PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] "A Properly Built Fighter Can Beat a Raging Barbarian."



Zovc
2009-12-07, 05:19 PM
Maybe four years ago, in high school, I was talking with my friends about Dungeons and Dragons (this is before any of us had found our ways onto any forums/had any exposure to optimization). The DM at the time told me that a properly built fighter can beat a raging barbarian.

I didn't really think about what he said and just took his word on it, but this is kind of a vague statement. What is a properly built Fighter? How was the Barbarian built?

I know that the Barbarian is higher tier than the Fighter, and that he has a bigger hit die and damage reduction. Put rage on top of that and it seems to me like the Barbarian shouldn't have very much trouble smashing the fighter.

((I took a moment to look at the classes here.))

Okay, so the barbarian doesn't get Damage Reduction until level 7. He also doesn't get much to help him against a fighter (aside for more daily rages, which can only be used once an encounter in spite of how many daily uses he have).

Saintjebus
2009-12-07, 05:23 PM
I'm not really an optimizer, but it seems to be that it would come down to how high the barbarian could get his atk bonus vs how high the fighter could get his armor bonus. Everything I've heard, though, is that atk>defense pretty much always.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 05:24 PM
It depends. Is multiclassing allowed? Fighter/Barbarian is better than either. IT also depends on what books are game? Core, Barbarian wins hands down since Fighter's feats are reduced to crap like skill boosters (that still don't match Barbarian's 2 extra sp per level).

Out-of-Core, especially with Alternative Class Features in play, combat-wise Fighter will measure up quite fine; Barbarian's lack of feats will suddenly be a relevant player. Though if the Fighter isn't allowed to dip Barbarian for Pounce (which would enable Fighter-dip for the Barbarian for feats), he's still gonna be far behind.


EDIT: AC, without Improved Combat Expertise, isn't gonna be a player. A Core Barbarian can get his attack bonus to 50s. There isn't enough equipment in Core to gain AC in that class, and Fighter doesn't even have Uncanny Dodge. Out-of-core that changes too, but then Barbarian can just do a touch attack or something and still ignore AC entirely. No, AC isn't gonna be the key here.

Zovc
2009-12-07, 05:25 PM
This argument was based on core, as far as I can tell, and no, no multiclassing was factored in.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-07, 05:26 PM
Well, there's a lot of dependencies, there, but the statement is *mostly* true.

You can build a fighter to take down a specific barbarian build - no problem. If, when building the Fighter, you have a pretty good idea what the Barbarian's build is.

There's a lot of things in that, though; additionally most fighter builds benefit from a splash of Barbarian, and most Barbarian builds benefit from a splash of Fighter.

erikun
2009-12-07, 05:29 PM
Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper. Converting 20 AC into +60 damage a hit, especially when using miss chances to ignore AC issues, allows the Fighter to outdamage the Barbarian.

And indeed, grabbing all the feats for complex builds gives the Fighter the advantage of time - he can do so at a far earlier level than the Barbarian. Still, the Barbarian can (eventually) get the same feats as a Fighter, and the Ubercharger/Chain Tripper will eventually run into something where their tactics aren't useful... while a Barbarian is still a Barbarian, for good or ill.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 05:30 PM
The Barb will be better at one thing, the Fighter will have more tricks(assuming non-core, equal optimization, good builds, etc). The Barbarian adds a lot to Str, has better saves, and much more HP. The Fighter has feat chains. While the Barb is adding a lot of numbers to his Trip check, or charging for (1d12+400)x5 damage, the Fighter is making trip checks and charging and can bull rush. The Barb has one thing it does bette rthan the fighter, but the Fighter applies in more sitations.

The key IMHO is combining the 2. Barb X/Fighter(2, 4, or 6) can get you 2 feat chains instead of 1. That's enough to get you the Barb's massive numbers as well as the Fighters...we'll call it versatility, but it's still non-ToB melee. This works best if you add in PrCs and more dips, but that seems more complicated than what the OP wanted.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-07, 05:33 PM
What is a "Fighter"? As you asked, what constitutes "properly built"? Does "can beat" mean that the fighter can regularly beat the barbarian, or merely that the fighter has a chance of victory? A fighter can be an ubercharger, dungeoncrasher, or Jack B. Quick; a fighter can be a warrior with a few dozen extra hit points. Depending on the game, the ubercharger could be as improper as the pushover.

I read this as a statement defining "properly built fighter". What is a properly built fighter? A fighter that can beat a raging barbarian.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 05:35 PM
Too many unknown factors. What level? What available sources? And, importantly, what tactics are assumed? If restricted to Core material, the Barbarian will win a straight-out slugging match. There aren't enough or good enough damage-dealing feats for the Fighter to use to overcome the Barbarian's better HP and Damage Reduction. Although it should be a close thing- both combatants will probably be within one attack sequence of dropping when one of them goes down.

If you assume the Fighter is using combat tactics, however, then chances are he'll win. He'll have about an even or better chance to beat the Barbarian with a Disarm/Sunder/Trip check (+4 bonus from Imp-Whatever feat is equal or better than the Strength bonus from Raging, base Strength and weapon size assumed the same, Fighter may have an additional bonus from a tripping/disarming weapon), and he only needs to succeed on one of those to get a significant advantage against the Barbarian. 'course, the Barbarian may well have Improved Sunder too, since there's not a hell of a lot else that's very attractive for a high-level Barbarian in Core feats.. at which point it comes down to initiatiave and who smashes the other's weapon first.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 05:40 PM
In Core, you want:
Power Attack
Combat Expertise > Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Spirited Charge (3 feats)

All things considered, the Barbarian has the edge, since Rage gives better bonuses than Fighter's combat feats and the extra HP mean the Barb lasts longer with the same AC -2 most of the time. Also, extra speed, DR (actually relevant in Core!), etc. really, really help.

This assumes no Leadership, of course, which makes Fighter's feats slightly better (in that there's one more worthwhile feat to take for 'em). But yeah, +4-8 Str means the Trip-checks all favor the Barbarian, the same number means the Barbarian's damage and to hit are higher and the higher HD, Con-bonus and DR mean the Fighter lasts longer.


So in Core, no, a properly built Fighter "can't" beat a Barbarian. That is, he can, but that will always mean he got lucky.

Mongoose87
2009-12-07, 05:40 PM
If by properly built he means "Is a Cleric" then, undoubtedly so.

XBobbis
2009-12-07, 05:43 PM
How about a mounted combat fighter?

Or hell, a mounted fighter with a bow?

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 05:44 PM
How about a mounted combat fighter?

Or hell, a mounted fighter with a bow?

Obviously both sides are assumed to use mounts since Spirited Charge is the only way to deal a lot of damage in core on approach. Core bows...*chuckle*

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 05:50 PM
I'd actually put my chips down on a fighter at most levels. At 20, it's more about gear than class, but when they aren't running around like morons gate chaining things with candles, the fighter can hold his own.

It's mostly taking advantage of the -2 barb AC, and his own superior AC from armour. The fighter can afford to power attack more than the barb across pretty much every level, meaning the +1 HP per level of the barb and the DR are pretty much an even match. The fighter comes out a touch short in the realms of damage from other sources, but can come back from that with combat tricks, like readying against a charge, or using things such as trip to increase power attack.

Myshlaevsky
2009-12-07, 05:51 PM
It said something to this effect in the 3.0 DMG in the section about creating your own classes. I don't know whether this was replicated in the 3.5 one but this is probably where your DM got it from if not.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 05:54 PM
I'd actually put my chips down on a fighter at most levels. At 20, it's more about gear than class, but when they aren't running around like morons gate chaining things with candles, the fighter can hold his own.

It's mostly taking advantage of the -2 barb AC, and his own superior AC from armour. The fighter can afford to power attack more than the barb across pretty much every level, meaning the +1 HP per level of the barb and the DR are pretty much an even match. The fighter comes out a touch short in the realms of damage from other sources, but can come back from that with combat tricks, like readying against a charge, or using things such as trip to increase power attack.

What about the +4-8 Con from Rage? That's extra +2-4 HP per level. Also, the extra Str > extra feats in both, defending vs. opponent's Trip-checks and making your own.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-07, 05:55 PM
I'd actually put my chips down on a fighter at most levels. At 20, it's more about gear than class, but when they aren't running around like morons gate chaining things with candles, the fighter can hold his own.

It's mostly taking advantage of the -2 barb AC, and his own superior AC from armour. The fighter can afford to power attack more than the barb across pretty much every level, meaning the +1 HP per level of the barb and the DR are pretty much an even match. The fighter comes out a touch short in the realms of damage from other sources, but can come back from that with combat tricks, like readying against a charge, or using things such as trip to increase power attack.The Barb can PA for more, too, though, thanks to his higher Str from Rage.

Mongoose87
2009-12-07, 05:55 PM
I'd actually put my chips down on a fighter at most levels. At 20, it's more about gear than class, but when they aren't running around like morons gate chaining things with candles, the fighter can hold his own.

It's mostly taking advantage of the -2 barb AC, and his own superior AC from armour. The fighter can afford to power attack more than the barb across pretty much every level, meaning the +1 HP per level of the barb and the DR are pretty much an even match. The fighter comes out a touch short in the realms of damage from other sources, but can come back from that with combat tricks, like readying against a charge, or using things such as trip to increase power attack.

Why, exactly can he power attack higher? His BaB is the same ,and the Barbarian inevitably has a better to-hit, thanks to his Rage.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 05:59 PM
The Barb can PA for more, too, though, thanks to his higher Str from Rage.

In core, you're pretty much going to see fighters take weapon focus and improved weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved weapon specialization, not because they are good feats, but because fighters can't really fill out all those feat slots with more useful things in core.


What about the +4-8 Con from Rage? That's extra +2-4 HP per level. Also, the extra Str > extra feats in both, defending vs. opponent's Trip-checks and making your own.

After you deal the full normal amount you can just sit there poking and prodding while partial defensing and using combat expertise, or hiding behind a tower shield if you find time to don one (shouldn't be hard, it's a move action to put one on.) Those aren't realy hit points, as they go away real bloody quick. Lastly, the bonus to strength isn't better for tripping, as you'd still provoke and don't get a free attack off of a success.

Besides, +8 doesn't come out until late levels, where gear is more important than class for fighter types.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 06:00 PM
Why, exactly can he power attack higher? His BaB is the same ,and the Barbarian inevitably has a better to-hit, thanks to his Rage.

Because he'll have lower AC (worse armour and a penalty), and because a fighter has a fairly close to hit in core only, since weapon focus and improved weapon focus don't have as much competition as they do outside of core.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-07, 06:03 PM
In core, fighter and barbarian are about evenly matched. Outside core, I guess the fighter is ahead due to more feat options than barbarian class options.

Warblade from ToB, of course, is superior to both.

Overall, the barbarian is the easiest to play, explaining the popularity of the class.

- Giacomo

Starbuck_II
2009-12-07, 06:05 PM
Too many unknown factors. What level? What available sources? And, importantly, what tactics are assumed? If restricted to Core material, the Barbarian will win a straight-out slugging match. There aren't enough or good enough damage-dealing feats for the Fighter to use to overcome the Barbarian's better HP and Damage Reduction. Although it should be a close thing- both combatants will probably be within one attack sequence of dropping when one of them goes down.

If you assume the Fighter is using combat tactics, however, then chances are he'll win. He'll have about an even or better chance to beat the Barbarian with a Disarm/Sunder/Trip check (+4 bonus from Imp-Whatever feat is equal or better than the Strength bonus from Raging, base Strength and weapon size assumed the same, Fighter may have an additional bonus from a tripping/disarming weapon), and he only needs to succeed on one of those to get a significant advantage against the Barbarian. 'course, the Barbarian may well have Improved Sunder too, since there's not a hell of a lot else that's very attractive for a high-level Barbarian in Core feats.. at which point it comes down to initiatiave and who smashes the other's weapon first.

He clarifed Core.

And yes, DMG was screwy to think no class could beat a fighter in melee. Druids do it as a class feature.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 06:08 PM
It's mostly taking advantage of the -2 barb AC, and his own superior AC from armour.

They're both using Mithral Full Plate and an Animated Heavy Shield, if you're giving them level 20 cash to play with. Same AC, except for that -2 from Rage, which becomes +4 damage from extra reliable Power Attack bonus, which is countered by DR 5/- from the Barbarian.

.. assuming base stats and gear are the same, since relevant stats for damage output and survival and relevant good equipment are pretty much the same:
The Fighter has lots of feats, giving him +2 to hit, +4 damage, and an extra +4 on any relevant combat-maneuver checks.
The Barbarian has -2 AC, +4 to hit, +6 to damage, +4 on most combat checks, and DR 5/-.

Assuming all bonus to-hit is converted to damage via Power Attack: Fighter gets +12 damage (4 Weapon Spec +4 PA convert Weapon Focus +4 PA convert Barb's AC penalty) just for being a Fighter. 5 of that is removed by attacking unpassable DR, for a 7 point total from things the Barbarian can't also have.

The Barbarian gets +14 damage (+8 PA convert of Rage Strength bonus), with no reducing effects from the Fighter. 7 point edge to the Barbarian per blow traded, and the Barbarian started higher with his D12 HD and has his Con boosted by being in a Rage. Fighter can't win that just by trading attacks.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 06:09 PM
Of course then again, the fighter can also turtle behind a tower shield until the rage ends as well. At level 1, he can pull this off and then mop the floor with the now fatigued barbarian.

t_catt11
2009-12-07, 06:11 PM
This discussion reminds me of the old proverb, "the fox has a bag of many tricks, the porcupine has one very good one."

Though I may be paraphrasing a bit.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 06:11 PM
They're both using Mithral Full Plate and an Animated Heavy Shield, if you're giving them level 20 cash to play with. Same AC, except for that -2 from Rage, which becomes +4 damage from extra reliable Power Attack bonus, which is countered by DR 5/- from the Barbarian.

.. assuming base stats and gear are the same, since relevant stats for damage output and survival and relevant good equipment are pretty much the same:
The Fighter has lots of feats, giving him +2 to hit, +4 damage, and an extra +4 on any relevant combat-maneuver checks.
The Barbarian has -2 AC, +4 to hit, +6 to damage, +4 on most combat checks, and DR 5/-.


You're ignoring my statement about later levels not requiring class levels, because wealth takes precedence.


Assuming all bonus to-hit is converted to damage via Power Attack: Fighter gets +12 damage (4 Weapon Spec +4 PA convert Weapon Focus +4 PA convert Barb's AC penalty) just for being a Fighter. 5 of that is removed by attacking unpassable DR, for a 7 point total from things the Barbarian can't also have.

The Barbarian gets +14 damage (+8 PA convert of Rage Strength bonus), with no reducing effects from the Fighter. 7 point edge to the Barbarian per blow traded, and the Barbarian started higher with his D12 HD and has his Con boosted by being in a Rage. Fighter can't win that just by trading attacks.

How many fighter class feature feat slots did you just ignore there? As well, I stated that a fighter can afford such things as improved trip, which allow an additional +8 damage per hit.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 06:20 PM
You're ignoring my statement about later levels not requiring class levels, because wealth takes precedence.

How many fighter class feature feat slots did you just ignore there? As well, I stated that a fighter can afford such things as improved trip, which allow an additional +8 damage per hit.

On the contrary, that was the comparison of *only* class features, because high wealth provides an exactly equal starting point in everything else- the Barbarian and the Fighter will be using the same weapon, the same armor, the same array of stat and AC boosters. The Fighter gets his (Greater) Weapon Focus and Specialization, and any Improved (Combat Maneuver) feats he qualifies for (which is.. what, 10 or so feat slots for all of them? There's not much else relevant the Fighter could take with the other ones, which is why I 'ignored' them). The Barbarian gets his Rage and DR. That's what produced those numbers. I did not include the effects of a successful combat maneuver because you cannot guarantee it'll work. The Fighter can't even guarantee better odds- +8 Strength exactly balances against the +4 bonuses he gets for having the Imp. Whatever feats (and if you fail a trip check, the Barbarian has the advantage in counter-tripping; Imp. Trip does not apply when other people are tripping you.)

The numbers do favor the Fighter a little at lower levels, before the Barbarian's DR becomes relevant and before Mighty Rage, since it becomes available criminally late. But it's never a sure thing or even a probable thing; the Fighter will be betting on the dice the whole way.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 06:25 PM
At high levels, neither class will honestly use either of their class features in practice. Try it out in an arena match. One side will abuse candles of invocation and win, and it will be with complete disregard of the respective class features.

Also, again, you've not used any fighter class feature feats, so the argument that "It's a direct comparison of respective class features" isn't a very strong one, because you've neglected to include on set.

And it's not a very convincing argument that the barbarian requires level 20 to be better than the fighter as a rebuttle against my particular statements, which were explicitly lower levels.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 06:29 PM
Also, again, you've not used any fighter class feature feats, so the argument that "It's a direct comparison of respective class features" isn't a very strong one, because you've neglected to include on set.


WHAT "Fighter class feature feats"? There's Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. They're in there. They come just short of the benefits of Rage. There's nothing else that is truly Fighter specific. The Fighter is more *likely* to have and make use of combat-maneuver feats, but the Barbarian can have them too and even when the Fighter has them and the Barbarian doesn't it doesn't give the Fighter a significant edge in using them.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 06:30 PM
In core, you're pretty much going to see fighters take weapon focus and improved weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved weapon specialization, not because they are good feats, but because fighters can't really fill out all those feat slots with more useful things in core.

On every level though, the Raging Barbarian is ahead in To Hit and Damage in spite of this. Level 1, easily. Level 4, fairly. Level 8, only 1 damage, but still ahead. Level 11-12, more. Level 20, even more.


After you deal the full normal amount you can just sit there poking and prodding while partial defensing and using combat expertise, or hiding behind a tower shield if you find time to don one (shouldn't be hard, it's a move action to put one on.) Those aren't realy hit points, as they go away real bloody quick. Lastly, the bonus to strength isn't better for tripping, as you'd still provoke and don't get a free attack off of a success.

Besides, +8 doesn't come out until late levels, where gear is more important than class for fighter types.

Eh, D&D fights just plain don't last that long. It isn't hard to Sunder the living hell out of Tower Shield; one-two attack actions at most. And any other form of defense is simply going to be inadequate. I think it's bloody obvious that both sides will have Improved Trip. It's the best combat feat in core, par none. So yeah, both are going to get the bonus attacks and avoid AoOs (which you already do by just tripping armed). Barbarian is gonna have +2-+4 to both checks in addition to damage and HP advantage.


The HP still last ~min - two. Sure, that means he'll need to gulp potions or whatever afterwards, but that doesn't really matter if he won, did it?

Starbuck_II
2009-12-07, 06:31 PM
Of course then again, the fighter can also turtle behind a tower shield until the rage ends as well. At level 1, he can pull this off and then mop the floor with the now fatigued barbarian.

Can't the Barb just Sunder the Tower Shield as Fighter can't do anything (even AoO) while hiding behind shield.

HCL
2009-12-07, 06:31 PM
If you want combat expertise you have to have 13+ int. Thats 5 points you can't put into STR and con.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 06:32 PM
If you want combat expertise you have to have 13+ int. Thats 5 points you can't put into STR and con.

Improved Trip is worth it. Both sides should have it.

HCL
2009-12-07, 06:33 PM
Also, Wolf Lodge Berserker, if it is allowed for the barbarian is superior to combat expertise.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 06:36 PM
If we're discussing Core, that's a non-issue. If we're discussing out-of-core, this becomes so mucked that...well, I'll leave you to figure out the mess. Core still contains a calculable amount of eventualities and relevant options, but once we bring out-of-core effects in play, things just blow up; we'd have to consider how strongly for this fight the characters are built (stuff like Elusive Target is of huge relevance here), what tactics are the optimal and we end up with a rock-paper-scissors table of variety of builds that perform in various ways against various builds and bla bla bla bla bla.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 06:37 PM
If you want combat expertise you have to have 13+ int. Thats 5 points you can't put into STR and con.

I was assuming an "Elite" array placed as Str 15, Con 14, Int 13, Dex 12, Wis and Cha irrelevant. The only variation that would make sense, mechanically, would perhaps be switching Dex and Con for an AoO-based build. It skews the comparisons if you use more individualized numbers- the Fighter may opt for Combat Expertize and its descendants where the Barbarian doesn't, but the Barbarian will have more of a raw numbers lead even outside of raging.

Tshern
2009-12-07, 06:44 PM
Also, the Barbarian can use a mithral fullplate, so the Fighter won't have a better armour. Animated shields are golden, too. Whatever items the Fighter can get, Barbarians have access to them as well. It is worth noting though that the mithral fullplate isn't exactly a low level strategy.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 06:47 PM
WHAT "Fighter class feature feats"? There's Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. They're in there. They come just short of the benefits of Rage. There's nothing else that is truly Fighter specific. The Fighter is more *likely* to have and make use of combat-maneuver feats, but the Barbarian can have them too and even when the Fighter has them and the Barbarian doesn't it doesn't give the Fighter a significant edge in using them.

You have failed to fill in the other 7 feat slots and account for them that the fighter gets in addition to the ones that either of them could get. It's basically the same as the barbarian having rage, but not using it.


On every level though, the Raging Barbarian is ahead in To Hit and Damage in spite of this. Level 1, easily. Level 4, fairly. Level 8, only 1 damage, but still ahead. Level 11-12, more. Level 20, even more.

The OPs question was a vs. one. At level 1, the barbarian has a +2 to hit, +4 to damage. The fighter has +4 to hit compared to the barb, as he can afford a chain shirt and greatsword while the barbarian cannot. A +4 to hit with power attack translates to +2 to hit and 4 additional damage, which simply means that unless the barbarian did not have power attack at level 1, the fighter has 2 fewer hit points, but has more feats, such as say, improved initiative.

At level 4, the fighter is wearing plate, and the barb breastplate, meaning his AC is 5 points lower from pure armour, though if his dex is high enough, he may be 3 behind in AC. Fighter has +4 effective to hit or +2 to hit, +6 to damage thanks to weapon spec. Barb? Still +2 to hit, +4 to damage.

This sort of paradigm keeps going up until it reverses at 20, and only at 20.


Eh, D&D fights just plain don't last that long. It isn't hard to Sunder the living hell out of Tower Shield; one-two attack actions at most. And any other form of defense is simply going to be inadequate. I think it's bloody obvious that both sides will have Improved Trip.

It's the best combat feat in core, par none. So yeah, both are going to get the bonus attacks and avoid AoOs (which you already do by just tripping armed). Barbarian is gonna have +2-+4 to both checks in addition to damage and HP advantage.


No one has posited taking improved trip on the barbarian before. I have had this argument before, and I'll fill out the fighter's full feats suite and every addition will get the comment of "Well of course the barbarian would take it too, it's just too good blah blah." The truth is, the fighter will have more of those options, and the options that he can take are relevant, such as improved disarm, which can be a singular deciding factor in this kind of matchup.


The HP still last ~min - two. Sure, that means he'll need to gulp potions or whatever afterwards, but that doesn't really matter if he won, did it?

I'm positing that a fighter can boost his AC to insure neither of them wins for those 2 minutes. Change to a sword and board (move action) with partial defense and combat expertise, and it will be rather drawn out.

ericgrau
2009-12-07, 06:53 PM
I've figured this out before, average damage per round vs HP of opponent and all, and assuming the barbarian also wore full plate he won by a hair. But the fighter had half a dozen feats leftover that he could use for things besides +X to this or that. Most barbarians wear medium armor, and mithral full plate gives a worse AC bonus than equally priced magical enchantments until high levels. But yeah, it's incredibly close so in the end it's a matter of whether or not you want bonus feats or uncanny dodge and etc.

EDIT: Btw, IIRC the fight takes only 3-4 rounds even with good AC optimization. Once you get into full attacks with boots of speed it eats away HP fast.

deuxhero
2009-12-07, 06:55 PM
Marbles=win

...No wait, that was frenzy.

Eldariel
2009-12-07, 07:00 PM
The OPs question was a vs. one. At level 1, the barbarian has a +2 to hit, +4 to damage. The fighter has +4 to hit compared to the barb, as he can afford a chain shirt and greatsword while the barbarian cannot. A +4 to hit with power attack translates to +2 to hit and 4 additional damage, which simply means that unless the barbarian did not have power attack at level 1, the fighter has 2 fewer hit points, but has more feats, such as say, improved initiative.

At level 4, the fighter is wearing plate, and the barb breastplate, meaning his AC is 5 points lower from pure armour, though if his dex is high enough, he may be 3 behind in AC. Fighter has +4 effective to hit or +2 to hit, +6 to damage thanks to weapon spec. Barb? Still +2 to hit, +4 to damage.

This sort of paradigm keeps going up until it reverses at 20, and only at 20.

Huh? Level 1 Barb can buy Chainmail; they'll have the same AC unless their Dex is 16+. Additionally, thanks to Fast Movement, Barbarian's movement is still the same as Fighter's even if Fighter uses Light Armor and Barbarian uses Medium Armor.

Level 4 you're right, the Fighter is ~+2-+3 ahead thanks to Plate and Barbarian most likely not maxing out Breastplate yet (and Rage). However, as soon as the Barbarian can afford Gloves of Dex +2, that advantage will diminish to +1 where it will remain until level ~13-15 where both get Mithril Full-Plates and have equivalent ACs, except the -2 of Rage.


No one has posited taking improved trip on the barbarian before. I have had this argument before, and I'll fill out the fighter's full feats suite and every addition will get the comment of "Well of course the barbarian would take it too, it's just too good blah blah." The truth is, the fighter will have more of those options, and the options that he can take are relevant, such as improved disarm, which can be a singular deciding factor in this kind of matchup.

I listed the 7 feats I'd expect Barbarian to pick in PA, CE, IT, CR, MC -> SC in my very first post in the thread. Taking II over CR would be well-founded for this exercise but ultimately, if we're comparing actual characters that could see play instead of specifically constructed builds, CR makes more sense everywhere else.


I'm positing that a fighter can boost his AC to insure neither of them wins for those 2 minutes. Change to a sword and board (move action) with partial defense and combat expertise, and it will be rather drawn out.

Depends on the level. Level 1? Sure. Level 10? Good luck. Turtling just nukes the Fighter's offense meaning free hits for the Barbarian; hardly a winning strategy.

tyckspoon
2009-12-07, 07:01 PM
You have failed to fill in the other 7 feat slots and account for them that the fighter gets in addition to the ones that either of them could get. It's basically the same as the barbarian having rage, but not using it.


I'm already assuming he has all of the Imp. Whatevers, as well as anything that provides a passive bonus. I'm just not assuming they'll work when he tries them- they could be the deciding factor, but they could also fail and be wasted actions that put the Barbarian farther in front. What else, in Core, would be relevant? I'll happily include it if you tell me what you think the Fighter should be using.

For reference, this is assuming any sane Core melee combatant will have Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and Improved Trip as soon as feasible. The specific order is variable and may differ depending on level, but normally I would go for Imp Initiative first, Power Attack at 3, then Expertise and Trip at 6 and 9.

Edit: Oh, wait, the Fighter could take Dodge. Barbarian won't bother until way high levels, if at all, as he has much more useful things to do with those feats. That'd tip the Fighter's AC 1 in his favor.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 09:14 PM
Huh? Level 1 Barb can buy Chainmail; they'll have the same AC unless their Dex is 16+. Additionally, thanks to Fast Movement, Barbarian's movement is still the same as Fighter's even if Fighter uses Light Armor and Barbarian uses Medium Armor.

Actually, I was getting mixed up a bit. It should be scale armour in both cases. However, the point with that situation still stands. The barb spends his hundred for armour and the great sword. The fighter does the same and has enough left over for a shield and ranged weaponry. The barb is either going to have to settle with less armour, or risks getting shot up before melee.


Level 4 you're right, the Fighter is ~+2-+3 ahead thanks to Plate and Barbarian most likely not maxing out Breastplate yet (and Rage). However, as soon as the Barbarian can afford Gloves of Dex +2, that advantage will diminish to +1 where it will remain until level ~13-15 where both get Mithril Full-Plates and have equivalent ACs, except the -2 of Rage.

At the level of +2 dexterity for the barbarian with mythral fullplate, the fighter can avoid mythral and the dex for +1 deflection instead. If you are maxing out AC, small bonuses that increase later is better than trying to get a little from the high cost of dex.


I listed the 7 feats I'd expect Barbarian to pick in PA, CE, IT, CR, MC -> SC in my very first post in the thread. Taking II over CR would be well-founded for this exercise but ultimately, if we're comparing actual characters that could see play instead of specifically constructed builds, CR makes more sense everywhere else.

Missed that, as I entered the conversation after that specific set of feats.


Depends on the level. Level 1? Sure. Level 10? Good luck. Turtling just nukes the Fighter's offense meaning free hits for the Barbarian; hardly a winning strategy.

I'd be willing to give that a try actually. Focusing on AC above attack bonuses can work out if you focus in that direction hard enough, and it's not a poor strategy in situations where you know you'll be facing mostly martial types, so I have seen it in game before.

HCL
2009-12-07, 09:29 PM
Here is a level 1 barbarian build to beat

Dwarf, core barbarian
Power attack
Gear: Spiked Locked Gauntlets, Guisarme and Longspear (vs chargers), Studded Leather
Upgrade to Lance with Horse and Breast plate when he gets the cash

Moves at 30' so not vulnerable to archer sniping, higher AB and damage than human fighter, +10 on defense against disarm (gauntlets cant be disarmed), +4 against trip


2 flaws noncore
Azurin Barbarian, whirling frenzy with lion totem variant or Standard Rage, Berserker Strength, or Ferocity with variants with Jaguar totem
Feat1: Wolf Lodge Berserker (+4 trip)
Human Bonus: Improved Trip (+4 trip)
Flaw1: Jotunbrud (+4 trip)
Flaw2: Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws (+13 health)
Same gear

I think you could make an argument that they are even at level 2 as you could put a wild dwarf anything on a Desmodu hunting bat with a lance to do an assload of damage with no vulnerability to archers.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 09:36 PM
2 flaws noncore
Azurin Barbarian, whirling frenzy with lion totem variant or Standard Rage, Berserker Strength, or Ferocity with variants with Jaguar totem
Feat1: Wolf Lodge Berserker (+4 trip)
Human Bonus: Improved Trip (+4 trip)
Flaw1: Jotunbrud (+4 trip)
Flaw2: Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws (+13 health)


Not improved trip.

In Core Barb wins 9 times out of 10. Out of Core Lv 1 Barb probably still wins 9 times out of game. However out of core a well designed Lv 10 fighter will paste a Lv 10 Barb more often then not, I think. There's just too many decent splatbook trips to pull

HCL
2009-12-07, 09:38 PM
Not improved trip.

In Core Barb wins 9 times out of 10. Out of Core Lv 1 Barb probably still wins 9 times out of game. However out of core a well designed Lv 10 fighter will paste a Lv 10 Barb more often then not, I think. There's just too many decent splatbook trips to pull

What do you mean not improved trip? Wolf berserker lodge qualifies me.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 09:45 PM
Ah, my mistake... In my defence Unapprouchable East is... Well, there's a pity there's no vomiting smiley.

Ok, RAWwise that's fine but do you seriously have a DM that lets you take the Lion Totem pounce and then join a wolf lodge? I mean I know there;s no Lion lodge but that seems a little off to me

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 09:47 PM
That and the discussion is core only.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 09:50 PM
That and the discussion is core only.

Ohh... Then sadly, even at Lv 8, which is probably when the Fighter has the best chance, I doubt he's coming out ahead

Edit: Although, if he comes with a mount and Spirited Charge and Ride by attack... And the Barb comes with no mount, then probably...

HCL
2009-12-07, 09:58 PM
The barbarian just would need a Longspear and a good hit, or trip the horse/griffon/whatever on the readied action/aoo with a guisarme.

I think the better option might be an archer. A horseback archer in core, otherwise you could use a xeph or duskling

Deepblue706
2009-12-07, 10:20 PM
Has anyone considered that it may be an illuminating and perhaps even entertaining idea to divide people into teams of say, 5 people, and have them each dream Fighters and Barbarians as a collaborative effort?

Cuz, I'd participate.

Edit: Oh, of course there'd have to be a post-game analysis of each move, from both ends.

Yukitsu
2009-12-07, 10:22 PM
Likewise. Though I do tend to be rather tricky, rather than direct.

icefractal
2009-12-08, 05:19 AM
Actually, I was getting mixed up a bit. It should be scale armour in both cases. However, the point with that situation still stands. The barb spends his hundred for armour and the great sword. The fighter does the same and has enough left over for a shield and ranged weaponry. The barb is either going to have to settle with less armour, or risks getting shot up before melee.What the? The Barbarian buys a Glaive (the AoO from reach should make up for the 1.5 less damage), and either Javelins or a Sling. Total cost: 9-18 gp.

Prime32
2009-12-08, 07:33 AM
It said something to this effect in the 3.0 DMG in the section about creating your own classes. I don't know whether this was replicated in the 3.5 one but this is probably where your DM got it from if not.Yep, Zovc's DM just directly quoted it.


In core, fighter and barbarian are about evenly matched. Outside core, I guess the fighter is ahead due to more feat options than barbarian class options.

Warblade from ToB, of course, is superior to both.

Overall, the barbarian is the easiest to play, explaining the popularity of the class.

- GiacomoActually a charge-centric barbarian can out-damage a warblade, it just can't do as many other things like extinguishing the sun. Fighter is Tier 5, Barbarian and Dungeoncrasher variant Fighter are Tier 4, and ToB classes are Tier 3. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

Kalirren
2009-12-08, 09:09 AM
Right...so Core.

First question: at what level? Level 20? Barbarian wins, hands down. Fighter doesn't have anything to do with half his feats.

Level 1? Fighter may win. A high-AC strategy may make it hard for the barb to land a hit while raging.

Beyond that I'm really not sure, it depends on who has a horse/flying eagle...?

If we were restricting to close-quarters infantry combat, at Level 3, I'd guess that Fighter almost definitely wins? Spiked chain cheese is viable at this level, and the two-feat advantage is pretty significant.

Telonius
2009-12-08, 09:29 AM
Prior to level 17, there are quite a lot of things for a Core Fighter to do that can ruin a Core Barbarian's day. Rage is only once per encounter. Net, Tanglefoot bag, even Caltrops can (effectively) reduce the number of rounds Rage is in effect. All the fighter really has to do is evade until the Rage wears off. After it expires, Fighter has a big advantage. Even after 17 (when the Barbarian gets tireless rage) the Fighter no longer loses out for attack and damage.

He could also try to UMD a Calm Emotions spell, but that's kind of dicey since it involves a Will save. (And even if it works, it's really more like a Bard or a Cleric defeating the Barbarian). I've also never been quite sure how a "Duration: Concentration" spell works in scroll form...

Another_Poet
2009-12-08, 10:20 AM
With the right feats and good use of WBL I would say this is true at any level 1-20. The feats and better AC options are what make it for the fighter.

In fact if I would say that if your fighter can't go toe-to-toe with a barbarian of the same level you are doing something wrong.

ap

Tshern
2009-12-08, 10:28 AM
Prior to level 17, there are quite a lot of things for a Core Fighter to do that can ruin a Core Barbarian's day. Rage is only once per encounter. Net, Tanglefoot bag, even Caltrops can (effectively) reduce the number of rounds Rage is in effect. All the fighter really has to do is evade until the Rage wears off. After it expires, Fighter has a big advantage. Even after 17 (when the Barbarian gets tireless rage) the Fighter no longer loses out for attack and damage.

He could also try to UMD a Calm Emotions spell, but that's kind of dicey since it involves a Will save. (And even if it works, it's really more like a Bard or a Cleric defeating the Barbarian). I've also never been quite sure how a "Duration: Concentration" spell works in scroll form...
Good luck evading, it's a touch attack and the Barbarian ough to have a decent AB.

And yes, similarly the Barbarian could UMD a sroll of Gate and call an army of Solars to deal with the Fighter, but that probably isn't the point of the challenge.

Too bad this is core only. Outside core Barbarian would not only get pounce, but also the Rage Celerity Blitzkrieg trick, which is a neat bonus.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 10:29 AM
With the right feats and good use of WBL I would say this is true at any level 1-20. The feats and better AC options are what make it for the fighter.

In fact if I would say that if your fighter can't go toe-to-toe with a barbarian of the same level you are doing something wrong.

ap
Barbarian can use a mithral fullplate and an animated shield just like a Fighter can and still have greater speed. The better AC options then come from Dodge and the -2 penalty Rage imposes.

Tavar
2009-12-08, 10:33 AM
Level 1? Fighter may win. A high-AC strategy may make it hard for the barb to land a hit while raging.
Actually, it's rather hard to get high AC before level 3 or so. Remember that you can't afford Plate until that point, so it comes down to Dex+light/meduim armor, which the barbarian can easily match.

Telonius
2009-12-08, 10:49 AM
Good luck evading, it's a touch attack and the Barbarian ough to have a decent AB.

What does the barbarian's attack bonus have to do with it? Net and Tanglefoot Bags are both a touch attack vs AC. Barb will only have 10+Dex+Deflection AC - probably somewhere around 14-15 at most at lower levels, less if he's raging.

Barbarian's strengths in the fight come from three main areas. One, increased strength and damage due to raging. (This is the biggest advantage). Two, abilities (like DR) that come from the Barbarian class. Three, slightly better hit points. Fighter's strengths come from better feats. If the Fighter neutralizes rage, an extra feat every two levels beats the Barbarian abilities and 1hp per level.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 10:53 AM
What does the barbarian's attack bonus have to do with it? Net and Tanglefoot Bags are both a touch attack vs AC. Barb will only have 10+Dex+Deflection AC - probably somewhere around 14-15 at most at lower levels, less if he's raging.

Barbarian's strengths in the fight come from three main areas. One, increased strength and damage due to raging. (This is the biggest advantage). Two, abilities (like DR) that come from the Barbarian class. Three, slightly better hit points. Fighter's strengths come from better feats. If the Fighter neutralizes rage, an extra feat every two levels beats the Barbarian abilities and 1hp per level.

What can he get with the feats? Dodge, WF-line, II and Barb-feats...and then what? Maybe he'd like some Skill Foci? Or Mobility + Spring Attack + Whirlwind Attack? Or anything else equally useless? In Core, the whole Fighter's "there aren't enough feats that contribute to what you're usually doing to make bonus feats a worthwhile class feature" catches up to him.

Also, Tanglefoot Bag has a rather easy save; come level 8-9 and the Barbarian isn't gonna be failing it, while the Fighter is gonna be wasting actions throwing it. Yeah, if the Fighter can neutralize the Rage, he's fine, but that's easier said than done. If the Barbarian is Raging, the Fighter loses the face-off. And this thread was about a Raging Barbarian.


The AB was at the various "but Fighter can just turtle up"-**** I'd imagine.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 10:56 AM
What the? The Barbarian buys a Glaive (the AoO from reach should make up for the 1.5 less damage), and either Javelins or a Sling. Total cost: 9-18 gp.

In vs. neither gets AoO, as you lose initiative and get charged where you are now close enough that it doesn't matter. He's basically traded off 1.5 damage, which is about the same as saying they have the same attack and damage anyway, though in a different manner of speaking.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 10:57 AM
In vs. neither gets AoO, as you lose initiative and get charged where you are now close enough that it doesn't matter. He's basically traded off 1.5 damage, which is about the same as saying they have the same attack and damage anyway, though in a different manner of speaking.

Until Combat Reflexes comes into play at any rate. But yeah, probably not on level 1. However, not all fights start within charge distance... In fact, on open plains there should always be at least 100' range.

Telonius
2009-12-08, 10:58 AM
The save doesn't matter. Even on a successful save, Barbarian only moves at half speed until he scrapes it off. Scraping it off takes a round - another round off the rage ticker. If he doesn't scrape it off, Fighter has better mobility. His speed will be 30, to the Barbarian's 20. Barbarian won't be able to get to him.

For Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical, Point Blank Shot -> Shot on the Run (to help with entangling tactics), Quick Draw, the Weapon Focus line (four feats there). That's ten useful Core Fighter feats right off. Seven regular feats and another Fighter feat to go. Toughness (blegh, I know) would negate the Barbarian's HP advantage.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 10:59 AM
Barbarian can use a mithral fullplate and an animated shield just like a Fighter can and still have greater speed. The better AC options then come from Dodge and the -2 penalty Rage imposes.

Actually, IMO, the better AC comes from the money saved not bothering with mythral or dex boosters and instead getting full plate and AC boosting items.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 11:04 AM
The save doesn't matter. Even on a successful save, Barbarian only moves at half speed until he scrapes it off. Scraping it off takes a round - another round off the rage ticker. If he doesn't scrape it off, Fighter has better mobility. His speed will be 30, to the Barbarian's 20. Barbarian won't be able to get to him.

Eh, depends. If e.g. Boots of Speed are involved (seems likely around 7-8), the Fighter needs to be really far away to be out of charge range. Tanglefoot Bag's max range is 50', so throwing it, hitting and getting out of charge range is really gonna require some acrobatics. Mostly a starting position too precise to guarantee. Also note how creatures flying with magic don't really care about it.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 11:05 AM
Until Combat Reflexes comes into play at any rate. But yeah, probably not on level 1. However, not all fights start within charge distance... In fact, on open plains there should always be at least 100' range.

Even at 100, which I suspect is being brought up simply because it favours the barbarian at this point in time (after all, it's a comparison of melee classes trying to melee eachother to death) reach doesn't matter all too much at these levels. Fighter readies a standard to 5 foot step in when he's in threatened range to get into melee range of the barbarian to avoid the AoO and the charge.

It's possible to dance around AoO up until the sides both get enlarge person from some reliable source.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 11:07 AM
Even at 100, which I suspect is being brought up simply because it favours the barbarian at this point in time (after all, it's a comparison of melee classes trying to melee eachother to death) reach doesn't matter all too much at these levels. Fighter readies a standard to 5 foot step in when he's in threatened range to get into melee range of the barbarian to avoid the AoO and the charge.

I brought 100' up because by RAW the encounter begins when combatants spot each other and you can on average make an untrained Spot-check 100' away (DC 0 + 1 per 10'; your 1d20 averages 10.5).

Grifthin
2009-12-08, 11:25 AM
Why don't one of you each build a fighter 20 and Barbarian 20 ? Then we pit barbarian against fighter in arena match. No magic gear, nothing. Just regular ol armor/weapons.

Each person can bring up to two weapons, only PHB and we use a 28 Pointbuy system ?

That way it's down to class features not fancy kit.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 11:27 AM
Why don't one of you each build a fighter 20 and Barbarian 20 ? Then we pit barbarian against fighter in arena match. No magic gear, nothing. Just regular ol armor/weapons.

Each person can bring up to two weapons, only PHB and we use a 28 Pointbuy system ?

That way it's down to class features not fancy kit.

Well...
1) That isn't very representative of the way the game works.
2) That trivializes AC, among other things.
3) Some random things that would normally be rather useless suddenly become stellar because of stuff like flight, haste and teleportation.
4) Level 20 isn't representative of all the levels of the game.

Grifthin
2009-12-08, 11:39 AM
Well obviously it's just a suggestion. People more knowledgeable then me can obviously say what will be fair and balanced better than I can. Why not take the rules from one of the other arena threads then ? Just ammend them to PHB specific. I mean that's one way to see which is superior ?

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 11:42 AM
Well obviously it's just a suggestion. People more knowledgeable then me can obviously say what will be fair and balanced better than I can. Why not take the rules from one of the other arena threads then ? Just ammend them to PHB specific. I mean that's one way to see which is superior ?

So much comes down to equipment and character build that it frankly comes down to individual optimization skills. The only real way to do it would be to have the same guy build and play both, but how's THAT for biased? And then it comes down to whether the builds are specifically optimized for this duel or for a campaign; they'd look vastly different and have a vastly different equipment payload in each case. Those are the principal issues and why arena tests are so incredibly useless for everything. Oh, and arena combat environment rarely resembles what you'd face in a campaign, and campaigns vary too.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 11:51 AM
Yes, but the OPs question is more an arena one than a campaign one in nature. The only thing I find questionable is level 20 and no gear.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 11:56 AM
What does the barbarian's attack bonus have to do with it? Net and Tanglefoot Bags are both a touch attack vs AC. Barb will only have 10+Dex+Deflection AC - probably somewhere around 14-15 at most at lower levels, less if he's raging.

Barbarian's strengths in the fight come from three main areas. One, increased strength and damage due to raging. (This is the biggest advantage). Two, abilities (like DR) that come from the Barbarian class. Three, slightly better hit points. Fighter's strengths come from better feats. If the Fighter neutralizes rage, an extra feat every two levels beats the Barbarian abilities and 1hp per level.
It was a comment to the part where you said the Fighter has to evade, nothing to do with the tanglefoot bags. Which, by the way, the Barbarian can use just like the Fighter.

Eldariel
2009-12-08, 11:56 AM
Yes, but the OPs question is more an arena one than a campaign one in nature. The only thing I find questionable is level 20 and no gear.

Indeed. And gear, in turn, becomes the defining factor when allowed. Mayhap have both characters use the same (or third-party made) set of equipment with small choices like the exact weapon used only up to the player?

This way they'd have a level-representative equipment, but the victor would be decided by the character builds (and luck; maybe we should just run probabilities on who is likelier to win instead of actually playing it out).

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 11:59 AM
Indeed. And gear, in turn, becomes the defining factor when allowed. Mayhap have both characters use the same (or third-party made) set of equipment with small choices like the exact weapon used only up to the player?

This way they'd have a level-representative equipment, but the victor would be decided by the character builds (and luck; maybe we should just run probabilities on who is likelier to win instead of actually playing it out).

I don't particularly like identical gear sets. It assumes both characters will try to win in identical ways, and it also means either the barb will have a ton of superfluous items that he had to pay for that suppliment the fighters feats, or the fighter doesn't have the right tool to use his feats.

At the high level sort of area, the gear is more important than the class in either case.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 12:00 PM
Actually, IMO, the better AC comes from the money saved not bothering with mythral or dex boosters and instead getting full plate and AC boosting items.
The mithral property to the fullplate is, unless I am mistaken, 9k. That's hardly something to worry about. Also, using a fullplate makes the Fighter very slow indeed, which is the reason why I tend to, pretty much regardless of the character, to use mithral breastplates, but that's a discussion for another thread...

Grifthin
2009-12-08, 12:02 PM
What about a sum of money allowing for the purchase of X items, dissalowing candle's etc. Or use probabilities like someone else mentioned.

Rake
2009-12-08, 12:05 PM
Core? Without talking about [specific build] vs. [specific build], the fighter wins easily. The barbarian spends half the fight prone on the floor and the fighter goes first, has higher AC, can disarm and sunder, and is much more likely to have Leadership and / or have purchased a mount. Attack bonuses on both sides will be roughly the same, and the barbarian's higher damage output will not come into play often enough to save him (with so many rounds spent standing up from prone and getting around reach / cohort issues).

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 12:05 PM
The mithral property to the fullplate is, unless I am mistaken, 9k. That's hardly something to worry about. Also, using a fullplate makes the Fighter very slow indeed, which is the reason why I tend to, pretty much regardless of the character, to use mithral breastplates, but that's a discussion for another thread...

Which opens up 2 points of AC, but does not grant 2 AC. On the other hand, 9K can net you 2 points of actual AC.

The dex to fill that up is another 16K for 25 K in favour of buying say, +2 natural armour, +3 deflection. So +5 AC compared to +2.

Later of course, the gap may close a little depending upon spending priorities, but that 25K will always be just enough to be relevant.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 12:11 PM
Core? Without talking about [specific build] vs. [specific build], the fighter wins easily. The barbarian spends half the fight prone on the floor and the fighter goes first, has higher AC, can disarm and sunder, and is much more likely to have Leadership and / or have purchased a mount. Attack bonuses on both sides will be roughly the same, and the barbarian's higher damage output will not come into play often enough to save him (with so many rounds spent standing up from prone and getting around reach / cohort issues).
Dear lord... The Barbarian is going to have a higher trip checks, because of higher strength. Leadership is a joke, because that means the fight will never be between the two classes mentioned here, but Shapechanging and Gating Wizards. If Leadership is allowed neither of the original characters matter at all.

Disarming doesn't work either, because locked gauntlets makes the Barbarian virtually immune to that. Sundering just means destroying your own loot and is based on an opposed check and the Barbarian has the edge due to higher strength. The Fighter will be, assuming normal rage and Fighter's Improved sunder, just too points ahead there.

Yukitsu: I am not arguing the Barbarian is going to have a higher armour class, but he can easily match the Fighter. The 9k can easily be dismissed by dropping +1 enchantment bonus from the weapon for example. The Barb would still have the strength to defeat Fighter's AB and damage. This is not, however, the route I'd advocate.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 12:14 PM
It's not a 9K difference. To make use of it, it's 25K. At the level this comes up, that's a major difference. I'm saying that a barb will not match the fighter given standard priorities.

Also, on the grand metagame, the barb decreasing his attack to increase his AC by 0 is rather in the fighter's favour, unless he's decreasing his attack by 3, and still has AC less by 1 compared to the fighter.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 12:22 PM
It's not a 9K difference. To make use of it, it's 25K. At the level this comes up, that's a major difference. I'm saying that a barb will not match the fighter given standard priorities.

Also, on the grand metagame, the barb decreasing his attack to increase his AC by 0 is rather in the fighter's favour, unless he's decreasing his attack by 3, and still has AC less by 1 compared to the fighter.
I am afraid I don't follow. Assuming the Barbarian wants a mithral fullplate, he will have to pay the cost of having it made of mithral, a cost that is 9k. At least according to the SRD it does. What's the misunderstanding here?

It was an example, you might have seen the part where I said I wouldn't do it. Nevertheless, with 9k the Barbarian can match Fighter's AC, it is just a matter of getting that 9k from somewhere. He only needs 9 ranks (since he'll have intelligence score of 13 for Combat expertise) in Craft (armoursmithing) to drop that 9k to 3k, which makes it cheaper still.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 12:26 PM
I am afraid I don't follow. Assuming the Barbarian wants a mithral fullplate, he will have to pay the cost of having it made of mithral, a cost that is 9k. At least according to the SRD it does. What's the misunderstanding here?

Unless you also want a 16 dexterity at the start to make use of it, he needs a +4 dexterity item. Alternatively, this is at the point where the fighter has normal plate and a +2 natural armour item (and 1K left over), which means the fighter has 4 more AC. Basically, you're assuming the barbarian has mythral, and that the fighter either follows suit or buys nothing. In practice, he obtains an additional +2 AC.


It was an example, you might have seen the part where I said I wouldn't do it. Nevertheless, with 9k the Barbarian can match Fighter's AC, it is just a matter of getting that 9k from somewhere. He only needs 9 ranks (since he'll have intelligence score of 13 for Combat expertise) in Craft (armoursmithing) to drop that 9k to 3k, which makes it cheaper still.

And assuming that, one could say the fighter can start with even more armour and weaponry as an advantage, however, typically, these sorts of matches don't allow additional self crafting, as that mythral plate assumes almost a lifetime of downtime. 9 GP a week, so a thousand weeks IIRC.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 12:30 PM
Unless you also want a 16 dexterity at the start to make use of it, he needs a +4 dexterity item. Alternatively, this is at the point where the fighter has normal plate and a +2 natural armour item (and 1K left over), which means the fighter has 4 more AC.

And assuming that, one could say the fighter can start with even more armour and weaponry as an advantage, however, typically, these sorts of matches don't allow additional self crafting, as that mythral plate assumes almost a lifetime of downtime. 9 GP a week, so a thousand weeks IIRC.
Alright, so that was the assumption. Thanks. Yes, I agree it is not the optimal route to go by, but a possible one. As a Barbarian I would merely settle to a lower armour class, since it hardly matters anyway the attack bonuses both classes will have.

I wouldn't allow crafting either, but it is possible. The problem with the challenge here is that we don't know the specifics. Otherwise it would be entertaining to see, once more, how this all works out. And yes, I have seen the comparison made before.

Kalirren
2009-12-08, 12:37 PM
Actually, it's rather hard to get high AC before level 3 or so. Remember that you can't afford Plate until that point, so it comes down to Dex+light/meduim armor, which the barbarian can easily match.

Well let's see how feasible high AC is at level 1.

Let's assume level 1 close heavy infantry combat. This may not be the dominant strategy, but we'll at least have -some- baseline.

Say we're going with 30 point buy. Stats of 16-16-14-8-8-8 will put you at AC 21 for scale mail + tower shield. (10+4 armor +3 Dex +4 shield). AC 22 if you're small, but that's debatably a good or bad trade. If your strategy is high AC, you're probably planning on weathering the rage anyway, so add +4 for total defense. We're up to AC 25/26. You could even take Dodge (*gasp!*) for +1, since this is a contextless 1v1 fight, so we're up to AC 26/27.

A raging barbarian will have +6 str bonus at best, if he took an 18? that's +7 to hit. +8 if he took weapon focus. +9 for a racial str. bonus of +2, or +10 for a full orcish barbarian in rage with weapon focus. Rage lasts at least 5 rounds since no barbarian has a negative Con modifier. Let's assume it lasts 7 rounds.

Let's square off our gnomish fighter against our raging orcish barbarian.

Assume that the fighter goes into full defense to weather the rage, and then once the rage is over commences attacking at -4. This is probably a suboptimal strategy, but we'll see.

The raging orc deals 2d6+12 damage, hits on a 17 and crits on a 19-20. The fighter has 12 hp. Any hit in rage will kill. So over the 7 rounds of rage, the barbarian is expected to get about 1.2 hits in from whaling on the fighter in full defense. That's one dead fighter.

Does it change much if we allow the fighter to attack at -4?

The barb now hits on a 15, so the fighter's probability of survival per round looks like 7/10^n, where n is the nth round. The fighter deals 1d6+2 damage, and needs three hits before the barbarian gets one. The barbarian's AC is 15 (10 + 4 + 3 -2 raging) Not bloody likely.

So you were right, high AC alone is not a tenable strategy against an orcish barbarian with 18 strength who took weapon focus at 1st level. You're down to playing the game of initiative rocket tag with two-handed weapons now.

Against a human barbarian with 16 strength and something that's not weapon focus, like most builds involve, though, it probably -is- viable, because the barbarian has lost a lot of damage. That build only has +6 to hit in rage, which really makes all the difference. The barb only hits on a 20, and deals 2d6+7 damage (so a rage-hit is still a win) which means it's a 31% chance that the fighter survives all 7 rounds of rage.

Then the fighter has to deal damage equal to the barb's hp. The barb has 14 hp, the fighter deals 1d6+2 damage. The fighter's attack bonus is +4 if he took weapon focus. Let's assume he did. The Barb's AC is 16 now, which means the fighter hits on a 12.

The barb's attack bonus drops to +3, and damage drops to 2d6+4. If the fighter drops full defense and goes to AC 23, the barb still hits on a 20. I'd estimate that odds favor the fighter by about 4 to 1?

So all in all, I'd estimate the odds that the fighter wins this encounter by adopting the strategy I outlined at about 4/5*70% = 55%. That's only slightly better than even odds. Probably better just to take Improved Initiative on an orcish fighter and play rocket tag.

Edit: If it wasn't clear, that +4 orcish racial modifier to Strength makes a -huge- difference. Its presence or absence is probably more important than the chosen strategy itself. Unclear if this remains the case as you go into the level 3-4 range. Obviously the High-AC build changes from high Dex to Plate Mail + Combat Expertise, and I think in this micro-range, AC increases much, much faster than attack bonus does. With feats like Sidestep Charge thrown in, I'd be surprised if the Barbarian could win.

Another_Poet
2009-12-08, 02:05 PM
I suggest some people agree on some rules and test a fighter v. barb in a tourney at levels 1, 5, 10, and 20.

However, with my hands already full of Tarrasque poo I can't offer to run either side in said challenge. It's more of a suggestion for others - solve it definitively and call it a day.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 02:08 PM
As someone, seeing that it was very true I am inclined to say Eldariel, said, it would probably come down to optimization skill. If that happened, I could probably point out the winners by just reading the posts here.

Edit: This is not to say I wouldn't be amused by the duels though.

icefractal
2009-12-08, 02:11 PM
In vs. neither gets AoO, as you lose initiative and get charged where you are now close enough that it doesn't matter. Make up your mind - if they're starting within charge range, then there's no need for a ranged weapon, or even a shield (given that the Barbarian will be using a two-handed weapon). And if the Barbarian wins initiative, he will be getting that AoO, or the Fighter will be giving up a round to get next to him, with the same results - one free attack.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 02:17 PM
Make up your mind - if they're starting within charge range, then there's no need for a ranged weapon, or even a shield (given that the Barbarian will be using a two-handed weapon). And if the Barbarian wins initiative, he will be getting that AoO, or the Fighter will be giving up a round to get next to him, with the same results - one free attack.
No need to win the initiative, Combat reflexes allow you do make AoOs even if you are flat-footed.

Aldizog
2009-12-08, 03:00 PM
Well let's see how feasible high AC is at level 1.
Good analysis. A few comments:
The fighter's higher starting gold means he can have better armor to start. Chain shirt, tower shield, and longsword are together 145 gp. The chain shirt allows you to gain the benefit of the halfling's +2 Dex for an additional +1 AC, instead of the gnome's +1 hp. This means the full orc only hits on an 18 (so 25% fewer hits than vs. the gnome). Advantage is still to the orc, but not as pronounced, and it looks like a 32% chance of surviving 7 rounds of rage (doing nothing but turtling). But he's a halfling just through basic training who is fighting a beast that is stronger than a hill giant. Gah.

Also, I think your full orc's point buy would need to be revised. If he's putting an 18 into Str, he can't have both a 16 Dex and a 14 Con (so either the fighter hits him easier, or the rage doesn't last as long). I do think your example makes it clear that not only is the orc's +4 Str huge, but also that a high point buy gives more advantage to the barbarian (because Str bonus to hit is not capped, while Dex bonus to AC is).

And for the human barbarian, a rage-hit is likely a win, but not certain. Your fighter has 13 hp (if gnome) or 12 hp (if halfling), and the barb does 2d6+7. The fighter has a 17% chance of doing 11 or less, and a 28% chance of doing 12 or less. For the halfling, taking Toughness instead of Dodge would be worth it, as he'd still only be hit on a 20, and at 15 hp he'd on average need two hits to drop.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 03:42 PM
Make up your mind - if they're starting within charge range, then there's no need for a ranged weapon, or even a shield (given that the Barbarian will be using a two-handed weapon). And if the Barbarian wins initiative, he will be getting that AoO, or the Fighter will be giving up a round to get next to him, with the same results - one free attack.

Try it an arena against me. It won't actually work in that manner, because you assume neither combatant is cabable of intelligently using more than charge, move or attack.

At any rate, a ranged weapon is relevant if either side decides to eschew heavy armour in favour of a mount of some description, and relies on kiting the other guy to death, so if it's blind matches, you'll find that if you have no ranged weapon at all, you stand the chance of losing at the luck of the draw.

tyckspoon
2009-12-08, 03:43 PM
(because Str bonus to hit is not capped, while Dex bonus to AC is).


Speaking of which, the Tower Shield has a Dex cap as well; if you're going to use one, you only get +2 Dex to AC. If you're a Dex 18 Halfling, you'd be better off using a Heavy Shield- AC would be the same, but Initiative and attack bonus would be better without the Tower Shield dragging you down.

Edit: dur, Initiative is not limited by armor Dex. Still, you'd lose the Tower Shield's -2 to your attacks, which makes it far more likely that you'll manage to bring down the Barbarian before he smashes your head off your neck.

Another_Poet
2009-12-08, 03:47 PM
As someone, seeing that it was very true I am inclined to say Eldariel, said, it would probably come down to optimization skill. If that happened, I could probably point out the winners by just reading the posts here.

Edit: This is not to say I wouldn't be amused by the duels though.

Mmm, if the books are restricted and there's a brainstorming session on both the Ftr andf Barb builds by their respective fans, I have faith in the forumites to max-optimise anything.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 03:52 PM
Speaking of which, the Tower Shield has a Dex cap as well; if you're going to use one, you only get +2 Dex to AC. If you're a Dex 18 Halfling, you'd be better off using a Heavy Shield- AC would be the same, but Initiative and attack bonus would be better without the Tower Shield dragging you down.

Edit: dur, Initiative is not limited by armor Dex. Still, you'd lose the Tower Shield's -2 to your attacks, which makes it far more likely that you'll manage to bring down the Barbarian before he smashes your head off your neck.

If you use a tower shield, the trick is to get him to waste his rage duration sundering it, then counter attack using a weapon with both hands. If he doesn't rage, you still have a net bonus against him while wielding a tower shield.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 04:05 PM
A build.

Erm, did you actually check the PB for that barbarian? It's got a point buy of 36 to the proposed 30 of the fighter, and even gave the fighter some stats he doesn't need. Not only that, but the feat improved trip was stated to be essential by the majority of the people advocating an easy barbarian win, which this build can never really attain. He'd need a headband of int +6, and a level up increase to intelligence.

Either the barb has an AC of 13, and a con of 12 for 6 round rage, or he has to drop that strength score, even assuming you give up on improved trip.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 04:45 PM
Mmm, if the books are restricted and there's a brainstorming session on both the Ftr andf Barb builds by their respective fans, I have faith in the forumites to max-optimise anything.
When it eventually comes down to the player. Nevertheless, whoever support the Fighter will receive more help from the Fighter supporters and vice versa. This alone helps me make my mind regarding the results of the possible duel series.

tyckspoon
2009-12-08, 05:07 PM
If I were going Orc, I'd skip Improved Trip. It is a sacrifice, but you have to play to your strengths, and for an Orc that's..well, Strength (and Kalirren's example AC build doesn't qualify for Imp. Trip either, so :smalltongue:.) The Orc Barbarian would use grappling as his control tactic instead of tripping, or, if designed especially to fight humanoid opponents, might opt for Improved Sunder. (Incidentally, the Small Dex-monkey AC build is extremely vulnerable to grappling even if his opponent doesn't have Improved Grapple; his lower Strength and fighting defensively really harms his chances of making the AoO to interrupt a grapple attempt, and Total Defense prevents him from taking the attack at all. And then once he's grappled his size penalty and the Barbarian's greater strength puts him at something like a ten-point disadvange.)

For 30 point buy with an Orc Barbarian, I would personally go Str 18 Dex 15 Con 14, with a plan to eventually pick up Imp. Grapple (Stat array is perhaps not 100% ideal for a lvl 1 fight, but if projected forward to level 5+ it makes sure there's enough Dex to still qualify for Imp. Grapple after being Enlarged.) Wear a chain shirt, take Imp. Unarmed Strike, wield a reach weapon (again, planning with an eye to future of the same build- for a strict level 1 one-off, Imp. Initiative and either a greatsword or the traditional greataxe.)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 06:24 PM
The problem is: At low levels, the HP is a big difference, as well as the accuracy and damage.

Barbarians can use reach weapons as well as a fighter, and the 1 bonus feat doesn't make up for +2 hit/+3 Damage/+4HP/+2 Skill Points/superior class skills.

With more feats, things start to tip towards fighter, a bit, but accuracy is key with melee.

It does come down to tactics as well, but the barbarian doesn't NEED to charge.

If he does, 2d6+12 (Max str orc raging) deals 19 damage (average) on a hit. A fighter with a +2 con modifier will typically have 19 HP at level 2. This means that a Barbarian, at low levels, has 1 shot potential on a typical fighter. The barbarian, at level 2 (same con mod) will have 24 HP, 28 in a rage. Somewhat harder to one shot, even with a similar tactic. Further, he'll be more accurate.

sadi
2009-12-08, 06:44 PM
At 1st level, the -2 to ac from raging pretty much equals out to the +2 to hit. The barb has +6 hps and does +3 damage per hit. Assuming the fighter stands there and lets the barb attack him, barb wins the vast majority of the time. If the fighter has the ability to evade/turtle till the rage wears off, the fighter now wins.

An unbiased way to test it is to do every level using wealth per level, same elite stat array, with multiple tests for different starting conditions. I'd think that the barb is going to win the low levels, 1-3, and the very high, probably 12+, but in the middle the fighter will actually come ahead during the levels where armor class and his feats are actually relevant.

Tshern
2009-12-08, 06:49 PM
At 1st level, the -2 to ac from raging pretty much equals out to the +2 to hit. The barb has +6 hps and does +3 damage per hit. Assuming the fighter stands there and lets the barb attack him, barb wins the vast majority of the time. If the fighter has the ability to evade/turtle till the rage wears off, the fighter now wins.

An unbiased way to test it is to do every level using wealth per level, same elite stat array, with multiple tests for different starting conditions. I'd think that the barb is going to win the low levels, 1-3, and the very high, probably 12+, but in the middle the fighter will actually come ahead during the levels where armor class and his feats are actually relevant.
But evading hardly is an option, as some user elaborated before.

And that is still not unbiased. It comes down to building and strategy skill of the players. One of the best ways definitely, but not unbiased.

Aldizog
2009-12-08, 07:13 PM
The problem is: At low levels, the HP is a big difference, as well as the accuracy and damage.

Also, at level 1, the fighter can't afford to take advantage of his heavy armor proficiency. Heavy armor is better with lower point buys; under standard array, most barbarians and fighters won't have 16 Dex at low levels (and might not even have 14), so fullplate really is about 2-3 points better than a breastplate. Combine this with the rage AC penalty, and the fighter is going to have an AC of 4-5 points better than the barbarian even without a shield. Feats can boost the AC advantage further.

Once you have that kind of advantage in AC, there are two things you can do with it. One is to get the barbarian to hit only on a 20, while you hit on maybe a 15+. Trade several lesser hits for every one massive hit, and try to outlast the rage. You can do this at level 3 with no magic if you and your opponent are standard array humans with Weapon Focus and a Masterwork weapon (29 AC vs. +9 to hit). If you are taking a -7 to hit (tower shield, combat expertise, fighting defensively), you can still have a net +0 to hit and will hit a raging barbarian on maybe a 15+ (+5 from breastplate, +2 Dex, -2 rage).

The other is to use a two-handed weapon, Power Attack for the difference and be better than the barbarian at his own game. If your AC is 6 points better due to heavy armor, feats, and the Rage penalty, but the barbarian's attack roll is 2 points better due to Strength, you can Power Attack for 4 so that you are both hitting just as often, but you're doing 5 more damage per hit (you have +8 from Power Attack, he has +3 from Rage).

At high levels, with mithral breastplates and animated shields, the fighter's AC advantage diminishes, but does not disappear.

sadi
2009-12-08, 07:13 PM
But evading hardly is an option, as some user elaborated before.

And that is still not unbiased. It comes down to building and strategy skill of the players. One of the best ways definitely, but not unbiased.

Meant it more in the way of unbiased than arbitrarily picking one level. And evading can be an option given terrain and gear, but that directly relates to the individuals skill at strategy.

Stormthorn
2009-12-08, 07:26 PM
Until the Barbarian gets that thing that lets him not be fatigued afterwords the fighter can win by just running around till the barbarian is fatigued. Unless Barb a has level in Horizon Walker and cant be fatigued via that.

Glimbur
2009-12-08, 07:41 PM
Until the Barbarian gets that thing that lets him not be fatigued afterwords the fighter can win by just running around till the barbarian is fatigued. Unless Barb a has level in Horizon Walker and cant be fatigued via that.

They have been arguing about that. The barbarian is generally faster than the fighter due to his class-based movement speed boost, which makes this strategy difficult to implement.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 07:42 PM
Also, at level 1, the fighter can't afford to take advantage of his heavy armor proficiency. Heavy armor is better with lower point buys; under standard array, most barbarians and fighters won't have 16 Dex at low levels (and might not even have 14), so fullplate really is about 2-3 points better than a breastplate. Combine this with the rage AC penalty, and the fighter is going to have an AC of 4-5 points better than the barbarian even without a shield. Feats can boost the AC advantage further.
Trip, Grapple, and several other maneuvers throw it right back in the barbarian's corner, however, by removing armor from the equation.

Once you have that kind of advantage in AC, there are two things you can do with it. One is to get the barbarian to hit only on a 20, while you hit on maybe a 15+. Trade several lesser hits for every one massive hit, and try to outlast the rage. You can do this at level 3 with no magic if you and your opponent are standard array humans with Weapon Focus and a Masterwork weapon (29 AC vs. +9 to hit). If you are taking a -7 to hit (tower shield, combat expertise, fighting defensively), you can still have a net +0 to hit and will hit a raging barbarian on maybe a 15+ (+5 from breastplate, +2 Dex, -2 rage).
And how about if the Barbarian does an improved trip or grapple? Barbarians will often take feats that take advantage of their high strength. Both do. This means that the barbarian with a +9 to hit, now hits the fighter on a 5+. Opposed rolls work on a bell curve. That +6 advantage (+4 feat, +2 str) equates to about an 80% success rate. Even a +2 advantage equates to a 60% success.


The other is to use a two-handed weapon, Power Attack for the difference and be better than the barbarian at his own game. If your AC is 6 points better due to heavy armor, feats, and the Rage penalty, but the barbarian's attack roll is 2 points better due to Strength, you can Power Attack for 4 so that you are both hitting just as often, but you're doing 5 more damage per hit (you have +8 from Power Attack, he has +3 from Rage). Power attack for 4?
At level 3?


At high levels, with mithral breastplates and animated shields, the fighter's AC advantage diminishes, but does not disappear.
AC advantage is meaningless at higher levels. Once a Barbarian hits 36 Str (possible at level 11, while raging, in core. 18 base +4 racial + 6 enhancement + 2 levels +6 rage), You're swinging a +24 to hit, not counting your weapon's enhancement bonus. Say, +1, and you've got a +25 or so.

A fighter's not going to be able to effectively stop that from hitting in core. Even if he manages to use nat armor and armor bonuses to get close, there's the touch attack, which, at this point, will hit on a 2+, and the str advantage, which will ensure the barb wins those opposed rolls.

The tier system was not designed by idiots.
It was not designed by people that did not give a lot of well balanced thought.

Having AC does not win encounters. That fighter in the Full plate/Tower shield? Ok, what's to stop the barbarian from using his movement (which is DOUBLE) to stay at range and throw things? What's to stop him from outmaneuvering.

This is why +2 to hit doesn't match -2 to AC.
Because hitting things directly contributes to ending an encounter.
Having a static defense does not.

Stormthorn
2009-12-08, 07:55 PM
I think the real problem here is that its based around the idea of winning. One does not win at DnD.
At least, not when im the DM. Not if i see you takeing Improved Trip.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 08:46 PM
Trip, Grapple, and several other maneuvers throw it right back in the barbarian's corner, however, by removing armor from the equation.

And how about if the Barbarian does an improved trip or grapple? Barbarians will often take feats that take advantage of their high strength. Both do. This means that the barbarian with a +9 to hit, now hits the fighter on a 5+. Opposed rolls work on a bell curve. That +6 advantage (+4 feat, +2 str) equates to about an 80% success rate. Even a +2 advantage equates to a 60% success.
Power attack for 4?
At level 3?


And yet fighters are the ones that can manage taking all those, hence why I've pointed out the barbarians in theory, seem to not only have all of those as necessities, can't afford to take them all, and can't manage taking them without failing to get the pre-reqs.


AC advantage is meaningless at higher levels. Once a Barbarian hits 36 Str (possible at level 11, while raging, in core. 18 base +4 racial + 6 enhancement + 2 levels +6 rage), You're swinging a +24 to hit, not counting your weapon's enhancement bonus. Say, +1, and you've got a +25 or so.

I find those numbers very disagreeable when you state that not only does the barbarian have those numbers, but that he also has the requisite 13 intelligence and dexterity as an orc with an intelligence penalty. What, has he got an 8 constitution?


A fighter's not going to be able to effectively stop that from hitting in core. Even if he manages to use nat armor and armor bonuses to get close, there's the touch attack, which, at this point, will hit on a 2+, and the str advantage, which will ensure the barb wins those opposed rolls.

10 base, 1 dex, 10 armour, 6 shield, 1 natural armour, ring of protection 1, combat expertise 5, partial defense 3. That's a 37, but he hasn't really scratched the level of wealth of 38K that you've used so far. Only 12K so far, so less than a third. A +4 strength item and I suppose a +1 defending weapon. Your first attack will hit an "impressive" 35% of the time, but the iteratives? You can forget about those. And power attacking? Go ahead and try.


Having AC does not win encounters. That fighter in the Full plate/Tower shield? Ok, what's to stop the barbarian from using his movement (which is DOUBLE) to stay at range and throw things? What's to stop him from outmaneuvering.

Full defense with tower shield until rage runs out mostly, at those very low levels. Note that those numbers you cited? They drop rather catastrophically if you switch to range, both in terms of damage and in terms of accuracy.


This is why +2 to hit doesn't match -2 to AC.
Because hitting things directly contributes to ending an encounter.
Having a static defense does not.

Common knowledge agrees with this, but the less common caveat is that you can optimize a build focused towards AC that can beat encounters, but that those builds require dedicated focus towards that aspect.

quiet1mi
2009-12-08, 08:55 PM
Fighters have Flexibility that the Barbarian Lacks...

A fighter 6 could choose the following:
1:Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Improved Overrun
2:Dungeon Crasher
3:Improved Sunder
4:Cleave
6:Shock Trooper, Dungeon Crasher

A Barbarian 6 could choose the following:
1:Power Attack, Extra Rage
3:Improved Bullrush
6:Shock Trooper

The Above Fighter is given plenty of options in combat... Improved Sunder on Items or weapons, Bullrush an opponent off of a weaker character (Lets say the getting a ghast off the main caster), Knock down an opponent so allies can hit them with an effective +4 to hit (-4 ac against melee when prone) not to mention the AOO provoked when the said opponent gets up, Dungeon Crasher allows the fighter to circumnavigate people's AC by just running them into a wall, Shock trooper brings the damage while cleave allows you to share the fun with another opponent...

The Barbarian above seems to be only good at three things Dealing Damage, Taking damage, and pushing people around... A barbarian could trade his trap sense and fast movement for Trip attack, and Track thus surpassing the fighter's Overrrun as they can attack in addition to knocking someone flat...

This leaves Rage every encounter vs Dungeoncrasher & cleave... Rage will give the Barbarian +2 to hit and +3 damage with a two handed weapon (a total of +7 damage with power attack). However allows the barbarian to be hit a total of 10% more of the time or take +4 damage if the opponent is using power attack...

Finally when comparing the above builds, the fighter ends up with the larger modifier when you add the +4 (rage effectively add +2 while a feat adds +4)... Bull rush is topped by the Barbarian as he has both rage and Improved Bull Rush... The Fighter Tops off with overrun as he only needs to win in an strength check while the barbarian with improved trip, needs to succeed in a touch attack and the strength check... while the barbarian usually has the higher to hit modifier, more checks means more opportunities for failure...

In my opinion, Wizard is to Sorcerer as Fighter is to Barbarian... One trades versatility for raw power...

HCL
2009-12-08, 09:21 PM
Shock trooper is not core, and if you are going outside of core there are way better options available for PVP. A non-core barbarian (at level 6 I would go Darfellan, Warforged, or Fireblood Dwarf with tail) could be making 3-7 iteratives pouncing at that level. Make them all touch attacks (trips) until you knock him down, then just keep going with the full attacks.

Alternatively you can make an archer barbarian and run circles around the dumbass wearing a heavy load.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 09:23 PM
Non core kind of starts working in both directions actually. It now no longer is an issue of who is best at optimizing, but also who is using what.

Another_Poet
2009-12-08, 09:36 PM
it would probably come down to optimization skill. If that happened, I could probably point out the winners by just reading the posts here.


Right, and after several people pointed this out, the builds would be adjusted to cover the weaknesses that people noticed. Once both sides were perfectly optimized the match would begin.

If you're saying that after the builds were looked at by multiple optimisers, none of them could think of any way to get the weaker one to be strong enough to even have a chance of winning - then we would have a definite answer.

Far more definite than the current rigamarole of "No, THIS would happen!" :)

Aldizog
2009-12-08, 09:38 PM
And how about if the Barbarian does an improved trip or grapple? Barbarians will often take feats that take advantage of their high strength. Both do. This means that the barbarian with a +9 to hit, now hits the fighter on a 5+. Opposed rolls work on a bell curve. That +6 advantage (+4 feat, +2 str) equates to about an 80% success rate. Even a +2 advantage equates to a 60% success.
It is the fighter, with more feats and less single-minded focus on Str, that can more often take these feats. Even with a Str of 15 compared to 18, and no Rage, a fighter with the relevant feat will have the advantage over a barbarian. Tripping is an amazingly good option for the fighter because it can kill rage rounds. Disarming as well.



Power attack for 4?
At level 3?
My mistake. Okay, at level 4 then. Or Power Attack for 3 (which STILL lets the fighter beat the barbarian at his own game, as +6 damage is better than +3 damage).



AC advantage is meaningless at higher levels.
No, it is not. It still matters for iteratives and for Power Attack in core. Only with a Shocktrooper Charge or Wraithstrike is AC truly irrelevant. The touch attacks that you speak of are a separate tactic for which the fighter is actually better suited. In a straight-up toe-to-toe damage-dealing contest, which is what I was addressing, AC remains relevant.



The tier system was not designed by idiots.
Neither was 3E. The barbarian is designed to be approximately equal to the fighter while in his rage, or just barely ahead, and worse off without it, with his other special abilities making up the difference. With standard array and in core, this is pretty much the case. With the optimizers' preference for high point buy, the edge goes to the barbarian.



Having AC does not win encounters. That fighter in the Full plate/Tower shield? Ok, what's to stop the barbarian from using his movement (which is DOUBLE) to stay at range and throw things? What's to stop him from outmaneuvering.
The rage duration is what is to stop the barbarian from doing that. Note that the subject line speaks of a "raging barbarian." Using a once-a-day ability that makes you very strong for one minute and leaves you gasping for breath at the end should not be, and is not, a "no-brainer" in a game with opponents with any tactical sense. Depending on armor and terrain, there may well be options for a fighter to evade. The fighter's feats allow him to do kiting as well.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 10:26 PM
It is the fighter, with more feats and less single-minded focus on Str, that can more often take these feats. Even with a Str of 15 compared to 18, and no Rage, a fighter with the relevant feat will have the advantage over a barbarian. Tripping is an amazingly good option for the fighter because it can kill rage rounds. Disarming as well. More often? Almost every barbarian I have uses one or the other? Why? Because they work, and well. The difference is that fighters can also get other feats. And who has the advantage if the 15 str fighter and the 22 str barbarian each have it? What if the barbarian's raging, for a 26? Even without the feat, he then has an advantage.

With these types of feats, a MORE focused strength is better. Why? Because the feat is a strength based feat. Heck, out of core (UA), a barbarian can get Imp Trip with an 8 int.

The difference in what it kills? With the fighter, if he gets lucky, he can kill a rage round. With the barbarian, if he gets lucky, he kills the fighter.


My mistake. Okay, at level 4 then. Or Power Attack for 3 (which STILL lets the fighter beat the barbarian at his own game, as +6 damage is better than +3 damage). Not if he's using a tower shield. Without it, his AC, in full plate is 18, 19 with a +1 dex. If you're wielding a 2 hander? The barbarian stands 50 feet away, outside of your charge range, and chucks javelins at you. A level 3 Barbarian with a +1 dex has a 25% hit chance to your... 0%. Now you can total defense, but you'll then never have a ghost of a chance of engaging the 40 speed barbarian. You can't fight defensively; that option's only available when you can attack. If you full run to reach him, your AC goes down to 18, and you can't make AoO's. Great, now he can just move away and fire again, or he can rage, and swing a +11 to hit against you. Or rage/grapple.

In actual combat between 2 foes, reach and movement are incredibly important. Weighing yourself down with 80 pounds of armor against a high mobility opponent is incredibly foolish.


No, it is not. It still matters for iteratives and for Power Attack in core. Only with a Shocktrooper Charge or Wraithstrike is AC truly irrelevant. The touch attacks that you speak of are a separate tactic for which the fighter is actually better suited. In a straight-up toe-to-toe damage-dealing contest, which is what I was addressing, AC remains relevant.Fallacy, Fallacy, Distortion of accurate information.

Without a heavy AC focus, Attack bonus outstrips AC. Always. Trying to not get hit is like standing on a beach without getting sandy. Without movement, the opponent dictates how the fight is handled. And the fighter you present has to full charge to get the barbarian's move action. I cannot overstate how crippling that is.


Neither was 3E. The barbarian is designed to be approximately equal to the fighter while in his rage, or just barely ahead, and worse off without it, with his other special abilities making up the difference. With standard array and in core, this is pretty much the case. With the optimizers' preference for high point buy, the edge goes to the barbarian. A solid barbarian can be built in standard 28 pb:
Orc. 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 8 cha.
Str goes up to 22, and in rage, 26.


The rage duration is what is to stop the barbarian from doing that. Note that the subject line speaks of a "raging barbarian." Using a once-a-day ability that makes you very strong for one minute and leaves you gasping for breath at the end should not be, and is not, a "no-brainer" in a game with opponents with any tactical sense. Depending on armor and terrain, there may well be options for a fighter to evade. The fighter's feats allow him to do kiting as well.
A fighter in full plate is not going to evade someone with double his movement. Prevent a charge? Possible. But the barbarian's movement means that generally, the fight happens on his terms.

What you suggest is like saying that a hippo can nimbly dodge a shark. Both are dangerous creatures... But don't tell me a stock car's gonna beat a dragster in the 1/4 mile. It's not happening.

Glimbur
2009-12-08, 10:32 PM
What if we also make the fighter a full orc? Does he need the mentals to qualify for feats or something? The barbarian will still be stronger due to rage, but that should lessen the gap.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 11:01 PM
What if we also make the fighter a full orc? Does he need the mentals to qualify for feats or something? The barbarian will still be stronger due to rage, but that should lessen the gap.

Combat Expertise comes to mind.

Most AC based fighters want Int 13 for that. A 2hander fighter would possibly have int lower, but there's no way a Tower shield fighter would want the int hit that would knock out Expertise and similar.

tyckspoon
2009-12-08, 11:08 PM
A solid barbarian can be built in standard 28 pb:
Orc. 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 8 cha.
Str goes up to 22, and in rage, 26.


I note that if you really really want to go for Imp. Trip on this build (as I said earlier, I think Imp. Grapple suits the Orc builds better and doesn't require pulling points away from the Str focus) you can go down to a 16 base Strength and get enough points out of that to have 14 Int, lowered to 12 by racial penalty. That just needs either one level up point or a cheap +2 headband to qualify for Combat Expertise, which is quite affordable around levels 4-6. Which is, coincidentally, exactly when I would want to take Combat Expertise- levels 1 and 3 would be Imp. Initiative and Power Attack.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 11:23 PM
I note that if you really really want to go for Imp. Trip on this build (as I said earlier, I think Imp. Grapple suits the Orc builds better and doesn't require pulling points away from the Str focus) you can go down to a 16 base Strength and get enough points out of that to have 14 Int, lowered to 12 by racial penalty. That just needs either one level up point or a cheap +2 headband to qualify for Combat Expertise, which is quite affordable around levels 4-6. Which is, coincidentally, exactly when I would want to take Combat Expertise- levels 1 and 3 would be Imp. Initiative and Power Attack.

For the build I posted, it'd be Imp Unarmed strike and Imp Grapple.

You're right. But I usually don't do tripping barbs in core. I reserve those for Out of core, and just do Wolf Totem.

Yukitsu
2009-12-08, 11:59 PM
Looks like it's gotten about to the point that people would want to see builds being made. I'm up for a match, if anyone else is.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 12:00 AM
Looks like it's gotten about to the point that people would want to see builds being made. I'm up for a match, if anyone else is.

I was just pointing out that a stat array in 28pb is friendly to the barbarian.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 12:05 AM
Not as great as has been advertised, considering the constant insistence that the barb should have improved trip as well as a variety of tactical combat abilities. I'm beginning to think that my suspicion of cries of "but the barb would have that too!" are being somewhat confirmed. It is my belief that at this time, talk is a bit cheap, in either direction.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 12:09 AM
Not as great as has been advertised, considering the constant insistence that the barb should have improved trip as well as a variety of tactical combat abilities. I'm beginning to think that my suspicion of cries of "but the barb would have that too!" are being somewhat confirmed. It is my belief that at this time, talk is a bit cheap, in either direction.

My advertisement was Imp Grapple OR Imp Trip. The barbarian's not feat blessed enough for both at low levels.

Luckily, since they function in a pretty similar fashion, it's not needed.

18/14/14/8/8/8 is my Imp Unarmed/Imp Grapple with a Glaive concept.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 12:12 AM
I'm not refering to you in particular, but as a whole, as I've heard that improved trip is essential, most people seem to assume combat reflexes will be there when rocket tag is a viable concern, and so forth.

There are also a few differences between grapple and trip that are important. There is a fairly dramatic reduction in damage done in a grapple compared to tripping someone, as you're down to either punches or light weapons. It's possible at the levels that an orc with improved grapple comes into play, that the fighter could tough out the rage duration.

Edit: I'm not sure what in core would grant you additional iteratives in that manner.

Kalirren
2009-12-09, 12:18 AM
Good catch on the point buy. I don't know how I missed that.

Really, if we're talking about a level n 1v1 and asking if a Fighter can outfight a raging Barbarian in Core, I translate the question as,

"Given arena parameters, including terrain, give me a single-class SRD-only level-n build of each class, Fighter and Barbarian. Pit them against each other: who would win, how often, and what would the winning strategy be?"

I think the other 600-pound gorilla (the first one being the importance of the +4 racial bonus) of the level 1 analysis is that I've assumed heavy infantry combat in a constrained space. I think everyone would agree that this is where the Barbarian shines best; Rage is most meaningful when you can reliably smack someone for a full attack sequence, after all.

When you start to have real nasty problems is when you break that assumption. If the given terrain were an infinite plain, the dominant strategy would be mounted archery, and the Fighter would win basically every time, at all levels, because the extra feats are always so much more meaningful.

Around levels 6-8, if the given terrain were a dense forest, the chance to charge someone is virtually nil, and ranged combat is severely hampered as well. A dwarven fighter in heavy armor who adopted the strategy of withdrawing/Spring-Attacking his full double-move speed and ending his turn outside the barbarian's single-move range behind tree cover while the barbarian is raging would probably win because the raging barbarian would have to sink 3 valuable feats into the Spring Attack tree in order to deal any melee damage while raging at all. Only a human barbarian would be able to take both Spring attack and Power attack by level 6, so we can pretty much assume that all other barbarians lose outright by not having spring attack or power attack. The fighter would have three feats to spare to do something else with - I don't know, specialize in throwing axes or something.

I haven't played enough level 10+ to accurately judge that. All I know is that the Mongol archer strategy gets even better, especially since you can snap your fingers and swap your bow for a tower shield (glove of storing) as a free action.

So my money is definitely with the Fighter class in general.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 12:25 AM
I'm not refering to you in particular, but as a whole, as I've heard that improved trip is essential, most people seem to assume combat reflexes will be there when rocket tag is a viable concern, and so forth.

There are also a few differences between grapple and trip that are important. There is a fairly dramatic reduction in damage done in a grapple compared to tripping someone, as you're down to either punches or light weapons. It's possible at the levels that an orc with improved grapple comes into play, that the fighter could tough out the rage duration.

Edit: I'm not sure what in core would grant you additional iteratives in that manner.

Yes, there are. However, in opposed checks, AC doesn't matter. The barbarian with grapple can hit (with the 28 str concept above) for 1d3+8 in grapple, reliably.

The tripper, still reliable, as the AoO for getting up limits mobility. Yes, it's possible. However, a fighter without improved grapple will be at a disadvantage against even a fatigued orc with it in a grapple. Against an orc not using rage.

And the 20 move fighter with tower shields, expertise, and all that earlier? Not as likely that he'll be focusing on it.

The sheer movement difference at low levels will kill. People underestimate the value of 40 movement vs 20. But I assure you, speed does kill.

For example: If the fighter double moves for 40? The orc can move for 40 and ready an action. Or attack. Or drink a potion.

If the orc double moves 80 (or withdraws), the only way the fighter can keep up is to full run. In other words, the fight will happen at the range and terms the barbarian wants, due to the range.

That's the one truth that hasn't been disputed. Because it can't be. If the barbarian wants range? It's range.
If he wants reach melee? It's reach melee.

The fighter doesn't get that choice. That gives the barbarian the initiative. And that's big.


I think the other 600-pound gorilla (the first one being the importance of the +4 racial bonus) of the level 1 analysis is that I've assumed heavy infantry combat in a constrained space. I think everyone would agree that this is where the Barbarian shines best; Rage is most meaningful when you can reliably smack someone for a full attack sequence, after all.Fallacy. Barbarian movement is best used with space to maneuver. At level 1, there are no iterative attacks. Thus, full attacks are MEANINGLESS (unless you're walking the path of failure that is TWF as a level 1 barbarian).


When you start to have real nasty problems is when you break that assumption. If the given terrain were an infinite plain, the dominant strategy would be mounted archery, and the Fighter would win basically every time, at all levels, because the extra feats are always so much more meaningful.I've taken down mounted combatants before. The feats necessitate a charge, and those are easy to break via readied action. If archery? Well, let's just say COMPLETELY featureless plains are rare. Give the barbarian a horse as well, and it becomes a bit more balanced.

Not saying it's open and shut for the barb, but it's NOT open and shut for the fighter here.


Around levels 6-8, if the given terrain were a dense forest, the chance to charge someone is virtually nil, and ranged combat is severely hampered as well. A dwarven fighter in heavy armor who adopted the strategy of withdrawing/Spring-Attacking his full double-move speed and ending his turn outside the barbarian's single-move range behind tree cover while the barbarian is raging would probably win because the raging barbarian would have to sink 3 valuable feats into the Spring Attack tree in order to deal any melee damage while raging at all. Only a human barbarian would be able to take both Spring attack and Power attack by level 6, so we can pretty much assume that all other barbarians lose outright by not having spring attack or power attack. The fighter would have three feats to spare to do something else with - I don't know, specialize in throwing axes or something.So let's see. A dwarf (20 move) withdrawing and spring attacking (against rules. Spring attack lets you move before and after an attack, provided the total moved distance is not greater than your speed.), can both attack and get 50 feet away in a double move... !?

The numbers just don't add up.

If you move 5 feet, attack with spring attack, and then move the remainder of your move, you've gotten 15 feet away. At that range, it's difficult to block a charge, much less a 40 foot move and an attack. In other words, spring attack is designed for characters with HIGH movement. Dwarf fighters have LOW movement. What part of this struck you as a good concept?


I haven't played enough level 10+ to accurately judge that. All I know is that the Mongol archer strategy gets even better, especially since you can snap your fingers and swap your bow for a tower shield (glove of storing) as a free action.Which still requires it be readied as a move action.


So my money is definitely with the Fighter class in general.
I'd be glad to take your money.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 12:44 AM
Yes, there are. However, in opposed checks, AC doesn't matter. The barbarian with grapple can hit (with the 28 str concept above) for 1d3+8 in grapple, reliably.

28? I think you mean 26, which is the maximum possible without going over level 4. Yeah sure, that's a higher value. But again, I think at this time, I'd rather see if your theory can hold up in a ring.


The sheer movement difference at low levels will kill. People underestimate the value of 40 movement vs 20. But I assure you, speed does kill.

For example: If the fighter double moves for 40? The orc can move for 40 and ready an action. Or attack. Or drink a potion.

If the orc double moves 80 (or withdraws), the only way the fighter can keep up is to full run. In other words, the fight will happen at the range and terms the barbarian wants, due to the range.

As proposed, he also doesn't present any threat beyond melee range. He pretty much has to close to melee to actually get a kill. Mobility matters in that context when both range and melee are viable threats. In this case? Range means I sit huddled behind a shield collecting your thrown spears for ammo, because you can't sunder at a range.


That's the one truth that hasn't been disputed. Because it can't be. If the barbarian wants range? It's range.
If he wants reach melee? It's reach melee.

The fighter doesn't get that choice. That gives the barbarian the initiative. And that's big.

It's only a big difference when one isn't a stalemate option/gimp fight. Out of core, with ranged sunder, and with all that other jazz, yes the barbarian can power through the fighters defenses from a range. But not in core. In core, you can dance around at range for a few hours, but ultimately, both sides know you're going to have to melee him to actually get anything done.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 12:52 AM
28? I think you mean 26, which is the maximum possible without going over level 4. Yeah sure, that's a higher value. But again, I think at this time, I'd rather see if your theory can hold up in a ring.Typo. If you'll note, 1d3+8 includes the strength mod for a 26 str.



As proposed, he also doesn't present any threat beyond melee range. He pretty much has to close to melee to actually get a kill. Mobility matters in that context when both range and melee are viable threats. In this case? Range means I sit huddled behind a shield collecting your thrown spears for ammo, because you can't sunder at a range.And if the extent of the fighter's threat is "huddle crying behind a shield until the big bad barbarian chooses to get close enough to hit" ???

I'm sorry, this fails to convince me that the fighter is competent at anything but cowering. Though, if it makes you feel better:

Ready action: Throw spear when fighter is not benefiting from cover.

Tower shield cover lasts for 1 round. This means, by D&D timing rules, you lose the benefit on the initiative count before the fighter's turn. For a brief instant, the fighter does not have total cover. Enough for one javelin, RAW.

To show you that the rules don't favor cowering.


It's only a big difference when one isn't a stalemate option/gimp fight. Out of core, with ranged sunder, and with all that other jazz, yes the barbarian can power through the fighters defenses from a range. But not in core. In core, you can dance around at range for a few hours, but ultimately, both sides know you're going to have to melee him to actually get anything done.
See above for proof of your incorrectness.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 12:55 AM
Meh. Sure you can. You're still only hitting on 20s, and have to deal with possible return fire, if you don't also have large boosts to AC. Second of all, ready cover against an attack.

Again, I'd be happy to do a test run to see if that theory holds.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 12:58 AM
More often? Almost every barbarian I have uses one or the other? Why? Because they work, and well. The difference is that fighters can also get other feats. And who has the advantage if the 15 str fighter and the 22 str barbarian each have it? What if the barbarian's raging, for a 26? Even without the feat, he then has an advantage.
Why are you positing that large a gap in Str? Barbarians are inherently orcs and fighters are inherently humans? I thought we were discussing the difference in class abilities, not races. Frankly I think +4 Str is too much for an LA +0 race, but that's not the issue at hand.


Not if he's using a tower shield. Without it, his AC, in full plate is 18, 19 with a +1 dex. If you're wielding a 2 hander? The barbarian stands 50 feet away, outside of your charge range, and chucks javelins at you. A level 3 Barbarian with a +1 dex has a 25% hit chance to your... 0%. Now you can total defense, but you'll then never have a ghost of a chance of engaging the 40 speed barbarian. You can't fight defensively; that option's only available when you can attack. If you full run to reach him, your AC goes down to 18, and you can't make AoO's. Great, now he can just move away and fire again, or he can rage, and swing a +11 to hit against you. Or rage/grapple.
Again, you miss the point. The issue is whether a fighter can match a raging barbarian. If a raging barbarian is standing back throwing javelins, move behind cover and wait for the rage to end.


Without a heavy AC focus, Attack bonus outstrips AC. Always.
Explain how that is the case for iteratives and Power Attack in a non-Wraithstrike non-Shocktrooper case, because I'm just not seeing it. And explain at what point AC stops mattering (what difference between attack bonus and AC). According to my math, AC continues to matter for expected damage per round well after the point where the primary has a nominal 95% chance to hit.



A solid barbarian can be built in standard 28 pb:
Orc. 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 8 wis, 8 cha.
Str goes up to 22, and in rage, 26.

That's still high pb. 25 is standard. But setting that aside, how do you think an orc fighter with the same point buy would do against your barbarian? Would the fighter's AC bonus of 4 (at 14 Dex, +2 AC for fullplate vs. breastplate, and -2 AC for rage), plus 2 bonus feats at level 3, outweigh the +2 to hit and +3 damage from rage?



A fighter in full plate is not going to evade someone with double his movement. Prevent a charge? Possible. But the barbarian's movement means that generally, the fight happens on his terms.
No, the rage means that the fight must be primarily decided within the next 5-7 rounds. A raging barbarian doesn't have a lot of options besides "hit things as fast as possible before I get tired." Evading normally isn't an option for the fullplate fighter; that's the option for other fighter builds. But a barbarian in medium armor doesn't have double the fighter's movement. Even a fullplate fighter vs. a scale-mail barbarian can withdraw to take a double move to someplace where the barbarian can't charge; in actual games (rather than arenas) obstacles are common.

Look, I'm not arguing that the fighter is all-around better than the barbarian. But strictly speaking, is it possible for a fighter to out-fight a raging barbarian? Sure, at the levels at which the game is most often played (say, 3-8). At level 3, the +3 feats (2 bonus fighter feats and Heavy Armor Proficiency) are, in combat, probably worth Rage (+4 Str, -2 AC, kinda-sorta +4 hp). The orc tradeoff is +4 Str all the time, at the cost of -2 Int/Wis/Cha, 1 feat, and 1 skill point per level, but no AC penalty. The orc gets a better deal. In a duel example, the orc barbarian might win because he's an orc, not because he's a barbarian. That said, a ftrX/brb1 is, in a duel, going to destroy a pure example of either class. Rage is powerful, and at low levels with standard pb heavy armor is as well. At low levels, the bonus fighter feats are useful.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 01:23 AM
Why are you positing that large a gap in Str? Barbarians are inherently orcs and fighters are inherently humans? I thought we were discussing the difference in class abilities, not races. Frankly I think +4 Str is too much for an LA +0 race, but that's not the issue at hand.Because the post I was responding to posited a 15 str fighter.

I chose an optimal race for barbarian. Just as many fighters go human to maximize feats. If you disagree with the rules on Orc's status as +0 LA/+4 Str... That's your right. Homebrew it. Doesn't change what is, and what isn't... here.


Again, you miss the point. The issue is whether a fighter can match a raging barbarian. If a raging barbarian is standing back throwing javelins, move behind cover and wait for the rage to end.I'd posit that since Rage is a free action to activate, it's not done until advantageous to do so. If you're throwing javelins, it's probably because it's not.

This is about defeating two tactical styles, not fighter and barb. Or are you saying that a fighter cowers behind a tower shield better than any other class cowers behind a tower shield because of feats?


Explain how that is the case for iteratives and Power Attack in a non-Wraithstrike non-Shocktrooper case, because I'm just not seeing it. And explain at what point AC stops mattering (what difference between attack bonus and AC). According to my math, AC continues to matter for expected damage per round well after the point where the primary has a nominal 95% chance to hit.Iteratives? How about in the case where one performs a move+attack?
Power Attack? AC can mitigate the amount that a foe power attacks. But is the -2 damage per point of AC worth the crazy investment it takes to get past 25 or so?


That's still high pb. 25 is standard. But setting that aside, how do you think an orc fighter with the same point buy would do against your barbarian? Would the fighter's AC bonus of 4 (at 14 Dex, +2 AC for fullplate vs. breastplate, and -2 AC for rage), plus 2 bonus feats at level 3, outweigh the +2 to hit and +3 damage from rage? 25 USED to be standard. 28 IS standard.


No, the rage means that the fight must be primarily decided within the next 5-7 rounds. A raging barbarian doesn't have a lot of options besides "hit things as fast as possible before I get tired." Evading normally isn't an option for the fullplate fighter; that's the option for other fighter builds. But a barbarian in medium armor doesn't have double the fighter's movement. Even a fullplate fighter vs. a scale-mail barbarian can withdraw to take a double move to someplace where the barbarian can't charge; in actual games (rather than arenas) obstacles are common.Fatigue is a rather minor penalty. It's not "rage over, I lose". It's "rage over, I fight slightly worse".

Hence, why most barbs I have use chain shirts. interesting concept, that.


Look, I'm not arguing that the fighter is all-around better than the barbarian. Good, you'd be disagreeing with a lot of established evidence, and the consensus of most every respected optimizer in the game.


But strictly speaking, is it possible for a fighter to out-fight a raging barbarian? Sure, at the levels at which the game is most often played (say, 3-8). At level 3, the +3 feats (2 bonus fighter feats and Heavy Armor Proficiency) are, in combat, probably worth Rage (+4 Str, -2 AC, kinda-sorta +4 hp). The orc tradeoff is +4 Str all the time, at the cost of -2 Int/Wis/Cha, 1 feat, and 1 skill point per level, but no AC penalty. The orc gets a better deal. In a duel example, the orc barbarian might win because he's an orc, not because he's a barbarian. That said, a ftrX/brb1 is, in a duel, going to destroy a pure example of either class. Rage is powerful, and at low levels with standard pb heavy armor is as well. At low levels, the bonus fighter feats are useful.
Is it possible? Yes. Fights are never open and shut.
Does the barbarian have an advantage? Most of the time, yes.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 01:25 AM
I didn't say any of that.

That aside, 15 strength fighter was posited with the elite array, not with point buy. Rather large benefit in the barbarian's favour, that one (considering elite array is a good few points below the posited barbarian PB).

As for why you won't ever get a specific build from me, unless an arena match comes up, is that pretty much every specific build will be countered by some obtuse build specifically designed to defeat that one build. You can see it with how much the "necessary" feats that all barbarians obviously have jumps around page to page.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 01:30 AM
I didn't say any of that.

That aside, 15 strength fighter was posited with the elite array, not with point buy. Rather large benefit in the barbarian's favour, that one (considering elite array is a good few points below the posited barbarian PB).

As for why you won't ever get a specific build from me, unless an arena match comes up, is that pretty much every specific build will be countered by some obtuse build specifically designed to defeat that one build. You can see it with how much the "necessary" feats that all barbarians obviously have jumps around page to page.

I've kept the same ones listed since I joined the convo.

Yes, Power attack/Comb. Ref is good.

It's not my style.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 01:33 AM
25 USED to be standard. 28 IS standard.

Way to (besides quoting the wrong person) entirely ignore the argument.

Here it is again: setting that aside, how do you think an orc fighter with the same point buy would do against your barbarian? Would the fighter's AC bonus of 4 (at 14 Dex, +2 AC for fullplate vs. breastplate, and -2 AC for rage), plus 2 bonus feats at level 3, outweigh the +2 to hit and +3 damage from rage?

Otherwise, all you've done is prove that orc is a powerful option, not that barbarian is.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 01:36 AM
Way to (besides quoting the wrong person) entirely ignore the argument.

Here it is again: setting that aside, how do you think an orc fighter with the same point buy would do against your barbarian? Would the fighter's AC bonus of 4 (at 14 Dex, +2 AC for fullplate vs. breastplate, and -2 AC for rage), plus 2 bonus feats at level 3, outweigh the +2 to hit and +3 damage from rage?

Otherwise, all you've done is prove that orc is a powerful option, not that barbarian is.

How would the option to have (+2 to hit, +3 to damage -2 AC), double movement, +6 hp, and +12 skill points stack up?

Vs. 2 bonus feats and +5 AC (fullplate vs Chain shirt)?

Quite favorably, actually.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 01:40 AM
You see, it's those statements of "this is a foregone conclusion" without any actual backing that irritate me. I am going to build a level 3 fighter, and you can build a level 3 barbarian, and given specific sets of actions, we can see which one wins more often.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 01:50 AM
You see, it's those statements of "this is a foregone conclusion" without any actual backing that irritate me. I am going to build a level 3 fighter, and you can build a level 3 barbarian, and given specific sets of actions, we can see which one wins more often.

Blah blah empty challenge blah.

Such things prove nothing, other than their participants have too much free time.

I've never claimed it's a foregone conclusion. Just that the barbarian has an edge. But way to strawman my position.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 01:50 AM
How would the option to have (+2 to hit, +3 to damage -2 AC), double movement, +6 hp, and +12 skill points stack up?

Vs. 2 bonus feats and +5 AC (fullplate vs Chain shirt)?

Quite favorably, actually.

I do agree with you that the barbarian's fast movement is indeed a powerful ability in the right circumstances.

Temotei
2009-12-09, 02:11 AM
How would the option to have (+2 to hit, +3 to damage -2 AC), double movement, +6 hp, and +12 skill points stack up?

Vs. 2 bonus feats and +5 AC (fullplate vs Chain shirt)?

Quite favorably, actually.

I was sure barbarians got +10 feet to their speed, which would only be double movement if their original speed was 10 ft...did I miss something, or am I forgetting something? Oh, and you forgot +2 to Will saving throws while in rage.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 02:14 AM
I was sure barbarians got +10 feet to their speed, which would only be double movement if their original speed was 10 ft...did I miss something, or am I forgetting something? Oh, and you forgot +2 to Will saving throws while in rage.

The comparison is vs a fighter in heavy armor. 20 ft move.

icefractal
2009-12-09, 04:51 AM
Try it an arena against me. It won't actually work in that manner, because you assume neither combatant is cabable of intelligently using more than charge, move or attack.

At any rate, a ranged weapon is relevant if either side decides to eschew heavy armour in favour of a mount of some description, and relies on kiting the other guy to death, so if it's blind matches, you'll find that if you have no ranged weapon at all, you stand the chance of losing at the luck of the draw.Ok, what? The Barbarian can totally have a ranged weapon - Javelins cost 1gp each, and a sling costs even less. What I was disagreeing with is that a Glaive is worse than a Greatsword.

And I would like to see how you plan to close to melee range without either:
A) Starting within charge range and winning initiative.
B) Taking an AoO.
C) Giving up your attack for the round (in which case you may as well take the AoO, because it's a free attack either way).

For that matter, I'm not sure how relevant 1st-level differences in wealth are to comparing classes, given that they will be meaningless by 2nd level and on.

icefractal
2009-12-09, 04:56 AM
Actually, at 1st level, in a wide-open space, a Human Fighter probably would win, by being able to complete the Spirited Charge chain and almost certainly kill anything they hit with a lance.

By 3rd level, this advantage is removed.

Zen Master
2009-12-09, 05:26 AM
Wouldn't it pretty much be accurate to say that 'a straight melee character can one-shot another melee character if he wins initiative'?!

I know there are ways around that, but then it's either A) Not a straight melee guy, or B) Gear that does the difference.

Or am I missing something?

Killer Angel
2009-12-09, 05:49 AM
Because the post I was responding to posited a 15 str fighter.

I chose an optimal race for barbarian. Just as many fighters go human to maximize feats.


If there's one thing fighters don't need, is an additional feat, 'specially in Core only.
If the barbarian is an orc to have the strenght bonus, I don't see why the fighter must be human. He can easily be an orc (limiting the strenght gap to Rage), or a Dwarf (compensating the d12 hp of the barbarian).

That said, I think that, in a straight fight, they're almost on par.

Grifthin
2009-12-09, 07:20 AM
Ork isn't in the PHB anyway, so at best it will be Half-ork.

Eldariel
2009-12-09, 08:18 AM
Ork isn't in the PHB anyway, so at best it will be Half-ork.

PHB? Who cares about PHB? Orc is Core and that's all that matters.

HCL
2009-12-09, 08:42 AM
Agree, I would still consider Deep Dwarf and Forest Gnome core as well.

Outside of core its easy to get multiple iteratives at level 1, you just need 1-3 natural weapons, whirling frenzy, and pounce and you are set.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 09:20 AM
This would probably have been five or more years ago - I'm guessing it was before 3.5 was released.

It wasn't even core, and your DM was misquoting it out of context. The quote comes from the 3.0 DMG, and ignores most of the barbarian class features, because the very next sentence explains that it's the reason barbarian was given most of the advantages everyone is pointing out in the first place.

The actual quote was along the lines of (quoting from memory, because I can't be bothered to dig out the books right now):


A fighter with well-chosen feats outshines a barbarian, even one in a rage. Once out of his rage, the barbarian's not even close. To compensate, the barbarian gets increased speed, more hitpoints, extra skill points, and damage reduction.

Also, given that this was 3.0, not all of the things you might do to optimise your character are valid. There were quite a few builds that were nerfed in 3.5 (despite not being overpowered) to make space for Shock Trooper.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 11:31 AM
Blah blah empty challenge blah.

Such things prove nothing, other than their participants have too much free time.

I've never claimed it's a foregone conclusion. Just that the barbarian has an edge. But way to strawman my position.

That's not a strawman. You say they have an edge but by no means have you demonstrated that. Excepting of course, when the barbarian has a 30 PB, and is compared to the elite array.

quiet1mi
2009-12-09, 02:08 PM
Can we Agree that the main difference between them is...

Offensively Speaking...
Feats, 2+skills, D10 HD vs Rage & Fast movement, 4+skills, D12 HD

Damage reduction does not matter since at that point damage is too large...
Fast movement matters less as well because magic items begin to fill in the gap...

In my opinion, the fighter can be built to be more of a team player with feats like sunder,overrun, bullrush while the barbarian (who still has access to those theoretically but not in RL as his feats are spent on other things) is more of a one man wrecking ball... The Spearpoint of any party is the barbarian...

Kalirren
2009-12-09, 04:25 PM
Re: PhoenixRivers:

Re: mounted -archery-, emphasis mine

Regarding mounted charge, I agree with you. I was talking about mounted -archery-, not mounted charge. At the levels where mounted archery really shines, why would you ever want to charge a raging barbarian anyway?

A completely featureless plain is indeed rare, but that's what I -posited- as a potential challenge parameter witin the Mystical Cosmic Arena. But I'm willing to move beyond those bounds. I'm having trouble thinking of what sort of terrain feature would advantage a barbarian, even a barbarian on horse, much more than an archer-fighter on horse. It's not like the Barbarian gets to use fast movement on his horse...

My basic point is that if the presence of horses makes it so that the only way for any character to deal damage is by using a long-range weapon, and all of the good archer builds rely on tons of feats, and strength bonus on bows is capped, then wouldn't Fighter basically win this challenge hands down?

Regarding forests and Spring Attack:

You're right that Spring Attack does't make too much of a difference. I was wrong. I thought SA limit was twice your speed, that must have been a houserule I once played under.

Regardless, as long as there's cover to be reliably found within twice the fighter's move speed, and twice the fighter's move speed is greater than the barbarian's move speed, a fighter can continuously withdraw behind it to deny the barbarian a chance to attack in melee while in Rage.

Granted, this sort of obviates the OP's question of a fighter being able to beat a Raging barbarian by attempting to outlast it.

Re: dwarven fighter:

You're right again. That's strange, I always thought that dwarves moved at 30 ft. Was that a change from 3.0? I knew they didn't take the heavy armor movement penalty, and that seems to have stayed the same.

Re: glove of storing

Why would you need to ready an action? Snap your fingers at the start of the round (free action) to "draw" your bow, fire away, snap your fingers at the end and you're back to towershield and defending weapon. It's like switching weapons in Diablo II...

Re: the mechanics of tower shield cover

Where does it say that the total cover (not just cover, apparently) provided by a tower shield has any lasting duration at all? I can't find it. The only reference I find in the SRD is in the tower shield description, where it says that "a tower shield can instead grant you total cover, but you must give up your attacks to do so." No duration specified. So the readied action to attack when the defender is not benefiting from cover doesn't do anything if the defender just sits there, giving up his attacks round after round after round.

Incidentally, total cover is more than just cover. You can't make an attack against an enemy with total cover relative to you, period. So the strategy of holding a tower shield and claiming total cover from the barbarian for the entire rage duration, then beating the barbarian when he's fatigued, seems to work.

I guess this is why people were talking about sundering the shield.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 04:58 PM
That's not a strawman. You say they have an edge but by no means have you demonstrated that. Excepting of course, when the barbarian has a 30 PB, and is compared to the elite array.

And again, my model is 28pb, and was compared to another poster's character who did not have the courtesy to state he was using elite array (since he compared the 15str fighter to an 18str barbarian, it seems that he wasn't either).

You stated that I'm calling it a foregone conclusion, when I'm not.

You say that I type a lot of things that I don't. It's almost like you're disregarding my actual position, and imagining up a different one that's easier to debate. Hence, strawman.

That said, movement is the key. You've ignored it more than once, and, I assure you, it's much more important than you think.

@Others:
There's people here saying that a level 1 fighter with spirited charge will win with a lance, discounting the fact that the light warhorse alone is the level 1 fighter's entire average starting amount. So if you want to compare a level 1 mounted fighter vs anything? Make sure you remember he's naked and weaponless, atop a horse with neither saddle nor barding.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 05:18 PM
Re: PhoenixRivers:
My basic point is that if the presence of horses makes it so that the only way for any character to deal damage is by using a long-range weapon, and all of the good archer builds rely on tons of feats, and strength bonus on bows is capped, then wouldn't Fighter basically win this challenge hands down?Because there's many places horses can't safely go.

Like dungeons, most caves, up ladders, etc. They're useful, if you can get them, but they are not the be all and end all fighting tool.


Regardless, as long as there's cover to be reliably found within twice the fighter's move speed, and twice the fighter's move speed is greater than the barbarian's move speed, a fighter can continuously withdraw behind it to deny the barbarian a chance to attack in melee while in Rage.
See above. Any fighter in heavier than light armor has a move of 20. Barbarians have a move of 40. Twice the fighter's move speed is not greater than the barbarian's move speed.


Granted, this sort of obviates the OP's question of a fighter being able to beat a Raging barbarian by attempting to outlast it.In addition to not working, yes.

Re: glove of storing

Why would you need to ready an action? Snap your fingers at the start of the round (free action) to "draw" your bow, fire away, snap your fingers at the end and you're back to towershield and defending weapon. It's like switching weapons in Diablo II...
Except it does not work that way. You cannot use your tower shield hand for anything else (PHb). You need 2 hands to fire a bow (PHb).

PHb 141: Readying or loosing a shield is a move-action that does not provoke AoO's. This shows that shields are readied and loosed to use and cease using them.


Re: the mechanics of tower shield cover

Where does it say that the total cover (not just cover, apparently) provided by a tower shield has any lasting duration at all? I can't find it. The only reference I find in the SRD is in the tower shield description, where it says that "a tower shield can instead grant you total cover, but you must give up your attacks to do so." No duration specified. So the readied action to attack when the defender is not benefiting from cover doesn't do anything if the defender just sits there, giving up his attacks round after round after round.First (again): I fail to see how huddling and cowering behind a wall of wood without actually engaging an enemy constitutes a valid strategy for victory. Rather, I see it as an excellent strategy to allow the barbarian to kill everything your fighter is supposed to be "protecting", and continue on his merry way.

Regardless, there is a point, between the start of your turn, and the point you choose to give up your attacks, where you are not protected.

Incidentally, total cover is more than just cover. You can't make an attack against an enemy with total cover relative to you, period. So the strategy of holding a tower shield and claiming total cover from the barbarian for the entire rage duration, then beating the barbarian when he's fatigued, seems to work.Except that rage is a free action (for the second time). There's no barbarian in his right mind that's going to rage at 30 feet, against an opponent that's huddling like a girl behind his shield. If the barbarian's raging, it means that (1) the fight's likely in melee range, and (2) at the time the barbarian did it, he had reason to believe that the very next action was: Melee Attack.

I know how cover works. I also know that, if you haven't given up your attacks (like, at the start of the turn), you're not benefiting.

I guess this is why people were talking about sundering the shield.
Except that it's not even needed to be done. If the fighter is adopting a strategy that allows neither opponent to engage at all:

I posit that the fighter has already lost. The player that plays for a stalemate is the one that is losing.

In other words: Not attacking, and not allowing someone to attack? That's a battle strategy that's right up there with: "Let the orcs attack the town," and "throw commoners to the crocodiles to save yourself".

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 05:19 PM
And again, my model is 28pb, and was compared to another poster's character who did not have the courtesy to state he was using elite array (since he compared the 15str fighter to an 18str barbarian, it seems that he wasn't either).

I cannot recall one where an individual posited a theoretical fighter using 15 strength and then compared it to a barbarian of their own design. Which post is that in?

What I know did happen, is that the original position was the use of elite array by Tyckspoon in post 36, where he neglected to actually use any of the fighter's feats in a comparison, which was then compared to completely different barbarian builds created by individuals using different assumptions, without pointing out the fact that their build was inconsistent with those prior assumptions.


You stated that I'm calling it a foregone conclusion, when I'm not.

You say that I type a lot of things that I don't. It's almost like you're disregarding my actual position, and imagining up a different one that's easier to debate. Hence, strawman.

Fine. To rephrase that to fit, despite the fact that what I'm saying ought to be abundantly clear, you are representing the barbarian as superior to the fighter, be it by a wide or slim margin without presenting any factual comparison, assuming we will take your word for it.


That said, movement is the key. You've ignored it more than once, and, I assure you, it's much more important than you think.

Case in point.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 05:21 PM
:
There's people here saying that a level 1 fighter with spirited charge will win with a lance, discounting the fact that the light warhorse alone is the level 1 fighter's entire average starting amount. So if you want to compare a level 1 mounted fighter vs anything? Make sure you remember he's naked and weaponless, atop a horse with neither saddle nor barding.

A DC 20 Ride Check lets you do all the mounted combat stuff with a light horse. With a high enough Dex, you can give your fighter a lance, masterwork bit and bridle, a light horse, and even a little armour, and make that skill check over half the time.

As mounted combat is a prerequisite for spirited charge, you don't actually need barding either, IIRC. Your +10 Ride check modifier means that your mount is already harder to hit than you are.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just pointing out that a spirited charge level 1 fighter isn't as inconceivable as you might think.



Case in point.

Not really. He did actually explain why earlier.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 05:27 PM
First (again): I fail to see how huddling and cowering behind a wall of wood without actually engaging an enemy constitutes a valid strategy for victory. Rather, I see it as an excellent strategy to allow the barbarian to kill everything your fighter is supposed to be "protecting", and continue on his merry way.

This is a versus situation, not a unilateral "fighter has to protect something, barbarian has to try to kill it" situation. Though frankly, that superior movement doesn't do all that much when it's a fighter trying to kill something the barbarian is trying to protect either, because running about doesn't protect a target any more than AC does.


Regardless, there is a point, between the start of your turn, and the point you choose to give up your attacks, where you are not protected.Except that rage is a free action (for the second time). There's no barbarian in his right mind that's going to rage at 30 feet, against an opponent that's huddling like a girl behind his shield. If the barbarian's raging, it means that (1) the fight's likely in melee range, and (2) at the time the barbarian did it, he had reason to believe that the very next action was: Melee Attack.

I know how cover works. I also know that, if you haven't given up your attacks (like, at the start of the turn), you're not benefiting.
Except that it's not even needed to be done. If the fighter is adopting a strategy that allows neither opponent to engage at all:

I posit that the fighter has already lost. The player that plays for a stalemate is the one that is losing.

Both sides are going for a stalemate in this instance. The barbarian is using ineffectual attacks and avoiding melee combat where either side could decide the outcome. The fighter is moving towards the barbarian, but preventing attacks from hitting. In this instance, if the barbarian were not running about, decisive combat would occur.


In other words: Not attacking, and not allowing someone to attack? That's a battle strategy that's right up there with: "Let the orcs attack the town," and "throw commoners to the crocodiles to save yourself".

In a campaign context I would agree with that mentality, but not in a vs. situation.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 05:29 PM
Not really. He did actually explain why earlier.

Not really. He assumes the barbarian will just kill the fighter at a range, from beyond 40 feet. Of course, he'll be hitting even a 2 hand weapon fighter on 20s, and will be likely taking return fire that has a higher chance of hitting. At which point he'd either have to run away, or charge in anyway, which is pretty much what he's stating he could avoid with that speed. The particulars of terrain and either build is important in this case though.

Speed only really matters when you're a viable threat in both melee and at range, or better at the one that your opponent is bad at.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 05:32 PM
Not really. He assumes the barbarian will just kill the fighter at a range, from beyond 40 feet. Of course, he'll be hitting even a 2 hand weapon fighter on 20s, and will be likely taking return fire that has a higher chance of hitting. At which point he'd either have to run away, or charge in anyway, which is pretty much what he's stating he could avoid with that speed. The particulars of terrain and either build is important in this case though.

No, I'm pretty sure he was rather clear that a 40ft move basically meant that the barbarian set the terms of combat (unless your fighter happens to ride around).

You can dispute the usefulness of any particular set of terms, but the fighter has no way to force the barbarian into an engagement the barbarian will lose, unless the fighter is mounted (in which case he spends nearly half his time doing nothing at level 1).

I'm also not seeing how a barbarian can need a natural 20 to hit something with an AC which will probably be less than 20 in quite a few cases.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 05:33 PM
I cannot recall one where an individual posited a theoretical fighter using 15 strength and then compared it to a barbarian of their own design. Which post is that in?

My post, post 115 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7464524&postcount=115), which you are attacking, responded (and frickin QUOTED) the post which I was responding to, which was this post, post 114 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7464199&postcount=114). Yeah. The post right before it, and atop that, QUOTED immediately before the point I made.

As the specific comment exists within the post you criticize, in quote format, I find it harder and harder to take you seriously, when you can read my posts, and yet miss the basic context of the post (included via quote).


What I know did happen, is that the original position was the use of elite array by Tyckspoon in post 36, where he neglected to actually use any of the fighter's feats in a comparison, which was then compared to completely different barbarian builds created by individuals using different assumptions, without pointing out the fact that their build was inconsistent with those prior assumptions.So you can look back to post 36 for the information, and disregard that it's in the very post you criticize, with an honest to goodness link (click the name by the quote) to the post?

Hm. Looks like open and shut case of missing the forest for the trees.


Fine. To rephrase that to fit, despite the fact that what I'm saying ought to be abundantly clear, you are representing the barbarian as superior to the fighter, be it by a wide or slim margin without presenting any factual comparison, assuming we will take your word for it.If by "factual comparison", you mean "arena match personally opposed by you"? Not interested. If you want such things, take them to the arena threads here.

There's a reason that fighter is lower tier than barbarian. The "factual comparison" has been done already, by persons more skilled than either of us.

So, I can take the opinion of Yukitsu... Or the entire established viewpoint of character optimization from experts across multiple sites.

I believe I'm not the one representing a view that bucks conventional view. Therefore, I'm not the one with the burden of proof.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 05:42 PM
A DC 20 Ride Check lets you do all the mounted combat stuff with a light horse. With a high enough Dex, you can give your fighter a lance, masterwork bit and bridle, a light horse, and even a little armour, and make that skill check over half the time.


Yes. The original argument is that this is a level 1 fighter.

A level 1 fighter's starting wealth is averaged at 150g.

A Light Warhorse costs 150g.

Where's the money for a lance, bit and bridle, armor, and more?

As for using a light horse instead?


Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.
So, now we're doing a mobility fight where, 50% of the time, you can't move?
And 50% of the time, you can't take any actions at all that round? And with the horse's 19 HP, within 1 hit territory for a barbarian? Sounds like relatively soon, the mounted fighter is going to be a foot soldier with no bonus feats, and the better part of 100gp down the drain.

Kinda similar to a fallen paladin.

lesser_minion
2009-12-09, 05:55 PM
It's actually 45% of the time, and 30% of the time if you're prepared to break out a flaw or two for an incredibly awful feat.

Also, the barbarian is actually less likely to hit the horse than the rider (who is far squishier).

However, yes, this is a fairly impractical build.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 06:07 PM
My post, post 115 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7464524&postcount=115), which you are attacking, responded (and frickin QUOTED) the post which I was responding to, which was this post, post 114 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7464199&postcount=114). Yeah. The post right before it, and atop that, QUOTED immediately before the point I made.

Going back, I didn't quote that post, nor the one it was in response to. In addition, it is my suspicioun that the individual is using the elite array fighter used back on the second page, as I can't particularly figure out why you'd pick an odd number on your primary stat for a comparison at low levels.


As the specific comment exists within the post you criticize, in quote format, I find it harder and harder to take you seriously, when you can read my posts, and yet miss the basic context of the post (included via quote).
So you can look back to post 36 for the information, and disregard that it's in the very post you criticize, with an honest to goodness link (click the name by the quote) to the post?

Actually, that's partly becuase you acredited a string of the conversation from someone else that I had not stated. I even commented that you've misquoted the individual in question as being me. My only criticism of the disparity was relatively offhand, compared to the actual point of my statement, which is that the barbarian hasn't been shown to have an advantage, other than using the assumption that he can A) hit the fighter and kill him in one hit (same for both sides at 1) or B) that the fighter can't weather out the rage duration, neither of which have been demonstrated other than by saying he does.


Hm. Looks like open and shut case of missing the forest for the trees.
If by "factual comparison", you mean "arena match personally opposed by you"? Not interested. If you want such things, take them to the arena threads here.

Then don't complain when I say that your assertions in any direction aren't necessarily backed by anything other than opinion.


There's a reason that fighter is lower tier than barbarian. The "factual comparison" has been done already, by persons more skilled than either of us.

So, I can take the opinion of Yukitsu... Or the entire established viewpoint of character optimization from experts across multiple sites.

I believe I'm not the one representing a view that bucks conventional view. Therefore, I'm not the one with the burden of proof.

Yeah, the fighter was put to a lower tier because under standard assumptions of optimization it can't achieve as much as the barbarian. That's relevant in a campaign, but not in vs. matches, which is pretty much what the OP was asking about. However, it's not lower because it can't beat a barbarian assuming both were designed for that sort of arena mentality.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 07:47 PM
Going back, I didn't quote that post, nor the one it was in response to. In addition, it is my suspicioun that the individual is using the elite array fighter used back on the second page, as I can't particularly figure out why you'd pick an odd number on your primary stat for a comparison at low levels.

That was my post, and the idea was that a fighter with a less single-minded focus on Str -- that is, one who settles for a 15 Str under 25-pt buy in order to have the requisite Int and Dex for feats that he may want -- is going to, by virtue of feats, be as good at tripping or grappling or disarming as a barbarian who focuses on Str, dumps all his points into that, and then rages. The barbarian has two advantages here: SAD and Rage. But even so, he's only equal to the fighter. I didn't pick 15 Str to be advantageous to the fighter, but rather picked a 15 over a 16 because that frees up 2 points for Int, Con, or Dex (and he'd likely have a 16 Str by level 4, so he'd then pull ahead of the raging barbarian).

A barbarian with both 18 Str and one of the feats (assuming he can select it) will have the advantage at one of the various options, but will still tie at the others. PhoenixRivers then went off on his side tangent proving orc racial supremacy by picking 22 Str, when clearly the point I was making was about the class abilities, not the race.

An orc fighter with 19 Str and the feats is going to be on a par with the orc barbarian with 22/26 Str and lacking the feats. A human fighter with 15 Str and the feats is going to be on a par with a human barbarian with 18/22 Str and lacking the feats.

I don't buy the tier argument that I keep hearing. First of all, it doesn't remain the same under all possible situations; we are discussing Core here, and my argument has been that the fighter holds his own or is better at a specific subset of levels. Second, a one-tier difference is not cut-and-dried absolute gospel. Third, the tiers are based on overall usefulness, not a one-on-one duel. And the OP's question was about a one-on-one duel with a RAGING barbarian. Again, let me make that clear, since the point seems to be missed. A RAGING barbarian. Not one that is using mobility and staying out range and waiting for the fighter to drop his guard.

Eldariel
2009-12-09, 08:19 PM
And the OP's question was about a one-on-one duel with a RAGING barbarian. Again, let me make that clear, since the point seems to be missed. A RAGING barbarian. Not one that is using mobility and staying out range and waiting for the fighter to drop his guard.

By the same token though, it seemed like OP's point was beating the Barbarian in a FIGHT, not in a skirmish running around in circles or sitting behind total cover or throwing tanglefoot bags, but actually taking hits and dishing out hits vs. the Barbarian until one drops; the OP's question seemed to be whether that one would be the Barbarian or the Fighter.

Now, I'm still of the opinion that regardless of the options chosen in Core (regardless of how implausible in a real game and thus pretty besides-the-point), be it Mounted Archery, AC turtling or whatever the hell else, the Barbarian has at least a fair shot at winning with the standard Tripper-line of feats I provided (or Grappler-line, I guess, if really just looking to abuse the PB).


However, if talking strictly within the parameters it seems to me like the OP is placing, that's really all a moot point; all we should be looking at is whether the AC loss and Fighter's bonus feats can compensate for the bonuses the Rage grants, or rather on how many levels does the Fighter have the advantage in a single-minded exchange of blows and on how many does it go to the Barbarian assuming "optimal for stationary melee combat and not specifically built to counter the opponent" (vague, I know) set of feats and equipment for both.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 08:37 PM
However, if talking strictly within the parameters it seems to me like the OP is placing, that's really all a moot point; all we should be looking at is whether the AC loss and Fighter's bonus feats can compensate for the bonuses the Rage grants, or rather on how many levels does the Fighter have the advantage in a single-minded exchange of blows and on how many does it go to the Barbarian assuming "optimal for stationary melee combat and not specifically built to counter the opponent" (vague, I know) set of feats and equipment for both.
Right, and I think that's the logic behind the 3.0 DMG statement. The "fighter feats" -- the core Weapon Focus line, ignoring the tactical options -- give +1/+2 at levels 4-7, while Rage gives +2/+3. The "fighter feats" give +2/+2 at levels 8-10, while Rage is still at +2/+3, then goes up to +3/+4.5 at 11, then the "fighter feats" go to +2/+4.

The AC advantage for the fighter is meant to balance out the roughly +1/+1 advantage in attack rolls and damage, as well as the superior HP that the barbarian has. 3E designers may have not properly accounted for the synergies that popped up with the splatbooks, but I think they understood the basic math of AC, hp, attack rolls, damage, and hit probabilities, to balance rage against the fighter feats decently well.

Kalirren
2009-12-09, 09:07 PM
The original argument is that this is a level 1 fighter.


Actually, no. The OP specified no level range and no party-context. I don't think anyone in this thread is actually of the opinion that a fighter can outfight a barbarian in a typical party context. I don't think there's anyone in this thread who would rather see a fighter than a barbarian in their party roster in a traditional dungeon-crashing party. The only times I could think of a fighter being reliably better than a barbarian would be in highly-situational contexts such as a low-magic nomadic steppes campaign where mounted archery is very, very strong.

The only reason anyone was talking about level 1 was that I posited somewhere on (my) page 2 (but I use different page display settings than forum default) that it might be viable at low levels to turtle out the barbarian's rage with high AC. Tavar said that low-level wealth would prevent the fighter from using Plate armor, and then I proceeded to delve into the viability of the fighter pursuing a high-AC strategy at levels before Plate was available.

I then went through the analysis of a high-AC strategy at level 1 against a raging orcish barbarian with 18 Str that only used melee attacks and concluded that high AC alone was not viable for a fighter, and that even in the case of a raging human barbarian with 16 Str, the high-AC fighter's chances were only barely better than 50% in the melee.

It was never my intention for those close-quarters level 1 results to be extended to support or refute any thesis about anything but a contextless level-1 1v1-arena battle in close quarters. Hence why I restated the OP's question as,

"Given a certain terrain and a certain character level, give me a single-class fighter build and a single-class barbarian build of that level, and pit them against each other. Are there any viable strategies for the fighter to win without counting on statistically improbable rolls, and what are they?"

And I think the answer to that question is "yes, depending upon the build level and the terrain type." I'm not saying that a mounted archery-focused build can take its horse into a dungeon and expect to be effective against much of anything there, much less a raging barbarian of equal level. That's just wishful thinking. I'm also not addressing anything about the fighter's and/or the barbarian's party role. There is no glass cannon mage to preserve, no smurf village to defend, and if there were, the barbarian would be much more effective at chainsawing through it.

But that's not the situation we're considering. It's just the fighter and the barbarian in the Holodeck arena, and the questions are a) who wins? and b) if the fighter can win, what are his viable strategies? Can a Core fighter beat the raging barbarian at his own game? My guess is no, since that's pretty much how the classes were designed. I suggested the alternative strategy of triggering Rage, running/turtling, and beating the barbarian once the barbarian is fatigued. When does that work, if ever? Are there other special situations where other ways are viable?

If your aim is just to show why the Barbarian is a higher-tier class than the Fighter, I think you're preaching to the choir.

Point conceded about readying the tower shield for the gloves, but I still don't see the rules basis for assuming that there's any arbitrary once-a-round break in the continuity of ducking behind a tower shield and giving up all your attacks. I'd be more convinced if you could show me that the total cover effect actually has a stated duration of 1 round, or is stated to last until the beginning of the next round, and/or that it is -activated- by choosing to forgo attacks. That's why I asked. I can't find it. And from the rules I -do- know of, I don't think your interpretation makes sense.

Regarding the forest situation:

A fighter doesn't have to wear heavy armor, you know. Notice that my argument that the fighter can effectively neutralize all the rage rounds doesn't depend upon the fighter's AC. The fighter is favored to win after rage runs out as long as his AC is no worse than the barbarian's is, which means that both sides are probably using mithril breastplate, which puts (say) an orcish fighter's movement speed back at 30', which satisfies our double-move > single-move condition. The fighter is also favored to win before rage because of superior ranged capabilities (that's why I jovially suggested an arbitrary second weapon focus and specialization in throwing axes.)

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 09:25 PM
I don't think there's anyone in this thread who would rather see a fighter than a barbarian in their party roster in a traditional dungeon-crashing party.
Well, I would. IME, a PC that gives up defense for offense is basically saying "I'll get the kills and the glory, and you all can have fun using your actions to keep me from bleeding to death." I have various other objections related to game design and narrative as well. Give me a fighter any day.

The only barbarian I've ever enjoyed having in a party was a bard-barian.

Kalirren
2009-12-09, 09:36 PM
IME, a PC that gives up defense for offense is basically saying "I'll get the kills and the glory, and you all can have fun using your actions to keep me from bleeding to death." I have various other objections related to game design and narrative as well. Give me a fighter any day.

Fair enough. I've always tended to play in groups with good OOC teamwork and team ethics, so it never bothered me.

I do like the idea of bardbarians though. Very well flavored.

In fact, the whole crunch-fluff mismatch with fighter sort of makes me wish there were a more general fighter class that was written more like rogue, which instead of getting a bunch of bonus feats, got a selection of class features. The class would swallow Knight and Monk and Barbarian, possibly Paladin and Ranger too if one wrote it well.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 09:47 PM
Going back, I didn't quote that post, nor the one it was in response to. In addition, it is my suspicioun that the individual is using the elite array fighter used back on the second page, as I can't particularly figure out why you'd pick an odd number on your primary stat for a comparison at low levels.
But you did READ it, right? If so, you should have seen the direct quote. For you to be disputing text I typed, and ignoring other text in the same point, claiming to never have seen it?

Shows that you're not giving this any sort of serious consideration at all. If skimming for easy-to-contest sections and disregarding the rest is your idea of good debate, then go for it.

With someone else.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 09:51 PM
Considering that was never the drive of my argument, but rather someone elses, no, I never really read that post. I figured I would when you properly indicated who was speaking, which you never have. This is because the individual speaking changes the context of what is being said, and if you responded to that entire post in terms of responding to me, then you're missing the point. It's also not particularly relevant to the point I was making.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 09:52 PM
In fact, the whole crunch-fluff mismatch with fighter sort of makes me wish there were a more general fighter class that was written more like rogue, which instead of getting a bunch of bonus feats, got a selection of class features. The class would swallow Knight and Monk and Barbarian, possibly Paladin and Ranger too if one wrote it well.
I do like that idea. But I'd keep it as bonus feats, and just make Rage, Favored Enemy, Unarmed Combat, and The Knight Thing into feat chains. (Rage would start at +2 Str, I think, as Rage as written is better than a single feat.)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 10:08 PM
Actually, no. The OP specified no level range and no party-context. I don't think anyone in this thread is actually of the opinion that a fighter can outfight a barbarian in a typical party context. I don't think there's anyone in this thread who would rather see a fighter than a barbarian in their party roster in a traditional dungeon-crashing party. The only times I could think of a fighter being reliably better than a barbarian would be in highly-situational contexts such as a low-magic nomadic steppes campaign where mounted archery is very, very strong.
Sorry. You seem to be misunderstanding what I said. The original argument for that reasoning thread. The original mounted-combat argument that I responded to.

Not OP, post 1 of the thread.


The only reason anyone was talking about level 1 was that I posited somewhere on (my) page 2 (but I use different page display settings than forum default) that it might be viable at low levels to turtle out the barbarian's rage with high AC. Tavar said that low-level wealth would prevent the fighter from using Plate armor, and then I proceeded to delve into the viability of the fighter pursuing a high-AC strategy at levels before Plate was available.

I then went through the analysis of a high-AC strategy at level 1 against a raging orcish barbarian with 18 Str that only used melee attacks and concluded that high AC alone was not viable for a fighter, and that even in the case of a raging human barbarian with 16 Str, the high-AC fighter's chances were only barely better than 50% in the melee.Agree thus far, with the conclusion. I've not personally concluded the same odds, but the conclusion that AC alone isn't viable, I agree.


It was never my intention for those close-quarters level 1 results to be extended to support or refute any thesis about anything but a contextless level-1 1v1-arena battle in close quarters. Hence why I restated the OP's question as,

"Given a certain terrain and a certain character level, give me a single-class fighter build and a single-class barbarian build of that level, and pit them against each other. Are there any viable strategies for the fighter to win without counting on statistically improbable rolls, and what are they?"

And I think the answer to that question is "yes, depending upon the build level and the terrain type." I'm not saying that a mounted archery-focused build can take its horse into a dungeon and expect to be effective against much of anything there, much less a raging barbarian of equal level. That's just wishful thinking. I'm also not addressing anything about the fighter's and/or the barbarian's party role. There is no glass cannon mage to preserve, no smurf village to defend, and if there were, the barbarian would be much more effective at chainsawing through it.
If the answer is "Yes, depending on...." anything except the fighter's feats, then the accurate answer is "No. The fighter requires additional concessions in level and terrain supporting his feat selection to have a viable chance." There's no other way of looking at it. A standard barbarian fights equally well in plains, forest, dungeons, and cliffside combat.

A fighter, based on his feats, needs certain combat zones eliminated or he's not viable. Thus, the fighter becomes less specialized, and thus, less likely to win under a less "predetermined" set of conditions... Especially when his opponent has the choice, in most of those terrains, whether combat occurs at all.



But that's not the situation we're considering. It's just the fighter and the barbarian in the Holodeck arena, and the questions are a) who wins? and b) if the fighter can win, what are his viable strategies? Can a Core fighter beat the raging barbarian at his own game? My guess is no, since that's pretty much how the classes were designed. I suggested the alternative strategy of triggering Rage, running/turtling, and beating the barbarian once the barbarian is fatigued. When does that work, if ever? Are there other special situations where other ways are viable?I think it's simple enough to say that the first strategy the fighter should shoot for is "gain the ability to control a divinely morphic plane, so as to always guarantee he has the terrain he needs".


Point conceded about readying the tower shield for the gloves, but I still don't see the rules basis for assuming that there's any arbitrary once-a-round break in the continuity of ducking behind a tower shield and giving up all your attacks. I'd be more convinced if you could show me that the total cover effect actually has a stated duration of 1 round, or is stated to last until the beginning of the next round, and/or that it is -activated- by choosing to forgo attacks.
1) In order to benefit from the cover granted by a tower shield, you must choose to give up your attacks.

2) If you have not chosen to give up your attacks, you cannot benefit from the cover provided by a tower shield.

3) You cannot give something up that you do not have. Thus, you cannot give up the Evasion special quality if you do not have it. You cannot give up attacks before you have the capability to make them.

4) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you've not made any choices or decisions or actions.

5) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you haven't yet given up the attacks, because you have to have the ability to make them before you can give them up.

6) Via <5> and <2>, at the very instant your turn starts, you are not benefiting from total cover.


Regarding the forest situation:

A fighter doesn't have to wear heavy armor, you know. Notice that my argument that the fighter can effectively neutralize all the rage rounds doesn't depend upon the fighter's AC. The fighter is favored to win after rage runs out as long as his AC is no worse than the barbarian's is, which means that both sides are probably using mithril breastplate, which puts (say) an orcish fighter's movement speed back at 30', which satisfies our double-move > single-move condition. The fighter is also favored to win before rage because of superior ranged capabilities (that's why I jovially suggested an arbitrary second weapon focus and specialization in throwing axes.)
Wait, if we were discussing wizard vs fighter, would you assume that the wizard bought mithril breastplate?

Then why do it for the barbarian? If you only achieve parity with nearly 5000g items, after selecting the opponent's gear? You haven't.

I've been dealing with low level conditions. You're bringing in an item that's not 25% of the fighter's WBL prior to level 7.

If the fighter is practicing evade and hide, then the standard barbarian build I've suggested can rely on AoO's to take down.

In other words, the only thing you've shown thus far is that the first instincts a fighter has universally had between most fighter proponents, when faced with a barbarian, is run or hide.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 10:16 PM
Considering that was never the drive of my argument, but rather someone elses, no, I never really read that post. I figured I would when you properly indicated who was speaking, which you never have. This is because the individual speaking changes the context of what is being said, and if you responded to that entire post in terms of responding to me, then you're missing the point. It's also not particularly relevant to the point I was making.

Look at 115. Tell me if the relevant post you were saying wasn't there isn't directly quoted and responded to. That's why I quote. That's why most people quote.

To address specific questions, provide clarity on what those questions were, and answer them in an easily understood fashion.

Knowing the question helps understand the answer. Don't blame me because you failed to do that, and then requested my help finding it.

The point you were making involved asking a question on where my numbers came from, and then disputing me when I told you... When the answer to that dispute was in the text you were grumbling at me over.

If you're only going to pick and choose what you acknowledge, you can do it with someone else. Not interested.

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 10:36 PM
Look at 115. Tell me if the relevant post you were saying wasn't there isn't directly quoted and responded to. That's why I quote. That's why most people quote.

To address specific questions, provide clarity on what those questions were, and answer them in an easily understood fashion.

Knowing the question helps understand the answer. Don't blame me because you failed to do that, and then requested my help finding it.

The point you were making involved asking a question on where my numbers came from, and then disputing me when I told you... When the answer to that dispute was in the text you were grumbling at me over.

If you're only going to pick and choose what you acknowledge, you can do it with someone else. Not interested.

OK sure, that individual for some odd reason posits 15 strength for a fighter and 18 for a barbarian. That doesn't change that there was not much in the context of any of my arguments for the relevance of that issue, which I've stated rather repeatedly. The only one arguing strongly against that was someone else that you've mistaken for me.

I suspect you aren't paying attention to the fact that I've never strongly argued that point that the fighter has 15 strength and the barbarian 18. The only post I've made in regards to that issue is an offhand comment tied to a more relevant issue that you're currently trying to direct people away from.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-09, 10:52 PM
OK sure, that individual for some odd reason posits 15 strength for a fighter and 18 for a barbarian. That doesn't change that there was not much in the context of any of my arguments for the relevance of that issue, which I've stated rather repeatedly. The only one arguing strongly against that was someone else that you've mistaken for me.

I suspect you aren't paying attention to the fact that I've never strongly argued that point that the fighter has 15 strength and the barbarian 18. The only post I've made in regards to that issue is an offhand comment tied to a more relevant issue that you're currently trying to direct people away from.
No, the only relevant post you made was asking me where I pulled those numbers out of, and that I was making a specific response to a specific person.

Then you've been badgering me for a page and a half over it. Enough.

I'm done with you. You want to pester me for that long over something so trivial? Go talk to someone who wants to listen to what you say. I've had my fill.

Aldizog
2009-12-09, 11:10 PM
OK sure, that individual for some odd reason posits 15 strength for a fighter and 18 for a barbarian. That doesn't change that there was not much in the context of any of my arguments for the relevance of that issue, which I've stated rather repeatedly. The only one arguing strongly against that was someone else that you've mistaken for me.

I suspect you aren't paying attention to the fact that I've never strongly argued that point that the fighter has 15 strength and the barbarian 18. The only post I've made in regards to that issue is an offhand comment tied to a more relevant issue that you're currently trying to direct people away from.
You're referring to my creation as "some odd reason" without having read my explanation which I was kind enough to post. Here is it again.

I WASN'T picking and choosing numbers to make the fighter look good. I was positing a case with a normally built non-SAD fighter under 25-pt buy against some super-Str-focused barbarian ideal. And the point was that even at 15-vs-18+Rage, the feats still close the gap, okay? What people actually choose in PB for playing a character over a campaign matter much more to me than what they might pick for an arena example. Hence, I didn't pick the numbers just to make the fighter look good in this example. I was thinking of what I would actually create as a well-rounded character.

In an actual build in Core, under 25-pt-buy, yeah, I'd probably still do 15 Str for a fighter (14 Con, and something like 13 Int, 12/13 Dex, 10/9 Wis, 8 Cha). Because there are good feats that require Int and Dex. So I wasn't focused on developing a particular build to great detail and mathematical precision because, as has been noted, anybody can come up with a build to beat any other build.


4) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you've not made any choices or decisions or actions.

5) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you haven't yet given up the attacks, because you have to have the ability to make them before you can give them up.

6) Via <5> and <2>, at the very instant your turn starts, you are not benefiting from total cover.
Wow, is this actually your ruling as a DM? That a testudo formation marching forward using tower shields for total cover throws them to the side once every six seconds?

Yukitsu
2009-12-09, 11:32 PM
No, the only relevant post you made was asking me where I pulled those numbers out of, and that I was making a specific response to a specific person.

Then you've been badgering me for a page and a half over it. Enough.

I'm done with you. You want to pester me for that long over something so trivial? Go talk to someone who wants to listen to what you say. I've had my fill.

The reason I keep "badgering" you is because you keep presenting my position as something that it isn't, and rather agressively at that. For example, asserting that I've responded to things that I have not, in a manner that I have not.

@Aldizog:
The context for this is an arena sort of situation though, where real builds for real games don't really work as they normally should. Hence why some people posit characters with 6s in all of their mental stats, and why having odd numbers doesn't make all too much sense when the build has to stand up on more than a single trick, such as grapple or trip at all levels.

Kalirren
2009-12-09, 11:33 PM
Sorry. You seem to be misunderstanding what I said. The original argument for that reasoning thread. The original mounted-combat argument that I responded to. Not the OP.


Ah, I see. Yeah, I see your point. The point about the wealth is really dependent upon the starting gold rules, though, and that's a really flexible one. If it's 6d4x10 gp starting, the chances that you'll get enough money to buy yourself a lance are still pretty high, and max starting gold is not uncommonly seen either.



If the answer is "Yes, depending on...." anything except the fighter's feats, then the accurate answer is "No. The fighter requires additional concessions in level and terrain supporting his feat selection to have a viable chance." There's no other way of looking at it. A standard barbarian fights equally well in plains, forest, dungeons, and cliffside combat.


Well, yes, there -is- another way of looking at it. It's the way I suggested before, and you've really not given a good reason why it's a invalid way of looking at it. If as someone suggested earlier, a "properly built fighter" is one that -can- win against or otherwise neutralize a raging barbarian in a 1v1, then we've arrived at the conclusion that a properly built fighter is one whose feats are specialized to its favored terrain. So somewhat paradoxically, I'd put forth that the fighter is the -specialist- and the barbarian the -generalist-, contrary to most naive conceptions of the classes. Based upon what you said afterwards, I think you would concur.



A fighter, based on his feats, needs certain combat zones eliminated or he's not viable. Thus, the fighter becomes less specialized, and thus, less likely to win under a less "predetermined" set of conditions... Especially when his opponent has the choice, in most of those terrains, whether combat occurs at all.




I think it's simple enough to say that the first strategy the fighter should shoot for is "gain the ability to control a divinely morphic plane, so as to always guarantee he has the terrain he needs".

Well, I really don't consider that a problem. In gaming practice what this probably means is that discretion is the better part of valor, and the most important thing for a Fighter to know is when he is out of his element.



1) In order to benefit from the cover granted by a tower shield, you must choose to give up your attacks.

2) If you have not chosen to give up your attacks, you cannot benefit from the cover provided by a tower shield.

3) You cannot give something up that you do not have. Thus, you cannot give up the Evasion special quality if you do not have it. You cannot give up attacks before you have the capability to make them.

4) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you've not made any choices or decisions or actions.

5) At the very beginning of your turn, the very instant it starts, you haven't yet given up the attacks, because you have to have the ability to make them before you can give them up.

6) Via <5> and <2>, at the very instant your turn starts, you are not benefiting from total cover.


I disagree with this line of reasoning, based upon the following:


For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

That last is why I would be willing to concede the point if you found a mention that the total cover lasts 1 round. I'd still think it was stupid, but I'd concede the RAW.


Wait, if we were discussing wizard vs fighter, would you assume that the wizard bought mithril breastplate?
No. I assumed mithril breastplate because that's what I think the barbarian would choose to wear. If you have a better idea, I'll hear it. I'm probably wrong when I assume that the 4000 gold couldn't be better spent elsewhere.

And if you're suggesting that the barbarian just wear a chain shirt, well then the fighter can too, so the 4000 gold works both ways. My point is that a fighter is expected to win against a barbarian whose rage is spent, so if a fighter can be built to force the barbarian to rage through superior ranged combat ability and render the rage ineffective by taking advantage of ubiquitous charge cover, then the fighter might be able to win.



Then why do it for the barbarian? If you only achieve parity with nearly 5000g items, after selecting the opponent's gear? You haven't.

I've been dealing with low level conditions. You're bringing in an item that's not 25% of the fighter's WBL prior to level 7.


Hey, I raised the forest scenario first, and I stated flat out that the level range under consideration was levels 6-8.




If the fighter is practicing evade and hide, then the standard barbarian build I've suggested can rely on AoO's to take down.


Ah, you're right about that. Well that gets into strange range change games. The outcome is indeterminate if the fighter matched the barbarians' feats with his base feats. After all, you can play the evade and hide strategy with just light armor.

If the fighter too had Improved Trip, and charges are impossible within a double move, it seems that the first person to close would get tripped, no? I think that the first person to trip the other would probably win, rage or no.

I don't know if the fighter can win, but it's an interesting match. I don't know if the barbarian's 10ft. faster movement makes it impossible for the fighter to use his ranged superiority effectively, or how much damage the fighter can inflict before melee is forced.



In other words, the only thing you've shown thus far is that the first instincts a fighter has universally had between most fighter proponents, when faced with a barbarian, is run or hide.

More accurately, I'm suggesting the idea of triggering rage through superior ranged ability, playing difficult until it wears off, and then winning. I might be wrong about its viability.