MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[Trumpeter]

A Genie Dao's CR is 9. =\ http://www.worldsofimagination.com/monster%20Genie%20Dao.htm

Even so, I like how it fits. Though I don't think it's it.

[Schadrach]

A Genie Dao's CR is 9. =\ http://www.worldsofimagination.com/monster%20Genie%20Dao.htm

Even so, I like how it fits. Though I don't think it's it.

Str is even pretty close, and, well, SHOVE.

CR9 at 11HD. It can gain another 11HD before it hits Huge and size becomes a problem. If we can explain away (or reduce from) Huge size then we can advance as high as 37HD. An extra 26 HD and the according feats/etc might help on the "making it tougher" front.

So, an advanced Dao with some kind of template/spell effect to make it only Large, maybe?

[Nerdanel]

That's a Dicefreaks Dao. They like to scale things to become more powerful. The WotC Dao is weaker than that and CR 7 instead of CR 9.

That said, perhaps looking at Open Game Content from non-WotC sources might be worth it, even though it's unlikely. Just make sure that the monster was written early enough for strip 100.

[Forbiddenwar]

Str is even pretty close, and, well, SHOVE.

CR9 at 11HD. It can gain another 11HD before it hits Huge and size becomes a problem. If we can explain away (or reduce from) Huge size then we can advance as high as 37HD. An extra 26 HD and the according feats/etc might help on the "making it tougher" front.

So, an advanced Dao with some kind of template/spell effect to make it only Large, maybe?

What about change shape ? Another one of it's abilities.
"Change Shape (Su): A noble dao can assume the form of any humanoid, monstrous humanoid or giant its size or smaller."

"wish (to nongenies only)" can explain a lot too. How Miko wished to escape from the tower, how wishing for O-Chul didn't work until V showed up and wished to escape with him, how O-chul (maybe) wished for rain. The spellcraft or wish can explain the "Half a ritual" comment.

The question is the father big enough and eats a lot?

But still, You know this looks good enough to be a strong contender, particularly if it is advanced enough.

Edit: huh, shape change can also explain Xykon thinking MitD is powerful

[Dancing_Fox]

I've looked the comic over a few times, and I really see no new clues. . .

But there are new facts, no? Such as "pulling" the rope.

Always good to have new facts, even if they don't seem to be "clues" at the moment or lead anywhere on their own. Get enough facts and theories can be tested against them.

At least that is what you yourself leading by example, and countless others have been doing this whole thread.

I imagine that The Giant would be considering very carefully what information he includes on the MitD in each comic. I'm sure that he would be intending to avoid dropping the killer clue that would give the game away accidentally in one fell swoop. (Mixed metaphors, so what?) We'll just have to work with the titbits.

Although I dishearteningly agree that being able to pull a rope doesn't exactly narrow the field overwhelmingly. :smallfrown:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The question is the father big enough and eats a lot?

Also: is it ugly enough to make people puke? Is it weird enough to become a circus act?


But still, You know this looks good enough to be a strong contender, particularly if it is advanced enough.
It certainly will be added to the list of suggestions, not so sure about forerunner, although the combination of wish+shove+growth is important enough to at least consider it.


Edit: huh, shape change can also explain Xykon thinking MitD is powerful
There is something about shape change, though: Rich doesn't like it all that much. That's why he has two articles on how to fix it, but throughout them I get the feeling he'd be much happier just discarding the whole idea. I'm not sure it fits his style to have a creature that is shape-changed into another.

A rather weak objection, though, since I can think of a counter: Rich may have wanted to give an example of "proper" use of shape change (although why he'd do that on a permanently obscured monster?).

More in-universe, MitD desn't strike me mentally as the kind of person capable of shape changing voluntarily (Protean-style, on the other hand, I can see perfectly).

Edit:
But there are new facts, no?
Certainly. There is always new facts - every appearance of MitD counts, after all. But there is little new that is told by him pulling on a rope. We already knew he could grasp (see: crayons), we already knew he is childish and considers some basic stuff "very difficult". This comic doesn't bring anything particularly new to the table.

There is also a risk associated to this situation: with lack of new clues, people (me included) will try to wring whatever scraps they can, and there is an increased chance of fixating on some unimportant detail and blow it out of all proportion.

Grey Wolf

[Schadrach]

Well the Khayal is a bust now that I have my books back -- no wish.

If there's a way to get around the "needing a way to cause the escape" issue with templates/what have you, while I was looking up the Khayal I saw another creature to consider, if only because it gets around the size restriction in a nifty way (and if there's a way to claim a single arbitrary (Su) ability from another creature via template etc give this to the Dao and advance it to Huge and all is good).

Ephemeral Hangman (Tome of Magic)

Pros:

It looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body. Holding still it ca resemble a black tree if it so desires, but can contort enough to spread itself basically flat. It's strange enough looking that it's considered to be bizarre even for things native to the Plane of Shadow (which tend to be strange and twisted to begin with).

It has Regeneration 5 when in darkness or shadowy illumination, except versus spells with the light descriptor.

Base size is large.

Shadow Pocket: When in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it, fitting into a single 5' square with no penalty, and a 2.5' square if it squeezes.

They only rarely speak, and when they do it's in Undercommon.

Environment: Any underground or urban.

Cons:

No innate way to cause the teleport effect.

Actually *prefers* eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back".

Base CR is 7@11HD, advancement up to 33HD and Huge could reduce this somewhat.

Str 22

That said, it might actually if nothing else be a better target for template-based solutions, at the very least it's as good a match as a Terrasque without having "there's only one" as an issue, and crossing the size hurdle easily enough via shadow pocket.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ephemeral Hangman (Tome of Magic)

Does it have plane shift? I would expect it to, given that it's from another plane, and we've been accepting that as a "poor man's" teleport, so to speak. Otherwise, it sounds disturbing, fits well with the whole "they expect him to eat babies" (i.e. I don't think that it's a con), can see it turned into a circus act, explains better than anything else why he is kept in shadows until needed, and in general is a good fit if it wasn't for its lack of power.

Grey Wolf

[Schadrach]

Does it have plane shift? I would expect it to, given that it's from another plane, and we've been accepting that as a "poor man's" teleport, so to speak. Otherwise, it sounds disturbing, fits well with the whole "they expect him to eat babies" (i.e. I don't think that it's a con), can see it turned into a circus act, explains better than anything else why he is kept in shadows until needed, and in general is a good fit if it wasn't for its lack of power.

Grey Wolf

3.5 Tome of Magic page 161. No plane shift, the only teleport-like ability he has is "step into shadow", which functions as dimension door.

Other issue I've caught that might be a problem is base Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16. Makes it hard to get the assumed/implied high int, low wis.

I still think advancing a creature (especially when it can advance 20+ HD) is a potential solution for the "lacking power" issue in many cases.

[Nerdanel]

Ephemeral Hangman with templates? Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman?

The monster lists are severely lacking in high-int, low-wis monsters. Monsters either tend to have both at roughly similar levels, or else they have low int and decent wis. There might be some exceptions, but meanwhile the best explanation I have is previous permanent wisdom drain.

[Selene]

I assumed it because you were expecting it to be relevant - without you telling me why it is important, I had to assume a reason. It seems I didn't get the reason you wanted, sorry.

You could have just asked for clarification. There's no need to snap. Again. :smallfrown:

[the larva mage]

not sure if these have been mentioned, but:
a formian-
pros-they have one big yellow eye and one little yellow eye, and the big eye is able to cast magic (kind of). they are also lazy, own high qulatiy (almost like art) weapons and armour, but are incredibly ugly. they also are strong. home habitat is the caves of the underdark.
cons- dont realy have the ability to teleaport people, and are not that strong. they can also speak, but only elven, not common.

a grey slaad-
pros-also know as a rift slaad, can teleport people both within a plane and between planes.
cons-so-so strenght.

gnoll-
pro-they have yellow eyes.
con-about as likely as belkor getting into lawfull good heaven.

Yuan-ti anathema-
pro-very strong, made up of an algamation of living snakes and the MitD finds co-ordinating his body to pull things difficult. also, any attacks would hit an individual snake, and may not be noticed by him. can change size. all anathema are striken with maddness, so they are (usally) unable to speak. will leave unusuall tracks.
con-they are all blood-frenzy mad, but maybe this shows itself as immaturity instead. if not mad, then this may explain why he is unusall, but it was Zerhi who cursed them, so unlikely. they also come from jungles, and MitD was found in one, but he wasn't supposed to. more than likely copy-righted anyway.

the formian is curently my favouret (well, a death titan was at first but then i looked at the eviednce more closely).

[DarklingPerhaps]

Um... The eyes and their color probably aren't a clue at all. And the different sizes is just the way he draws all eyes.

[feltex]

Never heard of it. Can I have a link to its stats, or at least to an explanation page?
Grey Wolf

Here are the 1st ed. stats on Dao I posted a few months ago.....

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7171661#post7171661



Intelligence: Low to Very
Alignment: neutral evil

Their magical abilities enable them to use any of the following spell-like powers, 1 at a time, once each per day:change self, detect good, detect magic, assume gaseous form, become invisible. fulfill another's limited wish (in a perverse way), cause misdirection, passwall, create a spectral force, create a wall of stone. Dao can turn rock to mud 3 times per day and use dig as often as 6 times per day. Dao perform at the 18th level of spell use.

[Sky_Schemer]

I went back through SoD today and one thing that jumped out was the name of the circus, which is "Ding-a-ling Brother's Anachronistic Circus". I have a hard time believing that the term "Anachronistic" is meant as a throw-away joke, or just an excuse for the flying elephant and Batman & Robin jokes later on. My suspicion is that the MitD, much like the other creatures there, doesn't "fit" in the D&D world.

[Shpadoinkle]

In that case I'm going back to my idea of it being a heffalump

[Darklord Bright]

MitD is the flying spaghetti monster.

[Forbiddenwar]

I went back through SoD today and one thing that jumped out was the name of the circus, which is "Ding-a-ling Brother's Anachronistic Circus". I have a hard time believing that the term "Anachronistic" is meant as a throw-away joke, or just an excuse for the flying elephant and Batman & Robin jokes later on. My suspicion is that the MitD, much like the other creatures there, doesn't "fit" in the D&D world.

The circus is anachronistic because circuses don't fit in the middle ages (D&D). That is all.

[Selene]

I'm back to baby Cthulhu.

[ScottishDragon]

In that case I'm going back to my idea of it being a heffalump

It's obviously a jagular.

[Sky_Schemer]

The circus is anachronistic because circuses don't fit in the middle ages (D&D). That is all.

Circuses date back to ancient Rome, though what we'd recognize as a circus is more 18th century. Still, the larger point is that the "creatures" in the circus in SoD are also anachronistic, so I think there's more to it than just a circus possibly being out of place. It is a circus that may be out of place filled with creatures that are definitely out of place.

[the larva mage]

Um... The eyes and their color probably aren't a clue at all. And the different sizes is just the way he draws all eyes.

yet some people think his challenge rating is a clue. that confused me. surly you can just scale the monster up in power? or is that just 4e?


edit: just been archive surfing, and in #97, the MitD says "its not my fault i cant see anything in this darkness" so he has normal vison, not low-light or dark. intersting.

[Kish]

yet some people think his challenge rating is a clue. that confused me. surly you can just scale the monster up in power? or is that just 4e?
Given that everyone who knows what he is also knows he's epic-level (which doesn't mean the same thing it does in 4ed either)..."it's just 4e" is close enough.

And nothing ever indicates the creature in the darkness is unusually powerful for a whatever-he-is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And nothing ever indicates the creature in the darkness is unusually powerful for a whatever-he-is.

Indeed, a case can be done he is actually less powerful than one would expect, from Xykon's comment before the tower (paraphrased) that nothing in the tower is scarier than MitD is... or rather than he should be.

Indeed, the idea he is a youngling is very much supported by that, amongst other clues.

Edit:
edit: just been archive surfing, and in #97, the MitD says "its not my fault i cant see anything in this darkness" so he has normal vison, not low-light or dark. intersting.

Unfortunately, we know it to be magical darkness, and thus tells us very little about his visual abilities.

Grey Wolf

[ZerglingOne]

He's some form of Domo-kun. Like Domo with the ability to teleport others.

Evidence: Domo's favorite food is stew, Domo cannot speak, "Domo's expression is "a sort of cheery wonderment. Like when a kid wakes to a room full of presents on Christmas day." <-wiki, he certainly is strange looking, lives in a cave and as such seeing him in a jungle would be odd...

Yeah I'm reaching, but the first 2 points of evidence are strangely compelling to me.

edit: hah, I found more evidence, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html Explosive farts. Domo has them as well...

[Nerdanel]

On the contrary, I think the MitD needs to be able to sense his surroundings in magical darkness to function in life. Therefore his claim of not seeing anything must either be disregarded as a weak lie or considered to mean the difference between him experiencing the world in black and white as opposed to color. Something like Blindsense doesn't cut it, since the MitD needs to be able to distinguish between black and white Go pieces.

Just compare the MitD's daily life to how the OOTS coped with the magical darkness in the lair of the Mama Black Dragon.

[Forbiddenwar]

Something like Blindsense doesn't cut it, since the MitD needs to be able to distinguish between black and white Go pieces.


He wasn't it darkness then, just in a box. So blindsense could still be an option.

[Adumbration]

Could it be that MitD has some sort of Hide in Plain sight? Even without the umbrella - and, apparently the darkness - the only parts visible of him are his eyes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He's some form of Domo-kun. Like Domo with the ability to teleport others.

Trademarked, I assume?


I don't know if this has been mentioned but in frame 4 of 701 the umbrella has clearly bet set on the floor. MitD seems to have to set the umbrella down to pull on the rope.

Yes, it has been mentioned, starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7774476#post7774476). What conclusion do you draw from it?


Could it be that MitD has some sort of Hide in Plain sight? Even without the umbrella - and, apparently the darkness - the only parts visible of him are his eyes.

While he was no longer using the umbrella, MitD is still in shadows in 701. I don't think Xykon allows him to leave shadows, so he can only drop the umbrella if there are shadows present to hide in.

In any case, since this is Rich's style, I'm fairly certain that we only see his eyes because Rich does not want to give any clues.

Grey Wolf

[Nimrod's Son]

Circuses date back to ancient Rome, though what we'd recognize as a circus is more 18th century. Still, the larger point is that the "creatures" in the circus in SoD are also anachronistic, so I think there's more to it than just a circus possibly being out of place. It is a circus that may be out of place filled with creatures that are definitely out of place.
As Forbiddenwar said, it is the circus itself that is the anachronism, not the attractions therein.

Freakshow, complete with bearded lady? Trapeze artists? Sword-swallower? Performing elephants and poodles? Clowns? Contortionist? Test-your-strength machine? Cotton candy? These are all things I'd expect to see at a circus, and they're all present here. I've got no idea where you came up with the notion that the attractions in the circus are somehow out of place. Hell, if manticores actually existed, I expect real-life circuses would have them, too.

[Selene]

Agreed. And remember that "anachronistic" means something is out of time, not out of place. The polar bears in the jungle on Lost are not anachronistic. Now if they had been saber-tooth tigers...

[Lord Bingo]

I was thinking, is there any chance MitD could be a Shadow Dragon.

Pro's
1) It can create supernatural darkness which can only be penetrated by a daylight spell.
2) It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
3) Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
4) It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
5) It has an energy breath weapon -I don't know if it is relevant.
6) It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....

Con's
1) Not incredibly strong
2) I can't really account for the stomp...
3) -also, we've never seen him fly

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was thinking, is there any chance MitD could be a Shadow Dragon.

Pro's
1) It can create supernatural darkness which can only be penetrated by a daylight spell.


If he could create its own darkness, he wouldn't have needed the umbrella, only an order from Xykon.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

To disappear into darkness the Shadow dragon needs a lighting condition other than a full daylight equivalent, so it would need some shadow -hence the umbrella.

A shadow dragon is both clever and wise. It is into trickery and can cast cleric spells as arcane spells.

Also they belong underground and would not normally be encountered in a jungle.

They have high charisma and cause fear, which would account for reactions of both wonder and fear.

[Forbiddenwar]

Re: shadow dragon

Could you cite which source book it is in so we too can see it.

Is "dimension door" a pro or a con? Dimension door doesn't help or hurt your case.

Can cast Cleric spells? Which means they can animate dead. Which means the possibility of MitD being a Shadow dragon is close to nil.

[ScottishDragon]

To disappear into darkness the Shadow dragon needs a lighting condition other than a full daylight equivalent, so it would need some shadow -hence the umbrella.

A shadow dragon is both clever and wise. It is into trickery and can cast cleric spells as arcane spells.

Also they belong underground and would not normally be encountered in a jungle.

They have high charisma and cause fear, which would account for reactions of both wonder and fear.

Mitd doesn't know any magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html),so no cleric or arcane spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mitd doesn't know any magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html),so no cleric or arcane spells.

Actually, that only tells us that he has been told he hasn't got enough intelligence for INT-based spellcasting. Things like CHA-based spells (say, sorcerer) are still in the works. As for cleric, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) almost certainly discards it.

Grey Wolf

[averagejoe]

As for cleric, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) almost certainly discards it.

Grey Wolf

Unless I'm missing something, this would seem to indicate only that MitD doesn't have cleric levels. This in and of itself doesn't rule our the creature that MitD is getting cleric spells as part of its advancement, a la solars and astral devas. I seem to remember someone saying somewhere that MitD has high(ish, or at least average) int and low wis, but also that his wis might just be low because he's a child (and thus too low to cast the spells.) Also, a strict reading of that strip just means that MitD can't cast Raise Dead, not that he can't cast cleric spells at all. Other possibilities occur to me, with varying probability. MitD's creature type can cast cleric spells, but MitD doesn't know how to cast them. (Somewhat supported by the fact that he thinks he can, but a major drawback is that there has been no hint of this.) Also, it's possible that he can cast Raise Dead, and RC just didn't believe him. (Unlikely enough that the only reason I posted it is for the sake of completeness.)

Anyways, this isn't a defense of the shadow dragon, as I don't know its statistics. This was purely an analysis of the content in that strip. I'm fully prepared to admit that there may be something I'm forgetting that would contradict this.

[Lord Bingo]

I'm sorry. I should of course have mentioned that the Shadow Dragon is from Monsters of Faerun. It is probably true, though, that the idea that MitD is a shadow dragon won't fly.

[DavidBV]

I think we all are on the wrong track. We're looking for creatures capable of teleporting, or spellcasting; with high Spellcraft, even I myself proposed prismatic dragon. Usually the wish/escape whatever is the bottleneck that leaves out most of the Monster Manual. Not to mention how hard it is to find a monster with such a high STR that fits under an umbrella...

However, Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to believe MiTD is capable of anything but "eating enemies", not a good choice of words for a spellcaster monster. He has been asked to eat the PCs, to eat a certain hypotetical traitor(SoD) and to eat babies. He hasn't been ever been asked to cast a spell, or use other powers, which in the case of Wish, certainly could provide a huge tactical advantage. Xykon doesn't suspect he teleported O-Chul, but he certainly would if we were talking about a monster that can cast spells or have spell-like abilities. Also he asks Tsukiko to check on a ritual, certainly if he knew the base race of MiTD has a huge Spellcraft skill, he could have asked him to help too.

If we add the fact that the base creature is not suposed to speak (SoD), we must come to the only possible conclusion: the base creature is just a physically powerful monster, which rarely talks, and has a huge mouth with which it often eats its enemies. It must NOT be inmune to being charmed (SoD). Other than that, a high Str is the only needed thing. Maybe a young Bulette (just out of my head as example, not a serious proposal).

So why can MiTD do "Escape" or "Wish", or why does it have more spellcraft than Tsukiko? How can it have a 32+ str which barely any creature of that size posseses?

Here's where Rich words come to aid:


the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one.

The way I understand this, MiTD is a creature not literally taken from any book, but modified, enhanced, for a reason related to the main plot. This other sentence also seems to support this:


Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was

Why exactly then? and why mentioning that he figured it out when he developed the story? IMHO, because MiTD has a place in that background story, and what makes him a special creature of his race must be linked to the main plot. Snarl Jr. has been proposed before, and I don't think that's possible at all, but now we have learned that the Snarl may not even exist (there is a world where the Snarl should be) so the possibilities are open. In fact, too open to even start guessing until we know more of what's behind the gates.

[lothos]

He's some form of Domo-kun. Like Domo with the ability to teleport others.

Evidence: Domo's favorite food is stew, Domo cannot speak, "Domo's expression is "a sort of cheery wonderment. Like when a kid wakes to a room full of presents on Christmas day." <-wiki, he certainly is strange looking, lives in a cave and as such seeing him in a jungle would be odd...

Yeah I'm reaching, but the first 2 points of evidence are strangely compelling to me.

edit: hah, I found more evidence, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html Explosive farts. Domo has them as well...

This certainly is an interesting idea. I had never heard of a Domo before. As Grey Wolf said, if it's copyrighted, that might be an issue. I personally wouldn't regard that as a killer blow, but it's definitely a critical hit :-)

I looked up Domo-kun in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domo-kun) and I couldn't see any information about when it first appeared. It mentions Nickelodeon using it in 2006. It would be useful to know when it first appeared, because if it's after 2004, it can probably be ruled out. As mentioned in the first post of this thread, Rich states that he knew what MitD was from around strip 100, which appeared in 2004. Therefore if this character was created or first appeared in 2005 or later, we can probably eliminate it.

I think the biggest problem is that this needs to be "Like Domo with the ability to teleport others." Teleporting others isn't something that's easily explained. I personally still believe Wish is the best way to explain it, though I like the ingenuity of ideas like his box having dimensional anchor and him casting teleport. If he is a Domo, we still need to explain "Escape", which is actually the biggest challange to many things that have been proposed.

I mean with a bit of stretching, if you don't have to explain "Escape" then quite a lot of monsters fit reasonably well. I mean, looking at your name, what about some kind of Zerg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralisk#Zerg) from Starcraft ? Not necessarily a Zergling... The Ultralisk has enormous strength, is bigger than a medium sized creature (human) but not by much, doesn't normally talk.... but it can't teleport others. I mean I guess you could argue there was a Nydus Canal there..... :-)


I went back through SoD today and one thing that jumped out was the name of the circus, which is "Ding-a-ling Brother's Anachronistic Circus". I have a hard time believing that the term "Anachronistic" is meant as a throw-away joke, or just an excuse for the flying elephant and Batman & Robin jokes later on. My suspicion is that the MitD, much like the other creatures there, doesn't "fit" in the D&D world.

It's interesting.... maybe this is a hint. I mean the style of circus here is anachronistic, even though the Romans did have Circuses (what have the Roman's ever done for us ??? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Life_of_Brian#Political_satire)) but they were not the modern sort of circus we have in the west. So it could be that the style of circus is anachronistic, or that the exhibits within it are... including MitD.


Agreed. And remember that "anachronistic" means something is out of time, not out of place. The polar bears in the jungle on Lost are not anachronistic. Now if they had been saber-tooth tigers...

You know I've always felt that "Sabre-toothed" ought to be applicable to anything for comedic effect. I had a discussion many years ago about sabre-toothed kittens. Fluffly little balls of love that can rip your arm off. Maybe it should be a template :-) I can see Sabre-Toothed budgerigars now.....



I think we all are on the wrong track. We're looking for creatures capable of teleporting, or spellcasting; with high Spellcraft, even I myself proposed prismatic dragon. Usually the wish/escape whatever is the bottleneck that leaves out most of the Monster Manual. Not to mention how hard it is to find a monster with such a high STR that fits under an umbrella...

Prismatic dragon was first proposed (so far as I know) here by hungerer, back in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6263940&highlight=%22prismatic+dragon%22#post6263940). I spent some time looking at the pros and cons here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6447695&highlight=prismatic#post6447695).

I personally believe Prismatic Dragon is a fairly good fit, though there are some problems including size and that it doesn't get Wish till it's a lot older than MitD might reasonably be expected to be.

Talking about high strength monsters that fit under the unbrella, if Miko's problems in strip 374 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) are a special ability and we are looking for something that might have a lot of spellfract, then just looking at those things, the Grey Linnorm from MM2 is a wonderful fit. It's one of the Linnorms like the Dread Linnorm but it only has one head.

It is a huge creature (not Collosal or Gargantuan) when fully grown, so I could believe a juvenile would merely be large.

Like the other Linnorms, it has a special ability to fling opponents 70 feet and they take 7d6 damage. This isn't as much as the other Linnorm types, but it can explain Miko's problems without a stupendous strength.

It also could have Miracle which might explain "Escape", because it has 17th level cleric abilities..... and there is the problem. To cast Miracle it would need 19 wisdom and we know he doesn't have even 5 levels of cleric abilities. That's why I didn't propose it as a serious candidate. However in my opinion it is a better fit than some other things that have been proposed.



However, Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to believe MiTD is capable of anything but "eating enemies", not a good choice of words for a spellcaster monster.


I don't agree with the idea that MitD is only good for eating enemies. Just becasue that's what Xykon wants him to do, doesn't mean he can only do that. The idea of eating the Order of the Stick came up first in strip 103 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html). Now that's around Strip 100, so I guess it's possible that this is the exact strip when Rich knew what MitD was. It might be that swollowing whole is a fundamental feature of this creature... but quite a lot of creatures have the ability to swallow things whole. Also in Start of Darkness, the mind charm that Xykon put on MitD was to swallow Redcloak whole.

Maybe we should give the swallowing thing more weight ? I mean I know it's been said many times before we can rule out creatures like undead and elementals because they don't eat. But perhaps we would scrutinise only creatures that specifically say they can swallow other creatures whole.


He has been asked to eat the PCs, to eat a certain hypotetical traitor(SoD) and to eat babies. He hasn't been ever been asked to cast a spell, or use other powers, which in the case of Wish, certainly could provide a huge tactical advantage. Xykon doesn't suspect he teleported O-Chul, but he certainly would if we were talking about a monster that can cast spells or have spell-like abilities.

I really doubt Xykon has any or many ranks in Knowledge (anything relating to MitD). He is a Sorcerer, not a wizard, so everything other than Knowledge (arcana) is cross classed for him. Xykon has never actually said he knows what MitD is. OK, he might know, but I don't think we can draw firm conclusions on if Xykon knows or not.

You are absolutely correct that if Xykon knew MitD could do stuff like "Escape" he would try to use it to his advantage, everyone and everything seems to just be a tool to him to use to his own advantage or for his own amusement. So the conclusion I draw from this is that Xkyon doesn't really know exactly what MitD is or what he is capable of.


Also he asks Tsukiko to check on a ritual, certainly if he knew the base race of MiTD has a huge Spellcraft skill, he could have asked him to help too.

Which in my opinion could again be explained as just that Xkyon doesn't know what MitD is.


If we add the fact that the base creature is not suposed to speak (SoD), we must come to the only possible conclusion: the base creature is just a physically powerful monster, which rarely talks, and has a huge mouth with which it often eats its enemies. It must NOT be inmune to being charmed (SoD). Other than that, a high Str is the only needed thing. Maybe a young Bulette (just out of my head as example, not a serious proposal).


Possible.... but I think I've already made my point that another option is that Xykon doesn't know what he is. Since he doesn't know, we are free to decide if "escape" was caused by MitD or not. Personally I firmly believe "Escape" was caused by MitD (I'm not sure if it's wish or something else). However if my assumption is correct then we are looking for a monster which has such an ability and that rules out a lot of creatures, including that example (unless you modify it).


So why can MiTD do "Escape" or "Wish", or why does it have more spellcraft than Tsukiko? How can it have a 32+ str which barely any creature of that size posseses?

Here's where Rich words come to aid:

[rich quote]
the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one.
[/rich quote]


The way I understand this, MiTD is a creature not literally taken from any book, but modified, enhanced, for a reason related to the main plot. This other sentence also seems to support this:

[rich quote]
Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was
[/rich quote]

Why exactly then? and why mentioning that he figured it out when he developed the story? IMHO, because MiTD has a place in that background story, and what makes him a special creature of his race must be linked to the main plot. Snarl Jr. has been proposed before, and I don't think that's possible at all, but now we have learned that the Snarl may not even exist (there is a world where the Snarl should be) so the possibilities are open. In fact, too open to even start guessing until we know more of what's behind the gates.

OK, I accept that there is a good chance we won't know what MitD is before close to the end of the strip. However part of the fun is trying to figure it out from the clues Rich as given us.

As Grey Wolf said in a post a few pages ago, a lot of the people on this thread are trying to use a scientific method to determine what MitD is. It's possible that we won't succeed. That's not going to stop me trying. Given what I have read from Rich (including his comment that it is possible to guess) I believe that MitD can probably be narrowed down to a few contenders at least.

We haven't found a perfect fit yet. But then in the real world science hasn't answered every question we can ask yet. Figuring out what the MitD is may require more observations (new strips) with experimental results (how he behaves in certain circumstances) allowing us to propose and debate new theories on what he is. I enjoy that process, even if we are not assured of finding a definite answer.

You know, another thought just occured to me. What if the Knowledge skill that allows you to identify MitD species is Knowledge (Religion) ?

The "probably a wizard" guy in the circus is likely to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Xykon, if he has any Knowledge ranks would have been likely to take a few in Knowledge (Arcana) for the Synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

The only character who we believe definitely knows what MitD is is Redcloak, a moderately high level Cleric (at the time of Start of Darkness) who is almost certain to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

Any thoughts ?

[Barlen]

You know, another thought just occured to me. What if the Knowledge skill that allows you to identify MitD species is Knowledge (Religion) ?

The "probably a wizard" guy in the circus is likely to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Xykon, if he has any Knowledge ranks would have been likely to take a few in Knowledge (Arcana) for the Synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

The only character who we believe definitely knows what MitD is is Redcloak, a moderately high level Cleric (at the time of Start of Darkness) who is almost certain to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Religion).


I had consider this line of reasoning as well. But that doesn't guarantee it's Kn(religion). Redcloak is fairly smart and has knowledge outside just religion (he mentioned he got passing grades in Chem etc).



However, Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to believe MiTD is capable of anything but "eating enemies", not a good choice of words for a spellcaster monster. He has been asked to eat the PCs, to eat a certain hypotetical traitor(SoD) and to eat babies. He hasn't been ever been asked to cast a spell, or use other powers, which in the case of Wish, certainly could provide a huge tactical advantage. Xykon doesn't suspect he teleported O-Chul, but he certainly would if we were talking about a monster that can cast spells or have spell-like abilities. Also he asks Tsukiko to check on a ritual, certainly if he knew the base race of MiTD has a huge Spellcraft skill, he could have asked him to help too.

Keep in mind that Knowledge checks might get you partial information. A general knowledge about how powerful a creature is (ooooh epic) and its name might only be a DC 10. But Knowing that it has the ability to use spellcasting powers of some kind might be DC 20 or 30. Redcloak said he knows what it is, but it doesn't seem like he has any idea that it can cast spells or use any powers.

Let me give an example. I went through the list at the start of the thread and decided I like the Hagunemnon the best. Its an epic planar creature that has major shape changing powers. It also has psionic abilities. Redcloak suggested he didn't know the campaign used psionics. Maybe it went like this:
Redcloak has Knowledge (the planes) 10 ranks (maybe granted by the mantle?). He sees the creature and makes a Knowledge check. He needs a DC 20 to know its an epic creature sometimes summoned by epic casters to fight battles, and of course to name it. He needs a DC 30 to have full knowledge of the creature, like that it powers are psionic based. He gets something around a 25 on his check. He can name it and know how powerful it is, but doesn't know it uses psionics.

Now even if you disagree about the Hagunemnon, the logic here would still apply and explain why Redcloak and Xykon don't know about its powers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The way I understand this, MiTD is a creature not literally taken from any book, but modified, enhanced, for a reason related to the main plot.

Why exactly then? and why mentioning that he figured it out when he developed the story? IMHO, because MiTD has a place in that background story, and what makes him a special creature of his race must be linked to the main plot. Snarl Jr. has been proposed before, and I don't think that's possible at all, but now we have learned that the Snarl may not even exist (there is a world where the Snarl should be) so the possibilities are open. In fact, too open to even start guessing until we know more of what's behind the gates.

The full quote is as follows:
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually. (bold mine)

The quote tells us that Rich didn't invent MitD - which discards the Snarl, no two ways about it, unless someone finds Snarl in some work that predates OotS. It also tells us that someone else did invent MitD. But, and I feel this is important, Rich considers MitD guessable. If he were as modified as you propose - say, a faun which Rich had modified to have huge strength, insatiable and indiscriminate appetite and ability to teleport - how would that be guessable?

And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches". Equally, someone else could simply decide to discard everything under "Physical Characteristics". Or some random combination, picking and choosing. And then, yes, anything fits. But it leaves us exactly were we started: without matching your guess to what actually happens in the strip, there is no way to gauge how appropriate it is.


I had never heard of a Domo before.
I wasn't aware of its name, but I had certainly seen (http://doubledeckerbuses.org/blog/media/blogs/new/God-kills-kitten.jpg) it before.


I really doubt Xykon has any or many ranks in Knowledge (anything relating to MitD). He is a Sorcerer, not a wizard, so everything other than Knowledge (arcana) is cross classed for him. Xykon has never actually said he knows what MitD is. OK, he might know, but I don't think we can draw firm conclusions on if Xykon knows or not.
You are overthinking this. If Xykon knows (and I'll give it a big IF since this is Xykon, and simply might not care), it is most likely because RC told him, not because of any knowledge on his part.


Since he doesn't know, we are free to decide if "escape" was caused by MitD or not. Personally I firmly believe "Escape" was caused by MitD (I'm not sure if it's wish or something else).
Actually, we are past that stage now. Behold:


[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.
Unless Rich is purposely trying to mislead us, that's confirmation that the escape was caused by MitD. It also strengthens the idea they might be psionic powers, and as a bonus, suggests an explanation for "RC not knowing about psionics":

RC knows what MitD is. He tries to get him to teleport a few minions. But MitD's ignorance of itself, its general innocence and lack of attention span, etc. defeats the attempts, and RC eventually gives up. If the powers are psionic based, RC would actually wonder if they had failed because of MitD's lack of competence, or because there are no psionics in OotS-verse. Thus having to go out of his way to find some other way to test it.


Keep in mind that Knowledge checks might get you partial information. A general knowledge about how powerful a creature is (ooooh epic) and its name might only be a DC 10. But Knowing that it has the ability to use spellcasting powers of some kind might be DC 20 or 30. Redcloak said he knows what it is, but it doesn't seem like he has any idea that it can cast spells or use any powers.

I understand what you are getting to here. Unfortunately, there is one detail you're overlooking. RC likely has access to every monster manual ever published (as evident for his scouring of them to create the three Xykon "brothers"). RC is also a competent planner, and I doubt he'd stop at the basic knowledge check. He's had plenty of time to look up in the appropriate MM MitD's class, and through it a whole list of every possible power. That said, I think my reasoning above where MitD was deemed useless and incompetent for anything other than being ugly, strong and hungry would have led RC to believe he did not have access to those powers.

Grey Wolf

[Math_Mage]

I understand what you are getting to here. Unfortunately, there is one detail you're overlooking. RC likely has access to every monster manual ever published (as evident for his scouring of them to create the three Xykon "brothers"). RC is also a competent planner, and I doubt he'd stop at the basic knowledge check. He's had plenty of time to look up in the appropriate MM MitD's class, and through it a whole list of every possible power. That said, I think my reasoning above where MitD was deemed useless and incompetent for anything other than being ugly, strong and hungry would have led RC to believe he did not have access to those powers.

Grey Wolf

Or, he isn't in any of the manuals. Instead, he's borrowed from some other fictional setting. As noted in the OP, figuring out how to dodge copyright would be difficult, but it explains the inexplicable gap between RC's knowledge of MitD's abilities and his blithe ignorance of the possibility that MitD used them.

Of course, that might not need explanation, since RC wasn't in the room when the events in question happened.

[lothos]

(snip)
Actually, we are past that stage now.

Awesome ! Thanks.

I haven't got "Don't Split the Party" yet so I am still waiting to read all Rich's commentary and horribly misquote it in support of my outlandish theories :-)

[Saldre]

Hey

I just had to post to mention

I don't think you can use the fact that RC is a competent planner to justify the fact that he would have looked up MitD's identity.

When he was hanging around the books, he was still in his "I hate orange" phase, so you can excuse his poor planning there (sending them to die out of a grudge isn't great planning). Great planning would have been sending in MitD, whose strength alone could have probably wrecked a bigger hole in the wall then the catapults.

Both Xycon and RC have already established that they have absolutely no faith in the MitD, and even use that to their advantage to guarantee Miko's escape.

My point is MitD is more of a hindrance to them, regardless of the abilities he may display, or may not display. Redcloak has time and time again has pushed the MitD aside and away, without as much as a Glance, in order to focus on more serious avenues, and mostly answers him to get him to leave.

All this to say that despite the fact that Rc has all the book, he could have (like Barlen had suggested) only partially succeeded the test in SoD. He gathered up the monsters manuals in preparation to the Azure City battle, which is much much later: It was established that the MitD was ineffective far before he had gathered the books.

In the middle of such an important battle, and even afterwords seeing as he had to worry about maintaining the city and has had no free time (Pretty sure he says hes the one that's keeping the trains on time), he may have decided that the MitD is not worth the research, and even if he were to bother to find out more about it, the creature itself (due to its nature) cannot be used effectively, as such it would be pointless.

Resume: Even if Redcloak has all the books, we cant assume that he went ahead and researched every monster in the manual because he's a good planner. This might be a fallacy, but the fact that he didn't use the MitD to its full potential indicates that he DIDN'T research the monster manuals for it, even if he had access to it, as its strength has been demonstrated time and time again and a good planner would have made good use of it!

- One cant argue that he, as a good planner, didnt use the mitd because he knew it would be too weak, because we as omniscient readers know its "hypothetical" stats, and know that the creature would have been able to do massive damage to the opposing team, if it so much as put in a bit more effort then a slight tap on the ground: azure city's best warriors are like level 5, Miko couldn't overcome its DR, I doubt that anybody in that city, even on a natural 20, would even do 1 damage to the thing, and even if they did (like Ochul mentions) it wouldn't be enough to bring the monster down.

- Triple changed my post! I see that was an example you gave to explain how its possible that RC wouldnt know about Psionics.

-Also, maybe the mitd is in a book that RC wasnt aware existed, one that doesnt have undead in it? What book is the Protean in? Maybe its in a Psionics book? This also could explain why he didnt fully research the MitD's abilities.

-Having reread your post yet again to avoid looking like a b*stard and repeating stuff that's been said before over and over again, I just realized that we basically said the exact same thing.

So there, I agree with the fact that Redcloak has probably not looked up the MitD's real power because he thinks the MitD is too ineffective to be used properly either way.


I hope this makes sense :P

[lothos]

Hi Saldre,
You have made a detailed analysis of Redcloak's actions. However I'm not basing any assumptions about what he knows about MitD on those actions.

Rather, in the prequel book "Start of Darkness", Redcloak explicity states that he knows what MitD is, to MitD's face.

It's possible he is lying, but we have no reason to believe that. So I wasn't basing the idea that Redcloak knows what MitD is based upon looking in monster books, rather based on what is said in Start of Darkness.

[Saldre]

Oh! Sorry! I should have mentioned Who i was actually actually talking too! It wasnt you, but Wolf's response to Barlen's "RC only partially succeeded a knowledge check to find out what the MitD, getting a name and a few numbers, but the raw data on his abilities".

So i do believe Redcloak knows what the MitD is, but only that. The same way I could know what, hmm, any monster is really without knowing what it does exactly and still be afraid of it.

Example: Everybody knows white dragons are terrifying: because they are dragons, not because they have the ability to control the weather at higher levels.

I also hope this makes sense

[Lord Bingo]

Reading through this entire thread again I'm starting to believe, like some of you, that MitD does not belong in the D&D universe, but rather that he is part of our modern cultural background. Also, I think this talk about possible copyright infringement has been blown way out of proportions.

OOTS reference and poke fun at D&D so much that if you stretch it it could actually be considered a copyright infringement in and of itself. We are, however, contend, as are WotC apparently, that this is fair use. On top of this, every paladin in OOTS summon his or her mount from one of those silly little Pokemon balls/eggs (I'm not into Pokemon, so I don't know what they are called) so obviously Rich isn't too worried about a lawsuit from the japanese either. Basically I think we should do away with the copyright clause concerning the origin of MitD from outside D&D and broaden our search to include characters/creatures from every known and reasonably popular piece of fiction.

[Nerdanel]

I think Redcloak's ignorance supports the template theory. He could have researched the MitD's abilities at his leisure, and probably would have, since he likes to plan ahead. Since Redcloak still thinks the MitD is nothing but a strong and stupid melee monster, he may think he already has discovered everything important by reading the MitD's description in the monster book that has his race.

The thing about invisible templates like Phrenic is that they are invisible. Redcloak can look at a Phrenic Half-Dragon Tarrasque, identify it as a Half-Dragon Tarrasque, and congratulate himself for his fine knowledge check.

[Selene]

Reading through this entire thread again I'm starting to believe, like some of you, that MitD does not belong in the D&D universe, but rather that he is part of our modern cultural background. Also, I think this talk about possible copyright infringement has been blown way out of proportions.

OOTS reference and poke fun at D&D so much that if you stretch it it could actually be considered a copyright infringement in and of itself. We are, however, contend, as are WotC apparently, that this is fair use. On top of this, every paladin in OOTS summon his or her mount from one of those silly little Pokemon balls/eggs (I'm not into Pokemon, so I don't know what they are called) so obviously Rich isn't too worried about a lawsuit from the japanese either. Basically I think we should do away with the copyright clause concerning the origin of MitD from outside D&D and broaden our search to include characters/creatures from every known and reasonably popular piece of fiction.

Do you have any relevant experience with trademark and/or copyright law on which you're basing this? Or are you just wanting to discard an inconvenient problem?

As has been said several times now, there is a difference between a one-off reference, or a joke (e.g. Poke-balls), and using a trademarked property as a main character. Also, OotS is a parody of D&D, not of Pokemon, Disney, LotR, or any other trademarked property. So considering trademark infringement as a problem is not something that can just be discarded. Companies do in fact take their trademarks seriously, and Rich is not going to want to have to pull a bunch of books and have them reprinted because Nintendo or somebody sends him a C&D.

IANAL, but I have had project names rejected for trademark reasons. As an example, I had to rename a package that was called "Snow White and Rose Red," after the Grimm's Fairy Tale, because the legal department at the company where I brokered it thought it might cause a problem with Disney. Note that Disney doesn't specifically own the name Snow White, as they took it from a (different) fairy tale. Nor does the package in any way resemble anything from Disney's Snow White. Nonetheless, legal made my partner and I rename the package to Snow Rose.

[Asta Kask]

Could it be Snuggles the death cat?

[DavidBV]

The full quote is as follows: (bold mine)

The quote tells us that Rich didn't invent MitD - which discards the Snarl, no two ways about it, unless someone finds Snarl in some work that predates OotS. It also tells us that someone else did invent MitD. But, and I feel this is important, Rich considers MitD guessable. If he were as modified as you propose - say, a faun which Rich had modified to have huge strength, insatiable and indiscriminate appetite and ability to teleport - how would that be guessable?


First of all, he talks about a "fine line". So while he has not invented it, probably he has invented it too somehow, otherwise he wouldn't have said that...

Rich stated that "eventually" someone can find out, that doesn't mean it can be found yet.

"Guessable" as you say may mean that we can, by reading the story, find out how such a base creature has gained those powers while still being so silly, and still pass for a mere melee grunt for Redcloak and Xykon.



And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches"


Well, that makes little sense. Precisely because you have found nothing that matches, then a new approach is in order. I mean, comeon, many experts have looked at this for *years* now... and among the "forerunners" there's a monster with two heads and inmune to charm.

I never suggested that you discard anything, as you have stated many times, that list is your personal view on the subject. I was just expressing what I feel may be the truth. I am sorry if this is "inconvenient", as I am sure what many people is expecting is finding an exact match from a DnD book. I think it's obvious now that an exact match does not exist.

Rich talks about a "fine line". So pretty likely yes, a few of those 20-odd characteristics are probably not from the base creature, and are acting as red-herrings. If we had to guess what Bilbo Baggings is from some random behavior facts, we may quickly rule out all creatures without "invisibility at will". Yet it's a Hobbit that due to plot, has found The One Ring. Get what I mean?


And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches". Equally, someone else could simply decide to discard everything under "Physical Characteristics". Or some random combination, picking and choosing. And then, yes, anything fits. But it leaves us exactly were we started: without matching your guess to what actually happens in the strip, there is no way to gauge how appropriate it is.

Well, you pretty much are answering yourself. Instead of that chaos you describe, of random picking, we could use a little brain here. "Escape" is not expected by Redcloak or Xykon, and doesn't look like a Dungeons And Dragons ability, so I would start working from there. "Physical characteristics", on the other hand, we have no reason to suspect, as RedCloak recognized him, as well as the Big Game Hunters, without ever expressing that MiTD has a different appearance from other members of its race.

[Math_Mage]

Well, that means we have a relatively stringent list of constraints on MitD's identity if he's not in D&D, so the question is if there's anything that fits those constraints.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

that list is your personal view on the subject.

Excuse me? The list of characteristics is the agreed conclussion of the old thread, plus the first 10 pages of this one. There is as little of my personal opinion as I can manage. I referenced the strip as often as I could, and dropped everything that had no evidence in its favour. On top of that, I tried to present all the relevant views on the subject for each given characteristic, as evident from the "take into account" sections. That you dismiss what was days of work as "my personal view on the subject" is both dumb and offensive.


I was just expressing what I feel may be the truth. I am sorry if this is "inconvenient", as I am sure what many people is expecting is finding an exact match from a DnD book. I think it's obvious now that an exact match does not exist.
What you "feel" is irrelevant. Please see below how your "feelings" would have led us directly to the wrong avenue of search - indeed a major inconvenience.


Rich talks about a "fine line". So pretty likely yes, a few of those 20-odd characteristics are probably not from the creature type. If we had to guess what Bilbo Baggings is from some random behavior facts, we may quickly rule out all creatures without "invisibility at will". Yet it's a Hobbit that due to plot, has found The One Ring. Get what I mean?
Yes, I understand what you mean. I am unsure you understand what I mean, though. You have decided that by cherry picking the characteristics you feel most comfortable with we can find the correct solution. However, you have no reason to choose those characteristics as opposed to the others, and in your defence all you have is that the full set does not match anything you can think of.

And that is a poor example: Bilbo was never hidden, we never had the author tell us that we could guess what it was, etc. As such, I fail to see how it helps your case. Most people in this thread, I'd assume, are working under the assumption that Rich was not lying to us when he said it was guessable. If it then turns out to be Bilbo with a new magic ring that turns him into MitD, then that is not guessable. And yet by your "method", we could reach that conclusion - you just need to write enough backstory to explain how Bilbo came to be MitD. Since this "method" delivers everything under the sun, 99% of all you suggest will fit and yet be false positives. I don't see that "method" is any good.


Well, you pretty much are answering yourself. Instead of that chaos you describe, of random picking, we could use a little brain here. "Escape" is not expected by Redcloak or Xykon, and doesn't look like a Dungeons And Dragons ability, so I would start working from there. Physical characteristics, we have no reason to suspect, as RedCloak would have noticed.

Ah, yes, what a wonderful method you suggest. If only I had some "brain" to see your magnificent insight. Just discard the escape, you say, and everything will be easier.

Pity we know from Rich's words that MitD did cause the escape. And what a better example of how utterly useless your approach is: you have, off the bat, discarded the most important clue, because you couldn't figure it out. That is exactly what I meant when I suggested your "method" was useless.


Well, that means we have a relatively stringent list of constraints on MitD's identity if he's not in D&D, so the question is if there's anything that fits those constraints.
It doesn't really mean it's not D&D. It is very tricky to find teleportation powers before modern times, funnily enough. In the old times, the concept was completely foreign to their tales. Most heroes, gods, etc. moved around with flaming chariots and winged horses and so on, not just by popping in and out of existence.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

Do you have any relevant experience with trademark and/or copyright law on which you're basing this? Or are you just wanting to discard an inconvenient problem?

I have never actually myself been served with a lawsuit due to copyright infringement, if that is what you mean:smallconfused:

I was merely making an observation, that if Rich was going to be sued over copyright infringements then it would already have happened due to his foray into the world of D&D. I can not for the life of me imagine that anyone would file a lawsuit over copyright issues if MitD turned out to be, say, Batman or Godzilla. Plenty of intellectual property has been and is being referenced and poked fun of without it resulting in a stream of lawsuits. Just look at the number of spoofs on Star Wars, Lord of The Rings, Cthulhu, Marvel and DC comics, etc. There is such a thing as fair use and since MitD is not the main protagonist of the story I sincerely doubt it would pose a problem.

That said, I do consider the copyright issue thing to be an inconvenient problem as well as an unnecessary one. IMO it is not that big of a problem. Any lawsuit as a result of the identity of MitD would never make it to court -even in country where people sue each other left and right:smallbiggrin:

[Silaor]

First poster here so I hope I don't make too much of a fool of myself, but I think the point DavidBV was trying to make by discarding the Escape is that since among the persons who, in-comic, know what the MitD is, none thought that it was responsible for it. We may know, the roaches may know (but anyway they seem to know a lot more thatn anyone else in-comic, except maybe the Oracle), but Redcloak and Xykon don't. That suggest that is not a common ability (or side effect of an ability) for this type of creature, which could put it in the same category as 'speech' or 'jungle habitat' : things that the MitD exhibits, but on which we can't really base our guesses.

And I'll add that even if it wasn't what DavidBV was trying to say, it's still something to consider. Apologies if it was already discussed before, I read the first post and followed this thread on and off but it could have slipped by me.

[Kish]

Unless I'm failing to remember something from Start of Darkness, Xykon's never claimed to know what the creature in the darkness is. So the total list of people who have explicitly claimed to know what he is goes:

Redcloak
One now-dead hobgoblin who answered fan mail

Redcloak's knowledge about the Escape consists of having his boss shout in his face "lotsofwords and then popped out of here without a trace!lotsofwordsPHYLACTERYno you aren't regenerating your eye!" I don't think we should take Redcloak's...priorities in the situation...as indicating that he is unaware that the creature in the darkness is of a species that can, in some fashion, teleport others.

That said, I thought what DavidBV meant was that we should look for outside-of-D&D creatures who can teleport others, not that we should disregard the Escape as irrelevant. To which my response would be: If you have any in mind, let's hear it. If not, let's not privilege non-D&D monsters above D&D monsters, since while no one's proposed a D&D monster that fits perfectly, no one's proposed a non-D&D monster that comes close.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have never actually myself been served with a lawsuit due to copyright infringement, if that is what you mean:smallconfused:
No, what she meant was if you are an IP lawyer. It'd be nice to have a professional opinion on the matter.


I was merely making an observation, that if Rich was going to be sued over copyright infringements then it would already have happened due to his foray into the world of D&D.
His foray is clearly derivative parody. He would have a good case against WotC. Furthermore, WotC makes a living of people creating stories in their system. Yes, most are RPGs, but stories with their creatures are also common. They would have a hard time attacking any of them, since their IP is meant for that purpose.

No, WotC is not the problem party.


I can not for the life of me imagine that anyone would file a lawsuit over copyright issues if MitD turned out to be, say, Batman or Godzilla.
And yet when one browser had godzilla as their icon, they got sued, as has been brought up in this thread before. Do not underestimate the willingness of big companies with idle bored lawyers to defend their intellectual property.


Plenty of intellectual property has been and is being referenced and poked fun of without it resulting in a stream of lawsuits. Just look at the number of spoofs on Star Wars, Lord of The Rings, Cthulhu, Marvel and DC comics, etc. There is such a thing as fair use and since MitD is not the main protagonist of the story I sincerely doubt it would pose a problem.
Two problems: one thing is to parody (or "poke fun of") and another to develop a story around a character. Second, MitD is a main character. Not a main protagonist, but a main antagonist. A lawyer would have little trouble showing how many times he is in the comic, 100% with no parody involved.

And that is the crux of the matter. Illithid appearances, followed by a joke about them being trademarked (and forcibly removed), yes. The cast of FF, in Rich's style, followed by a joke about differences in the RPG systems, dangerous, but ultimately ok. Throwaway gags about pokeballs: good to go.

Putting Mickey Mouse as one of the trio of antagonists of your story, and then sell that for money, and not make fun of the fact he is mickey Mouse? Disney falls on you like a ton of bricks, sues you for all you are worth. They have done it before, they will do so again, and spent billions on politicians to make sure that Mickey remains IP of the company.

Every other major company (square, nintendo, etc) does the exact same thing.

Admittedly, I am not a lawyer. If an IP lawyer comes and tells us otherwise, I will reconsider trademarked-protected characters (and then Snorlax will come back with a vengeance, believe me). But I read quite a bit about IP law when writing the first post, and it is a fine line to walk when doing parody or commentary or other fair uses, and MitD clearly is not covered.


by discarding the Escape is that since among the persons who, in-comic, know what the MitD is, none thought that it was responsible for it. We may know, the roaches may know (but anyway they seem to know a lot more thatn anyone else in-comic, except maybe the Oracle), but Redcloak and Xykon don't. That suggest that is not a common ability (or side effect of an ability) for this type of creature, which could put it in the same category as 'speech' or 'jungle habitat' : things that the MitD exhibits, but on which we can't really base our guesses.

I will not touch what DavidBV meant again without his input. As to your point, Xykon was distracted, and we know he considers MitD a good-for-nothing moron. RC wasn't even in the room, and no-one has really told him what happened. As Kish points out*, we don't really know that Xykon has ever bothered to ask what MitD is (being happy to know he is ugly, hungry and strong). And we have had quite a bit of ideas thrown in about why RC is not making use of MitD's ability to teleport (or whatever it is). Off the top of my head:
- He got a low Knowledge roll, and thus knows only MitD's species, physical abilities but not SLA
- He knows everything he could be capable of, but after trying to get him to do so, and MitD showing his usual incompetence, RC decided he was not powerful (fits particularly well if the SLAs are psionic-based)

Grey Wolf

*Kish did forget two characters that know what MitD is: the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, but that is neither here nor there in this case

[DavidBV]

That you dismiss what was days of work as "my personal view on the subject" is both dumb and offensive.



What you "feel" is irrelevant.



I don't see that "method" is any good.



If only I had some "brain" to see your magnificent insight.

Woah, that was completely uncalled for, I never insulted you in any way, yet you seem ready to take discrepance as a personal challenge. This is your thread, you sometimes take ideas from others and sometimes you don't, as you see fit. Don't try to give it an appearance of democracy or scientific method, because it really isn't either, nor it should be! Nor pretend that, because you invested long hours on it, it can't be questioned.



Yes, I understand what you mean. I am unsure you understand what I mean, though. You have decided that by cherry picking the characteristics you feel most comfortable with we can find the correct solution. However, you have no reason to choose those characteristics as opposed to the others, and in your defence all you have is that the full set does not match anything you can think of.

Cherry picking, you say. Except that I mention in the last paragraph why I choose that. And please, NO ONE is able to think of a full match, not just me.


And that is a poor example: Bilbo was never hidden, we never had the author tell us that we could guess what it was, etc. As such, I fail to see how it helps your case. Most people in this thread, I'd assume, are working under the assumption that Rich was not lying to us when he said it was guessable. If it then turns out to be Bilbo with a new magic ring that turns him into MitD, then that is not guessable. And yet by your "method", we could reach that conclusion - you just need to write enough backstory to explain how Bilbo came to be MitD. Since this "method" delivers everything under the sun, 99% of all you suggest will fit and yet be false positives. I don't see that "method" is any good.

Huh?

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry, honestly. You really think I am saying Biblo is the MiTD or something? What I am saying is that MiTD may have been "blessed" with some skills/powers beyond his common race, as bilbo was, and that "blessing" or "uniqueness" may still be guessable, at some point, as it would be plot related. Remember the "eventually" and "fine line" arguments you purposely ignored?

That is the slowest and easiest I can explain it, and yes, feel free to be offended as this time I really doubt you have been very inspired.


Pity we know from Rich's words that MitD did cause the escape. And what a better example of how utterly useless your approach is: you have, off the bat, discarded the most important clue, because you couldn't figure it out. That is exactly what I meant when I suggested your "method" was useless.

Excuse me???????

You imply that I am saying the MiTD did not cause the Escape, which I have never said (or thought!). MiTD caused Escape, obviously, and I know that since the time I read that strip.

I won't waste any more time dealing with you at all, have a nice trip.



Unless I'm failing to remember something from Start of Darkness, Xykon's never claimed to know what the creature in the darkness is. So the total list of people who have explicitly claimed to know what he is goes:

Redcloak
One now-dead hobgoblin who answered fan mail

Redcloak's knowledge about the Escape consists of having his boss shout in his face "lotsofwords and then popped out of here without a trace!lotsofwordsPHYLACTERYno you aren't regenerating your eye!" I don't think we should take Redcloak's...priorities in the situation...as indicating that he is unaware that the creature in the darkness is of a species that can, in some fashion, teleport others.

That said, I thought what DavidBV meant was that we should look for outside-of-D&D creatures who can teleport others, not that we should disregard the Escape as irrelevant. To which my response would be: If you have any in mind, let's hear it. If not, let's not privilege non-D&D monsters above D&D monsters, since while no one's proposed a D&D monster that fits perfectly, no one's proposed a non-D&D monster that comes close.

Well, don't forget the Big Game hunters, they, too, know.

And Xykon? Well, my guess is it's logical that he asked Redcloak. Or at least he would want to have the information of what it can do. He usually uses every resource to his advantage, and I am not sure but I seem to remember that at some point he called the MiTD to be "formidable".

Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting creature in a cage, without any supervision. A very childish and silly creature that is capable of casting 9-ish level spells or SLA's is a danger if it's not under complete control, and in fact see what happened with Escape.

My gut is, it IS a D&D base creature, but some of its powers, and certainly Escape, don't come from its racial base, but from some plot-related even that goes back to its origins. It may be guessable, quoting Rich, Eventually, how it acquired such powers. That's why Redcloak and Xykon treats him like just a big strong monster.

[Grugnar]

I'm definately thinking he's from a setting outside of D&D. Or at least outside of core. If he is from D&D, it'll be from one of the older settings, like Darksun or something. That, or from a well known but non-D&D fantasy setting, like Lord of the Rings. How about a young Balrog or something? They're powerful, don't talk, and are draped in shadows (not flames).

[Kish]

Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting mob in a cage.
I'm quite certain that whatever he is, he's not a mob (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html).

[DavidBV]

I'm quite certain that whatever he is, he's not a mob (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html).

LOL, you got me, too many Everquest years are hard to forget :)

Edited.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Woah, that was completely uncalled for, I never insulted you in any way,
Neither have I insulted you, only criticised your method, just as you made derogatory comments about both my ability to understand you and the rational basis of this thread.


Huh?

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry, honestly. You really think I am saying Biblo is the MiTD or something? What I am saying is that MiTD may have been "blessed" with some skills/powers beyond his common race, as bilbo was, and that "blessing" or "uniqueness" may still be guessable, at some point, as it would be plot related. Remember the "eventually" and "fine line" arguments you purposely ignored?

No, I think you have no idea what MitD is. Which is not the problem. The problem is the "method" or "logic" you are suggesting: discarding evidence and saying that "the backstory will account for the abilities it cannot posses". I have told you, now for the third time, that such "method" is useless, since it can apply to anything. Bilbo with a magical ring. Sauron with a magical ring. A faun with an interesting backstory. A potted plant that was in the path of the wrong kind of spell. The son of Alternate Reality Xykon with Future Haley, sent back into the past. Etc, ad nauseam. It tells us nothing, it gives us nothing, it provides no useful avenues of research, and there is no way to discard any alternative, because it is unconstrained. There are 26 "one-off" ideas in the first post. Each and every one of them could fit as MitD given enough backstory like the one you suggest. And that is why what you suggest is useless.


Excuse me???????

You imply that I am saying the MiTD did not cause the Escape, which I have never said (or thought!). MiTD caused Escape, obviously, and I know that since the time I read that strip.

Yes, you did suggest it, by extension of your method. Don't like the escape? Bah, don't consider it, must be backstory. Your creature is too big? Ignore it, think some amusing backstory.

Dread Linnorm has major problems fitting as MitD because it has two heads, which could be as simple as a mis-encounter with an axe. And yet. I don't pretend to sweep it under the rug.

Yes, maybe there will be in the future some backstory that explains how he caused the escape. Or why he is so small. Or how he can crack the earth with a half-hearted stomp. And then, and only then, will it be logical to consider such thing as part of the evidence. Until then, "making up his backstory so it fits" remains a fruitless avenue of enquiry.


Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting mob in a cage. A very silly creature that is capable of casting 9-ish level spells or SLA is a danger if it's not under complete control, and in fact see what happened with Escape.

Rich already hang a lampshade on that fact. From the very first scene, MitD has always been capable of escaping every box he's been put in - including the one RC had to drag onto a cart to rescue him from the circus. It is MitD's personality, and not his powers, that keeps him in the boxes, under the umbrella, etc. Regardless of whether RC knows or not MitDs full capabilities, which as far as I am concerned is an open question as of this moment.

Grey Wolf

[Asta Kask]

I'm definately thinking he's from a setting outside of D&D. Or at least outside of core. If he is from D&D, it'll be from one of the older settings, like Darksun or something. That, or from a well known but non-D&D fantasy setting, like Lord of the Rings. How about a young Balrog or something? They're powerful, don't talk, and are draped in shadows (not flames).

They are also copyrighted. And the Tolkiens are very touchy about their IP.

[hamishspence]

Which, I think, came up way back in very early D&D editions.

That's why we now have Balors, Treants, and Halflings.

[Gift Jeraff]

Putting Mickey Mouse as one of the trio of antagonists of your story, and then sell that for money, and not make fun of the fact he is mickey Mouse? Disney falls on you like a ton of bricks, sues you for all you are worth. They have done it before, they will do so again, and spent billions on politicians to make sure that Mickey remains IP of the company.
Mickey Mouse was actually a pretty evil villain on an episode of South Park.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which, I think, came up way back in very early D&D editions.

That's why we now have Balors, Treants, and Halflings.

And only because of prior art we don't also have "shortlings" for dwarves and "pointy-earling" for elves, I'm sure. Yes, the Tolkiens are a tad unreasonable about what JRR made up, and it is a sad testament to how twisted IP laws are that concepts like hobbits have not been allowed to become part of folklore, and very much, I believe, against JRR's wishes of creating a British mythology.


Mickey Mouse was actually a pretty evil villain on an episode of South Park.
Don't watch SP, but isn't it pretty much a parody of (whatever is in the episode)? Did they make fun of Disney? Mind you, just by turning goody-two-shoes Mickey into an evil villain is pretty much parody already...

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Its more the names, than the creatures themselves. I don't think Hobbit had been used as a name before Tolkien- but I do recall small humans that were very like hobbits in Robin Hood stories, among other things.

The concept of small, secretive human tribes has been around for a very long time.

[Watcher]

Why did MitD's music (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)?

[hamishspence]

Maybe it's the difference between whistling and singing?

Sabines' also shows a coloured note- but hers is red rather than purple.

[Watcher]

And Elan's (http://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html) whistle note is the same as his normal color, green.

Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) is light brown, though, so it's probably not racial.

[Kish]

And Xykon? Well, my guess is it's logical that he asked Redcloak.
This hinges on two variables.
1) Xykon's decision whether to ask Redcloak:
a. "Redcloak, tell me everything you know about him."
b. "Redcloak, tell me what he is."
c. "It would be humiliating to admit I don't know what he is."
d. "It would be potentially dangerous to let Redcloak know I don't know what that monster is."
e. "All I need to know is that he's really powerful, and it will be suitably dramatic to have him eat the protagonists when they show up."

Xykon isn't as stupid as he sometimes acts, but some people take a fact like that and expect him to be full-on David Xanatos. He's still intellectually lazy, and finds worrying about details annoying--and he's very touchy about suggestions that he's stupid. Conversely, he's smart enough to know that showing his vulnerabilities to Redcloak is dangerous.

2) Redcloak's answer, if the Xykon condition was met.
a. Full gushing disclosure.
b. "I don't know, Lord Xykon, but he certainly is powerful."
c. Something close enough to give Redcloak plausible deniability if Xykon ever finds out that it's not true.
d. The name of the creature's species, and, maybe, some of its abilities; not all.

aa or ba are certainly possible, but neither is certain.

[hamishspence]

Most of the times I've seen musical notes outside speech bubbles, they've been green- even when it's been neither Elan nor the Monster singing. Such as the cherubim when Roy's getting into Celestia.

Here is about the only exception I can think of- blue, rather than green:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html

[Watcher]

Most of the times I've seen musical notes outside speech bubbles, they've been green- even when it's been neither Elan nor the Monster singing. Such as the cherubim when Roy's getting into Celestia.

Here is about the only exception I can think of- blue, rather than green:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html

Thog. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

Edit: and Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why did MitD's music (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)?

Maybe it indicates pitch? Or musical style?

My guess it's just whatever colour was handy to Rich.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

I wonder if there is a pattern?

Elan and the cherubim having similar colour wouldn't fit very well if colour was based on alignment, though.

And unless the monster has had an alignment change, it would be odd for its notes in earlier scenes to be similar to Thogs.

[Lord Bingo]

As uninterested as Xykon appears to be about everyone and anything but his own immediate goals I don't think he gives a flying f... what MitD actually is, being fully satisfied that he is scary and strong.

[Timberboar]

Neither have I insulted you, only criticised your method, just as you made derogatory comments about both my ability to understand you and the rational basis of this thread.

Yeah, you totally didn't belittle him. Also: the sky is pink.


No, I think you have no idea what MitD is. Which is not the problem. The problem is the "method" or "logic" you are suggesting: discarding evidence and saying that "the backstory will account for the abilities it cannot posses".

Your high and mighty-ness aside, it may be more likely than you think.

Who here would put it past Rich to throw out a few Red Herrings? I seem to recall him having mentioned doing exactly that in one of the commentaries, but I may be making that up.

Does that make it possible to guess? Sure. But only if you're willing to discard bad data.

Sifting the good from the bad? Well, that's a problem.

[averagejoe]

Don't watch SP, but isn't it pretty much a parody of (whatever is in the episode)? Did they make fun of Disney? Mind you, just by turning goody-two-shoes Mickey into an evil villain is pretty much parody already...

I only vaguely remember the episode, but Micky was the over-the-top evil mastermind of a villainous plot that involved the Jonas Brothers. Either way, the portrayal of Micky, and Disney, easily fit into parody, just like when SP does anything.


Your high and mighty-ness aside, it may be more likely than you think.

Who here would put it past Rich to throw out a few Red Herrings? I seem to recall him having mentioned doing exactly that in one of the commentaries, but I may be making that up.

Does that make it possible to guess? Sure. But only if you're willing to discard bad data.

Sifting the good from the bad? Well, that's a problem.

I've been following thread 2 since it started, and I am quite surprised by how many people have mistaken logical rigor for intellectual superiority. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose...

You mention sifting the good from the bad as a problem; you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. If there is bad data, then it needs some way to stand apart from the good data, otherwise the MitD doesn't fit the guessable criteria. Saying that some data is bad, but we have no way of telling the good from the bad, or even how much of it is bad, is the same thing as saying we have no data. If someone would give a reason why certain data should be preferred over others then perhaps a discussion could be had about the viability of this. However, with no reason to prefer any data over any other data, all you're saying is that we know nothing about the MitD, something that I, at least, am not willing to accept. Rich could have been lying about the monster being guessable, but I do like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[DavidBV]

If someone would give a reason why certain data should be preferred over others then perhaps a discussion could be had about the viability of this.

I will try, if you allow me to.

1)Redcloak knows what MiTD is.
2)Big Game hunters know what MiTD is.

None of them have ever expressed anything odd about MiTD appearance. Big Game hunters where surprised that it could talk, but, for example, if it was missing one head (dread linnorm) probably we should have heard it from them. So everything related to being a strong, ugly(yet beautiful) carnivore shouldn't be ruled out.

On the other side, the various captors of this creature don't seem to place him under magical wards to prevent its casting abilities. That would be a big oversight from Redcloak, and very unlike him.

Now we have to ask ourselves, would Redcloak be surprised if he learned that MiTD has such a powerful ability as Escape? would he be surprised to know how smart he is regarding rituals? that would prove those are not racial abilities, but plot-gained abilities that make MiTD unique. We have no evidence as Rich has in both cases placed Redcloak out of the scene, but my belief is that he would be very, very surprised if he knew that MiTD has such a powerful skill at his disposal. If, in the future, we see Redcloak surprised about this, we will be certain about those two being "red herrings" regarding MiTD race.

[averagejoe]

Now we have to ask ourselves, would Redcloak be surprised if he learned that MiTD has such a powerful ability as Escape? would he be surprised to know how smart he is regarding rituals? that would prove those are not racial abilities, but plot-gained abilities that make MiTD unique. We have no evidence as Rich has in both cases placed Redcloak out of the scene, but my belief is that he would be very, very surprised if he knew that MiTD has such a powerful skill at his disposal. If, in the future, we see Redcloak surprised about this, we will be certain about those two being "red herrings" regarding MiTD race.

See, this is where it all falls apart. As you've admitted, it pretty much boils down to because you think so. However, to tackle other aspects of your argument:

You mention magical wards to prevent casting. However, he really isn't a captive of Xykon, he's a minion. At no point have we seen evidence that he wants to leave but can't. Forget casting, that box shouldn't be able to physically restrain him. I can't remember SoD well enough to comment on the Big Game Hunters, but the monster has so far been going along with X and R by choice.

[Shale]

The other possibility is that MitD's race usually has those abilities, but Redcloak assumes that MitD himself can't use them because, to the best of Team Evil's knowledge, he hasn't done so ever. Really, has the MitD ever given them any reason to overestimate him?

[DavidBV]

See, this is where it all falls apart. As you've admitted, it pretty much boils down to because you think so.


Well, that's the problem with theories. Mine doesn't come out of nowhere, I think it has some basis, but I am the first to admit it doesn't come from straight evidence. Just like Evolution theory :)

We're getting almost a new clue per week now, so probably soon we will find out if I'm at a dead end or actually on track.



You mention magical wards to prevent casting. However, he really isn't a captive of Xykon, he's a minion. At no point have we seen evidence that he wants to leave but can't. Forget casting, that box shouldn't be able to physically restrain him. I can't remember SoD well enough to comment on the Big Game Hunters, but the monster has so far been going along with X and R by choice.

I agree on MiTD not wanting to escape, but they want him confined most of the time nonetheless, probably so it doesn't mess with anything. And they confined him only physically. See how not warding him for casting has screwed Xykon with the Escape incident... if Redcloak really knows that MiTD race has such powers and he has neglected such a threat, then he has been an idiot.

[Timberboar]

You mention sifting the good from the bad as a problem; you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. If there is bad data, then it needs some way to stand apart from the good data, otherwise the MitD doesn't fit the guessable criteria.

Please don't read too much into the Giant's quote regarding it being possible to guess.

I'm going to guess that the MITD is, in fact, a kobold. Does that go against just about every single bit of data this thread and its predecessor has managed to collate?

Certainly. But it's still possible to guess a kobold (Proof: I just did), so it fits the Giant's given criteria of being guessable.

Conclusion: That "hint" is meaningless. "Guessable" is too broad to mean anything.

But that's neither here nor there. You can hide behind the facade of logical rigor and the scientific method, but rudeness is rudeness. You can dismiss or disprove someone's theories without mocking them, or point out fallacies without passive-aggressively calling them an idiot.

[Selene]

No, what she meant was if you are an IP lawyer. It'd be nice to have a professional opinion on the matter.

Yes, thank you. That is what I meant. I would also like to hear from an IP lawyer if one happens to be around. I'm just going by the way IP law and the Berne Convention have been explained to me by various copyright agents and fellow brokers.


Well, that's the problem with theories. Mine doesn't come out of nowhere, I think it has some basis, but I am the first to admit it doesn't come from straight evidence. Just like Evolution theory :)

You know what? Don't even go there, because I suspect that forum rules prevent proper refutation of that analogy. But evolutionary theory is most definitely evidence-based.

[Joerg]

That's why we now have Balors, Treants, and Halflings.
So why can't the MitD be a "Snarlox"? Or something with some entirely different name, which looks similar to a Snorlax (in stick-figure art) and has the same properties as a Snorlax?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So why can't the MitD be a "Snarlox"? Or something with some entirely different name, which looks similar to a Snorlax (in stick-figure art) and has the same properties as a Snorlax?

That is a good question. As far as I know (and again, remember I'm not a lawyer), there is a short answer and a long answer. The short answer is that Nintendo has far more lawyers than the Tolkiens.

The long answer is that using that kind of trick is a very dangerous ground to tread. Remember that this would be argued in front of a judge, and if "Snarlox" is similar enough, that would give good grounds for Nintendo to sue. If it was not similar enough, then it wouldn't be recognisable and you might as well use your own invented glutton instead. If OotS was a hobby for Rich, this would probably be acceptable, but one he started selling it for money, such distinctions are important, and a wise person simply stears clear of the whole mess.

Could Rich have done something along those lines? I find it very unlikely. Rich has not shown any tendencies along those lines; he clearly prefers calling a spade a spade, and if that gets close to IP infringement, then he makes a joke of it and moves on.


You know what? Don't even go there, because I suspect that forum rules prevent proper refutation of that analogy. But evolutionary theory is most definitely evidence-based.

Seconded. I've been dealing with creationists close to a decade now, and the one thing I've learnt is that there is no scientific theory with more hard evidence than the ToE. DavidBV's affirmation has given me a good insight into his head, though.

Grey Wolf

[DavidBV]

So why can't the MitD be a "Snarlox"? Or something with some entirely different name, which looks similar to a Snorlax (in stick-figure art) and has the same properties as a Snorlax?

He could probably get away with it, but certainly the risk is great, specially in the US where laws are more strict.

On the other hand, he *may* have been authorized to use a copyrighted character, that happens all the time. So I really doubt the copyright stuff is a hint at all.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The main problem with MitD being a Snorlax or anything similar to a Pokemon is that whatever it's identity is, it's going to be a major plot point, not something Rich would waste for a joke.

[DavidBV]

The main problem with MitD being a Snorlax or anything similar to a Pokemon is that whatever it's identity is, it's going to be a major plot point, not something Rich would waste for a joke.

I agree with this. So far, when Rich has added something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) (page 2), it's just a joke and can be removed from the story with no effect on the plot. I would be very surprised if MiTD "revelation" would be such a thing, and why not, disappointed.

[Lord Bingo]

Please don't read too much into the Giant's quote regarding it being possible to guess.

I'm going to guess that the MITD is, in fact, a kobold. Does that go against just about every single bit of data this thread and its predecessor has managed to collate?

Certainly. But it's still possible to guess a kobold (Proof: I just did), so it fits the Giant's given criteria of being guessable.

Conclusion: That "hint" is meaningless. "Guessable" is too broad to mean anything.

I'd actually like to believe that by "guessable" Rich meant: "possible to arrive at through evidence based deduction".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd actually like to believe that by "guessable" Rich meant: "possible to arrive at through evidence based deduction".

I like to think so too; indeed, one would presume that is the belief of anyone participating in this thread. If it is not possible to deduce what MitD is from the clues dropped by Rich, then what we are doing here is foolish, and anyone that believes that by closing their eyes, and opening a monster manual at a random page is as likely to gets us the solution as by carefully deducing from the evidence has no real business in a thread such as this one.

Which is not to say that the clues will lead us easily or quickly to the correct conclusion. There are a number of assumptions that come from parsing a stick webcomic for clues which may have led us to posit a characteristic that we should not have. Future comics may lead us to revisit any of the starting clues; indeed, it has happened already a few times (as with his ability to see in the darkness or lack thereof). Which is not the same as saying "the clues are useless because I can't think of anything that fits them, and so any guess is as good as any other".

Grey Wolf

[Timberboar]

... (A)nyone that believes that ... has no real business in a thread such as this one.

On the contrary, I believe a new perspective might be helpful.

The problem with the method you're using is that we have no real way of telling the clues from the red herrings and no way of discerning the hints from the gags. As a result, we're left with a list of criteria that is almost certainly not 100% trustworthy. If it were... well, if any online community could have ferreted out the answer by now, I have faith that it would have been this one.

In light of that, throwing out theories because they don't match one or two criteria seems inherently flawed. To make matters worse, we have no real way of verifying if we ever hit upon the answer until such time as the big reveal.

I think time would be better spent not looking for a definitive answer, but rather cataloging the likelihood of each theory.

For example, let's look at two guesses proposed in this thread. (Examples are for argument's sake. I did not do the research to properly quantify each's likelihood.)

1) The dread linnorm: Matches 78% of criteria (or however much). Somewhat likely.
2) Kobold: Matches 2% of criteria. Highly unlikely.

Using this method, we can quantify each theory and update them as new data becomes available, always having an up-to-date picture of each-and-every popular theory.

[Silaor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we're trying to guess what species the MitD is. We know it has unusual traits for a member of this species. Any clue we see can't be counted as characteristic of his species until it's stated one way or the other.

I mean, we're using the fact that it can talk and it shouldn't ... That it was found in a part of the world it should be rare (it could mean "in this environment", it could mean "on this continent"). It's ugly yet strangely appealing. It should be more scary than Xykon, whatever that means (we don't know it means CR. I agree it's probably it, but I aknowledge it may mean something else).

We don't know that members of its species can typically cause earthquakes (Roaches' knowledge can be explained by prior experience), much less Escape. I'm not discounting these because they're hard to fit, I just think they're less important because we don't know if they're relevant. I'd prefer if we could find something that fits everything, but if we can't find it, I'll prefer something that fits the facts, and not an assumptions :

Fact : the MitD caused the Escape - Assumption : it is of a species who can duplicate that effect.
Fact : Xykon thinks the MitD should be the scariest thing in the tower - Assumption : It means that his CR his greater than the Silver Dragon's.

Most of the interpretations in this thread and in the summary of the first one seem reasonable, and I agree with them. But it's not because I can't think of another explanation that there isn't one, so I'm more likely to accept something that fits everything except Escape than something that fits everything except Number of Heads.

In short, maybe we should separate clues relevant to the Mitd's species (what it is) and to the MitD's individuality (who he is).

If we want to guess more about who he is, we should take into account that the strange circumstances that allow him to speak "in Common, no less" and that placed him in "this part of the world" can also probably explain why he has those powers, Occam's Razor, guessability (is that an actual word ?) and all.

[Kish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we're trying to guess what species the MitD is. We know it has unusual traits for a member of this species. Any clue we see can't be counted as characteristic of his species until it's stated one way or the other.
Then we cannot possibly figure out what he is, Rich's line about it being possible to guess is a weird mind game at best, and this is entirely pointless.

Somehow, I don't think a premise that leads to that conclusion is a good one.

My cat adds, 74444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 4444444444

[Timberboar]

Then we cannot possibly figure out what he is, Rich's line about it being possible to guess is a weird mind game at best, and this is entirely pointless.

You can dismiss that possibility (bad science) or you can account for it (good science).

[Schadrach]

Presuming it was published early enough (or it existed in a previous edition, in some book I don't personally have), I'm still liking an Ephemeral Hangman with the Phrenic template (which as I understand doesn't physically change it's appearance) and it's hit dice advanced until at least the bottom of the range where it grows to Huge. It seems to cover all (or at least more than most of the suggestions) of the requirements.

Quick attempt at throwing together a stat block for such a creature, bear with me, I may have made one or more errors.

Monster in the Dark (Advanced Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman)

Huge Aberration (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 23d8+161 (265 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30'
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +11 natural)
Attack: Tendril +26 (2d6+10 plus slow)
Full Attack: 4 Tendrils +26 (2d6+10 plus slow) and bite +23 (2d8+5 plus slow)
Space/Reach: 10'/10' (20' with tendrils in shadowy illumination or darkness)
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+10 plus slow, improved grab, slow, Psi-like abilities
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60', darkvision 60', regeneration 5, shadow pocket, step into shadow, naturally psionic, PR 33,
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 20
Skill Points: 46
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (Tendril), plus 4 additional
Environment: Any underground or urban
Organization: Solitary
CR: 14
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil

Psi-likes are from the phrenic template. The regeneration is in effect whenever the creature is in darkness or shadowy illumination, except versus spells with the [Light] descriptor. Shadow pocket lets it fit in a single 5' square so long as it is in shadowy illumination or darkness. They only speak under rarely, and when they do it's in Undercommon. They also prefer eating the small and weak, especially babies (making the baby eating bit in the comic an actual attempt to give him something he'd like, and his being...unusual making him not like it).

Biggest issues I see are mental stats not matching what is assumed and it's CR being a touch low. There is room to advance it another 10 HD, if needed (but I figured that accounted for daddy being bigger).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In light of that, throwing out theories because they don't match one or two criteria seems inherently flawed.
We don't throw out anything because it doesn't match all the clues. That is why there is a list of everything that has been minimally defended.

But of course, you are not talking about individual suggestion getting "thrown out" - you are referring to the spat I had with DavidBV - but I cannot defend my actions without violating board rules, so I will only say this: one thing is to accept that your suggestion doesn't match all the clues, and another to simply dismiss anything you can't match as "will be provided by some backstory we will be told in the future", and furthermore suggest that such approach is better than methodological rationality.


I think time would be better spent not looking for a definitive answer, but rather cataloging the likelihood of each theory.

For example, let's look at two guesses proposed in this thread. (Examples are for argument's sake. I did not do the research to properly quantify each's likelihood.)

1) The dread linnorm: Matches 78% of criteria (or however much). Somewhat likely.
2) Kobold: Matches 2% of criteria. Highly unlikely.

Using this method, we can quantify each theory and update them as new data becomes available, always having an up-to-date picture of each-and-every popular theory.

No, using this method all you get is people disagreeing about percentages. The division between "forerunners" and "one-off" that I did is already fraught with subjectivity, with people complaining that members of one listing or the other be moved; it would be so much worse if someone (me? you? the person proposing it?) had to assign a number to each suggestion.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we're trying to guess what species the MitD is. We know it has unusual traits for a member of this species. Any clue we see can't be counted as characteristic of his species until it's stated one way or the other.
Then we have no clues. None at all. Take the ones you suggested: speech and environment. They may be clues as to his species (can't talk, doesn't live in jungle), or they may not be (it's a baby, and thus too young to talk; it's a bird, that flies south for the winter). If we discard every clue because we cannot be completely certain it applies to the species, we have nothing. Maybe this approach in another circumstance could work, but this is a comic, Rich is not going to break the fourth wall to tell us "MitD's species is (such and such)" - so we have to remain flexible in interpreting the clues.


Most of the interpretations in this thread and in the summary of the first one seem reasonable, and I agree with them. But it's not because I can't think of another explanation that there isn't one, so I'm more likely to accept something that fits everything except Escape than something that fits everything except Number of Heads.
And yet both are of equal weight. It is as likely that MitD can teleport because he is a freak for his species (that can't teleport anyone) as that he is a freak for having only one head (when his species usually has two).

Equally likely, I say, because in absence of evidence, one is reduced to Okham's razor: the theory that requires the fewest assumption is more likely to be correct. Now, you want to suggest that MitD is a faun, who got blessed by Dionysus and got powers to create earthquakes and teleport, in exchange for a huge appetite? Go right ahead; but don't be surprised when people don't like it, since while it fits all the clues, it is doing so by positing a backstory we have never been hinted at.


In short, maybe we should separate clues relevant to the Mitd's species (what it is) and to the MitD's individuality (who he is).
If you think that can be done, go ahead and try. But even the most basic clues, I'd be very surprised if we could really tell they're unique to MitD or general to his species, except his general innocence and ignorance, which seem to be MitD-specific.


You can dismiss that possibility (bad science) or you can account for it (good science).

You have them the wrong way around. Assuming that the creator can screw with you is bad science: e.g. gravity works because angels push you down, leaving the possibility that if the Supreme Being wants it to, you can float into the air.

Obviously, the basic rule of good science is a little more shaky when the Creator is Rich Burlew, but like in the Real World, you can only hope that he is consistent and not out to mess with your head, because otherwise every single clue might just be him messing with your head, and they are no more likely than a random guess.

Grey Wolf

[Timberboar]

But of course, you are not talking about individual suggestion getting "thrown out" - you are referring to the spat I had with DavidBV - but I cannot defend my actions without violating board rules

Actually, I had moved past that and attempted to contribute to the thread as a whole by suggesting an alternate method of tallying data -- one based less on absolutes, and more on probabilities.

But I get the impression that any ideas that violate the groupthink are unwelcome here, so I shall leave you to your "progress."

Have fun fumbling around in the dark.

[DavidBV]

But I get the impression that any ideas that violate the groupthink are unwelcome here, so I shall leave you to your "progress."


It's probably wisest course of action. I will be gone too.

[averagejoe]

Please don't read too much into the Giant's quote regarding it being possible to guess.

I believe I'd already mentioned such a possibility. However, in the end, certain assumptions must be taken for discussion to be of any use. If we do not assume that it is possible to discover the identity with such reasoning, then any guessing method applied will be just as valid, so we might as well use this one.


I think time would be better spent not looking for a definitive answer, but rather cataloging the likelihood of each theory.

Grey Wolf already did, he just didn't attach numbers to them.

Honestly, I'm open to the possibilities but, and I'm saying this as someone with no stake in this thread, egotistical or otherwise, you have yet to provide anything more persuasive than, "Because I think so." If that comes off as harsh or mean, well, sorry, but I don't know how to act except to call 'em as I see 'em.

...

EVERYBODY GROUPTHINK!

http://webspace.webring.com/people/bw/weltschmied/groupthink.gif

[Skorj]

I will try, if you allow me to.

1)Redcloak knows what MiTD is.
2)Big Game hunters know what MiTD is.

None of them have ever expressed anything odd about MiTD appearance. Big Game hunters where surprised that it could talk, but, for example, if it was missing one head (dread linnorm) probably we should have heard it from them. So everything related to being a strong, ugly(yet beautiful) carnivore shouldn't be ruled out.

On the other side, the various captors of this creature don't seem to place him under magical wards to prevent its casting abilities. That would be a big oversight from Redcloak, and very unlike him.

Now we have to ask ourselves, would Redcloak be surprised if he learned that MiTD has such a powerful ability as Escape? would he be surprised to know how smart he is regarding rituals? that would prove those are not racial abilities, but plot-gained abilities that make MiTD unique. We have no evidence as Rich has in both cases placed Redcloak out of the scene, but my belief is that he would be very, very surprised if he knew that MiTD has such a powerful skill at his disposal. If, in the future, we see Redcloak surprised about this, we will be certain about those two being "red herrings" regarding MiTD race.

Because of the data you've cited, I think the probablility is quite high that the MitD is physically normal for his species (perhaps a youth of his species) but mentally abnormal in a way that's not too attention getting, such that Redcloak has missed it. It just doesn't seem possible that Redcloak knew that the MitD had this "Escape" power.

A little less certain, because it's a joke, is the MitDs inability to see the gate. Xy and RC seemed to expect him to be able to see the gate. To me that means either (a) it's just a joke about his low Spot skill, or (b) the MitD has some inability to see the gate that "came with" whatever makes him special. As the MitD seems to typify low WIS / high INT, I can't rule (a) out, but it just seems odd for a running gag.

Creatures with high INT but low WIS are extremely rare - we've probably examined every possibility. He seems to have just made a pretty difficult spellcrat roll (DC 20 + spell level), so he either has really high INT, or naturally has Spellcraft.

Finally, why the heck is he kept in a box? They trust him enough to let him roam around some of the time, so it's not a cage. If the box makes him more comfortable, we add "damaged by bright light" to his qualities, but we don't quite have enough evidence.

[Shale]

Because of the data you've cited, I think the probablility is quite high that the MitD is physically normal for his species (perhaps a youth of his species) but mentally abnormal in a way that's not too attention getting, such that Redcloak has missed it. It just doesn't seem possible that Redcloak knew that the MitD had this "Escape" power.

Why not? Why can't he just have written off any chance of MitD ever figuring out how to use it, if for no other reason than that he's duller than a bag of hammers?

[Schadrach]

Finally, why the heck is he kept in a box? They trust him enough to let him roam around some of the time, so it's not a cage. If the box makes him more comfortable, we add "damaged by bright light" to his qualities, but we don't quite have enough evidence.

That is actually one of the reasons I favor the ephemeral hangman. Being in shadowy illumination or darkness lets his Huge self fit comfortably inside a 5' square, and half that if he squeezes. It would also double his reach (for Escape to be teleport it's range touch, and 20' reach makes touching them as far away as they weer more reasonable) and give him regeneration.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That is actually one of the reasons I favor the ephemeral hangman. Being in shadowy illumination or darkness lets his Huge self fit comfortably inside a 5' square, and half that if he squeezes. It would also double his reach (for Escape to be teleport it's range touch, and 20' reach makes touching them as far away as they weer more reasonable) and give him regeneration.

Updated first post up to page 20. Included Ephemeral hangman both in the one-off and the template section, amongst several others. If I was to propose a template stack, I think the ephemeral hangmen is a much better place to start than Tarrasque. Maybe a paragon phrenic ephemeral hangman of legend, to boost its power (note I know nothing of templates, and thus make no promises such combination is even possible).

By the way, lothos, I blatantly ripped your description of teleportation options and gave it its own section, just because it was too good not to use somehow. I also gave you credit in the version history. However, it's not a straight quote, since I did modify what you wrote to adapt it to the general style of the post, and other some extra points here and there, so if you have any objections to what I did, let me know.

Grey Wolf

[Math_Mage]

I've said this before, and I don't know if it's been covered, but since Redcloak wasn't around when MitD pulled his Escape, and Xykon wasn't exactly in a talkative mood, Redcloak might not even know anything about how the prisoners got away, at least not enough to put two and two together. Between that and what Shale said about Redcloak's dismissal of MitD, it's actually possible that Redcloak knows about the ability, but hasn't connected it to the disappearance of the prisoners.

[Nerdanel]

The Pseudonatural template is another one that could explain the reaction of the audience at the circus with its alternate form. The drawbacks are +10 to wisdom when we really need very low wisdom (but it could have been drained) and spell resistance of HD times 5. So for example, a pseudonatural tarrasque with 20 HD would have spell resistance 100, which should have been impossible for Xykon to get through.

So I think Pseudonatural really isn't good after all, unless you use a creature with a small amount of hitdice... Even something weak like one of the wish-granting genies is pushing it.

The Paragon template can be added on top of an ephemeral hangman to beef it up, but aberrations cannot be "of Legend". Only animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids can.

Spellcraft is Trained Only. Thus the MitD must have that skill, or possibly Psicraft if the transparency works that way. We should check which monsters have ranks in Spellcraft.

Here are the monsters with spellcraft from the epic part of the SRD:

Atropal: +84
Infernal: +49
Phane: +46
Xixecal: +76
Demilich: +36
Sample Force Dragon: +68
Sample Prismatic Dragon: +86
Ha-Naga: +37
Hunefer: +57
Mercane: +15
Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collector): +40
Titan, Elder: +90
Uvuudaum: +56
Worm That Walks: +28

Nothing particularly good here. Notably, neither the Dream Larva nor the Protean has any Spellcraft.

[TriForce]

Actually, I had moved past that and attempted to contribute to the thread as a whole by suggesting an alternate method of tallying data -- one based less on absolutes, and more on probabilities.

But I get the impression that any ideas that violate the groupthink are unwelcome here, so I shall leave you to your "progress."

Have fun fumbling around in the dark.

ah please, get over yourself
the only "contribution" ive seen you make is the statement that some hints might be false. now since this thread is about guessing what the monster is, that statement doesnt really help unless you know of a way to show us wich ones are false and wich are not. and also, if there are false hints in there, you would expect conflicting hints to appear sooner or later, and as far as i know, for 600 strips, its all been pretty consistant (altough vague) the rest are just your statements of how we are looking at this wrong (at best) or just trying to induce a flamewar (at worse) so forgive for saying your contribution has not been THAT valuable

Now on the the regular program:
about the snorlax copyright problem, what if rich will only reveal the monster in one ( the last) strip, and makes the fact that its a snorlax as part of the joke of that strip. Is it still considered a copyright violation?, or will it then be considered a parody?, becouse even tough the monster is there for the entire comic, the actual copyrighted creature is only used in one strip

[Nimrod's Son]

If Rich is purposefully saving a Pokemon joke for the very last strip of his epic saga, it'd better be a damn good one, that's all I'm sayin'.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

about the snorlax copyright problem, what if rich will only reveal the monster in one ( the last) strip, and makes the fact that its a snorlax as part of the joke of that strip. Is it still considered a copyright violation?, or will it then be considered a parody?, becouse even tough the monster is there for the entire comic, the actual copyrighted creature is only used in one strip

Properly done, yes, this could be it. Not necessarily on the last strip of the comic, but in the last strip of MitD: he uncloaks, joke happens, lawyers come in and drag him away.

But ask yourself: is Rich really building up the suspense for something like that? Going beyond what Nimrod's Son mention of likely disappointment - let's assume it is the greatest joke ever, combining IP, nintendo, videogames and OCD of collecting in one grand package of laughs.

Would Rich throw away the character development of MitD for the sake of one joke? Xykon has no character development. RC only has character development in flashback (i.e. SoD). MitD is developing before our very eyes, and at this point 2 will get you 1 that we are in the initial stages of a heel face turn. Consider Rich's style of storytelling - how likely is it he'll get rid of MitD the moment of his reveal?

Obviously, I don't think it very likely, but I'll admit that since it is in the unknowable future, my opinion may change as the story progresses.

Oh, since I'm on the subject, the idea that Rich may have secured copyright for the character (i.e. had asked Nintendo if he could use Snorlax in his published comic). I would discard it out of hand for all major companies. Such business arrangements are usually to sell toys and cups and other merchandise, and they are very profitable for the companies. Webcomics and their dead tree incarnations are not so profitable that Rich could afford to cut Nintendo in.

That would leave small companies/single authors, yes. But nothing so far has been a good fit in those lists, I'd say (not at the level of Snorlax, at any rate).

Grey Wolf

[Saldre]

Hey!

The Protean does "detect thoughts" as an ability though. The MitD could have learned from the Ritual's nature just by being around Redcloak, combined with what little information Tsukiko was able to get out of the scroll herself.

Example: When Xycon is berating Redcloak, the latter thinks "Remember Redcloak you need this guy to preform the arcane half of the ritual you gave him!". Then, any thoughts Tsukiko may have figured out about the rituals combines with what he knows already and he gives an off-hand comment about it being half a ritual.

This lends credence to a theory: Perhaps MitD's psionic powers were only awakened after the "escape" incident? Rich himself mentions that the MitD did not know it had these powers until the encounter with O-chul triggered them. This is somewhat strengthened by the fact that the MitD, prior to this incident, is incapable of reading minds, as it is easily tricked by several people but begins to display extra knowledge after unlocking these powers. Granted these powers, despite being at "at will" are clearly not being used all the time by the MitD as he still attempts to control and replicate them.

My point is: it is possible that the MitD has no ranks in spellcraft, but has learned the nature of the ritual trough other means: perhaps something as minor as a critical roll on a listen-check while outside of Redcloak's room!

Cons- Granted this leaves a rather large gaping hole: the MitD being able to link that this ritual is the same that say Redcloak was thinking about. But well, the MitD has pretty high Intel (Apparently) and maybe he's finally using his deductive powers?

Ps: On a side note, I believe the entire Psionics angle needs to be re-worked in the opening post. It can be argued that, with the MitD letting everybody do his thinking for him, he has simply not developed his Psionic powers until just recently. This would easily answer all of the cons listed in 2b)Abilities (Psionics). And either way, does psionics necessarily translate into telekinesis or levitation? The protean is Psionic, but has neither of those abilities, at least not in his list of Spell-like abilities.

[Nerdanel]

I think the MitD needs absolutely no telekinesis or levitation due to the art style. A possible Psionic Teleport is a different matter entirely, with the Phrenic template explaining it nicely, along with why nobody knows that the MitD can do that.

If the MitD has somehow gained 3 levels of Wilder, the "stomp" incident can be explained somewhat nicely by him casting Stomp (a Psychic Warrior power gained through the Expanded Knowledge feat) with Wild Surge and then suffering Psychic Enervation right after. The problem with that is him getting the XP to gain 3 levels of Wilder plus the ambiguity of the effect that seems a mixture of Stomp and Earthquake. (Without Psychic Enervation Stomp can be gained by being a level 1 Psychic Warrior or as a psi-like ability by being a Half-Giant (not a template though), and Earthquake can be gained as a SLA from Half-Earth Elemental.)

A theoretical possibility is that the MitD has only a few points in Psicraft (functioning like Spellcraft due to transparency) from a PC class level, and made the check due to luck and a natural high int modifier. For example, if the ritual was level 9 (Tsukiko doesn't qualify for epic spellcasting, so I doubt it's that), the DC for it is 29. If the MitD rolls a natural 20 and at level one in his chosen class has +4 in spellcraft/psicraft, he needs a +5 int modifier to have had a chance to succeed.

[Saldre]

I think that in the OotS, a natural 20 is an automatic success : remember Haley's arrow. With "like a -37 to hit", rolling a 20 was enough for a success and a direct hit to Nale. I doubt she has enough modifier to actually add up the 17 missing points, that seems like quite a lot.

So that would make your theory more likely, with only a few ranks of Psicraft, a natural 20 should be enough to succeed regardless of any other modifiers he might have.

[Sanguine]

I think that in the OotS, a natural 20 is an automatic success : remember Haley's arrow. With "like a -37 to hit", rolling a 20 was enough for a success and a direct hit to Nale. I doubt she has enough modifier to actually at up the 17 missing points, that seems like quite a lot.

So that would make your theory more likely, with only a few ranks of Psicraft, a natural 20 should be enough to succeed regardless of any other modifiers he might have.

Natural 20's are an automatic success for attacks, not so with skills.

[Saldre]

Ahh, thank you, I had no idea!

Well, I guess he would need those modifiers after all! Good thing we have established the MitD is smarter then he believes himself to be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a side note, I believe the entire Psionics angle needs to be re-worked in the opening post. It can be argued that, with the MitD letting everybody do his thinking for him, he has simply not developed his Psionic powers until just recently. This would easily answer all of the cons listed in 2b)Abilities (Psionics). And either way, does psionics necessarily translate into telekinesis or levitation? The protean is Psionic, but has neither of those abilities, at least not in his list of Spell-like abilities.

I agree the section needs updating, given the recent talk about it. That said, it is still tentative enough that I am happy to wait until page 30, and in doing so, give time for the discussion to mature. For example, I like your suggestion that he was not, in fact, psionic until the escape, that the duress actually "unshackled" his mind. Given a few more pages, other such ideas may emerge.

Grey Wolf

[Skorj]

The "MitD as an emerging psionic" theory would seem to explain a lot. We've seen a lot of the MitD interacting with his environment now, and we've never seen hands. Telekinesis is a very easy answer for that.

If the MitD had class levels in Wilder to go with an increase in INT above his base creature type, and if we stretch Psychic Enervation after a Wild Surge a bit, we could expain the MitDs need to sleep after using major powers. Not a perfect fit, as by RAW he'd be dazed, but I've seen no other rules-based explanation for the sleep thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The "MitD as an emerging psionic" theory would seem to explain a lot. We've seen a lot of the MitD interacting with his environment now, and we've never seen hands. Telekinesis is a very easy answer for that.


While I am willing to look into psionics as an explanation for his abilities, I disagree that he has been using telekinesis all this time. RC's lack of knowledge about psionics still needs to be considered, and also MitD tipping the box to get hold of a bucket. Not to mention that the only "breakthrough" was the escape, and most of the interactions you refer to happen before then. No, I'd say that all those times when things have been floating in the darkness can easily be explained by Rich not wanting to give anything away, rather than subtle hints that he was making them levitate with his mind.

Grey Wolf

[Saldre]

I agree with Wolf on that point, I believe it is just Artistic license. If Rich were to show us any (and I mean any concrete physical aspect) of the monster, It would kill the surprise: most of the forerunners are pretty unique looking in terms of limbs (even the protean: constantly showing different limbs and tentacles would be a give-away in and of itself).

Unfortunately, I still don't think Redcloak's knowledge should be a deciding factor in this matter, regardless of what he knew or didn't know psionics have indeed been established to exist in the OotS world by his own admission. As we have also established, the MitD itself wasn't aware of all of it's own abilities: I dont see why Redcloak would be more of an expert on it just because has a few books with him that may have been published before the invention of the specific concept of psionics (Like the Illithids, who are psionic despite pre-dating that particular book, I think).

[Lord Bingo]

I think we should establish a chronological history of the manifestation of traits by MitD as I think it is reasonable to assume that if some of MitD’s traits are of Rich’s invention, and not inherent to the base creature, it is likely that traits manifested earlier in the story arch may be more indicative of MitD’s race than latter, as requirements of plot may in time have taken on greater importance than authenticity. -Thus the "fine line".

One could assume that the power to teleport others is likely not an ability which is inherent to the base monster nor to any templates that might have been used to create him. Digging deep to discover power MitD did not know it had might be taken to mean “power Rich did not know it had”.
I realize this is doing away with an inconvenient problem rather that explaining/solving a mystery, but bear with me...

As it has been reasonably well established that MitD is a child/childish creature -and has been so for 30+ years we may well be looking for a creature that grows and evolves at a very slow pace, like dragons and elves, the latter of which to my knowledge takes a staggering 120 years to reach maturity, in some d&d universes. I’m not going to propose he is either of these (again).

That the stereotypical big game hunters never expected to encounter MitD in “this part of the world” suggest he is native to the d&d universe but not the jungle, as it goes to show that they would expect to encounter him somewhere else in the world.

It might also be reasonable to assume that the base monster does not speak at all since the game hunters seem surprised that MitD speaks in the first place -never mind the common. I believe this is already established in the summary.

That he is paraded around in a circus + the fact that he was caught by big game hunters, might mean that creatures of the monsters type are not usually considered to be sentient or that he is a freak, such as the Elephant Man.

He could (thus) be an awakened creature and his father could be the one who awakened him. This would make him a Magical Beast(augmented). (For non d&d buffs: awaken is a druid spell which essentially awakens a non-sentient creature to sentience in the course of which the creature becomes a magical beast and gains the ability to speak.)

To me, the third last panel of #474 seems to suggest that MitD has feet as Belkar reference footprints, which would rule out any creature which does not walk.

I am rather sure that MitD has the ability to cause earthquakes. I’m not so sure that his knocking Miko and her mount through a wall is not merely the comics way of conveying that MitD is immensely strong.

Unfortunately I do not know a lot about Psionics, but I from what I understand from recent posts it sound like a fruitful avenue of research.:smallbiggrin:

[Chevalia]

Is it possible that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) strip contains another clue? When the MiTD is saying that his father ate a lot more than he did, the demon roach at the bottom of the panel remarks "I bet HE ate babies." Does this imply that the MiTD's species is known for eating infants? Sorry if this has already been brought up, I tried to read most of this thread, but I may have missed a post somewhere.

Also, I have an encyclopedia of mythical creatures that I've been going through, just in case the MiTD isn't something from D&D. The main problem is that almost all of the really powerful, frightening creatures are unique. So far, the only one that fits enough of the qualifications to be worth considering is the Wendigo.

Pros:
They are known for constantly being hungry, and the more humans they eat, the larger they grow, making it plausible for the MiTD's father to be much bigger than itself. (However, I'm not entirely sure if they even have children or are only cursed individuals.)
They have supernatural speed and strength, which might make the earthquake possible.
They can manipulate the weather, enabling the MiTD to create rain for O-Chul.
They are found mostly in cold climates, making the MiTD's presence in the jungle surprising.
Cons:
Though they have a hideous appearance, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could say that they're also beautiful.
They don't seem to have the ability to transport people through magic.

After looking on the internet, I found out that the Wendigo is apparently also a template. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wendigo_%283.5e_Template%29#Special_Qualities) I've never played D&D myself; could someone tell me how well this would fit the MiTD?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it possible that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) strip contains another clue? When the MiTD is saying that his father ate a lot more than he did, the demon roach at the bottom of the panel remarks "I bet HE ate babies." Does this imply that the MiTD's species is known for eating infants? Sorry if this has already been brought up, I tried to read most of this thread, but I may have missed a post somewhere.
It's been brought up, and remains an intriguing possibility (funnily enough, when it was brought up - as part of the Ephemeral Hangman - it was thought as a con, which is most certainly not). Certainly, any group of creatures famous for eating babies could claim it as a pro, as you have done.


Also, I have an encyclopedia of mythical creatures that I've been going through, just in case the MiTD isn't something from D&D. The main problem is that almost all of the really powerful, frightening creatures are unique.
I'd say the main problem is that I'd be surprised if most of the creatures in such book aren't already part of D&D. After all, when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for such things as "acid-breathing sharks", it must mean you've really used everything else that has ever been though of.


So far, the only one that fits enough of the qualifications to be worth considering is the Wendigo.
<snip>could someone tell me how well this would fit the MiTD?

An excellent suggestion; if not for their lack of magic, and thus no explanation for the escape scene, it is an otherwise very good fit. Maybe not quite strong enough (although +7 strength is quite a bit - on a base creature with, say, 23 strength, high but not impossible, it'd put him in what we consider the right ballpark).

Intriguing, certainly - thanks for bringing it up.

Grey Wolf

[Saldre]

Actually, I know this doesn't fit but in the Cthulhu mythos Wendigos, or Ithaqua in particular as he's the big daddy of Wendigos, can carry people through the winds across the stars and skies... you get the general idea.

However, they are dropped down in full force as a block of Ice when the Journey ends; dead. I know this doesn't contribute much, as that is clearly not in any way, shape or form what happened to V and O-chul, but it was just a cool tid-bit of Information :P

Ps: I dont think its Ithaqua.

Also he eats babies. Well, you sacrifice babies to him. Same difference. :P

[Shale]

To be fair, Ithaqua's just a little bit of a jerk, and could probably do it without the whole killing-you-to-death thing if he wanted to.

[Lord Bingo]

It should be noted that the Wendigo template referred to by Chevalia is filed under homebrew on dadwiki. While this does certainly not rule out the Wendigo it makes it highly unlikely IMO. Also, MitD is in no way obsessed with eating human flesh -it prefers stew:smallbiggrin:

[lothos]

(snip)
By the way, lothos, I blatantly ripped your description of teleportation options and gave it its own section, just because it was too good not to use somehow. I also gave you credit in the version history. However, it's not a straight quote, since I did modify what you wrote to adapt it to the general style of the post, and other some extra points here and there, so if you have any objections to what I did, let me know.

No problems at all. I appreciate the compliment. Feel free to use anything I've posted in any summary section. I trust you to use it in appropriate context.

Cheers.

[Nerdanel]

I've been thinking about the scene where the MitD punched Miko and Windstriker through a stone wall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html). It's a problematic scene, but here are some possible mechanical explanations.

Telekinesis

- As a SLA from race
- As a SLA from template
- Cast as a sorcerer
- From a Ring of Telekinesis

I don't have access to every D&D monster in existence, but of the monsters that have a Telekinesis SLA in the SRD, Balor is the only one that's even half-way there, which isn't much.

Fetch is the only template with Telekinesis. The most limiting thing about it is that it can be only added on top of a Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid. The Unnerving Gaze thing could conceivably explain the audience reactions at the circus, if the darkness normally prevents it from going off. This template lowers strength, and the MitD's daddy would have to be a ghost, which doesn't play well with appetite.

+ Can throw Miko
- Windstriker is too heavy without metamagic
- Rules remember walls
- Questionable if it counts as "hitting" unless the MitD does everything by telekinesis

Far Hand

The level 1 psionic power.

+ The rules forget about walls
- Miko and Windstriker are creatures, not objects
- Would need a ton of augmenting to throw a heavy object far away
- Questionable if it counts as "hitting"

Awesome Blow

The monster feat.

+ Miko and Windstriker are applicable targets
+ Involves physically hitting the target
- Short range
- The rules remember walls

Just plain strength

+ No complicated explanations needed
- By RAW, strength doesn't do that

Special monster ability

Linnorms are supposed to have that, but I don't have the rules text.

[False_Prophet]

I haven't read the last thread to this, but I wanted to ask if, and why, Black Slaad/White Slaad is not mentioned as possibility ?
When I look at the entry it would be the perfect choice or at least a reasonable one.
They have huge DR and Str, they can "teleport without error" at will ( and not only themselves like most outsiders), they are not immune against mind-affecting spells, and, with view at the most recent clue, they have alot Knowledge(Arcana).
Also they would be "funny" as a choice, since they are a blob of darkness with two glowing eyes.
The only thing that speaks against the Black Slaad I could think of, would be that they have to evolve into such, but maybe he has done exactly that, and thats why he didn't know he could use teleport.
But besides that, everything else seems to fit as far as I can see





Ps: Sorry if my english makes it difficult to read.

[Kish]

I haven't read the last thread to this, but I wanted to ask if, and why, Black Slaad/White Slaad is not mentioned as possibility ?
When I look at the entry it would be the perfect choice or at least a reasonable one.
Huh, let me see...*gets out Epic Level Handbook* White slaadi are Large, black slaadi are Huge, that fits if his father was a black slaad and he's a white one. Massive Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: The Planes, and Knowledge: Religion, all appropriate for his mysterious knowledge of arcane-and-divine rituals. Intelligence 26 and Wisdom 27, problematic. Strength 36 fits, DR 35/+5 in 3.0 terms which would translate to something really high in 3.5ed. Teleport Without Error ability fits...I'd say it's one of the best candidates proposed yet.

[Schadrach]

Huh, let me see...*gets out Epic Level Handbook* White slaadi are Large, black slaadi are Huge, that fits if his father was a black slaad and he's a white one. Massive Knowledge: Arcane, Knowledge: The Planes, and Knowledge: Religion, all appropriate for his mysterious knowledge of arcane-and-divine rituals. Intelligence 26 and Wisdom 27, problematic. Strength 36 fits, DR 35/+5 in 3.0 terms which would translate to something really high in 3.5ed. Teleport Without Error ability fits...I'd say it's one of the best candidates proposed yet.

Side question: Is speech unusual for them?

[Kish]

Side question: Is speech unusual for them?
No, they can speak Common, Celestial, and Infernal, as well as communicating telepathically. But, if the hunters didn't expect something that looks like a big pale white humanoid toad to speak...

Well, it's not a perfect fit, but I'd still consider it pretty close.

[Gift Jeraff]

Plus, Monster-san is presumably not an Outsider.

[Kish]

Plus, Monster-san is presumably not an Outsider.
Why? Unless Outsiders never require food, which is possible but I can't remember offhand.

Let's not add restrictions Rich hasn't given us. That way lies it being impossible to figure out what the creature could be.

[Optimystik]

I haven't read the last thread to this, but I wanted to ask if, and why, Black Slaad/White Slaad is not mentioned as possibility ?
When I look at the entry it would be the perfect choice or at least a reasonable one.
They have huge DR and Str, they can "teleport without error" at will ( and not only themselves like most outsiders), they are not immune against mind-affecting spells, and, with view at the most recent clue, they have alot Knowledge(Arcana).
Also they would be "funny" as a choice, since they are a blob of darkness with two glowing eyes.
The only thing that speaks against the Black Slaad I could think of, would be that they have to evolve into such, but maybe he has done exactly that, and thats why he didn't know he could use teleport.
But besides that, everything else seems to fit as far as I can see

Oh wow. I hadn't even considered this because it was Product Identity, but...

- Surrounded by Deeper Darkness
- Yellow Eyes
- Massive Str and DR
- Greater Teleport at will
- Monstrous appearance

He didn't have to touch them though... hmm...

(The mental ability scores definitely don't match, though of course he could just be a child.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I haven't read the last thread to this, but I wanted to ask if, and why, Black Slaad/White Slaad is not mentioned as possibility ?
When I look at the entry it would be the perfect choice or at least a reasonable one.
They have huge DR and Str, they can "teleport without error" at will ( and not only themselves like most outsiders), they are not immune against mind-affecting spells, and, with view at the most recent clue, they have alot Knowledge(Arcana).
Also they would be "funny" as a choice, since they are a blob of darkness with two glowing eyes.
The only thing that speaks against the Black Slaad I could think of, would be that they have to evolve into such, but maybe he has done exactly that, and thats why he didn't know he could use teleport.
But besides that, everything else seems to fit as far as I can see
Since people with access to the MM have given it the thumbs-up already, I will just add: it is an excellent suggestion. It is going straight to the forerunners section, I think (unless anyone brings up an objection bigger than the ones in this page).

Speaking of which, I'll field a few of those:

Plus, Monster-san is presumably not an Outsider.
Not necessarily. Notice in the first post, in section 2c - categories, that outsiders are not outright discarded. They do eat, and they do sleep, although they might not need to - but look at Celia, who is an outsider. Strict reading of the rules may say otherwise, but it is a very small bending of those rules to say that some outsiders are human-like enough.


(The mental ability scores definitely don't match, though of course he could just be a child.)
I have not touched in the "number scores for WIS" debate until now, but going to risk life and limb: I don't think we should read too much into that. Unlike strength, the "mental" stats are far more fuzzy, and far more likely to bend under plot. If MitD had strength 3, I can't see him punching people through walls, but I can easily see a Slaad, WIS 20+, being characterised as an innocent and naïve creature abandoned to its luck in a jungle.

Of course, if someone does find another surprise like the slaad that fits even better, I'll be happy to consider it. I'm just saying that high WIS scores we can roll with.

Speech, though, more tricky. It would have to rely on "MitD was a baby when they found him", which is a tricky thing to float since white and black are very old (200+ years, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad#Society)) versions of slaads. Anyone has access to primary sources for 3.0 slaad societies?

Grey Wolf

Edit: it may be a bit unfair of me to point this out, but this kind of idea is why I am so against discarding tricky clues just because we haven't made them fit yet. There are so many creatures we just have not considered, and all it takes is the right person making that one key connection...

[Optimystik]

I have not touched in the "number scores for WIS" debate until now, but going to risk life and limb: I don't think we should read too much into that. Unlike strength, the "mental" stats are far more fuzzy, and far more likely to bend under plot. If MitD had strength 3, I can't see him punching people through walls, but I can easily see a Slaad, WIS 20+, being characterised as an innocent and naïve creature abandoned to its luck in a jungle.

Of course, if someone does find another surprise like the slaad that fits even better, I'll be happy to consider it. I'm just saying that high WIS scores we can roll with.

I agree with your analysis, but the defining mental score for this kid is Charisma, not Wisdom. He is very pliable and unassertive, and he is also hideous (if you go by the appearance component of Charisma.) It doesn't quite fit with creatures that have Cha in the high 20s low 30s range.

Being a child can handwave a lot of that away, but not easily. Of course, the mental stats could represent a "potential, not actual" situation.


Speech, though, more tricky. It would have to rely on "MitD was a baby when they found him", which is a tricky thing to float since white and black are very old (200+ years, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad#Society)) versions of slaads. Anyone has access to primary sources for 3.0 slaad societies?

Why 3.0? The whole "OotS was 3.0 before strip 1" thing was a joke specific to the Order and shouldn't be assumed to apply to SoD.

[Shale]

Question: Can Slaadi reproduce sexually? Because going by the monster manual and epic handbook, only the Red Slaad and Blue Slaad can spawn Green Slaads (by either laying an egg in an arcane caster or infecting one with the Blue Slaad's disease), and neither of them can grow up to be a Black Slaad.

[Saldre]

I agree, the same way having the [evil] alignment is arbitrary and doesn't define or restrict characters, characteristics should dictate potential, where the mental a stat is the more of an enough it would require to demonstrate full potential.

Demonstrating high strength would only require the MitD to hit someone, but demonstrating his high Wis or Intel would require him to do some thinking, which he himself has admitted he does not do.

As for charisma, he could have naturally high charisma but receive some sort of negative modifier to it simply because of he is not using his wisdom or intelligence to their full bonus.

Much like Elan. He has incredibly High charisma, but his low Intel makes him out to be extremely annoying to people with high intel.

The MitD may be suffering from the same thing, as he is able to befriend people who are patient and other kids, but simply annoys the rest of the Team Evil who are much smarter then he is.

As for the Slaad, that is indeed a great find! Would the fact that its protected be that much of a problem? couldnt rich call it, say a "Slaod" or a "Slaid" or something along those lines and get away with it?

[Gift Jeraff]

As for the Slaad, that is indeed a great find! Would the fact that its protected be that much of a problem? couldnt rich call it, say a "Slaod" or a "Slaid" or something along those lines and get away with it?

Slaadi have appeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) and been mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) in the comic before.

Also, yeah, sorry about my confusion with the MitD's outsider status.

[Saldre]

They are also there with the outsourcing joke waaay later when Roy meets the Soul-spice ghosts.
Its a Modron!

But they aren't main characters, I figure that's the real issue there. I think the MitD qualifies as a main character, as in i am assuming once he's revealed, he'll appear in more then a single panel.

Unless he's revealed for a single panel, then goes right back into the darkness?

Haha, thats terrible, i have no idea what these things are :P Modron's the Lawful one, Slaad's the Chaotic one. Ok. I get it now :P Haha

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, that was a modron, essentially a slaad's polar opposite.*

But yeah, even if the reveal is at the very end, there's likely to be several panels/strips featuring it, much longer than most of Rich's pop culture references.

*Speaking of which, does this mean that the OOTSiverse probably doesn't have formians as the exemplar lawful outsider race?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why 3.0? The whole "OotS was 3.0 before strip 1" thing was a joke specific to the Order and shouldn't be assumed to apply to SoD.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7839023&postcount=631) post implies there is no 3.5 slaad version, and I wanted to specify 3.0, as opposed to 2nd or 1st. If there is a 3.5 slaad, then that will do as well, of course. I just want primary source for their society, much for the same reason Shale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7840996&postcount=639) asks about their reproduction. That is one complex reproduction cycle - which on the other hand Rich may have simply ignored/simplified.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

I decided to do some (highly approximate) math with Far Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/farHand.htm) the psionic power.

Let's say that the MitD decides to increase range 100 times and the weight limit 300 times. The total power point expenditure is 501. Part of that could be supplied by Wild Surge, but even with that the MitD would need manifester level in the hundreds to be allowed to spend that many power points at once.

Thus, it looks extremely unlikely that the MitD threw Miko and Windstriker using Far Hand (which, by the way, affects objects not creatures).

[Lord Bingo]

I've just been sifting through my Monster Manual and the Forgotten Realms Wiki. I agree that the slaadi would be an excellent choice was it not for the way they come into being. Here is what the wiki says:

Red and blue slaadi reproduce by infecting living hosts. The red do so by implanting eggs beneath their victim's skin which grow into a baby blue slaad that eats the host from within. The blue infect the host with a lycanthropy-like disease that slowly transforms them into a red slaad. Despite being the means of producing the other slaad type, reds and blues despise one another. If either a red slaad or blue slaad infects an arcane spellcaster, the host will spawn a green slaad, superior to its parent in that it may cast spells. A green slaad, upon reaching its hundredth year of life, will retreat into isolation for the duration of about a year. Upon its return it has transformed into a smaller, but more powerful grey slaad, which focus more on spell-casting than most other slaadi. Some grey slaadi undergo an unnamed, mysterious ritual, which transforms them into death slaadi. Death slaadi possess amazing magical and physical might, but eschew focusing on the former, as the greys do, being bent more on perpetuating slaughter and death. As such, death slaad tend more towards an evil alignment than do most other slaadi. If the death slaad survives a century, it turns into the white slaad.[2] And if the white slaad survives a century, it turns into a black slaad in the manner of its preceding transformations. The black slaad is the most powerful slaad, excluding the slaad lords.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Slaad

I have found no reference of an inherent ability to teleport without error in my MM3.5 (which does not mention White and Black Slaadi) and no mention of slaadi abilities that would justify MitD's causing earthquakes.

[Shale]

From that same article:


In the mating season, each race of slaad converges on the Spawning Stone, wresting the Stone away from the previous group, so that they may fertilize each others' internal egg sacs, and carry away the seed-like fertilized eggs for later implantation into host bodies. Sometimes, however, young slaadi are produced right there at the stone because the slaadi implant each other in their mating frenzy. Thus, dead adult slaadi routinely float about the stone until destroyed by the chaos of Limbo.

That answers my question, then.

Edit: Also, a White Slaad can use Shatter at will. Using that spell to "shatter" the ground is a stretch, but not an unthinkable one.

[Saldre]

Also, I get the feeling that these things are incarnations of Chaos.

A quote from that wiki: "Though as slaadi are creatures of chaos, such domination occurs not through a regimented hierarchy, but by brute force".

This doesn't seem to be the case with the MitD, who willingly stays in the box despite wanting to get out and who listens to others who, despite being weaker, manage to bully him around (See Redcloak).

One could say that it's been separated from the hoard for too long, which is why it doesn't adhere to those standards or behaviors, however for it to be a slaad it would have to be one of the stronger ones, and those have spent hundreds of years in the community, despite going into isolation from time to time.

Maybe it went into isolation the final time before turning into a black slaad, then the hunters found it in the jungle? Granted this seems unlikely, as by this point it is several hundred years old and unlikely to be captured by them. Unless it was Hibernating I guess. And then it decided it liked stew, and would hang around, despite that it could kill everybody? In a way, that seems relatively chaotic :P staying instead of going back...

On the other side of the coin: the "correction, anything scarier then you SHOULD be" by Xycon throws a monkey wrench into everything. Should we be looking on the MitD purely based on his stats, or do we attempt to analyze his behavior as well? Both seem to be intrinsically linked I find, because any monster stronger enough has high enough numbers, even in its dump stats, that outclass most characters in the comic.

[Kish]

If he's a slaad, I would guess that he never, in his entire 200-year-plus life, met another slaad except his father.

[Saldre]

Which would be unlikely, given their mating rituals, which seem to be based on instinct as all Slaad gain the ability to follow the currents and do so during the mating season.

[Shale]

Given that he can only vaguely remember his father and doesn't know what he is, if he is 200+ years old (from reading the wiki article, it's possible that green slaadi can mate and create more greens, greys can lay eggs containing infant greys, and so on), then he's got to be amnesiac for some reason.

[Saldre]

Well, there is a way all this could plausible: Anomalies. He could be an anomaly, which (despite there being less chance of this happening) is stronger then a Slaad lord.

But i think that would fall into the "Not something I made up for this story" trap. Unless that's the line Rich was drawing. He didn't create the concept of anomalies in Slaads, but he is creating this one in particular.

[Lord Bingo]

Might I propose the Braxat, from Monster Manual 2 (p37):

On the Plus side:
It is a Large Monstrous Humanoid.
It has DR10/+1
It can cast Dimension Door at will.
It Does not normally speak Common.
It is native to Desert and Mountain.
It has Psionic powers
It can use Mind Blast at will, which is a stunning attack.

On the Con side:
While they are described as incredibly strong it is statted at only 23 which does not seem nearly enough.
It does not have any spellcraft or religious knowledge.

Keeping in mind that the Braxat base creature is only CR9 I think that it should be considered as a possible candidate, especially if it were given a few levels and/or a template.

[Sky_Schemer]

I really like the slaad idea a lot, but as was pointed out earlier, WotC does consider the Slaad to be Product Identity (http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm). We should at least mention that as a potential stumbling block, even though Rich has used them for one-off jokes.

[Forbiddenwar]

I really like the slaad idea a lot, but as was pointed out earlier, WotC does consider the Slaad to be Product Identity (http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm). We should at least mention that as a potential stumbling block, even though Rich has used them for one-off jokes.

No, as I posted previously, this isn't an issue. It falls under "Fair Use" of the copyright act. "Fair use" is a LOT more than education or parody.

edit for reference to earlier post:

snip

[Lord Bingo]

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

fair use doctrine FYI...

[Forbiddenwar]

More Fair Use Doctrine with example




Four factors of Fair Use: (http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html#1)
The four factors judges consider are:

the purpose and character of your use
the nature of the copyrighted work
the amount and substantiality of the portion taken, and
the effect of the use upon the potential market.

Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?

Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings?

EXAMPLE: Roger borrows several quotes from the speech given by the CEO of a logging company. Roger prints these quotes under photos of old-growth redwoods in his environmental newsletter. By juxtaposing the quotes with the photos of endangered trees, Roger has transformed the remarks from their original purpose and used them to create a new insight. The copying would probably be permitted as a fair use.

[Durgok]

He would never be able to print it in a book.

[Morthis]

Something that occurred to me the other day when reading through the old comics again was this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).

This could easily be explained as just being part of the joke, but mitd recognizes the spells being cast by the huecuva. Now even if we assume a spellcrafting check is not needed to recognize spells being cast (since in oots world, the verbal component seems to be the name of the spell), mitd is usually fairly oblivious to d&d rules, yet he recognized those spells as cleric spells. Because it's part of the joke, it could just be rule of funny, but it stood out to me reading through it again because it could also indicate a spellcraft and/or knowledge check.

[Belkon]

Something that occurred to me the other day when reading through the old comics again was this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).

This could easily be explained as just being part of the joke, but mitd recognizes the spells being cast by the huecuva. Now even if we assume a spellcrafting check is not needed to recognize spells being cast (since in oots world, the verbal component seems to be the name of the spell), mitd is usually fairly oblivious to d&d rules, yet he recognized those spells as cleric spells. Because it's part of the joke, it could just be rule of funny, but it stood out to me reading through it again because it could also indicate a spellcraft and/or knowledge check.

Possible but I think it is more likely that he knew the definition of the word divine.

[Sky_Schemer]

No, as I posted previously, this isn't an issue. It falls under "Fair Use" of the copyright act. "Fair use" is a LOT more than education or parody.

If the Slaad isn't an issue, then neither are the Snorlax, Heffalump, Yoshi, etc.

I'm just saying that we need to be consistent here. If Grey_Wolf's post is going to have a section for this sort of thing, then the Slaad is going to have to fall into it, or at least have an explanation for why it's different.

[Optimystik]

I have found no reference of an inherent ability to teleport without error in my MM3.5 (which does not mention White and Black Slaadi) and no mention of slaadi abilities that would justify MitD's causing earthquakes.

Black and White Slaadi are in ELH, and they do have Teleport Without Error as SLAs.


Edit: Also, a White Slaad can use Shatter at will. Using that spell to "shatter" the ground is a stretch, but not an unthinkable one.

I'd say it's just plain strong and heavy enough to stomp the ground. Str and Con in the 36-42 range can do that.

EDIT:

For the copyright issue - I think Rich will be fine, even putting it in a book, so long as he leaves it in the darkness. He can hint very strongly that it's a (pygmy) black slaad without actually coming out and saying it.

[Forbiddenwar]

If the Slaad isn't an issue, then neither are the Snorlax, Heffalump, Yoshi, etc.

I'm just saying that we need to be consistent here. If Grey_Wolf's post is going to have a section for this sort of thing, then the Slaad is going to have to fall into it, or at least have an explanation for why it's different.

Please read again, I clearly state why the slaad is not an issue, but Snorlax, heffalump and yoshi is.


Parody is not the only allowed fair use.

Warning: Legal copyright junk ahead:


A recent and clear example of this is the Obama poster, where an artist took a photograph owned by Associative Press and without permission or license, copied it altering a few colors. It became the famous "Hope" poster, earning the artist over $100,000 (which he then donated to the Obama Campaign). AP didn't see a dime, because the use was fair, as decided in a federal court.


A fair use assessment strongly suggests that any non-tradmarked D&D creature would work, as telling a story adds new expression and meaning to a entry in a gaming manual. Come to think of it, any nontrademarked creature in any table top gaming manual would be fair. As long as it hasn't appeared in a fictional literay setting.

However, if it was a character that appeared in any other work of fiction (I.E. Snorlax, yoshi, heffalump), no new meaning or expression would exist, so the use isn't fair, and permission is required. Additionally, if the creature is trademarked (again, snorlax) Fair use doesn't effect trademarks, so that would violate the law as well.

Not a lawyer, but studied copyright for 1.5 years as part of a masters degree.

So yes, MitD can legally be a Slaad, Rich can publish book and movies and make millions from MitD being a slaad and yes, he doesn't have to get Wizards of the coast permission or pay them a dime to do so.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He would never be able to print it in a book.

Print what? And why? I am very skeptical of statements with no explanation.

If you are referring to printing a slaad, he already did. Twice.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

Print what? And why? I am very skeptical of statements with no explanation.

If you are referring to printing a slaad, he already did. Twice.

Grey Wolf

As a joke both times, but not as a main character - which MitD definitely is.

I get what Forbiddenwar is saying but I just don't think it's as clear-cut as that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As a joke both times, but not as a main character - which MitD definitely is.

I get what Forbiddenwar is saying but I just don't think it's as clear-cut as that.

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) the SRD - the legal section is the very first document, that establishes exactly what you can and cannot do with SRD content. Slaad is part of the Product Identity list, which is subject to section 7:


7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.(bold mine)

The second bold is clear: Rich cannot claim to be the creator or owner of Slaad if he uses it. The first bold is a little harder, since it uses a non-standard meaning of "Use" (thus the capital letter), which is 'helpfully' redefined in section 1:


(g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content.

Notice it applies specifically to "Open Game Content", again a concept that needs definition:


(d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity.

And this is the end of the line: Open Game Content is the mechanics of D&D. Derivative works to those mechanics would be other role-playing rules using the creatures of D&D. Rich is not publishing or modifying the mechanics.

Where am I going with this? WotC didn't trademark Slaad. They could have*, but didn't. Trademark is a ridiculously strong position that requires very careful tip-toeing when using, and if you do you rely on fair-use guidelines, as examined by Forbiddenwar. I am going to argue that we don't even need to go that far because the SRD is written such that Slaad is under a less restrictive agreement. So long as Rich doesn't pretend to own it, and doesn't publish a role-playing game with Slaad on it, he is within the license agreement, as far as I understand it.

Depending on how you interpret "derivative material", I will admit that could include such works as Rich's comic, but only if such definition includes all role playing games that included slaads - and I don't think that could be it, since it would be absurd to include creatures that no-one can use due to the agreement.

It really boils down to this: WotC's business is to sell rules of how to create stories (a role playing game, in the end, is a collectively-created narrative). They cannot really stop people from creating stories without destroying their own business base.

I've got a headache from reading legalise, so I'll stop here. When I add the slaad to the list, I will mention that its legal status is somewhat murky, as one of the cons. But the pokemons, all of which are trademarked and most of the other ideas in the IP list are far less murky - particularly those that belong to big corporations. All** those are heavily protected, and their companies will sue.

Grey Wolf

* Maybe they couldn't have, and still allow people to play with them. I don't know, and I don't particularly care - it is irrelevant to my argument.

** There are some less-well-known creatures in that list that may or may not be trademarked as such. If so, and anyone is willing to look into them, I'll be happy to reconsider them.

[Optimystik]

Where am I going with this? WotC didn't trademark Slaad. They could have*, but didn't. Trademark is a ridiculously strong position that requires very careful tip-toeing when using, and if you do you rely on fair-use guidelines, as examined by Forbiddenwar. I am going to argue that we don't even need to go that far because the SRD is written such that Slaad is under a less restrictive agreement. So long as Rich doesn't pretend to own it, and doesn't publish a role-playing game with Slaad on it, he is within the license agreement, as far as I understand it.

But isn't there a double standard at work here? Here are the Fan Comic guidelines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103774) from this very forum.


Use of The Order of the Stick Characters, Places, and Other Trademarks
Generally speaking, you are not permitted to make fan comics that tell the stories of any of the characters of The Order of the Stick or feature any of the places that exist in the comic, such as Azure City. These names and likenesses are trademarked by Giant in the Playground and cannot be used without specific permission. There are a few situations where it may be deemed acceptable:

* A cameo appearance, defined now as an appearance that is confined to a single strip of the comic series, done for humor or contrast. Essentially, this constitutes a parody of sorts, and as such is considered Fair Use. Note that the character should not have any meaningful influence on the plot, and the event should not be referenced repeatedly in future comics. For example, it’s OK for your characters to stop and ask Durkon for directions to the nearest tavern in one panel and then never mention it again. It is not OK for Durkon to give them their sacred quest to fulfill Thor’s prophecy--which will comprise several dozen strips of story--even if Durkon’s entire appearance is limited to one strip.

Underlines for emphasis... So Durkon can be in someone else's comic as a one-off thing, but can't be a recurring character. Doesn't the same standard apply to Rich, if he uses a Slaad as a recurring character? I may be mistaken, but the situations seem similar.

Of course, he is fine for now, because even if the MitD is a slaad, he hasn't revealed it as one - but if he ever does so, wouldn't that pose a problem?

[Shale]

The difference is right there - Rich's note says that the protected names, likenesses and locations are trademarked by him. The slaad is not trademarked by Wizards of the Coast. Product Identity isn't the same thing.

[Optimystik]

All right, I suppose that's a fair distinction - though I wouldn't want it to be my defense in court.

Not that I'm complaining, as I definitely think some kind of dimunitive Black Slaad is the best fit yet and I'd be sad to learn it was verboten.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But isn't there a double standard at work here? Here are the Fan Comic guidelines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103774) from this very forum.



Underlines for emphasis... So Durkon can be in someone else's comic as a one-off thing, but can't be a recurring character. Doesn't the same standard apply to Rich, if he uses a Slaad as a recurring character? I may be mistaken, but the situations seem similar.

Of course, he is fine for now, because even if the MitD is a slaad, he hasn't revealed it as one - but if he ever does so, wouldn't that pose a problem?

No, that is exactly the point I was making. Rich, Nintendo, Square, etc. all have produced stories. Their characters are developed in those stories. WotC instead have created rules, mechanisms, algorithms to create stories. They cannot sell those mechanisms and then tell you, "upps, sorry, you can't use these creatures we stated in your stories because we hold all rights to them".

Yes, some of those creatures are specially protected, but not as protected as anything that has appeared in a story. What WotC protects is their existence in the rules and mechanism. They don't want White Wolf to add them to Vampire: the Masquerade.

Grey Wolf

[Forbiddenwar]

No, that is exactly the point I was making. Rich, Nintendo, Square, etc. all have produced stories. Their characters are developed in those stories. WotC instead have created rules, mechanisms, algorithms to create stories. They cannot sell those mechanisms and then tell you, "upps, sorry, you can't use these creatures we stated in your stories because we hold all rights to them".

Yes, some of those creatures are specially protected, but not as protected as anything that has appeared in a story. What WotC protects is their existence in the rules and mechanism. They don't want White Wolf to add them to Vampire: the Masquerade.

Grey Wolf

This is exactly what I was trying to say, thank-you.

[Selene]

Finally, why the heck is he kept in a box? They trust him enough to let him roam around some of the time, so it's not a cage. If the box makes him more comfortable, we add "damaged by bright light" to his qualities, but we don't quite have enough evidence.

Apologies if this was already answered. If it was, I missed it.

He's not "kept" in a box. He can get out any time he wants (thus the umbrella). The reason he remains in the dark is that Xykon wants him to. He's not supposed to come out until the Big Reveal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html). He's not damaged by light, since he asked the lantern archons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) to light him up, and since he was excited about the idea of coming out of the darkness when they left Dorukon's dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). That was when RC brought out the umbrella, to MitD's annoyance.


A fair use assessment strongly suggests that any non-tradmarked D&D creature would work, as telling a story adds new expression and meaning to a entry in a gaming manual.

Does WotC not trademark their product identity creatures? (I honestly don't know; this is not a rhetorical question.)


WotC didn't trademark Slaad.

Ok, never mind. TY. That seems pretty important. And it does make the slaadi look like pretty good contenders. :smallcool:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does WotC not trademark their product identity creatures? (I honestly don't know; this is not a rhetorical question.)

Honestly speaking, I think not. Let me stress this: I am not a lawyer, it takes me a few minutes to parse each phrase of the SRD, and I am not absolutely certain. But I have read through the whole "product identity" paragraph a few times, and as far as I can tell, it is not the same as trademark, but a weaker version meant to keep other RPG-making businesses from using slaad, illithid and other "characteristic" WotC creatures.

But I've said this before: I'd feel much better about all this if an IP lawyer gave a professional opinion. Since we don't have one, take everything else with a grain of salt.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

I have a slight correction regarding this statement in the summary on page 1:
The Dungeonbred template is from the book Dungeonscape, which was published in 1Q 2007. Consequently it is unlikely as Rich stated to know what MitD is in 2004. I say "unlikely" because Rich co-wrote the book and may thus have conceived of the template some time prior to the book being published.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have a slight correction regarding this statement in the summary on page 1:
The Dungeonbred template is from the book Dungeonscape, which was published in 1Q 2007. Consequently it is unlikely as Rich stated to know what MitD is in 2004. I say "unlikely" because Rich co-wrote the book and may thus have conceived of the template some time prior to the book being published.

Nothing in your post is new; we already knew that it is from a book in which Rich worked prior to being published. I assume you refer to the possibility that he hadn't started working on it at the time he decided what MitD is?

I'll put it another way: no-one has really relied on dungeonbred so far. Notice that most of the templated ideas revolve around making Tarrasque powerful enough, and dungeonbred doesn't help them. If and when someone uses dungeonbred, and consequently dungeonbred's creation date becomes an issue, I'll add it. Until then, it is too circumstantial to add, although for the record I consider that, indeed, dungeonbred was likely not been created at the time MitD was thought up. But then, I consider that a template stack is very unlikely in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Also, Dungeonbred is one of the least "templatey" templates that's been considered. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd accept "grew up in a confined cave, so it's smaller and more omnivorous than it ought to be" as an excuse for those changes with or without an official rule backing it up.

[Optimystik]

I think he's smaller (and simpler) because he's a child, not because he was raised in a dungeon somewhere.

I really doubt he was raised in a dungeon either, given his attention to manners:

"Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say "please" and "thank you" and "sorry about the smell."

I just can't see politeness and hygiene mattering that much in a dungeon.

[Darakonis]

Didn't read through the entire Slaad copyright discussion, so sorry if this has been brought up.

From the wikipedia entry for Slaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad#Development_and_licensing):


Because they were created by a D&D player (and their copyrights transferred to TSR and, subsequently, Wizards of the Coast), slaadi are one of only a handful of D&D monsters considered "Product Identity" by Wizards of the Coast and, as such, are not released under its Open Gaming License.
Does this change anything? Does the fact that they are now "Product Identity" overrule the fact that they were previously (and probably currently) under copyright protection? Or have we agreed that it is Fair Use for the MitD to be copyrighted material, as long as it is not Trademarked material?


Peace
-Darakonis

[Saldre]

I believe that it has been agreed upon, tentatively, that the Slaad can be used in a story as fair use, but not in an Rpg.

Meaning the MitD could be a Slaad in the comic, but the MitD would not be usable if Rich makes a game out of the OtsS.

Hmmmm

Doesnt he already have a game with the OotS? a board game, true, but still. Is the MitD in it?

[Optimystik]

Didn't read through the entire Slaad copyright discussion, so sorry if this has been brought up.

From the wikipedia entry for Slaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad#Development_and_licensing):

Does this change anything? Does the fact that they are now "Product Identity" overrule the fact that they were previously (and probably currently) under copyright protection? Or have we agreed that it is Fair Use for the MitD to be copyrighted material, as long as it is not Trademarked material?

The fact is that none of us has the expertise required to either support or refute that assertion. But since we can't refute it, we can keep the MitD as a possibility until Rich disabuses us.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Didn't read through the entire Slaad copyright discussion, so sorry if this has been brought up.

From the wikipedia entry for Slaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad#Development_and_licensing):


Does this change anything? Does the fact that they are now "Product Identity" overrule the fact that they were previously (and probably currently) under copyright protection? Or have we agreed that it is Fair Use for the MitD to be copyrighted material, as long as it is not Trademarked material?


Peace
-Darakonis

Ok, just to make things slightly more clear (or less murky): every creation of anyone is under copyright. It is automatic. Copyright, as its name implies, is the limitation to produce copies of a given item. So you cannot, say, print the OotS comic and sell it for profit, since you don't have the right to make copies. Similarly, the Slaad is under copyright - you cannot publish a "slaad stat sheet" for profit. This is a far weaker right than trademark - a legal concept that basically says "my business revolves and is based upon this creation, and no-one else gets to use it". The whole "Identity Product", as far as I can tell, falls somewhere between the two. Not only cannot you reprint it, you cannot do derived products like RPGs, but you can use it in your role playing game or your stories.

However, it is not a scale, with copyright in one end and trademark on the other, so don't draw the idea too far. While they are all related to intellectual property law (i.e. the law that tries to assign ownership to non-material concepts such as "songs", "ideas", "concepts" and other esoteric stuff), they apply to different sections of that law. Copyright deals with the right to make copies (e.g. re-recording a piece of music), while trademark deals with businesses and their ways to make money. Which sometimes involves making lots of copies of the same thing, but needn't be so.

Aaaaand... the headache is back. I'm just an engineer. This stuff is lawyer job security, and I really wish I didn't have to touch it with a ten foot pole. As always, disclaimers about lack of knowledge, grains of salt, etc. etc.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

Exactly - and I'm an accountant, so I'm no better off than you are. :smalltongue:

(Law school is a ways away yet)

[LightPhoenix]

Demonstrating high strength would only require the MitD to hit someone, but demonstrating his high Wis or Intel would require him to do some thinking, which he himself has admitted he does not do.

As for charisma, he could have naturally high charisma but receive some sort of negative modifier to it simply because of he is not using his wisdom or intelligence to their full bonus.

O'Chul thinks MitF picks up Go quickly. That suggests a decent Wis/Int. We also know mental stats don't equal personality, and you pointed out the best example - Elan.

I don't know if the Black Slaad has a high Cha or not, but the line about being hideous but beautiful supports a high Cha monster.

[blunk]

Slaad? What slaad?

[Optimystik]

I don't know if the Black Slaad has a high Cha or not, but the line about being hideous but beautiful supports a high Cha monster.

It has high everything, like most monsters in the ELH. But given that he's just a child, we might have to adjust all those scores downward.

It's lowest attribute is Dex (22) - a White's is also its lowest (26).

This is the Black slaad's picture in the book (Deeper Darkness effect not shown):

http://pds5.egloos.com/pds/200705/10/31/d0046631_1105546.jpg

And this is a white:

http://pds4.egloos.com/pds/200705/10/31/d0046631_11055194.jpg

[lio45]

One little problem, the powerful slaadi are apparently always old...

A baby black slaad would totally be a great fit for MitD, but that's not something that exists. A black slaad was a green slaad back when it was a baby.



Red and blue slaadi reproduce by infecting living hosts. The red do so by implanting eggs beneath their victim's skin which grow into a baby blue slaad that eats the host from within. The blue infect the host with a lycanthropy-like disease that slowly transforms them into a red slaad. Despite being the means of producing the other slaad type, reds and blues despise one another. If either a red slaad or blue slaad infects an arcane spellcaster, the host will spawn a green slaad, superior to its parent in that it may cast spells. A green slaad, upon reaching its hundredth year of life, will retreat into isolation for the duration of about a year. Upon its return it has transformed into a smaller, but more powerful grey slaad, which focus more on spell-casting than most other slaadi. Some grey slaadi undergo an unnamed, mysterious ritual, which transforms them into death slaadi. Death slaadi possess amazing magical and physical might, but eschew focusing on the former, as the greys do, being bent more on perpetuating slaughter and death. As such, death slaad tend more towards an evil alignment than do most other slaadi. If the death slaad survives a century, it turns into the white slaad.[2] And if the white slaad survives a century, it turns into a black slaad in the manner of its preceding transformations. The black slaad is the most powerful slaad, excluding the slaad lords.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Slaad

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One little problem, the powerful slaadi are apparently always old...

A baby black slaad would totally be a great fit for MitD, but that's not something that exists. A black slaad was a green slaad back when it was a baby.

Yes, this has been pointed out several times. If his father was a blue/red that infected a wizard, and then both of them were somehow stranded away from the rest of the slaadi, that would explain that. It would mean that MitD had remained innocent and child-like for over 200 years, though, and thus it is a weakness.

Grey Wolf

[False_Prophet]

To the age thing.
I think that the talk MITD had with O'Chul in the Strip before V arrives, implies very strongly that it is in fact not actually naive, it just chose to be that way because it makes it simpler for him.


And because of the Copyright, I may be wrong, but wouldn't the Slaad be under the same "rights", as the Huecuva or other more exotic monster which have already appeared in the Comic beyond a One-Strip Joke ?




Another enterily unrelated thing. When we go away from the Slaad assumption, couldn't the fact that he ist "bad at pulling" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) imply that he does not have "usual" limbs, if he would move things through the use of psionics, than it would be alot easyer to push.
I may see to much in a simple joke, but it strikes me as odd, because the MITD has never been shown to be "dumb", he was only childlike, naive maybe, but an actual lack of intelligence was never stated before.

[Bongos]

Truly an epic thread. The MitD indeed an enigma.

I think someone has discounted undead because "they don't eat", or similar?
The undead do eat http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html

Not saying MitD is undead.

I like the new theory of MitD as developing his powers due to recent events with Ochul. When Red Cloak and Xykon mention he is not as scary as he should be, to my interpretation suggests they know MitD is lacking something he should have.

MitD has very few memories of his parents, the ones that might have aided him in his development. However, MitD is now developing these powers because he has established a new "father" figure in Ochul. I wonder if the time the author has spent in MitD's character development does not hold as many clues to his identity as his abilities.

There is something within the relationship between Ochul and MitD that is assisting MitD in being all that he can. Something that is lacking in MitD's relationship between Red Cloak, Xykon.

It seems significant to me that MitD's powers manifest themselves during emotional distress. When he gets angry at Haley and Belkar for interupting his tea party, frutrated with Xykon for not letting him have transformers and when he is afraid for his friend Ochul's life.

I'm starting to feel that his personal development and subsequent gain in power may be a clue to his species. I see the Slaad and the manner that they gain in power as they evolve as a good candidate for MitD's identity.

[Barlen]

Re: the slaad discussion:


Grey wolf mentioned that they have been used as a joke twice already ( I dont recall them myself but...). Why would he hide something in the dark if he has already shown it in the light and joked about it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Re: the slaad discussion:


Grey wolf mentioned that they have been used as a joke twice already ( I dont recall them myself but...). Why would he hide something in the dark if he has already shown it in the light and joked about it?

You can find the relevant links in the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad) page for the slaad. And both times, the joke was that he is the "shoulder angel" for chaos - the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) was when Elan was ambivalent about letting his brother fall into the pit, and when the angel and devil made him confused, he got "law and chaos" angels to help; cue the slaad.

I don't see why that would stop MitD from being an actual slaad.

Edit:
Truly an epic thread. The MitD indeed an enigma.

I think someone has discounted undead because "they don't eat", or similar?
The undead do eat http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html

Some undead feed and even "rest" - vampires being the most prominent examples. But they tend to have very strict dietary restrictions, in those cases, and stew and moldy cheeseburgers don't feature prominently in any of them. Getting sleepy isn't a major characteristic, either. And if there are no rules about them having diets, the general, base rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) is that they don't eat and they don't sleep.

Grey Wolf

[Bongos]

Some undead feed and even "rest" - vampires being the most prominent examples. But they tend to have very strict dietary restrictions, in those cases, and stew and moldy cheeseburgers don't feature prominently in any of them. Getting sleepy isn't a major characteristic, either. And if there are no rules about them having diets, the general, base rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) is that they don't eat and they don't sleep.

Grey Wolf
The forum post I was responding to did not make that distinction.
As I said, I am not claiming the MitD is undead. Rules are rules, however the linked comic, which follows the author's rules, clearly shows an undead creature eating a head as if it was an apple. One should say the MitD cannot be undead because he eats moldy cheeseburgers and beans and the undead do not, rather than the MitD cannot undead because he eats.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The forum post I was responding to did not make that distinction.
As I said, I am not claiming the MitD is undead. Rules are rules, however the linked comic, which follows the author's rules, clearly shows an undead creature eating a head as if it was an apple. One should say the MitD cannot be undead because he eats moldy cheeseburgers and beans and the undead do not, rather than the MitD cannot undead because he eats.

On the contrary, the comic you linked does not help your case, and I very clearly mentioned it in my own: ghouls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm), like vampires, are exceptions to the rule. The one eating is a converted humanoid:
An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. (bold mine)

Without such explicit exception in the stats, an undead does not eat, does not hunger, etc.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, it's a wight. :smallwink:

(Though I'm not sure if that really changes anything.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, it's a wight. :smallwink:

(Though I'm not sure if that really changes anything.)

Actually, it might. Wights don't have a specific hunger for human flesh, although in-comic they have shown hunger for NPC levels, which is where Rich is getting it from, I'd assume. But rule-wise, if they are wights, they shouldn't be eating dead flesh, since it gives them nothing - and as such strengthens Bongos' argument that Rich is bending the "no eating" rule.

On the other hand, that still does not address the "doesn't sleep", which we have confirmation from RC & Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) that it still applies in undead.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Yes, this has been pointed out several times.

I know, but I still think this problem isn't getting the amount of spotlight it deserves.

MitD would have to live 100 years, then retreat into isolation for the duration of about a year, then at some point undergo an unnamed, mysterious ritual, after which he would have to survive a century, then another century, to finally become what would be a great fit for him.

Will a slaad more or less automatically evolve up that color ladder even if it does nothing while the centuries pass? If it can, then we *could* consider the possibility of MitD sitting alone in that jungle for a very long time... eating, sleeping, and doing nothing while it changes colors, with the result an innocent and child-like epically powerful black slaad.

But for some reason, I would tend to think that the actual meaning of this "live a century" is that a slaad has to "gain a century's worth of XP for its typical, active slaadish behavior".

(Hopefully I'm wrong, so our best candidate can stay on top of the list.)

[Optimystik]

I don't see why it has to evolve into being a black slaad. There's a number of things Rich could do to one to make it fit in that jungle... and no rule says they can't reproduce and have a baby black slaad either.

[Saldre]

I disagree, the rules are pretty clear on the evolutions of Slaadi.

The age thing is a pretty big problem, unless the Slaad was recovered after it gone trough the entire process.

And truth be told, the MitD doesnt walk or talk like a Duck-- Euh, I mean Slaad :P Though it is a pretty good fit, I think the age thing needs to be addressed: it pretty much counters almost a few of our "founding" assumptions about the MitD.

1) thats it young
2) that its just evolving its powers

[Bongos]

As I said before, the post I was referencing did not make this distinction. Nor did the link to the rules provided state the exception to ghouls. It simply stated the undead do not eat. The creature in the comic is still undead and is still eating. I am not trying to make any case for the MitD being undead, or rule bending, I am trying to make a clarification. The MitD is not undead because he eats stew and cheeseburgers, that is abundantly clear to me. The MitD eats, and in OOTS, this particular undead creature is also eating, however a diet of moldy cheeseburgers and beans and stew is a completely dissimilar diet to that of a human head. The MitD has mentioned he is willing to eat humans, but I will never expect any undead creature, or recently turned undead human creature to ever willingly dine on a rotted hamburger, flatulent beans and vulture stew.

[Optimystik]

I disagree, the rules are pretty clear on the evolutions of Slaadi.

No, they really aren't clear at all. Here is the line on Black Slaad:


A white slaad that survives for more than a century retreats into isolation for at least a year. It returns as a larger, stronger form of slaad - the black. The power of a black slaad eclipses that of some abominations and many of the oldest wyrms. A black slaad is a blot of darkness, a toad-shaped void from which only the two stars of its eyes gleam.

Now, here is what the passage does not mention:

1) It says nothing about the black slaad returning at full (adult) maturity;
2) It says nothing about black slaad being unable to reproduce;
3) It says nothing about what, exactly, happens during this "retreat."

It just describes one very specific means of creating a black slaad (the evolution of a white) and doesn't even go into detail on that. There is a lot of wiggle-room for Rich here.

[Saldre]

Granted there's a lot of room for wiggling, but you bolded the one part of the sentence that in all honesty does not matter.

- It mentions the Slaad returning as a larger stronger version, which would be pretty far-fetched if were to regress to an earlier stage of childhood.
- Well, Assuming you need a ritual to turn into a Black Slaad.... and that you need Isolation... but still, your right, it says nothing about its ability to reproduce.
- The Wiki mentions that it undergoes the same process as before, which is a ritual. I am personally not a DnD player, not do I have access in any book. But I am sure there's some sort of reference point to that.

[lio45]

...and no rule says they can't reproduce and have a baby black slaad either.

Come on. You can't expect the rules to enumerate everything that they can't do!

Normally, you should go by what the rules say, and you should not assume that everything not explicitly stated in print as a "can't" is a "can". So, here's what the rules say:



- Red and blue slaadi reproduce by infecting "hosts", with the babies being the opposite color to the parent.

- If the host is a wizard, the baby will be a (more powerful) green slaad instead of a blue/red one.

- A green slaad will eventually transform into a grey slaad which will eventually transform into a death slaad which will eventually transform into a white slaad which will eventually transform into a black slaad.





Unfortunately, I'm quite sure that those rules clearly don't allow the possibility for a black slaad to produce a baby black slaad. I would reconsider if most of you say the opposite (it's just my own interpretation anyway).

Anyway, nothing excludes MitD being born green, and after reading the rules again, I don't see why it couldn't simply grow into the other colors while twiddling its thumbs in the jungle for a few centuries.

Leave a puppy in a box, feed it, and it will STILL grow into an adult dog, even if it has never had a normal dog behavior (or gained any "dog XP").

[lio45]

Though it is a pretty good fit, I think the age thing needs to be addressed: it pretty much counters almost a few of our "founding" assumptions about the MitD.

1) thats it young
2) that its just evolving its powers

Thinking about it, I think it fits really well.

First, it doesn't need to be actually "young", just innocent and child-like.

A green slaad that was dropped in the jungle as a baby a few centuries ago is likely to display those exact characteristics... It grew more powerful with age, but no one ever told him what he could do, nor how to do it exactly, and he learned NOTHING about life from anyone, hence his innocence.

Now that he's finally gaining some experience, he's also slowly figuring out a few things, including realizing there are things he can do. (Supported by what Rich stated once about the O-Chul/MitD relationship.)

Makes complete sense to me...

Just like the puppy in my example above. Keep it in the box and feed it, then release the adult puppy into the world. "Wow, I can run!?!" "Wow, I can jump!?!"

Same thing...

[Shale]

Bear in mind that the article also describes the slaadi "spawning grounds" thus:


In the mating season, each race of slaad converges on the Spawning Stone, wresting the Stone away from the previous group, so that they may fertilize each others' internal egg sacs, and carry away the seed-like fertilized eggs for later implantation into host bodies. Sometimes, however, young slaadi are produced right there at the stone because the slaadi implant each other in their mating frenzy.

That's enough wiggle room for me.

[Optimystik]

- It mentions the Slaad returning as a larger stronger version, which would be pretty far-fetched if were to regress to an earlier stage of childhood.

Stronger than a white. There's a lot of range for a black to be stronger than a white.

And again, that line refers specifically to the evolution method, rather than any other way Rich could come up with.


- The Wiki mentions that it undergoes the same process as before, which is a ritual. I am personally not a DnD player, not do I have access in any book. But I am sure there's some sort of reference point to that.

D&D Wiki is notorious for being crammed with houserules, misinterpretations, and false information. There is no mention of a ritual in either Slaad's entry in the ELH.


Come on. You can't expect the rules to enumerate everything that they can't do!

Of course they don't, because that would overly restrict what DMs (read: Rich) could reasonably do.


Normally, you should go by what the rules say, and you should not assume that everything not explicitly stated in print as a "can't" is a "can".

The DM can absolutely rule anything that isn't a "can't" as a "can."

Rich has done this before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)


Unfortunately, I'm quite sure that those rules clearly don't allow the possibility for a black slaad to produce a baby black slaad.

They prohibit no such thing. That's the point.

[lio45]

Of course they don't, because that would overly restrict what DMs (read: Rich) could reasonably do.



The DM can absolutely rule anything that isn't a "can't" as a "can."

Rich has done this before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)



They prohibit no such thing. That's the point.

Yes, but the big difference is that as was argued many times before already, Rich has said MitD was guessable. (Not exactly that, but close enough.)

This changes a lot ot things...

Normally, a DM can rule anything he wants.

But a DM that says a hidden monster is something guessable to his fans isn't in a normal "I can make any custom change I want to that monster because I'm the DM" situation.

And in this thread, we've ALWAYS been assuming that the monsters under consideration are more or less straight from the official manuals.

Regardless, I still think being born green fits well, so we're arguing something that doesn't matter.

Besides, this is a very good point:

D&D Wiki is notorious for being crammed with houserules, misinterpretations, and false information.

Have I missed a link to something more official on slaadi? Can anyone provide one for those among us not that familiar with the monsters in the manuals?

[Optimystik]

Yes, but the big difference is that as was argued many times before already, Rich has said MitD was guessable. (Not exactly that, but close enough.)

Well it's already fulfilled that criterion, since we're, y'know, guessing it and all.


But a DM that says a hidden monster is something guessable to his fans isn't in a normal "I can make any custom change I want to that monster because I'm the DM" situation.

It's not a "change." It's an interpretation.

The rules on Slaadi birth and evolution are purposely vague, and its quite possible for one to be born spontaneously (as per Shale's post.)

The Giant can easily go this route without stepping on any toes.


And in this thread, we've ALWAYS been assuming that the monsters under consideration are more or less straight from the official manuals.

ELH is one such "official manual." Assuming the MitD is a Black Slaad, the only thing that doesn't fit with the MitD is its size... but he wouldn't be the first creature whose size Rich has tweaked in the comic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the age thing needs to be addressed: it pretty much counters almost a few of our "founding" assumptions about the MitD.

1) thats it young
2) that its just evolving its powers

Wrong on both counts: neither are founding assumptions, but post hoc explanations of evidence that is perfectly OK to disregard if you have a different interpretation.

Indeed, (1) is weak since we know that MitD is at least 30 years old, and that assumes that he was born two days before the hunters found him and knew his father for a single day. Realistically, we have to assume that he lived with his father in the jungle for several years, and then for even more years on his own. "Young" MitD is a reasonable hypothesis to a) reduce the size of the proposed creature and b) explain his innocent behaviour. But it is not the only assumption, and indeed just because it is generalised it does not mean it must be correct. And no matter what, it is not "foundational".

(2) is even more ridiculous in this sense, since it was proposed less than a week ago, and only applies to the hypothesis that MitD is psionic, which does not apply to the slaad.

I already gave a brief outline of what could have happened to MitD here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7870312&postcount=687), that requires no assumptions about mating abilities unmentioned in source books. As to his lack of experience: the source book clearly talks of age and not XP. A green will turn grey after 100 years, not "when he reaches level 10". We know that in OotS age and XP are not related, so it is not a far out assumption that MitD was stranded for centuries. As supporting evidence, 30 years are a blink of an eye to a creature that has lived 300 already, which sidesteps the problem of why MitD hasn't changed since we first saw him, if he really is a child growing up: he is not, that is just his naïve personality, combined with away-from-the-pack rearing.

Grey Wolf

[willdelve4beer]

Not sure if these have been noted as characteristics/hints:

1 Smell - apparently MitD is always apologizing for his odor.
2. As noted by one of the posters upthread, with regards to environment - MitD seemed to find sunshine & blue skies to have been strange & new. Perhaps that cuts off environments like Plains, Ocean, and perhaps Desert.

Personally, love the black slaad idea, doesn't seem to mesh with the earlier Slaad depiction, but given that was related to Elan, perhaps his general goofiness 'infected' the shoulder-slaad?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if these have been noted as characteristics/hints:

1 Smell - apparently MitD is always apologizing for his odor.
I'm not sure that tells us anything relevant. Everything smells - monsters, as a rule of thumb, aren't known for their cleanliness. The first post is cluttered as it is. Any characteristic I add to it must be relevant - i.e. give us a way to shift through a description. The fact that MitD smells has not, so far, proven to be deterministic in any way, and it is too easily determined that MitD smelling is more product of Rule of Funny (fart jokes) than an actual characteristic.


2. As noted by one of the posters upthread, with regards to environment - MitD seemed to find sunshine & blue skies to have been strange & new. Perhaps that cuts off environments like Plains, Ocean, and perhaps Desert.

I must have missed that. That interpretation is against canon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html): MitD had "always" been in the jungle before the hunters found him.


Personally, love the black slaad idea, doesn't seem to mesh with the earlier Slaad depiction, but given that was related to Elan, perhaps his general goofiness 'infected' the shoulder-slaad?

If it makes you feel better, the two shoulder demons of Belkar seem to be afraid of his shoulder Slaad. I would think that shoulder (entities) can only be as intelligent as the owner of the shoulder. In Elan's case, given he does not understand what "law" and "chaos" mean, he gets silly ones. For example: an intelligent person, in the same situation, would get the "law" arguing that letting him drop is illegal (or not, depending on circumstance), while the other would say that morality has to triumph over laws, and that he should listen to the devil and angel, and not the law.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

I must have missed that. That interpretation is against canon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html): MitD had "always" been in the jungle before the hunters found him.

I forgot that strip actually. "Dad was BIG" - I wonder... how big? And clearly, MitD wasn't raised away from his parents completely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I forgot that strip actually. "Dad was BIG" - I wonder... how big? And clearly, MitD wasn't raised away from his parents completely.

How big is impossible to determine. To all children, their parents are giants... for a while, at least. So it could be that MitD really is smaller than his father, or just that his father left before MitD started to grow into adulthood.

Also, we cannot read anything other than he knew his father - not even that that means he also knew (or even had) a mother.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

How big is impossible to determine. To all children, their parents are giants... for a while, at least. So it could be that MitD really is smaller than his father, or just that his father left before MitD started to grow into adulthood.

While that is true, his emphasis indicates that, even at the size he is now, his father is still larger. Since he's at least Medium, his dad is at least Large.


Also, we cannot read anything other than he knew his father - not even that that means he also knew (or even had) a mother.

I didn't say anything about his mother - merely that the presence of his father, for however brief a time, proves he did not simply hatch on his own (or teleport into the forest, fall through a portal etc.)

[Forbiddenwar]

Additional possibility, his father was not his biological father. Ducks imprint and follow humans around, believing them to be their mother. But yes, this is straying into "Rich created territory"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While that is true, his emphasis indicates that, even at the size he is now, his father is still larger. Since he's at least Medium, his dad is at least Large.

I disagree. You cannot deduce that (with certainty) from his words. This is MitD, remembering his father. My explanation of him remembering his father when he was just hatched fits just as well as your explanation that his father was larger then than MitD is now.


I didn't say anything about his mother - merely that the presence of his father, for however brief a time, proves he did not simply hatch on his own (or teleport into the forest, fall through a portal etc.)

You said "parents" - that implies two people. Admittedly, it could be two fathers, but, again, MitD talks of only one.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

I disagree. You cannot deduce that (with certainty) from his words. This is MitD, remembering his father. My explanation of him remembering his father when he was just hatched fits just as well as your explanation that his father was larger then than MitD is now.

Where did I say anything about certainty? I flat out said "indicates" didn't I? Sheesh.


You said "parents" - that implies two people. Admittedly, it could be two fathers, but, again, MitD talks of only one.

You can't deduce (with certainty) that his talking about one means there only was one. :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where did I say anything about certainty? I flat out said "indicates" didn't I? Sheesh.


Here: "Since he's at least Medium, his dad is at least Large." We don't know that. His father might have been medium, when he was merely small - because he had just spawned, for example.


You can't deduce (with certainty) that his talking about one means there only was one. :smalltongue:

That was my point. I'm missing yours, right now. Lets backtrack for a second: what I am trying to do is to discover what MitD might be. As such, any characteristics assigned to MitD must be grounded in evidence. The size of his father is not; what little we can deduce is already in the first post (2c: Family). Neither can we deduce that he ever met his mother, or even that his mother existed at all (as might be the case, amongst others, of the Slaad). Thus, your line "MitD wasn't raised away from his parents completely" is incorrect in one particular, to whit: "parents". Which I pointed out.

I have noticed that I did not include the possibility that his memory is tainted by him being smaller at the time; I'll add it in due course.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

Here: "Since he's at least Medium, his dad is at least Large." We don't know that. His father might have been medium, when he was merely small - because he had just spawned, for example.

You're quoting me out of context. All of that was prefaced by my use of "indicates" - I didn't think I had to repeat the qualifier in every subsequent sentence.


That was my point. I'm missing yours, right now. Lets backtrack for a second: what I am trying to do is to discover what MitD might be. As such, any characteristics assigned to MitD must be grounded in evidence. The size of his father is not; what little we can deduce is already in the first post (2c: Family). Neither can we deduce that he ever met his mother, or even that his mother existed at all (as might be the case, amongst others, of the Slaad). Thus, your line "MitD wasn't raised away from his parents completely" is incorrect in one particular, to whit: "parents". Which I pointed out.

Updating the opening post is your job. I am speculating, and therefore not every conclusion I draw has to be grounded in hard evidence - especially when there's so little to be had. Strictly speaking, we have no hard evidence that he's a black slaad either - merely indications.

[Gift Jeraff]

Regarding the language problem, maybe the OOTSiverse's slaadi just randomly string words together (as seen in #68 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html)), thus not really "talking"? A stretch, yeah, but maybe it would be worth mentioning when you list the cons for White/Black Slaad.

[Lord Bingo]

Unless someone has something new to bring to the table concerning the Slaadi, I think it is time we were done with it (and copyright issues) and moved on to greener pastures:smallsigh:.
It seems we are all more or less in agreement that a Black or White Slaad would be a great fit for MitD was it not for the spawning/age/possible copyright issues related to it. In spite of the impressive list of argument that have been presented in support of the Slaadi so far I, for one, am not a believer(thus my urge to move on:smallbiggrin:), but never the less I accept that it does warrant a prominent spot on the list of possibilities.

I would suggest we take a look at the Ghour demon (Monsters of Faerun, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour) which looks like a huge cross between a Minotaur and an Ogre, and could be a strong possibility should we choose to believe that 1) MitD might be a smaller version, or 2) that Rich does not care all that much about size.

In its favor it is incredibly strong (28) and has a very low dexterity (8) which would explain MitD's apprehensions about pulling a rope. It is reasonably intelligent and wise. It has incredible Damage Reduction (20/+2) and Spell Resistance (25) but is not immune to mind affecting spells. It has a Stunning (1d4 rounds) Roar. It can Teleport Without Error as a Spell-Like Ability. It does not normally speak Common, but only Giant and Abyssal. Apart from this it has a bunch of other demonic Spell-Like Abilities, none of which (sadly) is an ability to cause Earthquakes.

I think the Ghour would be a strong candidate. It is the sort of creature you'd expect Big Game hunters to catch (and perhaps mistake for a minotaur). Were I to ever see one (even if I mistook it for a minotaur) I would surely find it awe inspiring -to be a beautiful specimen as well as frightening.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would suggest we take a look at the Ghour demon (Monsters of Faerun, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour) which looks like a huge cross between a Minotaur and an Ogre, and could be a strong possibility should we choose to believe that 1) MitD might be a smaller version, or 2) that Rich does not care all that much about size.

In its favor it is incredibly strong (28) and has a very low dexterity (8) which would explain MitD's apprehensions about pulling a rope. It is reasonably intelligent and wise. It has incredible Damage Reduction (20/+2) and Spell Resistance (25) but is not immune to mind affecting spells. It has a Stunning (1d4 rounds) Roar. It can Teleport Without Error as a Spell-Like Ability. It does not normally speak Common, but only Giant and Abyssal. Apart from this it has a bunch of other demonic Spell-Like Abilities, none of which (sadly) is an ability to cause Earthquakes.

I think the Ghour would be a strong candidate. It is the sort of creature you'd expect Big Game hunters to catch (and perhaps mistake for a minotaur). Were I to ever see one (even if I mistook it for a minotaur) I would surely find it awe inspiring -to be a beautiful specimen as well as frightening.

Cutting to the chase: it is not that strong. In the range of candidates so far, it doesn't make the top 10, and while the number is high, we tend to look for 30+. The DR is also not good enough: I would imagine that probably Miko and certainly Belkar are carrying at least +2, if not much higher, which renders that point moot. A reduced-size of a ghour would be even weaker, too, remember.

But of course, the most relevant point against it is that you have not even attempted to explain O'Chul's escape. Without that, there is little to discuss, sorry. Somehow I missed the teleport section. Ignore this.

I can't find its stats on line, so I can't really judge that section. I'll only add that I'm generally mistrustful of demons, since Rich has made clear that demons, like angels, are personifications of their respective morality planes, and can only modify their alignment slightly - nowhere near to the amount MitD has shown. Also, demons don't usually reproduce in the normal fashion, making the "father" comment difficult to explain.


You're quoting me out of context. All of that was prefaced by my use of "indicates" - I didn't think I had to repeat the qualifier in every subsequent sentence.
To quote: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Indicate does not suggest tentativeness. Neither does present tense. But this is now a discussion about English language, which I have no interest in.


Regarding the language problem, maybe the OOTSiverse's slaadi just randomly string words together (as seen in #68 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html)), thus not really "talking"? A stretch, yeah, but maybe it would be worth mentioning when you list the cons for White/Black Slaad.

Worth mentioning in the "take into account", but too likely to be rule of funny, unfortunately.

Grey Wolf

[Darakonis]

Regarding the Ghour...

Challenge rating 12. I thought we were looking for a CR of at least 20? (Sure, templates can up the CR, but I'm firmly against any complex template theories).

As a D&D player, a CR 12 monster is practically laughable at the OotS' level.
For someone like Xykon, it would be a mosquito, and definitely not worthy of his "big reveal."

Peace
-Darakonis

[hamishspence]

The Ghour has been updated to 3.5. Twice. Once in the Players Guide to Faerun web enhancement (which updates all 3.0 Faerun monsters to 3.5) and once in Lost Empires of Faerun.

And in both, it has DR 15/good.

[Optimystik]

To quote: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Indicate does not suggest tentativeness. Neither does present tense. But this is now a discussion about English language, which I have no interest in.

No, it suggests uncertainty. I believe it is you using words incorrectly, not me.

Moving on to the Ghour - I don't think the MitD will be a demon, and I definitely don't think it will be anything setting-specific (i.e. from Faerun.)

[Lord Bingo]

I recognize that the Ghour is relatively weak challenge level wise but that does not change the fact that apart from the ability to cause earthquakes the Ghour does everything we want it to, even if it's damage reduction is a little too weak.

We don't know for certain that Belkar carries magical daggers but I'll concede that since we know Haley carries a magical bow it is highly probable.

I'm not knowledgeable about the reproductive habits of demons so I'll have to look into that, but if they are generally not the offspring of procreative activities that would certainly be a problem. I do, however know of at least one demon -the Draegloth- which is created by the unholy union between an ascending high priestess of the drow goddess Lolth and a Glabrezu. Unfortunately I can find no reference to how the Ghour come into being.

[Lord Bingo]

in⋅di⋅cate 
–verb (used with object), -cat⋅ed, -cat⋅ing.
1. to be a sign of; betoken; evidence; show

[Darakonis]

Lord Bingo, how do you reconcile the low challenge rating, though? I agree that it otherwise fits the bill fairly well, but the challenge rating is a deal breaker for me.

Regarding the "indicate" discussion, I think a more appropriate word for what Optimystik meant was "suggest." "Indicate" does seem much more definite in statement, but this is semantics -- we all now understand what Optimystik meant.

Peace
-Darakonis

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I recognize that the Ghour is relatively weak challenge level wise but that does not change the fact that apart from the ability to cause earthquakes the Ghour does everything we want it to, even if it's damage reduction is a little too weak.

No, it doesn't. The first thing that MitD is, regardless of any other consideration, is being a challenge to the heroes: Rich said as much in the commentaries. CR12 is barely a challenge for the party around the start of the strip, and now that their levels range between 12 and 16 it wouldn't really pose a challenge at all.

And again, if for whatever reason MitD is a stunted Ghour, why would it be as strong as if he had been full size? It is either too big, or too weak, and there really is no way around that.


We don't know for certain that Belkar carries magical daggers but I'll concede that since we know Haley carries a magical bow it is highly probable.

A quick check of the class and level geekery thread tells me that they do indeed think that Belkar carries magical daggers; I do not follow the thread, though, so I am not privy to the logic behind their assertion. That said, Belkar is a very competent damage dealer. If he was still using non-magical daggers, he wouldn't be.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

"Plus, your furry-footed friend just made me his temporary magic dagger repository"

[Kish]

No, it doesn't. The first thing that MitD is, regardless of any other consideration, is being a challenge to the heroes: Rich said as much in the commentaries. CR12 is barely a challenge for the party around the start of the strip, and now that their levels range between 12 and 16 it wouldn't really pose a challenge at all.
Not to mention Xykon and Redcloak expecting him to beat up an ancient silver dragon.

[Lord Bingo]

Lord Bingo, how do you reconcile the low challenge rating, though? I agree that it otherwise fits the bill fairly well, but the challenge rating is a deal breaker for me.

Admittedly CR was not on the forefront of my mind when I happened upon the Ghour. So in answer of your question: I cannot reconcile the low CR:smallfrown: If this breaks the deal then the Ghour is of our list.


"Plus, your furry-footed friend just made me his temporary magic dagger repository"

I missed that one:smalleek: Belkar carries magical daggers. No doubt about it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Admittedly CR was not on the forefront of my mind when I happened upon the Ghour. So in answer of your question: I cannot reconcile the low CR:smallfrown: If this breaks the deal then the Ghour is of our list.

Nah, not off the list. But not in the forerunners, either. I will add a section on the power level of MitD in the next update, I think, but I'd say that CR18 at the very minimum. That would fit with the rest of Team Evil: RC is 15+ - likely higher - and of course Xykon is epic - 27 (!) or more, according to the other thread.

Grey Wolf

[Darakonis]

Honestly, I seriously thought the MitD was a grue for a while. I no longer believe this to be the case, but here was my reasoning...



All this is based on the wikipedia entry for the grue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_%28monster%29), which heavily references the Zork games and lore.


First, to address the counter-argument, "The theory that it's a grue is roughly comparable to using an unknown creature's constant longing for garlic as evidence that it's a vampire."

Humans smoke, eat junk food, have a desire for foods they are allergic to, partake in death-defying activities for fun... Why can't a fictional creature be attracted to something that isn't in his best health interest? Especially when said creature seems to differ in many ways from others of its kind?

Furthermore, the effects that light has on a grue are inconsistent in the lore, and:


some games imply that grues find levels of light ordinary for humans to be intolerably, blindingly painful but can nonetheless survive it (such as in Planetfall, where an obviously grue-like creature exists in a lit laboratory, "squinting and cursing at the light").

In 3.0 D&D, orcs have an aversion to sunlight, suffering a -1 penalty to attack rolls in bright sunlight, yet we see them operate during the day all the time.

Arguably, a grue's severe aversion to light may be attributed to living its entire life in darkness -- however if one were raised in the twilight under a forest canopy, it may be less averse to light than others of its kind...



***

Addressing the Section 2 Physical Characteristics of GW's initial post in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134194).

Age: Nothing about grues covers age or maturity, so there are no contradictions to be made here. It was, however, noted that baby grues do exist, and that they have parents:


Wishbringer allows the player to stumble upon a baby grue and get a good look at it before its parents return

Appearance: Contrary to what has been said in this thread, grues are not invisible, and have been seen in Zork lore. It has been said to have:


"slavering fangs", "razor-sharp claws"

and appear to be a:


"horrible, multi-fanged creature"

and have:


a fish-mouthed head, razor-sharp claws and [...] fur all over

A baby grue was described as:


"horrid little beast with red eyes and slavering fangs"

Furthermore:


grues' eyes give off a very small amount of light

I have no response to why some would describe a grue as "beautiful," other than corrective eye surgery was not yet invented...

Body: The grue has a body, and is not some ethereal presence in the darkness as others suggested.

Diet: The most iconic phrase attached to grues is:


It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.


Furthermore:


Its favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable appetite is tempered by its fear of light.

The MitD is constantly hungry and has no qualms with eating adult people.

Gender: Grues likely have genders, since they have parents:


Wishbringer allows the player to stumble upon a baby grue and get a good look at it before its parents return

Limbs: As stated above, grues have claws, and thus likely have limbs. Furthermore, it must be quite difficult to manipulate small objects like crayons or pull ropes with claws.

Head: As stated above, grues have eyes and a fish-mouthed head. Although the eyes are stated as being red, not every human has the same eye color, and red eyes may simply be in the baby stage.

Maturity: Nothing is known of the aging/maturation of grues, so nothing contradicts here.

Size: Nothing is stated about the size of grues, though they do need to fit in dungeon corridors, which likely restricts them to Large.

Sleep: Nothing is mentioned about the sleep cycle of grues, so no contradictions here.

To sum up Appearance: the main issue is that some described the MitD as "beautiful."


***

Addressing the Section 2 Abilities of GW's initial post:

The powers of the grue are not defined, however they are known to be deadly -- people rarely survive encounters with grues. Just because you are "likely to be eaten by a grue," doesn't exclude that you may first by stomped or clawed or etc. Rich has a lot of leeway here. Since grues are inexplicably never cornered by adventurers with torches, they likely possess some form of teleportation ability, and since this ability is not from a D&D book, there are no restrictions on its use.

I will address Speech:

Grues have been known to:


[gurgle] in agony and [tear] at its fur (when exposed to light)

Furthermore, grues make:


gurgling and growling (...) [sounds]

which could imply that they do not normally speak common.


***

Addressing the Section 2 Other Characteristics of GW's initial post:

Categories and Drawing Clues do not need to be addressed.

Environment: Grues typically exist in pitch darkness. A jungle would be an odd place to find a grue -- though note that jungles are not bright, shiny places, due to the dense canopies that block most sunlight from reaching the ground.

Family: As stated above, grues do have parents.

Knowledge of MitD: Since grues are rarely seen, most people would not recognize one.

Species: There's no shortage of grues.

Mental Resistance: Needn't be addressed.


***

Summary

The grue's two most defining characteristics are:

- Insatiable appetite
- Remains in darkness

That's how I would grossly define the MitD, apart from adding something about his childlike innocence/behavior -- which, again, seems to be aberrant to most creatures of its type. Further, the desire to remain in darkness is irrelevant -- for 700 strips, the monster has remained in darkness, and we call it the Monster in the Darkness.


I'm not trying to convince anyone that the MitD is a grue. I am trying to convince you that a grue is not as stupid a theory as some would have you believe. Grues have a rich history in gaming, even appearing in older versions of D&D, and if Rich chose to make the MitD a grue, he would be paying homage to a tongue-in-cheek creature that made every gamer in the 80s fear the darkness.


Peace
-Darakonis

[Kish]

Humans smoke, eat junk food, have a desire for foods they are allergic to, partake in death-defying activities for fun... Why can't a fictional creature be attracted to something that isn't in his best health interest?
The point, is that the entire argument for him being a grue hinges on something imposed from without: him being kept in constant darkness. By Xykon and Redcloak. For the time he's been with them. Grues--in your own quotes--are described as fearing and avoiding light, but that's a side issue. The main issue is that the darkness the creature in the darkness is kept in is in no way a personality trait of his.

Your argument also completely ignores the teleportation and (now) the ability to recognize Tsukiko's ritual as half a ritual, leaving a grue with the same problems as a tarrasque--and a comparable (read: close to nonexistent) amount of evidence in favor, too. And when did grues appear in D&D? (Which book?) To my knowledge, they're only found in Zork. They could theoretically be massively damage-resistant and strong enough to knock Miko and Windstriker through walls and cause earthquakes because they have no D&D stats, not because they do have stats and those stats include damage resistance and 30+ Strength.

[lio45]

Nah, not off the list. But not in the forerunners, either. I will add a section on the power level of MitD in the next update, I think, but I'd say that CR18 at the very minimum. That would fit with the rest of Team Evil: RC is 15+ - likely higher - and of course Xykon is epic - 27 (!) or more, according to the other thread.

Grey Wolf

Xykon has given me the impression that he considers MitD to have a higher CR than himself... Do you all agree?

Xykon never stated it that clearly, but the sum of his actions and comments about MitD do give me that feeling.

For example, it makes no sense saying something like "You cannot possibly win against my team when I have got THIS on my side!" if the monster you're referring to is weaker than yourself...

Another point against the black slaad is that I don't believe it would make anyone puke or get sick.

The speech thing, though, is in fact a positive, IMO. We know MitD DOES speak, and in Common. I find the idea that MitD is a creature that normally speaks, and that the BGHs don't know absolutely everything about every monster, is in fact way simpler and more appealing to me than the possibility that MitD is a creature that normally cannot speak but actually does speak.

Think about it: what we do here is look at MitD characteristics and select monsters that match them, right? Well, MitD speaks, and in Common no less.

Instead of treating this like any other observed characteristic, we're doing the opposite -- looking for a monster which isn't supposed to speak. Why not assume instead that the BGHs aren't necessarily absolute experts on what exactly a rare and epic monster they're very surprised to see can do or cannot do?

[Darakonis]

The point, is that the entire argument for him being a grue hinges on something imposed from without: him being kept in constant darkness. By Xykon and Redcloak. For the time he's been with them. Grues--in your own quotes--are described as fearing and avoiding light, but that's a side issue. The main issue is that the darkness the creature in the darkness is kept in is in no way a personality trait of his.

Your argument also completely ignores the teleportation and (now) the ability to recognize Tsukiko's ritual as half a ritual, leaving a grue with the same problems as a tarrasque--and a comparable (read: close to nonexistent) amount of evidence in favor, too. And when did grues appear in D&D? (Which book?) To my knowledge, they're only found in Zork. They could theoretically be massively damage-resistant and strong enough to knock Miko and Windstriker through walls and cause earthquakes because they have no D&D stats, not because they do have stats and those stats include damage resistance and 30+ Strength.
Being in the darkness is not a personality trait of a grue, either.

Imposed or not, it is one of MitD most defining characteristics -- so defining that it is part of his name. Perhaps Xykon and/or RC keep him in the darkness because, apart from the whole "big reveal," they know it is the habitat in which such a creature thrives best. Frankly, I would rather two intelligent BBEGs have a better reason for constantly keeping the MitD in the dark other than the "big reveal."

I did not ignore the teleportation. I addressed it, specifically:


Since grues are inexplicably never cornered by adventurers with torches, they likely possess some form of teleportation ability, and since this ability is not from a D&D book, there are no restrictions on its use.

Grues made a short-lived appearance in D&D in the 1980s. I cannot cite a specific book, but I am not making this up -- everything is from the wiki entry.

Further, Rich never claimed the MitD can be found in a D&D book, nor that it has statistics that measure its powers. Are we ruling out all creatures that are not present in rulebooks on the basis that we cannot numerically measure their DR or STR?

Grues are basically known to be death sentences for adventurers. Extreme strength and damage reduction can simply be ways of displaying to the reader how powerful of a creature it is -- before that, we only had Xykon's and RC's word.


Again, I do not believe the MitD is a grue. I believe the MitD is a creature from a 3e D&D source book. Nor do I claim that there is a bullet-proof argument for the MitD to be a grue: I'm simply saying that I believe it's a theory that is just as valid (or more so) than some of the ones we've seen in the first post.

Peace
-Darakonis

[Kish]

I'm simply saying that I believe it's a theory that is just as valid (or more so) than some of the ones we've seen in the first post.
Oh, quite. But, the first post is meant to be an exhaustive list of everything that anyone has ever suggested, I believe. Grue is there already. Avoiding light by their own choice is very much a personality trait of a grue, and very much not in evidence here.

I'd say, as a theory, "grue" is at around the same level as "tarrasque." I don't think that's a good level. Given that we agree the creature in the darkness is not a grue, I'm not sure what you're looking for. Do you want it promoted to Forerunners even though you don't think he's a grue?

Sorry I missed the teleportation reference in your post. Recognizing the ritual still doesn't fit (for a grue, or for a tarrasque), though.

[Darakonis]

I'd say, as a theory, "grue" is at around the same level as "tarrasque."
I agree!

That's why I'd like it promoted from "one-off" [Ideas that have been proposed, but no-one (sometimes not even the poster proposing it) was particularly attached to them] to the tarrasque's level :) A forerunner, surely not, but it deserves more respect than it's getting ^^

Although, whereas a tarrasque is an impossibility, I do not believe the grue to be an impossibility. An improbability, yes. But the grue's nebulous nature is both a strength and a weakness -- you cannot prove it is a grue, but you cannot disprove it either. It's Rich's ace in the hole-- if we figure out what the MitD is prematurely, he can always just change it to a grue in the end ;)

Peace
-Darakonis

EDIT: Why don't my smileys turn into smileys :(

[Math_Mage]

EDIT: Why don't my smileys turn into smileys :(

Because the smileys key off tags like : smallfrown : and : smallbiggrin : (spaces added) rather than :D, :), :P, :( etc.
:smalltongue:

[Sereg]

I feel the necessity to comment. It is true that grues were statted in 2nd ed. However, it is not true that they were never updated to 3.5. They were. In Complete Arcane. One should know, however, that D&D grues are very different from Zork grues. It is possible that the MiTD is a grue with a mix of characteristics from both, which, while unlikely, wouldn't be a bad fit.

D&D grues are elementals. Therefore, it would have to be an earth grue (chaggrin) to have a solid body. Also, this fits with the "rock joke" and makes earthquake less of a stretch. They are described as liking to eat the blood of prime material creatures. They aren't described as having an aversion to light. Grues also contain "spell objects" which could explain MiTD's understanding of magic. They are medium to large in size. Unfortunately they have a CR of...wait for it...2. And not much in the way of other apropriate powers. Still, as I said, it could have characteristics of Zork grues. The other issue is that they are always NE, but that could be less of a problem as they're from an elemental, not a morality plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon has given me the impression that he considers MitD to have a higher CR than himself... Do you all agree?
<snip>


No, I don't agree. Xykon is an egomaniac. He is not the kind to suffer creatures more stronger than he is, because they could conceivably decide to take over.

Furthermore, your main point is that it wouldn't make sense to reveal a monster weaker than he is. On the contrary, this makes a fairly good logical sense. The adventuring parties that reach Xykon have to know they are about to meet a lich. As such, they will be prepared to face a powerful undead sorcerer. There are ways, and strategies, to handle a fight such at that, I'm sure: spells they can cast, actions they can take to beat Xykon.

BUT, if at the last moment, Xykon reveals a powerful monster that is very different in his fighting abilities from that of himself - an enormously strong, epic-level monster like the Protean - that changes the fight completely. The adventuring party's careful strategy is now out of the window, and the rough-and-ready approach to fights that Xykon prefers (blast them with spells, and sort out the dead at the end) is suddenly much more likely to succeed. For this to work, MitD doesn't have to be more powerful than Xykon, only more powerful than the adventuring party, which now has to face two high level monsters, different enough they can't neutralize them both (as an example, if they were thinking of using spheres of silence to prevent spellcasting, that would not help with MitD - and maybe those spheres had taken over spell slots that would normally have spells that would be helpful in a fight against whatever MitD is).


Another point against the black slaad is that I don't believe it would make anyone puke or get sick.
It's a ugly humanoid toad. Not exatly pleasant on the eyes. That said, size-wise, I'm far more liking the white one (does the white one still have teleportation?).


The speech thing, though, is in fact a positive, IMO. We know MitD DOES speak, and in Common. I find the idea that MitD is a creature that normally speaks, and that the BGHs don't know absolutely everything about every monster, is in fact way simpler and more appealing to me than the possibility that MitD is a creature that normally cannot speak but actually does speak.

Think about it: what we do here is look at MitD characteristics and select monsters that match them, right? Well, MitD speaks, and in Common no less.

Instead of treating this like any other observed characteristic, we're doing the opposite -- looking for a monster which isn't supposed to speak. Why not assume instead that the BGHs aren't necessarily absolute experts on what exactly a rare and epic monster they're very surprised to see can do or cannot do?

The short answer is that Stereotypical Big Game Hunters always know everything about what they hunt. The clue is precisely the stereotypical bit you left out; they are like Steve Irwins on steroids, finding every creature completely fascinating and knowing everything about them from the go.

The alternative argument is that Rich is giving us clues, and that scene feels like a lampshade hanging on the fact that MitD talks, but the creature type doesn't. Why put that in at all, otherwise?


I agree!

That's why I'd like it promoted from "one-off" [Ideas that have been proposed, but no-one (sometimes not even the poster proposing it) was particularly attached to them] to the tarrasque's level :) A forerunner, surely not, but it deserves more respect than it's getting ^^

Wait, now you want me to demote it from "proposed ideas" to "discarded ideas"? That's a step down! No, grue is fine where it is. Proposed, discussed, but not particularly good fit. But I'll reconsider it when we hit the next 0 number.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

It's a ugly humanoid toad. Not exatly pleasant on the eyes. That said, size-wise, I'm far more liking the white one (does the white one still have teleportation?).
Indeed it does.

[Darakonis]

Wait, now you want me to demote it from "proposed ideas" to "discarded ideas"? That's a step down! No, grue is fine where it is. Proposed, discussed, but not particularly good fit. But I'll reconsider it when we hit the next 0 number.
Ah, whoops. I guess I misinterpreted the order in which the categories were listed to represent a hierarchy. In that case, grue is fine where it is, but it would be nice to see the pros and cons like the other entries.

Peace
-Darakonis

[lio45]

The short answer is that Stereotypical Big Game Hunters always know everything about what they hunt.

Agreed, but they were in a jungle, so we know with certainty that MitD isn't "what they were hunting". (I don't know what those SBGHs were doing in that jungle, but it's clear they knew everything about the creatures they were expecting to capture there.)

Now, the fact that they DID know things about it is in itself a feat... put any random, out-of-place, rare monster in front of them, that they're not hunting at all at the moment (since it just popped out of nowhere in an environment that's not his), and they STILL can tell you several things about it? Wow. That's enough to qualify for being considered a Steve Irwin on steroids.



The alternative argument is that Rich is giving us clues, and that scene feels like a lampshade hanging on the fact that MitD talks, but the creature type doesn't. Why put that in at all, otherwise?

Well, because it sounds cool in the dialogue, for one.

Notice that they didn't say "how come it speaks, those aren't supposed to speak!" or anything like that.

They just pointed out that it was speaking, and that it was impressive/surprising.

If MitD is a very rare epic creature, which is likely, then I don't think expecting SBGHs to not know everything about it is such a stretch.

Regardless, it's either

1) assume the SBGHs weren't aware of the fact that a white slaad is supposed to speak

or

2) forget about the white slaad as a possibility.

What do you prefer, #1 or #2?
I'd pick #1...

FWIW,

But, if the hunters didn't expect something that looks like a big pale white humanoid toad to speak...

[Lord Bingo]

Is it too much of a stretch to simply grant that the STBG's know something about the monsters/creatures they hunt but not everything? I think not. Surely the point of being a STBG is to discover/uncover the nature of the beasts that surround us. They strive to know everything about every creature.
To me it is clear that the STBG's were indeed surprised that this creature can talk. This indicates that they take MitD for either of a type of creature which is not expected talk or that MitD looks similar to such a creature.

This, however, changes nothing regarding whether or not the Black/White Slaad fits the bill as MitD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Notice that they didn't say "how come it speaks, those aren't supposed to speak!" or anything like that.
Errr... no, it is something like that. They say it is "unbelievable" it can talk, which indicates they do would not have believed it could talk, had they not heard him talk. I.e. "these" are not supposed to speak, or they would have believed it could.

Can this indicate it is a baby? Yes, certainly. A two-week old baby talking is "unbelievable". But so is a horse, for that matter. Or it could be, as Lord Bingo has pointed out, as have others before him, that it is a mimic creature of some kind, looking like something else that cannot talk.

But I'm not that ready to believe that the SBGH are just across-the-board ignorant and/or lying. They are too stereotypical for that. The only thing that scene is missing is a big neon sign pointing at MitD reading "This is a Clue!".


If MitD is a very rare epic creature, which is likely, then I don't think expecting SBGHs to not know everything about it is such a stretch.

Regardless, it's either

1) assume the SBGHs weren't aware of the fact that a white slaad is supposed to speak

or

2) forget about the white slaad as a possibility.

What do you prefer, #1 or #2?
I'd pick #1...

As arguments go, this is at the bottom of the barrel. Reminds me of Pascal's wager. I'm sorry, but my feelings about any of the proposed ideas do not weight on the evidence. Does that mean that, as I interpret the evidence, slaad is not a perfect fit? Certainly. I'll say it clearly: slaad is a good idea, but it has three minor things against it: it usually can talk, and thus it wouldn't be unbelievable it did so. It is difficult to understand how a creature that has existed for more than 200 years would have MitD's personality. And it might not be legal for Rich to use it.

But, compared against the kind of problems the other entires have, it will remain at the top of the list until someone else comes with a better idea. The best thing about the slaad is not that it is a perfect match, but that finally we have something that fits better than snorlax (and the masses rejoiced!).


Ah, whoops. I guess I misinterpreted the order in which the categories were listed to represent a hierarchy. In that case, grue is fine where it is, but it would be nice to see the pros and cons like the other entries.

Peace
-Darakonis

Please note that in most entries, I only list the cons, mostly because it is a lot of work otherwise. But since you requested it, I'll give the grue a full entry next time I update.

Grey Wolf

[Dragero]

Is he posibly a........half-giant (From EPH)? Wouldn`t be a legal issue, SRD material. Strong, psionic so he can teleport/whatever it`s called. Ugly.....maybe more...

He would have to be a high level to be powerfull, but w/e.

Also:

Anybody noticed that he says somthing like:

"Fine, but good luck reading half a spell/scroll/tablet" In one of the newer comics? That means he`s smart, or at least knows magic.

[Lord Bingo]

Or it could be, as Lord Bingo has pointed out, as have others before him, that it is a mimic creature of some kind, looking like something else that cannot talk.

But I'm not that ready to believe that the SBGH are just across-the-board ignorant and/or lying. They are too stereotypical for that. The only thing that scene is missing is a big neon sign pointing at MitD reading "This is a Clue!".


Actually what I meant is something that looks like one creature but really is another, not purposefully mimicing it. -like a Blink Dog which for all intends and purposes look like an ordinary dog until it all of a sudden disappears, or the various forms of Molds found in Dungeons.
This might be the reason that Red Cloak recognizes that MitD could kill everyone in the circus: because he recognized the subtleties that reveals what MitD really is.

Unfortunately this brings me no nearer to uncovering the truth of what MitD is. However, it does suggest that we might look for a creature that could easily be mistaken for something else by even experienced parties.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually what I meant is something that looks like one creature but really is another, not purposefully mimicing it. -like a Blink Dog which for all intends and purposes look like an ordinary dog until it all of a sudden disappears, or the various forms of Molds found in Dungeons.
This might be the reason that Red Cloak recognizes that MitD could kill everyone in the circus: because he recognized the subtleties that reveals what MitD really is.

Unfortunately this brings me no nearer to uncovering the truth of what MitD is. However, it does suggest that we might look for a creature that could easily be mistaken for something else by even experienced parties.

Yes, I understood you; I choose mimic on purpose, because it is an extension of what you said: it includes not just creatures that might be confused with another due to similar looks (e.g. nightmare/horse), but also creatures that purposedly change their shape to hide (e.g. the phoenix in Pratchett's Lords and Ladies). Either would sidestep the SBGH, although I doubt either case. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Grey Wolf

[Optimystik]

Is he posibly a........half-giant (From EPH)? Wouldn`t be a legal issue, SRD material. Strong, psionic so he can teleport/whatever it`s called. Ugly.....maybe more...

The hunters scupper this one too - it's not unbelievable that a half-giant could talk, it's odd for them to be hunting one (baby or otherwise) and they don't really count as "monsters."

[lio45]

No, I don't agree. Xykon is an egomaniac. He is not the kind to suffer creatures more stronger than he is, because they could conceivably decide to take over.

I completely disagree. IMO, Xykon loves power, and would certainly like it if he could control a creature stronger than himself and make it his minion.

We know there are creatures stronger than Xykon out there. So, should Xykon ever meet a creature stronger than him (a very real possibility), how do you think he would react? I absolutely believe he'd be "hmmm, how can I make this thing my minion", not "I like to be the most powerful in my own circle, I don't want this thing around me"

Also, did you actually just bring up that MitD "could conceivably decide to take over"? You're a funny guy.

(Just to make the point clear, the object of this part of the discussion is that I personally think we should consider in our search that Xykon's own CR is a lower boundary to MitD's.)


Furthermore, your main point is that it wouldn't make sense to reveal a monster weaker than he is.

Not exactly. My point was that the particular way Xykon wanted to reveal MitD kinda implies MitD is the strongest thing in the room by a fair bit. In my opinion, of course.

Moreover, there isn't only the reveal: there were also various other little bits of speech from Xykon out there that did contribute to reinforcing my belief that MitD > Xykon over those hundreds of comics, but I can't link to anything specific for now. The reveal was simply the first example that came to mind...


On the contrary, this makes a fairly good logical sense. The adventuring parties that reach Xykon have to know they are about to meet a lich. As such, they will be prepared to face a powerful undead sorcerer. There are ways, and strategies, to handle a fight such at that, I'm sure: spells they can cast, actions they can take to beat Xykon.

BUT, if at the last moment, Xykon reveals a powerful monster that is very different in his fighting abilities from that of himself - an enormously strong, epic-level monster like the Protean - that changes the fight completely. The adventuring party's careful strategy is now out of the window, and the rough-and-ready approach to fights that Xykon prefers (blast them with spells, and sort out the dead at the end) is suddenly much more likely to succeed. For this to work, MitD doesn't have to be more powerful than Xykon, only more powerful than the adventuring party, which now has to face two high level monsters, different enough they can't neutralize them both (as an example, if they were thinking of using spheres of silence to prevent spellcasting, that would not help with MitD - and maybe those spheres had taken over spell slots that would normally have spells that would be helpful in a fight against whatever MitD is).

That kind of planning would be very un-Xykon-like... very Redcloak, yes, but Xykon? Nah.

What actually makes sense for the stereotypical big bad villain is to possess an even bigger and badder minion, to be revealed at the proper time, i.e. the big final battle against the PCs. Now THAT would be behavior typical of the Xykon we know in the comic!



Errr... no, it is something like that. They say it is "unbelievable" it can talk, which indicates they do would not have believed it could talk, had they not heard him talk. I.e. "these" are not supposed to speak, or they would have believed it could.

Monsters generally don't speak Common. Unless you know for SURE that it's not supposed to speak Common, it will be very surprising to see it does.

Let's consider that the SBGHs have a list of the features they know for sure about this very rare epic monster that they're not hunting (which, as I said already, I would consider quite a feat of monster knowledge).

Consider that there are a few things on that list, but nothing regarding speech. (It's Large, it's got a CR of 32, it can Stomp, etc. but just nothing re: speech.)

You think that them being amazed at this monster speaking in Common wouldn't fit?


But I'm not that ready to believe that the SBGH are just across-the-board ignorant and/or lying. They are too stereotypical for that. The only thing that scene is missing is a big neon sign pointing at MitD reading "This is a Clue!".

No one ever asked you to "believe that the SBGH are just across-the-board ignorant and/or lying".

I consider that the SBGHs are very knowledgeable about monsters, yet don't know EVERY SINGLE THING about every monster in existence including epic ones that totally aren't supposed to be in the area where they're hunting.

So, I ask you to believe that the SBGHs are extremely knowledgeable about monsters, but that they are a bit short of possessing absolute universal monster knowledge.

I know it's a clue, and that's precisely why I'm trying to sweep that one clue under the rug, because this is a clue that 1) doesn't fit our favorite forerunner and 2) can be eliminated more or less easily (by simply assuming the SBGHs don't possess absolute ultimate knowledge, a not-so-unreasonable assumption).



I'll say it clearly: slaad is a good idea, but it has three minor things against it: it usually can talk, and thus it wouldn't be unbelievable it did so. It is difficult to understand how a creature that has existed for more than 200 years would have MitD's personality. And it might not be legal for Rich to use it.

Three minor things.

1) It usually can talk

I think this isn't a problem, and I've explained why. If I can manage to convince people, we might be able to get this one off the list.

2) It is difficult to understand how a creature that has existed for more than 200 years would have MitD's personality.

Really? I don't agree. A creature that has grown up in total isolation in a completely foreign environment is likely to have that personality, IMO, regardless of the number of years that passed. In his jungle situation, MitD wouldn't develop ANYTHING personality-wise in a typical year, just eat and get one year older. Repeat that 200+ times and you get current MitD.

3) And it might not be legal for Rich to use it.

Unless I'm mistaken, it would be just as legal as using this huecuva, right?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

I know MitD has way more exposure, but if it's a D&D monster, I'm almost sure it's fair game, though (I'm not a lawyer, of course).

Anyway, wouldn't the ideas of a Sorcerer Lich, a Goblin Cleric, etc. be just as legally protected as any D&D monster? Those, we know for sure are usable by Rich...


But, compared against the kind of problems the other entires have, it will remain at the top of the list until someone else comes with a better idea. The best thing about the slaad is not that it is a perfect match, but that finally we have something that fits better than snorlax (and the masses rejoiced!).

I agree that it's at the top of the list, and very promising, which is exactly the reason why I'm working for it, against you ;)