice in the power's "Hit:" line or list separate "Hit" lines for each weapon.
"According to PHB 225:
. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying."
You are hitting with only the main weapon, therefore are delivering the power through only the main weapon. You're merely dealing some damage with the off-hand weapon.
"In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well."
You're stretching. What I mean is clear. This isn't even relevant to your question.
" Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as"
Regardless... It's still a single damage roll, so this doesn't change. And even if you ignore that fact, it still doesn't stack with itself as it's a feat bonus. So there's 2 reasons for you. But thanks for looking that up, I'll let the Fighter in my group know to add to his Rain of Steel damage and Reaping Strike misses.
It's still 2d10+6 in your scenario.
I do not debate, and I've fully clarified everything that I mean, so I won't reply to this answer further.
A 54
I agree with your answer, it just isn't clear by RAW, and you act as if it is.
"First off, it is hardly by RAW if you do not quote any sources, at all."
I don't need to quote things to be right.
So wait, I ask for quotes supporting your claim, bring up quotes that make whether this is true ambiguous, explain why, and you respond with simply "I'm right" and not give any actual quotes to support your view?
This is a very poor way to answer a question by RAW, since currently, the only insurance I have that your answer is right is that it is your opinion. Not that it matters, since apparently you refuse to respond more to this question for some reason.
"Not mundane though. Your statement suggests a magical weapon should be different, but you do not address how."
Erm... I'm referring to the damage dice the weapon has on it's own without any bonuses at all. It's the definition of [W]... Which is 1d10 in this case. It's the "mundane" damage before any magic or modifiers. It surprises me that you didn't find that to be clear.
Your statement could of been read two ways: It's the damage die before magic, OR a magical weapon has additional rules. You may of found it clear, but otherwise it is ambiguous.
"Page 57 of the PHB states:
Since 1[W] Main-hand and 1[W] Off-hand could be argued to be two different rolls of the dice, an argument exists for the strength modifier applying to both."
It's 1 damage roll. To be 2 damage rolls, it'd have to say:
Hit: 1[W] + str mod
Hit: 1[W] (offhand) + str mod
Which it doesn't. The powers have 1 "Hit:" line, and therefore 1 damage roll that happens to include multiple dice. What you're saying is the same as adding str mod twice for something that says "Hit: 2[W]+str mod damage". If they wanted you to deal the str mod damage twice, they'd say it twice in the power's "Hit:" line or list separate "Hit" lines for each weapon.
That specific line did not say it had to be a damage roll - It only said it had to be a roll of the dice, and doesn't say there is one roll of the dice per hit. Poor wording on WoTC Part, and you are probably interpreting it how it is meant to be, but this isn't about RAI, its about RAW.
"According to PHB 225:
. It is unclear what constitutes delivering a power through a weapon, so this does not preclude the chance of both applying."
You are hitting with only the main weapon, therefore are delivering the power through only the main weapon. You're merely dealing some damage with the off-hand weapon.
Prove it. I haven't see a RAW quote that saids so.
"In addition, Ranger is not the only exception. A normal barbarian, Tempest fighters, and a few other classes, all have separate attack powers as well."
You're stretching. What I mean is clear. This isn't even relevant to your question.
I was merely pointing out an error in your facts.
" Weapon focus adds on any damage roll. A damage roll is defined on page 276 as"
Regardless... It's still a single damage roll, so this doesn't change. And even if you ignore that fact, it still doesn't stack with itself as it's a feat bonus. So there's 2 reasons for you. But thanks for looking that up, I'll let the Fighter in my group know to add to his Rain of Steel damage and Reaping Strike misses.
...Didn't I just say that? Didn't I just find RAW justification for your claim, and say that part at least was definitely right? How is that regardless?
Regardless, if I cannot get a more definite RAW answer in the next post, this has grown enough that it should be it's own thread.
------
Essentially, I am trying to clear out some of the inherit ambiguity because of some very badly worded rules.
The answer I received in the thread has very little RAW support (Or, the poster simply refuses to give any RAW support), and so I expand to a new thread for any further discussion.
Edit: Apparently I can't change the title of the entire thread. So, in big bold:
This thread has been Necro'd, and should be locked.