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Ceaon
2009-12-08, 04:29 AM
Hey everyone! I'm currently preparing a character for a campaign, and I had this awesome idea to play the Grim Reaper. I'm writing something on how the Raven Queen replaced him with his brother (as in, the brothers Grim :smallbiggrin:) and how he now he walks the earth without purpose (until he meets the party).

But now I come to the difficult part: how can I represent him in 4E mechanics? I'd very much like him to wield a scythe, of course, and well, you all know what the Grim Reaper looks like and what he can do, and I'd like to stay close to that.

I'd rather build him in what our group considers 'core': PH+PH2. I have, however, taken a look at the revenants and there is something there... But I'm very willing to just refluff a race and class to match, as long as the mechanics of that race and class are able to represent Grim and as long as my character is effective enough.

I'm having a hard time with this however, so I'd really appreciate some Playground input. We're starting at level 8, and I want to plan ahead until paragon tier (that's three levels, for those of you who don't play 4E).

So, in short... Grim Reaper, level 8. 4E. Preferably PH+PH2 only. What race? What class? Which paragon path? Any thoughts on equipment?

Of course, when I finish the build, I'll edit this post and show it to you all!

erikun
2009-12-08, 04:48 AM
Shadar-Kai seems the most appropriate, although they feel a bit like the Eladrin's little brother. Drow also come to mind, for obvious reasons. Beyond that, just about anything will work. Dwarves are hard to kill, Kobolds are shifty and highly mobile, and Longtooth Shifters have regeneration. Deva are thematically appropriate.

The two classes which come to mind are Assassin (DDI-only) and Dark-pack Warlock (Faerun). They probably fit best with the Shadar-Kai and Drow. Clerics and Invokers will also work, especially if you can convince your DM to swap all their radiant powers into necrotic. Paladin can work too, for same reasons, as will a Vestige-pact Warlock (Arcane Power). The Shadar-Kai has a feat which allows them to choose cold or necrotic for the Sorcerer's Wild Soul ability, if you want to go that route.

Outside of that? Pretty much anything can work. You're Death, and if you feel like being an Elven Self-Forged Artificer, they aren't going to stop you.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 04:52 AM
But now I come to the difficult part: how can I represent him in 4E mechanics? I'd very much like him to wield a scythe, of course, and well, you all know what the Grim Reaper looks like and what he can do, and I'd like to stay close to that.
...er, harvest souls and send them to the afterlife? Employ co-location and effective omniscience? Be an unstoppable force of nature? I don't see how you can do any of that in 4E, or indeed in most RPGs.

Death Itself is one of the most powerful forces in the multiverse; a level-30 character pales in comparison, not to mention a level-8. So what kind of "reaper" did you have in mind exactly, and what powers would you like? Because you're not going to be able to play one of The Endless (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSandman) in 4E, nor the Reaper Man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscWorld).

Night Monkey
2009-12-08, 05:46 AM
Hang out with a newspaper owner and seduce his daughter. No wait...

The first class that came to mind was Avenger, albeit replacing its radiant attacks with necrotic, somehow replacing Rebuke Undead with something else. Definitely take stuff like Oath of the Relentless Hunter, probably Oath of Pursuit. Shadar-Kai works well here with its Dex bonus. Obviously you won't be able to fully represent the abilities of Death Itself, although this may be explained by his abilities being nerfed by not actually acting as Death Itself right at the moment.

greenknight
2009-12-08, 05:53 AM
Avenger seems like the best choice to play Death, but Deva Shaman seems great if you want to summon him. Thematically, you can Speak with Spirits, and even re-flavour Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes. Go with Stalker Spirit to send enemies to their deaths even sooner.

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 06:58 AM
Thanks for your advice, all! I like the Deva; I hadn't considered refluffing them to Death this way. Shadar-Kai could work too, but I can only use the MM version... Avenger and Shaman seem the most sensible classes for a Deva. I haven't tried either of these classes, and they're not classes I would usually pick, but I'm willing to see if they can work for me.

Would anyone know of a fun Deva (or Shadar-Kai) Avenger build that could really represent Death (I really don't like the Avenger paragon paths - and from what I've gathered, Avengers are a bit underpowered if you don't use Divine Power)?

Or: Would anyone know of a spirit that Death would summon (for a Shaman build)? I don't like summoning Death itself, but Death summoning something could work, maybe.
Quick question, though: Can you hold a scythe in one hand and a totem in another, provided you don't attack with the scythe?


So what kind of "reaper" did you have in mind exactly, and what powers would you like? Because you're not going to be able to play one of The Endless (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSandman) in 4E, nor the Reaper Man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscWorld).

I'm seeing him as being mostly stripped of his powers, but maintaining the same style he used to have. He's looking to reclaim is position as the real Grim Reaper.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 07:08 AM
Quick question, though: Can you hold a scythe in one hand and a totem in another, provided you don't attack with the scythe?
Yes.


I'm seeing him as being mostly stripped of his powers, but maintaining the same style he used to have.
Ok, but you've still not told us what kind of powers you actually want for your character.

I do recommend revenant as a race; it is both fitting and cool.

If you want to summon stuff, play a druid. Shamans are healers, which doesn't seem to fit the role much. Avengers pick a target and then kill it until it dies from death, but then so does every other striker. I think a warlock or assassin would be a much better fit thematically; or you could simply play a fighter with a scythe, and kill stuff that way. Fighters are pretty powerful.

Jayabalard
2009-12-08, 07:27 AM
I'm seeing him as being mostly stripped of his powers, but maintaining the same style he used to have. He's looking to reclaim is position as the real Grim Reaper.Ah, so you want to play Bill Door.

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 07:33 AM
Ok, but you've still not told us what kind of powers you actually want for your character. (...) I do recommend revenant as a race; it is both fitting and cool. (...) I think a warlock or assassin would be a much better fit thematically.

I'm sorry if I'm being vague, I just want to leave my options open for the moment.
But yeah, Death would probably be a striker or a controller, so I'm looking for powers that damage and/or disable targets.
I like your suggestions, a revenant warlock could maybe work, and as for a revenant assassin, that's a matched race/class, right? That could work too...

However, I'm looking for a build that will really help my party, even though that's not a task you would normally think of when you think of Death. I;m not necessarily looking for a leader, just for a character that won't depend on others too much but on whom other can depend. For instance, the ranger has a few "give enemy attack penalties" powers, and a defender can mark.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 07:40 AM
But yeah, Death would probably be a striker or a controller, so I'm looking for powers that damage and/or disable targets.
To further muddle the issue, the best character to disable targets is a stunlock wizard, starting with the excellent first-level spell, Sleep.

Overall, I would suggest warlock. You are pretty self-sufficient, have enough control that the party can depend on you, give numerous penalties to your enemies, and have a fitting theme. And you get to use a sickle (small scythe) as a Pact Blade.

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 07:46 AM
Sounds a lot like the plot from Reaper Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaper_Man) a book by Terry Pratchett.

I would go with Human Swordmage, but Swordmage is from Forgotten Realms. If you are sticking to justPHB 1 and 2 I would say Avenger.

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 07:52 AM
Sounds a lot like the plot from Reaper Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaper_Man) a book by Terry Pratchett.

Sounds like I should read that, then.

Kurald, I'm grateful for your opinion, and maybe a warlock could work. If you have more ideas (I'm looking for a PP I can build up to), please share :smallbiggrin:.

Otherwise, I'll probably choose the Avenger class. But what Paragon Path would Death take?

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 08:02 AM
First off Kurald Galain idea about a warlock could work well. You could go star pact and say his powers are kind of left over from when he was death and as he levels up is him getting them back.


Sounds like I should read that, then.

Kurald, I'm grateful for your opinion, and maybe a warlock could work. If you have more ideas (I'm looking for a PP I can build up to), please share :smallbiggrin:.

Otherwise, I'll probably choose the Avenger class. But what Paragon Path would Death take?

its a very good book, Death more or less gets fired and a new death takes over. There is a lot of other stuff that goes on but I do not want to spoile any thing.

well the PP is a harder call, give me a little bit of time to look something up.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 08:06 AM
But what Paragon Path would Death take?

Doomsayer, of course. It makes everybody afraid of you, big time. And who isn't afraid of death?

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 08:09 AM
Doomsayer, of course. It makes everybody afraid of you, big time. And who isn't afraid of death?


That was the first one that jumped out at me too.

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 08:25 AM
Okay, great! A Warlock/Doomsayer could very much work.
One question, though... Is there any way I could make him use his scythe every once in a while, or will it be just for show? (But, now that we've gotten this far without going outside of PH+PH2, I'd really like it to stay that way.)

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 08:35 AM
Okay, great! A Warlock/Doomsayer could very much work.
One question, though... Is there any way I could make him use his scythe every once in a while, or will it be just for show? (But, now that we've gotten this far without going outside of PH+PH2, I'd really like it to stay that way.)


You can replace eldritch blast with eldritch strike. But for the most part it will be for show. But if you make it a pact blade I guess you could fluff if that you channel you powers throgh it like grim from "grim adventures of billy and mandy"

Starsinger
2009-12-08, 08:38 AM
Ask your DM if you can ignore the line "Must Worship the Raven Queen", since you're going for Death itself.

Invoker, covenant of Wrath ideally. Grab as many radiant powers as possible, then grab Blightspeaker or Soul Reaper (Dragon 380) for a PP. Come epic tier grab the Avatar of Death epic destiny and the Echoes of Latherna feat (Dragon 380). Echoes of Latherna makes you deal necrotic and radiant damage with radiant powers.

Some of you might say, "But Starsinger, I don't understand Radiant damage is not something Death would do, Radiant damage is shiny and full of light and stuff! Death should have more dark and angsty damage types like Necrotic or Poison!" To which my reply is "Eh." First of all, Radiant damage is very rarely resisted, second of all it deals with pesky undead, and Death does not like those that cheat him (or her).

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 08:41 AM
You can replace eldritch blast with eldritch strike. But for the most part it will be for show. But if you make it a pact blade I guess you could fluff if that you channel you powers throgh it like grim from "grim adventures of billy and mandy"
Unfortunately, a pact blade is light blade only.

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 08:45 AM
Unfortunately, a pact blade is light blade only.


Sorry I was thinking of a sickle not a scythe. IIRC there is a pact sword and hammer in AV, and since it fits your guys background it would not hurt to ask you DM if you could have a pact scythe. I do not think it would be game braking.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 08:46 AM
Is there any way I could make him use his scythe every once in a while,

Yes, there is. A feat from (iirc) Arcane Power lets you pick any one implement for another arcane class, and use it for yours. Warlock is an arcane class; the scythe is a heavy blade and therefore a swordmage implement; thus with this feat, Warlocks can cast any and all powers they use through a scythe.

(this has the added bonus that you can use a magic scythe with a useful property, instead of the mediocre pact blade).

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-08, 08:49 AM
Yes, there is. A feat from (iirc) Arcane Power lets you pick any one implement for another arcane class, and use it for yours. Warlock is an arcane class; the scythe is a heavy blade and therefore a swordmage implement; thus with this feat, Warlocks can cast any and all powers they use through a scythe.

(this has the added bonus that you can use a magic scythe with a useful property, instead of the mediocre pact blade).

^This is better that what I came up with.^

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 08:49 AM
Ask your DM if you can ignore the line "Must Worship the Raven Queen", since you're going for Death itself.
This line can be found... where?
Edit: you mean the revenant, I guess. Still not sure if I'm playing on of those. The Deva could also work and is from the PH2, so...



Invoker, covenant of Wrath ideally. (...)

This could also work.

However, the biggest problem I see now is that there are no good ways of using my scythe for most of the (otherwise excellent) suggestions you've been giving me. Is there anyone with an idea how to implement (excuse the pun) a scythe? Again, please PH+PH2 only.

Edit: still, thanks for the AP suggestion. Wow, ninja'd in my own thread!

Khanderas
2009-12-08, 09:31 AM
Unfortunately, a pact blade is light blade only.
Death only playes by the rules when it feels like it.

kestrel404
2009-12-08, 11:06 AM
Well, I was going to suggest some form of necrotic-souled Gensai, but the Deva idea is perfect IMO.

As for what class, there are several that are good, but I would lean heavily towards Avenger - the fluff is already perfect. I mean, if you're death, then you're MO has always been to hunt down a single individual until they are no more, then go after the next one. Granted, it used to be an instantaneous thing, but whenever someone challenged you on it, you would concentrate your full attention on them until they were no more (the standard 'game challenge' against death, except that it would happen in an instant no matter how long the game would take - and you never 'missed/lost' against them).

chiasaur11
2009-12-08, 11:12 AM
Sounds like I should read that, then.


Definitely. It's a book with the Grim Reaper as the lovable protagonist. It works. And it's Pratchett, and he's one of the best authors alive, so it's guaranteed awesome.

Starsinger
2009-12-08, 11:18 AM
This line can be found... where?
Edit: you mean the revenant, I guess. Still not sure if I'm playing on of those. The Deva could also work and is from the PH2, so...



This could also work.

However, the biggest problem I see now is that there are no good ways of using my scythe for most of the (otherwise excellent) suggestions you've been giving me. Is there anyone with an idea how to implement (excuse the pun) a scythe? Again, please PH+PH2 only.

Edit: still, thanks for the AP suggestion. Wow, ninja'd in my own thread!

Sorry, the line about worshipping the ravenqueen is a requirement for one of the PPs and a feat I mentioned above. As for your scythe, Invokers can use Staves. Staves can be used as weapons... Since there's no damage types for weapons in 4e, who's to say that your +2 Magic Staff isn't a scythe?

Ceaon
2009-12-08, 12:21 PM
Sorry, the line about worshipping the ravenqueen is a requirement for one of the PPs and a feat I mentioned above. As for your scythe, Invokers can use Staves. Staves can be used as weapons... Since there's no damage types for weapons in 4e, who's to say that your +2 Magic Staff isn't a scythe?

I like how you think. :smallamused:

However, I think I'll stay basic and just go Deva Avenger. My thanks to you all.
If anyone still knows of a PP that would work especially well with this theme, and can be found in the PH or PH2, please tell me. Otherwise, I think I'll go... I don't know... Oathsworn?

Yakk
2009-12-08, 12:28 PM
Hybrids can use implements from either class with either classes powers.

So Invoker | Arcane class with Arcane Implement Proficiency can use a scythe for their Invoker powers (or Invoker | Swordmage can do it to start).

A Deva Invoker | Ensnaring Swordmage...

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-08, 12:42 PM
If going warlock, I very much recommend talking your DM into allowing the Arcane Impliment Training feat mentioned above that would allow you to treat heavy-blades as an impliment.

It's not going to trick the character out to hell and back, but would tie it all together nicely for the concept and keep you from basically throwing away wealth for the odd melee basic attack.

One feat, mostly for flavour, outside of the two PHB's shouldn't be too impossible of an ask.

tbarrie
2009-12-08, 12:52 PM
Thanks for your advice, all! I like the Deva; I hadn't considered refluffing them to Death this way. Shadar-Kai could work too, but I can only use the MM version...

I'm all for DMs restricting sources as they see fit, but that just seems really random. You can use the NPC stat block but not the PC stats? How does that make sense?

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-08, 12:58 PM
I'm all for DMs restricting sources as they see fit, but that just seems really random. You can use the NPC stat block but not the PC stats? How does that make sense?

There's a point. Clearly you are obliged to roll up a minotaur and get suitable enjoyment from being allowed to use Large Weapons. Hell, in that scenario, you may even get some decent damage from a scythe! :smallbiggrin: