[3.5] Ok, so what's this guy doing

[Voidhawk]

So, there's this long running game one of my freinds has been running, which recently passed the end of a story arc, and various players left and new ones have joined. Mostly it all appears to be going fine, but there's this one new guy we're... concerned about. Not overly so, but slightly. We didn't know him very well when he joined (met at our uni's games society), and he came with a character that was fully built, using a race that didn't even exist in the DM's world (an Illumin, whatever that is), and had to be quickly retconned away.

So my question is: is he trying something? He's a Human Wizard 5/Scout 5 with a fondness for divination. Please reasure us that this combination is just a flavourful and underpowered archeologist as he says, and not going to lead into a horrifically overpowered Prc we're not aware of. We'd dearly like to confirm from people smarter than us that this won't break the game!

[sonofzeal]

Sounds.... uh, actually pretty underpowered. There's a few things he could do ("Improved Skirmish" with Ray spells), but he'll be much less effective than a Wizard10. Whatever he does at this point, he's well below par and not taking an optimal course for whatever he's going for. There's a few good PrCs he might qualify for at the moment, but nothing that's going to break the game.

[Wings of Peace]

The **** is he taking 5 levels of Scout for?

[Voidhawk]

The **** is he taking 5 levels of Scout for?

We don't know. That's the issue. We HOPE he's just really into the roleplaying of a quirky archeologist, but we'd really like to here it from people who know the books better than us.

[Wings of Peace]

We don't know. That's the issue. We HOPE he's just really into the roleplaying of a quirky archeologist, but we'd really like to here it from people who know the books better than us.

You've nothing to be concerned for.

[erikun]

Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) > Imbue Arrow > Antimagic Field comes to mind, although that isn't unbalancingly powerful, no.

Probably the worst thing about a Human Wizard 5/Scout 5 is that it's a wizard. Glitterdust, Web, Grease, etc. can stop an enemy from participating in a battle, although he won't have the higher level spells to cause the worst trouble.

The class choice is very poor, optimization-wise. Wizards work best as full casters, and losing half your caster levels is very bad for your spellcasting. Archery is one of the worst ways to deal damage, and the Scout is not very good at archery. About the best I could see him doing is using Orb of X (Complete Arcane) or Scorching Ray (PHB) along with Skirmish, and that wouldn't even be as strong as a pure-wizard or pure-scout.

There are no overpowering "wizard archer" prestige classes, and even if there was, full BAB and full spellcasting would still put him being the general power curve.

[Douglas]

Wizard 5/Scout 5? That is horrifically underpowered, and I am not aware of any PrC designed to rescue it. Even if you allowed his chosen race, while there are one or two high optimization tricks involving Illumian none of them can even come close to making up for losing 5 levels of caster progression.

If I were ever to consider banning that build for reasons of character power it would be for being not powerful enough rather than for being too powerful, and it's sufficiently weak that I really would consider doing so if I were running the game.

[Zovc]

We don't know.

He asked what he was taking that for because it's (rather) suboptimal. No offence, I just feel like you didn't infer that.

[Optimystik]

Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm)

I doubt that:


He's a Human Wizard 5/Scout 5

I do agree with you that if those were his intentions, that they would be laughably weak and thus not worthy of concern.

[Tyndmyr]

The **** is he taking 5 levels of Scout for?

This. I can think of no possibility that would compare to just happily taking more levels of wizard and various prCs thereof.

[Sir.Swindle]

He could be building for arcane archer but it's not likely. He's proly just doing it for flavor, although factotum would likely be better both for optimization and flavor but that aside. Likely nothing to worry about, you and your DM being worried about it is good, at least you're aware of the broken that can happen in 3.5.

Also did you say illumian? the floaty sigil guys? they are in races of destiny (so i prolly wouldn't have asked about it either) and not particularly broken (i though they were then i read closer). or maby thats how those guys with no necks was spelled (*cries cuz he can't have his books at work*)

[dsmiles]

I do my fluff first and crunch second, but even I wouldn't have picked that for a "quirky archeologist." I would have gone ranger/rogue or something more Indy-like...maybe a whip/shortsword TWF combo.

[erikun]

About the only thing I could think of is trying to apply Skirmish to ability score damage/penalities, such as from Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) or Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm). The best way to avoid that abuse is to houserule that abilities like Skirmish and Sneak Attack don't deal additional ability damage.

Actually, the best way is to just ask him outright if he's attempting something overpowered. If he is, try to work with him so that it fits with the party. If not, then everything is fine.

If he is but lies to you, that's rather telling of what kind of a player he is.

I'm sure that I (and several on the forum) could optimize a Wizard/Scout into a good character. However, by "good character", I mean roughly in line with the Barbarian or Warlock - good in combat, a few handy abilities, not overpowering. And the class would be really easy to mess up.

[Voidhawk]

He asked what he was taking that for because it's (rather) suboptimal. No offence, I just feel like you didn't infer that.

Sorry, I apologise. It's just we both know that the combination is sub-optimal at best, but we're worried that it's not, and there's somekind of trick that if we let it slip will lead to much DM/Player conflict. Of course, it may be harmless and we're getting worked up over nothing, but we don't know...



Also did you say illumian? the floaty sigil guys? they are in races of destiny (so i prolly wouldn't have asked about it either) and not particularly broken (i though they were then i read closer).[/SIZE]

And yeah, the floaty sigil guys. I'm not sure what book they're from, hence more worry.

[Douglas]

About the only thing I could think of is trying to apply Skirmish to ability score damage/penalities, such as from Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) or Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm). The best way to avoid that abuse is to houserule that abilities like Skirmish and Sneak Attack don't deal additional ability damage.
No need for a house rule, it's already RAW that the additional damage is negative energy hit point damage, not ability damage or (with Enervation and such) negative levels. See the Complete Arcane section on weaponlike spells. I think it's at the beginning of the feats chapter.

[Optimystik]

For archeologist, I'd go with Factotum (Dscape), Savant (Dragon Compendium), Archivist (HoH), or just plain Rogue. Wizard/Scout was unfortunately an awful choice on his part.

[Douglas]

Sorry, I apologise. It's just we both know that the combination is sub-optimal at best, but we're worried that it's not, and there's somekind of trick that if we let it slip will lead to much DM/Player conflict. Of course, it may be harmless and we're getting worked up over nothing, but we don't know...
You can stop worrying. I have extensive knowledge of just about every 3.5e WotC splatbook, and I do not know of any cheesy overpowered build that would be better with an even split of wizard and scout than just straight wizard, and even straight scout could easily be better if he's not very smart about spell and feat selection.

[Telonius]

The PrC's won't be all that bad. What I'm wondering about, is the spells. He took exactly 5 levels of Wizard. Is there some 3rd-level arcane spell that would synergize particularly well with Scout? Anything that having Skirmish would stack up to something nasty?

[nekomata2]

Not unless he lives in a world of 3.5 haste....No, not even then. That class split is not good. I do love Illumian though, too bad you didn't let him keep it...

[erikun]

Is there some 3rd-level arcane spell that would synergize particularly well with Scout?
Fireball + Energy Substitution (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Energy_Substitution) (Acid) + Acidic Splatter (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Acidic_Splatter) will deal 5d6 acid damage with their reserve feat. (3d6 Acidic Splatter + 2d6 Skirmish)

Please note that a Warlock 10 deals 5d6 damage with his Eldritch Blast, without spending any feats. Not to mention at will Flight by that level. As I said, Wizard/Scout can be made to work, but not necessarily better than other classes.

[Zovc]

The PrC's won't be all that bad. What I'm wondering about, is the spells. He took exactly 5 levels of Wizard. Is there some 3rd-level arcane spell that would synergize particularly well with Scout? Anything that having Skirmish would stack up to something nasty?

The only thing I can think of is Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Fly.htm).

Still, he's got a not-so-hot BAB and can only make one attack every round if he moves at least 10 feet. I'm pretty sure a warlock can do better, but I'd have to look at books to be sure (which I can't do at the moment).

[Voidhawk]

Well if the concencus is that it's just a wierd combination, and that we can stop worrying and relax, I'm very happy. :smallsmile:

It simply made so little sense that we started worrying about the danger we couldn't see...

But odd and underpowered flavour? We can handle and fix that.

Thanks alot!

[Douglas]

But odd and underpowered flavour? We can handle and fix that.
Ooooooooh, I see it now. He's counting on that reaction and you going too far in compensating for his build, so his initially underpowered build will get boosted to overpowered by favorable house rules and extra loot!:smallbiggrin:

Heh, it would require some pretty serious boosting to get him all the way to overpowered, and if by some bizarre chance that really is what he's doing it would be one of the most strange and roundabout methods of making an overpowered character I've ever heard of.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well to be honest he could be going for unseen seer.
Not that its overpowered like that...
Just saying
He could in theory rack up some dmg pritty quick...
5 scount lets him get imprioved skirmish and the unseen sear lets him add d6 dmg every i thinkg 2 or 3 levels of the prc...
I would expect this especialy if he is heavy divination.

[Starbuck_II]

The **** is he taking 5 levels of Scout for?

2 level of Scout gives you never flat footed (not even then). This means he can cast Immediate action spells outside of combat. Since Immediate action spells require you to not be flat footed.

I'm not sure why he has 3 extra levels, but maybe he worries about XP Penalties.

[sofawall]

2 level of Scout gives you never flat footed (not even then). This means he can cast Immediate action spells outside of combat. Since Immediate action spells require you to not be flat footed.

I'm not sure why he has 3 extra levels, but maybe he worries about XP Penalties.

That is strongly debatable.

[AslanCross]

He gave up half his caster levels. I don't know of any optimized build and/or gamebreaker that gives up that many caster levels.

[Doc Roc]

You've nothing to be concerned for.

Unless you guys have build characters with seven or eight hits of Toughness, Wings is correct. 5 lost caster levels is probably his way of affably tilting his hat to your power level and rolling with the group. Unless he rolls straight into beholder mage, you have nothing to worry about.

[Lord of Syntax]

He gave up half his caster levels. I don't know of any optimized build and/or gamebreaker that gives up that many caster levels.

DMM: Quicken/Ruby Knight Vindicator abusing gishy cleric gives up 3 CLs and sadly, 9th lvl spells, he can however cast spells as long as he has spells left and turn attempts in one turn

[Doc Roc]

DMM: Quicken/Ruby Knight Vindicator abusing gishy cleric gives up 3 CLs and sadly, 9th lvl spells, he can however cast spells as long as he has spells left and turn attempts in one turn

Doesn't have to. I can build you an RkV with ninths. Hell I _Might_ be able to roll you one with double nines. Don't think so, but mayyyybe.

[Starbuck_II]

That is strongly debatable.

What? How do you debate RAW? Is this the: "This was not my intention" argument?
How do we know?

[Doc Roc]

Ardent 4/Crusader 1/Ur Priest 2/ RkV 7/
Psychic Theurge 1/Subverted Psion 1/Anarchic Initiate 4

Not a great build, but a cool one. Might get double nines depend on how open your reading of Ardent is, how much you're willing to use psychic reformation, and how much you can boost your ML.

ML 14, CL dependent on how you read ur-priest. Not a lot of PP. 9th level spells though, turning, and swift actions galore, as well as wild surge for free and potentially heinous amounts of PP from taint.

Must be human to avoid xp penalties. But seriously, don't throw me in the briar patch.

Enjoy!

[erikun]

What? How do you debate RAW? Is this the: "This was not my intention" argument?
How do we know?
Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge), does not work when immobilized. So yes, even then. :smalltongue:

[sofawall]

What? How do you debate RAW? Is this the: "This was not my intention" argument?
How do we know?

Well, it says they are not flat-footed, but then tells you to refer to Uncanny Dodge, which does something completely different.

Also, Shivering Touch. That is debated (what does the duration mean?).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

DMM: Quicken/Ruby Knight Vindicator abusing gishy cleric gives up 3 CLs and sadly, 9th lvl spells, he can however cast spells as long as he has spells left and turn attempts in one turn

Giving up three hard and fast caster levels generally means holding onto 9s, for the record. As Windicator is strictly divine, that's out.

As has already been mentioned, he may go for Unseen Seer (Complete Mage), grabbing a few things like Hunter's Eye (PHB2) for extra precision damage or other divination spells to help with getting precision damage. Although, it is certainly not the best way to go about doing so.

If he has the wisdom for it, he may go for Ur-Priest shenanigans, but that seems unlikely, at this point. It would also lose some of the impact of "early" 9th level spells, since he's already 10th level.

[Edge]

With Wizard 5/Scout 5, and his first character being an Illumian, and going for a quirky archaeologist vibe, I strongly suspect that he was aiming for that Illumian-only caster/skillmonkey PrC, the name of which completely escapes me. The class' picture is of the sample NPC hovering over a pit full of spikes and snakes.

[olentu]

With Wizard 5/Scout 5, and his first character being an Illumian, and going for a quirky archaeologist vibe, I strongly suspect that he was aiming for that Illumian-only caster/skillmonkey PrC, the name of which completely escapes me. The class' picture is of the sample NPC hovering over a pit full of spikes and snakes.

Loredelver I believe.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What? How do you debate RAW?

The same way every debater in every rules debate thread in the last 5 years has debated RAW...

[nepphi]

I put forward the alternative theory that he took it just to watch you squirm and scramble in panic.

Underpowered builds can be a lot of fun for rping, I really think you've got a no-risk on your hands here.

[Sir.Swindle]

Loredelver (Races of Destiny) is almost certainly what he was going for. Not building for it very well but likely qualifies for it, prior to you taking his race away of course.

a better build (assuming you want the PrC) would be 6wiz/1rouge/ x Loredelver (or whatever else has trapfinding) then he would only lose 2 spell levels going into the PrC.

[Starbuck_II]

Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge), does not work when immobilized. So yes, even then. :smalltongue:

That has nothing to do with being flat foot. :smalltongue:
But sure, he is never flat foot, but can lose dex to AC.

[Grumman]

If I had some desire to create a Wizard 5 / Scout 5, I would have just gone for Wizard 6 / Swiftblade 4. Swift Surge is almost the same thing as Skirmish, and a 40% miss chance is better than a few points of AC.

[Karoht]

Only thing that comes to mind is arcane trickster, but I'm pretty sure you need rogue levels specifically for that one, combined with arcane casting. And arcane trickster isn't that broken either.

[Wings of Peace]

That has nothing to do with being flat foot. :smalltongue:
But sure, he is never flat foot, but can lose dex to AC.

It has everything to do with being Flat-Footed. If the reference indicates it acts as the Barbarian ability it just means you keep your dexterity bonus when you are Flat-Footed but you are none the less FLAT-FOOTED.

[Lycanthromancer]

If the DM is amenable, have him read Races of Destiny and look at illumians.

The guy is playing a remarkably underpowered build, and illumians generally aren't broken (though they can do some interesting things).

Give the guy a break and let 'im be an illumian, eh?

[Voidhawk]

Loredelver (Races of Destiny) is almost certainly what he was going for. Not building for it very well but likely qualifies for it, prior to you taking his race away of course.

a better build (assuming you want the PrC) would be 6wiz/1rouge/ x Loredelver (or whatever else has trapfinding) then he would only lose 2 spell levels going into the PrC.

Ah right, ok. Yeah that makes sense. Anyone know where I can find it? Illumin may not exist, but that doesn't mean the DM wouldn't be amenable to letting him be one anyway.


If the DM is amenable, have him read Races of Destiny and look at illumians.

The guy is playing a remarkably underpowered build, and illumians generally aren't broken (though they can do some interesting things).

Give the guy a break and let 'im be an illumian, eh?

His world is kind of large and complete, with not much room for extra races, though classes are mostly fine. Any kind of race-related prequisite he's generally... persuadable, if not automatically allowing.

[Starbuck_II]

It has everything to do with being Flat-Footed. If the reference indicates it acts as the Barbarian ability it just means you keep your dexterity bonus when you are Flat-Footed but you are none the less FLAT-FOOTED.

No, because it says the text differently. If they wanted a copy paste: they would copy paste.
Compare Barb/Rogue's entry and Scouts. Scouts says never flat foot, Barbarian and rogues says react to danger.

[nekomata2]

Ah right, ok. Yeah that makes sense. Anyone know where I can find it? Illumin may not exist, but that doesn't mean the DM wouldn't be amenable to letting him be one anyway.



His world is kind of large and complete, with not much room for extra races, though classes are mostly fine. Any kind of race-related prequisite he's generally... persuadable, if not automatically allowing.

Illumians are from Races of Destiny, and they are a very secretive race...so they could have totally been there the whole time and no one knew....

[Lycanthromancer]

Or he could've mutated himself through magic.

[Cute_Riolu]

Or the runes could be magical effects of his own creation...

Fluff, as it happens, is quite mutable.

[RebelRogue]

No, because it says the text differently. If they wanted a copy paste: they would copy paste.
Compare Barb/Rogue's entry and Scouts. Scouts says never flat foot, Barbarian and rogues says react to danger.
Uncanny dodge (as worded in the PHB) only avoids the loss of Dex bonus in two specific situations anyway. Should the CA wording suddenly means no ways of making the Scout flatfooted (and yes, I'm aware of the difference between being flatfooted and merely denied Dex bonus). It sounds like a pretty shaky reading to me (though I agree it's poorly worded).

[Pluto]

So my question is: is he trying something? He's a Human Wizard 5/Scout 5 with a fondness for divination. Please reasure us that this combination is just a flavourful and underpowered archeologist as he says, and not going to lead into a horrifically overpowered Prc we're not aware of.

Please Please Please don't step on any Loredelver or Unseen Seer builds.

Unseen Seer looks pretty damned powerful (because it is). But with 5 caster levels lost, you have nothing to fear.

And Loremaster's just clean, healthy fun.

[Lycanthromancer]

I can't think of anything more powerful than full wizard casting other than Pun Pun or being a (non-casting) deity, so I'd be grateful that he DIDN'T make a wizard 10 (or wizard 5/full casting PrC 5).

[Doc Roc]

I can think of many.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm with Grumman on this, maybe he's going for swiftblade.
Though if the game starts at level 10, I'd personally have wizard 5, scout x, swift (5-x), this way I doesn't have to spend an entire level casting nothing but haste with my 3rd level slots.

[Emmerask]

About the only thing I could think of is trying to apply Skirmish to ability score damage/penalities, such as from Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) or Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm). The best way to avoid that abuse is to houserule that abilities like Skirmish and Sneak Attack don't deal additional ability damage.


Well it specifically states in complete arcane(p86) sneak attacking (or in that case skirmishing) with ability damage or energy drain spells deals negative energy damage instead of the drain/ability damage as a bonus :smallwink:

[weenie]

If he's trying anything at all, he's trying to make a swiftblade. In that case you should let him. The PrC is somewhat strong, but with his starting classes, him overpowering the party won't be an issue.

[HARLEYDUDE]

Ok so he has haste as a 3rd level spell. then the rest into scout.
I agree with Weenie he may be going for the swiftblade PrC. built on the wizards web site
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
i hope the link works
HD

[Zovc]

So my question is: is he trying something? He's a Human Wizard 5/Scout 5 with a fondness for divination. Please reasure us that this combination is just a flavourful and underpowered archeologist as he says, and not going to lead into a horrifically overpowered Prc we're not aware of. We'd dearly like to confirm from people smarter than us that this won't break the game!

Somewhat abrasive post spoilered:

It sounds to me like this player is well aware of what he's doing. He intentionally was making a weaker PC to test the waters with your group. From the way you're acting, you guys practically ran him off, flipping tables and stuff to distance your game from his broken build. I think you're trying to get someone to say "ZOMG THAT BUILD IS BROKEN" so you don't stop feeling bad about turning this player away.

Not trying to be a douche, just, rereading your first post and your continued posts, this is what I've deducted.

Seriously, his build is fine, it's weak, but capable of fun, cool stuff.