MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) is copyrighted 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
What is probably the most common misconception about Rich's words in this thread is the following: "It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.

Start of Darkness Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's First look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"


Section 1b: Other Info
Legal IssuesMany of the ideas presented in the thread have the same base problem: they are Intellectual Property of a company, and they have not been released to the general public. An author - particularly one selling books for money - may only make use of such creatures under Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) guidelines, the most relevant of which is Parody, since it is the one used (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html) by Rich. So long as he makes a joke out of it, Rich can use protected intellectual properties, and he has in a few occasions. However, there would be no fair use in taking a Protected character like, say, Mickey Mouse, and making him one of the main antagonists of the comic. Instead, if discovered, Rich could end in a whole lot of legal trouble, and thus it is very unlikely he would use such character.
It has been argued that Rich could also get away with copyright infringement under the "added value" clause that allows the use of a copyrighted creation if the creation is developed in a new way (see the Obama "Hope (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/2231258092_43d8e672b5.jpg)" poster, which was based on an AP photograph). This would not apply, as far as we can tell, to trademarked creations.

Please note that at no point has an IP lawyer commented on this issue, and as such it may be wrong.
The Escape
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges.
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subejcts of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is, however, no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)



Section 1c: Useful Links

Every single MitD Strip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6259526&postcount=68) (probably not being maintained)
lothos' explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR




Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1b SoD Cannon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
BodyRedCloak suggest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. He also leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker). The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other.
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html).


MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.

SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large).
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries)
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
RedCloak was able to lift him and his box onto a wagon in SoD

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into Account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into Account:

It could indicate piercing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense.

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has all the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into Account:

Difficulties with the teleportation spell can be waved away by Plot Requirement, or by suggesting MitD's box has a Dimensional Anchor (which can be read to not stop the spell, only the caster). Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it is used offensively in OotS, although never successfully due to saving throws)
It has been pointed out that if it where a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not a spell-like ability or supernatural ability). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words).
However:

MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, or be a monster which can be psionic or not depending on the campaign setting). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but can be used as raw material
Speechthe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.

Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following:
- NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Elemental (has a body)
- NOT Ooze (has a body)
- NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Challenge RatingRich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at otr above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).
Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" by another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters and RedCloak (see Section 1a) have claimed to know what he is, while what looks like a wizard in the circus audience admitted he'd never seen anything like it. MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.




Section 3: Proposed Ideas
Section 3a: ForerunnersThis ideas have been shown to be more resilient than most to scrutiny. They don't fit, but the objections to them are small rather than large:

Dread LinnormPros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep


Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm)Pros:

Great strength (53)
teleportation (plane shift) abilities
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Has no languages, thus being surprising it can talk.

Cons:

it's powers are psionic-based (see 2b Psionics).
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape)

Templated CreatureA whole range of possibilities, it suggests MitD is a stack of Templates rather than a specific monster type
Pros: Can be templated to have:

Teleportation
Psionics
Earthquake

Cons:

No Wish template
Probably violates the "can be guessed" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these"

Proposed combinations:

half giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)


SlaadWhite/Black slaads only. Current Top Contender
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk. Unless, that is, slaads usually talk like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) (but this is probably Rule of Funny)


Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Discarded Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that discards them. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
TarrasqueTarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species), far bigger than can fit under an umbrella and, at CR20, no match for the Tower's dragon.
Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually").
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 1b Legal Issues)

Diawolf
Domo-kun
FF Black Mage
FF Red Mage
Godzilla & pals
Heffalump
Kirby
SnorlaxSecond best fit so far (and used to be best before White Slaad), since "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes", is known for its huge appetite and its sleeping. It also grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Shadow (from Babylon 5)
Skull (from PvP)
Tonberri
Vatch (from Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (from Babylon 5)
Yoshi
Q (from Star Trek)

Section 3d: One-off ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but no-one (sometimes not even the poster proposing it) was particularly attached to them

AnaximConstruct, no teleportation.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 26, greater barghest is a mere 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


BraxatNot particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
Daoaka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
Earth ElementalUnstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
Ephemeral HangmanPros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

FormianTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Genie/Djinnwhile able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Gibbering OrbCan't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before"
GlabrezuPros: Access to wish
Fairly powerful
Cons: Too big
No parent
Unlikely to change morality (since it is a denizen of a morality plane)
Low CR
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm)Too many eyes, and unclear how it accounts for the escape.
Grey Slaadcan teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation).
Ha-NagaAccess to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.
Half-GiantStrong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accoutns for circus scene and the escape.
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
Li Lung (Earth Dragon)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Neh-Thalgguincorporeal
Nightmare BeastPros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
Red eyes

Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend)Cons:

Pit Fiends don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Planetar AngelHas cleric levels
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Not strong enough, too small.
Shadow Dragon
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

SolarCons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

SphinxNot really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (aka Son of Cthulhu)strength difficult to pin down. Amount of eyes difficult to pin down. Etc. But also thanks to such plasticity, fits fairly well.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Truly Horrid Umber HulkFairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm)revolting sight, but can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
WarforgedConstruct
WendigoVery strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
ZodarVery strong, and can cast wish (once in a lifetime). However, it's a construct - wouldn't require sleep. Also, looks like a obsidian statue of a 6-foot armored soldier, not something that would make people vomit.

Section 3e: Joke Ideas

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/funny-pictures-you-have-a-very-dangerous-box.jpg
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lorch/humor/gazebo.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):
-A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
-It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
-Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
-Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
-It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
-I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
-The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
Chuck Norris



Version History
0.5 Half-way through, I hope. Still a lot to do, but posting to "save" current progress
0.5.1 A few typos corrected (thanks, Dancing Fox!)
0.6 Re-structred the spoilers, as per Shale's suggestion, continued to fill in section 3
0.7 Combed 15 pages of the old thread, general clean up
0.8 Up to page 30. Getting there!
0.9 Page 40. 10 to go!
1.0 Old thread combed to the best of my ability
1.0.1 Added a bit more detail to Tarrasque
1.0.2 Added mouth to list of physical characteristics
1.2 Updated to page 10 of this thread
1.3 Added quote from DStP that definitely assigns the escape to MitD
1.3.9 Added a section on teleportation, adapted from this lothos' post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7722045&postcount=273)
1.4 Updated to page 20 of this thread
1.6 Updated to page 40 of this thread

[Acero]

my 'it's a Warforged' idea already got blown out of the water, so I'll
just congratulate you on how you presented the information.

Good luck finding out whatever it is.

-Acero

[Nerdanel]

Some points:

- Spell-like abilities do not use verbal (or other) components. If "Escape" was spell-like (or psi-like) the MitD wouldn't needed to have to say its actual name.
- Plane Shift does not have to planeshift the caster, and such an interpretation is supported by the comic where it's more than once used offensively (though to no effect due to successful saving throws). (However, planeshifting two creatures without the caster coming along is a problem.)
- Redcloak's ignorance shuts out the MitD being an inherently psionic monster but not other ways of being psionic. Those include the Phrenic template and some very unlikely things like having taken levels in a psionic class.
- I think a likely possibility for the "Shout" is the supernatural Frightful Presence triggered when the MitD acted threatening for a moment and was about to attack. Haley and Belkar weren't visibly harmed but it looks like they both got the Shaken status effect.

[Andric]

spoiler tags within spoiler tags is a bit over the top and annoying. especially when
soem are even bloody empty

[doliest]

I'd like to propose a little theory that is more than a bit speculative;
The MITD is a genius by it's kind's standards.
Think about it; the big game hunters weren't just suprised by the common, the line was 'It speaks, in common no less' either implying a mute creature or a creature with an INT below 3. This means that MITD could be an adult, but it has low wisdom and/or INT because it's race is animalistic. Unfortunately the list of Epic level monsters with an INT below 3 is VERY short, so my idea can be discarded rather quickly.

[Skorj]

There's a direct connection between the MitD feeling sleepy, and the MitD using his powers. Each time in the web comic we've seen him sleeping, or announcing that he was tired, was immediately after using some powerful ability.

The MitD isn't "a creature that sleeps a lot", but "a creature that sleeps after using it's Su/Ex abilities".

[KillerQueen]

I'd like to propose a little theory that is more than a bit speculative;
The MITD is a genius by it's kind's standards.
Think about it; the big game hunters weren't just suprised by the common, the line was 'It speaks, in common no less' either implying a mute creature or a creature with an INT below 3. This means that MITD could be an adult, but it has low wisdom and/or INT because it's race is animalistic. Unfortunately the list of Epic level monsters with an INT below 3 is VERY short, so my idea can be discarded rather quickly.

Must it be epic? :smallconfused:

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm sorry to repeat this joke again, but.. :smallfrown:

Resistent to scissors slashing? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)

Vulnerable to paper? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

He's a rock.. :smallwink:


I'd like to propose a little theory that is more than a bit speculative;
The MITD is a genius by it's kind's standards.
Think about it; the big game hunters weren't just suprised by the common, the line was 'It speaks, in common no less' either implying a mute creature or a creature with an INT below 3. This means that MITD could be an adult, but it has low wisdom and/or INT because it's race is animalistic. Unfortunately the list of Epic level monsters with an INT below 3 is VERY short, so my idea can be discarded rather quickly.

So your saying that an intellegent race that doesn't start with common is an idiot? Isn't that a little rascist? :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Must it be epic? :smallconfused:
Considering what we've seen it do, and what Xykon and Redcloak have expected it to be able to do, I'd say the answer is over ninety percent "yes."

[KillerQueen]

I'm sorry to repeat this joke again, but.. :smallfrown:

Resistent to scissors slashing? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)

Vulnerable to paper? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

He's a rock.. :smallwink:



So your saying that an intellegent race that doesn't start with common is an idiot? Isn't that a little rascist? :smalltongue:

One that doesn't speak at all must be.

[Kish]

Really, there's no connection between muteness and intelligence. Please don't get the thread locked.

[doliest]

So your saying that an intellegent race that doesn't start with common is an idiot? Isn't that a little rascist? :smalltongue:

....What? No I said that the sentence implied that they're surprised it can speak a language at all....so there.:smalltongue:

[KillerQueen]

Considering what we've seen it do, and what Xykon and Redcloak have expected it to be able to do, I'd say the answer is over ninety percent "yes."

Xykon's kind of notorious for having overly high expectations for monsters under his employ. Don't discount possibilities based on his judge of character.

Edit: and what do you mean, get the thread locked?

[Lord of Syntax]

Really, there's no connection between muteness and intelligence. Please don't get the thread locked.

Not in the real world, no. But in D&D you must have INT >= 3 to speak.

[HotAndCold]

Xykon's kind of notorious for having overly high expectations for monsters under his employ. Don't discount possibilities based on his judge of character.

Edit: and what do you mean, get the thread locked?

I'd expect Redcloak to have more realistic expectations than Xykon, especially considering that Redcloak knows what the MitD is (or at least thinks that he does), and Redcloak expects great power of the MitD. Heck, I think half the reason Xykon expects anything at all of the MitD is because Redcloak does.

[Shale]

spoiler tags within spoiler tags is a bit over the top and annoying. especially when soem are even bloody empty

Yes. There's nothing wrong with a long first post in a topic like this.

[Inhuman Bot]

....What? No I said that the sentence implied that they're surprised it can speak a language at all....so there.:smalltongue:

My mistake. I ignored the "It's speaking" part, and focused on the "In Common" part. :smalltongue:

[DarkElfGangsta]

guys, guys, guys. guys.
this is so obvious.
obviiuosly the MiTD is a goddam pimpin' snorlax Lv. 100
they can speak if they work hard see Meowth
eat everything, always hungry
extremely powerful
quiite large
ugly, as they are fat, beautiful, as they are majestically unstopabble
the fat protects them from damage
sleep a lot
get wish
get stomp
lazy
somewhat dumb

I am serious, it all fits!!! I solved what is the MITD:smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

Snorlax is too large to be MitD. Far too large.

[DarkElfGangsta]

Snorlax is too large to be MitD. Far too large.

but as was stated, Rich messed around with sizes in the comic. also, Snorlaxes range in size. they get fat cuz they wonder and eat exerything edible right? maybe this one isnt as large cuz it is in a cage all day, with regular meals.

[Bagelz]

I don't have the sourcebook on me to compare abilities, but anychance its a plutonium dragon from the munchkin monster manual?
the are most powerful at birth and get less powerful with age (half life joke).

or some other joke creature.
possibly a pun-pun knock off (a kobald with so many feats and advantage/disadvantages that it has a str of 30, a char of 2 and has "large size" just to get extra reach/str/dmg die)?

[Nimrod's Son]

spoiler tags within spoiler tags is a bit over the top and annoying. especially when soem are even bloody empty
One purpose of that first post is so that people with half-baked theories can be quickly and efficiently shown that they are wrong. It's a lot simpler to find information in clearly-labelled boxes than it is to wade through a post that would otherwise be the length of the average freight train. There's a hell of a lot of information to be contained in that post, and so far Grey Wolf has done an excellent job of compiling it all. Bitching about how some of it is incomplete when the old thread isn't even closed yet is JUST NOT ON, 'K? :smallsigh:

By the way, Grey Wolf, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) the link you wanted for the "size" section.

[Shale]

That part's a good idea - it'd just be better if they weren't nested. Having to click through two boxes before you can even see what the specific frequently-asked-questions are makes them a pain to read, which means that fewer people probably will.

[Selene]

Hey, I like the spoiler tags. :smallconfused: Please keep them, Grey.

New people: this is the continuation of an old thread, and Grey has been kind enough to gather all the information from the last thread into this one. Please shush with the complaining. Thanks.


- Spell-like abilities do not use verbal (or other) components. If "Escape" was spell-like (or psi-like) the MitD wouldn't needed to have to say its actual name.

Except we don't know that he was reciting the name of a spell/ability at all. For all we know, he was just finishing his sentence while he thought them away. OotS characters needlessly call out what they're doing all the time. (Great Cleave! Sneak Attack!)


but as was stated, Rich messed around with sizes in the comic. also, Snorlaxes range in size. they get fat cuz they wonder and eat exerything edible right? maybe this one isnt as large cuz it is in a cage all day, with regular meals.

I believe when Grey Wolf finishes the "discarded ideas" section, you will find Snorlax has been suggested and rejected several times over. Two words. Trademark infringement. Nintendo does not have a sense of humor, and they take their trademarks very seriously. And yes, I do think there is a fair chance Rich would get a C&D for using a named, trademarked Pokemon character as a major character in a for profit story. Getting a C&D and having to go back and change everything, possibly even printed material, is not worth whatever marginal amusement there is to be had from using a Pokemon.

edit:

That part's a good idea - it'd just be better if they weren't nested. Having to click through two boxes before you can even see what the specific frequently-asked-questions are makes them a pain to read, which means that fewer people probably will.

So you think they will be more likely to read a wall of text that's three screens high? My ADD says no.

[Shale]

So you think they will be more likely to read a wall of text that's three screens high? My ADD says no.

My ADD, which I will pit against yours in a hey-look-a-butterfly-off any day, says clear outlines telling people which bit of information is where are awesome, because they let me scan the page and immediately find the topic I want to ask about. Nesting the outline in spoiler boxes means I have to guess which section the particular topic I want is in, which strains the attention span.

In short, I find this:

Section 1: General Information

Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words/Start of Darkness CanonTo be filled in later
Section 1b: Useful Links
To be filled in later
Section 1c: Other Info
To be filled in later

A lot more user-friendly than this:

Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words
Start of Darkness CanonTo be filled in later

Section 1b: Useful Links
To be filled in later
Section 1c: Other Info
To be filled in later


Because I can instantly see what information is available where, while the spoiler boxes still reduce wall-of-text clutter dramatically.

[factotum]

- Spell-like abilities do not use verbal (or other) components. If "Escape" was spell-like (or psi-like) the MitD wouldn't needed to have to say its actual name.


That's assuming it's a spell-like ability called Escape, which is not necessarily the case. It could be a spell-like ability which grants a Wish, and "Escape" was the Wish the MitD asked for. (I'm sure there are plenty of other options as well, but that was the first one that came to mind).

Also, haven't we seen Xykon call his Paralyzing Touch before?

[Moogleking]

Might I suggest the "Move Earth" spell as an alternative to Earthquake?

[Nerdanel]

That's assuming it's a spell-like ability called Escape, which is not necessarily the case. It could be a spell-like ability which grants a Wish, and "Escape" was the Wish the MitD asked for. (I'm sure there are plenty of other options as well, but that was the first one that came to mind).

Also, haven't we seen Xykon call his Paralyzing Touch before?

Ok, I should probably have phrased that better.

My point was that the thing commonly called "Escape" in this thread doesn't have to be called that in the game rules if it's a spell-like ability since spell-like abilities don't have a verbal component.

So we agree.

[megabyter5]

Has Rich ever said specifically that it is not something that exists in the real world? If not, I have a very interesting solution.

The MitD is some sort of real-world celebrity, with ridiculously overstated qualities either of that celebrity or multiple characters he has played in the past! It completely eliminates the chore of finding something in a sourcebook that fits all the vague hints we've seen! The only question is, which one?

[talkamancer]

Could it be a "Q" ?

Looks like how the hell it wants

abilities, what ever it says.

(edit for typo)

[RdMarquis]

I like the idea of the Monster being a Tonberry, from the Final Fantasy series.

I think it was dismissed in the last thread, but it has yellow eyes, is immensely strong (its signature move is instantly KO-ing one of your characters with a kitchen knife), and could have the ability to teleport people and cause earthquakes. The game designers like to play around with ability lists of Final Fantasy monsters. They don't normally talk, or live in a jungle. They live where the game designers decide to stick the really tough monsters. :smallsmile: They have very high HP (in the hundreds of thousands), even for Final Fantasy monsters. No D&D character would be able to do enough damage to put a dent in those numbers, even with critical hits.

I'm thinking that the MitD would have lost its kitchen knife. That would be weird for a Tonberry, but the knife isn't an actual part of its body.

Most importatly, there is a variation of the Tonberry called the Tonberry king, which is the same monster wearing a simplistic yellow crown, which I can't help but notice is what a certain undead villain always wears. Wouldn't it be awsome if the MitD turned out to be the leader of his people? In the grand finale of the Oots, which I hope is a while off, the Order would be in serious trouble when the MitD arrives with the cavalry: an army of its species. Then, after the world is saved, the Monster picks up the crown, looks into a nearby puddle and the last lines of the series are as follows.

MitD: Badass.

(Puts on crown, now looking like a Tonberry King.)

MitD: Really badass.

[Moogleking]

I like the idea of the Monster being a Tonberry, from the Final Fantasy series.

I think it was dismissed in the last thread, but it has yellow eyes, is immensely strong (its signature move is instantly KO-ing one of your characters with a kitchen knife), and could have the ability to teleport people and cause earthquakes. The game designers like to play around with ability lists of Final Fantasy monsters. They don't normally talk, or live in a jungle. They live where the game designers decide to stick the really tough monsters. :smallsmile: They have very high HP (in the hundreds of thousands), even for Final Fantasy monsters. No D&D character would be able to do enough damage to put a dent in those numbers, even with critical hits.

I'm thinking that the MitD would have lost its kitchen knife. That would be weird for a Tonberry, but the knife isn't an actual part of its body.

Most importatly, there is a variation of the Tonberry called the Tonberry king, which is the same monster wearing a simplistic yellow crown, which I can't help but notice is what a certain undead villain always wears. Wouldn't it be awsome if the MitD turned out to be the leader of his people? In the grand finale of the Oots, which I hope is a while off, the Order would be in serious trouble when the MitD arrives with the cavalry: an army of its species. Then, after the world is saved, the Monster picks up the crown, looks into a nearby puddle and the last lines of the series are as follows.

MitD: Badass.

(Puts on crown, now looking like a Tonberry King.)

MitD: Really badass.

Okay this is my new favorite theory :smalltongue:

Tonberries have appearred in Ruins, Waterfalls and Caves to my knowledge, but never Rainforests.

I don't recall any variation of Tonberry casting Quake or Escape mind :smallmad:

I would love this to be true, but I doubt it somehow :smallfrown:

[Somewhere]

Wait, since when can Tonberries use magic at all?

[PerennialLurker]

I want to raise a question that as far I as I can tell was never raised in the previous thread.

It is a common assumption that the monster in the darkness must be either human sized or large because of the box he inhabits. However, I always thought that it was likely that he was much larger, and that the box and umbrella were a variant on a Clown Car Base (Here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClownCarBase). We know that the umbrella is magical anyway, as it creates a shroud of perfect darkness. I've never played D&D, so I don't know if it's possible to create something like this, but considering that bags of holding are fairly common it seems plausible.

What's attractive about this is that not only would it expand the list of possible monsters, it would provide a really dramatic reveal. A large monster emerging from a tiny space is visually attractive and a common trope, so it fits with the overall tone of OOTS.

Just a thought.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Taking a break to answer a few posts


Might I suggest the "Move Earth" spell as an alternative to Earthquake?

You can, I suppose. But we already assume that the whole scene can be explained with a high enough strength, so a new spell name doesn't bring anything to the table unless attached to an interesting creature.


Has Rich ever said specifically that it is not something that exists in the real world?

Rich has only discarded his own creations.


The MitD is some sort of real-world celebrity, with ridiculously overstated qualities either of that celebrity or multiple characters he has played in the past! It completely eliminates the chore of finding something in a sourcebook that fits all the vague hints we've seen! The only question is, which one?

Feel free to suggest celebrities with the strength to crack open the earth and punch people through walls and for several kilometers and teleport. I can see Schwarzenegger's joke characters kicking someone through a stone wall, I suppose, but everything else...?


spoiler tags within spoiler tags is a bit over the top and annoying. especially when
soem are even bloody empty

Hey, wise guy, how about when we run out of pages in this thread, you get to write everything down? I'll even delete my first post, so you can see if you can rewrite everything in a couple of hours.

[Insert disparing comment about his lack of intellect here]


There's a direct connection between the MitD feeling sleepy, and the MitD using his powers. Each time in the web comic we've seen him sleeping, or announcing that he was tired, was immediately after using some powerful ability.

The MitD isn't "a creature that sleeps a lot", but "a creature that sleeps after using it's Su/Ex abilities".

Actually, when he is captured in SoD, he is waking up in the morning. He might have used a powerful ability the day before, but we don't actually see such thing.

There is a connection between sleeping and using his powers, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he only ever sleeps after using them. After all, by the same token, we never see RC sleep, so we might as well assume he doesn't even sleep. What it does tell us is that MitD does need to sleep (to recover the use of his speels/powers/etc), which discards, amongst others, undead.


Snorlax is too large to be MitD. Far too large.

Snorlax is 6' 11''. It in not too large to be MitD.


Could it be a "Q" ?

Looks like how the hell it wants

abilities, what ever it says.

I really have no idea what you're suggesting here. What's a "Q"? The guy from James Bond? The letter?

Edit:
I always thought that it was likely that he was much larger, and that the box and umbrella were a variant on a Clown Car Base (Here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClownCarBase). We know that the umbrella is magical anyway, as it creates a shroud of perfect darkness.

Not impossible, just unlikely. MitD has been in several of such boxes, including one in a circus and the one used to capture him in the rainforest. Those two would have had no reason to be magical. On the other hand, the Dr. Who joke of the inside being larger than the outside is an established joke, and I can see Rich pulling it off when revealing MitD.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

A Q is an omnipotent entity from Star Trek: The Next Generation, with a single appearance on Deep Space Nine.

None appeared on Star Trek: Voyager, because there was no Star Trek: Voyager. And don't even whisper the name of any hypothetical series that might have come out after Voyager didn't come out.

It's not completely impossible, but it strikes me as fairly unlikely. Those Q who appeared on the shows generally assumed a human form, and were physically no stronger or more resilient than humans in that form; the "Escape" thing is the one thing that specifically points to a Q. This might be the answer to Nerdanel's prayers (a Q who assumed the form of a tarrasque, shrunk by the Q when it assumed that form for convenience, still massively strong and damage-resistant from its tarrasque form, and as intelligent as a Q), but I think it's something of a stretch to call it "guessable." Also, "The creature in the darkness was always omnipotent" seems likely to lend itself really well to ripoff endings.

Thinking about this has made me also adopt a position of opposition to Snorlax and every other Pokemon. Something from an unrelated-to-D&D television show is not going to be a major factor in the plot of OotS. Call it a hunch. Call it a twenty-gold bet, for anyone who thinks it is.

[Nerdanel]

Move Earth doesn't match what happens in the comic, but Earthquake matches it exactly. I think it's highly likely that what happened was indeed an Earthquake effect as per the spell. The only other credible option is very high strength coupled with artistic license.


This spell does not violently break the surface of the ground.

Earthquake is the spell that create temporary chasms that people can fall into.

[E-Arkham]

Missing the Li Lung. C&P from my suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6757184#post6757184) in the old thread:



Li Lung (Earth Dragon). From 3rd edition Oriental Adventures (and earlier, 1st edition Fiendish Folio).

Sample of description: "A li lung has the body and tail of a lion with a humanlike face. Colorful quills like the tail feathers of a peacock adorn its wings (li lungs are the only lung dragons with wings), and its eyes look like molten gold with small black pupils in their midst."

CR and size ranges from 8 (Juvenile) and medium to 24 (Great Wyrm) and gargantuan. Young Adult is large. Ancient is the first size at Huge (debatably still able to fit inside cage) as well as CR21, and has a strength in the mid 30s.

Innate once a day Earthquake ability as well as a roar. All lung dragons have a plane shift ability.

PROS:

1) Could easily be mistaken for another creature such as a sphinx or manticore
2) Description of eyes is spot on
3) Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and (debatably) correctly sized
4) Somewhat obscure yet could still be presented with an iconic appearance
5) Damage reduction
6) Has both earthquake AND a powerful roar

CONS:

1) Aside from plane shift, lacks any wish, miracle or teleport ability that could reasonably explain O'Chul and V's escape
2) Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
3) Even mid 30s strength is probably not able to knock Miko and her horse several miles


Probably goes in one-off or forerunner, depending.

Kep

[Watcher]

...but Earthquake matches it exactly.

Except Earthquake only lasts for one round and then closes everything up when that round is over, but the cracks MitD opens (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) stay for longer.

Also, move actions can't be made during the round of an earthquake.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

My Guess? Minya, son of Godzilla. Everthing fits.

Minya could talk, but none of the other rubber-suited monsters could.

He wasn't on Monster Island, so he wasn't where the Big Game Hunters would normally expect to find him.

Godzilla's stomp is known for causing earthquakes.

Godzilla is the King of the Monsters, Minya is a much smaller, child version of dear old dad.

The MitD even mentions having a father, who was much bigger than he is. The Tarrasque is a unique monster, with no mates or children.

minya was the only Toho monster written specifically for the children's market.

People outside of gaming will recognise Japanese Rubber Suit monsters, even if they don't know them by name. People outside of gaming won't necessarily recognise D&D specific monsters, templated creatures, Pun-Pun, or Pokemon that aren't owned/trained by Ash and his friends. Everyone knows Pikachu, but many of the rest? "Uh? Ubuntu? I was never really into Pokemon..."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

People outside of gaming will recognise Japanese Rubber Suit monsters, even if they don't know them by name. People outside of gaming won't necessarily recognise D&D specific monsters, templated creatures, Pun-Pun, or Pokemon that aren't owned/trained by Ash and his friends. Everyone knows Pikachu, but many of the rest? "Uh? Ubuntu? I was never really into Pokemon..."

Utterly and completely irrelevant. MitD isn't necessarily famous, recognisable or otherwise iconic, and for my life I can't say why everyone seems to think he is. As support for MitD, it ranks around the same place as "and it is green!".

Anyway, back to "godzilla jr": is he an intellectual property? It seems like he is, if he was marketed to children. Also, how would it account for O'Chul's escape?

E-Arkham: many of the proposed ideas are missing, because I'm still in page 9. Give me a few days, for Zeus' sake. I do want to have a life, if at all possible. 5 hours a day dedicated to this feels about right.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

My Guess? Minya, son of Godzilla. Everthing fits.
Everything? I don't see anything in the rest of your post about Minya being able to teleport anyone; can he?

[Nerdanel]

Good catch about the move actions. So, then I say everything fits except the ability of Haley and Belkar take actions during the round (or several rounds).

It wouldn't be the first spell misrepresented in the comic. (See, for example, Animate Dead.)

However, I still think there's something supernatural going on. If the MitD caused the earthquake with sheer strength, I'd have expected a bigger sound effect than a feeble "stomp". Also, the main direction of the cracks is extremely convenient. Could the MitD really aim that well without magic?

[silversaraph]

It's amazing how much effort is put into this...

Not sure if this as been stated, but about his defenses, in a bonus comic of war and xps, Redcloak mentions that it would do nothing to stab him "In face" (no idea whether the absence of a "the" was a typo or on purpose."

On page 415a, "I don't know whether the fact you wouldn't be injured is a point against me stabbing you in face with my quill, or in favor of it."

On the same page, he also mentions he got jelly on him once (For diet)

Um, and he can draw, badly, according to the same page.

Edit: OOH! and he can hold crayons, which says something about digits capable of grasping small things.

[mofabulous]

I hope Rich changes his mind and never reveals the MiTD. It's a mystery that creates huge debates that have endless speculation. Does anyone really want this comic to end? I know I don't. Obviously it will someday, but revealing the MiTD would be a huge step to lose the comics mystique.

It's just like Varsuvius. Obviously Rich is making fun of how androgynous elves are. But no one seems to realize that. They seem to think that V must either be a female or a male and they debate it endlessly.

Could you imagine how much interest those same people would lose if Rich just came out and said ok V is a guy. No more debates on it. He's a guy. Those people would be crushed. All that time debating over it wasted.

So Rich, please don't reveal the monster. People don't really care to learn what it is. We just want to speculate on it. You'd only ruin it if you reveal it.



That said I used to think the monster was a rock since it fit all the clues. But the teleporting Ochul and V seems to mean its something else. I've searched old source books for something in D&D world and nothing seems to fit so it must be something from popular fiction thats non D&D related.

[Kish]

I hope Rich changes his mind and never reveals the MiTD. It's a mystery that creates huge debates that have endless speculation. Does anyone really want this comic to end?
Yes. Yes, I do. Any fictional medium suffers from going on too long; the best stories are ones with planned endings.

[Nimrod's Son]

So Rich, please don't reveal the monster. People don't really care to learn what it is. We just want to speculate on it. You'd only ruin it if you reveal it.
You've enjoyed his story so far, right? What makes you so sure sure that something he's had planned since pretty much the beginning, which he's decided to keep secret till the climax, is going to be such a disappointment?

Not to mention that the people who "just want to speculate" are in a minority. Most people just want the story, and Rich would be gypping them to change his mind now for the sake of keeping a few fans happy.

[rewinn]

Has Rich ever said specifically that it is not something that exists in the real world? If not, I have a very interesting solution.

The MitD is some sort of real-world celebrity, with ridiculously overstated qualities either of that celebrity or multiple characters he has played in the past! It completely eliminates the chore of finding something in a sourcebook that fits all the vague hints we've seen! The only question is, which one?Chuck Norris as a baby?

[Kish]

No, see, the creature in the darkness is something powerful. Not a baby version of a minor celebrity who is the focus of jokes which were funny for ten seconds before the earth cooled enough to be habitable.

[Jolee]

Ok, two comments:

1) In the first post under "eyes" suggests that he doesn't have darkvision since he claims in the linked strip that he "can't see anything in all this darkness". We know that the magical darkness he's in doesn't even allow darkvision from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html), so we can't rule out darkvision yet.

2) On the topic of sleeping, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) an example of MitD falling asleep without using his powers.

[DarkElfGangsta]

do we know for sure the MitD is a monster from DnD?

[Shale]

No. We know that it's something Rich Burlew didn't make up himself, but we don't know where he got it.

[Selene]

Could it be a "Q" ?

Looks like how the hell it wants

abilities, what ever it says.

(edit for typo)

I'd be scared of a Q. :smalleek: But I doubt one could pretend the MitD level of stupid if the rest of them are half as arrogant as the John DeLancie version.


A Q is an omnipotent entity from Star Trek: The Next Generation, with a single appearance on Deep Space Nine.

None appeared on Star Trek: Voyager, because there was no Star Trek: Voyager. And don't even whisper the name of any hypothetical series that might have come out after Voyager didn't come out.

See, now there you go expecting too much. They can't all be TNG. Try comparing Voyager and its followers to something like Big Brother. Now it's good.


The Tarrasque is a unique monster, with no mates or children.

Please keep saying this.


Anyway, back to "godzilla jr": is he an intellectual property? It seems like he is, if he was marketed to children.

Yeah, and ISTR reading that Godzilla's owners got some website shut down because it had something- "zilla" in the name and used a dinosaur logo. So unless I'm remembering wrong (very possible), that means they're overly defensive.


2) On the topic of sleeping, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) an example of MitD falling asleep without using his powers.

But he doesn't fall asleep in that one. He just says goodnight to O-Chul. I said goodnight to my kids hours ago, and I'm not asleep.

[Herald Alberich]

Yeah, and ISTR reading that Godzilla's owners got some website shut down because it had something- "zilla" in the name and used a dinosaur logo. So unless I'm remembering wrong (very possible), that means they're overly defensive.

If that were the case, Mozilla, makers of Firefox and other open-source goodness, and owners of this mascot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_%28mascot%29), would be in trouble, but they seem to be doing fine. I probably would have heard about a lawsuit from Toho against them.

[Nimrod's Son]

If that were the case, Mozilla, makers of Firefox and other open-source goodness, and owners of this mascot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_%28mascot%29), would be in trouble, but they seem to be doing fine. I probably would have heard about a lawsuit from Toho against them.
Mozilla is a non-profit organisation, though, which makes a big difference.

[HotAndCold]

I think the company in question was actually using Godzilla, like, straight up. It was a Seattle-based company, I know that for sure. I talk a bunch with a group of people from Seattle and they talked about it a good bit when it happened.

Ah! That's right, the company's name was Pink Godzilla, but they changed it to Pink Gorilla. They were talking about how it was disorienting to see a monkey (yes, we all know that gorillas are not monkeys) instead of a lizard.

So, er, yes, likely not Godzilla or his spawn.

[Ancalagon]

You've enjoyed his story so far, right? What makes you so sure sure that something he's had planned since pretty much the beginning, which he's decided to keep secret till the climax, is going to be such a disappointment?

After the years of guessing and having fun it with, starting to like it, after everyone has a (more or less) slightly different version of it in his or her mind, the revelation is VERY likely to be a disappointment for many people.

At least those who are not familiar with the fictional work where the monster comes from are likely to be disappointed. For example, it might be the most awesome and fitting revelation of some Final Fantasy Monster (or D&D or Star Wars or Star Trek or... whatever), those who are not familiar with that setting or do not like it for some reason WILL be disappointed.
Unless the revelation comes from some totally accepted pop-culture-thing (which at the moment leaves only Godzilla), the revelation will create disappointment in some way.

It's good Tolkien never revealed Tom Bombadil's true nature.

I'm not saying that the revelation of the MitD will result in a disappointment (for a few or many) or that I do not want it revealed (I want to know, even if I might be disappointed!)
I just say it's, based on the data I have now to estimate this, probable a high percentage will not find the finaly revelation awesome.

[TriForce]

on a different note, i keep reading about the monster knocking miko away for miles of the tower, something assumed becouse you cannot see the tower anymore on the page where she lands, but for all we know she just landed next to the tower, and the "camera angle" was pointed away from the tower, that makes much more sence then miko flying for miles and still surviving the landing, and the monster catching up to them so soon

[Ancalagon]

on a different note, i keep reading about the monster knocking miko away for miles of the tower, something assumed becouse you cannot see the tower anymore on the page where she lands, but for all we know she just landed next to the tower, and the "camera angle" was pointed away from the tower, that makes much more sence then miko flying for miles and still surviving the landing, and the monster catching up to them so soon

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

9th panel. It's of course "artistic freedom", but it shows Miko did not just land at the foot of the tower. She flew.

[Nerdanel]

I've also been thinking about that.

If the tower is on a high cliff, it's possible that Miko didn't travel more than a square or two horizontally while still falling from a great height.

I know there's a feat (possibly not SRD) that allows a character to push back a little way someone they hit with their attack, but I can't find it. Depending on the exact wording of that feat, it's possible that it doesn't mention what happens when the target stands next to a wall...

[hamishspence]

9th panel. It's of course "artistic freedom", but it shows Miko did not just land at the foot of the tower. She flew.

One of the traps in Dungeonscape is very like this- hurls the target out of the dungeon for 2000 odd feet- they land and take 20d6 damage.

Maybe the monster's attack is a little nod to this?

[E-Arkham]

E-Arkham: many of the proposed ideas are missing, because I'm still in page 9. Give me a few days, for Zeus' sake. I do want to have a life, if at all possible. 5 hours a day dedicated to this feels about right.

Ah, I'd thought you'd kept a running tally all along. Sorry.

Kep

[Shale]

Panel 9 seems pretty definitive. If she was falling straight down it wouldn't look like that (unless it was a zoomed-out view, in which case we'd be able to see the tower nearby). Also bear in mind that in order to get outside the tower, Miko was knocked through a solid rock wall. As was her full-grown warhorse. Either way, it was no love tap.

Although....how did the monster catch up so quickly?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Panel 9 seems pretty definitive. If she was falling straight down it wouldn't look like that (unless it was a zoomed-out view, in which case we'd be able to see the tower nearby). Also bear in mind that in order to get outside the tower, Miko was knocked through a solid rock wall. As was her full-grown warhorse. Either way, it was no love tap.

Although....how did the monster catch up so quickly?

Drinking that many potions would take a while, and we don't know how long Miko was there getting ahold of herself. Also, if she had fallen "one or two squares" from the tower, I believe Rich would have drawn in the tower. The fact it is nowhere to be seen, combined with the "Miko flying" panel is what makes me think that she's been flung far.

Not that it matters that much. As far as I know, there is no way to set a number to MitD's strength, since there are no rules in D&D for punching people through stone walls from which we can definitely say "he must have at least 28 STR" or something like it.

Edit:
1) In the first post under "eyes" suggests that he doesn't have darkvision since he claims in the linked strip that he "can't see anything in all this darkness". We know that the magical darkness he's in doesn't even allow darkvision from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html), so we can't rule out darkvision yet.

Whatever makes you think that is a magical darkness? IIRC, Magical darkness comes later, under the umbrella. That said, it is clearly a comment about not seeing the gates, which from that moment onwards becomes MitD's running gag, so it can be understood to be a Rule of Funny overcoming MitD's darkvision, and so I noted.


2) On the topic of sleeping, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) an example of MitD falling asleep without using his powers.

Unless the people that think he caused the rain inadvertently are right. Or, as Selene pointed out, MitD didn't fall asleep at all.
-------------

Can someone find me the link where MitD wants to help RC with zombie raising?
Nevermind, found it.

-------------

About psionics: in SoD, when RC is springing MitD out of the circus, MitD sees a bucket of stew, and pushes the box downwards to grab it (pg. 90). The whole scene is fairly ridiculous, of course (the bucket ends up held to the box by a rivet), but if he had psionic powers - particularly to hold things without touching them - would he need to do all this? What I'm saying is: how far does psionic abilities to hold things stretch?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Herald Alberich]

Whatever makes you think that is a magical darkness? IIRC, Magical darkness comes later, under the umbrella. That said, it is clearly a comment about not seeing the gates, which from that moment onwards becomes MitD's running gag, so it can be understood to be a Rule of Funny overcoming MitD's darkvision, and so I noted.

Because Redcloak says so in the strip Jolee linked to. His darkvision isn't helping him find the MitD because it's magical darkness.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because Redcloak says so in the strip Jolee linked to. His darkvision isn't helping him find the MitD because it's magical darkness.

Damn, I missed that. Sorry. In the early thread, that strip is constantly referred to in the darkvision aspect but is dismissed because the scrying ball could have it "built in" (they are watching the dwarves, which are in full darkness). So I overlooked the small print. I'll remove the darkvision comment, then.

Grey Wolf

[Forbiddenwar]

I just want to say, Thank-you, Grey Wolf. The new thread looks great.

[Temotei]

Maybe it's Roland St. Jude?

Hehe. Oh wait...never mind. He never sleeps.

[Selene]

If that were the case, Mozilla, makers of Firefox and other open-source goodness, and owners of this mascot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_%28mascot%29), would be in trouble, but they seem to be doing fine. I probably would have heard about a lawsuit from Toho against them.

I didn't say they sued. They sent a C&D, and although the site wasn't shut down after all, it did have to stop using the dinosaur logo. Here is the case (scroll down to Davezilla): http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/11/godzilla-terror/


Mozilla is a non-profit organisation, though, which makes a big difference.

And that is mentioned in the Wired article as the reason they haven't gone after them.

Google "godzilla lawsuit." You'll come up with many cases (one of which will be the pink godzilla/gorilla one that HotandCold mentioned).


It's good Tolkien never revealed Tom Bombadil's true nature.

Bleh. It's better that Peter Jackson ditched him when he made the movies.

[Ancalagon]

Bleh. It's better that Peter Jackson ditched him when he made the movies.

Uhm... those are totally seperate matters.

Toliken not revealing what Bombadil is and Jackson having no time(!) to add him into the movies really has nothing, nothing to do with each other. As I understood it, Jackson did want that section in, but it just did not it - and would only have confused the viewer (for example, that Tom can wear The Ring without any apparent consequence etc).

[Nimrod's Son]

Uhm... those are totally seperate matters.
Yeah, but so's mentioning Bombadil at all. Tolkein never intended to reveal the nature of Tom Bombadil at the climax of his story. He was always supposed to be an enigmatic bit-player. Rich, on the other hand, has had the monster's big reveal planned for some time, and since he's decided to save it till near the end I tend to think he might have something a bit special in store. I'd prefer to see him go through with it than chicken out to satisfy a few people who think they understand the story better than its author.

[CrosisBlackwing]

In reference to GW's post about the MitD's Str

since there are no rules in D&D for punching people through stone walls
There is.
I don't seem to have the supplement with me at the moment, but it says something along the lines of "If you want to bull rush some on through a railing (or wall in this case) you need to make a str check with a DC= the break DC of the object to break through."

Beasically, if you were next to a wood railing, i could punch you through it with a DC 20 str check. (from the DMG)(this is in addition to me succeding on my bull rush)
If you apply this to a wall that is certainly Superior or Reinforced masonry, we come up with a break DC of 35 or 45. If we assume the MitD rolls high, (a 20) and that the wall is of only superior masonry, he must have a Str score of at least (35-20) +15, this mean his Str is at least 40... AT a MINIMUM.

In my opinion although, this is a case of Plot/Cool trumping rules, because he most likely rolled lower than that, and that the walls (Of a Major Nations Guardpost) are most likely Reinforced Masonry, means his Str score is upwards of 60-70...
Secondly, a Huge monster with Str 60 has a Str score of 76 at Colossal size, (60+8(Garg)+8(Colo)) which basically rules out EVERY monster in the game. (but we already knew that :smallbiggrin: didn't we?)

[Selene]

Uhm... those are totally seperate matters.

Toliken not revealing what Bombadil is and Jackson having no time(!) to add him into the movies really has nothing, nothing to do with each other. As I understood it, Jackson did want that section in, but it just did not it - and would only have confused the viewer (for example, that Tom can wear The Ring without any apparent consequence etc).

No, really? Um, duh?

I'm saying Bombadil, Goldberry, and their whole section of the story, were an ill conceived vanity ploy by the Professor, because his publishers wouldn't buy his other work which Bombadil was written for, originally. That whole section was completely unrelated to the rest of the story, and breaks canon with the Silmarillion (and every unfinished/lost tales version of it, as well). I'm further saying that the books would have been better off had Bombadil been left on the editing room floor, just as the movies were.

And forgive me, but your statement seems to contradict itself with the bit about he wanted it in but it was confusing. Then he didn't want it in, did he? Plus, time? Really? He spends two years filming 12 hours worth of movie and you think he was worried about time?


Yeah, but so's mentioning Bombadil at all. Tolkein never intended to reveal the nature of Tom Bombadil at the climax of his story. He was always supposed to be an enigmatic bit-player. Rich, on the other hand, has had the monster's big reveal planned for some time, and since he's decided to save it till near the end I tend to think he might have something a bit special in store. I'd prefer to see him go through with it than chicken out to satisfy a few people who think they understand the story better than its author.

Exactly! Irrelevant bit player the story would have been better off without =/= major character who plays an important role in the plot line.

[Ancalagon]

No, really? Um, duh?

Uh? Why the aggression? Bad breakfast? Or is just too much someone disagrees to something you said? Anyway... no offense taken.

I like Bombadil very much, even when the motive why he's there is simply "Tolkien liked the character". He adds a sense of mystery that is supposed to be a dominant aspect of Tolkiens world but that gets lost somehow as we can read so much about the backstory in the Silmarillion (note that Tolkien possibly never considered the Silmarillion to be something to get published).


He spends two years filming 12 hours worth of movie and you think he was worried about time?

No contradiction. It's not about filming time, but runtime in the movie. You'd need what, 30? 45? minutes for that side-story? All indicators I have from interviews is that he wanted that character, but really could not fit it into the world.

To draw the line back the the Monster in the Dark:
This is not about the authors intention about a revelation of the true nature of a certain mystery. This is, at least from my point of view, about the question if a revelation would be "good" or if it would be "better" (whatever definition of "better" is used) not-to-reveal the thing at all.

But even that aspect/question is a bit moot from my point of view, as I already stated that I'd like to see the revelation, even if it MIGHT(!!!) turn out, in retrospect, it would have been better not to reveal it.

[Selene]

Uh? Why the aggression? Bad breakfast? Or is just too much someone disagrees to something you said? Anyway... no offense taken.

Aggression? Where did that come from? Would you have preferred "thank you, Captain Obvious"? Because I can't for the life of me fathom why you responded to my post about not liking the character with...


Toliken not revealing what Bombadil is and Jackson having no time(!) to add him into the movies really has nothing, nothing to do with each other.

...which had nothing to do with what I said, and seems blatantly obvious to me. :smallconfused:


I like Bombadil very much, even when the motive why he's there is simply "Tolkien liked the character". He adds a sense of mystery that is supposed to be a dominant aspect of Tolkiens world but that gets lost somehow as we can read so much about the backstory in the Silmarillion (note that Tolkien possibly never considered the Silmarillion to be something to get published).

Not in its current form, certainly. We'll have to agree to disagree on Tom. I didn't like him when I was 12 and first read LotR. And, well, now I'm 40 and I've found no reason to change my mind. IMHO, even a genius needs an editor.


No contradiction. It's not about filming time, but runtime in the movie. You'd need what, 30? 45? minutes for that side-story? All indicators I have from interviews is that he wanted that character, but really could not fit it into the world.

As I said, 12 hours of movie already. What's another 1/2 hour spent listening to some guy sing about how jolly he is?

Also, it's not like Jackson would have come out and said "oh yeah, the character sucks so we ditched him," when he was trying to sell the movie to hardcore Tolkien fans.


To draw the line back the the Monster in the Dark:
This is not about the authors intention about a revelation of the true nature of a certain mystery. This is, at least from my point of view, about the question if a revelation would be "good" or if it would be "better" (whatever definition of "better" is used) not-to-reveal the thing at all.

But even that aspect/question is a bit moot from my point of view, as I already stated that I'd like to see the revelation, even if it MIGHT(!!!) turn out, in retrospect, it would have been better not to reveal it.

Well, now it's my misunderstanding, because you lost me with whatever point you were trying to make there. :smallconfused:

[Meta]

The MitD is soul spliced! That's how he has such a diverse array of powers

[Nerdanel]

My Dream Larva theory also needs to be mentioned in the opening post.

Pro:
- CR well into epic.
- Very strong.
- Very hard to damage short of epic.
- Large size fits under the umbrella.
- Appears different to everyone, explaining how it can be ugly and beautiful at the same time.
- Worst Nightmare affects only those seeing it the first time, not subsequent times (the goblin family at the circus who were repeat visitors) making hiding it in magical darkness particularly sensible.

Con:
- Immune to mind-affecting effects. (But a specific interpretation of Worst Nightmare could get around that. If the thing Xykon fears most is not immune to mind-affecting effects, perhaps Xykon could use mind-affecting spells on the MitD.)
- The sight of it is a save-or-die. (But perhaps a very young one doesn't do that yet.)
- Always Chaotic Evil. (But upbringing can change even dragons and the MitD is obviously an impressionable child.)
- No Earthquake. (But perhaps high strength is enough.)
- No Wish/Teleport. (But the transportation of O-chul and V could perhaps be explained with a Dreamscape that doesn't work like it should or Sending that doesn't work like it should.)

On Sending:


Grappled victims may be

It doesn't say grappled by whom. Xykon was grappling V and O-chul.


physically sent into a nightmare, at the dream larva’s option,

Perhaps the "nightmare" part is optional. After all, powers usually don't mention that using them at all is optional, rather it is assumed as a general rule.


on the dream larva’s next action after establishing the grapple.

It again doesn't say who established the grapple.


Victims must make a Will save (DC 43) or be apparently swarmed by thousands of worms making up the dream larva’s body.

This SFX might be limited to the victims and/or be hidden by the magical darkness.


The victim is actually cast into a shrieking maelstrom of dream where it can take no actions but observe.

Do we know if the transportation was instant for V and O-chul?


The victim physically returns 2d4 rounds later,

It doesn't say where the victim reappears.


apparently ejected from the dream larva’s body (but appearing even if if the dream larva has left or is otherwise absent).

The MitD was "otherwise absent" on Azure Island.


The victim of the nightmare has taken 4d6 points of temporary Wisdom damage, but is otherwise free to act on the round it returns. If the victim takes more Wisdom damage than it has points of Wisdom, the extra points are instead treated as temporary Constitution damage.

But if the dream larva's option was not for a terrible nightmare but a gentle dream, perhaps the ability damage doesn't occur.

Yes, I know I'm rules-lawyering Sending out of recognition. However, considering our lack of options and the general tone of OOTS, I think abusing loopholes is a valid option.

BONUS: If the MitD is a dream larva, he could, as an Abomination, really be the son of Snarl too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD is soul spliced! That's how he has such a diverse array of powers

Not guessable. See Section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7455834) 1a


My Dream Larva theory also needs to be mentioned in the opening post.

And it is, and has been for four days now...

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

Oh, it looks like it has been added there since I last looked. My bad. Well, at least the Sending rules-lawyering is new. It's eerie how well it fits into the circumstances of the strip.

[Kish]

I would venture that for the word "eerie" to apply, you'd need a few fewer "well, they were being grappled, if by Xykon counts" and, "it says they come back, it doesn't say where" and, "it doesn't say the nightmare and wisdom damage aren't optional" and, "we don't know Vaarsuvius and O-Chul didn't go through a dream for 2d4 rounds before they appeared and landed on Hinjo"-style arguments.

If you're willing to hit it with a hammer that hard and selectively, it's not surprising at all that it winds up looking like a nail.

[Nerdanel]

It's still pretty unlikely that the fight ended with Xykon grappling BOTH V and O-chul at the same time, especially considering that Xykon is a caster and grappling is normally an anti-caster tactic instead of a caster tactic. I can't recall a single instance of Xykon grappling anyone during the strip. It just so happens that the Sending exploit doesn't work unless the targets are being grappled by someone else.

I had earlier come to hold a dream larva a strong candidate on other grounds, but for the first time I paid good attention on the Sending ability instead of trying to explain the escape with Dreamscape which has severe problems.

[averagejoe]

Panel 9 seems pretty definitive. If she was falling straight down it wouldn't look like that (unless it was a zoomed-out view, in which case we'd be able to see the tower nearby). Also bear in mind that in order to get outside the tower, Miko was knocked through a solid rock wall. As was her full-grown warhorse. Either way, it was no love tap.

Although....how did the monster catch up so quickly?

Rather minor point, seeing as it doesn't matter a lot, but one notices that in panel 9, if you look closely, the little arms and legs are pointing down, where in panel 10 she lands headfirst, indicating that she probably took a parabolic trajectory. Plus the mountains don't change, so probably not a zoomed out view. Again, rather minor, but it's good to be able to say more-or-less what happened.

[Cizak]

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).

Since it slept directly after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) teleporting V and O'chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) and said it became sleepy after causing the earthquake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) we can assume that doing tough abilities makes it sleepy.

[Ancalagon]

Since it slept directly after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) teleporting V and O'chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) and said it became sleepy after causing the earthquake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) we can assume that doing tough abilities makes it sleepy.

I always assumed it was just pretending to sleep. That move, after wishing Xykon's Meatbags out, is pretty likely, as "pretending to sleep" is the best way out children might know and thus is pretty much what the MitD would do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Since it slept directly after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) teleporting V and O'chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) and said it became sleepy after causing the earthquake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) we can assume that doing tough abilities makes it sleepy.

We don't have to assume that, we have evidence that it is true. What he have to assume is that he does require sleep even when he has not used his powers. I believe it is warranted, but it remains an assumption, and wrote as much.


I always assumed it was just pretending to sleep. That move, after wishing Xykon's Meatbags out, is pretty likely, as "pretending to sleep" is the best way out children might know and thus is pretty much what the MitD would do.

This has been brought up before, and I will admit I can see it happening, but MitD has been shown to get sleepy (and possibly hungrier) after the earthquake, lending weight to the theory that he is actually sleeping. Also, he looks exactly like when he was sleeping in SoD, so if he is faking it, it is indistinguishable from the real thing.

--------------

In another order of things, I have finished combing the 50 pages of the old thread, and hopefully have included every supported idea in the lists (I did skip a few ideas that where only ever mentioned by name, with no explanation given).

--------------

Finally, I have also finished Don't SPlit the Party. Unfortunately, Rich states that he has given out enough clues about MitD, and did not put anything new there (party pooper that he is). He did kill the "four words" nonsense, once and for all, though. That said, he has a throwaway reference to angels and devas not making alignment-breaking actions (as opposed to Celia, they are "embodiments of Law or Truth"). Not that the angels/devil idea for MitD hold much water, but clearly Rich sees them as embodiments of their respective moral opposites, and so very unlikely to be turned to the opposite camp by either Xykon or O'Chul.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf

[Somewhere]

No Sun Wukong or Tao Tie in the one-off or joke sections? Aww :smalltongue:

Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)
-------------
Pros: Male
~human-sized
Loads of Str; casually wields a 7,500 kg staff (~16,535 lb). Also has been shown to be able to shrug a mountain off of him.
2 golden eyes! (....though, those eyes essentially have permanent detect demon)
As a monkey, has arms and legs!
Tough/resilient (at the most relevant level: mortals attacking him have their weapons simply bounce off)
Can eat a lot (once ate clean heaven's orchard of immortality peaches)
Can make it rain on command, sorta. What he does is project his spirit up to the heavens and Intimidate-the-hell-outta a dragon king into making it rain, then he goes back into his body. He does this very quickly, actually; within few seconds?
Daoist magic; clearly defined examples of his powers include shapeshifting, jumping/flying 54,000 km in a single bound, and transform his hairs into objects or even clones of himself. But there's room left open for more powers, and Daoism is incredibly vague. Some form of D&D porting or Wish can be included, and I wouldn't blink.

Neutral: Are D&D monkeys expected or unexpected to be able to speak? Are monkeys ugly, beautiful, or meh? Although among monkey-kind, he did get the title of 'handsome monkey king'.

Cons: Born from stone formed from chaos
Sleep schedule's more or less like a normal human/monkey's
Has not been shown to eat adults; actually, once he started on the journey to the west, he has to be a vegetarian, being converted to Buddhism and whatnot :smallconfused: (pre-conversion Sun Wukong shouldn't have such a limitation...)


********************

Tao Tie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Tie)
- In one theory, is a reference to Chi You http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)
-------------
Pros: Near infinite hunger! Eats people!
Hideous to humans!
(as Chi You) is a god of rain, depending on who you ask; he's got the rain thing covered regardless
(as Chi You) also a god of war, depending on who you ask; covers the strength thing
(as Chi You) looks like half man, half bull; head covered with/made of iron
(as Chi You) is implied to be part of a race

Neutral: (as Chi You) also 'knows magic'. How....vague. Can be a con if deemed too vague.

Cons: Too little info on this one :smallyuk:
(as Chi You) ate only stones and pebbles? :smallconfused:
(as Chi You) shouldn't be surprising when it comes to speaking

[TheNovak]

Has use of a Polymorph spell been considered much? I admit that I'm a little hazy on 3.5's polymorph rules, but I believe the subject of such a spell (at least, a beneficial one) retains their mental abilities. The effect could then be made permanent through the Permanency spell, right?

If I'm not way off base with my assumptions, I thus propose a very young djinn polymorphed into a baby terrasque.

[Forbiddenwar]

Again, great job pulling everything together, Grey Wolf. I may have missed it, but if I didn't, can you edit the first post to include:
Rich determined what MitD is by strip 100, though nothing in the previous strips contradict it.
So, whatever MitD is, it must have been created or discovered before 2005, as per the date strip 100 came out (in 2004)

As more time passed, (and a new edition of D&D) we will propably get more and more newer concepts like: A tarrasque from the fourth edition, using fourth edition rules.

It would work, because there is a precendent of using 3rd edition rules against 2nd edition monsters. But 4th edition came out after 2005, right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No Sun Wukong or Tao Tie in the one-off or joke sections? Aww :smalltongue:

There were quite a few "joke" entires as I went through the pages, and I decided to restrict it to the funniest ones, by my standards. The fact I ended up with "rock" (beats scissors, looses against paper), a lolcat and the gazebo probably speaks volume about my (lack of) taste in humour rather than anything else, but there were too many only marginally funny ones that I simply didn't feel comfortable adding.

I will add those to to the one-off ideas.


Has use of a Polymorph spell been considered much? I admit that I'm a little hazy on 3.5's polymorph rules, but I believe the subject of such a spell (at least, a beneficial one) retains their mental abilities. The effect could then be made permanent through the Permanency spell, right?

If I'm not way off base with my assumptions, I thus propose a very young djinn polymorphed into a baby terrasque.

I have no idea if that is even possible by the rules, but given Rich's opinions on the matter of polymorph, I'd say it is very unlikely he thought up such thing.


I may have missed it, but if I didn't, can you edit the first post to include:[...]

I have been wondering where to put that kind of info. I've finally bitten the bullet and added it as "notes" in Section 1a, together with pointing out that "guessable" does not mean "famous".

-----

By the way, no-one has helped me with my questions on psionics (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7467290&postcount=64)). This is coming from the comment that maybe we are over-thinking the whole "MitD can't be psionic due to RC's off-hand comment". If we assume rule of funny, and don't discard psionics due to it, a few other things need to be addressed, such as why MitD didn't simply levitate the bucket instead of tipping the box. I don't know a thing about psionics, so I can't judge this myself. Is there somewhere I can go to get the basics of psionics?

Also, if we allow psionics, what teleportation psionic could be responsible for the escape?

-----

Oh, and one more thing. I've been looking for RC's comment that he knows what MitD is. I distinctly remember RC saying it, and I'm pretty certain it's in SoD, but after going through it several times, I still can't find it. A little help, please?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[tribble]

So your saying that an intellegent race that doesn't start with common is an idiot? Isn't that a little rascist? :smalltongue:

Everyone's a little bit racist!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM&feature=related:smallbiggrin:

(may be NSFW)

[HotAndCold]

RE: Redcloak knowing what the MitD is: SoD, page 88, 6th panel. "I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted."

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Everything? I don't see anything in the rest of your post about Minya being able to teleport anyone; can he?

Well... I'm drawing upon very old memories. I saw "Godzilla's Revenge" back when I was 10 or 11, and I'm 44 now. BUT! A little boy (about 8-10) named Ichiro sort of teleported to Monster Island then back again with help from Minya and some sort of computer game machine that the boy had built himself. Or the kindly toy maker from up the street had made for him. I don't remember which. Maybe they worked on it together.

There's a lot of "It was all just a Dream" to the whole thing. Both Minya and Ichiro were being picked on my someone named Gabarra (?), Ichiro by a classmate with that name, and Minya by another Monster Island denizen. Godzilla tries to teach his son to stick up for himself, and stomps on Minya's tail to get him to spew fire instead of just a smoke ring. Ichiro and Minya work together to take down monster Gabarra, the computer teleport machine gets broken somewhere along the way, and somehow Minya helps Ichiro get back home.

In the end, Ichiro returns (teleports? wakes up?) in Tokyo, somehow foils a bank robbery, then stands up to his classmate Gabarra.

Minya himself is obscure, but Godzilla is well known as the biggest and baddest monster of them all.

Teleport others is the tricky power, but Rich specifically states he didn't make up the monster that the MitD is from the whole cloth, and that it would be guessable. Templated template beast doesn't really fit the guessable, created by someone else statement, nor does the Tarrasque for several reasons.

[Selene]

Finally, I have also finished Don't SPlit the Party. Unfortunately, Rich states that he has given out enough clues about MitD, and did not put anything new there (party pooper that he is). He did kill the "four words" nonsense, once and for all, though.

Oh, I love Rich just a little bit more on hearing that. :smallbiggrin: Thank you, Giant!!!

[Bagelz]

so i looked through the updates, (the most recent first post as of today) and my new favorite idea is "the scariest box ever" ever. or some other joke like that.

[Tao the Ninja]

have any of the people who say it can't be snorlax because of the copyright considered that Rich could, hypothetically, gotten permissian from Nintendo? He does use the pokeballs alot...

[Kish]

Teleport others is the tricky power, but Rich specifically states he didn't make up the monster that the MitD is from the whole cloth, and that it would be guessable. Templated template beast doesn't really fit the guessable, created by someone else statement, nor does the Tarrasque for several reasons.
On that, we agree. If Minya can't teleport others (if--I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, merely noting the ambiguity), then I doubt very much it's Minya. But in any case, I will never sign off on the "template pile" or "something tarrasque" ideas.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

On that, we agree. If Minya can't teleport others (if--I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, merely noting the ambiguity), then I doubt very much it's Minya. But in any case, I will never sign off on the "template pile" or "something tarrasque" ideas.

A woman after my own heart. :smallsmile:

Anyways, I can't say for sure that Minya, or any of the Japanese Rubber Suit Brigade beasties can teleport others. Or self, either. The only "monster" I remember teleporting others was maybe a Togopi, but it was my daughter who was the Pokemon fan, not me. Unfortunatly, Togopi doesn't fit any of the other parameters.

Snorlax fits the size, but I don't know about the rest. I only remember him sleeping a lot, and blocking a bridge. Stomp/Earthquake, Teleport Others, High DR. High Damage, childlike mannerism? None ring a bell.

I'm thinking that only the Japanese Azurite characters use Pokeballs for their Summon Animal Companion abilities as a joke, since V doesn't use a Pokeball for Blackwing.

As for other games or stories with various monsters? The Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Golden Sun and Pokemon games have critters than can do some of the things the MitD can do, but not all.

What monster, besides a djinni, can cast "Wish?" A child djinn/efreet might be the answer, and at least it's a somewhat original idea. Or at least I haven't seen that one before...

[Somewhere]

Snorlax has high attack; not tops in 1st gen, but top 10% material probably?
Very high HP; top ten material in 1st gen. Most likely top 5; only one I know off the top of my head that would beat him is Chansey.
Can learn Earthquake through TM. Can possess Metronome if evolved from Munchlax, and Metronome in story form is the 'does whatever the hell the plot demands' move. Game version of Metronome is 'do a random move'; I don't remember if the pool of moves is restricted to just TM moves or if it's all non-unique moves. It shouldn't matter too much, as Teleport is a TM move. Or was, rather. It was back in 1st gen, but then later games retconned that particular TM into a different move.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Snorlax fits the size, but I don't know about the rest. I only remember him sleeping a lot, and blocking a bridge. Stomp/Earthquake, Teleport Others, High DR. High Damage, childlike mannerism? None ring a bell.

Actually, two of those are pure Snorlax: " can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes."

The damage resistance could be seen as the uselessness of attacking his belly, and the teleport can be explained by invoking the all-powerful metronome attack (plot-controlled, that is). Believe me, we've been down this road before. Snorlax fits, so much better than anything else we have tried, it's ridiculous.


I'm thinking that only the [S]Japanese Azurite characters use Pokeballs for their Summon Animal Companion abilities as a joke, since V doesn't use a Pokeball for Blackwing.

The paladins do summon their animal companions. V doesn't summon anything - Blackwing is always with him/her, V just forgets about him. Not the same thing at all.


What monster, besides a djinni, can cast "Wish?" A child djinn/efreet might be the answer, and at least it's a somewhat original idea. Or at least I haven't seen that one before...

See, that is why I listed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7455834&postcount=1) all the ideas that have been proposed. Check it out, you'll find the genie listed, and the reasons why it doesn't float as an idea.

Grey Wolf

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Actually, two of those are pure Snorlax: "[Snorlax] can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes."

The damage resistance could be seen as the uselessness of attacking his belly, and the teleport can be explained by invoking the all-powerful metronome attack (plot-controlled, that is). Believe me, we've been down this road before. Snorlax fits, so much better than anything else we have tried, it's ridiculous.
I'm not opposed to Snorlax, except for the reason you posted in the Legal Issues subsection. And Minya would most likely fall under that clause as well. The Godzilla Brigade is still the intellectual property of Toho Co, just as Snorlax is the IP of Gamefreak and Nintendo. And I didn't know about the metronome attack, or that it was essentially a Wish spell.

So I wonder if either creature is eligible to be the MitD, and if not, what creature out there in the Public Domain fits all the requirements?

The paladins do summon their animal companions. V doesn't summon anything - Blackwing is always with him/her, V just forgets about him. Not the same thing at all.
Meh, fair enough. But we haven't seen anyone else summon any creatures. Or if Leeky Windstaff did, I don't remember him using a Pokeball to do it.

OK, I double checked. No Pokeball. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)


See, that is why I listed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7455834&postcount=1) all the ideas that have been proposed. Check it out, you'll find the genie listed, and the reasons why it doesn't float as an idea.

Grey Wolf
Yeah, but you left Minya off the list!

[Forbiddenwar]

Remember wish is not a requirement. The be nightmares down that road. We need a wish, or a teleport, or other long range movement capability. I hate to open up this can of worms, but is there teleport in 2nd edition? 4th? 1st? Have the rules for teleport, particularly caster included, remained the same for all editions of D&D?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Remember wish is not a requirement. The be nightmares down that road. We need a wish, or a teleport, or other long range movement capability. I hate to open up this can of worms, but is there teleport in 2nd edition? 4th? 1st? Have the rules for teleport, particularly caster included, remained the same for all editions of D&D?

Oh, I know we don't need wish. But it is amazing how few creatures have teleportation - plane shift is a lot more common, even if it doesn't quite fit. But I'll take "maze" and the nightmare thing from the dream larva as possibilities.

I've said it before, and I suspect I'll say it again, but MitD will probably not actually fit all the clues. I'm half-expecting he will be psionic (Protean fits well if not for that), or some other characteristic we have discarded and that Rich has simply overlooked or bent for rule of funny/plot reasons.


Meh, fair enough. But we haven't seen anyone else summon any creatures. Or if Leeky Windstaff did, I don't remember him using a Pokeball to do it.[/URL]

Still not a summon (notice the "come to me"). Paladin mounts are summoned from their respective planes of existence. The druid's and the wizard's animal companions are not summoned, they're always around.


Yeah, but you left Minya off the list!

The trademarked list is the least comprehensive, because they really are non-starters. But I've added "Godzilla and pals" now.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I agree. I'm expecting whatever the creature in the darkness is to fit as well as Sabine fits Succubus, or Miko fits Paladin...but not much better.

[Selene]

have any of the people who say it can't be snorlax because of the copyright considered that Rich could, hypothetically, gotten permissian from Nintendo? He does use the pokeballs alot...

Yes, but why would he? Permission = $$. It's not a funny/amusing/interesting enough concept to justify paying eternal royalties to Nintendo, when he could have just made MitD something else.

[Tao the Ninja]

Just realized, cannot possibly be Munchlax. Issue 100 was around 04/05, Diamond/Pearl came out 07. Snorlax is still a maybe (red/blue were what, 97?).

[SPoD]

I've said it before, and I suspect I'll say it again, but MitD will probably not actually fit all the clues. I'm half-expecting he will be psionic (Protean fits well if not for that), or some other characteristic we have discarded and that Rich has simply overlooked or bent for rule of funny/plot reasons.

In that vein, we don't actually KNOW that the MITD has been affected by Xykon's mind-affecting spell, because we haven't actually seen the MITD take actions because of it. All we saw were swirly eyes. For all we know, if the moment comes that Redcloak betrays Xykon, the MITD could stand around going, "Suggestion? What suggestion?"

[Ellye]

In that vein, we don't actually KNOW that the MITD has been affected by Xykon's mind-affecting spell, because we haven't actually seen the MITD take actions because of it. All we saw were swirly eyes. For all we know, if the moment comes that Redcloak betrays Xykon, the MITD could stand around going, "Suggestion? What suggestion?"Yep, that's a possibility I consider too.

Personally, I think that the best fit so far is that the MitD is a deity of some kind, maybe in the form of a dire <creature here> avatar. This can also explain why apparently only Redcloak recognized him for what he is.

[Allan Surgite]

This can also explain why apparently only Redcloak recognized him for what he is.
Can't forget the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters.

Nice compilation of theories and whatnot, here. Don't have any suggestions of my own, though D:

[Nerdanel]

Looking through the ideas listed as one-off, Protean is pretty good, but the MitD constantly having two yellow eyes next to each other is a big strike against it, since it's supposed to be changing constantly if it doesn't concentrate on not changing.

[Moogleking]

Still not a summon (notice the "come to me"). Paladin mounts are summoned from their respective planes of existence. The druid's and the wizard's animal companions are not summoned, they're always around.Grey Wolf

Redcloak's elementals didn't.

[Forbiddenwar]

Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?

[monomer]

Looking through the ideas listed as one-off, Protean is pretty good, but the MitD constantly having two yellow eyes next to each other is a big strike against it, since it's supposed to be changing constantly if it doesn't concentrate on not changing.

I was looking through the one-off ideas, and I really liked the Protean idea as well. It also explains why Rich hasn't uncovered him yet, since having to draw something constantly changing shapes can't be fun, so he wants to delay that day as long as possible. :smallbiggrin:

You are correct, though, that the eyes really are a problem. I guess I could claim that someone has cast an illusion in the darkness just so that people could have a point of reference while talking to him, but that's just silly.

[Ellye]

Can't forget the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters.I don't think that the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters actually had a clue about what the MitD was. Remember, they are Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, and Stereotyped Big Game Hunters will never admit that they don't have a clue about some big game - specially not in front of another big game hunter.

Also, if MitD is a deity in a physical form, his avatar might be resemble some variation of a known kind of animal or creature.

Another thing to mention about the Deity idea is that Rich says that the line between what is his creation and what is not is a blurry one - this applies very well to the OotS deities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think that the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters actually had a clue about what the MitD was. Remember, they are Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, and Stereotyped Big Game Hunters will never admit that they don't have a clue about some big game - specially not in front of another big game hunter.

Do you have some evidence for that? Because I've read quite a few stories with some variant of "the great white hunter" (Quatermain & co.), and they don't strike me like that at all. Indeed, there is two arguments why we can trust the SBGH's clue:

1) In-universe, SBGH are, precisely because they are stereotypical, all-knowing about the things they catch. By D&D rules, they have maximised knowledge(nature), if you want to look at it that way. Knowing everything in a jungle is what a SBGH is all about, regardless of your assertion.

2) Beyond the comic itself, Rich has stated that there are a lot of clues about MitD in SoD. If the one chapter dedicated to MitD turns out to be misdirection, i.e. the guys that are confident they just got hold of an extremely rare and valuable creature are wrong about what it is, then Rich is basically toying with us, and his promise that MitD can be "guessed" is empty, since there is no way to tell what is a red herring from what is a real clue.


Another thing to mention about the Deity idea is that Rich says that the line between what is his creation and what is not is a blurry one - this applies very well to the OotS deities.

I don't see how that applies to deities any more than it applies to anything else. He said that he did not invent MitD - and then admits that someone else did, and that's where the "blurry line" comes in - MitD will turn out to be something like "a therblewurkersaurus", i.e. completely made up, but he chooses to separate what he made up from what everyone else made up, and that is a fine line to draw in the vast expanse of fiction creatures, but he chooses to draw it nevertheless.

Does that discard a God? No, but then, the classic twist of "fallen God that has lost its memory" is more than a little overused, it's not the kind of trope you can use on a secondary character, and in general doesn't really fit the clues - most importantly, the father clue, or the horrible appearance clue (unless the avatar of some D&D diety happens to be the dream larva - but from what I remember, they tend to be far more mundane animals: monkeys, cows, etc).

Grey Wolf

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm beginning to think that MitD is a demigod or abomination - specifically, offspring of the greek pantheon. So, what big ugly monsters are there in greek mythology that fall in that category? I mean, Zeus got around quite a lot.

[Tao the Ninja]

Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?

It's probably just self-conscious

[dragon95046]

RedCloak suggest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)

This could just mean that he is made of, or contains portions of, onyx, the material component in the Animate Dead spell.

It's earthquake causing abilities, it's immense strength and maybe its onyx body tend to lend credence towards an earth elementalish type of creature, though its apparent need to sleep and eat would mean not a true earth elemental.

[Forbiddenwar]

It's probably just self-conscious

in sod



:mitd:"Wow, today's show was sure tough."
:smallconfused:"You did the same thing you do every show-stand out on stage and get gawked at"
:mitd:"Yeah, but there were a lot of people in the audience today. Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many.

And

:redcloak: Do you like it here?
:mitd: I guess. I get all the stew I can eat, but . . . they make a lot of people look at me, which is hard.



Draw your own conclusions

[silversaraph]

Just realized, cannot possibly be Munchlax. Issue 100 was around 04/05, Diamond/Pearl came out 07. Snorlax is still a maybe (red/blue were what, 97?).

I still think that the Mitd could be a baby Snorlax, even if the baby name hadn't been thought up yet.

At the very least, it's overwhelmingly likely to me that :mitd: is a baby/child of some kind, based on author commentary comparing :mitd: to a child here, talking about his past, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) how any food involving babies makes him feel weird, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) and how he loves to play monopoly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) And of course, all the random comics of him playing with toys and acting generally like a child...

I love the baby Snorlax theory, and even if the Munchlax name was made after Rich had decided who :mitd: is, the spells fitting to Munchlax were used after Munchlax had been made. Plus, comic 651 of how he describes his dad screams SNORLAX! to me.

Speculate with or against me now! :smallsmile:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I love the baby Snorlax theory, and even if the Munchlax name was made after Rich had decided who :mitd: is, the spells fitting to Munchlax were used after Munchlax had been made. Plus, comic 651 of how he describes his dad screams SNORLAX! to me.

Speculate with or against me now! :smallsmile:

There is no need to speculate. Snorlax is trademarked, and Rich cannot use it for a main character without paying Nintendo more than he makes off the comic.

Also, being realistic, the circus' reactions do not match Snorlax all that well.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?

It was the reason I (half jokingly) proposed Vorlon in the last thread. The problem in my opinion is that we know so little about Vorlons that you could claim they fit well, they *might* love to eat Stew, they *might* be able to cause earthquakes, they *might* be able to open jump gates with the power of thier mind (to help V and O'Chul escape).

The problem is all of this is pure speculation with no real evidence to support it. As I see it, Vorlon only has 2 things going for it:
They get tired when lots of people look at them
Rich is known to be a big Babylon 5 fan


I just don't think it's worth serious consideration, though as you can see from my signature, I hope it is a Vorlon... it would be SO cool.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Section 3e: Joke Ideas
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lorch/humor/gazebo.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):
-Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?



You cannot grasp the true form of the MitD's attacks! Therefore; MitD is Giygas!

Okay, I've made my lame joke for the day. Carry on with your awesome business.

[silversaraph]

There is no need to speculate. Snorlax is trademarked, and Rich cannot use it for a main character without paying Nintendo more than he makes off the comic.

No one says he can't alter the name a bit. If he does so, it's considered an act of parody even though everyone on the planet can tell what he's talking about. OR, it's even possible they didn't ask for a bundle of money, OR it's even possible he's just ignoring them completely, considering there are probably a bunch of loopholes that protect him in some way.

Seriously though, if you momentarily ignore the copyright thing it is the best theory, and you shouldn't dismiss those though without a discussion.

[Forbiddenwar]

No one says he can't alter the name a bit. If he does so, it's considered an act of parody even though everyone on the planet can tell what he's talking about. OR, it's even possible they didn't ask for a bundle of money, OR it's even possible he's just ignoring them completely, considering there are probably a bunch of loopholes that protect him in some way.

Seriously though, if you momentarily ignore the copyright thing it is the best theory, and you shouldn't dismiss those though without a discussion.

1) Actually, the copyright law says he cannot just make a small alteration, like changing the name. It would still be a derivative work, in clear violation of copywrite.
2) the criteria for a work to be considered a parody, and therefore qualify for fair use, are quite elaborate. Rich has ZERO chance of getting his work as a whole considered a parody of pokemon.
3) Snorlax only wakes to eat, and only sleeps when he is done eating. This does not sound like MITD at all. Also, while snorlax has great strength, he does not have a teleport ability, nor is he shown to require sleep after using Metronome, and does not have earthquake.
4) putting aside copywrite, Snorlax is not the best theory. There are far too many holes. Behavior is another one, and MITD cannot be a baby snorlax because it didn't exist prior to 2005, which would mean Rich had to make it up. Also, a baby snorlax would not have the requisite strength.

I have serious doubts that Rich is foolish enough to ignore the consequences of copyright violation. To do so, would open himself to a huge lawsuit, say 10 million for each appearance of MITD, and the recall of every single printed material. I really hope Rich isn't that foolish. I would like to continue reading the order of the stick and be able to purchase the books.

[Somewhere]

Technicality: Snorlax can learn Earthquake through TM

[Watcher]

Remember that 3.5 Earthquake doesn't quite match up with OotS's Earthquake-like effect. I know Rich has modified some spells, but I just wanted to point it out.

[ScottishDragon]

If the Mitd WAS a snorlax,wouldn't it be sleeping at least half the time?I have never seen the mitd be sleeping for long periods of time in the comic,and a snorlax only eats and sleeps.

[Grugnar]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I didn't see it in the original post. What if the MitD is from 1st or 2nd edition D&D, and is still using those rules? There's been multiple references to earlier editions in the strip, and the big clue is this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html

Older edition monsters that were never updated still exist. Persumably still using their old rules. So what if the MitD has a 2nd edition str of 25? That would certainly allow him to do the things he does. Maybe we've been looking in the wrong monster manual.

Here's the main hangup to my theory: If he's an older monster, why wasn't he drawn into the room with the others by the amulet's power? I don't have a good answer to that. Perhaps he's resistant, or maybe the amulet only lured the monsters in when it was initially placed, and the MitD was brought from another plane or something since.

[Selene]

I've been through the 1st Edition Monster Manual, and I didn't see anything that fit. Haven't gone through the Field Folio or Deities and Demigods, though. And I don't have the 1st ed. MMII.

[Zxo]

I think MiTD is a DnD creature. All major monsters we've seen are from DnD (correct me if I'm wrong) and while we get a lot of references to general pop-culture in the comic, actual appearances of creatures from non-DnD books/movies/whatever have been one-off jokes like G.I. Joe. It would kind of destroy the consistency of OoTS in this regard if one of the main characters would be from a different world. (I'm aware there's no hard evidence for or against).

Maybe the hunters' reaction ("didn't expect to see it here") was not about the jungle not being its environment, but MitD being from a different edition/ type of setting. OoTS characters have shown knowledge of them (editions at least).

I think we should be looking in the less popular sources - for example I have the 2.0 Spelljammer Monstrous Manual Appendix II and there are some weird creatures in there - nothing fits MitD, but some have the level of weirdness and power that makes me think MitD (if it is a DnD creature) is likely to be something from one or another obscure appendix like that. Anyone has a full list of those books (including the ones from previous editions)?

[Nerdanel]

If the MitD is an untemplated creature it almost needs to be epic. (I suppose CR 20 or close to it might just be possible.) Epic Level Handbook has already been combed through and some good candidates found. I don't have access to Deities & Demigods but it sounds like it might be worth checking out as are those old D&D supplements like Immortals.

[Acero]

don't know if its been stated before, but we know he can read.

he read the title of Serni's diary

[Moogleking]

don't know if its been stated before, but we know he can read.

he read the title of Serni's diary

Nice catch :smalltongue:

[Acero]

Nice catch :smalltongue:

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

[Moogleking]

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

Well it means he's not a Barbarian, so that old "MitD is Kragoor!!" joke is gone :smalltongue:

[Forbiddenwar]

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm
If you can speak a language, you can read it. Since MitD can speak common, he can also read it. this applies for anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate.

He must have an Int of 3 or higher, less and he would (as I interpret the rules) have the int of an animal and be unable to speak or read common.

[hamishspence]

Depends on the book. In Races of Faerun some races are more illiterate than others, with the most extreme being orcs- any NPC class counts as illiterate, for them.

[Forbiddenwar]

Depends on the book. In Races of Faerun some races are more illiterate than others, with the most extreme being orcs- any class other than Wizard, counds as illiterate, for them.

This is not to say that MitD is a 20th level wizard orc, is it? Just kidding :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

I wonder how it applies to monster races that can speak, but don't generally come into contact with reading materials. Say, wyverns.

[Kish]

Well it means he's not a Barbarian, so that old "MitD is Kragoor!!" joke is gone :smalltongue:
No, it just needs to add Kraagor having at least one level of fighter. Or rogue or ranger, but those would mean an XP penalty.

[Forbiddenwar]

No, it just needs to add Kraagor having at least one level of fighter. Or rogue or ranger, but those would mean an XP penalty.

or he could have used a single skill point to become literate.

But, no Kraagor cannot be MitD. The idea is defeated by section 1a.

[Asta Kask]

or he could have used a single skill point to become literate.

But, no Kraagor cannot be MitD. The idea is defeated by section 1a.

Also, he would know about the gates.

[Acero]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm
If you can speak a language, you can read it.

most very young humans can speak a language, but not read it.

there even adults living in rural countries who can't read their native language.
(ex. 2012. the Chinese officer had to ask a large group of adults which ones can read and write)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

most very young humans can speak a language, but not read it.

there even adults living in rural countries who can't read their native language.
(ex. 2012. the Chinese officer had to ask a large group of adults which ones can read and write)

In this world, yes. But in D&D, the rules are different, and the comic runs in D&D rules, and has been lampshaded often enough. In D&D, if you talk a language, you can read it, unless your type says otherwise. Since MitD almost certainly belongs to a type that cannot speak, I doubt it has the exception. However it is that MitD learnt to talk (plot-induced, I tend to think), it came with reading.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

I've been through the 1st Edition Monster Manual, and I didn't see anything that fit. Haven't gone through the Field Folio or Deities and Demigods, though. And I don't have the 1st ed. MMII.

I actually did go though 1st Edition:
Monster Manual
Monster Manual 2
Fiend Folio
Legends and lore (=deities and demigods)


I found nothing I considered to be a good fit, I could have missed something. I mean things like a Solar and Pit Fiend were in there, but since we already have 3.5 stats for such monsters and they are similar, I didn't really worry about them too much. I was looking for things that are not in 3.5 edition or 3.0 edition. I don't have any 2nd edition books though, so can't check there.

Also, if MitD was an "outdated" monster, it's just occured to me that Dorukan's talisman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) would have affected it along with the flumphs and other creatures. I mean, that could have happened off panel I guess and we just didn't see it, if that's what happened.

[Soranar]

the main problem with most ideas is we assume MITD teleported O Chul, and we only have roaches as witnesses, honestly I would dismiss that

the earthquake thing is obviously him

again the rain is highly debatable, I personally don't think he did it either

the fact that it can speak probably means that it's smarter than it's supposed to be

so I'm going back to the Tarrasque

1rst Dad would be big
2nd it's not a looker (vomitting inducing, not sure)
3rd it can cause scare
4th really really strong
5th the Tarrasque is immune to mind effect if it's normally stupid (1-2 INT) but since this one can talk it would not be immune
6th if sylphs are this big, why not a midget sized baby Tarrasque?

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

Tarrasque is not epic - the dream larva and the dread linnorm are. And if you are going to dismiss O'Chul's escape, you need to suggest what else caused it, because nothing else has been shown to have been involved, and the timing is just too perfect for it not to have been MitD.

Also, immunity to mind effects increases with increased intelligence, not the other way round. And you have neither addressed size issues (MitD has not grown in 30 years) nor reproduction issues: Tarrasque is unique, and does not reproduce, except in one specific planet which probably is not part of the OotSverse.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

the main problem with most ideas is we assume MITD teleported O Chul, and we only have roaches as witnesses, honestly I would dismiss that

the earthquake thing is obviously him

again the rain is highly debatable, I personally don't think he did it either

the fact that it can speak probably means that it's smarter than it's supposed to be

so I'm going back to the Tarrasque

1rst Dad would be big
2nd it's not a looker (vomitting inducing, not sure)
3rd it can cause scare
4th really really strong
5th the Tarrasque is immune to mind effect if it's normally stupid (1-2 INT) but since this one can talk it would not be immune
6th if sylphs are this big, why not a midget sized baby Tarrasque?

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

The Highect CR I have seen of any creature in 3.5 or 3.0 source books is a great wyrm prismatic dragon with a CR of 66. It's from the epic level handbook. Unless you count the gods from deities and demigods, I don't believe any creature has a higher CR from an official source book. Of course if MitD is a prismatic dragon, he isn't a great wyrm. Other ages have lower CRs, but even a Wyrmling (youngest age) has a CR of 14.

Other serious candidates include the dream larva at CR 31. The Dread Linnorm has a CR of 25. All of these three creatures have a reasonable explanation for the "Escape" ability (wish or dreamscape), though Prismatic Dragons don't get wish till they are adults.

The Trasque has a CR of "only" 20. So compared to even these three creatures above, the trasque is a wimp. OK, so a CR of 20 is still pretty high, most likely high enough for Xykon to consider it scary.

However, we have some evidence that the CR or Mitd is 27 or higher. Back in strip 191 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), Xkyon says to Mitd about his tower that "there's nothing in there any scarier than you.... correction, any scarier than you SHOULD be".

Now there is a silver dragon in there, seen dead in strip 195 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html). From purely the on line strips, we don't know what age category it is, however as someone else pointed out in the last thread, in "no cure for the paladin blues", in the bonus strip 194b, Redcloak notes that it's an ancient silver dragon. As someone else pointed out too, bonus strips are considered cannon by Rich.

We know from strip 657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) that Xykon has some very specific views about power and strength. He seems to value raw power over finesse and this attitude can be seen too near the start of "Start of Darkness". I'd say that Xykon's assesement of power of a creature would be roughly in line with the CR.

Given this, if Xykon knew there was likely to be an ancient silver dragon in his tower (he might not have) which has a CR of 26. We could assume MitD has a CR of 27 or higher.

It's not certain, but it's something to think about when considering CRs.

[hamishspence]

the gods in Deities and Demigods (and Faiths and Pantheons) don't actually have CRs in their statblocks.

The ones in D20 Cthulhu (which follow D&D statblock rules) do- but the highest is CR 50.

Dragon Magazine has a few higher ones, but thats not exactly a sourcebook.

[lothos]

the gods in Deities and Demigods (and Faiths and Pantheons) don't actually have CRs in their statblocks.

The ones in D20 Cthulhu (which follow D&D statblock rules) do- but the highest is CR 50.

Dragon Magazine has a few higher ones, but thats not exactly a sourcebook.

I hadn't thought of Dragon Magazine. It would be interesting if someone had the time and inclination to look through any high CR monsters (say CR>=20) from Dragon Magazine. There may be candidates in there we have not considered.

I wonder what the copyright situation would be with a monster from Dragon ? Are they released as part of the SRD ? I assume not.

[Forbiddenwar]

I wonder what the copyright situation would be with a monster from Dragon ? Are they released as part of the SRD ? I assume not.

Since OotS is clearly a parody of D&D, it doesn't matter. Fair Use would allow a D&D creature, where it won't allow a pokemon.

[Ris]

I'm just catching up on the discussion here, and I missed the first thread, so thank you SO much for the organized OP and all the new research and comic links that followed.

I have several random comments and observations to add, ending with my guess... This is a very long post because I've had 695 strips, and this whole thread above, and the research from its predecessor thread, to build on, and subsequently a lot to say... and lo in days to come when your children come to the smoking ruin that was once this thread... I can cast "sleep" just like V :smalltongue:

----

I don't believe the MitD is a "named mob". He can't be any uniquely recognized character with a name like Mickey Mouse or Chuck Norris or Godzilla, not simply for legal reasons, but because he's a unique OOTS character, with his own name: The Monster in the Darkness. His species creature type can be guessed, but not his name.

Maybe he's a Radioactive T-Rex, but he can't be Godzilla. Maybe he's a giant moth, but he can't be Mothra. Maybe a dragon, but not Smaug. etc.

----

On the child-like nature of MitD: Elan is an adult of his species, but that does not stop him from being child-like, well beyond a realistic level for his physical age. Elan's not a baby, he just acts like one. It's entirely possible (and likely IMO) that the MitD is an adult of his species, but he has a child-like nature.

----

I didn't see any commentary on MitD's alignment. Are there any leading guesses on that? He hangs out with Xykon and Redcloak, but he's a minion that they keep in a cage, so not necessarily lawful evil like they are. He's considered a monster (creature type), but that doesn't automatically grant him an evil alignment. O-Chul calls him a good man. He has a good sense of loyalty, suggesting a good alignment, but he doesn't seem to act like a Lawful character, more like a Neutral or Chaotic. Possibly Neutral/Good? Neutral/Neutral?

----

The idea of guessing MitD's creature type based on his stats and feats strikes me like using O-Chul's list of spells and feats to guess that Xykon is a Lich. Is that the only possible strategy? You could guess that he's a sorcerer (class) of a certain level (what, 20ish?) and get some clues that he's undead, but could it tell you he's a Lich specifically?

Those are all valuable clues, but I don't think Rich's intent is for the MitD's creature type to be guessed only by those who study arcane tomes of monster manuals.

In OOTS style it should be something that would be obvious to any RPG player, whether you play more classic D&D or left that behind for WoW (like I did), and I've never heard of a Snorlax, so that suggestion, as close of a guess as it sounds from the description, strikes me as outside the "super cannon" of D&Dish RPGish lore that OOTS draws from, or its too specific. I don't think it could be a Snorlax any more than it could be a Tauren because that's too specific to one particular game, instead of generic enough to be in any and all RPGs.

The MitD's creature type should be staring us in the face, not buried at the back of a supplement to the first edition rules. Something obvious enough and generic enough that it would be in any fantasy RPG. Something like an Orc.

----

Have there even been any Orcs in OOTS? We see lots and lots of Goblins, but where are the Orcs?

----

Snarl Jr.... no, I agree, for good reasons pointed out above... however...

Child of the Snarl ... originating out of the Snarl ... is a line of thinking I believe still has merit.

MitD is central to the story, and his revelation will be a climactic moment. As such, what he is must be related to the central plot of the Snarl and the Gates.

The end of the most recent book shows us a world within a world behind the snarl. The revelation of what is that world will also be a central plot point. (and Rich speaks to it in the DStP commentary)

I'm starting to think that MitD is from that other world. That wouldn't make him a baby Snarl (creature type) but that would still make him a metaphorical child of the Snarl.

----

And what is that other world? It's the Snarlverse.
(this is my guess, I have nothing to back it up except the following reasoning)

The only word I can think of to describe it is video-gamey: the Snarlverse is the Ootsverse's PTR of unreleased content from the next edition.

Consider what the Snarl is: the endless argument over "nerf this and buff that" that results in patches to the rules to make newer versions of AD&D 3.5 and 4.0.

In every session of D&D that I ever played with dice and paper ("table-top" is a bad name for it because my group sat on the floor a lot and rolled on our books instead of the carpet :smallwink:) it was required in each 8-hour session every sunday that we had to have at least one snarling fight over the rules, aka The Snarl, and our D&D-verse had many Rifts from the official rules (house rules) where the Snarl had torn it apart, just like in OOTS.

I believe the Snarl and the Rifts are Rich's nod to that ever-present fight over the rules (and indeed, IMO the very existence of RPGs with thick rulebooks are a result of that same fight breaking out between me and my 7 year old friends in the backyard imagination game that always broke into a fight over "hey, you can't do that!". too bad writing a thick rulebook didn't stop our run-away imaginations from creating the Snarl anyway)

That suggests that the newer world inside the Snarl, the Snarlverse, is the next edition rules as they are still being formed out of that argument.

The very first episode 1 of OOTS shows the Order being upgraded to the 3.5 rules. The makers of the gates to contain the snarl had access to older edition monsters. Haley's father was a first edition Thief (second edition? either way, an earlier edition). This shows a flow of the rules patches through the Ootsverse as the Snarlverse grows out from inside the world to become the next edition of the Ootsverse.

The idea that epic long-played PCs from the previous campaign retired to set up powerful gates to defend these Rifts is the perfect way to represent the house rules, rule alterations, or Rule of Plot thing your DM would do for your group's characters when you decide to retire that party and reroll new characters to form The Order of the Stick, and start a whole new campaign with low level characters, under the next edition rules, so you can level up again and not fight exclusively epic level monsters.

----

If MitD is from that other world, then it means he's a newer edition monster.

At the circus, humans of the Ootsverse behold him as both terrifying and beautiful. As a WoW player looking at unreleased patch notes, I view the new monsters in the same way: both terrifying and beautiful, so powerful, and yet so juicy.

The humans are looking at a new mob... so hideous, and yet strangely beautiful.

The goblins in the audience react as if they could be looking at the buffs they can expect in the next patch. They have a nonplussed attitude, with an unsaid "Meh, that looks OK."

Perhaps that makes him a 4th edition goblin.

But it was pointed out above that 4th edition wasn't released yet by the earliest date when Rich declared the MitD was a guessable creature type, and as well as for legal reasons, he can't be specifically a WotC 4th edition AD&D Goblin, from page N of the Monster Manual, Copyright (C) 2004. (or whatever)

Plus Rich would have no way of knowing whether Goblins got a big buff in 4th edition D&D. To say he's a 4th edition goblin is too specific...

----

So I believe he is a Prototype Next Edition Goblin, an outcropping of the Snarl, who fell through a Rift from the Snarlverse into the Ootsverse before his list of feats and stats had been completely finalized, while he was still being debated and play tested.

One of the gods suggested a buff to goblins that was eaten by the Snarl and spit out a rift to become the MitD.

That leaves him strongly overpowered, without knowing his own strength, and very immature, with a narrow character definition due to his incompleteness.

But he's still a goblin: a guessable, recognizable, deceptively obvious, any-RPG creature type.

----

He's a baby in the sense that his definition in the monster manual is as immature as his character. His page in the monster manual is a young baby, but his character sheet says he's an adult. So he acts like a child in OOTS style humor.

----

He's overpowered because everyone in the next edition will be overpowered compared to the current one, no matter which RPG you're talking about, and to make it worse, he's even more overpowered because he's from the PTR... OK it's not WoW, so PTR is the wrong word, but he was still being play-tested, he's like a house rule, or a proposed buff to Goblins, that fell through the Rift, so he's not even remotely fair in the game balance, especially vs. 3.5 PCs that don't have their 4.0 buffs yet.

The clues in his powers could easily be, not the specific powers themselves, but the overall idea that he's dramatically overpowered. There is ample evidence that's he's overpowered, if you look past the individual abilities he has used, and see the forest for the trees. The individual powers that are easy to focus on as clues and ask "what has X STR value? and >= 3 INT? and can cast Escape? (or whatever spell that was)" and so on could be red herrings in front of the bigger idea that he's obviously very overpowered to be in the same game with characters like the Order and Xykon.

Don't forget that Ootsverse is a game world, and on the question of MitD's challenge rating, a minion can't be harder than the end-boss, so Xykon's CR is an upper bound for MitD, because the Order will have to pass through MitD to get to Xykon eventually. There's evidence described above with good reasoning that MitD's CR should be >= 27 (to compare with the silver dragon), but isn't Xykon's CR less than that? I haven't read any of the Xykon's level guessing threads recently, but I vaguely recall the leading theory is that he's about level 20, which makes his CR 20, right? The specific number doesn't matter for my reasoning here as long as Xykon is considered less powerful than the silver dragon.

The loophole for this would be that in the next edition rules, MitD has a very low CR (vs. 4.0 PCs), but being from the next edition, his (low) CR is out of scale for the current rule set, so Xykon gets to control him as a minion on a technicality, because on paper it says his CR is only 3 or something (vs. PCs from 4.0)

----

Redcloak knows what MitD is because he understands the nature of the Snarl. He can recognize the future in MitD and from that alone knows the MitD could kill them all. (Note that Redcloak also wants Goblins to be equally respected to PCs, maybe as a playable race, and I think that's also significant in all this)

Xykon also knows, and says (lazy misquoting) "nothing is as scary in that tower as you are, or at least as you SHOULD be," because Xykon is the type of arch villain who commands legions of goblins, and so of course he believes the next edition goblin should be more powerful, no matter how overpowered the MitD already is. Whether he's a Goblin or something else, to Xykon, he's a Next Edition Minion.

MitD doesn't know what he is because he's incomplete.

----

MitD's father was as big, maybe bigger... I'm thinking his father was another unreleased version of a next edition goblin within the Snarl, even bigger and more overpowered than the MitD, before they nerfed him (but not enough yet).

----

Diet, and love for Stew... his incomplete definition in the unreleased next edition monster manual says his creature type eats stew... a common humanoid monster definition kind of thing to say IMO especially for something like a goblin, orc, troll, or ogre. But the gods in the Snarl didn't get past that yet, since they're still arguing over his stats and powers, so as a Snarlverse creature type which has not yet been flushed out completely into a full Ootsverse creature type, he isn't motivated to do other things that haven't been defined for him yet. He just loves to eat lots of stew.

That incompleteness makes his character narrow (in such a deep and wonderful way) and I could totally see Rich poking fun at how humanoid monster types like that are always eating stew.

----

He speaks, and he speaks common... He speaks common because he's going to be a playable race in the next edition... this explains why the SBGH are surprised he speaks common (instead of goblin). It could also explain why they're surprised he speaks at all, because enemy goblins don't usually say anything when you roll a random encounter, they just attack you.

But the Order are never surprised that every goblin they run into speaks, and speaks common... so maybe that's a bad way of interpreting the whole "speaks common" clue.

----

MitD doesn't want to be looked at ... because the developers of the next edition of every game always want to keep the next edition secret as long as possible. They will put it on display briefly in limited ways, but they want to keep it from being too open, or too many details leaked too early. MitD's self consciousness at the circus could be Rich poking fun at how the unreleased content itself feels about being put on display before it's ready.

----

Putting it in the nice organized form of previous leading guesses...

Mitd is an Unreleased Next Edition Goblin
(or: Child of the Snarl, or: Goblin of the Snarlverse)

Pros:

Human size
Recognizable creature type
Guessable
Overpowered

Could have any spell or ability, i.e. Escape could be a new racial ability for 4th edition Goblins, or he could have a Wish ability, or anything
Strength stat is too high because the buffs haven't been properly adjusted yet
Can't be hurt by weak 3.5 characters who haven't been buffed to 4.0 rules yet

Explains the crowd's reaction at the circus

Humans see a next edition mob... horrifying, yet strangely beautiful
Goblins see their next edition buffs... unspoken "meh, looks ok"

Doesn't know his own strength because nobody has played his creature type before because he's new, unreleased content
Child-like nature reflects the age of his definition in the monster manual, as opposed to the age on his character sheet
Literate in Common because the Next Edition will allow Goblin as a playable race
Breaks the Fourth Wall and crosses the line between original OOTS and generic RPG creature types, in OOTS style
Not native to Rainforests
Eats stew
Doesn't like people looking at him: Unreleased content is kept secret and doesn't like people looking at it any more than its developers do.

Cons:

Too much Rule of Funny: These explanations for all the spells and feats is too easy since goblins don't normally have this level of strength and magic (wouldn't that cheapness fit well though?)
The SBGH wouldn't be surprised that he speaks, only that he speaks common instead of goblin (and the Order are never surprised that goblins regularly speak common)


----

LOL so this occurred to me while I was editing my guess above, and I hesitate to posit this as my official guess instead of goblin, but MAYBE... it has to be suggested as a joke at least...

Building more on the connection between Elan and MitD, IIRC Rich has said that Elan will be the central protagonist to receive the happy ending (as opposed to Roy)

What if the MitD is the unreleased next edition Elan?! No no, not the real final 4th edition Elan, but the gods' rejected proposal for how to fix Elan's class, by giving him super strength and Wish powers, a proposal that was eaten by the Snarl and spit out through a Rift to become the MitD.

It would be fitting if the last page shows them upgrading to 4th edition, since the first page showed them upgrading to 3.5. The MitD and Elan could merge into one as Elan grows into these powers, becoming super powerful, after being mocked for his ineffectiveness for the previous thousand pages.

MitD would be an empty shell then waiting for Elan's soul to become him, sort of like when Doctor Who met his next regeneration back around the 6th or 7th doctor, and then regenerated into becoming him.

MitD is Future Elan
with unreleased Next Edition class buffs

Pros:

Explains childlike behavior
Ties together numerous plot points
Most of the pros from the "next edition goblin" idea

Cons:

Elan loves performing and being watched, unlike MitD
Elan isn't known for his love of stew
Doesn't explain the SBGH's reaction
MitD has never used any of Elan's running gags, such as invisibility through nakedness, or a fourth-wall-breaking understanding of Rich's writing style

[Selene]

Well, the Next Edition part sounds plausible, but I'm not buying him being a goblin of any sort. Goblins in the Stickverse are literally cannon fodder. I can't see them as being anything that would become overpowered, even while still on the drawing board, in a move to a new edition.

And yes, we've seen orcs -- a whole island full of them who now worship Banjo's brother Giggles, god of slapstick. And half-orcs (Therkla and Thog).

[silversaraph]

On the child-like nature of MitD: Elan is an adult of his species, but that does not stop him from being child-like, well beyond a realistic level for his physical age. Elan's not a baby, he just acts like one. It's entirely possible (and likely IMO) that the MitD is an adult of his species, but he has a child-like nature.


Completely ignoring everything else you said, which was almost completely speculation on the future (and honestly, I don't think even the giant can plan a future edition out 600 + strips in advance), it's very likely that the Mitd is a child of some sort just because of the first three panels here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html).

There's quite a bit of development, but more specifically, his dad was BIG and ate a LOT. "Way more than I do". In terms of "way", considering the Mitd's scale in anything he does, the rift between him and his father is too great to be attributed to anything but life stage. Plus, over analyzing how he "Remembers his dad... sort of", it seems those memories were rather blurred, kind of how I remember my years before four. I have a vague idea of what happened, but it's so fuzzy...

I can totally imagine it being a pre-pubescent gigantic obscure monster that Redcloak and Xykon would have seen on their quests for the gates, and it explains how the big game hunters knew, too.

Also, on an unrelated note, does anyone have an idea of what the box is made out of? It can't be three inches of solid steel or something, or Redcloak wouldn't have been able to carry it (and with Mitd inside, no less), but it can't be something super flimsy or the big game hunters wouldn't have used it in the first place since they weren't trying to capture the Mitd.

Edit: if that entire post was a joke, you spent a long, long time on it.

[Ris]

Thanks for reminding me about the Orc island! Of course! duh... I don't know why I didn't remember that. /facepalm



Edit: if that entire post was a joke, you spent a long, long time on it. I was "kidding on the square." My idea that MitD is a next edition monster is a serious guess about a joke of an explanation. Seriously :smallsmile:

I think it's reasonable to assume that MitD's revelation will be a punchline, so I expect his creature type to be a big joke in itself. So I made a serious guess about a joke answer that would make sense and be funny at the same time (universally to any RPG player).

After the first hundred strips, the Giant really turned away from D&D specific stuff quite a bit (not 100%) towards more generic RPG references, and all I really see that remains very specific to D&D anymore is "saving throw" and "sneak attack" while the rest of the Ootsverse feels like an amalgam of all the many RPGs I've played. I sense the presence of more official D&D rules in effect than those two phrases, but I don't have to know those rules to get the jokes. It's enough that I've played enough RPGs in general to get it from context.

If MitD is revealed to be a Dread Linnorm or a Dream Larva, as reasonable as those guesses sound from their descriptions, those aren't memorable enough, and haven't been in any other RPGs I've ever played ... I wouldn't get the joke or even recognize what those are, and I don't think the Giant would let me down like that, knowing that's too obscure. For 695 strips, I've gotten every joke, with only a very minor memory of D&D rules and content, and an otherwise broad exposure to many RPGs in general. I have to believe the MitD has to be known to that kind of audience (i.e. me :smallwink:).


Well, the Next Edition part sounds plausible, but I'm not buying him being a goblin of any sort. Goblins in the Stickverse are literally cannon fodder. I can't see them as being anything that would become overpowered, even while still on the drawing board, in a move to a new edition.While I think it should be something fairly obvious/recognizable, I agree there's no real evidence to suggest "goblin" specifically.

It seems that very good points have been made about his stats having to be so high, that there don't seem to be any creatures that powerful in the monster manual, that could also be small enough, or have such a low INT score, and so forth. I feel like there should be a simple explanation for that, like the proposed idea that he comes from another game, such as FF, where the hit points are on a different scale, but it seems more reasonable to draw from the next edition The Snarl.


honestly, I don't think even the giant can plan a future edition out 600 + strips in advanceYeah that's a good point, and I hesitated on how to word that... "next edition" was probably a poor choice of words... What I meant was...

One of the gods said "hey guys, how about we take a something, and shrink him to human size, and give him super strength and a Wish ability... now look, I know that sounds overpowered, so we force him to have a really low intelligence so he's easy to fool and manipulate, and he's gotta sleep after he uses these powers. And he has to eat a lot too, mostly stew, obviously, like most somethings. What do you think?"

But one of the other gods replied on their forum "ZOMG noes that wud be OP u suck", and a snarling fight ensued, and the proposed buff to somethings fell through the rift as a house rule that became the MitD.

I'm not thinking of that like a "planned" next edition monster, so much as a mockery of the general idea of how much more powerful everything always gets in the next edition, and how much of the Snarl revolves around proposing overpowered ideas. Making that joke doesn't require planning out the whole contents of the next edition. It's enough to know there will always be a next edition, and that the next edition will always come with power-ups, and/or the related idea that much of the Snarl is around proposed ideas that are too powerful, like the MitD.

----

As for which somethings, you're probably right that he's not a goblin, but as I said, I think he should be a recognizable creature type.

The stew clue suggests a humanoid type to me, because it just seems that encounters with goblins, orcs, trolls, or ogres are usually described with them eating stew at their camp, and they usually want to put you in it.

The "not eating children" clue cancels out a Witch, as in Hansel and Gretel being stewed, but not a Troll, as in Bilbo and the dwarves being stewed.

The fact that he's in the darkness suggests a Troll too because they turn to stone in the light (in some fantasy realms but not others)

Trolls are also very large (in some fantasy realms) and known for their strength.

----

Maybe not a troll ... /shrug... I'm just brainstorming and throwing around ideas. I really got into the next edition monster idea so I put detail into it. I have just a couple more unrelated brainstorming efforts trying to think outside the box, or outside the fourth wall as the case may be

----

The MitD isn't just overpowered, he's arbitrarily overpowered. Not even he knows his own powers, he's just mega powerful, and yet not the end boss of the campaign.

That puts him out of place because of his level of power.

It seems unlikely he could be from another game, like FF or WoW, because that would be out of cannon IMO.

Perhaps he's a player? seems to "erfworld"

That pretty much just leaves the Snarlverse, whatever that is.

----

The "Escape" spell... suppose this is not a spell or racial/class ability... suppose this represents a random encounter's uncanny ability to escape you for no apparent reason sometimes. In this case, MitD has mysteriously bestowed this power on someone else.

----

The SBGH's reaction ...

I think you have to take it as partially breaking the fourth wall. The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters represent players who want to farm mobs for XP and loot. They perceive MitD as a random encounter, and a random encounter doesn't usually say hello... they might be saying something you don't understand in their native language, as you stumble across their camp, but for them to actually talk... to you... in common... is very unusual.

The SBGH are the hack and slash players who just want to kill monsters instead of roleplaying a story. If they were WoW players they might have said "WTH is a quest NPC doing here talking to me, when I only came here to farm mobs?" and their DM would say, look this is D&D, not WoW, and we're gonna make a story here, OK? just go with me on this...

So the hunter says "I didn't expect to see one of those here" because it's a humanoid monster in a rainforest, typically inhabited by beasts.

----

A thought about MitD's father ... he was probably from the previous edition, like Haley's father. So that could be used to explain the size reduction, instead of an extra-dimensional space effect like a bag of holding around the magical darkness, for the same kind of clown car trope.

[Mystic Muse]

it can't be a dream larva anyway otherwise anybody who saw it (or at least most) would have died on sight. it's a DC 43 Will check I believe to not die instantly

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My idea that MitD is a next edition monster is a serious guess about a joke of an explanation. Seriously :smallsmile:

Rich's words:
"I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is"
and
"something someone else made up"

Those two sections contradict your entire explanation. He knows exactly what MitD is. Thus, he cannot be some half-guess immaterial abstract concept as a "future edition" creature. And he uses past tense when talking about its creation.


I think it's reasonable to assume that MitD's revelation will be a punchline, so I expect his creature type to be a big joke in itself. So I made a serious guess about a joke answer that would make sense and be funny at the same time (universally to any RPG player).

I fail to see why that would be the case. MitD has now had way too much character development and pathos to be a punchline reveal. The whole point of the watchtower section was to make MitD a serious contender, and so was his encounter with Haley and Belkar. He remains a powerful source of humour, but he cannot be a joke in and of itself.


it can't be a dream larva anyway otherwise anybody who saw it (or at least most) would have died on sight. it's a DC 43 Will check I believe to not die instantly

We know that. Thus, from the start it was suggested he is a "younger" version were Rich bends the rules to have a less destructive, more puking effect, which also fits nicely with MitD's personality.

Grey Wolf

[Selene]

Thanks for reminding me about the Orc island! Of course! duh... I don't know why I didn't remember that. /facepalm

Welcome.


While I think it should be something fairly obvious/recognizable, I agree there's no real evidence to suggest "goblin" specifically.

See, now I don't think he's going to be something obvious/recognizable/universal etc., because if he was, we would have figured it out already. I'm think obscure-ish, but understandable.


The fact that he's in the darkness suggests a Troll too because they turn to stone in the light (in some fantasy realms but not others)

Which contradicts all his requests to leave the darkness.


A thought about MitD's father ... he was probably from the previous edition, like Haley's father. So that could be used to explain the size reduction, instead of an extra-dimensional space effect like a bag of holding around the magical darkness, for the same kind of clown car trope.

The darkness hasn't always been magical. He was just sitting in a shady area in the rainforest. It just happened to be dark in the box the Big Game Hunters used to catch him and at the circus. Plus he went out on stage into the light at the circus.

The rest of the ideas in your post seem way too meta to me, even for OotS. Sorry.

[Somewhere]

Re: Upper bound on MitD's CR
Xykon's at least in the upper 20's because he has a few epic feats at least. Don't know if an upper bound's been placed on Xykon himself.

[Forbiddenwar]

Just a joke thought. MitD is a DMPC. Think of it, all powerful, unstoppable, breaks all the rules of CR and LA. I know, it bends, if not flat out breaks Section 1A. Unless it is a DMPC that appeared in a module or other famous D&D game,(anyone listen to PennyArcade's D&D podcast games?) or even one that appeared in a game where rich was a Player.

[Acero]

I'm just catching up on the discussion here, and I missed the first thread, so thank you SO much for the organized OP and all the new research and comic links that followed.

I have several random comments and observations to add, ending with my guess... This is a very long post because I've had 695 strips, and this whole thread above, and the research from its predecessor thread, to build on, and subsequently a lot to say... and lo in days to come when your children come to the smoking ruin that was once this thread... I can cast "sleep" just like V :smalltongue:

----

I don't believe the MitD is a "named mob". He can't be any uniquely recognized character with a name like Mickey Mouse or Chuck Norris or Godzilla, not simply for legal reasons, but because he's a unique OOTS character, with his own name: The Monster in the Darkness. His species creature type can be guessed, but not his name.

Maybe he's a Radioactive T-Rex, but he can't be Godzilla. Maybe he's a giant moth, but he can't be Mothra. Maybe a dragon, but not Smaug. etc.

----

On the child-like nature of MitD: Elan is an adult of his species, but that does not stop him from being child-like, well beyond a realistic level for his physical age. Elan's not a baby, he just acts like one. It's entirely possible (and likely IMO) that the MitD is an adult of his species, but he has a child-like nature.

----

I didn't see any commentary on MitD's alignment. Are there any leading guesses on that? He hangs out with Xykon and Redcloak, but he's a minion that they keep in a cage, so not necessarily lawful evil like they are. He's considered a monster (creature type), but that doesn't automatically grant him an evil alignment. O-Chul calls him a good man. He has a good sense of loyalty, suggesting a good alignment, but he doesn't seem to act like a Lawful character, more like a Neutral or Chaotic. Possibly Neutral/Good? Neutral/Neutral?

----

The idea of guessing MitD's creature type based on his stats and feats strikes me like using O-Chul's list of spells and feats to guess that Xykon is a Lich. Is that the only possible strategy? You could guess that he's a sorcerer (class) of a certain level (what, 20ish?) and get some clues that he's undead, but could it tell you he's a Lich specifically?

Those are all valuable clues, but I don't think Rich's intent is for the MitD's creature type to be guessed only by those who study arcane tomes of monster manuals.

In OOTS style it should be something that would be obvious to any RPG player, whether you play more classic D&D or left that behind for WoW (like I did), and I've never heard of a Snorlax, so that suggestion, as close of a guess as it sounds from the description, strikes me as outside the "super cannon" of D&Dish RPGish lore that OOTS draws from, or its too specific. I don't think it could be a Snorlax any more than it could be a Tauren because that's too specific to one particular game, instead of generic enough to be in any and all RPGs.

The MitD's creature type should be staring us in the face, not buried at the back of a supplement to the first edition rules. Something obvious enough and generic enough that it would be in any fantasy RPG. Something like an Orc.

----

Have there even been any Orcs in OOTS? We see lots and lots of Goblins, but where are the Orcs?

----

Snarl Jr.... no, I agree, for good reasons pointed out above... however...

Child of the Snarl ... originating out of the Snarl ... is a line of thinking I believe still has merit.

MitD is central to the story, and his revelation will be a climactic moment. As such, what he is must be related to the central plot of the Snarl and the Gates.

The end of the most recent book shows us a world within a world behind the snarl. The revelation of what is that world will also be a central plot point. (and Rich speaks to it in the DStP commentary)

I'm starting to think that MitD is from that other world. That wouldn't make him a baby Snarl (creature type) but that would still make him a metaphorical child of the Snarl.

----

And what is that other world? It's the Snarlverse.
(this is my guess, I have nothing to back it up except the following reasoning)

The only word I can think of to describe it is video-gamey: the Snarlverse is the Ootsverse's PTR of unreleased content from the next edition.

Consider what the Snarl is: the endless argument over "nerf this and buff that" that results in patches to the rules to make newer versions of AD&D 3.5 and 4.0.

In every session of D&D that I ever played with dice and paper ("table-top" is a bad name for it because my group sat on the floor a lot and rolled on our books instead of the carpet :smallwink:) it was required in each 8-hour session every sunday that we had to have at least one snarling fight over the rules, aka The Snarl, and our D&D-verse had many Rifts from the official rules (house rules) where the Snarl had torn it apart, just like in OOTS.

I believe the Snarl and the Rifts are Rich's nod to that ever-present fight over the rules (and indeed, IMO the very existence of RPGs with thick rulebooks are a result of that same fight breaking out between me and my 7 year old friends in the backyard imagination game that always broke into a fight over "hey, you can't do that!". too bad writing a thick rulebook didn't stop our run-away imaginations from creating the Snarl anyway)

That suggests that the newer world inside the Snarl, the Snarlverse, is the next edition rules as they are still being formed out of that argument.

The very first episode 1 of OOTS shows the Order being upgraded to the 3.5 rules. The makers of the gates to contain the snarl had access to older edition monsters. Haley's father was a first edition Thief (second edition? either way, an earlier edition). This shows a flow of the rules patches through the Ootsverse as the Snarlverse grows out from inside the world to become the next edition of the Ootsverse.

The idea that epic long-played PCs from the previous campaign retired to set up powerful gates to defend these Rifts is the perfect way to represent the house rules, rule alterations, or Rule of Plot thing your DM would do for your group's characters when you decide to retire that party and reroll new characters to form The Order of the Stick, and start a whole new campaign with low level characters, under the next edition rules, so you can level up again and not fight exclusively epic level monsters.

----

If MitD is from that other world, then it means he's a newer edition monster.

At the circus, humans of the Ootsverse behold him as both terrifying and beautiful. As a WoW player looking at unreleased patch notes, I view the new monsters in the same way: both terrifying and beautiful, so powerful, and yet so juicy.

The humans are looking at a new mob... so hideous, and yet strangely beautiful.

The goblins in the audience react as if they could be looking at the buffs they can expect in the next patch. They have a nonplussed attitude, with an unsaid "Meh, that looks OK."

Perhaps that makes him a 4th edition goblin.

But it was pointed out above that 4th edition wasn't released yet by the earliest date when Rich declared the MitD was a guessable creature type, and as well as for legal reasons, he can't be specifically a WotC 4th edition AD&D Goblin, from page N of the Monster Manual, Copyright (C) 2004. (or whatever)

Plus Rich would have no way of knowing whether Goblins got a big buff in 4th edition D&D. To say he's a 4th edition goblin is too specific...

----

So I believe he is a Prototype Next Edition Goblin, an outcropping of the Snarl, who fell through a Rift from the Snarlverse into the Ootsverse before his list of feats and stats had been completely finalized, while he was still being debated and play tested.

One of the gods suggested a buff to goblins that was eaten by the Snarl and spit out a rift to become the MitD.

That leaves him strongly overpowered, without knowing his own strength, and very immature, with a narrow character definition due to his incompleteness.

But he's still a goblin: a guessable, recognizable, deceptively obvious, any-RPG creature type.

----

He's a baby in the sense that his definition in the monster manual is as immature as his character. His page in the monster manual is a young baby, but his character sheet says he's an adult. So he acts like a child in OOTS style humor.

----

He's overpowered because everyone in the next edition will be overpowered compared to the current one, no matter which RPG you're talking about, and to make it worse, he's even more overpowered because he's from the PTR... OK it's not WoW, so PTR is the wrong word, but he was still being play-tested, he's like a house rule, or a proposed buff to Goblins, that fell through the Rift, so he's not even remotely fair in the game balance, especially vs. 3.5 PCs that don't have their 4.0 buffs yet.

The clues in his powers could easily be, not the specific powers themselves, but the overall idea that he's dramatically overpowered. There is ample evidence that's he's overpowered, if you look past the individual abilities he has used, and see the forest for the trees. The individual powers that are easy to focus on as clues and ask "what has X STR value? and >= 3 INT? and can cast Escape? (or whatever spell that was)" and so on could be red herrings in front of the bigger idea that he's obviously very overpowered to be in the same game with characters like the Order and Xykon.

Don't forget that Ootsverse is a game world, and on the question of MitD's challenge rating, a minion can't be harder than the end-boss, so Xykon's CR is an upper bound for MitD, because the Order will have to pass through MitD to get to Xykon eventually. There's evidence described above with good reasoning that MitD's CR should be >= 27 (to compare with the silver dragon), but isn't Xykon's CR less than that? I haven't read any of the Xykon's level guessing threads recently, but I vaguely recall the leading theory is that he's about level 20, which makes his CR 20, right? The specific number doesn't matter for my reasoning here as long as Xykon is considered less powerful than the silver dragon.

The loophole for this would be that in the next edition rules, MitD has a very low CR (vs. 4.0 PCs), but being from the next edition, his (low) CR is out of scale for the current rule set, so Xykon gets to control him as a minion on a technicality, because on paper it says his CR is only 3 or something (vs. PCs from 4.0)

----

Redcloak knows what MitD is because he understands the nature of the Snarl. He can recognize the future in MitD and from that alone knows the MitD could kill them all. (Note that Redcloak also wants Goblins to be equally respected to PCs, maybe as a playable race, and I think that's also significant in all this)

Xykon also knows, and says (lazy misquoting) "nothing is as scary in that tower as you are, or at least as you SHOULD be," because Xykon is the type of arch villain who commands legions of goblins, and so of course he believes the next edition goblin should be more powerful, no matter how overpowered the MitD already is. Whether he's a Goblin or something else, to Xykon, he's a Next Edition Minion.

MitD doesn't know what he is because he's incomplete.

----

MitD's father was as big, maybe bigger... I'm thinking his father was another unreleased version of a next edition goblin within the Snarl, even bigger and more overpowered than the MitD, before they nerfed him (but not enough yet).

----

Diet, and love for Stew... his incomplete definition in the unreleased next edition monster manual says his creature type eats stew... a common humanoid monster definition kind of thing to say IMO especially for something like a goblin, orc, troll, or ogre. But the gods in the Snarl didn't get past that yet, since they're still arguing over his stats and powers, so as a Snarlverse creature type which has not yet been flushed out completely into a full Ootsverse creature type, he isn't motivated to do other things that haven't been defined for him yet. He just loves to eat lots of stew.

That incompleteness makes his character narrow (in such a deep and wonderful way) and I could totally see Rich poking fun at how humanoid monster types like that are always eating stew.

----

He speaks, and he speaks common... He speaks common because he's going to be a playable race in the next edition... this explains why the SBGH are surprised he speaks common (instead of goblin). It could also explain why they're surprised he speaks at all, because enemy goblins don't usually say anything when you roll a random encounter, they just attack you.

But the Order are never surprised that every goblin they run into speaks, and speaks common... so maybe that's a bad way of interpreting the whole "speaks common" clue.

----

MitD doesn't want to be looked at ... because the developers of the next edition of every game always want to keep the next edition secret as long as possible. They will put it on display briefly in limited ways, but they want to keep it from being too open, or too many details leaked too early. MitD's self consciousness at the circus could be Rich poking fun at how the unreleased content itself feels about being put on display before it's ready.

----

Putting it in the nice organized form of previous leading guesses...

Mitd is an Unreleased Next Edition Goblin
(or: Child of the Snarl, or: Goblin of the Snarlverse)

Pros:

Human size
Recognizable creature type
Guessable
Overpowered

Could have any spell or ability, i.e. Escape could be a new racial ability for 4th edition Goblins, or he could have a Wish ability, or anything
Strength stat is too high because the buffs haven't been properly adjusted yet
Can't be hurt by weak 3.5 characters who haven't been buffed to 4.0 rules yet

Explains the crowd's reaction at the circus

Humans see a next edition mob... horrifying, yet strangely beautiful
Goblins see their next edition buffs... unspoken "meh, looks ok"

Doesn't know his own strength because nobody has played his creature type before because he's new, unreleased content
Child-like nature reflects the age of his definition in the monster manual, as opposed to the age on his character sheet
Literate in Common because the Next Edition will allow Goblin as a playable race
Breaks the Fourth Wall and crosses the line between original OOTS and generic RPG creature types, in OOTS style
Not native to Rainforests
Eats stew
Doesn't like people looking at him: Unreleased content is kept secret and doesn't like people looking at it any more than its developers do.

Cons:

Too much Rule of Funny: These explanations for all the spells and feats is too easy since goblins don't normally have this level of strength and magic (wouldn't that cheapness fit well though?)
The SBGH wouldn't be surprised that he speaks, only that he speaks common instead of goblin (and the Order are never surprised that goblins regularly speak common)


----

LOL so this occurred to me while I was editing my guess above, and I hesitate to posit this as my official guess instead of goblin, but MAYBE... it has to be suggested as a joke at least...

Building more on the connection between Elan and MitD, IIRC Rich has said that Elan will be the central protagonist to receive the happy ending (as opposed to Roy)

What if the MitD is the unreleased next edition Elan?! No no, not the real final 4th edition Elan, but the gods' rejected proposal for how to fix Elan's class, by giving him super strength and Wish powers, a proposal that was eaten by the Snarl and spit out through a Rift to become the MitD.

It would be fitting if the last page shows them upgrading to 4th edition, since the first page showed them upgrading to 3.5. The MitD and Elan could merge into one as Elan grows into these powers, becoming super powerful, after being mocked for his ineffectiveness for the previous thousand pages.

MitD would be an empty shell then waiting for Elan's soul to become him, sort of like when Doctor Who met his next regeneration back around the 6th or 7th doctor, and then regenerated into becoming him.

MitD is Future Elan
with unreleased Next Edition class buffs

Pros:

Explains childlike behavior
Ties together numerous plot points
Most of the pros from the "next edition goblin" idea

Cons:

Elan loves performing and being watched, unlike MitD
Elan isn't known for his love of stew
Doesn't explain the SBGH's reaction
MitD has never used any of Elan's running gags, such as invisibility through nakedness, or a fourth-wall-breaking understanding of Rich's writing style


sorry to burst your bubble, but it cant be a goblin
other goblins were laughing at him in a cage

[Kish]

:smallannoyed: Quoting the whole long post to add two lines?

[lothos]

I've only quotes part of Ris' post as it was quite long. I'll try to make sure I don't quote anything out of context:


(snip)
I didn't see any commentary on MitD's alignment. Are there any leading guesses on that? He hangs out with Xykon and Redcloak, but he's a minion that they keep in a cage, so not necessarily lawful evil like they are. He's considered a monster (creature type), but that doesn't automatically grant him an evil alignment. O-Chul calls him a good man. He has a good sense of loyalty, suggesting a good alignment, but he doesn't seem to act like a Lawful character, more like a Neutral or Chaotic. Possibly Neutral/Good? Neutral/Neutral?

There was some discussion in the last thread about it, specifically around the idea that MitD is being "redeemed" by O'Chul after being "corrupted" by Xykon and Redcloak. I my opinion, a true neutral or chaotic neutral alignment fits best with this. However I don't think we can rule out ANY alignment for his species. Even a monster species that is "always" a certain alignment is allowed to have one or two exceptional individuals who have a differing alignment. There is a section in the 3.5 monster manual that explains "always" and "usually" in terms of their use describing D&D alignments. It's not the strict dictionary definition of always.

I do think though that it tends to suggest that he isn't certain types of creatures that are "always" extremely good. Celstials, especially a Solar comes to mind. If he was (say) a Solar, while he would have a high CR and have Wish, aside from any other concerns, it doesn't fit well with him being a sympathetic character if he rejects his celestial alignment and naively becomes indifferent to very evil acts going on around him. It also lessens the achievement of O'Chul redeeming him... if that is what O'Chul achieved.



The idea of guessing MitD's creature type based on his stats and feats strikes me like using O-Chul's list of spells and feats to guess that Xykon is a Lich. Is that the only possible strategy? You could guess that he's a sorcerer (class) of a certain level (what, 20ish?) and get some clues that he's undead, but could it tell you he's a Lich specifically?

Certainly when I spent some time looking through monster manuals I did look for creatures with sorcerer ability because cleric, druid and wizard were all pretty much impossible. Aside from the fact that he can't create undead, he really doesn't seem to behave like a creature should if it had either 19 wisdom (cleric / druid) or 19 Intelligence (Wizard), which would be necessary to cast either Miracle or Wish. Also, it's hard to believe he could be unaware of his powers if he spends an hour every day studying arcane writings from a spell book. Sorcerer was the only class ability that seemed to fit with being able to cast wish, to enable the "escape" ability. This might not be an accurate assumption, but in order to narrow my search, I chose to accept the idea that he either had 18+ levels of Sorcerer, or he had wish as a spell like ability. This is part of why I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Dread Linnorm and Prismatic Dragon.

Unlike Xykon who had his class levels as a human and became a lich, I'm assuming that MitD has class levels in Sorcerer as a part of his species abilities. Now it's possible that MitD is a goblin who has somehow gained 18+ levels of sorcerer and then had his memory wiped to forget the experiences, but not loose the XP and class levels..... I just don't think that's really in the spirit of Rich saying "it is possible to guess" what MitD is. Again, that may not be valid... but it's an assumption I'm personally going with for now.


Those are all valuable clues, but I don't think Rich's intent is for the MitD's creature type to be guessed only by those who study arcane tomes of monster manuals.

This bothered me too. The Dread Linnorm is pretty obscure. The prismatic Dragon perhaps a little less so, because dragons generally are iconic, arguably the most iconic monsters in dungeons and dragons.

However if you believe that MitD is a monster that's extremely well known to all D&D players, then the obvious question is, why are we having this debate ? Assuming Rich hasn't deliberately mislead us in a really "unfair" way, if it were an "obvious" or "iconic" monster, we would most likely have ended this thread months ago.

Rich knows that some of his audience are D&D geeks. I've never actually played 3rd or 3.5 edition, but I am geeky enough to borrow the source books off a friend and read through all the CR 20+ monsters I can find. Now I agree that a LOT of people who read the comic would not be motivated to do that. Perhaps they have real lives or something :-) However not every joke and every reference in OOTS is designed to be "layman friendly". The identity of MitD might well be something really obsure.... or of course there is the other theory that it's not a D&D monster at all and it's something from popular culture. The "Snorlax" from Pokemon being a good example.



In OOTS style it should be something that would be obvious to any RPG player, whether you play more classic D&D or left that behind for WoW (like I did), and I've never heard of a Snorlax, so that suggestion, as close of a guess as it sounds from the description, strikes me as outside the "super cannon" of D&Dish RPGish lore that OOTS draws from, or its too specific. I don't think it could be a Snorlax any more than it could be a Tauren because that's too specific to one particular game, instead of generic enough to be in any and all RPGs.

Yes, I'd never heard of Snorlax either. I have no interest in pokemon myself (not trying to say it's not a good thing, just not personally for me). But I know Rich has parodied it a few times, so I went and looked it up in Wikipedia when it was suggested. I'd be really disappointed personally if he is Snorlax, but you can't argue with the evidence.



The MitD's creature type should be staring us in the face, not buried at the back of a supplement to the first edition rules. Something obvious enough and generic enough that it would be in any fantasy RPG. Something like an Orc.

Maybe..... but I think this argument is based on the way you imagine that Rich is trying to make guessing MitD easily accessible to ALL his audiance. He might be trying to do that, but I don't think that is the case. There is a huge range of the level of knowledge of D&D across Rich's audiance. There are people in the gaming part of the forum who know the rules for every edition inside and out, they know a LOT more than I do. I'm not certain it's possible to have all parts of OOTS appeal to all levels of gamer at once. I think there are jokes and references in there to appeal to everyone and then a few bits that you really have to have some gaming knowledge to appreciate. This *might* be one of those.


(snip)
Child of the Snarl ... originating out of the Snarl ... is a line of thinking I believe still has merit.

MitD is central to the story, and his revelation will be a climactic moment. As such, what he is must be related to the central plot of the Snarl and the Gates.


I just can't take a snarl / snarl jr / avatar of the snarl / snarlella / etc theory really seriously. I mean there is a LOT of thematic merit to it. That's probably why it's been proposes so many times.

The big problem as we keep coming back to are Rich's words in War and Xps. I won't re-quote them here, because Grey Wolf posted them neatly at the start of this new thread.

So sorry, I just don't give this serious consideration. It's fun, but it's almost certainly wrong.



The end of the most recent book shows us a world within a world behind the snarl. The revelation of what is that world will also be a central plot point. (and Rich speaks to it in the DStP commentary)


I don't have DStp yet, I look forward to reading this !



I'm starting to think that MitD is from that other world. That wouldn't make him a baby Snarl (creature type) but that would still make him a metaphorical child of the Snarl.


Whether he is a metaphorical child or a literal child, I'd suggest that either of those would be something Rich has made up, since he made up the snarl. Therefore I don't think this can be correct.



I believe the Snarl and the Rifts are Rich's nod to that ever-present fight over the rules (and indeed, IMO the very existence of RPGs with thick rulebooks are a result of that same fight breaking out between me and my 7 year old friends in the backyard imagination game that always broke into a fight over "hey, you can't do that!". too bad writing a thick rulebook didn't stop our run-away imaginations from creating the Snarl anyway)

Rich actually did say something like this in one of the commentaries. I think it might have been in No Cure for the Paladin Blues. It's whichever book contains the crayons of time sequence. The thing is, I don't think that this really have any bearing on the identity of MitD.



The very first episode 1 of OOTS shows the Order being upgraded to the 3.5 rules. The makers of the gates to contain the snarl had access to older edition monsters. Haley's father was a first edition Thief (second edition? either way, an earlier edition).

First Edition. I played those a few times :-)


If MitD is from that other world, then it means he's a newer edition monster.

I think another poster has covered this and you did address it yourself later in your post, but Rich says he has known what MitD is since about strip 100. Hence in the summary at the start of this thread it's believed that MitD can't be a monster that's been created after around 2004.

I would suggest that if there is a monster that's JUST in 4th edition D&D, MitD can't be that monster. This of course assumes Rich didn't have a preview version of 4th Edition several years in advance. I think Rich said earlier this year in the news page that he didn't get to see 4th edition until it was published.

You suggest that he could be a prototype..... I guess that could maybe fit. Are you suggesting he is the concept of being a prototype ? Dosn't really seem to fit to me, but I can't prove it wrong.



He's a baby in the sense that his definition in the monster manual is as immature as his character. His page in the monster manual is a young baby, but his character sheet says he's an adult. So he acts like a child in OOTS style humor.


Interesting idea. Not sure I'm on board, but creative idea nonetheless.




He's overpowered because everyone in the next edition will be overpowered compared to the current one, no matter which RPG you're talking about, and to make it worse, he's even more overpowered because he's from the PTR... OK it's not WoW, so PTR is the wrong word, but he was still being play-tested, he's like a house rule, or a proposed buff to Goblins, that fell through the Rift, so he's not even remotely fair in the game balance, especially vs. 3.5 PCs that don't have their 4.0 buffs yet.



I just don't see Rich creating this several years ahead of 4th edition. I mean I know the guy plans ahead a LOT and he is a big fan of foreshadowing, but I think this is unlikely. Again though, I can't prove you wrong, it's possible.



Don't forget that Ootsverse is a game world, and on the question of MitD's challenge rating, a minion can't be harder than the end-boss, so Xykon's CR is an upper bound for MitD, because the Order will have to pass through MitD to get to Xykon eventually. There's evidence described above with good reasoning that MitD's CR should be >= 27 (to compare with the silver dragon), but isn't Xykon's CR less than that? I haven't read any of the Xykon's level guessing threads recently, but I vaguely recall the leading theory is that he's about level 20, which makes his CR 20, right? The specific number doesn't matter for my reasoning here as long as Xykon is considered less powerful than the silver dragon.


We don't really know what level Xykon is, but I've heard theories it's 26+. He must have epic spellcasting. I forget the specifics, but there were other epic feats he had that meant he needed to have 4 epic feats in total. A Sorcerer would get an epic feat at 21st level, then another (class based) at 23, then another at 24 and a 4th epic feat at level 26. I'm not on firm ground here as I can't remember the argument, but it was somewhere in a class and level geekery thread. I must confess that when I read it, I didn't know much about 3.5 edition D&D and I might have misunderstood some of it.

Even if we assume Xykon is only level 21 (must be as Roy says in strip 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)). It's possible that he has a monster in his thrall who is a higher CR than his level.

However I have spent some time thinking about this and it does make me wonder if a creature who has different age categories might make sense here. This leads me back to Prismatic Dragon of course.

My reasoning is that MitD is currently in a young age category and at the minute has a lower CR than Xykon. However Xykon and Redcloak recognise the potential of MitD to eventually become more powerful. This fits well with any creature that has different age categories with stats posted for each of the ages, not just dragons.

(considerable snip)



MitD would be an empty shell then waiting for Elan's soul to become him, sort of like when Doctor Who met his next regeneration back around the 6th or 7th doctor, and then regenerated into becoming him.

You are referring to part 4 of the serial "logopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logopolis)" where the entity called "The Watcher" merges with the 4th Doctor (Tom Baker) during his regeneration in to the 5th Doctor (Peter Davidson). The watcher was a sort of "Ghost in advance" of the 5th Doctors existence.

I'd never considered MitD might be a time lord ! :-)

Ok, but I seriously don't think Elan is some kind of future echo of MitD or vice-versa. It's a very clever idea, but I don't buy it.

Interesting ideas all the way though and a great post. I'm not sure I agree with much of it, but it's made me think of things I'd never considered before, so I really appreciate that.

Cheers.

[Maurice]

I still think it might be one of these: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061

Taking the outline's points, in order:

1a -Date) Pass. Created in 1990 (published in Dungeon Magazine).
1a -Speech) Pass. Typically intelligent enough to be able to communicate, but of too alien a mindset to be understood. If this one is slightly less alien than most, it could communicate, but would seem odd and unnatural, which it does.
1a -Location) Pass. Typically only found on material plane as eggs or juveniles, returning to home plane after they reach adulthood. As such, finding one anywhere in the MP would be unusual, and even juveniles are scarce.
1a -Crowd reactions) Push. Very strange appearance (basically a giant space clam with tentacles that shoot fire). Not really horrible, as such, but since it's basically built out of phallic symbols, crowd responses might be plausible if they've got dirty minds.
1a -Redcloak) Pass. CR 18, definitely a tough hombre. Their existence is documented, so Redcloak could plausibly have read about them, but they're unusual enough that a man-on-the-street might not.
1b - Legal) Push. Would be fair use, so would need to be presented as a joke, which is consistent with the portrayal so far.

2a -Age) Push. The description doesn't really say how long they live, though as a gargantuan extraplanar, "long" is probably a safe bet. Their rate of growth is determined by the amount of energy they ingest, and their duration in the material plane is determined by their physical maturity so if the MITD was kept fairly hungry, it could plausibly have been here for as long as needed.
2a -Appearance) Pass. See 1a -Crowd reactions.
2a -Body) Pass. Has a physical body.
2a -Diet) Pass, with flying colors. Draknors are always hungry, constantly eating, and will eat nearly anything. Plus, they derive energy from the heat of their food rather than its nutritional content, and on several occasions the MITD expresses a preference for hot foods or a dislike for cold ones.
2a -Eyes) Push. Has numerous eyestalks, but might only be projecting two out of the shadow at any given time.
2a -Gender) Pass. They lay eggs, and as such presumably come in male and female varieties.
2a -Limbs) Pass. Has limbs (i.e. tentacles and claws). Would leave odd, hard-to-identify tracks from tentacles that were either dragged along the ground or thrust up through it.
2a -Maturity) Pass. All draknors in the MP are juveniles, explaining its immaturity.
2a -Size) Weak push. Draknors are immense (and immobile), but the bulk of their bodies are underground. It could be pushing tentacles and eyestalks up through the ground from some distance away, and using those to hold the umbrella and "look" out from under it.
2a -Sleep) Push, unknown. The description doesn't say whether or not they sleep.

2b -Attack) Pass. Has 35 strength and the "Awesome Blow" feat, so it's definitely capable of hitting opponents hard and knocking them through the air.
2b -Defense) Pass. Has epic damage reduction.
2b -Earth Cracking) Pass. Has the ability to project an Earthquake Strike from the ends of its tentacles, possibly explaining the ground's collapse in #477.
2b -O'Chul's Escape) Fail. Can't cast spells, has no "Wish" ability or anything like it. Though to be fair, we don't explicitly know that the escape was caused by the MITD, or that it doesn't have some magical item with the necessary abilities.
2b -Psionics) Pass. Not psionic.
2b -Rain) Fail. As per 2b -O'Chul's Escape.
2b -Raising Undead) Pass. Has no ability to raise undead, but does have a physical body that could presumably be raised.
2b -Speech) Pass. Intelligent enough to speak, but generally do not do so.
2b -Shout) Fail. Has no shouting-related ability, and no Frightful Presence. Maybe just really angry in that panel?

2c -Categories). Pass. Not a construct, deity, elemental, ooze, plant, or undead.
2c -Environment). Pass. Would be rare to find anywhere, including a rain forest.
2c -Family). Pass. As a juvenile, it would be smaller and less "hungry" than its parents.
2c -Knowledge of MITD). Pass. Pretty obscure - rare in-world, and I'd certainly never heard of it before I started investigating possibilities.
2c -Species). Pass. Part of a known species.

[Somewhere]

Immunity to mind-affecting effects is listed in special qualities for it, though

[Kish]

The big one for me is that it doesn't at all fit being able to teleport O-Chul and Vaarsuvius away. If it doesn't explain that, I'd throw it out.

[Moogleking]

The big one for me is that it doesn't at all fit being able to teleport O-Chul and Vaarsuvius away. If it doesn't explain that, I'd throw it out.

This and the can't speak common should be the big ones IMO.

[Forbiddenwar]

2a -Size) Weak push. Draknors are immense (and immobile), but the bulk of their bodies are underground. It could be pushing tentacles and eyestalks up through the ground from some distance away, and using those to hold the umbrella and "look" out from under it.

IMO, epic fail. since we've seen MitD on the upper stories of tall buildings, far far away from the ground. And lifted off of the ground. and fly.

[Shale]

This and the can't speak common should be the big ones IMO.

Common shouldn't be a problem - Draknors are intelligent, they just don't talk for their own reasons. Either they don't think like humans and so can't speak their languages (which being raised by humanoids could fix) or they just don't care to (which being raised by humanoids could fix). The other dealbreakers still apply.

[TVTMaster]

Just got SoD for Christmas, and I noticed something interesting about the MitD that doesn't appear to have been noted in the thread's summary.

When Redcloak is making off with the MitD's circus car (which, by the way, nullifies the Draknor thing if the bulk of their immense bodies are underground), MitD attempts to hook a bucket of stew with an unknown implement. It's possible he's using a stick or something that was inside his cage, but if not, what is this appendage? It's too thick to be a generic OotS stick arm, but it's like a weird little cylinder thing which he can manipulate.

Similarly, after Xykon's victory over Dorukan, the MitD offers Redcloak a plate of tacos during his little fiesta thing with the cockroaches. How is he holding this? There are little bars in the cage window, through which he is somehow able to hold out a large platter. So, then, he's either somehow telekinetic, or his limbs are thin enough to fit through the bars of his cage- an issue also present in his attempted grabbing of the stew.

So one thing the front page hasn't mentioned is that whatever appendage or ability to manipulate objects the MitD has, it can fit through or manipulate outside of the bars of a small window. I'm not sure how significant this is, but hopefully it can fan the candle flame a bit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just got SoD for Christmas, and I noticed something interesting about the MitD that doesn't appear to have been noted in the thread's summary.

When Redcloak is making off with the MitD's circus car (which, by the way, nullifies the Draknor thing if the bulk of their immense bodies are underground), MitD attempts to hook a bucket of stew with an unknown implement. It's possible he's using a stick or something that was inside his cage, but if not, what is this appendage? It's too thick to be a generic OotS stick arm, but it's like a weird little cylinder thing which he can manipulate.

Similarly, after Xykon's victory over Dorukan, the MitD offers Redcloak a plate of tacos during his little fiesta thing with the cockroaches. How is he holding this? There are little bars in the cage window, through which he is somehow able to hold out a large platter. So, then, he's either somehow telekinetic, or his limbs are thin enough to fit through the bars of his cage- an issue also present in his attempted grabbing of the stew.

So one thing the front page hasn't mentioned is that whatever appendage or ability to manipulate objects the MitD has, it can fit through or manipulate outside of the bars of a small window. I'm not sure how significant this is, but hopefully it can fan the candle flame a bit.

It is not explicitly stated, but we have gone through it several times. The fact remains that first and foremost, he is a Monster in the Darkness, and thus Rich doesn't show any part of him, even when his hand could be shown. It easily fits into the minimalistic style of the comic (where limbs are black lines), and little can be read into it. It is, however, the foundation for the idea that he may be psionic (and as such it is mentioned in the psionic tab).

About the circus: I think what the strange cylinder you speak of is one of the rivets of the cage, but I don't have the books with me at the moment, so I cannot check. It is, however, a point against psionics, as far as I can tell, since a psionic creature wouldn't need to rock the box to hold the bucket, it would only levitate it to the bars.

Edit: also, don't bother spoilering SoD stuff. that's what I put a big spoiler in the first page. Anyone here, wanting to discuss MitD, has to deal with the fact that almost all the clues come from SoD. If they don't want the spoilers, they shouldn't be in this thread at all.

Grey Wolf

[Ris]

Interesting ideas all the way though and a great post. I'm not sure I agree with much of it, but it's made me think of things I'd never considered before, so I really appreciate that.That's what I was going for most of all, so cool :smallsmile: Thanks for all the feedback on my post, you've given me a lot of interesting stuff to think about too.

After rereading all the MitD strips mentioned in the useful links section of the OP, of course now I want to go back to SoD to review more, but I'm on vacation this week and left that book at home, so it'll have to wait. But I wanted to say 2 more things.

---

1. When I posted above that MitD is arbitrarily overpowered... I no longer agree with my own statement. I see repeated indication that he has very high strength and very low intellect, which screams melee class, in caricature, as opposed to any kind of caster class.

He casts 2 spells, or spell-like abilities, "Stop" and "Escape". I think the "Stop" can be explained by high strength, and not actually a spell effect, just a booming voice. Escape is harder to pin down, but I still lean towards the idea that it's a generic ability of any random encounter to escape, not strictly a spell, but... /shrug. I honestly don't know.

---

2. I took a good hard look at strip 651 "two eyes in the dark" named for the MitD and the rules of Go, and I believe the Go board layout in that strip is a very significant clue.

In Go rules, a point on the board that is completely surrounded by the same color is called an "eye" and is considered that color's territory. 2 eyes in adjacent areas that are controlled by the same color make that region of the board uncapturable. O-Chul gives some metaphorical exposition about this idea of MitD being surrounded by enemies, but not captured.

If you look at the Go board, like from 5 feet away from your computer screen, it resembles a humanoid figure of stick figure art, converted to pointalism, and black and white, and probably color-inverted because the outline is white and the body is black. (which is also because O-Chul is winning the game)

Going with the idea that the go board layout is a representation of what MitD looks like...

The two eyes in the dark are in the middle/front of the face (as opposed to sitting atop the ends of eye stalks) and it looks like a humanoid figure that reminds me somewhat of an Ootsverse Kobold. It seems to have 2 ears or horns that stick up over its head. And some kind of hunch back or hump (maybe?). And 2 legs / basically overall a humanoid figure.

[Ris]

You are referring to part 4 of the serial "logopolis" where the entity called "The Watcher" merges with the 4th Doctor (Tom Baker) during his regeneration in to the 5th Doctor (Peter Davidson). The watcher was a sort of "Ghost in advance" of the 5th Doctors existence.
OMG I can't believe you knew what I was talking about, and that specifically! Wow you rule! :smallsmile:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I see repeated indication that he has very high strength and very low intellect, which screams melee class, in caricature, as opposed to any kind of caster class.

Correction: high strength, high intelligence (picks up Go quickly), low wisdom. The "beautiful" comment in the circus may indicate high Charisma, which is a major support of the sorcerer-like abilities (dread linnorm).

However, since he is Epic, all his attributes, more likely than not, are in the upper 20s and above, and he is this naïve simply due to plot/characterisation.


He casts 2 spells, or spell-like abilities, "Stop" and "Escape". I think the "Stop" can be explained by high strength, and not actually a spell effect, just a booming voice. Escape is harder to pin down, but I still lean towards the idea that it's a generic ability of any random encounter to escape, not strictly a spell, but... /shrug. I honestly don't know.

Actually, there are at least one more spell-like abilities: he also breaks the ground in what looks like an earthquake-like effect, and may or may not have caused rain (I lean towards "no", but I can see it as a subtle clue). But I should add that I think his shout is unlikely as it is to be an actual effect, and rather more a reflection that the mild-mannered MitD has a bit of a temper.


2. I took a good hard look at strip 651 "two eyes in the dark" named for the MitD and the rules of Go, and I believe the Go board layout in that strip is a very significant clue.

Oh my Zeus, I had hoped we were past the "I see clues in Go" stage. I believe it was Nerdanel who most spoused the idea that the Go board is an image of Tarrasque, although I vaguely remember it mentioned in the strip's daily thread at the time, too. I think it is pulling at straws, if nothing else because I cannot for the life of me see anything, no matter how much I close up, or stand far, or squint (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061016) my eyes. Sorry. That said, don't let that discourage you - it just won't be a rational argument, since that barely counts as "evidence".


OMG I can't believe you knew what I was talking about, and that specifically! Wow you rule! :smallsmile:

Friendly reminder: don't double post, it's against the board rules. Edit and add it to your previous post, instead.

Grey Wolf

[cybernerd223]

okay everything i have seen supports my theory, i think it has something to do with the tarrasque... think about it... his dad was BIG and they are both always hungry, the tarrasque is the most powerful monster ever, not to pretty and not to smart either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

okay everything i have seen supports my theory, i think it has something to do with the tarrasque...

Not "your" theory, since it has been proposed over 20 times before


think about it... his dad was BIG and they are both always hungry, the tarrasque is the most powerful monster ever, not to pretty and not to smart either.

Please see the first post of the thread, section 3b.

Also, please be aware that Tarrasque is not "the most powerful monster ever". At CR 20, it's not even epic.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

The basic Tarrasque is unworkable for the MitD for several good reasons. The only way to make the Tarrasque idea work and take advantage from the undeniable Tarrasque-like features the MitD has is to add several templates on top of a Tarrasque.

[dspeyer]

One other bit of data: MitD speaks black on white. Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Outsiders and Undead don't. Humanoids, Magical Beasts and Aberrations do (though there haven't been enough aberrations to say for sure). Giants do, but with bold text. I don't recall any monstrous humanoids in the strip, so we don't know their bubbles. The other types aren't capable of doing the things MitD does. This might narrow things down a bit.

[Forbiddenwar]

The basic Tarrasque is unworkable for the MitD for several good reasons. The only way to make the Tarrasque idea work and take advantage from the undeniable Tarrasque-like features the MitD has is to add several templates on top of a Tarrasque.

Still doesn't work. No amount of template stacking can explain the Wish ability

[lothos]

okay everything i have seen supports my theory, i think it has something to do with the tarrasque... think about it... his dad was BIG and they are both always hungry, the tarrasque is the most powerful monster ever, not to pretty and not to smart either.

Hi Cybernerd223, welcome to this thread. You might not be aware that this thread is the second one about MitD. There are actually 50 pages of a previous thread discussing what MitD might be.

Grey Wolf spent a HUGE amount of time and effort summarising the consensus of the last thread in to the first post of this new thread. You might like to consider reviewing his summary as it's a superb primer on what has been discussed before. Just go to the first page of this thread and read the very first post.

The Tarrasque has been debated many, many times. There are certainly some arguments in favour of it, but as Grey Wolf and others pointed out in response to your post, there are some key aspects of MitD abilities that a "pure" Tarrasque can't explain.

Template stacking on top of the Tarraque has been proposed too, but as Forbiddenwar states, there are some problems there too.


Still doesn't work. No amount of template stacking can explain the Wish ability

I know we some people have spent a lot of time researching templates and I haven't, so apologies if this is a dumb question - but is there a template that grants either Miracle or Limited Wish.

I don't know if Limited wish could be powerful enough to account for "Escape", but if there is a template which grants it, it might be worth considering. I know Miracle would suggest the intercession of a deity, but if it's a spell like ability it might not imply that MitD knows about the deity or prays to it like a cleric does.

If there is a template that grants either of these, I would give more serious consideration to a template stacking option for MitD.


OMG I can't believe you knew what I was talking about, and that specifically! Wow you rule! :smallsmile:

Thanks. I'm a bit of a Scifi geek and growing up in the UK, I remember watching Tom Baker regenerate in 1981. It was a big deal because he had played the Doctor for 7 years and only being 7 years old at the time, it was the first regeneration I'd ever seen. Also being 7, I didn't mind how little of the story made sense either :-)

So now I guess we need to consider the idea that MitD is a Dalek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek), Cyberman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberman) or even The Master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_(Doctor_Who)). After all The Master is well known for disguising himself as people even when it makes no sense in the plot of the story. He might well disguise himself as the MitD for almost 700 strips just because he feels like it :-)

[Nerdanel]

The "Escape" ability doesn't HAVE to be any sort of Wish effect. It could fit, but creatures with Wish or similar are in a very limited supply and have their own problems. Another possibility could be some sort of teleport effect.

- (Greater) (Psionic) Teleport where the MitD has Dimensional Anchor
- (Greater) (Psionic) Teleport with the target line read as ((... and ...) or ...) instead of (... and (... or ...))
- Plane Shift where the target plane is the Material Plane and the "another plane" bit is read to exclude nothing since any plane is "another" from the view of some other plane and the targetting was just incredibly lucky (see the Rule of Funny) or aided by the Twelve Gods

Dream Larva specific stuff:

- Dreamscape grossly ignoring part of the rules text
- Sending rules-lawyered to the max, with damage treated as optional and exit point treated as arbitrary

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The alternative, of course, is to start the template stack with a creature that already has wish. Say, a half-demon/angel (of the appropriate type) half-earth elemental velocirraptor.

Grey Wolf

[silversaraph]

Does the cloister effect also prevent people from teleporting out unless they're using epic magic?


Hey, new theory. Mitd keeps having character development and seems to get more powerful as the series goes on. But it's not a regular development like the rest of the characters... it's like he's preparing for something. I give you....

AN EVOLUTION!

Snorlax is evolving! What will it become?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does the cloister effect also prevent people from teleporting out unless they're using epic magic?

Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) doesn't stop magic performed inside from reaching outside, only stops outside effects going in (except through summoning)

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

Are there any good base creatures with Wish to build a template-stack on?

I think Solars and Pit Fiends don't really fit, and ancient+ dragons that cast as sorcerers don't either. In particular, reducing size with the published templates can be only done so far. That leaves us with what? Djinni, Efreeti, and Dao? Those aren't that great either.

Is there somewhere a list of creatures with spell-like or other Wish?

[Gandariel]

something i just noticed

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

redcloak says "you'll break it"
but we know the phylatchery is strongly protected
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

so why?
rule of funny?
MitD is SO strong to break through all (epic) defenses the phylatchery has?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

something i just noticed

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

redcloak says "you'll break it"
but we know the phylatchery is strongly protected
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

so why?
rule of funny?
MitD is SO strong to break through all (epic) defenses the phylatchery has?

He can crack earth with a half-hearted stomp, and send a horse flying through a reinforced wall with a light hit. I think the is strong enough to break through the defences of the phylactery.

But Rule of Funny could be it, or maybe Rich hadn't really thought through how the phylactery is protected at that point. It could even be unprotected at that point - Xykon had plenty of time in his hands later on (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

I don't remember this being discussed (which could just be my fault) ...

Don't most monsters have differently-drawn eyes from humanoids? Dragons, demons, beholders, don't have the classic two oval eyes.

This suggests to me that the MitD has a humanoid head or face, instead of a dragon or tarrasque sort of arrangement.

Anyone want to argue this?

[Nerdanel]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

[Selene]

I'd never considered MitD might be a time lord ! :-)

I suppose the decayed version of the Master might make somebody throw up...

[Gandariel]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

On the contrary. MitD doesn't know his own strength, and probably plays very rough with his toys. That is the equivalent of taking 20 on a break attempt, and thus Nerdanel's calculations are correct.

I disagree with the assumption, though. It is possible to break something a bit at a time, the equivalent of a baby smashing his rattler against the crib until it is gone, which is how I see MitD playing with anything, and so he would only need to beat the hardness a few times, even if the hardness has been magically enhanced.

Indeed, I can easily see MitD just stepping on the thing, dealing a hundred and score damage and thus reducing the phylactery to dust in the process.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

Small children don't tend to know their own strength. Thus they can commonly break toys accidentally even though older, wiser, and stronger children would break those same toys almost exclusively only on purpose. It's not about the total strength score; it's about how it's used. Burly bodybuilders are capable of gentler caresses than small babies. The MitD apparently isn't any good at moderating his own strength, as can be seen in the "who can hit the lightest" competition. Thus I think using the break DC here is appropriate.

[Shale]

I was rereading the MitD vs. Miko bit, and noticed two things that I missed before.

1) The self-inflicted paper cut can be explained by the MitD's tongue lacking whatever natural armor provides his high defense or DR, in addition to the other possible reasons (epic resistance, rule of funny).

2) The MitD has a tongue, providing further proof that it's not a construct, ghostly being, etc.

[dspeyer]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

The only untemplated str 50+ OGL creature that eats and speaks black-on-white is the Hagunemnon (Protean), though we would have to wonder why it hasn't evolved into something with far longer arms yet.

[Shale]

Simple - the MitD hasn't been shown drinking coffee.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2) The MitD has a tongue, providing further proof that it's not a construct, ghostly being, etc.

That is an excellent point and I'm adding it right now to the list.


Simple - the MitD hasn't been shown drinking coffee.

I assume this is meant as a joke but, if so is the case, I don't get it.

GW

[Shale]

The Hagunemnon is a reference to the original Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio shows, where the Haggunenon were a species of shapeshifters that don't so much transform as evolve on the spot to fit whatever situation they're in. The example the narrator gives is that, if a Haggunenon wanted sugar for its coffee but couldn't reach the spoon, it would immediately evolve into something with far longer arms - but which is probably completely incapable of drinking coffee.

[Forbiddenwar]

(sorry, this is me thinking out loud, and I thought it might be helpful) On template stacking:

There are 2 problems with using templates to reach MitD abilities. And 2 solutions.

1) as far as I know, there is no template that gives a teleport or wish ability. This is why MitD cannot be a templated Tarrasque.
Solution: The base creature must have teleport, miracle or wish as a Spell like ability

2) Templates, IMO, break Rich's words. A template stack of 2 or more templates on an individual base creature is very unique, and will have to be created in order to fit.
Solution: If someone else, prior to 2005, had developed the template stack in a published module or Dragon Magazine or even on a website somewhere (anyone check the gaming section of this website?), it would qualify.

I don't know if that helps or not, but those are my thoughts on the subject.

[Nerdanel]

I went to the trouble of actually stacking together some templates so that you can see the result in one compact form.

The Monster in the Darkness
Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Radiant Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Size/Type: Colossal Outsider (Augmented Magical Beast, Earth, Native, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 48d12 + 738 (1050 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), Fly 40 ft. (8 squares) (average)
Armor Class: 43 (-8 Size, +4 Dex, +37 Natural), touch 6, flat-footed 39
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+87
Attack: Bite +71 melee (4d8+23/18-20x3)
Full Attack: Bite +71 melee (4d8+23/18-20x3) and 2 horns +66 melee (1d10+11) and 2 claws +66 melee (3d6+11) and tail slap +66 melee (3d8+11)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Breath weapon, carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, darkvision 60', dazzling, fast healing 2 (as long as there is light), immunity to cold, fire, poison, disease, paralysis, sleep, becoming blinded, dazed, dazzled and stunned, earth effects, energy drain, and ability damage, naturally psionic, power resistance 58, regeneration 40, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +41, Ref +30, Will +25
Abilities: Str 57 (+23), Dex 18 (+4), Con 41 (+15), Int 7 (-2), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 26 (+8)
Skills: ??? (204 skill points) (Racial bonuses: Hide: -8, Listen, +8, Spot +12)
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness(6)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 29
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Chaotic Neutral

Augmented Critical (Ex)
The MitD's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Breath Weapon (Su)
The MitD can 1/day breathe a line of light for 6d8 damage (DC 53, reflex half). The DC is constitution based.

Dazzling (Su)
Creatures within 30' that look at the MitD are Dazzled for 1d6 rounds (DC 46, will negates). The DC is charisma based.

Frightful Presence (Su)
The MitD can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 46 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the MitD. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, the MitD must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Rush (Ex)
Once per minute, the normally slow-moving MitD can move at a speed of 150 feet.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
The MitD can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the MitD's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the MitD's digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The MitD's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Carapace (Ex)
The MitD’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the MitD. The MitD regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 1060 hp). The MitD is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The MitD can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 1060 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the MitD loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Psi-like Abilities:
3/day - defensive precognition, empty mind, intellect fortress, mind thrust, psionic teleport; 1/day - aversion, body adjustment, brain lock, energy current, fisssion, force screen, psionic blast, psionic dominate, psychic crush, tower of iron will, ultrablast

Spell-like abilities:
3/day - blur, color spray; 1/day - earthquake, elemental swarm, freedom of movement, iron body, magic stone, mirror image, plane shift, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, rainbow pattern, repulsion, scintillating pattern, searing light, soften earth/stone, spike stone, stoneskin, stoneshape, wall of stone

Notes:
- This is a fully-grown version of the MitD. It is unknown how the OOTS-verse deals with monsters without defined childhood stats.
- The exact templates are still be subject to discussion. Notably, with the addition of Radiant which raises Int, the most important thing Half-Dragon does evidence-vise is raising the MitD's strength score to the fifties. There might also be even more templates.
- The templates cannot be added in just any order due to requirements.
- The feats are straight from the tarrasque. I didn't fill in the skills.
- The MitD's wisdom here is moderately high. It is possible that the difference with the comic is due to the MitD's young age or that the MitD has suffered wisdom drain to which it isn't immune. (Someone might have used the allip method of Tarrasque neutralizing on the MitD's father, with the MitD also getting hit in the fray.)
- The stat block assumes that magic and power resistances are different in the OOTS world, thus obeying an optional rule instead of the default. This is to allow Xykon to cast mind-affecting spells on the MitD without making the caster level check to pierce the MitD's spell resistance too difficult for Xykon to pass realistically.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Frightful Presence (Su)
The MitD can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 46 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the MitD. The save DC is Charisma-based.

We've been through my problems with template stacking and how I feel they violate the spirit of Rich's word, so I won't rehash it here. Instead, I'm going to point out that Frightful Presence requires MitD to charge or attack, and thus does not apply in the SoD circus scene when we know from MitD's own words that he just stands there and gets looked at.

Grey Wolf

[Forbiddenwar]

Snip.

And to think, if you posted this online back in 2004, it would be a contender. Can you find it in a published module or magazine?

Also, what books have the phrenic and radiant templates? Is that the part that gives spell like and psionic abilities?

Edit: it is still colossal, can you slap on 10-15 Dungeonbred templates to shrink it down to large?
edit again::smallredface:whoops, young version, got it. So that would mean the same as rich made it up, right? unless there is a published version of a young version of the template stack as well.

[Nerdanel]

The Frightful Presence special ability can have different activations.


This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text.

It is conceivable that the MitD would have a different wording on his Frightful Presence ability than the standard, unmodified Tarrasque. As the MitD is smarter and more civilized than the basic Tarrasque, the range of dramatic actions he could perform is much wider.

It can also be argued that every Frightful Presence has the same set of potential activations, but different creatures simply prefer some of them. For example, an unmodified, animalistic Tarrasque wouldn't threaten to bathe in the blood of its audience, but if it did so, it would certainly evoke fear.

[Nimrod's Son]

One other bit of data: MitD speaks black on white. Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Outsiders and Undead don't.
...Except for Sabine. It seems that anyone can have a regular speech bubble if the plot requires the speaker's true identity to remain a secret.

[Nerdanel]

The version of the MitD for which I gave the statblock is an Outsider with the Native subtype (courtesy of the Radiant template). Being a Native Outsider means that the MitD eats, sleeps, and breathes, and could very well also have the normal type of speech bubble. (Sabine may have the normal speech bubble due to her being a shapeshifter.)

Phrenic is an SRD template originally from Expanded Psionics Handbook.

I found the Radiant Creature template from the Crystalkeep template list, but it's originally from the Dragon magazine.

Half-Earth Elemental is from Manual of the Planes and has also apparently appeared in the Dragon magazine. I used the Crystalkeep list again.

Half-Dragon is core, although Half-Dragon (Crystal) isn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is conceivable that the MitD would have a different wording on his Frightful Presence ability than the standard, unmodified Tarrasque. As the MitD is smarter and more civilized than the basic Tarrasque, the range of dramatic actions he could perform is much wider.

It can also be argued that every Frightful Presence has the same set of potential activations, but different creatures simply prefer some of them. For example, an unmodified, animalistic Tarrasque wouldn't threaten to bathe in the blood of its audience, but if it did so, it would certainly evoke fear.

All that would require Rich rewriting MitD's type, which we know hasn't happened. If MitD were the imposible Tarrasque, or the implausible Templated!Tarrasque, the description is what it is, and Frightful Presence wouldn't kick in just by standing in the limelight.

On the other hand, Rich does bend the rules, but I would expect him to pay a lot more attention to it in SoD, when he was consciously giving us clues about MitD. If he had his MM open at the "T", he'd see that frightful presence requires an action, and thus would not have MitD specifically not doing anything at all.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

All that would require Rich rewriting MitD's type, which we know hasn't happened. If MitD were the imposible Tarrasque, or the implausible Templated!Tarrasque, the description is what it is, and Frightful Presence wouldn't kick in just by standing in the limelight.

On the other hand, Rich does bend the rules, but I would expect him to pay a lot more attention to it in SoD, when he was consciously giving us clues about MitD. If he had his MM open at the "T", he'd see that frightful presence requires an action, and thus would not have MitD specifically not doing anything at all.

Grey Wolf

I think the extremely loud shout of "NO!" combined with evil-style eyes (suggesting that the tone of the voice was threatening) was enough to use Frightful Presence on Haley and Belkar.

On the other hand, I think the people at the circus might have been instead Dazzled for 1d6 turns by the Radiant template, something that normally doesn't trigger since the MitD spends his time hidden in magical darkness where no one sees him.

[Flyingfox]

I actually think he is some kind of small Gray Render. He could have lost his eyes somehow or something. The only problem is the teleportation.

[Gri]

Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"

It's one of the Jonas brothers?

[lothos]

Hello,
I'd like to propose another candidate to be considered as the base creature for some template addition. This creature can't perform either earthquake or wish without some extra abilities from a template, but it has some intriguing qualities in common with MitD.

The "Truly Horrid Umber Hulk" from the 3.5 edition Monster manual on page 248 and 249 has a CR of 14, so not in the same leauge as the epic monsters we have considered. However it has these interesting features:


Strength 36 - Comparable with some epic monsters
They are "occasionally found in the service of evil dragons or sorcerers, guarding their lairs"... would fit MitD role well :-)
Confusing Gaze - Confusion as per the spell. As a juvenile, this might explain the reactions of the circus attendees.
When fully grown stand 16 feet high and weigh over 8000 pounds.

This creature definitely isn't MitD unless there are templates stacked. We would need to explain "Escape" somehow, and probably earthquake (half earth elemental ?)

Now I know you could say "oh, well pick almost any creature and stack enough templates to explain everything away. Why is he specifically mentioning this creature ?" It caught my eye because of the 3 points up above, especially that it explicitly mentions them being in the service of evil sorcerers. I know almost ANY creature could in theory be in the service of an evil sorcerer, but the fact it's specifically mentioned might be significant.

[Nerdanel]

I did some more looking through the templates. Some things I noticed:

Monster of Legend, among other nice things like sizable stat boosts, gives the choice of one of the following Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence, Poison, Raging Blood, and Spells. Frightful Presence is of particular note:


All creatures within 20' that have fewer HD than the Monster of Legend are Shaken when it roars, growls, etc. Effect lasts until target is more than 20' away.


This could explain the scene with Haley and Belkar.

Oh, an in case you wonder, the spells a Monster of Legend may get are only limited cleric spells of up to the fifth level, so they don't have much explanatory power.

The biggest problem with Monster of Legend relates to template stacking. It can be added only on an Animal, Magical Beast, or a Monstrous Humanoid while many nice templates (like this one) do things like turn the creature into an Outsider. This wouldn't have to be a problem, except that the template doesn't say that it's inherited, and inherited templates are always added first. On the other hand, Monster of Legend doesn't say it's acquired either...

Half-Troll is a template that, among other things, greatly increases physical stats while decreasing mental ones. However, of particular note is that the base creature gains many of the Troll attributes, among which is insatiable hunger. This template is also the only one I've found that make the target eat a lot, MitD-style. (There are other templates like Ravenous and Ghul that also cause some sort of hunger effect, but those range from implausible to downright impossible for the MitD.)

So if the base creature isn't already a big eater (like the Tarrasque), it implies that we need to add Half-Troll on top of it. If not, Half-Troll might be there anyway, but we have no evidence for it.

Half-Nymph has Awesome Beauty which does a very good job of explaining the audience reactions at the circus.


Any humanoid within 30' who looks at the Half-Nymph is Shaken (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based) for 1 minute. Continued looking results in additional saves, the failure of which resets the duration.


This template can explain how the MitD can be beautiful and ugly at the same time if the rest of the stack handles the ugly. The Half-Fey template in particular is a good source for it, as are crossbreeds with ugly creatures like Half-Troll. Significantly, Awesome Beauty affects only humanoids, and goblinoids are not humanoids, which explains the differing reactions of humans and goblins in the audience.

The problem is that Half-Nymph can only be added on top of a humanoid, and the selection of humanoid base creatures is severely limited. Additionally, no template turns anything into a humanoid.

So, perhaps something like (going on a limb here, and even I think this is very much ridiculous and speculative, but bear with me since OOTS is a humor comic)...

Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Water Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Half-Fey Half-Ogre Half-Scrag Half-Troll Half-Nymph Half-Elf?

If the MitD has a humanoid base creature, it needs to be something slowly-maturing like an Elf or a Half-Elf. Starting with a mere Humanoid, the template stack also needs a lot of strength raising templates in it, which I chose semi-randomly.

However, it is questionable if the MitD can be a humanoid at all, given the reactions of the stereotypical big game hunters.

[Moogleking]

Interesting stuff.

What monsters have those abilities naturally?

[Nerdanel]

Frightful Presence is, like, really common, although not all of them have the exact same activation and other rules.

- Dragons (tons and tons of different dragons)
- Flesh Colossus (does not fit the MitD)
- Tarrasque
- Vermiurge (We haven't seen the demon roaches in big enough numbers to make this sound very likely.)
- Worm That Walks (I have a hard time seeing the MitD as a caster returned from the dead)

There may be even more; these are just from the SRD.

The question of which base creatures are big eaters is more about fluff. I know the Tarrasque counts, and apparently so do trolls, and a whole lot of the more animalistic monsters could too.

As far as I know, only the Half-Nymph template has Awesome Beauty. A full Nymph has Blinding Beauty, which works differently.

[silversaraph]

Two more things about comic 651 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html). The first is that in panel three, the Mitd says "your move" spontaneously, implying that O-chul wasn't controlling the pieces. That means the Mitd was doing so, and is looking straight ahead when he says this, so he wasn't leaning down to get at the marble. He says this in a close up panel after O-Chul does his move, where you can't see the board. This means that either the Mitd has some type of appendage that can reach his entire height downward (he's not leaning) or he's using some psionic ability. Furthermore, he isn't even looking down at the board when he places the piece, and if you count the marbles in the first three panels, the first three rows stay the same shape and color, so it must have been farther than that.

Try putting a marble on a very, very specific part of stone while standing upright with your arms leaning over an object, not even looking at the stone. To me, I think of something with long tentacles with eyes on the ends. Is there anything like that?

Second thing, people have talked about what the closeup of the go board looks like and if it may be a monster shape or something. What about the panel right before with it? That one looks like a skull and a rat. Um.

Third, just noticed thing, is that if they can see Vaarsuvius and team evil in the second to last panel from that spot, can't they see them, too? I mean, not at that specific moment, but why is Redcloak and Xykon letting them play "Go" together? It should be pretty easy to tell what's going on.

If I've repeated what someone else has said please don't blow up on me.

Edit: Wait, no! He's an elephant! the long appendage thing works perfectly! He just has to be a PSYCHIC elephant, and a whole lot actually makes sense!

That's the problem with these theories. They have a lot with them, but still have a bunch of holes. (Not indigenous to the rainforest, father was big and ate a lot, scares people who have never seen it before...) We need more wacky theories that sort-of fit.:smalltongue:

[Nerdanel]

I think maybe we should comb through the monsters with Frightful Presence. I found out that in all the SRD only Monster of Legend had a template that comes from roaring or the like.

If this trend holds, we might be able to determine that if we agree that the big "NO!" triggered Frightful Presence on Haley and Belkar, the MitD must be a Monster of Legend and therefore he must also be template-stacked to some degree. It also would mean that the MitD's base creature must be an Animal, Magical Beast, or a Monstrous Humanoid (or a Humanoid template-stacked to become a Monstrous Humanoid - if this were the case we could also get the Half-Nymph in).

Also, it occurred to me that since in the beginning of the story Rich was more cautious of using non-SRD stuff, perhaps that could be an argument of the MitD being purely SRD. That would be a problem for the Half-Earth Elemental, for one thing, though. The SRD doesn't have that many templates.

Potentially relevant SRD templates:
- Monster of Legend
- Half-Dragon (chromatic or metallic)
- Half-Fiend
- Half-Celestial
- Phrenic
- Paragon
- Lycanthrope
- Aasimar
- Tiefling
- Half-Giant
- Pseudonatural

[megabyter5]

Just look at all the ridiculous ideas. You all know very well that the MitD will never be revealed to be template-stacked, because the Giant has practically outright said it. At most, it'll be a single template, and not one unique to D&D players (for example, the uninitiated would recognize a lycanthrope, but probably not a pseudonatural creature).

I still maintain it's going to be played for laughs and turn out to be something real, but comically exaggerated for these purposes, like the infamous Killer Rabbit.

[Koretsu]

Just look at all the ridiculous ideas. You all know very well that the MitD will never be revealed to be template-stacked, because the Giant has practically outright said it. At most, it'll be a single template, and not one unique to D&D players (for example, the uninitiated would recognize a lycanthrope, but probably not a pseudonatural creature).

I still maintain it's going to be played for laughs and turn out to be something real, but comically exaggerated for these purposes, like the infamous Killer Rabbit.

It's Elan, at epic levels, traveling back in time from the future. :smalltongue:

[Nerdanel]

I just noticed that in fact I was hasty and Half-Giant is a race and not a template. But anyway, I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread yet that the sample Half-Giant has Stomp as a psi-like ability. What happened in the scene where Haley and Belkar had to fish Roy's corpse from the rift does sound more like Earthquake than Stomp, but on the other hand the sound effect was "stomp".

Well, perhaps the MitD does have levels in psychic warrior and he spent all/most of his power points augmenting that stomp (Overchannel feat?), which is why the stomp turned out so powerful and why the MitD felt so drained right after.

Redcloak wouldn't necessarily know about the MitD's mental powers just by looking at him, and he's never paid much attention on what the MitD has to say. On the other hand, the demon roaches have been hanging around the MitD and probably have the best idea of any in the OOTS world of what the MitD can do.

This is a promising avenue...

[Selene]

I think it must be Keith Baker. He was trapped in the Helldeathdoomfire volcano all that time after he and Yydrana beat out Xykon for that second-in-command job. He's a writer, so he can write characters out of existence. That's scary. And he's weird to look at because in black and white, it looks like his eyes are two different colors.

We can stack templates on to make him fit if we must.

[cybernerd223]

sheesh, you people are WAY over thinking it, i dont think rich had a bachelor in logic, he probably just found a monster from a book and made it hidden.

[Kish]

sheesh, you people are WAY over thinking it, i dont think rich had a bachelor in logic,

Assuming you mean "Bachelor's degree," I don't either. Largely because I don't know any school that has Logic as a major (Logic classes generally come under Philosophy, in my limited experience). Not, ah, that I'm at all clear on why a degree in Logic rather than (say) a degree in Mythology would be relevant to the identity of the creature in the darkness.

If you object to a thread, or think "he probably just found a monster from a book and made it hidden" should define all anyone here cares about knowing, wouldn't it make more sense to not post in it? Some people want to speculate about what kind of creature the creature in the darkness is. It neither picks your leg nor breaks your pocket.

[Selene]

sheesh, you people are WAY over thinking it, i dont think rich had a bachelor in logic, he probably just found a monster from a book and made it hidden.


Such as...?

[Azukar]

Could the "Darkness" aspect be a major element? Are there any dark-based monsters out there that fit the profile?

I say this mostly because MitD is in shadow no matter where he is, even when under nothing more than the meagre protection of an umbrella.

Throwaway joke, probably. But could it be relevant?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Could the "Darkness" aspect be a major element? Are there any dark-based monsters out there that fit the profile?

I say this mostly because MitD is in shadow no matter where he is, even when under nothing more than the meagre protection of an umbrella.

Throwaway joke, probably. But could it be relevant?

Unfortunately, it is not true that he is always in the shadows - in the circus, he was exposed to the public, and they could see him. The umbrella is enchanted to create shadows around him.

Grey Wolf

[Acero]

has anyone else realized that the MitD has the same eyes as the IIFC?

[Kish]

has anyone else realized that the MitD has the same eyes as the IIFC?
? One fiend has yellow eyes like the creature in the darkness, but none of their eyes are the same shape.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And finally, after strip after strip of those stupid OotS guys (man, what do they think they are? the main characters? Everyone knows we're here to see MitD), we're back (http://www.GiantITP.com/comics/oots0699.html) to the dearest of our hearts.*

And he is even poking at the central MitD problem: the escape. Can we strain a clue out of this comic? I fear not, but if we squint a lot and turn our heads, we may want to consider the line "but I don't know any magic! Magic is for smart people, usually, and everyone here tells me I'm as dumb as things that are really dumb."

For one thing, we know that MitD is not that dumb (he picked up Go! quickly). For another, not all magic depends on intelligence, obviously. But if Rich is throwing us a bone, this could be used to defend that MitD is indeed using int-based magic. Something to consider, at least, even if I'm not ready to add it to the first page quite just yet.

Grey Wolf

*Farcical. Please don't take seriously

[rokar4life]

Okay, so why can't it be a Snorlax, I get that it's copyrighted but that hasn't stopped Rich before.


Fun fact: I was the first to put out the idea of a Snorlax/Munchlax on these boards(not saying I was the first to think it)

Another fun fact: Un-copyrightable is the longest word in the English language in which no letter is repeated.

[Seppl]

It seems the MitD does only know other planes from other people talking about them. So it is probably not an outsider.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, so why can't it be a Snorlax, I get that it's copyrighted but that hasn't stopped Rich before.

It's trademarked, rather than copyrighted. And Rich has not been stopped by trademarks before because parody is an allowed exception to intellectual property rights, while putting Mickey Mouse or any character created after him as a main character - or a main antagonist, as in this case - is not parody.


Another fun fact: Un-copyrightable is the longest word in the English language in which no letter is repeated.

One of three: dermatoglyphics and misconjugatedly are just as long.

Grey Wolf

[J.Gellert]

It's strange how no monster fits exactly, and we're getting ideas from a finite list.

For me, the closest match is a baby Tarrasque. The only problem is that the tarrasque is supposed to be unique... But it's still closer than any other creature.

[Kish]

It's strange how no monster fits exactly, and we're getting ideas from a finite list.

For me, the closest match is a baby Tarrasque. The only problem is that the tarrasque is supposed to be unique...

Not to mention the lack of speaking, teleporting, and generally being epic.


But it's still closer than any other creature.
How figured? It doesn't fit at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's strange how no monster fits exactly, and we're getting ideas from a finite list.

It might be finite, but only in the same way sand grains in a beach are finite


For me, the closest match is a baby Tarrasque. The only problem is that the tarrasque is supposed to be unique... But it's still closer than any other creature.

Notice that you did not actually support your position, nor discuss its many obvious problems, as exposed in the first post. How does this advance the discussion? Because, unfortunately, this is not a democracy, so a vote for an idea that is generally considered impossible doesn't really help.

Grey Wolf

[rokar4life]

It's trademarked, rather than copyrighted. And Rich has not been stopped by trademarks before because parody is an allowed exception to intellectual property rights, while putting Mickey Mouse or any character created after him as a main character - or a main antagonist, as in this case - is not parody.

Grey Wolf

Wasn't quite clear on this part of copyright law. Thanks for the clarification.

[J.Gellert]

@ GreyWolf & Kish

Re-read 9 pages of topics to see the arguements for the Tarrasque.

Actually, go read the main reasons why it isn't (teleporation? really? how certain are you the MitD did it? Did you even read the latest strip?).

Also, support my position? Are you the voting police? I am only stating an opinion and not really obliged to explain everything. Besides, it isn't really hard to figure out in which ways the Tarrasque fits, I mean, it's one of the ideas stated on the very first post.

...so yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

[Shale]

Given that this is GreyWolf's thread? Yes, he is kind of in charge of the thing. And there's an entire entry in the first post about why the Tarrasque doesn't fit at all, which I'd imagine makes GW kind of annoyed when people don't read the damn thing.

Also, is MitD's proclamation that it knows no spells enough to assume that any magical effects it uses must therefore be spell-like abilities?

[J.Gellert]

Given that this is GreyWolf's thread? Yes, he is kind of in charge of the thing. And there's an entire entry in the first post about why the Tarrasque doesn't fit at all, which I'd imagine makes GW kind of annoyed when people don't read the damn thing.

Also, is MitD's proclamation that it knows no spells enough to assume that any magical effects it uses must therefore be spell-like abilities?

We aren't really certain on its magical effects, however. It can't duplicate them.

[Kish]

@ GreyWolf & Kish

Re-read 9 pages of topics to see the arguements for the Tarrasque.]
I've read them. They go, "Powerful and iconic." Occasionally also "hungry."

Then they stop, because nothing else points to the creature in the darkness being anything like a tarrasque. If you want to throw out all evidence that doesn't point to him being a tarrasque and then say the evidence points to him being a tarrasque, go ahead, have fun.

[TriForce]

@ GreyWolf & Kish

Re-read 9 pages of topics to see the arguements for the Tarrasque.

Actually, go read the main reasons why it isn't (teleporation? really? how certain are you the MitD did it? Did you even read the latest strip?).

Also, support my position? Are you the voting police? I am only stating an opinion and not really obliged to explain everything. Besides, it isn't really hard to figure out in which ways the Tarrasque fits, I mean, it's one of the ideas stated on the very first post.

...so yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

i think its you who didnt read the latest strip mate, if anything, its supporting the fact that the monster did it, so no points for your theory. also, as you pointed out yourself, the tarrasque is supposed to be unique, and the MitD is definatly not. in fact, the tarrasque really has no more similarities with the MitD then a earth elemental to be honest

[ArcanistSupreme]

The "Escape" ability could also be an ability that is only usable 1/day(or week/month, depending on the time gap), which would explain why MitD isn't able to duplicate the effects in the latest comic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

@ GreyWolf & Kish

Re-read 9 pages of topics to see the arguements for the Tarrasque.

9 pages? Have you noticed the 'II' in the title?


Actually, go read the main reasons why it isn't (teleporation? really? how certain are you the MitD did it? Did you even read the latest strip?).

Very certain. Because if it had been anything else (gods; V's mentor; Demons), Rich would've shown it by now. The latest strip does not suggest otherwise, only that MitD is finally aware of his abilities. But the first time the ability was activated when he was in a very particular situation, which has yet to happen again. If anything, it adds to the idea that the ability is innate, and tied to his emotion. Thus, supernatural, Spell-like or maybe psionic.


Also, support my position? Are you the voting police?

No, we are not. Because this is not a democracy. There is no "vote". This is a thread that attempts to patch together the clues to arrive at what MitD might be. An statement with no support is empty noise.


I am only stating an opinion and not really obliged to explain everything.

True, as far as it goes. But an unsupported opinion is pointless and useless. Tarrasque doesn't get more likely because 53 people like it rather than 52. And you can, I suppose, feel you are not "obliged to explain everything", but then I have to wonder why post at all, and are entitled to point it out, and request evidence.


Besides, it isn't really hard to figure out in which ways the Tarrasque fits, I mean, it's one of the ideas stated on the very first post.

Yes, I know. I posted that. Note also that Tarrasque would need to grow, so a baby would not remain a baby for 50 years. That it is not really all that powerful. That it has none of the powers expressed by MitD, except possibly Threatening appearance. Etc.


The "Escape" ability could also be an ability that is only usable 1/day(or week/month, depending on the time gap), which would explain why MitD isn't able to duplicate the effects in the latest comic.

Yes, we have considered that before. Unfortunately, there aren't that many such abilities. Yes, a "1/year" wish would explain why he would expect his wishes to come true. But since we still have trouble finding creatures that have basic "wish", nevermind conditionals, it remains a possibility, rather than determinant.

Remember, right now we want to widen the net. The candidates we already have don't fit all that well, no need on adding problems to the list :smallbiggrin:

Grey Wolf

[J.Gellert]

Very certain.

I don't think you should be.


True, as far as it goes. But an unsupported opinion is pointless and useless. Tarrasque doesn't get more likely because 53 people like it rather than 52. And you can, I suppose, feel you are not "obliged to explain everything", but then I have to wonder why post at all, and are entitled to point it out, and request evidence.

I wanted to say what I think it is. Should I have made a new thread? No, pointless. Resurrect one of the other 1000 threads on this? No necromancing. Not say it at all? Maybe, but hey, freedom of speech. I wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that didn't sound like it would hurt anyone, though looking back...


Yes, I know. I posted that. Note also that Tarrasque would need to grow, so a baby would not remain a baby for 50 years. That it is not really all that powerful. That it has none of the powers expressed by MitD, except possibly Threatening appearance. Etc.

Do you know how fast a baby Tarrasque grows/ages?

[Kish]

I wanted to say what I think it is. Should I have made a new thread? No, pointless. Resurrect one of the other 1000 threads on this? No necromancing. Not say it at all? Maybe, but hey, freedom of speech. I wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that didn't sound like it would hurt anyone, though looking back...
"I think it's a tarrasque" is a less controversial opinion than, "A tarrasque fits what we know about the creature in the darkness closer than any other creature." (By virtue of the latter being an assertion, not merely a statement of opinion, and an assertion of something which is flatly wrong.)

[Forbiddenwar]

I wanted to say what I think it is. Should I have made a new thread? No, pointless. Resurrect one of the other 1000 threads on this? No necromancing. Not say it at all? Maybe, but hey, freedom of speech. I wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that didn't sound like it would hurt anyone, though looking back...


Okay, you've stated an opinion, a very uninformed opinion. And we are trying to inform you to better shape your opinion. On that note, a 20th level barbarian or a grue or a vorlon or a snorlax fits better. Tarrasque doesn't even have the requisite strength at medium size.
Can we please move on?


The current strip shows that MitD is not a wizard. Hooray, we can take that off the list.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think you should be.

And you are back to unsupported assertions. The first time I could accept you didn't understand the thread's purpose. Now you have no excuse: you really are so egocentric you consider that your bald statement has validity. Notice I gave you reasons for my assertion. You gave nothing but your "Word from God". I consider Bald Assertion a fallacy (http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_4_bald_assertion), particularly when engaging in it after having been requested to provide evidence, and thus, due to my one fallacy limit, I will stop responding to your posts now.


Do you know how fast a baby Tarrasque grows/ages?

Yes: It doesn't, because traditionally there is no such thing as baby Tarrasque, since Tarrasque doesn't reproduce. IF you assume it does exist (and that's a big assumption), then assuming Dragon-like growth is a good assumption. And that would still require some growth over the 30 years of MitD.

EDIT:
The current strip shows that MitD is not a wizard. Hooray, we can take that off the list.

Unless is a double-bluff (combined with "too stupid to be a wizard", as I mentioned above).

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I bring up something old, but... it seems to me that there's absolutely no way the MitD is anything but an "official" D&D monster (regardless of the edition). That's basically the whole point of the comic...

Did Rich ever say anything about it? Unless there were hints that it might not be a D&D monster, I'd tend to scratch off every non-D&D possibility, copyrighted or not. It'd be so unnatural for the comic, I can't imagine Rich choosing an "external" monster.

[Forbiddenwar]

Unless is a double-bluff (combined with "too stupid to be a wizard", as I mentioned above).

Grey Wolf

Being able to cast a spell as a wizard requires studying the spell, scribing the spell in a book, utilizing the necessary components and preparing it before hand from that spellbook. All are traits that I don't subscribe to MITD. However, he may be an Intelligence based arcane spell caster. I think it is more probable him being a charisma based caster or using a spell-like ability.



Did Rich ever say anything about it?


No. Rich only stated he did not make up the creature himself.


It'd be so unnatural for the comic, I can't imagine Rich choosing an "external" monster.

I can, but then I have an active (some say insane) imagination.
I do think it is either a creature of D&D or ancient mythology origin (and therefore free of copyright or trademark). The difficulty of the later is no one can seem find any creature of ancient mythology having anything remotely like the "Escape" effect. So, yeah, D&D creature seems probable.

[Morthis]

I wanted to say what I think it is. Should I have made a new thread? No, pointless. Resurrect one of the other 1000 threads on this? No necromancing. Not say it at all? Maybe, but hey, freedom of speech. I wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that didn't sound like it would hurt anyone, though looking back...

Personally I love seeing freedom of speech thrown around on forums. The American First Amendment protects you from the government, nothing more. If a forum moderator tells you to shut up, bans you, deletes your post, or any other such thing, your First Amendment rights were not violated. The forum rules you have to accept before you can make an account set very clear restrictions on your "free speech".

[factotum]

Yes: It doesn't, because traditionally there is no such thing as baby Tarrasque, since Tarrasque doesn't reproduce.

Doesn't that kill the idea of the MitD being a Tarrasque stone dead anyway, considering he's mentioned having a father?

[Selene]

Doesn't that kill the idea of the MitD being a Tarrasque stone dead anyway, considering he's mentioned having a father?

It does unless you really, really, really want it to be the tarrasque. Then you just stack templates all over it and declare that it really does reproduce. At that point it's nothing like the actual tarrasque, but you get to call it that.