prestige classes that disgust you...

[kentma57]

Spell Addict(plot and poison pg 72), I found this gem a few years back and remembered it recently while building a boss for an up coming game.
Their casting goes something like:

Level: --------- Casting Class Bonus:
1----------------------+2
2----------------------+1
3----------------------+2
4----------------------+1
5----------------------+2

I'm working on a battle sorcerer, who has taken a major draconic(red) bloodline and a tone of dragon-ish fluff feat and maybe a fighter or crazy draconic prestige class dip.
Now I would never use this class if my guy had not lost a bunch of caster level and I wanted to keep things interesting, but still it's just wrong.

In its defence it does have a few drawbacks but they realy don't make a scratch in the fact that at 10th level you could get 4 6th level spells instead of 3 5th level spells...

So, have you ever encountered something this bad?

ps: before you yell at me I know it's 3rd part and 3.0 but with no update it could still technically be used, I only brought this thing up because I had the book out and it's funny.
pps: the fluff is kind of cool, though it was poorly implimented.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Cancer Mage. You're diseased. Who would want to be around that? :smallwink:

In seriousness, the Incantrix is terribad from a balance perspective. It doesn't even pretend to be balanced with the base class. Same with the Planar Shepherd. Also ones like Hulking Hurler and Dweomerkeeper, where it's obvious the designers didn't read their own rules.

On the opposite end, there are the ones that are so bad, you just want to cry for the wasted potential. Any of the Truename PrCs, the half-caster PrCs, and the Rogue PrCs without SA advancement. A lot of times they're too weak to use, but they could be usable with minor, non-OP fixes that anyone with a rudimentary understanding of balance could make. Such a waste.

[Eldariel]

Tainted Scholar. Completely broken and completely unplayable due to the mechanics. Basically one of the easiest TPK machines in existence.

[nekomata2]

...Green Star Adept....you poor poor construct idiot....

[Tavar]

Also ones like Hulking Hurler and Dweomerkeeper, where it's obvious the designers didn't read their own rules.
Explanation please. Not that I disagree with you, I know that both can be used in horribly abusive combos. I just don't know why they can be used that way.

the Rogue PrCs
QFT. I mean, what PrC's for sneaky classes actually give something decent to the class? Unseen Seer, but that's more cause you're combining it with Wizard.

[Boci]

Explanation please. Not that I disagree with you, I know that both can be used in horribly abusive combos. I just don't know why they can be used that way.

Hulking hurler is broken because of the many ways there are to boost your strength. If you do not pump strength its power is much less.

Dweomerkeeper is just broken. Wish for no XP is one of the lesser problems.

[Mongoose87]

The Eye of Gruumsh. You have to spend the feat to use an exotic weapon, and it's a crappy double weapon. What do you get for it? Natural armor, and you can spit a lot.

[sonofzeal]

Explanation please. Not that I disagree with you, I know that both can be used in horribly abusive combos. I just don't know why they can be used that way.
Thrown object rules state damage is linear by weight after a certain point.

Hulking Hurler lets you throw based on your carrying capacity

Carrying capacity is quadratic by strength.

Therefor, with Hulking Hurler your damage is quadratic by strength.

[Ladorak]

Acolyte of the Skin. Mainly because I still remember how excited I was about it when i was reading the fluff, the first time I cracked open my new copy of Complete Arcane, the first complete book I bought.

I really thought it sounded cool, and was such a positive indicator of the stuff that lay ahead in the book... And then I read the Crunch, and was very very disappointed. I remember that disappointment everytime someone mentions it, it really annoys me.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Explanation please. Not that I disagree with you, I know that both can be used in horribly abusive combos. I just don't know why they can be used that way. Carrying capacity rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm). Carrying capacity is multiplied by additional Str. A Hulking Hurler can throw items=in weight to his Medium Load. Sharp thrown weapons add 2d6 per 200 lbs. So you've got one number scaling linearly, the other by a multiplier. That is never going to balance.

Dweomerkeeper gets spells as Su abilities. Su abilites have no components(material or XP) and cannot be dispelled or disjoined. The only way to remove one involves AMF. So you have a char that can get free Wishes and render himself borderline immortal. That is scary-good.

[erikun]

The many versions of "Elemental Adept" prestige class. Virtually all of them are 6/10 or 7/10 caster level progression, and the abilities you get are typically not even worth the feats you used for entry. (Woohoo, I can change my spells to fire damage? Couldn't I do that already with the Energy Substitution feat?)

Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm). It's clear what it's trying to achieve, but it fails SO BADLY at it.

Any prestige class where text/table are inconsistent, simply because of the RAW debates over them.

[kentma57]

Explanation please. Not that I disagree with you, I know that both can be used in horribly abusive combos. I just don't know why they can be used that way.

QFT. I mean, what PrC's for sneaky classes actually give something decent to the class? Unseen Seer, but that's more cause you're combining it with Wizard.

Unseen Seer it a Rogue/Wizard PrCs.
While shadow dancer is a Rogue Prcs that takes away the rogue's best way of dealing damage in favor of a few questionably useful way to defend themselves and some cool fluff. (ex: 9 levels(15th odd level) into the Prcs you can control a 6HD shadow that is gone for a month if it is killed of dismised, great...)

[Tequila Sunrise]

Blackguard and Holy Liberator. Because "Wtf, I can't just be one from 1st level?!" That actually goes for quite a few PrCs, but PrCs that make you jump through hoops just to get around a base class' alignment restriction are extra revolting.

Balance wise? Just about any PrC that grants +1 CL at every level. Frenzied berserker. Meh, there's too many to count! PrCs suck.

[Wings of Peace]

Hulking hurler is broken because of the many ways there are to boost your strength. If you do not pump strength its power is much less.

Dweomerkeeper is just broken. Wish for no XP is one of the lesser problems.

Be more creative! Combo it with other things and cast an Explosive Persistent Apocalypse From The Sky! Why smite your enemy when you can smite a small country instead?

[Boci]

Be more creative! Combo it with other things and cast an Explosive Persistent Apocalypse From The Sky! Why smite your enemy when you can smite a small country instead?

Isn't that more an Incantrix thing? Ignore the level adjustment of the metamagic and profit?

[kentma57]

Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm). It's clear what it's trying to achieve, but it fails SO BADLY at it.

I have had of these guys work out well in a game I ran once.
Though it was gestalt so he still had full casting and I let him chanel spells from magic items when adding AOE spells to his attacks, and I let his classes automatic magic bonus to arrows stack with his bow's magic(Said that the bonus was untyped and there for could stack with anything).

But other than those minor factors/changes it was fine as it...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I have had of these guys work out well in a game I ran once. Though it was gestalt so he still had full casting and I let him chanel spells from magic items when adding AOE spells to his attacks, and I let his classes automatic magic bonus to arrows stack with his bow's magic(Said that the classes was acutaly untyped there for could stack with anything).

But other than those minor factors/changes it was fine as it...Yeah, you basically houseruled it back to being good. As-written, though, it sucks, since it's no-casting and the enhancement bonuses don't stack.

[Tavar]

Unseen Seer it a Rogue/Wizard PrCs.
I believe I mentioned this. Actuall, I can add one more to the list: Assassin.

While shadow dancer is a Rogue Prcs that takes away the rogue's best way of dealing damage in favor of a few questionably useful way to defend themselves and some cool fluff. (ex: 9 levels(15th odd level) into the Prcs you can control a 6HD shadow that is gone for a month if it is killed of dismised, great...)
And requires 3 horrible feats and a wasted skill. Oh, and everything of value is in the first 1-2 levels.

[erikun]

I have had of these guys work out well in a game I ran once. Though it was gestalt...
Yeah, that makes a big difference. I'd think the AA would work well with half caster progression, possibly allowing it to add weapon enchantments for free. Yes, you're weaker from giving up caster levels, but you're still shooting fireballs with a longbow. :smalltongue:


Blackguard and Holy Liberator. Because "Wtf, I can't just be one from 1st level?!"
This. Definitely this. I would add Ur-Priest to the list, for same reasons and more.

[kentma57]

I believe I mentioned this. Actuall, I can add one more to the list: Assassin.

I know I just took forever to finnish typing, I left Assassin out because at least it gives full sneak attack, poison use, improved uncanny dodge, hide in plain sight and spells.
It's more like a cool way to multi-class the an actual PrCs.
At worst death attack need word and at best it is meant for more subtle in character role playing groups.

[Tavar]

Unseen seer and Assassin are the decent rogue PrC's though. I can't think of any others that really give anything special.

[Rixx]

What disgusts me is 3.5's saturation of extremely narrow (thematically) and poorly thought out (mechanically) prestige classes. Every book came with a huge chunk of prestige classes, when what I would have liked would've been more flexible base classes and class options, with some prestige classes that had a slightly narrowed focus (but not stupidly narrowed).

[nekomata2]

Yeah, that makes a big difference. I'd think the AA would work well with half caster progression, possibly allowing it to add weapon enchantments for free. Yes, you're weaker from giving up caster levels, but you're still shooting fireballs with a longbow. :smalltongue:


Pathfinder's AA (http://http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.html#arcane-archer) gets 7/10, the Arrow of Death scales (with Cha)...

[Boci]

Unseen seer and Assassin are the decent rogue PrC's though. I can't think of any others that really give anything special.

Invisible blade? Nightsong enforcer? Dagger spell mage (same reason as unseen seer though for the last one)

[Gorgondantess]

Blackguard and Holy Liberator. Because "Wtf, I can't just be one from 1st level?!" That actually goes for quite a few PrCs, but PrCs that make you jump through hoops just to get around a base class' alignment restriction are extra revolting.

That's what the UA paladin variants are for.:smallwink:


Unseen seer and Assassin are the decent rogue PrC's though. I can't think of any others that really give anything special.
Hmmm...
Well, there's one gem in CSco: Master of Masks. Pretty much, you buy the book for that, and maybe for the feats. Oh, wait, you can get Master of Masks off the wizards website...:smallsigh:

[Tavar]

Well, there's one gem in CSco: Master of Masks. Pretty much, you buy the book for that, and maybe for the feats. Oh, wait, you can get Master of Masks off the wizards website...:smallsigh:
I've looked at that, and it seems decent for a 1-2 level dip, but I can't see any reason to take it more than that.

That does remind me of Avenging Executioner, though. I think that ones decent.


Invisible blade?
Horrible prerequisites, plus feinting still only works on your first attack in a round.

Nightsong enforcer?
Actually not bad.

Dagger spell mage
Kills your skills, and BaB. For a class that's supposed to be in melee twf, that's just....:smallconfused:

[Mongoose87]

This. Definitely this. I would add Ur-Priest to the list, for same reasons and more.

Wouldn't a refluffed Cleric do that for you?

[9mm]

Reaping mauler... poor, poor melee.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

[QUOTE=kentma57;7456952]
In its defence it does have a few drawbacks but they realy don't make a scratch in the fact that at 10th level you could get 4 6th level spells instead of 3 5th level spells...

Tell that to the Dragonwrought Loredrake Sorcerer; at level 10, it's casting 8th level spells.

That aside, Spellwarp Sniper's pretty evil... the lost caster level may hurt, but Wings of Flurry without a save?

[erikun]

Wouldn't a refluffed Cleric do that for you?
Exactly. A 20-level, variant Cleric with special rules for allowing "fallen" Cleric to swap levels into Ur-Priest (much how a Blackguard works) would have been ideal. Instead, we have Clerics of Pelor taking ranks in Bluff and Spell Focus (Evil) in hopes of leaving the church and becoming evil... in order to qualify for the prestige class.

[Tavar]

That aside, Spellwarp Sniper's pretty evil... the lost caster level may hurt, but Wings of Flurry without a save?
One spell from a completely different supplement does not a poorly designed class make.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

There's others, but that's the most obvious one...

[Boci]

There's others, but that's the most obvious one...

Isn't there a spell that makes you immune to rays in the SpC though? I hate that spell, rays are awesome.

[Geddoe]

Unseen seer and Assassin are the decent rogue PrC's though. I can't think of any others that really give anything special.

Teflammar Shadowlord? And Ninja Spy if you update it, but it gives decent SA, so it doesn't really count.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Exactly. A 20-level, variant Cleric with special rules for allowing "fallen" Cleric to swap levels into Ur-Priest (much how a Blackguard works) would have been ideal. Instead, we have Clerics of Pelor taking ranks in Bluff and Spell Focus (Evil) in hopes of leaving the church and becoming evil... in order to qualify for the prestige class.

How is that an "instead"? Right now with the way Blackguard works you have paladins taking ranks in hide and Improved Sunder in hopes of leaving the church and becoming evil... in order to qualify for the prestige class. That sort of thing doesn't happen with Ur-Priest, because those sort of dead levels are barely ahead of the Expert as far as power goes. If you changed it to work like the Blackguard, you would indeed have pelorites doing things like that.

D'oh, wait, only now I see the "20-level" part. But still, Blackguard is a poor analogy.

Disgusting PrCs: Planar Shepherd, Cancer Mage, Dweomerkeeper, Tainted Scholar, Hulking Hurler, Incantatrix. All the textbook broken cases. I'd list the really sucky ones too, but there are too many of them, and trap rather few people anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

How is that an "instead"? Right now with the way Blackguard works you have paladins taking ranks in hide and Improved Sunder in hopes of leaving the church and becoming evil... in order to qualify for the prestige class. That sort of thing doesn't happen with Ur-Priest, because those sort of dead levels are barely ahead of the Expert as far as power goes. If you changed it to work like the Blackguard, you would indeed have pelorites doing things like that.


Yeah, a Paladin has to plan for falling to qualify. Sunder?
It should have been Feats: power attack, cleave, mounted combat (that is at least useful for a Paly).
Religion make sense, but not Hide. Maybe Concentration 5?

[Tavar]

Better yet, make it something like this
Prerequisites:
xxx
OR
Special: be a fallen Paladin who made friendly contact with an outsider.

[Boci]

Special: be a fallen Paladin who made friendly contact with an outsider, who does not have access to unearthed arcane.

Fixed it for you.

[Tavar]

Fixed it for you.

How does that fix it? It still only allows them to multiclass, so their abilities are pretty crappy.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Special: be a fallen Paladin who made friendly contact with an outsider, who does not have access to unearthed arcana

Fixed it for you.

Fixed it for you. :P

But more seriously, the Blackguard is significantly better than the UA Paladins - notably because the Blackguard cannot fall. Blackguard decides to be nice and give a sack of gold to the orphan, for no particular reason? He's still evil for all that murder he's going around doing, and still has his powers. Paladin of Tyranny does the same thing? He falls, and cannot kill people as effectively, and fails.

[Rappy]

Survivor.

"Congratulations, your Commoner is now a slightly stronger Commoner! You should be so proud of yourself."

Ugh... :smallyuk:

Also, seconded on Green Star Adept. Good idea, bad execution.

[Mystic Muse]

O_o when did the yellow menace join our forum?

[erikun]

How is that an "instead"?
Yeah, I mean that Ur-Priest, Blackguard, and Holy Liberator should have all been 20 level classes on their own, with special rules to allow fallen Clerics/Paladins swap their class levels in the change.

I used the term "much how a Blackguard works" because the Blackguard PrC is the only class I know about which allows you to exchange levels in one class with another.

[Foryn Gilnith]

That would be interesting, particularly with the Holy Liberator part. Traditionally, good is unified while evil squabbles over law/chaos (Blood War), but if there's only one "evil exemplar" class to two "good exemplar" classes...

Also, the Ronin (CWar IIRC) and the Athar (Planar Handbook) allow switching-in, if it matters.

[SurlySeraph]

Incantatrix. Minimal fluff, blatantly overpowered, and the abilities doesn't even match what little fluff there is.

Planar Shepherd, of course. I like the concept, but everyone knows how egregiously broken it is.

Slayer of Domiel. It's a holy assassin! It could be so awesome! Except it has excessive prereqs and is in some ways worse than going straight Rogue. It's main feature is a death touch, which should be awesome and flavorful, except that it using it is a worse option than just sneak attacking in every situation.

[gorfnab]

Yeah, I mean that Ur-Priest, Blackguard, and Holy Liberator should have all been 20 level classes on their own, with special rules to allow fallen Clerics/Paladins swap their class levels in the change.

I used the term "much how a Blackguard works" because the Blackguard PrC is the only class I know about which allows you to exchange levels in one class with another.
Defiant prestige class in Planar Handbook is a fallen cleric prestige class that lets you exchange levels of cleric for levels of Defiant like a Paladin does with Blackguard.

Anyways Hierophant bothers me in that is does not advance divine spellcasting yet requires you to be able to cast 7th level spells.

[Realms of Chaos]

The one that disgusts me above all others is definitely The Defiant, from the Planar Handbook.

First, there really isn't any reason for this class to exist. As far as I can tell, the class is there (as are the other PrCs in the Planar Handbook) for the point of showing off an organization. The Defiant represents and organization that is antitheistic. As far as I can figure, the entire reason for the class is to make people notice the organization and the entire point of the organization is to prove that antitheism and even atheism of a sort can exist in a DnD game. The problem is, that is the only point of the organization. It isn't described as being particularly friendly or unfriendly. Mostly, it's just there. As such, you will likely never fight against or alongside a Defiant, even in games where they exist. They will provide you with sage-like information, belittle the party's cleric, and occasionally shake the foundations of the multiverse by discovering the true nature of all divine power (a great plot twist). They aren't often going to be fighting (unless you make them start an atheistic anti-crusade) which makes one wonder... WHY DID THEY MAKE THE CLASS? They could've just stated that the Athar was run by wizards and it would've been more powerful. Hell, it would be more powerful and make more sense if monks ran it, MONKS!

Secondly, I hate this class on a mechanical level. We get a very very very narrow focus for a nine level class. The problem is, it really isn't that good at anything. It hampers divine spellcasting a bit but that's all. It's like having a caster who can't use their spell slots for anything other than counterspelling. The sad thing is that Divine Denial from Exemplars of Evil is probably more useful than any of the class features that this guy gets. Once again, both wizards and monks would've made far more sense on a mechanical and flavorful level (wizards are the arcane answer to clerics and monks are considered the antimage class, even if they are bad at it).

Third, and finally, I hate the wasted potential. I'm not saying that this class could be good. Any class based solely at beating up a small handful of creatures cannot possibly be good in the long run. What I hate is the passage for fallen Clerics. If a cleric falls and becomes a Defiant, they can trade in levels. Not only that, but they can trade in all of their levels. It is possible to be a Human Defiant 9 with levels in no other class. This is in addition to extra abilities you gain if you choose not to trade in your class levels.

THIS IS THE ONLY TIME THAT THIS HAS EVER HAPPENED! EVER!

Seriously, no other "fallen" prestige class has ever used this strategy and the single one that does... stinks. This makes me mad. I HATE THE DEFIANT!!!
[/rant]

[Leon]

Good idea, bad execution.

Its a WotC trend

[AllisterH]

And another reason why I loved ToB.

It actually had DECENT to great PrC. Usually, in a book, 1/2 the PrC are pure garbage, another 1/4 are seriously overpowered and only the remaining 1/4 is decent but with ToB, only the Shadow Sun Ninja is on the weak side (and even there, it is still better than most Monk and Rogue PrC you could find) while only the RKV was broken (and that was mainly due to Nightstick abuse)

[KnightOrc]

No Frenzied Berserker? Really?

ninjaedit: Nevermind, Tequila Sunrise already mentioned it.

[Cyclocone]

Thrallherd. Kinda like a Druid, but with two free Wizards instead of a free Fighter...

Whatever. If you have a Beholder Mage, I have a Beholder Mage -and an Illithid Savant.

[Duke of URL]

Thrallherd. Kinda like a Druid, but with two free Wizards instead of a free Fighter...

Whatever. If you have a Beholder Mage, I have a Beholder Mage -and an Illithid Savant.

Yeah, but you have to give up to manifester levels to get it. Wanna run the math on a 17th level pure caster/manifester with a 16th level cohort vs. manifester level 15 plus a 16th and a 15th level cohort?

The 16th level cohorts balance out. Do two 15th level casters/manifesters beat one 17th level caster/manifester?

@OP -- From a design standpoint, any PrC that is patently better than staying in the qualifying base class disgusts me. This is pretty much any PrC that grants +1 caster level at all levels for Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards, as these classes have no (or no appreciable) class features after level 1.

"Broken bad" PrCs don't disgust me as much as they make me sad. But they're easier to fix, at least.

[Optimystik]

Hmmm...
Well, there's one gem in CSco: Master of Masks. Pretty much, you buy the book for that, and maybe for the feats. Oh, wait, you can get Master of Masks off the wizards website...:smallsigh:

I take it you haven't actually read the Malconvoker or Uncanny Trickster then?


This. Definitely this. I would add Ur-Priest to the list, for same reasons and more.

I agree that the alignment restriction on UP is foolish - at least Blighter makes a modicum of sense alignment-wise, even though nothing else about it does - but I am glad for the existence of accelerated-progression casting PrCs, as they make theurgy desirable.

[Eldariel]

And another reason why I loved ToB.

It actually had DECENT to great PrC. Usually, in a book, 1/2 the PrC are pure garbage, another 1/4 are seriously overpowered and only the remaining 1/4 is decent but with ToB, only the Shadow Sun Ninja is on the weak side (and even there, it is still better than most Monk and Rogue PrC you could find) while only the RKV was broken (and that was mainly due to Nightstick abuse)

SSN is fine; sure, the school access is limited, but they get lots of maneuvers and their class features are actually quite strong when worked on. Of course, it has the trouble of being very "weird"; the varying damage types, cap on levels you may drain and so on mean they require much more planning than your average PRC, but "weak" is definitely not the word I'd use on 'em.


And I found CScoundrel awesome; there's Gray Guard too and there are skill tricks and nice equipment and spells. Loved the book throughout. It's usually the third book I suggest for buying after ToB and SC.

[Cyclocone]

Yeah, but you have to give up to manifester levels to get it. Wanna run the math on a 17th level pure caster/manifester with a 16th level cohort vs. manifester level 15 plus a 16th and a 15th level cohort?

For the sake of argument I could make it an Ardent/Thrallherd with Practiced Manifester, sporting a couple of Ur-Priest Thralls, but that's neither here nor there.

Rather, the issue is with the Thrallherd out-breaking other peoples brokenness.
He could go kobold for early 9s and still have a Hulking Hurler on the side; bringing multiple flavors of cheese to the table. Or he could just have Warblades feeding him White Raven Tactics. Or use it to reign in a couple of Tainted Scholars. Or just Artificers.

My point is, Thrallherd is leadership crap, but worse. That is why it disgusts me.
Even if you don't use it to run multiple kinds of brokenness simultaneously or to do stuff that synergizes far too well; it's still one player taking turns for 3 characters, while the other players play SSB.

[dsmiles]

Survivor.

"Congratulations, your Commoner is now a slightly stronger Commoner! You should be so proud of yourself."

Ugh... :smallyuk:

Also, seconded on Green Star Adept. Good idea, bad execution.

I actually like the Survivor PrC. But then again I'm a fluff over crunch player. I DM fluff over crunch, too.

And before anybody turns this into a roll-player versus role-player debate, the people I game with all game this way, and we enjoy gaming this way. :smalltongue: That's not where I was going with this.

As far as I'm concerned, all of the PrCs have some sort of merit in most campaign worlds, but as far as the ones that disgust me, I have to go with the Greenstar Adept, and the (I can't remember the name) Vow of Peace/Vow of Nonviolence/Pacifist Sissy guy from the BoED.

[hamishspence]

The Apostle of Peace made it into 4th ed.

With most of the annoying things jettisoned- now it's

"try and resolve things non-violently- if your opponent is beyond reason, bash it"

Plus a "take prisoners if practical, but not otherwise"

I don't think it has alignment restrictions. If DM allows evil characters, you could have an evil apostle of peace.

[deuxhero]

Blackguard and Holy Liberator. Because "Wtf, I can't just be one from 1st level?!" That actually goes for quite a few PrCs, but PrCs that make you jump through hoops just to get around a base class' alignment restriction are extra revolting.


Blackguard disqusted me for it's hide requirment to enter. Intimidate would have fit the class and it is a class skill for the logical entrys. Instead they went for hide, a class skill that conflicts with the classes actual abilities.

[Ecalsneerg]

@OP -- From a design standpoint, any PrC that is patently better than staying in the qualifying base class disgusts me. This is pretty much any PrC that grants +1 caster level at all levels for Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards, as these classes have no (or no appreciable) class features after level 1.

I share a similar opinion, only I don't dislike the PrCs, but rather the featureless base classes. (For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume players won't go 'weeee' at one more spell slot for a spell level they can cast. Extra spells known are good)

Wizards, at least you get bonus feats, and two free spells known per level.

Sorcerers... yeah, you get spells known. But wizards get bonus feats, maybe throw some on him? I do like Pathfinder's bloodlines idea.

Clerics... oh god, every second level all you get is skills, saves, BAB and more spells/day of spells you can cast anyway. I'm not saying skills, saves, slots and BAB aren't attractive. They're just not interesting.

[Optimystik]

And I found CScoundrel awesome; there's Gray Guard too and there are skill tricks and nice equipment and spells. Loved the book throughout. It's usually the third book I suggest for buying after ToB and SC.

Ah, I forgot Gray Guard also - all the fun of paladin without the rectum-stick. Also Spellwarp Sniper.

Yes, I'd say it's the best non-casting-focused Complete out there.



THIS IS THE ONLY TIME THAT THIS HAS EVER HAPPENED! EVER!

Seriously, no other "fallen" prestige class has ever used this strategy and the single one that does... stinks. This makes me mad. I HATE THE DEFIANT!!!
[/rant]

I get the feeling you don't like Defiants :smalltongue:

From my standpoint, I have a mixed reaction to the fluff. They at least seem aware of the incongruity of atheism in a clearly theistic setting, but their approach is still very bull-headed. You're absolutely right, this class would make much more sense for a monk (crunch- and fluff-wise), perhaps even with Athar SR and self-healing stacking with the monk's own abilities, and advancing IUS progression.

They also make sense for Ardents, especially the whole "living on the Astral Plane" bit. (How do they get there without spells? Not all of them are ex-clerics.)

The main problem I can see with the Athar is that their "gods are a sham!!11!" schtick has been done, and done far better, by the Ur-Priest. Ironically, an Ur-Priest could demolish an Athar of equal level one-on-one - Defiant powers are geared towards defending against divine blasting, but Ur-Priests have even more options than regular clerics do.

The Ur-Priest's does have one fluff deficiency - the alignment restriction. Why can't they be neutral? It would make perfect sense.


The Apostle of Peace made it into 4th ed.

With most of the annoying things jettisoned- now it's

"try and resolve things non-violently- if your opponent is beyond reason, bash it"

Plus a "take prisoners if practical, but not otherwise"

I don't think it has alignment restrictions. If DM allows evil characters, you could have an evil apostle of peace.

Wow. I suddenly have an urge to play 4e. An Evil Apostle of Peace? Maybe like Kaname Tosen from Bleach :smallbiggrin:

[oxybe]

ninja of the crescent moon, pre errata qualify?

good BAB, all good saves, monk-like armor bonuses, sneak attack, Improved Evasion, kuji-kiri, poison use, AC bonus, fast climb, silencing attack, fast sneak, invisibility, opportunist, gaseous form, blindsight, always sneaky, ethereal jaunt.

among other things.

[dsmiles]

The Apostle of Peace made it into 4th ed.

With most of the annoying things jettisoned- now it's

"try and resolve things non-violently- if your opponent is beyond reason, bash it"

Plus a "take prisoners if practical, but not otherwise"

I don't think it has alignment restrictions. If DM allows evil characters, you could have an evil apostle of peace.

GAAAAAHHH!!!
*massive coronary*

[hamishspence]

There can be some pretty unusual combinations.

A 4E cleric apostle of peace who worships Bane and has the War domain (from Divine Power) is certainly possible- even if they might come across as a little odd.

"He makes war on war" so to speak.

[Optimystik]

ninja of the crescent moon, pre errata qualify?

What book is that from? OA?


GAAAAAHHH!!!
*massive coronary*

Oh hush. It's cool and you know it. :smalltongue:

Well, maybe not the War domain bit.

[SaintRidley]

The Apostle of Peace made it into 4th ed.

With most of the annoying things jettisoned- now it's

"try and resolve things non-violently- if your opponent is beyond reason, bash it"

Plus a "take prisoners if practical, but not otherwise"

I don't think it has alignment restrictions. If DM allows evil characters, you could have an evil apostle of peace.

which book did that happen in?

[deuxhero]

Wizards, at least you get bonus feats, and two free spells known per level.


Wait, Wizards lose that when they PRC?

[Optimystik]

Wait, Wizards lose that when they PRC?

The bonus feats, yes. But so many PrCs grant free feats that it doesn't matter in the end. (For example, Master Specialist gives Spell Focus and GSF for free, Thaumaturgist gives Augment Summoning for free, Malconvoker gives Extend Spell and Twin Spell for free...)

[oxybe]

NotCM: sword & fist, essentially the 3.0 version of "Complete Warrior".

[hamishspence]

which book did that happen in?

Divine Power.

Divine Power also provided "domains" for clerics of deities- Sun, War, Tyranny, etc.

[dsmiles]

What book is that from? OA?

Song and Silence or Sword and Fist originally. 3e.

EDIT: Dern ninjas. GET OFF MY LAWN!!! Kids these days with their ninja-ing and hippity-hop music...

[Duke of URL]

Wait, Wizards lose that when they PRC?

It can be argued pretty convincingly either way. The bonus spells at each level are clearly a wizard class feature, which wouldn't be advanced by PrC levels.

However, PrCs that grant +1 spellcasting typically include something to the effect of "and spells known, if applicable". While that phrase was clearly added for the purposes of spontaneous casters with a known spells list, a legitimate RAW argument can be made that the wizard's two spells per level qualify as "spells known".

The counter-argument is that this is, at best, ambiguous, and that RAI leans toward the phrase being there for sorcerers, not wizards.

[oxybe]

Lulz. i ninja'd bout a ninja.

as for evil apostle of peace, evil!=warmonger. note in eberron one of the biggest proponents for the treaty of thronehold (if memory serves) is King Kaius the evil vampire in charge of an undead army.

this guy:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/2/29/King_Kaius.jpg

[OMG PONIES]

The Fortune's Friend. My god how I loved that character, but he practically doubled the duration of each combat. Great concept, frustrating to play.

[Telonius]

Wait, Wizards lose that when they PRC?

There is some debate about that. Look at the wording of the PrC text closely.

"When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level."

And from the Wizard description...

"Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells."

"At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook."

Some DMs interpret that to mean that Wizards don't actually have a list of spells known - since they can potentially know all of them. The bonus of two spells for the spellbook would therefore be tied specifically to Wizard levels. Since there is no PrC text in all of D&D that says it grants the bonus Wizard spells, an Archmage (or any other PrC that advances casting) wouldn't get the extra two per level; he has to buy (or pay to research) all his new spells.

Other DMs think that's a load of baloney and rule that the spellbook is the list of the Wizard's spells known. The reasoning is that if the book doesn't contain the spell, it's not available to the Wizard for casting. ("Read Magic" being the exception).

[hamishspence]

as for evil apostle of peace, evil!=warmonger. note in eberron one of the biggest proponents for the treaty of thronehold (if memory serves) is King Kaius the evil vampire in charge of an undead army.


True- I was thinking about the fact that its possible to combine peace abilities and War abilities on the same guy in 4th ed.

[dsmiles]

Some DMs interpret that to mean that Wizards don't actually have a list of spells known - since they can potentially know all of them. The bonus of two spells for the spellbook would therefore be tied specifically to Wizard levels. Since there is no PrC text in all of D&D that says it grants the bonus Wizard spells, an Archmage (or any other PrC that advances casting) wouldn't get the extra two per level; he has to buy (or pay to research) all his new spells.

Ooo! Ooo!, That's me!

[Kris Strife]

GAAAAAHHH!!!
*massive coronary*

This is what happened because everyone kept complaining about the alignment system... :smallsigh:

On another note, what book is Survivor in?

[Tyndmyr]

And from the Wizard description...

"Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells."

Other DMs rule that the spellbook is the list of the Wizard's spells known. The reasoning is that if the book doesn't contain the spell, it's not available to the Wizard for casting. ("Read Magic" being the exception).

That's how I've always read it. Spells written in your spellbook are spells known as far as the wizard is concerned.

Honestly though, it wouldn't make a significant power difference either way. Its just a bit of WBL, generally.

[dsmiles]

On another note, what book is Survivor in?

Savage Species

EDIT: I play 4e and still use the 9-point alignment system...heehee! :smallbiggrin:

[warmachine]

Radiant Servant of Pelor. Yes, I know it's not particularly broken but it disgusts me that neither the author or the editor saw that it's unbalanced compared to a core Cleric, which is obvious just by looking at it. Even the illustration doesn't make sense from the class powers. It's as if WotC don't even care about game balance or integrity.

[hamishspence]

I've double-checked and the name for the 4E Apostle of Peace-type cleric paragon path is Messenger of Peace.

Still the same principle- nonviolence as an ideal.

[Roderick_BR]

Anything that gives full progression AND a lot of strong special abilities. Why ever play a single class caster? Not so bad for druid and bard that actually gains other things aside spellcasting, so they are just exchanging their usual class features for new ones, that are what PrCs are about. But wizards give up what? 2, 3 metamagic/item creation feats, and familiar progression (boo-hoo). Sorcerers lose almost nothing either. And clerics, that don't need to advance their turning undead level to use divine metamagic cheese.

[Arakune]

Anything that gives full progression AND a lot of strong special abilities. Why ever play a single class caster? Not so bad for druid and bard that actually gains other things aside spellcasting...

There is a problem with your example :smallwink: